Red-named trash . . . whay does it exist?

[Teh_Troll]

If something is red-named . . . shouldn't it at least have a name?

[Hathorian]

haha. this is a great question! I don't have an answer but I agree with your implication that there are far too many red name. they aren't special anymore (not sure if they ever were?). the game is all about dps now partly because nothing works against red name except dps.

[schelsullivan]

If something is red-named . . . shouldn't it at least have a name?

How about Fred?

[axel15810]

If something is red-named . . . shouldn't it at least have a name?

I think it's fine as long as it's just not the same as normal mobs. Instead of Orc, I'm fine with the red name being Orc General or Orc Leader. And that's generally the case as I've experienced it. I wouldn't expect the devs to come up with a unique name like Kkomglol for every red name.

[PermaBanned]

haha. this is a great question! I don't have an answer but I agree with your implication that there are far too many red name. they aren't special anymore (not sure if they ever were?). the game is all about dps now partly because nothing works against red name except dps.

My guesses are that's either a response to "Epic is easy" or they want you to have a better look at what you're invising past...

[Teh_Troll]

How about Fred?

That would be acceptable. but it's a copout not naming stuff, very lazy game design.

[maddmatt70]

If something is red-named . . . shouldn't it at least have a name?

The reason why there is red named trash is for characters built more for dps rather then insta killing or tactics or what have you. It gives dps oriented characters a little bit more variety then just being good against the one red named blob that they put in per quest. I actually like having some red named mobs for my dps characters.

[Chai]

Another way to implement blanket immunities.

[Teh_Troll]

The reason why there is red named trash is for characters built more for dps rather then insta killing or tactics or what have you. It gives dps oriented characters a little bit more variety then just being good against the one red named blob that they put in per quest. I actually like having some red named mobs for my dps characters.

Why should any trash mob have named benefits?

Are the devs that uncreative that they can't come up with the names for the "unique" mobs?

Orange trash doesn't bother me, but I'm sorry red-named trash is ********.

[pie2655]

Why should any trash mob have named benefits?

Are the devs that uncreative that they can't come up with the names for the "unique" mobs?

Orange trash doesn't bother me, but I'm sorry red-named trash is silly.

Spread the word to end the word

[Seikojin]

If something is red-named . . . shouldn't it at least have a name?

It does; Troll, Ogre Mage, etc.

[Certon]

What? I'm AGREEING with Teh_Troll?

This can't be right!

*hangs head in shame*

[zwiebelring]

Did Red-Shirts in Star Trek have names???

[PermaBanned]

Did Red-Shirts in Star Trek have names???

They dont live long enough to get named ;) Red-Shirts are the opposite of Red Names; instead of blanket immunities they're like Coyles weaker siblings - they have blanket vulnerabilities!

[Jasparion]

If something is red-named . . . shouldn't it at least have a name?

To further boost Monk sales in U22 there will be purple named trash. Continuing the onslaught against anyone wanting to play a DC caster.

[Violentbeginning]

To further boost Monk sales in U22 there will be purple named trash. Continuing the onslaught against anyone wanting to play a DC caster.

I love how the natural response to "this thing I do not like" equals "blame monks"

I remember the good ole days when ponies developed a new trick when their one trick did not work for every scenario.

[Buffyanne]

Aside from 'red names' being like, you know named it also defies logic. A red name is supposed to be a unique or at least one of the most powerful representations of its type. Looking at the two new raids is this even remotely the case? Take Deathwrym, you mean all the Cult casters are the best of their type? Their entire order in the end fight? I could see maybe a council of 4 or so but when they are random trash spawns they all are the top tier? How did they all get so powerful? In FoTM its even sillier, all the salamanders are red named? Really? What about the elementals? All of them? There is a rare elemental in Thunderhoilme that actually has a name but what is the difference between him and all the other red elementals? Well other than HPs.

Better monster design would be to have one red named leader and then orange named around him. You could even go berserk and make the red name a huge sack of HPs.

[NaturalHazard]

every red name that doesn't have a name yet should just be named Bob.

[Furbitor]

Another way to implement blanket immunities.

....I got to say, chai is right.

Years back..... oh soo long ago I remember a thread where devs was introducing this to us, and the reason was like this: They aren't red named bosses... the color of the creatures name represents its types of immunities and blah blah blah.

ppl was upset they was getting no chests for red named critters.

[Eth]

I ran trial by fire the other day and there was a red-named troll...

[NaturalHazard]

So it sucks more for instant kill specced casters if there are any around?

[01000010]

its about resources, reds cant be stunned or cc'd so take longer to kill and hit back. these two factors mean more resources to get past them?(assuming they need to be killed).

if you happen to run out of resources you either wasted a lot of time or you can spend cash at the store and refill mana, .rez or whatever.

not to.hard to see through.

[fmalfeas]

every red name that doesn't have a name yet should just be named Bob.

Bob? What do efreeti monks have to do with this?

http://www.giantbomb.com/lord-doljonijiarnimorinar/3005-22426/ <---Lord Bob.

[anivaj]

So it sucks more for instant kill specced casters if there are any around?

I'm sorry, but it's not just the necro specced wizards that get hosed. Every single spell that doesnt do damage becomes next to useless, making a DC wizard a poor man's sorc. Making holds and stuns useless on trash mobs is a ridiculous mechanic, as is epic ward. I'm ok with being useless on a rednamed boss, as long as I can still help out with the trash, but Turbine is now making a DC caster a useless party slot for raids.

[anivaj]

its about resources, reds cant be stunned or cc'd so take longer to kill and hit back. these two factors mean more resources to get past them?(assuming they need to be killed).

if you happen to run out of resources you either wasted a lot of time or you can spend cash at the store and refill mana, .rez or whatever.

not to.hard to see through.

