Terrible news

[Singular]

From Update 21 Patch 1:

"Fury of the Wild
Boulder Toss is no longer considered a spell (which means that it can be used in an Antimagic Field), and no longer benefits from Spell Power. The damage has been increased."

Since most of our builds incorporate Boulder Toss b/c of our force spell power, this change will effectively lower our dps by 10-20% and reduce our ability to do EE.

[Daitengu]

Makes perfect sense. Why should throwing a boulder be a spell? Its not from a spellcasting ed.

[Singular]

Makes perfect sense. Why should throwing a boulder be a spell? Its not from a spellcasting ed.

This is a game about high fantasy. My 12 str artie can toss a boulder - clearly, not an objective description of reality. Boulder Toss in an Epic Destiny is part of the power of reaching demigod-like status. It has nothing to do with being strong enough to pick up a boulder that only a giant could hold and throw it with incredible force toward your enemy.

The simple fact that nerfing Boulder Toss to uselessness for everyone - melee and casters combined, for no melee is going to bother interrupting their attack to throw a tiny amount of damage - equates to ruining force specked artificer builds. No one who runs EE content is going to bother with BT after the change. Arties who incorporated BT b/c of the synergy w/force simply won't be viable after this ridiculous, thoughtless nerf.

If they were really going to make Boulder Toss "real" then it should be entirely based around str. It's not. It's just a thoughtless nerf to uselessness for everyone.

[Qhualor]

Like someone else pointed out, if it was Conjure Boulder I could understand. But this is Boulder Toss where you pick up a boulder and throw it. Spell power should never had any affect on it in the first place. I don't understand why people aren't getting this.

[Kawai]

Like someone else pointed out, if it was Conjure Boulder I could understand. But this is Boulder Toss where you pick up a boulder and throw it. Spell power should never had any affect on it in the first place. I don't understand why people aren't getting this.

Agreed.
and since theyre taking liberties, & moving things up & down the Eds, and moving them back & forth...
Boulder should b Tier IV minimum. if not V.
...and should require Str 50. :P
but ohhh well.

[Miow]

Like someone else pointed out, if it was Conjure Boulder I could understand. But this is Boulder Toss where you pick up a boulder and throw it. Spell power should never had any affect on it in the first place. I don't understand why people aren't getting this.

Yep they are just fixing a mistake, adding strength bonuses isn't a bad idea though.

[Cardtrick]

If they were really going to make Boulder Toss "real" then it should be entirely based around str. It's not. It's just a thoughtless nerf to uselessness for everyone.

Yup. Boulder Toss's damage should be affected by strength modifier, and it should have a Knockdown chance with a DC based on strength. It's cooldown should be increased. It should work as a good situational ranged option for high-strength melees who don't go the monkcher or manyshot routes.

However, a new twistable ability should be added to some destiny that functions similarly to the old Boulder Toss, affected by force spell power. Just give it a different name and visual for flavor. It was nice having a non-Shirardi epic ability for force casters.

[Vellrad]

Like someone else pointed out, if it was Conjure Boulder I could understand. But this is Boulder Toss where you pick up a boulder and throw it. Spell power should never had any affect on it in the first place. I don't understand why people aren't getting this.

If you're strong barb you rip boulder from the ground and throw it with power of your muscles. You should add strenght to damage.

If you're puny little wizard, you don't even touch the boulder. You rip it from the ground telekinetically and hurl it at your target with the power of your mind. So you add spellpower to damage.

[Ancient]

Like someone else pointed out, if it was Conjure Boulder I could understand. But this is Boulder Toss where you pick up a boulder and throw it. Spell power should never had any affect on it in the first place. I don't understand why people aren't getting this.

Because they are looking at game balance and you are looking at descriptions. There are very few caster splashable SLA, and even less that do EE level of damage and use force spell power.

The only one I'm aware of has a description that would have the exact same problem you had with boulder.

I would have preferred they change the description, but I know that was not an option because the archers would revolt if they had to share part of their destiny with casters (although the reverse is expected).

[Ancient]

If you're strong barb you rip boulder from the ground and throw it with power of your muscles. You should add strenght to damage.

If you're puny little wizard, you don't even touch the boulder. You rip it from the ground telekinetically and hurl it at your target with the power of your mind. So you add spellpower to damage.

It would be great if they would add the old one back to some other destiny.

