What were you thinking with epic rogue hires?

[MangLord]

So my elven ranger is now level 23, and I'm focusing on PDK favor at the moment. Given that I'm a second life ranger, and I missed Wheloon on the way up, I decided to get heroic elite completions on the whole chain. I have epic destiny abilities and can easily purchase a rogue hireling to disable those pesky spell wards, so I should be able to breeze through this no problem, right?

Wrong!

My first foray into the chain was Friends In Low Places. The fighting wasn't that big of a deal, but the traps were a lesson in frustration. How does Cassandra, a level 23 rogue, have difficulty searching for traps? Her spot is entirely hopeless, which I assume was designed for players that know where every trap is. Fine.

By the time I get to Army of Shadow, I just dismissed her and chalked it up to a loss. She can't even search the traps in there, and died on a pressure plate trap in front of a chest behind a secret door. I wouldn't think that a level 23 rogue would need any boosts or heroism to search a trap in a level 18 quest. I was so over it that I just cocooned through the spell wards on the way to the end with a chip on my shoulder.

I have to assume that a player hiring a rogue is interested in one thing only, which is trapping. What on earth were you guys thinking with the woeful showing that is the epic rogue hire? What I want is to park them at the start and bring them along as needed. I don't want them actively fighting and running through traps to obsessively kill some shar worshipper. I feel sorry for anyone expecting them to actually trap and let you know when danger is nearby in an unfamiliar quest. My build doesn't have access to greater heroism, and if they can't trap a lvl 18 quest, how would they be expected to handle something at level? I remember them being better in the past, but it could be my imagination.

Long story short, please make the rogue hires competent at their jobs. No one hires a rogue for added DPS.

[toaftoaf]

the hirelings have not used any skill tombs, i bet money thats what happened

[EllisDee37]

Don't forget to scroll GH on them.

[PsychoBlonde]

This may be a result of the traps pass they did a couple of updates ago (I forget which specifically), but they re-scaled trap levels across the game. Lower level traps are now easier but they get harder faster and the high end is pretty high. Also the scaling on non-epic level 17-20 quests is completely borked. You go INSTANTLY from mobs in level 16 quests being CR 25ish on elite and having around 1k HP to mobs being CR 30+ and having 4k HP. Heroic elite mobs in level 18 non-epic quests have MORE HIT POINTS than EPIC HARD mobs in level 25 quests. So, yeah, the trap scaling is probably similarly borktastic. I suspect this nutzola is a holdover from the days where level 17-20 quests *were* the endgame so Elite had an aggressively ramped-up scaling system. Amrath, House Cannith, Inspired Quarter, and the High Road are just spectacularly out of scale with what you'd logically expect from that level. They're a nightmare on elite if you don't have an epic destiny to use for cheesing your way through.

[Vellrad]

Get a wand of dispel magic, and if you got UMD, scroll of greater dispel magic.

[MangLord]

Yeah, whilst soloing HE wheloon, I was surprised at how difficult the enemies were. They were on par with enemies on EH of the first Eveningstar chain. I didn't check HP, but at least they had poor enough saves that I could get them most of the time with paralyzing arrows.

My UMD is around 19-20, so I can't scroll much besides the basics (Raise dead, restoration, teleport), but I'll have to take a trip to the portable hole to see what my chances are on a GH scroll.

What about a fighter or other skillpoint starved class that might not have UMD at all? I guess you're just screwed.

[EllisDee37]

What about a fighter or other skillpoint starved class that might not have UMD at all? I guess you're just screwed.There are many reasons that UMD is either the first or second most important skill for any class, regardless how many skill points they get. For a fighter I would say it's either the most important by a mile, or just barely edged out by intimidate on an intimitank.

[merridyan]

What about a fighter or other skillpoint starved class that might not have UMD at all?

Put up an LFM?

[Krelar]

Put up an LFM?

Or don't run elite, then you can just run through any traps the hireling can't find.

The level 24 rogue hireling can find most secret doors and disable traps in normal haunted halls so I would guess that he can do any normal quest.

[EllisDee37]

Or don't run elite, then you can just run through any traps the hireling can't find.

The level 24 rogue hireling can find most secret doors and disable traps in normal haunted halls so I would guess that he can do any normal quest.While I agree on this general point, the OP is complaining about running a heroic elite quest around 5 levels below the level of the epic hireling. Any rogue hire absolutely should be able to handle traps when he's that much overlevel.

[Qhualor]

There are many reasons that UMD is either the first or second most important skill for any class, regardless how many skill points they get. For a fighter I would say it's either the most important by a mile, or just barely edged out by intimidate on an intimitank.

if you are an intimitank than you could probably spare the points for a cross class skill since you would need 13 Int, but for other fighters there is no point in allocating points for a stat that has no other benefit than more skill points when you only really need a few. just assume run Amrath for Draconic necklace, try to farm for Cipher or check the AH to buy one. get into epics and you can just twist for self sufficiency without having to switch out weapon for scrolls while fighting and get more benefit than a fighter could from scrolls too.

[Violith]

While I agree on this general point, the OP is complaining about running a heroic elite quest around 5 levels below the level of the epic hireling. Any rogue hire absolutely should be able to handle traps when he's that much overlevel.

Its not that the rogue couldnt handle it, its that the spot message is small to trust it with hirelings. by the time your see the message, your already in the trap.

as for the chest he is talking about, you cant fully disable that trap. there is a trap box on one side, and the chest on the other, however the blades behind the chest arent disabled. the trap box only disables the traps from the wall infront of the chest.

