(U21) Bastion of the Monastery - Evasion shielder (Experiment thread)

[BigErkyKid]

My very first character in DDO was a paladin. Needless to say, it was a complete disaster. After some time, I feel like giving the paladin another try. In this case, this is a semi-flavor build with end game in mind, but I am not sure if it will hold its ground in EE. This tread is meant to be a place for discussion and for me to report how the build plays. Currently it is at level 18.

Goals and constraints of the build

1. This is a tank: as such, it will sacrifice DPS for survivability.

2. Decent DPS: not simply an intimidating punching bag, must do some noticeable damage.

3. Evasion! This is a central part of the experiment is to see to what extend it is possible to create an evading intim tank that has evasion and the flavor of a true tank, in this case coming from the shield. I am sure you can build other kind of tanks which are more effective, but this is a self imposed constraint.

4. High saves: evasion without high reflex is a fail. Saves in general are obviously desirable.

5. Resilient to DDO changes: it cannot depend on any "broken ability" or very narrow set of skills. Building and gearing a character takes time and I am willing to sacrifize power for a long lasting build.

5. Relatively fun to level: some people are capable of getting XP very fast and hence don't mind the lvling process. I tend to be more "inefficient" at it and I don't enjoy playing builds that are not somehow fun all the way to 28.

The general overview

The build split

Right now I am trying a 12 fighter / 6 paladin / 2 monk and PDK iconic.

Paladin provides charisma to saves, sacred defense and divine might. Monk brings evasion and 2 feats and fighter a bunch of feats. The iconic allows you to fast forward it a bit and offers shield deflection as an enhancement instead of a feat. In any case, I think human is the race to go.

I chose monk over rogue because the feats add more than the skill points. 6 paladin instead of simply 2 because it is the required amount for the top tier defensive paladin abilities. The fighter ones are more offensive oriented and perhaps not that nice altogether in epic levels.

I have choosen to give up on heavy armor and hence dump AC and cripple a bit the PRR. The reason is that PRR has highly decreasing returns and AC is regarded as useless in today's end game. However, if AC is redesigned, I think top a lesser heart the build could survive. In addition, evasion will always remain a very good situational defense, specially coupled with high saves.

Abilities

The main abilities of this build are STR, CON, CHA. As secondary ability I have chosen INT. Right now I have gone STR, CON, CHA 16 and INT 14.

Of course it all depends on tome availability. However, it is important to keep in mind that you need enough strength to qualify for overwhelming critical, relatively high constitution for obvious reasons and high CHA to take advantage of divine might and divine grace.

Defense, DPS and gear

DPS Currently using TF tier one dwarxe. It seems superior to other weapons.

Defense: PRR from paladin enhancements, guardian's ring and the shield you choose. I see two routes: tower shield with no dodge or medium shield. The medium shield one might entail playing with the stats to qualify for the feat dodge. That aside, displacement clickies / scrolls and permablur items. Together with a substantial of HP and good heal amp from human and gear, this provides the "tank" part of the build.

Feats

Human (8)
Monk (2)
Figther (7)
Paladin (1) deity based

Provisional choice:

Defensive: combat expertise (just to experiment, will be moved for the eTR), shield mastery, improved shield mastery, mobility, dodge.

Utility: quick draw, magical training (infinite cocoons), skill focus UMD.

Offensive: power attack, cleave, great cleave, improved critical: bludgeoning, improved critical slash (I am aware it is a waste to take both, but I am experimenting different set ups and I don t want to cough up shards every time I change the gear), spring attack, two handed fighting, improved two handed fighting.



(Overwhelming critical, perma haste, bulkward defense)

This thread is under construction, any feedback is welcome but please keep it civil.

Tips on leveling

How to deal with the lack of DPS: If you go the iconic route, you will soon notice that you fall behind in DPS. I don't think it is so incredibly obvious in the earlier mid heroics since you may grab a good weapon and hold your ground OK. Using vorpals is the way to go, IMO. You leverage the survivability of your build to wait on the 20s and in heroics vorpals are effective. Try to have a "good" disruption, banishing, regular vorpal, etc. I don't think there are many other options.

When to switch to outfits in heroics: In end game you will be wearing outfits.In heroics, it is possible to have useful AC and the extra damage reduction of the heavy armor can be nice. My rule of thumb is to switch to outfits at 18 for most of the quests. In any case, armor to outfit is just a simple click.