[Qhualor]

If you're strong barb you rip boulder from the ground and throw it with power of your muscles. You should add strenght to damage.

If you're puny little wizard, you don't even touch the boulder. You rip it from the ground telekinetically and hurl it at your target with the power of your mind. So you add spellpower to damage.

Than I should be able to use spell power to add to my barbs weapon damage also.

A wizard picking up a boulder with telekenisis would have to cast a spell first to do it. Is there such a spell in DDO?

[Qhualor]

Because they are looking at game balance and you are looking at descriptions. There are very few caster splashable SLA, and even less that do EE level of damage and use force spell power.

The only one I'm aware of has a description that would have the exact same problem you had with boulder.

I would have preferred they change the description, but I know that was not an option because the archers would revolt if they had to share part of their destiny with casters (although the reverse is expected).

So I should be reading between the lines and not what the description of the ED says? Kinda hard not to mistake picking up a boulder and throwing it and misreading that.

[merridyan]

I imagine this change is in response to another thread about beholder's anti magic field being changed. There was some arguments going on about why is "Boulder toss" considered a spell and blocked by beholder's anti magic field. So now they fixed this, it is no longer a spell and can be used against beholders effectively.

[Ancient]

So I should be reading between the lines and not what the description of the ED says? Kinda hard not to mistake picking up a boulder and throwing it and misreading that.

I didn't tell you what you should or should not do... so the answer to your question is No. I did tell you what their perspective was so you could understand what they are coming from. If you had no interest in understanding then next time, don't ask "why"... just have your lil rant and move along.

[Ancient]

Than I should be able to use spell power to add to my barbs weapon damage also.

A wizard picking up a boulder with telekenisis would have to cast a spell first to do it. Is there such a spell in DDO?

Ice storm, meteor storm and splinterbolt all involve physical damage directed at an opponent. I assure you that changing a spell description is less work than coding the spell itself.

[Singular]

Like someone else pointed out, if it was Conjure Boulder I could understand. But this is Boulder Toss where you pick up a boulder and throw it. Spell power should never had any affect on it in the first place. I don't understand why people aren't getting this.

My artie has 12 str. Up until now, I could use my magic to pick up a piece of rock and, imbuing it with force, hurl it at my enemies for massive damage.

So what you're saying is that suddenly I, with a peasant's muscle, can pick up a boulder before only thrown by giants, and toss it into enemies but cannot imbue it with my magic???

Hint: this isn't a game modelling real life Qualor. No real life physics are involved and no one, in real life, can toss a boulder tens of feet at a dragon to cause it harm. Guess what? Dragons don't exist. This is high fantasy and the devs are destroying an integral part of artificer dps.

I cannot understand why you don't get that.

[Singular]

If you're strong barb you rip boulder from the ground and throw it with power of your muscles. You should add strenght to damage.

If you're puny little wizard, you don't even touch the boulder. You rip it from the ground telekinetically and hurl it at your target with the power of your mind. So you add spellpower to damage.

Exactly. Well said.

In a perfect world, Devs would then come up with "Hurl Boulder" or "Conjure Boulder." Sadly, we both know they will not. Arties are going to take a dps loss here and I don't know how we are going to recover.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Take ruin, problem solved. It also doesn't have the annoying habit of failing because a one inch rise in terrain between caster and target somehow shatters it, midair.

[Singular]

It would be great if they would add the old one back to some other destiny.

Since they are intent on s*rewing us over, yes, they should give us a replacement.


Than I should be able to use spell power to add to my barbs weapon damage also.

A wizard picking up a boulder with telekenisis would have to cast a spell first to do it. Is there such a spell in DDO?

1. You already have that ability via the Ruby Eyes - their damage output increases via spell power and crit chance. Slot spell power and your fire damage from inferno is increased. If you're EK, you'll do higher damage than non-spell casting melee.

2. Yes, the wizard is casting 'boulder toss.' - was casting 'boulder toss.' Now they are apparently picking up a boulder and hurling it better than any Olympian could, despite their pathetic str and BAB, better than any melee weapon they wield, all without spell power - albeit, with much, much less damage than they did previously, with magic.

The change is nonsensical and damaging. It helps no class, no one, and hurts all artificers. It's thoughtless.

[Ancient]

Take ruin, problem solved. It also doesn't have the annoying habit of failing because a one inch rise in terrain between caster and target somehow shatters it, midair.