[EllisDee37]

if you are an intimitank than you could probably spare the points for a cross class skill since you would need 13 Int, but for other fighters there is no point in allocating points for a stat that has no other benefit than more skill points when you only really need a few. just assume run Amrath for Draconic necklace, try to farm for Cipher or check the AH to buy one. get into epics and you can just twist for self sufficiency without having to switch out weapon for scrolls while fighting and get more benefit than a fighter could from scrolls too.You get two skill points per level no matter what. That lets you maximize UMD plus one other skill. What two skills are both better than UMD for a fighter? I can't even think of one.

[FranOhmsford]

You get two skill points per level no matter what. That lets you maximize UMD plus one other skill. What two skills are both better than UMD for a fighter? I can't even think of one.

Don't forget 5 pts in Jump!

1 pt in Tumble!

And Spot is always nice!

[FranOhmsford]

OP if doing Heroic quests get the Lvl 20 Rogue Hireling - Sullivan Tiehl - He's a High Int Assassin with good trap skills.
OR
The Lvl 21 Rogue Hireling - Lilo Blackstitch - She has Skill Boost II!

The Lvl 23 Rogue Hireling - Cassandra - is a Rogue Acrobat and NOT a TRAPPER!

[Qhualor]

You get two skill points per level no matter what. That lets you maximize UMD plus one other skill. What two skills are both better than UMD for a fighter? I can't even think of one.

balance, heal is good now, no points in jump while leveling can get you into the low 20s in epic levels, I like spot but listen is a good sub on all my melees to see hidden mobs.

if you put points into umd on an int dumped fighter you are looking at around a 20 umd by level 20. while doing so you aren't able to maximize the other skills, but if you have tomes you can eventually put a few points into them by mid levels and on. like I said, you get more benefit by twisting cocoon instead of heavily investing to get umd up for heal scrolls, but if you aren't doing that than a 20ish umd will be sufficient for basic stuff. even so, rather just use clickies that are minimally easy enough to get in the game.

at character creation, every race gets 8 skill points except horc which gets 4 with no investment in Int. points are tight for fighters unless you do allocate points into the stat.

[FranOhmsford]

balance, heal is good now, no points in jump while leveling can get you into the low 20s in epic levels, I like spot but listen is a good sub on all my melees to see hidden mobs.

if you put points into umd on an int dumped fighter you are looking at around a 20 umd by level 20. while doing so you aren't able to maximize the other skills, but if you have tomes you can eventually put a few points into them by mid levels and on. like I said, you get more benefit by twisting cocoon instead of heavily investing to get umd up for heal scrolls, but if you aren't doing that than a 20ish umd will be sufficient for basic stuff. even so, rather just use clickies that are minimally easy enough to get in the game.

at character creation, every race gets 8 skill points except horc which gets 4 with no investment in Int. points are tight for fighters unless you do allocate points into the stat.

Assuming a Base Charisma of 10 {unlikely to be any higher on a Pure Fighter and could easily be lower!} how are you getting 20 UMD at Lvl 20 exactly?

Even if you slot a +8 Wheloon Charisma item that's still only 18 or +4 which added to the 11.5 Skill Points {You've probably used that .5 on Tumble or Swim but whatever} is 15.5!


And the Elephant in the room is that UMD is expected much earlier than Lvl 20 in-game.

What does someone have to do to get 75% Heal Scrolls on a Pure Fighter at let's say Lvl 18 {elite Vale}?
Never mind that it has been expected at Heroic Sands levels for years now!

[Qhualor]

Assuming a Base Charisma of 10 {unlikely to be any higher on a Pure Fighter and could easily be lower!} how are you getting 20 UMD at Lvl 20 exactly?

Even if you slot a +8 Wheloon Charisma item that's still only 18 or +4 which added to the 11.5 Skill Points {You've probably used that .5 on Tumble or Swim but whatever} is 15.5!


And the Elephant in the room is that UMD is expected much earlier than Lvl 20 in-game.

What does someone have to do to get 75% Heal Scrolls on a Pure Fighter at let's say Lvl 18 {elite Vale}?
Never mind that it has been expected at Heroic Sands levels for years now!

actually, I think you are right. its been a long time since I played my fighter so I was going off memory and figured better to guesstimate high than too low.

[Krelar]

Assuming a Base Charisma of 10 {unlikely to be any higher on a Pure Fighter and could easily be lower!} how are you getting 20 UMD at Lvl 20 exactly?

Even if you slot a +8 Wheloon Charisma item that's still only 18 or +4 which added to the 11.5 Skill Points {You've probably used that .5 on Tumble or Swim but whatever} is 15.5!


And the Elephant in the room is that UMD is expected much earlier than Lvl 20 in-game.

What does someone have to do to get 75% Heal Scrolls on a Pure Fighter at let's say Lvl 18 {elite Vale}?
Never mind that it has been expected at Heroic Sands levels for years now!

As far as the first part is concerned.

+1 from +2 CHA ship buffs
+1 from a +2 CHA tome
+1 from Good Luck (voice of the master)
+2 Heroism Pot (not even greater just regular, they can be bought from vendors for cheap)

That gets you to 20 UMD with things that are still easy to acquire.

[Cardtrick]

What does someone have to do to get 75% Heal Scrolls on a Pure Fighter at let's say Lvl 18 {elite Vale}?
Never mind that it has been expected at Heroic Sands levels for years now!

It is very difficult.