[Saekee]

Props to the title

[BigErkyKid]

Thanks :)

I am actually going to try to put together a RP/lore introduction to the build. But this is very much in progress still.

[Toro12]

Yeah monk bonus feats are nice and all but you lose just about everything but as soon as you put on that shield.

On top of that I would argue that bluff is arguably far more defense than any other skill you can choose and even more than most feats. Add in deception and improved deception item/weapon there is little else that offers as much defense. Getting a mob to notice you and then immediately turn around is so good I'm tempted to say it is broken.

Besides that I find it way better than intim for drawing the important aggro on a single target. Combine the two and you with a half decent charisma score and as a "tank" the world is yours.

[BigErkyKid]

Yeah monk bonus feats are nice and all but you lose just about everything but as soon as you put on that shield.

On top of that I would argue that bluff is arguably far more defense than any other skill you can choose and even more than most feats. Add in deception and improved deception item/weapon there is little else that offers as much defense. Getting a mob to notice you and then immediately turn around is so good I'm tempted to say it is broken.

Besides that I find it way better than intim for drawing the important aggro on a single target. Combine the two and you with a half decent charisma score and as a "tank" the world is yours.


I am aware you lose almost all the monk has to offer with the shield. However, I wanted a flavor of traditional tank and for me that means shield. I associate the shield to a tank far more than the armor. The feats still seem to come ahead of the skill points and I already have pretty good outfits.

So I have never played with the bluff in that way, but it seems to me that bluff or intim in any case those are ways of getting attention. Ultimately as a tank you want to be able to draw aggro from single targets but also from groups.

In any case, I guess that alternatives to something like this are (1) non evading paladin / fighter tanks , (2) monk tanks, (3) druid tanks.

I see the Bastion of the Monastery in between (1) and (2). With respect to the monk (tank monk build), it might lose some CC (if the monk is in GoF), DPS (by how much?) and shadow veil + dodge bonuses. It will have probably higher PRR and shield based abilities (block energy, shield deflection) and potentially HP. Compared to the more traditional tank, it will lose the AC and some PRR, but I don't think those are that relevant anyway. I don't feel qualified to comment on the druid tank.

Am I missing something here?

[Feithlin]

This is how I did mine:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Nassim
Level 28 Lawful Good Human Male
(12 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 2 Monk \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 552
Spell Points: 193
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 26
Reflex: 16
Will: 13

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 16 26
Dexterity 14 17
Constitution 16 22
Intelligence 10 13
Wisdom 8 11
Charisma 14 17

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 6 23
Bluff 2 11
Concentration 7 18
Diplomacy 2 11
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 14
Heal -1 24
Hide 2 11
Intimidate 2 37
Jump 6 21
Listen -1 8
Move Silently 2 11
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 9
Search 0 9
Spellcraft 0 9
Spot 3 12
Swim 3 16
Tumble 3 12
Use Magic Device 4 22

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 7 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: CON
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Trip


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: CON
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Toughness


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Reflexes


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Human Adaptability: Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Action Surge: Strength (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Overbalance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stand Fast (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Threatening Countenance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Threatening Countenance (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Threatening Countenance (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Shield Striking (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Shield Striking (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Shield Striking (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Inciting Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Inciting Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Inciting Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Hardy Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Hardy Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Hardy Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Swift Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Strong Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Strong Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Strong Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Block and Cut (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Block and Cut (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Block and Cut (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Spiritual Bond (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strike With No Thought (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Power Surge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Improved Dodge (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Hunter of the Dead I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Courage of Heaven (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Holy Bastion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 3)




AP is not set in stone, and there are many options there.
As for feats, I decided to go with tactics, but other options remain: dps feats, allowing for keen edge (kensei tier 5), or more dodge through mobility and spring attack.

*Edit: I hesitated between rogue and monk, but chose the last because of the feats and because I didn't have enough AP to get scroll mastery from rogue, making it pointless.

[BigErkyKid]

This is how I did mine:

.


I wasn't aware there was someone else doing this, thanks for the tip.

As for the feats, I still playing with them. I will most probably lesser TR at some point since this is purely experimental.

In any case, I see you went for 2handed fighting. I want mine to stay consistently as a shielder, so I checking what utilities give me the most or going for dodge + saves.

How does the build do in epics? Or is yours just a pure theory build. I would be interested in first hand experience.