I missed the part in the update notes where ruin was adjusted to a reasonable casting cost.

[Singular]

Take ruin, problem solved. It also doesn't have the annoying habit of failing because a one inch rise in terrain between caster and target somehow shatters it, midair.

Ruin, as I noted, is extremely mana intensive. It costs a ridiculous amount of sp. Yes, it's great. No, it's not a Boulder Toss replacement. Ruin has always been an emergency spell for arties - an "oh, ****, die!!!" spell.

Arties simply do not have the spell point pool to cast Ruin to be equal of BT (of present and soon to be old).

[Cardtrick]

1. You already have that ability via the Ruby Eyes - their damage output increases via spell power and crit chance. Slot spell power and your fire damage from inferno is increased. If you're EK, you'll do higher damage than non-spell casting melee.

Er . . . what?

Is this true? If so, it seems insanely powerful.

[Livmo]

There are allot of neato arguments in this thread. Heh, I was working on getting a 4th twist to add BT back into my play style. As an arty I could pump out some serious damage with it ina sequence of mouse clicks. When I'm not ERTing I run in Fury of the Wild allot. I use the others as well at times.

I'm OK with the change, because it gives the barbs some love and makes sense. I'm sad, but OK.

It would be cool if arties got an ED of their own. With the Enhancement pass we lost some spell power which caused me to rely more on BT. I will remain hopeful that DDO will come around and give us arties some love too.

Maybe we can get back some love from DDO with a 3rd Enhancement Tree if its too much to give us a ED?

I'm thankful that we can now teleport to House Cannith.

[avepepix]

Dont be so harsh, the post seems more to a pvp than a bad news to spellcasters.

Its true that boulder toss teme, begins with beholder antimagic field. A DM in pnp can let a player do a boulder toss with no problem, and in secretly remove the "spell points boost damage" but not the phisical damage. But DDO cant do that.
So the question begins "Boulder Toss its magic or not?" and someone says "Why it has to be magic if its an hability from a barb? The barb dont have magic" they look each other and say "Do you have right the barb dont have magic, so it cant apply spell power to that"

What are all of you arguing its another thing. It's more like "Oh noooo I lose a huge buff that i should never have had, but as a magician I should add spell power to All"
Outside DDO theres a point, but no in the game. So a Fighter that walk the pat of Draconic should add his fighter lvls to "Go out with a bang"

[Timap]

Pity. I always thought that Boulder Toss was a good thematic fit with the Earth Savant that I play.
On the bright side, it appears that this change is not live yet, because I'm still doing 2-2.5k per toss as of 1 hr ago.
Also, if your force spellpower is <200, the change would be a boost. Many non-force specced casters have force spellpower around 200 anyway.

[Ancient]

What are all of you arguing its another thing. It's more like "Oh noooo I lose a huge buff that i should never have had, but as a magician I should add spell power to All"
Outside DDO theres a point, but no in the game. So a Fighter that walk the pat of Draconic should add his fighter lvls to "Go out with a bang"

I'm not into lore/descriptions/rp drama. I don't care what they call it, or what the spell description is. It could be pretty-pony attack and shoot rainbow skittles.

What I care about is playing the game, having fun and balance. The balance issue is that they are giving a new SLA in the divine tree... it is teir 5, costs mana and has a base damage of... 90. Turbine does a poor job at trying to maintain balance.

[Livmo]

Pity. I always thought that Boulder Toss was a good thematic fit with the Earth Savant that I play.
On the bright side, it appears that this change is not live yet, because I'm still doing 2-2.5k per toss as of 1 hr ago.
Also, if your force spellpower is <200, the change would be a boost. Many non-force specced casters have force spellpower around 200 anyway.

I crafted a force scepter for this with Kinetic Lore 5 and put a red augment in it to boost force spell power. The other scepter I used with this was the EE Crystaline Scepter. Lightening Sphere, Tactical Detonation, and Boulder Toss was a nice combo. I have a few other combos for BT as well. I still may try and get the 4th twist for BT anyway.

[Qhualor]

Since they are intent on s*rewing us over, yes, they should give us a replacement.



1. You already have that ability via the Ruby Eyes - their damage output increases via spell power and crit chance. Slot spell power and your fire damage from inferno is increased. If you're EK, you'll do higher damage than non-spell casting melee.

