How good is the silver longbow?

[Waaye]

Most threads on this forum state that the silver longbow is the best bow for low level players. This did not seem to agree with my experience so I decided to test the claim.

The first experiment was to go to the desert in Demon Sands and kill the the same five mobs while counting the shots needed to bring them down.

The average number of shots for the desert test were:

Silver - 4.0;
Elements (Air) - 4.5;
Thornlord - 3.2;
new bow - 4.2;

In the desert Thornlord worked the best for me and the others were about the same.

Then I tried the same plan with the Duergar in the mine at Atraxia's.

Those results:

Silver - 6.0;
Elements (Air) - 5.2;
Thornlord - 5.6;
new bow - 5.4;

It should be noted that the only bow to have a critical hit in the mine was Elements (Air) which reduced the count slightly. The silver bow had twice the chance of a critical hit but silver won't crit if the arrow don't hit and the silver bow missed more times than the others.

In the mine the +5 bows worked best, followed by the +4 Thornlord, and the +3 silver bow in last place.

My sample size of five is small but still valid. If anyone is interested in the subject then please repeat the experiment and post your results.
Thanks for reading.

[Qhualor]

So good that when people did their math comparisons pre-MOTU that it was in the list with GS and Thornlord. It was considered a top 3-5 in a short list, including epic bows.

[ValariusK]

Here's the thing about the Silver longbow. It has a base crit of 10% for 3x damage. Most other bows are 5% for 3x. It's better than keen BECAUSE it stacks with improved critical. Thus you're talking about 20% crits for 3x damage, which is exactly the profile of a khopesh when you think about it.

This means that any arcane archer toys you have the go off crits (or which CAN crit, like slaying arrow in the middle of your manyshot), will be a lot better than otherwise.

[Raoull]

Improved crit profiles are very hard to rate as general purpose weapons.

If you have no bow str / dex to dam.... you'd look at the silver longbow completely differently than someone with a 50 Str and bowstr. That extra +20 base damage means an extra +5 damage on the silver longbow just due to to crits. Any other sources of bonus damage, including seeker, similarly separate them. In an extreme example, a silver bow will do, on average, 50 more damage with a Slaying arrow than a standard crit profile bow just due to this effect.

[Waaye]

[...] when people did their math comparisons[...]
Qhualor, are you saying that no one bothered to take a few minutes and field-test the claims for something as important as an archer's bow?


[...]This means that any arcane archer toys you have the go off crits (or which CAN crit, like slaying arrow in the middle of your manyshot), will be a lot better than otherwise.
Silver won't crit if the arrows don't hit and in higher level quests +5 bows hit more often than +3 silver bows. Can you devise an experiment to test your hypothesis and post the results?

[redspecter23]

Qhualor, are you saying that no one bothered to take a few minutes and field-test the claims for something as important as an archer's bow?


Silver won't crit if the arrows don't hit and in higher level quests +5 bows hit more often than +3 silver bows. Can you devise an experiment to test your hypothesis and post the results?

The math was done and it looked legit. You don't have to trust the numbers. If you find that +5 hits so much more than +3, then it may be best to look at other ways of raising your attack value so that element is lessened or removed. Obviously, if you're shooting at non evil or non crittable targets then Silver Longbow loses much of it's punch. As mentioned, the higher your damage mod and crit effects, the more useful the Silver Bow will be. It might be important to mention your character build and level for comparison.


Your sample size seems very, very small making it hard to use as evidence one way or the other. You might have to kill hundreds of mobs with each bow to get some decent numbers in a field test. You're testing a bow which relies on crits, but your sample size was low enough that only one bow scored one crit. Very weak numbers.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

What people forget is that "Holy" is only good for "evil" monsters. Many monsters are neutral.
Plus some have DR to take into account.

Many are also immune to crits.

But if DR is not an issue and the monster is Evil, andcan be critted, the Silver Long Bow does quite well.

Plus I think the new one has a red augment slot as well... (right?)

[Qhualor]

Qhualor, are you saying that no one bothered to take a few minutes and field-test the claims for something as important as an archer's bow?

my searchfu isn't very good. I did try to find some posts that had a good comparison to some of the bows in the game at the time, but you can easily read them yourself just browsing through some of the old threads that talk about the Silver Bow. in every one of those comparison threads, though, that bow is listed along side Thornlord, GS, alchemical, Unwavering Ardency and even when the Silver Flame bow was released. one thing you have to also include is like what some of the others are talking about that can increase damage and boost more crits from bows. some of it will be affected by enhancements, gear and feats that wont always apply to certain builds since they might not have access to them.

in your case, you haven't even said what kind of build you are and that can make a big difference. for the longest time Thornlord was considered THE best bow in the game for archer types.