[Cardtrick]

In any case, I see you went for 2handed fighting. I want mine to stay consistently as a shielder, so I checking what utilities give me the most or going for dodge + saves.

2 handed fighting is very useful for a shield build, since it improves the glancing blows you get when wielding a bastard sword or dwarven waraxe alongside a shield. More DPS means a better job of holding aggro.

On the other hand, it would do absolutely no good for your hammer build.

[BigErkyKid]

2 handed fighting is very useful for a shield build, since it improves the glancing blows you get when wielding a bastard sword or dwarven waraxe alongside a shield. More DPS means a better job of holding aggro.

On the other hand, it would do absolutely no good for your hammer build.

I guess I was too abstracted in my hammers...Thanks for the reminder though.

I don't know whether my flavor / I already got them choice would hurt much the DPS. What do you guys think?

[unbongwah]

See my Kundarak Wall for one of my takes on this split. Although truth be told, STR-based human (or PDK) using falchions + b.swords is probably the best way to go. I would suggest investing less into defense and more into offense (i.e., the THF chain); generally speaking, you need all the DPS you can muster in order to hold aggro while S&B.

[BigErkyKid]

See my Kundarak Wall for one of my takes on this split. Although truth be told, STR-based human (or PDK) using falchions + b.swords is probably the best way to go. I would suggest investing less into defense and more into offense (i.e., the THF chain); generally speaking, you need all the DPS you can muster in order to hold aggro while S&B.


Thanks for the reference. I see that you didn't go for charism and instead moved it to CON. I guess that's also part of the dwarf flavor, but don't you give up much in saves? As for the weapon, even with glancing blows, I wonder what the overall result given the superior damage of mornh would be.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/385147-The-Mornhnaught-ultimate-twf-dps

As you will have noticed, I have never ever gone before the shielder route, so I am not that familiar altogether with its mechanics.

[unbongwah]

The biggest advantage to Mornh are the crits, esp. if in LD: IC:Blunt + Pulverizer + Devastating Crit + Overwhelming Crit means 15-18 x3 19-20 x5 crits. Extra perks are Anvil of Thunder for free stuns (which can also proc on doublestrikes) and Stunning +10 if you go for Stunning Blow. The main drawback is you don't get glancing blows while S&B w/hammers; although the silver lining is that means you don't need the THF feats if you plan to go S&B full-time.

[Feithlin]

The main disadvantage I see with going with hammers is that you're stuck into LD. While this is all fine when soloing, it isn't necessarily the best ED for tanking. And outside of LD, your hammer will be far behind a thunder-forged BS or Daxe with glancing blows.

[BigErkyKid]

The biggest advantage to Mornh are the crits, esp. if in LD: IC:Blunt + Pulverizer + Devastating Crit + Overwhelming Crit means 15-18 x3 19-20 x5 crits. Extra perks are Anvil of Thunder for free stuns (which can also proc on doublestrikes) and Stunning +10 if you go for Stunning Blow. The main drawback is you don't get glancing blows while S&B w/hammers; although the silver lining is that means you don't need the THF feats if you plan to go S&B full-time.


The main disadvantage I see with going with hammers is that you're stuck into LD. While this is all fine when soloing, it isn't necessarily the best ED for tanking. And outside of LD, your hammer will be far behind a thunder-forged BS or Daxe with glancing blows.

Regarding Mornh, yup, all the big numbers in this game seem to be coming from crits. So in terms of raw damage as a one handed weapon, it has been argued that it is the best choice. That is good for me, since I like hammers the best. In any case, it would appear that even losing glancing blows it stays competitive. The question would be how to make the most out of the feats that it frees up.

I think that probably the dodge line would be good and I am also a big fan of quick draw and magical training. Also, my experience is that unless you build for it very much, even in a monk DCs for tactical feats won't be high enough. So I would give up on it for further utility. Pumping will saves seems a good option for me. (a special note on UMD, reminder).

As for the destiny, I am not sure. What would be the biggest / most relevant non twistable loss from going LD?

Thanks for the discussion.

[Feithlin]

As for the destiny, I am not sure. What would be the biggest / most relevant non twistable loss from going LD?


Steadfast (US tier 5 core) is used with standing against the tide to become immune to knockdown, for example.