I don't think it can be done on a first life character, at least without giving up too many other useful things. People shouldn't expect first life characters without UMD as a class skill to be capable of using heal scrolls in the heroic levels.

Even on a TR, it's tough. My wanna-be-completionist-project is pretty well stocked with old gear, and he still has trouble. Without talking about the CHA modifier, at level 18 you can pretty reasonably have 10 ranks, +3 Competence from a drafted Persuasion item (or Golden Cartouche or Flameward or whatever), +4 morale from GH, +6 exceptional CHA skills from greensteel (thus the requirement to be a TR), +2 luck from Head of Good Fortune. Many of us also have +1 Profane from a Spider Mask . . . but unfortunately that's no longer available to players who weren't around to preorder MOTU. So before CHA modifier, you're talking about sustainable 25 or 26 UMD if you've got most of the relevant gear.

Then for CHA -- you said to start at base 10. Add +3 from tomes (literally anyone can have +3 now, due to the anniversary cards). +8 item from Wheloon. + 2 insight and + 1 exceptional from greensteel swap item (a +9 CHA one-handed weapon is one of the first green steel items I make on any character, usually right after their HP item) That puts you at 24 CHA, which is a mod of 7. So you're at 32 or 33 UMD, depending on whether or not you have a spider mask.

Most people get an additional +1 from the 2 CHA ship buff, although I don't.

Then there are more difficult/exotic ways to boost it further -- a Litany for profane CHA, +4 CHA tome, obviously a UMD skill tome. And there are non-sustainable ways -- skill boosts, potions (Yugo to boost CHA or House D to boost CHA skills).

Basically, it's possible to get Heal scrolls to a 75%+ success rate at level 18 on a fighter starting at 10 CHA. But it takes a lot of investment and so many swap items that it's really not practical.

At those levels, on characters that don't have UMD as a class skill or a really high CHA for other reasons, I just try to be able to cast Greater Heroism with a reasonable level of success. I'm a GH addict. I don't mind having to swap a bunch of items and use a skillboost for a 13 minute buff that will last the duration of most quests, and I also don't mind failing a couple of them (unlike Heal scrolls, where I'd rather just not rely on them if I don't have close to no-fail success rates).

[nibel]

You get two skill points per level no matter what.

Wrong.

If you are a non-human fighter, and start with Int 8, you will get a single skill point per level.

[FranOhmsford]

actually, I think you are right. its been a long time since I played my fighter so I was going off memory and figured better to guesstimate high than too low.

This is my issue in a nutshell.

For years now these Forums have made out that UMD is a must have and that it's "Easy" to get "No Fail" Raise Dead {which I believe is only 2 pts lower than Heal and the same as GH!} Scrolls at Heroic levels!

By Guesstimating on the High Side you're making it out to be easier than it truly is.




As far as the first part is concerned.

+1 from +2 CHA ship buffs
+1 from a +2 CHA tome
+1 from Good Luck (voice of the master)
+2 Heroism Pot (not even greater just regular, they can be bought from vendors for cheap)

That gets you to 20 UMD with things that are still easy to acquire.


Temporarily and only until you die.

Does Voice stack with House P Ship Buff now btw?



It is very difficult.

I don't think it can be done on a first life character, at least without giving up too many other useful things. People shouldn't expect first life characters without UMD as a class skill to be capable of using heal scrolls in the heroic levels.

Even on a TR, it's tough. My wanna-be-completionist-project is pretty well stocked with old gear, and he still has trouble. Without talking about the CHA modifier, at level 18 you can pretty reasonably have 10 ranks, +3 Competence from a drafted Persuasion item (or Golden Cartouche or Flameward or whatever), +4 morale from GH, +6 exceptional CHA skills from greensteel (thus the requirement to be a TR), +2 luck from Head of Good Fortune. Many of us also have +1 Profane from a Spider Mask . . . but unfortunately that's no longer available to players who weren't around to preorder MOTU. So before CHA modifier, you're talking about sustainable 25 or 26 UMD if you've got most of the relevant gear.

Then for CHA -- you said to start at base 10. Add +3 from tomes (literally anyone can have +3 now, due to the anniversary cards). +8 item from Wheloon. + 2 insight and + 1 exceptional from greensteel swap item (a +9 CHA one-handed weapon is one of the first green steel items I make on any character, usually right after their HP item) That puts you at 24 CHA, which is a mod of 7. So you're at 32 or 33 UMD, depending on whether or not you have a spider mask.

Most people get an additional +1 from the 2 CHA ship buff, although I don't.

Then there are more difficult/exotic ways to boost it further -- a Litany for profane CHA, +4 CHA tome, obviously a UMD skill tome. And there are non-sustainable ways -- skill boosts, potions (Yugo to boost CHA or House D to boost CHA skills).

Basically, it's possible to get Heal scrolls to a 75%+ success rate at level 18 on a fighter starting at 10 CHA. But it takes a lot of investment and so many swap items that it's really not practical.

At those levels, on characters that don't have UMD as a class skill or a really high CHA for other reasons, I just try to be able to cast Greater Heroism with a reasonable level of success. I'm a GH addict. I don't mind having to swap a bunch of items and use a skillboost for a 13 minute buff that will last the duration of most quests, and I also don't mind failing a couple of them (unlike Heal scrolls, where I'd rather just not rely on them if I don't have close to no-fail success rates).

The problem is that people in this thread have been stating that 20 UMD is easy to get and 20 UMD is what? 5% chance on Heal Scrolls, 10% on Raise Dead or GH?