Ding ding ding! Unfortunately, I believe we have found our answer.

[SirValentine]

If something is red-named . . . shouldn't it at least have a name?

You're over 4 years late asking this. Epic VoN1, Fury-Horn Shaman, anyone?

[Thrudh]

1 in 20 or 1 in 50 mobs being a red-name is a good thing.

I can't believe there are vets complaining about this.

[Thrudh]

its about resources, reds cant be stunned or cc'd so take longer to kill and hit back. these two factors mean more resources to get past them?(assuming they need to be killed).

if you happen to run out of resources you either wasted a lot of time or you can spend cash at the store and refill mana, .rez or whatever.

not to.hard to see through.

Are you really saying it's a money-grab?? LOL.

So every tough monster is just Turbine trying to greedily get us to spend money on SP pots? (Note however, that quests are FULL of shrines, and new enhancements give us a TON of extra SP)

[Thrudh]

I'm sorry, but it's not just the necro specced wizards that get hosed. Every single spell that doesnt do damage becomes next to useless, making a DC wizard a poor man's sorc. Making holds and stuns useless on trash mobs is a ridiculous mechanic, as is epic ward. I'm ok with being useless on a rednamed boss, as long as I can still help out with the trash, but Turbine is now making a DC caster a useless party slot for raids.

Really? Useless party slot? "Hey, guys, I killed 29 of the last 30 mobs... think you guys could help out a little on this one? Man, I'm so useless."

[01000010]

1 in 20 or 1 in 50 mobs being a red-name is a good thing.

I can't believe there are vets complaining about this.

Its red named trashish mobs were talking about, blanket immunities should not be on dime a dozen mobs, it makes many spells and tactics useless.

Its bad for the game.

[Teh_Troll]

I ran trial by fire the other day and there was a red-named troll...

Get off my lawn!!!

[Teh_Troll]

1 in 20 or 1 in 50 mobs being a red-name is a good thing.

I can't believe there are vets complaining about this.

If they have Blanket immunities to everything they deserve a name. Not doing so is just plain lazy development and for what we pay we deserve better.

hell . . . "String table error" would be an acceptable name.

[Nestroy]

Get off my lawn!!!

We missed you!

[jalont]

its about resources, reds cant be stunned or cc'd so take longer to kill and hit back. these two factors mean more resources to get past them?(assuming they need to be killed).

if you happen to run out of resources you either wasted a lot of time or you can spend cash at the store and refill mana, .rez or whatever.

not to.hard to see through.

This is ludicrous.

Is this going to be the new "bad-player mantra"? DDO only implements challenge because it's p2w?

[Hathorian]

I'm sorry, but it's not just the necro specced wizards that get hosed. Every single spell that doesnt do damage becomes next to useless, making a DC wizard a poor man's sorc. Making holds and stuns useless on trash mobs is a ridiculous mechanic, as is epic ward. I'm ok with being useless on a rednamed boss, as long as I can still help out with the trash, but Turbine is now making a DC caster a useless party slot for raids.

yep :(

[Hathorian]

Really? Useless party slot? "Hey, guys, I killed 29 of the last 30 mobs... think you guys could help out a little on this one? Man, I'm so useless."

Do you actually use a DC caster in update 21 content...the 2 raids, wilderness and haunted halls? If so, please tell us your experiences.

[darthhento]

(Note however, that quests are FULL of shrines, and new enhancements give us a TON of extra SP)

There is exactly ONE shrine in the TWO new raids combined. And you're the one that claims that you have ran those already ::)

[Hathorian]

Are you really saying it's a money-grab?? LOL.

So every tough monster is just Turbine trying to greedily get us to spend money on SP pots? (Note however, that quests are FULL of shrines, and new enhancements give us a TON of extra SP)

Have you run either of the 2 new raids? On a DC caster? The vast majority of monsters in u21 are either red name or undead. There are 0 shrines in the red dragon raid and 1 shrine in the shadow dragon raid (which took my group 3 hours to complete....imagine playing 3 hours and only getting 1 shrine on a DC caster!!!!??!??!?!?! *** stupid???).

I have to agree with the binary man...seems like the 2 new raids were designed to milk more money from players by having to buy resources from the store. Well, this is going to backfire big time because people are just going to say I'm not going to bother playing the new raids. On Orien I only maybe see 1 u21 raid posted per night if that. Pretty sad.

[jalont]

Have you run either of the 2 new raids? On a DC caster? The vast majority of monsters in u21 are either red name or undead. There are 0 shrines in the red dragon raid and 1 shrine in the shadow dragon raid (which took my group 3 hours to complete....imagine playing 3 hours and only getting 1 shrine on a DC caster!!!!??!??!?!?! *** stupid???).

I have to agree with the binary man...seems like the 2 new raids were designed to milk more money from players by having to buy resources from the store. Well, this is going to backfire big time because people are just going to say I'm not going to bother playing the new raids. On Orien I only maybe see 1 u21 raid posted per night if that. Pretty sad.

I'd agree with removing blanket immunities if we removed instakills from the game. Deal?

[Hathorian]

I'd agree with removing blanket immunities if we removed instakills from the game. Deal?

how about you go give world of warcraft a try? I'd like to continue playing D&D thanks.

[Qhualor]

its about resources, reds cant be stunned or cc'd so take longer to kill and hit back. these two factors mean more resources to get past them?(assuming they need to be killed).

if you happen to run out of resources you either wasted a lot of time or you can spend cash at the store and refill mana, .rez or whatever.

not to.hard to see through.

That's quite the tinfoil hat conspiracy. Sure it may require a bit more resources to kill a red named, but resources are also used on regular trash mobs too. Red names don't necessarily have to be named. Its possible to encounter powerful creatures while on your adventure that aren't yet known to the world.

