Stealthy player "Assassinate" question

[Nayus]

Hi, I'm going to TR one of my toons (or rather, I should have TR'd it 2 weeks ago) into a pure stealth toon, planning to sneak through level 1 to 28 playing Elite only (maybe Epic Hards... but Epic Elite would be more desirable).

When looking for possible flaws I realized Assassinate will break my stealth AND aggro the monster when it fails, what may be exceedingly dangerous in a dungeon where maybe not even a single mob has been killed, I could easily get a DA and fail the quest.

How reliably can I Assassinate mobs with max-int and +4 tome? I'm seriously considering giving up on Assassinate if I'm not confident I can use it.

[bruener]

Hi, I'm going to TR one of my toons (or rather, I should have TR'd it 2 weeks ago) into a pure stealth toon, planning to sneak through level 1 to 28 playing Elite only (maybe Epic Hards... but Epic Elite would be more desirable).

When looking for possible flaws I realized Assassinate will break my stealth AND aggro the monster when it fails, what may be exceedingly dangerous in a dungeon where maybe not even a single mob has been killed, I could easily get a DA and fail the quest.

How reliably can I Assassinate mobs with max-int and +4 tome? I'm seriously considering giving up on Assassinate if I'm not confident I can use it.

With a max int rogue build assassinate works in EH very reliably. I have zero issue doing that even in off destinies. EE is a different story. You will be able to do it but it won't be near as reliable. Even with a major dedication to gear it won't be 100% in EE. The difference between EH and EE is HUGE.

[Satyriasys]

Depends on the EE. I wouldn't try it in Stormhorns but it works reliably in most of them if built correctly.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Hi, I'm going to TR one of my toons (or rather, I should have TR'd it 2 weeks ago) into a pure stealth toon, planning to sneak through level 1 to 28 playing Elite only (maybe Epic Hards... but Epic Elite would be more desirable).

When looking for possible flaws I realized Assassinate will break my stealth AND aggro the monster when it fails, what may be exceedingly dangerous in a dungeon where maybe not even a single mob has been killed, I could easily get a DA and fail the quest.

How reliably can I Assassinate mobs with max-int and +4 tome? I'm seriously considering giving up on Assassinate if I'm not confident I can use it.

Failed assassinate does not break stealth. It only gives the targeted mob an idea about your existance and current location and that mob starts making a swing. You are free to move (still in stealth) and if you are fast enough, you can evade the initial swing. After that, he will be looking for you but should not know your exact location, you can drag it to a quiet place and dispose of it.

In situations where things go south, i find shadowdancer's dimension door invaluable ability to flee when detected by a bunch of mobs. If planing on going other destiny, consider human and dragonmarks.

[Nayus]

So, if I'm understanding it correctly:

Heroics easily work in 80~95%.
Epic Hards work 80~95%? (or more like 70~80%?)
Epic Elites work half the time?

And failed Assassinate attempts don't break stealth but the monster will know I'm there? Will it activate friends, gongs, traps or does it work like Bluff?

[Saekee]

So, if I'm understanding it correctly:

Heroics easily work in 80~95%.
Epic Hards work 80~95%? (or more like 70~80%?)
Epic Elites work half the time?

And failed Assassinate attempts don't break stealth but the monster will know I'm there? Will it activate friends, gongs, traps or does it work like Bluff?

Like PrimalConcretesledge wrote, it does not break stealth. I believe that only the monster you whacked becomes aware. It does not work like bluff. Remember that even if it fails, you still do a big chunk of sneak damage to it. Even if you get in a fight with a mob, if 1) the others around it do not see you (you are at their side or behind them, out of sight) and 2) you do not move from where you are standing, you can still war it out. Even as the two of you are bashing away at each other, strangely, the mobs around you will not know about it. They will hear your footfalls if you move but not the fighting...

I recommend the Sap feat for failed assassinates. Assuming it is one-on-one, you can Sap them--they are automatically knocked out (not helpless or anything, just immobilized) and the cooldown on Sap is long enough to try assassinate again (go into Stealth, bluff and try again). If your assassinate fails again, just Sap them again and keep trying...

Lots of stuff has been written about stealth techniques; I assume you are acquainted with it?

[Nayus]

I read the couple of stealth guides I could find here in the forums, but never tried a proper assassin or ninja build.

Now what you are saying is... .___. fantastic. So if there were 3 mobs lined up looking North and I could make one of them look and walk a couple of steps towards South then even if my Assassinate failed I could still battle it out with the monster without being noticed for as long as I stay still? O__O I was aware monsters couldn't hear sound effects (except steps and breakables) for some reason but that's a little harsh.

[Saekee]

I read the couple of stealth guides I could find here in the forums, but never tried a proper assassin or ninja build.