20 UMD may be viable for a Lvl 20 1st lifer with easy to get gear BUT it is in no way useful for that 1st lifer unless they've also got a bunch of other not so easy to get gear incl. Swap Ins.

What do you consider a reasonable success rate by the way for GH Scrolls?
50%, 65%?, 80%?

Honestly GH scrolls ain't cheap and I'd be personally very stingy about using them without at least a 90% chance of success considering my luck with the Dice in this game.

The GH Pots that are becoming steadily more available are a godsend but again I try not to overuse them as I don't want to run out {and I save them for my Rogues/Artis anyway!}.

[Cardtrick]

The problem is that people in this thread have been stating that 20 UMD is easy to get and 20 UMD is what? 5% chance on Heal Scrolls, 10% on Raise Dead or GH?

20 UMD may be viable for a Lvl 20 1st lifer with easy to get gear BUT it is in no way useful for that 1st lifer unless they've also got a bunch of other not so easy to get gear incl. Swap Ins.

20 is pretty easy. But you're right that it's not that useful.

The real milestone I try to hit by Vale on my non-rogue characters is 90% success with Fire Shield scrolls. Being able to scroll Fire Shield:Cold is a huge deal for survivability in quests like Enter the Kobold and Shroud.


What do you consider a reasonable success rate by the way for GH Scrolls?
50%, 65%?, 80%?

50% before using anything temporary. Then a potion of regular heroism gets me to 60%. I almost always have Skill Boost (I usually go human and always invest enough into the cores to get Skill Boost until I hit enough UMD not to need it). I use one boost at the beginning of every quest to get my GH running. That bumps me up to 80%. Rarely does it take more than 1 or 2 scrolls.

Then, re-casting without Skill Boost is a 70% chance, as long as I do it before the GH runs out.


Honestly GH scrolls ain't cheap and I'd be personally very stingy about using them without at least a 90% chance of success considering my luck with the Dice in this game.

Eh, I'm never worried about money. Any quest at those levels earns enough cash to pay for a few scrolls, and realistically there's usually something that can be sold on the AH for more. I sell a lot of my collectables. I make at least 2 million plat on every heroic TR life (although I spend most of that on GH Scrolls, True Seeing scrolls, and stacks of Haste potions). My biggest expense by far is haste potions. I use 50-100 of them per hour of questing.


The GH Pots that are becoming steadily more available are a godsend but again I try not to overuse them as I don't want to run out {and I save them for my Rogues/Artis anyway!}.

Why on earth would you use them on a rogue or artificer?! I can't imagine anything more wasteful.

All the above discussion about UMD being hard to get was for characters without rogue/arti levels. It's easy to get no-fail GH and Heal scrolls if you have rogue levels, and even easier if you have arti levels.

[Wipey]

Well, byoh thread "in progress", about time for new UMD one :D

Hey newbies, get UMD on every character it's super useful or even necessary.

Hey "vets" if you choose to ignore the UMD or after years of playing don't have Planar Girds and charisma skills GS for some reason, at least don't post such nonsense.

Every good toon scrolls their own GH ( yeah in Deathwyrm, you have to have scrolls unless you wanna carry 10 Planar Girds ), TS, Fire Shield, Tenser, Resurrection ( this one is very important when Raise Dead is risky).
Heal scrolls, Greater Resto scrolls, Elemental Weapons.

Yeah if you have important role, there you go, extended GH.
But if you are a Legend and asks for every **** thing which you can get yourself, then learn to play.

Watch those kick ass barbarians videos (even BARBARIANS ) they scroll their own buffs so cut the excuse bs.

[FranOhmsford]

Why on earth would you use them on a rogue or artificer?! I can't imagine anything more wasteful.

All the above discussion about UMD being hard to get was for characters without rogue/arti levels. It's easy to get no-fail GH and Heal scrolls if you have rogue levels, and even easier if you have arti levels.

To save plat!

And inventory space!

GH Pots and a Gird {which I also give to my Rogues/Artis} are generally a better option than Scrolls.

And for 1st life Rogues 37 UMD is also NOT easy to get pre Epic!

I generally have more than enough Disable to get No Fail no matter what lvl I'm at but I never take it for granted and save my skill boosts for traps {no way would I waste one on UMD unless it was for a desperately needed Raise Dead!}.


BUT I must now say this - The above is my personal choice - I also have made another personal choice long ago NOT to farm Shroud till my eyes bled!
I'm not just saying these things for my own benefit - I'm trying to help Newbies and Casuals by getting certain people on these forums to understand that just because they have everything needed to get "No Fail" Heal Scrolls at Lvl 13 doesn't mean a 1st Lifer is likely to be anywhere near that even at Lvl 20!


It's very easy for you to list Greensteel etc. But it's a long long road before a Newer player {or a Casual player} will have that item.
Especially when most likely he/she will go for the Lit II or the ConcOpp first!


Myself - I'm an altoholic who has 40+ characters to level and kit out - I'm always going to be way behind the curve!

[Cardtrick]

It's very easy for you to list Greensteel etc. But it's a long long road before a Newer player {or a Casual player} will have that item.
Especially when most likely he/she will go for the Lit II or the ConcOpp first!


Myself - I'm an altoholic who has 40+ characters to level and kit out - I'm always going to be way behind the curve!

Yup, that's the difference. I occasionally run an alt for a change of pace, but usually if I want to try something different, I just TR one of my two main characters. Plus, I genuinely enjoy a Shroud run every couple of days, even though it's easy. It's pretty relaxing, everyone's usually laid back in chat, and it feels productive when I don't feel like doing something tougher. So having a bit of green steel on the characters I actually play isn't a big deal.