[jalont]

how about you go give world of warcraft a try? I'd like to continue playing D&D thanks.

How does D&D balance instakills and casters? Let's implement the same system.

[Hathorian]

How does D&D balance instakills and casters? Let's implement the same system.

by limiting the number of spells. this is already implemented in DDO.

Have you tried using a DC caster in u21 raids?

[Qhualor]

Have you run either of the 2 new raids? On a DC caster? The vast majority of monsters in u21 are either red name or undead. There are 0 shrines in the red dragon raid and 1 shrine in the shadow dragon raid (which took my group 3 hours to complete....imagine playing 3 hours and only getting 1 shrine on a DC caster!!!!??!??!?!?! *** stupid???).

I have to agree with the binary man...seems like the 2 new raids were designed to milk more money from players by having to buy resources from the store. Well, this is going to backfire big time because people are just going to say I'm not going to bother playing the new raids. On Orien I only maybe see 1 u21 raid posted per night if that. Pretty sad.

That's what they said about CITW but that continues to be run. Not as much as before the free gifts and FOT though. If its really that much of a drain, I'm sure there will be changes, but the raids are still new and eventually people will figure out how to beat them easier just like we always have in the past.

[Ykt]

All monsters with INT above 3 should have a name. Get to work turbine.

[jalont]

by limiting the number of spells. this is already implemented in DDO.

Have you tried using a DC caster in u21 raids?

Let's be honest. They balance by limiting spell uses per day. If you only had two uses of Wail between each shrine, I feel that would be balanced, and we could lower saves and remove blanket immunities.

And yes I have, but it doesn't really matter if I had or not. The point stands. Instakills are the most game-breaking aspect of DDO. Since eGH, melee have come a long way and are on par and better than DC casters in some content. The only reason this is the case is due to the things that people are complaining about. If these balancing elements were removed, every non-DC-caster toon would be slapped right back down into oblivion.

[Chai]

How does D&D balance instakills and casters? Let's implement the same system.

Content balance. Not everything can be instakilled and not every board can be wiped in one round by a wizard.

[Hathorian]

That's what they said about CITW but that continues to be run. Not as much as before the free gifts and FOT though. If its really that much of a drain, I'm sure there will be changes, but the raids are still new and eventually people will figure out how to beat them easier just like we always have in the past.

There are like....3 shrines in citw? That is 3x more than the 2 new raids combined. Plus citw isn't as long as the shadow raid and there are at least some drow that can be held/killed in citw. Almost everything is rednamed or undead in the 2 new raids....

[Hathorian]

Let's be honest. They balance by limiting spell uses per day. If you only had two uses of Wail between each shrine, I feel that would be balanced, and we could lower saves and remove blanket immunities.

And yes I have, but it doesn't really matter if I had or not. The point stands. Instakills are the most game-breaking aspect of DDO. Since eGH, melee have come a long way and are on par and better than DC casters in some content. The only reason this is the case is due to the things that people are complaining about. If these balancing elements were removed, every non-DC-caster toon would be slapped right back down into oblivion.

No, you obviously don't play DC casters in u21 raids because you obviously have a huge hate on for them. Instakills are great for easy content (but then again so is everything else). You shouldn't be so worried about DC casters, they pose no threat to melee. DC casters help kill/hold trash and melee provide dps to red name and bosses. It is a synergistic relationship. It is monkchers that have pretty much made melee obsolete. They do higher burst dps and are much more survivable.

How do you feel about monks with unlimited instakills not limited by spell points?

[Eth]

There are like....3 shrines in citw? That is 3x more than the 2 new raids combined. Plus citw isn't as long as the shadow raid and there are at least some drow that can be held/killed in citw. Almost everything is rednamed or undead in the 2 new raids....

Shadow Raid is about the same length as CitW once people figure it out. I think you can easily bring it down to 30 mins on EH in a good group.

[Hathorian]

Shadow Raid is about the same length as CitW once people figure it out. I think you can easily bring it down to 30 mins on EH in a good group.

Good luck for most people finding the right group. I've only seen it posted twice so far this week. The run I did took 3 hours. Yes this will drop a lot but it is still very long (and repetitive).

[Teh_Troll]

As simple troll about rednames not having names . . . on it's 3rd page and it's already evolved to a pay-2-win discussion.

A successful troll is successful.

[HAL]

Another way to implement blanket immunities.

This^

Red-named used to = "boss". Now they are trivialized and purple-named will be the norm. I don't know what they will do once they trivialize purple-names. Black-names? (So OP you can't even see them coming...)

[Eth]

Good luck for most people finding the right group. I've only seen it posted twice so far this week. The run I did took 3 hours. Yes this will drop a lot but it is still very long (and repetitive).

Complicated raids are unlikely to get pugged so early after release.
Your best bet would be to organise some groups with people you know, go in there slowly and learn the mechanics.

When you're familiar with it just post your own LFMs.

There's also a guide in the strategy forum if you don't mind spoilers.

[Hathorian]

Complicated raids are unlikely to get pugged so early after release.
Your best bet would be to organise some groups with people you know, go in there slowly and learn the mechanics.

When you're familiar with it just post your own LFMs.

There's also a guide in the strategy forum if you don't mind spoilers.

Yeah, I think there are multiple reasons why people aren't posting LFMs for these raids. It would be a nightmare trying to lead a pug through something like that....

[Hathorian]

This^

Red-named used to = "boss". Now they are trivialized and purple-named will be the norm. I don't know what they will do once they trivialize purple-names. Black-names? (So OP you can't even see them coming...)

lol!! so OP you can't even see them coming!

[brian14]

I thought OP was about mobs like Nishan in Vale -- red-named, but killing him does not get you anything special.

