Frozen Fury & Boast +1[w]... am I missing something?

[Thunder-Monkey]

So Warchanter's Frozen Fury (rank 2/3) & Boast both claim +1[w]. I thought it would be safe to assume they would have the same effect on damage as Cleave's +1[w], but after testing, i'm not so sure.... am I missing something here? are there some game mechanics I haven't considered?

TEST CONDITIONS:

1. Test was 50 swings at training dummy per pass. 3 passes of each attack were made and the middle scores are shown. Parity was shown in all passes of each attack.
2. Avg Dmg is the mean dmg of those 50 swings
3. 'Misses' were not counted, nor were glancing blows
4. Weapon used: Antique Greataxe (not epic) 1[w] adamantine (to bypass the dr on frozen fury)
5. No buffs, power attack off
6. Dummy was reset on each pass and was never made 'helpless'
7. The Frozen effect was allowed to expire between attacks

RESULTS:

Base Dmg (normal swings x50)
Total Dmg: 1204
Avg Dmg: 24.08

Cleave x50
Total Dmg: 1893
Avg Dmg: 37.86
Dmg Increase: +57.23%

Frozen Fury x50
Total Dmg: 1566
Avg Dmg: 31.32
Dmg Increase: +30.07%

x50 Normal Swings with Boast
Total Dmg: 1533
Avg Dmg: 30.66
Dmg Increase: +27.33%

As you can see the numbers aren't what I was expecting. What did I miss???

[katz]

http://funnyanimalpictures.funnypicturesutopia.com/pics/2/This-Is-Relevant-To-My-Interests-Cat.jpg

[AzB]

It's very simple actually.

It's a bard ability, therefore it must not be allowed to do as much damage as a wet noodle thrown at a brick wall. Just be glad it works on red names, as that seems to be a rarity among bard abilities.

Nerf bards now!

[MindCakes]

[...]
Antique Greataxe
[...]

RESULTS:

Base Dmg (normal swings x50)
Total Dmg: 1204
Avg Dmg: 24.08

Cleave x50
Total Dmg: 1893
Avg Dmg: 37.86
Dmg Increase: +57.23%

Frozen Fury x50
Total Dmg: 1566
Avg Dmg: 31.32
Dmg Increase: +30.07%

x50 Normal Swings with Boast
Total Dmg: 1533
Avg Dmg: 30.66
Dmg Increase: +27.33%

As you can see the numbers aren't what I was expecting. What did I miss???
Hmm.
Antique Greataxe - 1d12 - 1[W] = 6.5 on average.
Base avg damage - 24.

Unless I'm missing something:
Expected avg damage with + 1[W] = 30.5

So... what numbers were you expecting? If anything, it is Cleave that might be not working as expected here...

[Krelar]

Hmm.
Antique Greataxe - 1d12 - 1[W] = 6.5 on average.
Base avg damage - 24.

Unless I'm missing something:
Expected avg damage with + 1[W] = 30.5

So... what numbers were you expecting? If anything, it is Cleave that might be not working as expected here...

That's a good point.

Actually....

OP are you sure you weren't using great cleave instead of cleave? +2[W] instead of +1[W] would exactly account for the difference in your values.

[Thunder-Monkey]

OP are you sure you weren't using great cleave instead of cleave? +2[W] instead of +1[W] would exactly account for the difference in your values.

100% Cleaves not Great Cleaves...


So... what numbers were you expecting? If anything, it is Cleave that might be not working as expected here...

I was expecting Frozen Fury and Boast results to be similar to Cleave's. If what you say is true..... I'm shutting up now!

[Nayus]

cleave counts a full attack, dealing full special effect damage to all targets hit, and also producing a glancing blow (if using an appropriate weapon that allows them). ~ Have you by some chance taken the glancing blows into account?

[Cardtrick]

Without really testing anything . . . this does make some sense. Cleave gets big numbers and just "feels" very powerful. More than just a +1W should make it feel. I frequently get big numbers with Cleave, and I've never really thought about it much. But if it's secretly applying +2W, that would make a lot more sense.

Or I wonder if it's something intended -- like Power Attack, where two-handed weapons get double the benefit. Could it be that Cleave works the same way, and two-handed weapons are getting +2W while one-handed/TWF are getting the expected +1W? (Although, if that was the case, two-handed Great Cleaves would presumably also be getting +4W, and I really don't believe they're doing that much.) It wouldn't make a lot of sense . . . the logic for power attack is that the damage boost is applying to two separate swings, but you only swing once with a Cleave no matter what.