[PsychoBlonde]

As far as the first part is concerned.

+1 from +2 CHA ship buffs
+1 from a +2 CHA tome
+1 from Good Luck (voice of the master)
+2 Heroism Pot (not even greater just regular, they can be bought from vendors for cheap)

That gets you to 20 UMD with things that are still easy to acquire.

Actually, you can do *much* better than this (on a multi-lifer, although that's mostly required to get the shroud item, everything else mostly costs time and/or money)

+3 UMD tome (expensive, yeah)
+6 shroud item
+3 Treasure Hunter's Spyglass
+3 Spare Hand
+2 Good Luck (easily gotten on a blue augment)
+3 completionist
+4 Greater Heroism (planar gird or pots that can be gotten from a variety of sources)
+2 from +4 or better tome
+3 cha item
+2 ship buffs (+cha and phiarlan + skills buff)
+1 MOTU pre-order mask
----
+32 from bonuses alone--+31 with an 8 base cha. So you need a grand total of SEVEN ranks to be 100% on heal scrolls and GH. Only ONE of those bonuses requires you to be level 20 to get (the treasure hunter's spyglass--it only stacks on the level 20 fully upgraded version). So, if you care to do it, you can be around 85% with heal scrolls at, like, level 12.

ANYWAY the scaling on 17-20 quests on elite is still whack.

[Jeromio]

I don't get it why people use rogue hires.

Why not dual-box instead? When soloing, I have a human bard/rogue (lvl 18/2) that gives my main very useful buffs, can handle all traps/locks, blesses the chests and gives a lot of extra loot to my main (plus additional renown for the guild). Also, hires cannot join raids if you should fancy solo those.

The only drawbacks are that you might have to invest a few extra TP, and it takes a bit of extra time doing quests.

[cupajoe]

Actually, you can do *much* better than this (on a multi-lifer, although that's mostly required to get the shroud item, everything else mostly costs time and/or money)

+3 UMD tome (expensive, yeah)
+6 shroud item
+3 Treasure Hunter's Spyglass
+3 Spare Hand
+2 Good Luck (easily gotten on a blue augment)
+3 completionist
+4 Greater Heroism (planar gird or pots that can be gotten from a variety of sources)
+2 from +4 or better tome
+3 cha item
+2 ship buffs (+cha and phiarlan + skills buff)
+1 MOTU pre-order mask
----
+32 from bonuses alone--+31 with an 8 base cha. So you need a grand total of SEVEN ranks to be 100% on heal scrolls and GH. Only ONE of those bonuses requires you to be level 20 to get (the treasure hunter's spyglass--it only stacks on the level 20 fully upgraded version). So, if you care to do it, you can be around 85% with heal scrolls at, like, level 12.

ANYWAY the scaling on 17-20 quests on elite is still whack.

The store bought bunny hat gives a +3 UMD bonus (I think it's +3). It isn't in the description. You must hold a scroll or wand to get the bonus. It can be the same bonus type as the spyglass (enhancement I think). I don't recall which version (tier) of the spyglass has the same bonus type but it is possible to upgrade the spyglass to a different UMD bonus type. Again you must equip a scroll or wand see the bonus.

[unbongwah]

I don't get it why people use rogue hires.

Why not dual-box instead?
An extra player adds more level-scaling than a hire does; not everyone has a setup conducive to dual-boxing; not everyone wants to pay for an alt account, esp. if their primary is VIP.

[Cardtrick]

An extra player adds more level-scaling than a hire does; not everyone has a setup conducive to dual-boxing; not everyone wants to pay for an alt account, esp. if their primary is VIP.

Plus your hire will follow happily along behind you or stay put and come when called. An alt account won't, since DDO doesn't have any auto follow mechanic. I hear about people multi-boxing 5 alt accounts at once and I can't imagine the tedium.

[Krelar]

Plus your hire will follow happily along behind you or stay put and come when called. An alt account won't, since DDO doesn't have any auto follow mechanic. I hear about people multi-boxing 5 alt accounts at once and I can't imagine the tedium.

I'm pretty sure those people kill off the alts at the beggining and carry the stones through the quest only raising them to loot chests. Not as useful a strategy if you want one to open locks/disabel traps though.

[Cardtrick]

I'm pretty sure those people kill off the alts at the beggining and carry the stones through the quest only raising them to loot chests. Not as useful a strategy if you want one to open locks/disabel traps though.

I'm sure that's true, but still . . . even just walking them to the quest entrances would be more than I could bear. I have one alt account that I just use for opening a few specific things, and I still don't bother with it most of the time. I have fairly low tolerance for repetition.

[Jeromio]

An extra player adds more level-scaling than a hire does; not everyone has a setup conducive to dual-boxing; not everyone wants to pay for an alt account, esp. if their primary is VIP.

Scaling is +0.5 with a boxer compared to a hireling... not much more to handle. Also, you can kill of the alt and carry him in your pocket, if it's a long quest (with some ressing for traps if necessary). Another option, if not looking for xp for the alt, is to logout him out after quest entry, and re-log when trapping/chest blessing/looting.
Yes, it requires a computer that can handle it, but the requirements are not high. My rig is 7 years old, with 4 GB RAM, and it handles two clients without any problem.
It probably requires a bit of investment, but you'll get quite far with the free TP from favor plus you save TP on not having to buy store rogue hirelings or other stuff from the store.