[Vanquishedfo]

As simple troll about rednames not having names . . . on it's 3rd page and it's already evolved to a pay-2-win discussion.

A successful troll is successful.

That is because it isnt actually a troll, you may be ignorant if you truly that was so, but the fact is Mobs and their status like boss, mini boss, and minion are very important mechanics that when the line blurs, it only creates confusion and ****es off the player base.

I recall back on City Of Heroes, how for my Broad Sword/Regen Scrapper how Everything short of arch villains where trash, and arch villains where Super powerful foes meant for entire teams of players. Especially at low to mid lvls, yet for my single target dps specced scrapper, minions where 1 hit, Lieutenants where one hit, and bosses most of the time where 1 hit. An AV would actually require me to use tactical application of my defensive buffs and health regen clickies, as well as an occasional consumable buff or temp power item.

However the Devs there did not treat people who wanted to ghost pass trash, or focus on killing just the big game as some kind of sin.

Hell in PnP D&D all so called bosses almost universally in campaigns Ive played in or run at RPGA ruled tables last all of one round at higher lvls as when a teams plan can include using a special minor artifact found in a printed module to time stop and still actively move and attack during it, well in the hands of a monkcher( something about as old as 3E PnP and nothing at all to do with DDO) it means a mighty demonic red wyrm with a heart made from a bailor still last one round. and wont get an attack off. and that is an actual printed epic lvl D&D module for 3E I am referencing right there.

[Vanquishedfo]

Complicated raids are unlikely to get pugged so early after release.
Your best bet would be to organise some groups with people you know, go in there slowly and learn the mechanics.

When you're familiar with it just post your own LFMs.

There's also a guide in the strategy forum if you don't mind spoilers.

And you highlight why raids are so bad for DDO. This isnt WoW, and pugging is far more the life blood of this game then for many MMO, when content comes out that expects players to use meta game resources or multiple runs to learn how to defeat it effectively, they have already rendered it content not worth developing as most players simply will never see it and have no reason to buy it.

[Vanquishedfo]

Let's be honest. They balance by limiting spell uses per day. If you only had two uses of Wail between each shrine, I feel that would be balanced, and we could lower saves and remove blanket immunities.

And yes I have, but it doesn't really matter if I had or not. The point stands. Instakills are the most game-breaking aspect of DDO. Since eGH, melee have come a long way and are on par and better than DC casters in some content. The only reason this is the case is due to the things that people are complaining about. If these balancing elements were removed, every non-DC-caster toon would be slapped right back down into oblivion.

Total Myth, there are in 3E especially several ways for a well made caster to by end game have unlimited spell use. Specifically off the top of my head an issue of dragon had an arcane PRC that if you where also undead would at its 9th lvl mean you could use any spell you knew at will for all intents and purposes with no negative side effect because the undead status made you immune to it. The fact they use that very trick for an undead villainous NPC only made it OBVIOUS for anyone rather then being a clever build trick DMs wouldnt see coming.

[SirValentine]

Do you actually use a DC caster in update 21 content...the 2 raids, wilderness and haunted halls? If so, please tell us your experiences.


The wilderness is easy. But it's a wilderness, which is automatically Normal difficulty, so I wasn't expecting any different.



The vast majority of monsters in u21 are either red name or undead.


Well, obviously red-named are immune to crowd control & insta-kill spells.

But who cares if the mobs are undead or not? There's special spells designed precisely for that! OK, a DC-specced Sorc or FvS might not have them slotted, but mobs being undead isn't a big deal at all to a DC caster Wizard or Cleric. Unless they didn't learn how to, you know, swap their spells at any tavern or shrine.

[Vanquishedfo]

How does D&D balance instakills and casters? Let's implement the same system.

It doesnt because RPGA run games use the overwhelming damage threshold rule from the core DMG. this means any time a human sized character for example suffers more then 40 dmg in one blow, that character has to make a fort save DC equal 10+ each point of dmg dealt over the threshold. This is why for most PnP players there is very little tolerance for taking any dmg in high end game play as to them one hit should mean death most of the time, but the tools to avoid those should be many and fun to use.

Understand in PnP the entire point for someone to be an assassin is to one shot the end game boss of an adventure, everything else they try to avoid like hella nd seem as helpless as possible so the DM wont have any clue as to the best way to counter that sinners paticular style

[TempestAlphaOmega]

All monsters with INT above 3 should have a name. Get to work turbine.

Lets be real, all that matters is 'Live Troll' or 'Dead Troll', most of their names don't translate well anyway and you are not trying to make friends and they just are not that memorable.

The colors just tell players the approximate time for reclassification from 'Live Troll' to 'Dead Troll'.

Now the color scheme certainly needs looking at. Really Orange or Red?

I have to keep asking guildies if that was an orange or a red name. They say 'where'? Back there on the ground, named 'dead troll'. It was orange. Oh, guess that makes sense since it died to a FoD.

I want to be able to change the colors of those mobs in settings.

I want to scheme them Daffodil / Cyan / Rose / Eggplant

I have no idea what those colors look like to most people but they dertainly look different enought to me for me to be able to tell them apart.

[Hathorian]

The wilderness is easy. But it's a wilderness, which is automatically Normal difficulty, so I wasn't expecting any different.



Well, obviously red-named are immune to crowd control & insta-kill spells.

But who cares if the mobs are undead or not? There's special spells designed precisely for that! OK, a DC-specced Sorc or FvS might not have them slotted, but mobs being undead isn't a big deal at all to a DC caster Wizard or Cleric. Unless they didn't learn how to, you know, swap their spells at any tavern or shrine.