2. Yes, the wizard is casting 'boulder toss.' - was casting 'boulder toss.' Now they are apparently picking up a boulder and hurling it better than any Olympian could, despite their pathetic str and BAB, better than any melee weapon they wield, all without spell power - albeit, with much, much less damage than they did previously, with magic.

The change is nonsensical and damaging. It helps no class, no one, and hurts all artificers. It's thoughtless.

So we are comparing a augment slot with a 2% chance to proc that deals much less damage than an artificer using spell power and Boulder Toss? Lol

[avepepix]

I'm not into lore/descriptions/rp drama. I don't care what they call it, or what the spell description is. It could be pretty-pony attack and shoot rainbow skittles.

What I care about is playing the game, having fun and balance. The balance issue is that they are giving a new SLA in the divine tree... it is teir 5, costs mana and has a base damage of... 90. Turbine does a poor job at trying to maintain balance.

We all love balance, and i think turbine too, except error/omision.
I can say the balance problems begin when they nerfed the bard... I still complain about the stalwart defender, but yesterday i stand against an horde in thunder and survive, so its not so bad balanced the game.
Some classes have better love than another yes, but this its a game, and we all need its to get fun, if a bugged semi inmortal fight by my side, i'll not complain =D

[Enoach]

See I always thought of it in different terms of actually picking up a boulder and tossing it and in my minds eye saw this as the ability to reach down and will the ground to give up a boulder.

Low Strength characters tossing something along the lines of a Small boulder Approximately 12 inches in diameter which s the minimum size to be classified as a boulder in the science of geology

Mid Strength characters tossing something along the lines of a mid size boulder

High strength characters tossing something along the lines of a large size boulder

While this doesn't effect the damage of this ability (and maybe it should) it is still how I saw it.

[Lonnbeimnech]

See I always thought of it in different terms of actually picking up a boulder and tossing it and in my minds eye saw this as the ability to reach down and will the ground to give up a boulder.

Low Strength characters tossing something along the lines of a Small boulder Approximately 12 inches in diameter which s the minimum size to be classified as a boulder in the science of geology

Mid Strength characters tossing something along the lines of a mid size boulder

High strength characters tossing something along the lines of a large size boulder

While this doesn't effect the damage of this ability (and maybe it should) it is still how I saw it.

I saw it as jamming your open hands, fingers first, into solid ground and ripping up a section large enough to be considered a boulder and then throwing it 200 yards. Godlike strength.

[Irongutz2000]

This is a game about high fantasy. My 12 str artie can toss a boulder - clearly, not an objective description of reality. Boulder Toss in an Epic Destiny is part of the power of reaching demigod-like status. It has nothing to do with being strong enough to pick up a boulder that only a giant could hold and throw it with incredible force toward your enemy.

The simple fact that nerfing Boulder Toss to uselessness for everyone - melee and casters combined, for no melee is going to bother interrupting their attack to throw a tiny amount of damage - equates to ruining force specked artificer builds. No one who runs EE content is going to bother with BT after the change. Arties who incorporated BT b/c of the synergy w/force simply won't be viable after this ridiculous, thoughtless nerf.

If they were really going to make Boulder Toss "real" then it should be entirely based around str. It's not. It's just a thoughtless nerf to uselessness for everyone.

Why would u twist in boulder toss? theres so many other good options, energy burst, evo dcs.

[Ancient]

Why would u twist in boulder toss? theres so many other good options, energy burst, evo dcs.

Because the trio of energy burst, boulder and wild shots could give a nice epic lvl dmg burst to builds that don't have it.

[Irongutz2000]

Because the trio of energy burst, boulder and wild shots could give a nice epic lvl dmg burst to builds that don't have it.

I use Blade barrier , Blast rod sla my rune arm, my cross bow, prismatic strike and tac det . I play mine in shadow dancer with evo dcs and energy burst twisted. See no need to have those at all.

[Singular]

Pity. I always thought that Boulder Toss was a good thematic fit with the Earth Savant that I play.
On the bright side, it appears that this change is not live yet, because I'm still doing 2-2.5k per toss as of 1 hr ago.
Also, if your force spellpower is <200, the change would be a boost. Many non-force specced casters have force spellpower around 200 anyway.

Prior to the enhancement pass, I reliably tossed around 6k BTs (6-12). After, it was usually 3.5k and crits to 9k.