Personally, I think the biggest disadvantage is that it takes precious gaming time to run around with the alt. I really wish that Turbine implemented a follow-function. :)

[EllisDee37]

Another option, if not looking for xp for the alt, is to logout him out after quest entry, and re-log when trapping/chest blessing/looting.You get full xp for and no scaling from the dual-box alt if you have it enter the quest at the start, log it out of the game, then log it back in right before you complete the quest.

[Ivan_Milic]

The store bought bunny hat gives a +3 UMD bonus (I think it's +3). It isn't in the description. You must hold a scroll or wand to get the bonus. It can be the same bonus type as the spyglass (enhancement I think). I don't recall which version (tier) of the spyglass has the same bonus type but it is possible to upgrade the spyglass to a different UMD bonus type. Again you must equip a scroll or wand see the bonus.

Bunny hat doesnt stack with spare hand, and it shouldnt stack with spyglass either, because they are all competence bonus.
Only full upgraded spyglass is enhancement bonus.

[Jeromio]

You get full xp for and no scaling from the dual-box alt if you have it enter the quest at the start, log it out of the game, then log it back in right before you complete the quest.

Quest XP yes, but not hefty optional bonuses like in e.g. Wizking and VON3.

Still, I don't notice much scaling with just one box-account, so I usually just let the alt pike. I suppose it might be different if having 5 box accounts. :)

[EllisDee37]

Quest XP yes, but not hefty optional bonuses like in e.g. Wizking and VON3.While true, it's likely irrelevant because the dual-box account is almost certainly a first life doing an elite streak, meaning it throws away much of the xp it gets anyway just by virtue of the (level+2)-1 rolling xp cap.

[Ivan_Milic]

Quest XP yes, but not hefty optional bonuses like in e.g. Wizking and VON3.

Still, I don't notice much scaling with just one box-account, so I usually just let the alt pike. I suppose it might be different if having 5 box accounts. :)

On heroics its not a big deal.
But on ee, add just 1 player, mobs hp go up by 500 to 1k, maybe more, depends on quest.

[Forgeborn]

What does someone have to do to get 75% Heal Scrolls on a Pure Fighter at let's say Lvl 18 {elite Vale}?
Never mind that it has been expected at Heroic Sands levels for years now!

target for 75% chance is a UMD of +34, I'll be assuming level 18 then, with only things you can bring yourself

Charisma score: 24, for a +7 modifier
8 base, neither a penalty not a bonus from race
up to 4 tome
up to 7 enhancement from heroic elite stolen necklace (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Stolen_Necklace), +8 items start at level 19 with the heroic sage's ring (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sage%27s_Ring_%28Level_19%29)
up to 1 exceptional from either a ToD ring (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tower_of_Despair_loot_%28alternate_view%29) or shroud weapon (http://ddowiki.com/page/Green_Steel_items)
up to 2 insightful from either a ToD ring upgrade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Incredible_Potential), or shroud weapon (http://ddowiki.com/page/Green_Steel_items)
up to 2 artifact from shipbuff

for UMD: +39
10 from ranks (21 points spend, total rank 10.5)
7 from charisma modifier (see above)
6 exceptional from shroud crafted accessory (http://ddowiki.com/page/Green_Steel_items)
5 competence from an item (seven fingered gloves (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Seven_Fingered_Gloves) from awaken the titan)
4 Morale from greater heroism (Draconic necklace (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Draconic_Necklace) from Amrath, planar gird (http://ddowiki.com/page/Planar_Gird) belt, or Potions available from assorted turn ins)
3 inherent from a +3 UMD tome
2 from good luck (head of good fortune (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Head_of_Good_Fortune), or a Cannith crafted item (http://ddowiki.com/page/Cannith_Crafting))
1 profane to skills (Spider cult mask (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Spider_Cult_Mask), or Elite spider cult mask (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Elite_Spider_Cult_Mask))
1 enhancement (the big top (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:The_Big_Top))

You can add an additional: 18
+4 profane bonus to charisma from the Abishai Destroyer (http://ddowiki.com/page/Abishai_Destroyer) buff
+3 short term alchemical charisma buff from Potion of influence (http://ddowiki.com/page/Potion_of_Influence)
+3 short term "action boost: charisma" if you feel like it and are either human, or PDK
+2 charisma for being a completionist

+4 short term "Action boost: skills" action boost bonus from either human, PDK, or half elf
+3 for having 3 artificer past lives
+3 short term alchemical charisma skill boost from Potion of eagle's skill (http://ddowiki.com/page/Potion_of_Eagle%27s_Skill)
+2 to all skills for being a completionist

which would add up to a +57 UMD for like 20 seconds since the +3 deneith pots have durations of 30 seconds if memory serves, not really functional, but you could in theory cast 9th level scrolls with that (UMD difficulty on 9th level wiz/sorc/cleric/fvs scrolls is 52)

What you 'can' expect of any level 18 fighter: +19
10 ranks
3 charisma modifier (16 charisma total, 8 base + 2 tome + 6 item)
3 competence from persuasion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Persuasion) or Golden Cartouche (http://ddowiki.com/page/Golden_Cartouche)
2 morale from a heroism potion
1 good luck from voice of the master (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Voice_of_the_Master) or crafted

Possibilities for heroic sands levels (assuming level 12):
22 (8 base, 3 tome, 6 item, 2 ship, 1 exceptional, 2 insightful) cha + 7 ranks + 6 exceptional + 5 competence + 4 morale + 3 inherent + 2 good luck + 1 profane + 1 enhancement = +35 on a second lifer that really cares. or up to 18 higher on someone that wants to be silly.