Wizards have what...one group AOE spell that specifically targets undead? And it has a standard 30 second cooldown. Undead are otherwise immune to most stuns, enchantments, instakills, etc. Single target (or even 3 at a time) undead spells just aren't going to cut it in the new raids. You are far too restricted on spell points. Unless you want to drink 50 pots each raid. DPS is really what counts in the new raids and most dc casters would be piking using this approach. You pretty much have to switch to shiradi to be effective.

[fool101]

Lets be real, all that matters is 'Live Troll' or 'Dead Troll', most of their names don't translate well anyway and you are not trying to make friends and they just are not that memorable.

The colors just tell players the approximate time for reclassification from 'Live Troll' to 'Dead Troll'.

Now the color scheme certainly needs looking at. Really Orange or Red?

I have to keep asking guildies if that was an orange or a red name. They say 'where'? Back there on the ground, named 'dead troll'. It was orange. Oh, guess that makes sense since it died to a FoD.

I want to be able to change the colors of those mobs in settings.

I want to scheme them Daffodil / Cyan / Rose / Eggplant

I have no idea what those colors look like to most people but they dertainly look different enought to me for me to be able to tell them apart.

I changed all my "orange named" mobs to yellow for any of my toons that can CC. There is a setting for that in your options somewhere.

[TempestAlphaOmega]

I changed all my "orange named" mobs to yellow for any of my toons that can CC. There is a setting for that in your options somewhere.

I guess I missed that. Thank you (really).

While most of my post was less than serious I do suffer from color perception issues and while I had made some changes I missed the mob settings, will be taking care of that tonight.

Thanks again.

[Thrudh]

If they have Blanket immunities to everything they deserve a name. Not doing so is just plain lazy development and for what we pay we deserve better.

hell . . . "String table error" would be an acceptable name.

Name is cool... I don't mind your complaint... But other "vets" in this thread are actually complaining that red-names EXIST mixed in the trash.

They just want one-boss monster, and no more... AND they complain that "epic is too easy".

[Thrudh]

There is exactly ONE shrine in the TWO new raids combined. And you're the one that claims that you have ran those already ::)

Where did I claim that? I haven't run the raids yet... Haunted Halls is awesome though, and completely full of shrines.

Raids have always been SP tight... But with 12 people, it's not that hard to be smart with your SP... SP-management is a skill that used to be important even in quests, and now everyone has forgotten how to do it (even the "leet" players in this thread)

[Thrudh]

And you highlight why raids are so bad for DDO. This isnt WoW, and pugging is far more the life blood of this game then for many MMO, when content comes out that expects players to use meta game resources or multiple runs to learn how to defeat it effectively, they have already rendered it content not worth developing as most players simply will never see it and have no reason to buy it.

Give it a couple of weeks... but yeah, powergamers... if you don't PUG out the new raids someday, the devs are going to notice (again) that raids are only run by a tiny percentage of the players, and they are going to stop making them (again).

[Qhualor]

There are like....3 shrines in citw? That is 3x more than the 2 new raids combined. Plus citw isn't as long as the shadow raid and there are at least some drow that can be held/killed in citw. Almost everything is rednamed or undead in the 2 new raids....

There are 0 shrines in Reavers, Hound, VOD, Abbot and Von 6 but somehow players learned manna conservation.

[Chai]

Hell in PnP D&D all so called bosses almost universally in campaigns Ive played in or run at RPGA ruled tables last all of one round at higher lvls as when a teams plan can include using a special minor artifact found in a printed module to time stop and still actively move and attack during it, well in the hands of a monkcher( something about as old as 3E PnP and nothing at all to do with DDO) it means a mighty demonic red wyrm with a heart made from a bailor still last one round. and wont get an attack off. and that is an actual printed epic lvl D&D module for 3E I am referencing right there.

Thats called metagaming - the biggest downfall of printed content. With good content balance, this kind of one rounding any encounter one happens apon doesnt occur every single time. To achieve this, one must design ones own content as a DM in order to weed the metagaming out, then understand how to mix and match content so that it all cant be trivialized. I do this before I even know who my players are or what their characters are, so theres no need to reverse metagame against the party as well. We've experienced good 20 round combats in epic level content with 30+ year experienced players, simply due to good content balance and lack of metagaming.

[Chai]

Give it a couple of weeks... but yeah, powergamers... if you don't PUG out the new raids someday, the devs are going to notice (again) that raids are only run by a tiny percentage of the players, and they are going to stop making them (again).

This release is comparing alot to the shroud when it first came out. Completion is not guaranteed, even for folks who already completed it a few times. The barrier folks have to break through is to try it out, even with 12 newbies who have never been in there. Get as far as they can, then repeat when everyone is ready to go again, whether that is 15 minutes after a wipe, or days after.

[Hathorian]

There are 0 shrines in Reavers, Hound, VOD, Abbot and Von 6 but somehow players learned manna conservation.

you're comparing reavers, vod, abbot and von6 to the red dragon and shadow dracolich raid? seriously? those are all like 5-15 minute raids. dude please stop.

[Thrudh]

you're comparing reavers, vod, abbot and von6 to the red dragon and shadow dracolich raid? seriously? those are all like 5-15 minute raids. dude please stop you have no idea what you are talking about.

They weren't 5-15 minute raids when they were first released... Dude please stop, you have no idea what you're talking about...

And people complained about the lack of shrines back then too...

[Qhualor]

you're comparing reavers, vod, abbot and von6 to the red dragon and shadow dracolich raid? seriously? those are all like 5-15 minute raids. dude please stop you have no idea what you are talking about.

Yep, I am. Those raids back when people were running them were tough to beat with no shrines. People complained about having to drink pots back then too and than came along more sp regen items, bards with sp regen and even added eggs in Von 6. I'm not comparing the difficulty of these raids to the new raid today. I'm telling you this song and dance has been done before and players learned how to manage their sp in the past. This new raid is no different than what we have seen in the past.