[elcagador]

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

divine tank
Level 28 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Paladin \ 6 Monk \ 12 Favored Soul \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 547
Spell Points: 1144
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 33
Reflex: 32
Will: 26

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 10 12
Dexterity 16 25
Constitution 16 24
Intelligence 10 12
Wisdom 10 12
Charisma 16 23

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Force of Personality
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host


Level 3 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 4 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: CON


Level 5 (Favored Soul)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Lightning Reflexes


Level 7 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Fire


Level 8 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 9 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Favored Soul)


Level 11 (Favored Soul)


Level 12 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: CHA
Feat: (Favored Soul Bonus) Energy Resistance: Electricity
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: CON
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Precision


Level 17 (Favored Soul)


Level 18 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CHA


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Toughness


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Blinding Speed


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Forced Escape
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Human Adaptability: Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Henshin Mystic (Mnk) - Riddle of Fire (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Veil (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Fists of Iron (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Agility (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Agility (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Agility (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sting of the Ninja (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Deadly Exploits (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Deadly Exploits (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - No Mercy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Double (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Protection from Tainted Creatures (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Conditioning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Conditioning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Conditioning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Smite Foe (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Resilience of Battle (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Toughness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Toughness (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Sacred Touch (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Smite Weakness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame: Energy Absorption (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Inflame: Energy Absorption (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Ameliorating Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Holy Bastion (Rank 1)




Why Favored soul ? heal spell, deathward, fom, cure critical wounds, divine scrolls. With the enhancement pass you can combine that powerful spells and abilities with dps enhancements from other classes, in this case Monk ninja spy. This is a dex build (more reflex for evasion) that uses shortswords with twf combat in master of stone stance, ninja spy with shadow veil andd shadow double, shintao with fists of light and warpriest goodies for a dps/tank. (I took warpriest until amelliorating strikes but can take more angel of vengeance enhancements if looking for more fire spell power too).
Also with the new divine crusader destiny meele favored soul gets some nice dps options combining meele damage and fire spell power that can easily get slotted on the sage googles or augment slots for example.

This toon can use both Legendary dreadnough destiny and fury of the wild having heal, ccw, heal scrolls and rejuvenation cocoon for healing ability on EE, can also use divine crusader destiny for grouping support and Sentinel destiny for specific tanking. Also have good Prr, very good saves, decent Hp and dps (can use celestias, rebellion, thunderforged, or any other named shortsword, also can take advantage from improved deception items and fist of light for some dmg mitigation)

[BigErkyKid]

...)

A bit rude.

I just hit epics with this guy, I ll report back and finish the build soon.

[elcagador]

A bit rude.

I just hit epics with this guy, I ll report back and finish the build soon.

Sry man, I was a bit tired and didn't read well your post, I didn't notice you already are at epic levels with your toon, disqualifying your build was not my intention. (Just throwing up another build option in the case you haven't started yet)

About your build I think there is some good advice here, S&B is viable but requires some good investment on gear and epic destinies, for example you can have lots of hitpoints and PRR but without displascement clickies you lose a lot damage mitigation vs non bosses enemies, also spell absortion items as a Pale lavender Ioun stone or jeweled cloak are very useful for tanks (FOT for example), heal amp items as gloves of the claw or pdk gloves or convalescence bracers is very helpful for coccon and other heal efectiveness (I would build for umd since you have good charisma and at epic elite levels cocoon might not be enough for self heal, so having heal scrolls option with good heal amp could be helpful, also for tensers, gh, raise dead, fire shield and other scrolls). Building for dps is important, morhn is a good weapon vs bosses but loses some efectiveness vs waves of enemies because no glancing blow but still should be close to damage and free you of some thf feats. About gear you may want to have both dps and tanking options gear so there is some grinding at epic levels.

As already said here, your build should work good with LD destiny (master blitz mostly) and with Sentinel for specific tanking but in other destinies, especially non martial or primal, your dps will suffer a lot, even on epic hards. I had a stalwart defender s&b fighter/paladin and he is now mainly a kensai Twf that uses some stalwart abilities for Prr and saves because my playstyle found all around dps is more useful than defense. I still can tank raids on Ehard with my twf kensai but haven't tried tough EE tanking because just coccon and renewal just seems not to be enough (probaly even as a S&B, also your dps without blitz, furyshot or cc abilities would not contribute enough on tough EE) and that's why I suggested burst heal as the heal spell at least or reconstruct in the case of forged race for self healing in tough EE tanking.