UMD DC's of note:
DC 24: invisibility
DC 28: displacement
DC 32: Fire shield, Dimension door, enervation, lesser Globe of Invulnerability
DC 36: raise dead, elemental weapons
DC 40: Heal, greater heroism, reconstruct, tenser's transformation, Globe of Invulnerability
DC 44: resurrection
DC 52: True resurrection, energy drain, power word: kill

[Llewndyn]

This is my issue in a nutshell.

For years now these Forums have made out that UMD is a must have and that it's "Easy" to get "No Fail" Raise Dead {which I believe is only 2 pts lower than Heal and the same as GH!} Scrolls at Heroic levels!

By Guesstimating on the High Side you're making it out to be easier than it truly is.






Temporarily and only until you die.

Does Voice stack with House P Ship Buff now btw?




The problem is that people in this thread have been stating that 20 UMD is easy to get and 20 UMD is what? 5% chance on Heal Scrolls, 10% on Raise Dead or GH?

20 UMD may be viable for a Lvl 20 1st lifer with easy to get gear BUT it is in no way useful for that 1st lifer unless they've also got a bunch of other not so easy to get gear incl. Swap Ins.

What do you consider a reasonable success rate by the way for GH Scrolls?
50%, 65%?, 80%?

Honestly GH scrolls ain't cheap and I'd be personally very stingy about using them without at least a 90% chance of success considering my luck with the Dice in this game.

The GH Pots that are becoming steadily more available are a godsend but again I try not to overuse them as I don't want to run out {and I save them for my Rogues/Artis anyway!}.

Mentioning that anything is hard to get in this game is the same thing as saying you need help running quests!

GS items are tough to get. How many Shroud LFMs do you see on your server?
+3 tomes are easy to get, if you:
a) got REALLY lucky on rolls and got the right cards
b) have the plat or worthy items to trade for them
c) didn't use them on OTHER things that are more useful

Not everyone has a +2 CHA shrine on their ship, and on Ghallanda there's a nice number of high level guilds that won't let you on theirs, so you kind of have to just luck out there (there are plenty that DO let you on, just noting I wouldn't count that as a given)

On my melees, I get Jump and either Intimidate or Listen, usually... and I'm usually very picky about spending points on cross class skills.
I've yet to get a skill tome for UMD, I'm not even sure they exist though they probably do.

I'm not saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to be able to UMD scrolls, but I don't bother getting a scroll until I have an 85% chance or higher of it going off, as Fram said I roll way to many 1s and 2s and that's just a waste of plat.
As to OP, I've long held out that hirelings are specifically coded to make DDO store purchases more enticing... if you ever drop below 25% health, they don't heal you (if it's a divine). They don't stay put (any of them), and yes, I've taken a level 19 rogue into a hard Sane Asylum run, hit him with GH, and had him not be able to see the dang trap box. Even if it's a thief acrobat, a rogue should be able to trap. NO one gets a hireling to add to DPS, (although Fullmetal, the WF paladin, is pretty cool) and SELLING you a hireling that is a waste of space just seems like more of a slap in the face.

[FranOhmsford]

target for 75% chance is a UMD of +34, I'll be assuming level 18 then, with only things you can bring yourself

Charisma score: 24, for a +7 modifier
8 base, neither a penalty not a bonus from race
up to 4 tome
up to 7 enhancement from heroic elite stolen necklace, +8 items start at level 19 with the sage's ring
up to 1 exceptional from either ToD ring or shroud weapon
up to 2 insightful from either ToD ring upgrade, or shroud weapon
up to 2 artifact from shipbuff

for UMD: +39
10 from ranks (21 points spend, total rank 10.5)
7 from charisma modifier (see above)
6 exceptional from shroud crafted accessory
5 competence from an item (seven fingered gloves from awaken the titan)
4 Morale from greater heroism (Draconic necklace from Amrath, planar gird belt, or Potions available from assorted turn ins)
3 inherent from a +3 charisma tome
2 from good luck (head of good fortune, or crafted item)
1 profane to all skills (or just cha skills if you had the cheaper bundle, Spider cult mask)
1 enhancement (the big top)

You can add an additional: 16
+3 short term charisma buff potion obtainable in house deneith
+3 short term "action boost: charisma" if you feel like it and are either human, or PDK
+2 charisma for being a completionist

+4 short term racial skill boost from either human, PDK, or half elf
+3 for having 3 artificer past lives
+3 short term charisma skill boost potion obtainable in house deneith
+2 to all skills for being a completionist

which would add up to a +55 UMD for like 20 seconds since the +3 deneith pots have durations of 30 seconds if memory serves, not really functional, but you could in theory cast 9th level scrolls with that (UMD difficulty on 9th level wiz/sorc/cleric/fvs scrolls is 52)

What you 'can' expect of any level 18 fighter: +19
10 ranks
3 charisma modifier (16 charisma total, 8 base + 2 tome + 6 item)
3 competence from persuasion or crafted
2 morale from a heroism potion
1 good luck from voice of the master or crafted

for heroic sands levels (assuming level 12):
19 (8 base, 3 tome, 6 item, 2 ship) cha + 7 ranks + 6 exceptional + 5 competence + 4 morale + 3 inherent + 1 good luck + 1 profane + 1 enhancement = +32 on a second lifer that really cares. or 16 higher on a completionist that wants to be silly.