[Chai]

you're comparing reavers, vod, abbot and von6 to the red dragon and shadow dracolich raid? seriously? those are all like 5-15 minute raids. dude please stop.

Not back when they came out they didnt. VOD was a mana potion buy in raid for over a year. Abbot was failed more than succeeded for a while. The only real easy one when it came out was reavers.

[Hathorian]

Yep, I am. Those raids back when people were running them were tough to beat with no shrines. People complained about having to drink pots back then too and than came along more sp regen items, bards with sp regen and even added eggs in Von 6. I'm not comparing the difficulty of these raids to the new raid today. I'm telling you this song and dance has been done before and players learned how to manage their sp in the past. This new raid is no different than what we have seen in the past.

In von6 you go to a pillar and then beat down a red dragon and a few red name. In Abbot you mainly do a few puzzles that don't take SP and beat down Abbot (unless you are in the middle then yes you have to more undead). In Reavers you kill a few air ellies, beat down the stormreaver. Even VOD is just one room. In the shadow raid our group took 3 hours and we had over 600 kills (way too much time wasted on jumping and puzzles but whatever). Almost all (all?) of those were either red name or undead. Pretty hard to compare those raids with the Shadow Dragon raid....

[Hathorian]

Not back when they came out they didnt. VOD was a mana potion buy in raid for over a year. Abbot was failed more than succeeded for a while. The only real easy one when it came out was reavers.

yes they were resource intensive but not nearly on the scale of what the shadow dragon raid would be for a DC caster.... It would probably be better for a non-shiradi wizard to go to EA destiny and twist rej cocoon and heal the raid than actually try to contribute dps :)

[Chai]

yes they were resource intensive but not nearly on the scale of what the shadow dragon raid would be for a DC caster.... It would probably be better for a wizard to go to EA destiny and twist rej cocoon and heal the raid than actually try to contribute dps :)

Id say they were about the same actually. People forget how much power creep has risen since those days, when Threnal was the main loot run, and pulling a +1 flaming longsword could be the highlight of an afternoon of gaming. The scale is pretty congruent in how quickly the mobs could kill a player character. Healing was much harder back then due to far less multi-target cure spells, no multi-target heal spell, and no cleric PRE.

The issue is not that these new raids are too hard, its that theres an atmosphere cultivated where raids after the first iteration of epics were too easy. It has become expected that people can complete the new raid on day one and never look back. Folks are hitting the panic button 4 days in because they havent fully figured out what works best yet, and are used to the previous raids like CITW and FOT which were trivialized on everything but EE on days 1-3.

[Hathorian]

Id say they were about the same actually. People forget how much power creep has risen since those days, when Threnal was the main loot run, and pulling a +1 flaming longsword could be the highlight of an afternoon of gaming. The scale is pretty congruent in how quickly the mobs could kill a player character. Healing was much harder back then due to far less multi-target cure spells, no multi-target heal spell, and no cleric PRE.

so you are saying that killing 15-20 monsters in a level 14 raid then required similar resources to killing 600 redname/undead monsters in a level 30 raid now? for a DC PM wizard. I'm having trouble getting my head around that. I guess DC wizards have always sucked for raids then?

[Chai]

so you are saying that killing 15-20 monsters in a level 14 raid then required similar resources to killing 600 redname/undead monsters in a level 30 raid now? for a DC PM wizard. I'm having trouble getting my head around that. I guess DC wizards have always sucked for raids then?

Im saying aside from reaver, they were failed more than succeeded, for the first few months. Yes, some of them did require similar amounts of resources, in the days when mana pools just over 1000 points, with CSW spells being the best mass cure. In the first year after shroud came out, alot of people had tier 2 weapons, and far fewer had tier 3. What were DC wizards doing to harry in that era. The cold and lightning DOTs didnt exist. Ice storm was not persistent AOE back then, it was a one shot AOE. Frost lance didnt exist yet. Groups usually consisted of 2 healers, 1 caster, and a bunch of heavy beaters.

[Hathorian]

Id say they were about the same actually. People forget how much power creep has risen since those days, when Threnal was the main loot run, and pulling a +1 flaming longsword could be the highlight of an afternoon of gaming. The scale is pretty congruent in how quickly the mobs could kill a player character. Healing was much harder back then due to far less multi-target cure spells, no multi-target heal spell, and no cleric PRE.

The issue is not that these new raids are too hard, its that theres an atmosphere cultivated where raids after the first iteration of epics were too easy. It has become expected that people can complete the new raid on day one and never look back. Folks are hitting the panic button 4 days in because they havent fully figured out what works best yet, and are used to the previous raids like CITW and FOT which were trivialized on everything but EE on days 1-3.

I don't think the new raids are too hard. I just think DC wizards are useless for them and the shadow raid is way too repetitive and time consuming (there should be 1 light puzzle not 6). Plus it is way too much of a grind for 1200 ingots, 300 scales and 30 phlogiston for just 1 weapon.

[jalont]

No, you obviously don't play DC casters in u21 raids because you obviously have a huge hate on for them. Instakills are great for easy content (but then again so is everything else). You shouldn't be so worried about DC casters, they pose no threat to melee. DC casters help kill/hold trash and melee provide dps to red name and bosses. It is a synergistic relationship. It is monkchers that have pretty much made melee obsolete. They do higher burst dps and are much more survivable.

How do you feel about monks with unlimited instakills not limited by spell points?

LOL, you're odd. I do not "hate" anything. I happened to be on a fvs life when u21 hit, and so the raids have been ran because of it. I do not "play" any one class. I play all classes equally.