[BigErkyKid]

Sry man, I was a bit tired and didn't read well your post, .

All good!

Alright, so I have experimeted a bit, now level 23. I have "reasonable" gear around this level and some saved up for later.

So far, survivability seems fine. Even as a level 20 I ran with a group the flagging quests in EE for CITW and as long as I was careful I didn't die. Of course, at that level, the DPS was pitiful.

Now at lvl23 with the Mornh the crits are starting to kick in. Damage is, outside of blitz and in LD, around 250-500 per crit and under 100 otherwise (not using boosts). You crit a "often" but it remains a low damage output.

I guess that they key question of this build was whether a shield added enough defense / survivability to compensate for the loss of a weapon.

An interesting discussion on S/B here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/441082-Sword-and-Board-Needs-Love-A-simple-example

[the_one_dwarfforged]

if you have quick draw i dont see why you would never switch into heavy armor, since that feat means armor switching takes less time.
force of personality on a pally? do you not see that as spending a feat exclusively to gimp yourself since your cha bonus was already going to will save? surely your wis will end up 12 or higher so might as well spend that feat on something better and get the wis to will save...really scratching my head at this. instead you might want to take empower heal for cocoons.
regarding perma haste, not really a fan of it because its so easy to get yourself hasted one way or another. unless you are just taking 12 fighter exclusively for the feats, which i cant imagine being the case, i would get the tactics enhancement and power surge, trade perma haste for tactician and with a mornh, divine might, and the ld tactics enhancement in there you should have an ok stun right there (39 + your str mod, any +5 tactics item you might have, any pls). could trade resilience for stunning blow, if you dont already have it, because while i can see why you want resilience if you use it you wont be able to use momentum swing or lay waste as they require you to be in power attack mode. could be a problem if youre just running in dreadnaught.
when i considered making a build like this i also considered mornh and to me the best way to take advantage of not having the thf feats was to pick up many shot.

as far as giving up on prr:
3 pdk lives: 9 prr
9 divine etr: 27 prr
improved shield mastery: 15 prr
sentinel shield mastery: 15 prr
blue augment, guardian ring, dumathoin bracers: 14, 24, 30 prr
pally tier 5 ability (bastion of light?): 25 prr
wearing heavy armor with full bab: ~30 prr
defender stance: 25 prr
planar prowess set: 15 prr

total: over 170 (53%+ physical dmg reduction). sure it gives diminishing returns, but id call taking 50% less dmg per hit a worth while investment, especially if you want to be a tank.

[unbongwah]

if you have quick draw i dont see why you would never switch into heavy armor, since that feat means armor switching takes less time.
Well, for one thing, switching to hvy armor disables Evasion and reduces your MDB (which is also your max Dodge cap), so the question is: how often is the extra AC & PRR from hvy armor more useful than Evasion + higher Dodge? If this was a dwarf, he could take Dwarf Fortress, which adds +3-7% to S&B dmg while in full plate, but this is a PDK.

force of personality on a pally? do you not see that as spending a feat exclusively to gimp yourself since your cha bonus was already going to will save? surely your wis will end up 12 or higher so might as well spend that feat on something better and get the wis to will save...really scratching my head at this.
You seem to be misunderstanding how it works. FoP substitutes CHA for WIS on Will saves and Div Grace adds your CHA bonus on top of that, essentially giving you a double-CHA bonus to Will. If we presume, say, WIS 12 CHA 30, that's a net gain of +9 Will saves w/FoP. Now, whether that's actually necessary is another matter, but it certainly doesn't gimp his Will saves.

instead you might want to take empower heal for cocoons.
It will also boost Renewal and Light the Dark, so I definitely agree Emp Heal should be in there somewhere. I would drop Lightning Reflexes, Resilience, and Quick Draw for Emp Heal, Imp Shield Bash, and Stunning Blow.

trade perma haste for tactician
Can't: Tactician is an ED feat, not a regular epic feat.

[BigErkyKid]

I had abandoned the thread a bit, I am sorry. This was a very first draft and now that this character sits at 28 I will write down the final set up.

I have given up on mornh for now for a variety of reasons, one of them being that even with LD my computations seem to indicate that it is dominated by TF dwarven axe.

The feats are very much changed but still being subject to changes. Resilience, CHA to will and other less than optimal feats have been dropped.