After this change, there won't be any crits and it will do around 1k, maybe 2k if you roll max numbers. At this point, it's not useful and simply exists to interup the firing sequence - I can produce that much damage w/my xbow in the same amount of time it takes me to go through the BT animation (and the animation itself is full of bugs, not landing of the ground is slightly uneven - and we're talking about a conjured, thrown rock here. Or, if some of the people arguing against me here have it, a stone heavier than my character can lift, picked up and tossed that cannot, for reasons unknown, be tossed over slightly uneven ground).

So...yeah. The people arguing for realism have the most bizarre understanding of realism I've seen outside of institutions. This is a game with character classes and powers, some of which are located in 'epic destinies.' The programmers and developers are reducing to uselessness one of the powers of an ED I run in without replacing it's power loss.

[Singular]

So we are comparing a augment slot with a 2% chance to proc that deals much less damage than an artificer using spell power and Boulder Toss? Lol

No, I was correcting your mistake.

So what you are really wanting is a nerf to casters who use boulder toss b/c you're jealous of the damage? Melee put out much better dps than artificers. Now w/out BT, arties will be much worse.

[Arianka]

From Update 21 Patch 1:

"Fury of the Wild
Boulder Toss is no longer considered a spell (which means that it can be used in an Antimagic Field), and no longer benefits from Spell Power. The damage has been increased."

Since most of our builds incorporate Boulder Toss b/c of our force spell power, this change will effectively lower our dps by 10-20% and reduce our ability to do EE.
if ur not getting good dps from a artie without boulder toss, ur doing it wrong.

[Qhualor]

No, I was correcting your mistake.

So what you are really wanting is a nerf to casters who use boulder toss b/c you're jealous of the damage? Melee put out much better dps than artificers. Now w/out BT, arties will be much worse.

I made no mistake. the ruby does not compare to Boulder Toss. I think its hilarious you are actually trying to compare a 2% proc chance that has to be slotted to use and does considerable less damage than if you were to use Boulder Toss with a 20 second cool down and does 2k plus damage with spell power.

thinking that this is some personal issue just made you lose any credibility with me. I thought it was terrible that builds that use spell power benefited from Boulder Toss much more than a barbarian that happens to be in a destiny aimed for barbarians.

[Singular]

Why would u twist in boulder toss? theres so many other good options, energy burst, evo dcs.

A. I don't twist BT. I run in Fury. It's the highest dps ED for arties.
B. If I ran in another ED - say, if I wanted to CC stuff instead - I'd twist BT in b/c it adds to my damage. It's fantastic for killing single target EE mobs, or at least finishing them off (I produce between 3-9k/BT).

[Singular]

I made no mistake. the ruby does not compare to Boulder Toss. I think its hilarious you are actually trying to compare a 2% proc chance that has to be slotted to use and does considerable less damage than if you were to use Boulder Toss with a 20 second cool down and does 2k plus damage with spell power.

Yes, I was correcting you. You made this claim above:


Than I should be able to use spell power to add to my barbs weapon damage also.

I corrected you by saying that you can add your spell power to your weapon damage, if you use the Ruby Eye augments.


thinking that this is some personal issue just made you lose any credibility with me. I thought it was terrible that builds that use spell power benefited from Boulder Toss much more than a barbarian that happens to be in a destiny aimed for barbarians.

I don't have any personal issues with you. I've agreed with many of your comments on these forums and even given you rep for some of them. I've lost credibility with you - so what?

The change is personal to me b/c it affects the main character I have spent a lot of time building to be force specced. A very long time farming out just the perfect gear to match my enchantment, ED and spell choices - along with a lot of other arties who use the force spec. And I run in Fury. For my artie, it's my favorite ED, and I've run in them all.

Three points:

1. All EDs are suppose to have something for each class. As much as you've thought BT was terrible to have buffed by spell power, I've always thought of BT is for spell casters. It's worthless to melee at present.

2. The boost in damage they're giving it isn't enough to make it useful to melee. It just makes it bad for everyone.

3. Arties will no longer compete with top tier dps - we're going to lose our heavy burst option. Since the devs are going ahead with this ill change regardless, I hope that when they finally get around to making an artificer ED, they put something comparable back in. As it stands, they've trashed artificers twice now - once with the enhancement pass by flat out killing one top dps option (acid specced) - and now have reduced us further.

As Ancient wrote - this nerf by Turbine widens the gaps between those builds that already produce high dps and those that don't. The game just lost a little more variety. We might as well all don robes, get some evasion and give up pure.