Now what you are saying is... .___. fantastic. So if there were 3 mobs lined up looking North and I could make one of them look and walk a couple of steps towards South then even if my Assassinate failed I could still battle it out with the monster without being noticed for as long as I stay still? O__O I was aware monsters couldn't hear sound effects (except steps and breakables) for some reason but that's a little harsh.

yes--experiment with this and you'll see that it is totally bizarre. Shouldn't function like this, but it does. Their line of sight is the arc in front of them, so if you are at their side or behind them, you are effectively invisible--so long as you do not footstep forward. You can beat the living daylights out of their armored buddy right next to them with metal swords etc. and have him scream out as he collapses like a sack of potatoes, but they still will not hear you. Just stay in the same spot. This can be a problem if you cannot reach them with your equipped weapon--some mobs jump backwards or around. If you step forward to get them, that little pitter-patter of your feet will alert the others.

[TeacherSyn]

yes--experiment with this and you'll see that it is totally bizarre. Shouldn't function like this, but it does. Their line of sight is the arc in front of them, so if you are at their side or behind them, you are effectively invisible--so long as you do not footstep forward. You can beat the living daylights out of their armored buddy right next to them with metal swords etc. and have him scream out as he collapses like a sack of potatoes, but they still will not hear you. Just stay in the same spot. This can be a problem if you cannot reach them with your equipped weapon--some mobs jump backwards or around. If you step forward to get them, that little pitter-patter of your feet will alert the others.

Concur with Saekee. I've used this behavior to assassinate with my Ninja Spies. The monster's own sounds, be it their cries or bodies hitting the floor, don't attract. Spells might be noticed. And if you're within a body length of others, even if out of their visual arc, sometimes something you do will get noticed, but this less frequent.

Here's my take on stealth tactics from my Monk guide (https://sites.google.com/site/bookofsyn/the-power-of-shadow). You should be able to adapt any of it to what Rogues can do.

[CThruTheEgo]

So, if I'm understanding it correctly:

Heroics easily work in 80~95%.
Epic Hards work 80~95%? (or more like 70~80%?)
Epic Elites work half the time?

EE results are very dependent on individual mobs. If you get an assassinate DC of 70 or so it will work 95% on weak fort mobs (e.g. casters, archers), but about half on higher fort mobs (e.g. front line melees, divines). On EH 70 DC will basically be no-fail. And a build that's going to end up with a 70 DC will basically be no-fail throughout heroics.

Check out Hassan's Assassin in my sig if you're looking for a build.

[Nayus]

Thank you everyone, it was very helpful.

My best regards.

[Shadow_Jumper]

Three builds I would recommend considering taking insight from as you build your assassin:

1) Melkor's Max INT Assassin: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/350693-Master-Assassin-an-int-based-build?highlight=master+int

2) Hassan's Assassin: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/424338-Hassan-s-Assassin

3) The Shadow Assassin: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/433981-The-Shadow-Assassin-A-Halfling-Assassin

All are good end game EE competent assassin builds, each specializing in a different race, Drow, Human, and Halfling. Drow will give the higher DC for your assassinate, Human is a good middle ground to build off of, and Halfling gives more DPS to the table


Cheers and good luck on your TR!

[ReaperAlexEU]

just to add to the failed assassination attempt, shadow form lets you do a full back flip tumble while stealthed which is perfect for getting out of insta-detect range. not sure if that's WAI (stealth is supposed to give a large penalty to tumble) but i can tumble about like a nutter when in stealth and shadow form, yet out of shadow form while stealthed i can only do the normal roll, not the flips.

after a back flip i'm normally far enough away for the epic elite mob to have no clue where i am and go back to standing there like a goon in short order.

love the sap advice though, sounds a lot better than a shadow form back flip if you have space for the feat :)

[blerkington]

Hi,

The last set of Lammania release notes for u22 mention upcoming "improvements" to monster AI.

* Monster AI has been adjusted to improve the ability of enemies to detect players, and to improve game performance (particularly in regard to aggro and when damaged.)

I suspect this has something to do with how easy it is move around and kill trash mobs with a ranged weapon outside of their detection distance.

Hopefully whatever changes they make have been thoroughly tested and don't make assassination less useful.

Thanks.

[era42]

The effectiveness of your assassinate depends a lot on playstyle, even more than your DC. Let me explain.

I had an (almost) max-DC assassin, and most of the party situations maybe 20-30% assassinates failed, and another 20-30% of double-assassinates failed on the second assassinate.

First problem, the big one. If you have any special damage on the weapon, ninja-poison, pure good, whatever, annoyingly often you start assassinate by doing a bit of damage, then you get the message 'incorrect stance' and the assassinate fails due to the weapon damage breaking stealth ahead of time. This was the assassinate-killer for me. This seemed to happen alot when you assassinate monster right as you move close, but see other two issues:

Second problem, in a fast-moving party it's not rare that a stray arrow hits you, breaking stealth as you try to approach your opponent. This is avoidable, and only slightly annoying. Forces you to take longer route to mobs, giving you less time to position though.

Third problem, you stealth next to a mob, mob notices your partymember and runs off just as you click, assassinate fails due to not having targets in reach. Again, avoidable, but compounds the first problem.