As for your other statements, yes, there are other overpowered things we need to nerf. But unnerfing the old overpowered things is going backwards not forwards.

[Chai]

I don't think the new raids are too hard. I just think DC wizards are useless for them and the shadow raid is way too repetitive and time consuming (there should be 1 light puzzle not 6). Plus it is way too much of a grind for 1200 ingots, 300 scales and 30 phlogiston for just 1 weapon.

DC wizards are a bad measuring stick, because they are hilariously OP 50% of the time and useless 50% of the time. (its not that extreme or absolute, but you get the picture) - next update they release will prob see DC casters on top of the food chain again. Its already happened 4+ times already in DDO.

We asked for an endgame that had replay value. At least they didnt give us another CITW - handedly defeated on day one, hilariously ground out with timer bypass for the next few weeks, then ran sparingly ever since.

[Tolsimar]

Are the devs that uncreative that they can't come up with the names for the "unique" mobs?


Yes

[Hathorian]

DC wizards are a bad measuring stick, because they are hilariously OP 50% of the time and useless 50% of the time. (its not that extreme or absolute, but you get the picture) - next update they release will prob see DC casters on top of the food chain again. Its already happened 4+ times already in DDO.

We asked for an endgame that had replay value. At least they didnt give us another CITW - handedly defeated on day one, hilariously ground out with timer bypass for the next few weeks, then ran sparingly ever since.

Yeah. We'll see if there is uptake on the shadow dragon raid though. I'm not very optimistic. I'd be happier if they divided the resource requirements by 3 for the weapons and took out the 5 redundant light puzzles.

[Tolsimar]

This^

Red-named used to = "boss". Now they are trivialized and purple-named will be the norm. I don't know what they will do once they trivialize purple-names. Black-names? (So OP you can't even see them coming...)

They already implemented this. It's called lag and the AC is so high you can't hit it.

[anivaj]

Really? Useless party slot? "Hey, guys, I killed 29 of the last 30 mobs... think you guys could help out a little on this one? Man, I'm so useless."

If you think 29 trash mobs are worth being useless against the one that counts, then you have never known the useless feeling of being a DC arcane caster. All the furyshotters and blitzers have zero issue killing those trash mobs and still are able to destroy the rednames. So by adding more rednames, you just make DC casters useless on the things that matter and make there no reason to not run a melee/ranged.

Again, I am not asking to instakill rednamed, but making every DC spell worthless in every way AND making numerous trash rednamed is swinging the pendulum WAY into the melees/Shiradis court, and you couldnt pay me to run in Shiradi cheesiness for every raid.

[Teh_Troll]

They weren't 5-15 minute raids when they were first released... Dude please stop, you have no idea what you're talking about...

And people complained about the lack of shrines back then too...

I rate this troll an 8.5 out of 10.

[Hathorian]

I rate this troll an 8.5 out of 10.

nice! how long did you spend training this minion?

[Gremmlynn]

I'd agree with removing blanket immunities if we removed instakills from the game. Deal?I personally wouldn't remove them, just make them one of several possible effects for failed saves with certain spells. Basically make it a crit effect or catastrophic save fail effect.

[NaturalHazard]

DC wizards are a bad measuring stick, because they are hilariously OP 50% of the time and useless 50% of the time. (its not that extreme or absolute, but you get the picture) - next update they release will prob see DC casters on top of the food chain again. Its already happened 4+ times already in DDO.

We asked for an endgame that had replay value. At least they didnt give us another CITW - handedly defeated on day one, hilariously ground out with timer bypass for the next few weeks, then ran sparingly ever since.

yes thats the nature of the beast all or nothing with them.

[NaturalHazard]

I'm sorry, but it's not just the necro specced wizards that get hosed. Every single spell that doesnt do damage becomes next to useless, making a DC wizard a poor man's sorc. Making holds and stuns useless on trash mobs is a ridiculous mechanic, as is epic ward. I'm ok with being useless on a rednamed boss, as long as I can still help out with the trash, but Turbine is now making a DC caster a useless party slot for raids.

yes CC suffers as well.

[01000010]

This is ludicrous.

Is this going to be the new "bad-player mantra"? DDO only implements challenge because it's p2w?

Man, I love when people make baseless insults when they have no other decent argument. Heres what ill do, you tell me what server youre on, and tell me what build you are using, ill make a first life similar build and well join a group and see whos the obvious better player, or we can keep soloing ee quests with the build until one of us fails one, you name the quests.

Tinfoil hat? I don't think so, I doesn't take a kalashtar to see that red named trash are a cheap tactic to drop resources, they aren't going to kill decent players too often, but they will be a drain since cc is useless. More resource use more ddostore sales, period. Either that or no one plays the raids at all or are forced to use the temp mana builds, which im pretty sure will be nerfed as soon as turbine realizes people with those builds never buy mana pots.

Hey jalont, you gonna step up or all talk?

[Dorian]

I just switch my DC wiz to shiradi and spam MM for the raids. A quick enhancement reset to Evo also helps. Thats about the best you can do.

Undeath to Death is still pretty helpful.

[tomtomtanker]

A unfortunate side effect of so many red named mobs in the new content, that most players may not know is the further sidelining of Bards.

Currently, in the two new raids the bard can only effect a very small portion of the mobs in a numerical sense, and a much smaller portion when considering overall threat and power.

The bard is hamstrung by the songs of the dead, songs of the sewer not working, this is exacerbated by the nature of the Fatesinger epic destiny, where the top tier abilities don't work against any named pink, red, purple, mobs by design. Normally its not a big deal a bard will shift gears, buff and degrade the non-named mobs but with so much named trash it takes a pretty large toll on a already limited class.