Finally, I have been trying different destinies and surprisingly, outside of blitz, DC seems to provide higher average damage AND a lot of goodies. So this has become my main questing destiny.

That aside, this build is doing well in EH but is blown to pieces in real EE. That is, upper GH, Wheelon, Storm, etc. The reason being the lack of DPS and the fact that once mobs hit like trucks, your defenses simply can´t hold.

I was very tempted to TR it to try to find a combination of magic and sword to bring dps up, but the devs are bringing a new line of one handed fighting feats so I ll wait to see what I could do.

I have updated the first post with the current set up for feats and I ll slowly fill my gear set up.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Well, for one thing, switching to hvy armor disables Evasion and reduces your MDB (which is also your max Dodge cap), so the question is: how often is the extra AC & PRR from hvy armor more useful than Evasion + higher Dodge? If this was a dwarf, he could take Dwarf Fortress, which adds +3-7% to S&B dmg while in full plate, but this is a PDK.

You seem to be misunderstanding how it works. FoP substitutes CHA for WIS on Will saves and Div Grace adds your CHA bonus on top of that, essentially giving you a double-CHA bonus to Will. If we presume, say, WIS 12 CHA 30, that's a net gain of +9 Will saves w/FoP. Now, whether that's actually necessary is another matter, but it certainly doesn't gimp his Will saves.

It will also boost Renewal and Light the Dark, so I definitely agree Emp Heal should be in there somewhere. I would drop Lightning Reflexes, Resilience, and Quick Draw for Emp Heal, Imp Shield Bash, and Stunning Blow.

Can't: Tactician is an ED feat, not a regular epic feat.

yes, but switching to heavy armor for some situations isnt a bad idea i think, especially if you have quick draw, just makes it easier. i just dont see the point in completely giving up on it.
interesting to hear about force of personality, only ever taken it once i think.
yea...i was just thinking of what he could replace the listed feat with what i thought would be more useful. wasnt really considering what kind of feat they actually were.


Finally, I have been trying different destinies and surprisingly, outside of blitz, DC seems to provide higher average damage AND a lot of goodies. So this has become my main questing destiny.

yea outside of ld there isnt really a dps tree for a tank thats using defensive stances all the time. fury...dstance...shadow dancer?...not on a tank... pretty much just leaves you with dc. lvled it to cap just recently and i think its a great tree, really had a lot of fun running it and i think it offers a good split between defense and offense (dmg buff/hot aura, 10 prr, increased crit range which stacks with kensei, nice damage aura). plus it doesnt rely on an on-kill mechanic...big plus for me generally speaking. i really dont think you will out dps anybody who is blitzing, but maybe thats not what you meant by average damage.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

i have been looking into a build to "tank with" (even if its not possible and i end up just being a snb dps toon...that is cooler than everything else) using the same lvl split, seeing as i am a while away from even attempting it and havent played epics much in the last year perhaps you could give me your thoughts on this build and what has worked for you so far and what has not, using past lives i would have if i tred directly into this (your idea of using pdk to get shield deflection as an enhancement was very nice i thought):

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.20.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

12 ftr 6 pal 2 mnk
Level 28 Lawful Good Purple Dragon Knight Male
(12 Fighter / 6 Paladin / 2 Monk / 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 507
Spell Points: 150

BAB: 19/19/24/29/29
Fortitude: 29
Reflex: 21
Will: 18

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 16 34
Dexterity 14 20
Constitution 16 22
Intelligence 8 14
Wisdom 8 14
Charisma 16 22

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 6
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 14
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 2 15
Bluff 3 16
Concentration 3 16
Diplomacy 3 16
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 17
Heal -1 35
Hide 2 15
Intimidate 7 40
Jump 3 22
Listen -1 12
Move Silently 2 15
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair -1 13
Search -1 13
Spellcraft -1 12
Spot -1 12
Swim 3 22
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 5 20

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Artificer
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Bard
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Druid
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Sorcerer
Feat: (Past Life) Past Liife: Wizard
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 2 (Paladin)
Feat: (Deity) Favored by Amaunator

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Completionist

Level 4 (Paladin)

Level 5 (Paladin)

Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave

Level 7 (Paladin)

Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons

Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Handed Fighting

Level 10 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Deflect Arrows

Level 11 (Fighter)

Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons

Level 13 (Fighter)

Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery

Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword

Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons

Level 17 (Fighter)

Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell

Level 19 (Fighter)

Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Bash

Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical

Level 22 (Epic)

Level 23 (Epic)

Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow

Level 25 (Epic)

Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting

Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Damage Reduction

Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Tactician
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Human Adaptability: Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Action Surge: Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Action Surge: Strength (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Don't Count Me Out (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Don't Count Me Out (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Don't Count Me Out (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Purple Dragon Knight - Shield Deflection (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Spiritual Bond (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strike With No Thought (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Power Surge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Exotic Weapon Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei ((Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Keen Edge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Hunter of the Dead I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Overbalance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Stalwart Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Threatening Countenance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Shield Striking (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Shield Striking (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Shield Striking (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Inciting Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Inciting Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Inciting Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Resilient Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Strong Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Strong Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Strong Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Swift Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Hardy Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Hardy Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Hardy Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)

some quick things: i am a big fan of deflect arrows, guaranteed complete damage removal. one of the most annoying things to me is getting peppered by a ton of archers and this helps with that (better on a tempest but ill take what i can get), and almost completely removes dmg entirely if getting shot at by a single archer.

intended to use bastard swords (personal choice, i like swords better than axes and prefer larger crit ranges to better multipliers and tf weapons seem to favor this).

didnt want to entirely give up on tactics, unless they are proven with this build to be 100% non workable at all. however it seems like that wouldnt be the case, 10 (stun) + 3 (kensei tactics) + 1 (kensei str) + 1 (stalwart str) + 4 (power surge) + 1 (action surge: str, this is activated by power surge for effective +10 str boost with 100% uptime for only 2 additional ap) + 2 (tactician) + 1 (ftr past life) = 23 + str mod (with divine might) + 15 items seems like a good starting point.

[BigErkyKid]

Alright!

I am glad this build is liked.

It is a bit hard to read through your post. Let me just make a few comments.


1. This build was not EE material. A melee based S/B doesn-t seem to cut it, haven-t seen anyone being able to do it.

2. There is a build that combines sword and magic that does way better in end game (somewhere in this thread you can find it)

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/441082-Sword-and-Board-Needs-Love-A-simple-example

3. EE stunning needs DCs over 60 to be worthwile. If you can manage to get around 70-80 STR and have stunning and combat mastery items, sure, go for it. Otherwise I don-t think it will matter much.

4. I packed more healing AMP. You seem to have gone for offensive enhancements, in particular the kensei line.


My personal recommendation would be not to go for this build if you want to play EE. You will have a blast in EH, beyond that, it is just not fun. If you are fine with that, by all means, try it and play with the enhancements to make the most out of it.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

doesnt seem to cut it in what way(s) exactly? like i said i last played ee last life only a bit on a mess of a build and what i took away from that was...hots and displacement coupled with good-non blitzing dps will get you through quests without dying. admittedly mostly ran in semi pugs. other than that pretty much no ee experience in the last year so i am interested in specifics.

from what i understand from others and having lvled 2 different snb toons part way through heroics is that the major failing is the dps. was that your experience also? im assuming it partly was and that is why i would focus much more on dps with a snb build. additionally where ap are concerned personally i heavily favor more dps over a bit of heal amp, between the 10% listed in enhancements and potential past lives and items, i dont think hamp really requires much/any ap investment.

regarding tactics, like i said assuming this build had +15 stun dc from items, and the +23 that was already accounted for, thats a starting point of 38 before accounting for the rest of the str modifier not listed and divine might. just noticed didnt list strong defense (+6 competence bonus to str, +3 dc) so starting at 41 only taking numbers specifically listed in the build and assumed +15 dc items. do you really see the rest of the str mod and divine might not being able to make up the difference?

anyway not yet working on such a build but very interested in trying to make it work, any specifics you can add from your use of the split would be appreciated.

[BigErkyKid]

Well, the lack of DPS is what kills it, mainly.

It is rather simple and unintersting. Outside of blitz, I failed to get enough damage output not to be overwhelmed by the mobs.

In a related thread people have been reporting the AC values needed to be able to compensate for the lack of DPS. It is quite discouraging, even around 180 you don't get a lot of mitigation for your investment.

At the end of the day, if you don't want to wait until next update for the new SWF, I would go in the direction of a cleric / fvs magic and shield.

Traditional S/B builds are dead to me until next update.