None of these can be helped by better DC. When soloing or in a careful party these issues are rare, if you take a second or two to stand still behind the mob, no problem. But in a fast-paced party situations the failures due to environment were common. The moving monsters was slightly annoying, but when you stealth to a mob, click assassinate immediately (to get it done before monster runs off) just to have the assassinate fail due to sneak vanishing, that was just too annoying. And it happened a lot.

If you plan on doing quest the sneaky way, go for it. For that assassinate is awesome. It's easier to kill a mob and keep moving than to try to distract it off the route. Assassinate supplements the sneaky tactics alot. But, in a party situation it's not nearly as nice. Still a good way to kill stuff fast, just too frustrating to my taste due to the non-dc related failures.

[CThruTheEgo]

First problem, the big one. If you have any special damage on the weapon, ninja-poison, pure good, whatever, annoyingly often you start assassinate by doing a bit of damage, then you get the message 'incorrect stance' and the assassinate fails due to the weapon damage breaking stealth ahead of time. This was the assassinate-killer for me. This seemed to happen alot when you assassinate monster right as you move close, but see other two issues:

It was venomed blades that was doing this most recently, but it has been fixed and is no longer an issue. As far as I know there are currently no other damage affects that break stealth and bork assassinates because of it. Occassionally these pop up but they are usually fixed relatively quickly.

You are right about the other "obstacles" to assassinating, but as you mentioned they are a playstyle issue. Anticipating mob behaviour is key to managing the difficulties you mentioned, and they become a non-issue once you can do that, but not everyone wants to play that way. Being a sneaky assassin is not a playstyle that suits everyone.

[era42]

It was venomed blades that was doing this most recently, but it has been fixed and is no longer an issue. As far as I know there are currently no other damage affects that break stealth and bork assassinates because of it. Occassionally these pop up but they are usually fixed relatively quickly.

Venomed blades was a 100% failure when monster wasn't aggroed on somebody else. But, those failures happened even after unlearning that talent.

Now, I'm not sure if the other similar issues were fixed when venomed blade was addressed, but certainly there were other issues with it. Most clear example is the double-assassinate with offhand attack. First attempt succeeds, the second fails due to incorrect stance (ie. no sneak). Thus, sneak ended somewhere between clicking assassinate and the assassinate landing. It happened often enough on both first and second assassinates that I ended up permanently resolving the issue with a TR.

[ReaperAlexEU]

once i turned of venomed blades my assassinate success flew through the roof and double kills (with a single dagger, it's not linked to TWF) became quite common. well, once i'd trained my fingers to do the correct thing, many a time i'd be shadow humping a caster with my repeater in my hand, or worse standing there like a barbarian mashing the assassinate button and wondering why it wasn't working because i'd not hit stealth. turns out if you need to weapon swap before you assassinate you need to do that before you hit sneak or the weapon will be put on a cooldown preventing you from swapping to it in rapid succession. i also had a bit of learning to do with regards to how close i could get, botched quite a few by bumping into the mob giving them an auto-detect on me. attacking on the move helps with this as you get a much longer reach to compensate for potential lag.

so other than my own blunderings and the odd stray arrow i'm not sure what problems you had once venomed blades was turned off and subsequently patched. i guess cleaving mobs would have messed your day up if they went active due to other party members just as you were letting rip with assassinate.

you are right about the party though, but one trick is to leap at the mob, hit sneak in mid air then assassinate when you land (assuming you're not jumping into arrow fire of course). this can help you keep up as while you may still need to flank a bit you can do that at full run speed. when i was farming for my EMG i'd often go in on elite and start soloing with a PUG up. so i got to know blood and tide very well and found some favourite places to try the double kill. a lot of that was just learning where the mobs would be and where the players were likely to zerg then plot a course for where the clash would be (or the juicy casters at the back). it really did work a charm and while i had a high DC it was not maxed (no epic feats or top tier destiny investment in INT)

shame you TRed out of it, maybe something to give another go later down the line when you fancy another change of gameplay

[CThruTheEgo]

Venomed blades was a 100% failure when monster wasn't aggroed on somebody else. But, those failures happened even after unlearning that talent.

Now, I'm not sure if the other similar issues were fixed when venomed blade was addressed, but certainly there were other issues with it. Most clear example is the double-assassinate with offhand attack. First attempt succeeds, the second fails due to incorrect stance (ie. no sneak). Thus, sneak ended somewhere between clicking assassinate and the assassinate landing. It happened often enough on both first and second assassinates that I ended up permanently resolving the issue with a TR.

Venomed blades was fixed in a patch a while ago. It does not interfere with assassinate anymore. I can confirm this.

Regarding your second problem, my guess is that you were attacked and that is what broke your sneak. I've not had any problems with a first assassinate breaking sneak, nor have I heard of anyone else having this problem. I can also confirm that I have gotten double assassinates without issue.

ReaperAlexEU gave some good suggestions for adjusting playstyle.