UMD DC's of note:
DC 24: invisibility
DC 28: displacement
DC 32: Fire shield, Dimension door, enervation, lesser Globe of Invulnerability
DC 36: raise dead, elemental weapons
DC 40: Heal, greater heroism, reconstruct, tenser's transformation, Globe of Invulnerability
DC 44: resurrection
DC 52: True resurrection, energy drain, power word: kill


Thanks for doing this but just a couple of questions:

1) Can you actually have all the various items on that you've listed scores for at the same time?

2) are you talking about the "Profane" Bonus from the Chrono Set? Surely people aren't wearing that at Lvl 12 on TR Lives OR at Lvl 18 on a 1st Life for that matter?



19 UMD at Lvl 18 1st Life seems like it's easy enough to come by - These days I think you can probably expect that in a group that player would also have +1 from Ship Buffs {IF the Phiarlan Ship Buff stacks properly that is} and can get a GH cast on them from someone in group if they don't have a Pot.
So I'll say again - Why are people expecting Raise Dead and Heal Scroll use from someone with a UMD in the Low 20s at most?

[Cardtrick]

So I'll say again - Why are people expecting Raise Dead and Heal Scroll use from someone with a UMD in the Low 20s at most?

Who are these "people" you're talking about? Do you mean forum users posting build threads? Or people in game complaining that you can't self-cast Heal?

I do expect any character I myself create to have enough UMD for these scrolls by the time I'm in epics, unless they have some other solid form of self healing. (Even then, I want enough for Raise Dead, Teleport, and Fire Shield.) I'm willing to make sacrifices to do that -- whether it be splashing rogue/arti levels or investing in CHA even at the expense of STR/DEX/CON.

I don't expect that others do the same.

I guess I do pretty much expect anyone at high level to be able to raise at least one person if things really fall apart. But a tier 2 Shroud clicky can cover that if they don't want to bother with UMD.

I would like to say I expect everyone to be able to self-cast fire shield from scrolls, but it seems like no one ever does. I always seem to be the only one covered in blue flames when fighting Harry (although nowadays with all the epic abilities and absorption items, it's less of a big deal).

[Forgeborn]

Actually, I skipped a few things in what you quoted, so I'll add them in in a moment.


Thanks for doing this but just a couple of questions:

1) Can you actually have all the various items on that you've listed scores for at the same time?

Each of the items in the set ups can be used in combination with every other one, the only clashing that might happen is if you happen to make the +6 exceptional charisma skills in a slot that has something else in it:
For the charisma: Off-hand weapon slot (if using a GS weapon) OR ring (if using a ToD ring), and necklace

For the UMD: Gloves (seven fingered) + trinket OR any slot(head of good fortune or flexible crafted good luck +2 item) + helmet (the big top) + cosmetic helmet (Elite or standard spider cult mask) + any accessory or clothing slot (+6 exceptional charisma skills greensteel item)



2) are you talking about the "Profane" Bonus from the Chrono Set? Surely people aren't wearing that at Lvl 12 on TR Lives OR at Lvl 18 on a 1st Life for that matter?

I am not, there's only a handful of effects that are typed as profane that matter for UMD, specifically

1: The Abishai Destroyer buff (+4 profane bonus to all mental stats), which is obtained when eating all 5 of the abishai cookies in a row, I had not counted this one, because it relies on rare consumables only obtainable during events. The full ****** UMD completionist with 3 arti past lives could in theory get up to +57 UMD if they would use this, or up to 52 at level 12

2: The Litany of the dead (+1 profane to all stats, both physical and mental), however, this one is a trinket, so prior to level 20 one would be required to have a crafted item for good luck +2 (a flexible shard is required, a non-flexible only goes on trinkets, flex on close to every slot), I had not included this one in my previous numbers since it requires one to run accursed ascension, and would at most add another 1 UMD if you can get another +1 stacking charisma from somewhere else, however, and since it doesn't stack with the abishai destroyer buff

3: The Spider cult mask, and the elite spider cult mask, both of which are cosmetic items with a clickable effect, the clickable effect gives you a +1 profane bonus to charisma skills (for the standard spider cult mask) or a +1 profane bonus to all skills (for the elite spider cult mask), both also give a bonus to saves against poison.

The profane you are most likely referring to is the one that I scribbled down for the heroic sands one, which would refer to the spider cult mask or elite spider cult mask buff.




19 UMD at Lvl 18 1st Life seems like it's easy enough to come by - These days I think you can probably expect that in a group that player would also have +1 from Ship Buffs {IF the Phiarlan Ship Buff stacks properly that is} and can get a GH cast on them from someone in group if they don't have a Pot.
So I'll say again - Why are people expecting Raise Dead and Heal Scroll use from someone with a UMD in the Low 20s at most?
The phiarlan buff was changed from it's old luck bonus to a morale bonus, it won't stack with either a standard heroism potion (which I had counted for the +19), or greater heroism, the charisma buff wasn't counted since some people don't have a high enough ship to have it, or an interest/desire to get said buffs.

Most people here don't say that, for myself I try to do what I can, while limiting my use of swapping to around 2 items. I only 'expect' those with actual rogue, bard, or artificer levels AND a hero or legend build to have sufficient levels of UMD to be able to UMD raise scrolls around level 12, and heal around 16. (them actually having those scrolls with them.... that's a whole different story, so ultimately I don't rely on anyone except a divine caster to be able to raise me or another person if death occurs.)