[Thunder-Monkey]

Have you by some chance taken the glancing blows into account?

I don't think so. Unless I'm mistaken, glancing blow damage is shown separately, both on-screen and in combat log. Please correct me if I am wrong.


Or I wonder if it's something intended -- like Power Attack, where two-handed weapons get double the benefit. Could it be that Cleave works the same way, and two-handed weapons are getting +2W while one-handed/TWF are getting the expected +1W? (Although, if that was the case, two-handed Great Cleaves would presumably also be getting +4W, and I really don't believe they're doing that much.) It wouldn't make a lot of sense . . . the logic for power attack is that the damage boost is applying to two separate swings, but you only swing once with a Cleave no matter what.

You could be on to something here... pm coming your way.

[katz]

TEST CONDITIONS:

1. Test was 50 swings at training dummy per pass. 3 passes of each attack were made and the middle scores are shown. Parity was shown in all passes of each attack.
2. Avg Dmg is the mean dmg of those 50 swings
3. 'Misses' were not counted, nor were glancing blows
4. Weapon used: Antique Greataxe (not epic) 1[w] adamantine (to bypass the dr on frozen fury)
5. No buffs, power attack off
6. Dummy was reset on each pass and was never made 'helpless'
7. The Frozen effect was allowed to expire between attacks


using the same rules as before, with these exceptions: i only made one pass per, instead of three (i'm impatient. >.> ) and for the sake of eliminating glancing blows as a possibility, test was performed with a single plain-jane longsword (damage 1-8) purchased from the vendor in the harbor. character was a freshly rolled iconic 13 bard/2 rogue with only the freebie gear, no buffs, 16 str at time of test.

base damage:
highest hit: 13
lowest hit: 6
total dmg: 474
average dmg: 9.48

Frozen Fury:
highest hit: 20
lowest hit: 7
total dmg: 686
average dmg: 13.72

Boast:
highest hit: 21
lowest hit: 9
total dmg: 717
average dmg: 14.34

Cleave:
highest hit: 28
lowest hit: 9
total dmg: 980
average dmg: 19.6

Great Cleave:
highest hit: 40
lowest hit: 18
total dmg: 1407
average dmg: 28.14

Power Attack + Boast + Cleave
highest hit: 37
lowest hit: 20
total dmg: 1443
average dmg: 28.86

[Krelar]

using the same rules as before, with these exceptions: i only made one pass per, instead of three (i'm impatient. >.> ) and for the sake of eliminating glancing blows as a possibility, test was performed with a single plain-jane longsword (damage 1-8) purchased from the vendor in the harbor. character was a freshly rolled iconic 13 bard/2 rogue with only the freebie gear, no buffs, 16 str at time of test.

base damage:
highest hit: 13
lowest hit: 6
total dmg: 474
average dmg: 9.48

Frozen Fury:
highest hit: 20
lowest hit: 7
total dmg: 686
average dmg: 13.72

Boast:
highest hit: 21
lowest hit: 9
total dmg: 717
average dmg: 14.34

Cleave:
highest hit: 28
lowest hit: 9
total dmg: 980
average dmg: 19.6

Great Cleave:
highest hit: 40
lowest hit: 18
total dmg: 1407
average dmg: 28.14

Power Attack + Boast + Cleave
highest hit: 37
lowest hit: 20
total dmg: 1443
average dmg: 28.86

1-8 means an average of 4.5 damage so cleave, boast and, frozen fury should all add about 4.5 and great cleave should add about 9 damage.

That very much looks like cleave is giving +2[W] and great cleave is giving +4[w] (Quick delete this thread before a dev notices and nerfs it ;))

[MindCakes]

1-8 means an average of 4.5 damage so cleave, boast and, frozen fury should all add about 4.5 and great cleave should add about 9 damage.

That very much looks like cleave is giving +2[W] and great cleave is giving +4[w] (Quick delete this thread before a dev notices and nerfs it ;))
Here's hoping they take the usual approach and declare this WAI and just update the text...

Nice job testing it, hero (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero).

[Rykka]

Training Dummies are Vulnerable to Cleave Typed damage.

[katz]

Here's hoping they take the usual approach and declare this WAI and just update the text...

Nice job testing it, hero (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NiceJobBreakingItHero).

dang you. i just spent all morning sucked into TV tropes... i finally got out, and you sent me right back!

i am, however, suddenly disappointed that DDO bards aren't mentioned in the "spoony bards" article. :(