Hopefully they will be able to fix the bards songs in the upcoming patch and it won't be quite as drastic disparity. As it is now, a pure Bard can only be taken on sufferance into the new raids. You can heal, but a pure bard will be really pressed to make the gap taking that spot provides. On the bright side, a bard can keep the blue bars casting and throw out raises, but beyond that a pure bard has little impact. Especially in the Deathwyrm where during the last battle there is not any mob that a bard can effect.


Fingers crossed this will be a moot point with the next patch, and bards will be able to lay down some CC on the skellys in Deathwyrm as they can on the Hellhounds in the Fire Drake raid.

[Teh_Troll]

Any dumb arguing of "it's a good thing for DPS toons" might make sense if you eat lead paint chips (okay, they taste pretty good with Halfling Liver, don't judge me) because it's complete nonse. Red-named trash is KITED more than anything else.

And kiting mechanics are ********.

[Postumus]

You're over 4 years late asking this. Epic VoN1, Fury-Horn Shaman, anyone?


Not a surprise. It took the OP almost a year to figure out shiradi casters were "ZOMG!"

[capsela]

Any dumb arguing of "it's a good thing for DPS toons" might make sense if you eat lead paint chips (okay, they taste pretty good with Halfling Liver, don't judge me) because it's complete nonse. Red-named trash is KITED more than anything else.

And kiting mechanics are ********.

Agreed, sadly I think the devs have painted themselves into a corner and can't get out without severely nerfing several abilities. And we all know what they are...

[Teh_Troll]

Not a surprise. It took the OP almost a year to figure out shiradi casters were "ZOMG!"

By "ZOMG!" you mean an over-rated easy-button for people either too lazy or unintelligent to build better toons?

[Chai]

Any dumb arguing of "it's a good thing for DPS toons" might make sense if you eat lead paint chips (okay, they taste pretty good with Halfling Liver, don't judge me) because it's complete nonse. Red-named trash is KITED more than anything else.

And kiting mechanics are ********.

Thats what becomes powerful when mobs hit for tons of damage. The issue I see is it has been defended for years now. Kiting didnt just start being an issue in DDO recently - its been an issue ever since the first caster reached level 7/8, loaded up firewall, and circle kited mobs.

So instead of making mobs challenging, they made them unforgiving. Make a mistake when kiting, take tons of damage.

[BigErkyKid]

Answering the OP.

1. Do you oppose red names not being named or the fact that there are so many red names around that they don't even bother to make them special?

Because red is the new orange, something I profoundly dislike. A lot of the more tactical abilities are wasted on those mobs, as many posts have already pointed out. This encourages raw power characters even more, and those tend to be rather unimaginative.

2. On red names leading to kiting.

Kiting is far too effective, specially on characters capable of dealing very solid damage while kiting. It is clearly not fair that a "kiter" does not have to face plenty of the dangers a close quarters lad is forced to encounter.

Just as an example, the archer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7v_-nk4t5g

[Teh_Troll]

Answering the OP.

1. Do you oppose red names not being named or the fact that there are so many red names around that they don't even bother to make them special?

Because red is the new orange, something I profoundly dislike. A lot of the more tactical abilities are wasted on those mobs, as many posts have already pointed out. This encourages raw power characters even more, and those tend to be rather unimaginative.

2. On red names leading to kiting.

Kiting is far too effective, specially on characters capable of dealing very solid damage while kiting. It is clearly not fair that a "kiter" does not have to face plenty of the dangers a close quarters lad is forced to encounter.

Just as an example, the archer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7v_-nk4t5g

Both reasons.

1. No trash should be red-named EVER. if they were red-named they shouldn't be trash.

I don't mind Orange trash, do that if you insist on taking insta-kills off the board for some mob types. But let us dance/stun/trip stuff.

2. Kiting encounters are ********. Some of us have been *****ing about this lazy development junk since LOB . .. and we get more and more of it every raid.

[Capricorpus]

Both reasons.

1. No trash should be red-named EVER. if they were red-named they shouldn't be trash.

I don't mind Orange trash, do that if you insist on taking insta-kills off the board for some mob types. But let us dance/stun/trip stuff.


This.

As several people said, it seems like red is the new orange, which is just silly.

[BigErkyKid]

So, for the sake of trying, a few proposals:


1. Reduce even more the speed while backpedaling. Simple kiting being reduced to be only effective against very slow mobs.

2. Special mobs, yes. But let us use tactical abilities. Trip / stun / dance feasible, perhaps only for specialists (but not only for uber toons! Specialists means people who build towards it with reasonable gear, not the character with 36 lifes and all the possible gear).

3. More mobs, less hard hitting - i.e. Thunderholmes, not GH. I know this is not going to be popular. But Thunderholmes presents an actual challenge if not run careful (that is, if you eventually want to kill the mobs, not just run to some place and tp inside an instance...), the reason being the mob density.

I find encounters with plenty of mobs more challenging to manage and more hectic and prone to result in random situations. The rests of quests feel like a theater play i have rehearsed a million times.

I am aware the lag monster might be an issue and that Thunderholmes is blamed for producing lag (luckily I have never experienced it, alone or in parties). I am sure, however, that devs can figure out ways of improve that. If that was desired at all.

[Teh_Troll]

Was gonna start yet another thread on this . .. but why bother.

Red-named trash is friggin ********.

It should not exist.

90% of the time the mobs are just kited.

it makes for insanely stupid encounters.

Remove all red-named trash from the game. Period. Orange is acceptable.

If it's gonna be red/purple it needs to be a named boss.

[bsquishwizzy]

If something is red-named . . . shouldn't it at least have a name?

How many Astral Panthers do you know named "Bob"? Hummmm...?

[Teh_Troll]

How many Astral Panthers do you know named "Bob"? Hummmm...?

it's like Baseball umpires in the American League, all of them are named "Al."