[Waaye]

The math was done and it looked legit.[...]
Where did they get the formulae? DDO is proprietary and I can not find the equations they are using anywhere. Even without the math did no one ever bother to actually test the claims empirically?


Your sample size seems very, very small making it hard to use as evidence one way or the other.
It is small but valid. "Math was done" has a sample size of ZERO! More data would be great and that is why I invited everyone to do their own testing and post their results.

Even with my small sample size the bows are working just as would be expected in a D&D-based game. The + of a weapon is important because it increases the chance to hit in addition to adding to the damage. In areas with lower-level mobs like the desert where the bow miss chance is the same Thornlord worked better because of its high base damage and the silver bow could not crit the undead. In other low-level areas the silver bow might be better. It does not matter much because low-level monsters are no great threat to higher-level characters.

In more difficult areas, however, the +5 bows pull ahead of the others because they miss less often. Silver won't crit if the arrows don't hit. At least I have never seen critical damage on a miss.


[...] Silver Long Bow does quite well.
But how well? Can you quantify it? Please devise an experiment and post the results so we can all see how good the bow is.

[redspecter23]

Where did they get the formulae? DDO is proprietary and I can not find the equations they are using anywhere. Even without the math did no one ever bother to actually test the claims empirically?


It is small but valid. "Math was done" has a sample size of ZERO! More data would be great and that is why I invited everyone to do their own testing and post their results.

Even with my small sample size the bows are working just as would be expected in a D&D-based game. The + of a weapon is important because it increases the chance to hit in addition to adding to the damage. In areas with lower-level mobs like the desert where the bow miss chance is the same Thornlord worked better because of its high base damage and the silver bow could not crit the undead. In other low-level areas the silver bow might be better. It does not matter much because low-level monsters are no great threat to higher-level characters.

In more difficult areas, however, the +5 bows pull ahead of the others because they miss less often. Silver won't crit if the arrows don't hit. At least I have never seen critical damage on a miss.


But how well? Can you quantify it? Please devise an experiment and post the results so we can all see how good the bow is.

Over 20 attacks (assuming the mob takes holy damage and has 0% fort, ideal situation for Silver Longbow)
We'll also assume that whatever you are attacking is hit on a 2 or higher and that you have improved crit: ranged

Silver Longbow 1d10, 17-20 x3

1 - miss
2 - 8.5 dmg (1d10 is average 5.5 damage +3 enhancement bonus)+ str mod +2d6 holy
3 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
4 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
5 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
6 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
7 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
8 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
9 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
10 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
11 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
12 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
13 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
14 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
15 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
16 - 8.5 dmg + str mod +2d6 holy
17 - 3(8.5) dmg + 3(str mod) +2d6 holy
18 - 3(8.5) dmg + 3(str mod) +2d6 holy
19 - 3(8.5) dmg + 3(str mod) +2d6 holy
20 - 3(8.5) dmg + 3(str mod) +2d6 holy

= 229.5 + 27(str mod) +133 holy over 20 attacks


Thornlord 1.5(1d8+2) 19-20 x3

1 - miss
2 - 13.75(1d8+2 damage is 6.5 average damage +4 enhancement bonus) + str mod
3 - 13.75 + str mod
4 - 13.75 + str mod
5 - 13.75 + str mod
6 - 13.75 + str mod
7 - 13.75 + str mod
8 - 13.75 + str mod
9 - 13.75 + str mod
10 - 13.75 + str mod
11 - 13.75 + str mod
12 - 13.75 + str mod
13 - 13.75 + str mod
14 - 13.75 + str mod
15 - 13.75 + str mod
16 - 13.75 + str mod
17 - 13.75 + str mod
18 - 13.75 + str mod
19 - 3(13.75) + 3(str mod)
20 - 3(13.75) + 3(str mod)

316.25 + 23(str mod)

Assume a very low str mod of 5 and we get the following average damage per hit

Silver Longbow - 497.5 over 20 attacks or 24.875 per attack

Thornlord - 431.25 over 20 attacks or 21.5625 per attack

Any extra positive modifier to your damage mod or seeker only pulls the Silver Longbow further ahead. It's highly unlikely anyone would have a str mod as low as +5, but even if they did, Silver Longbow is better for targets it does full damage against. If you're using +4 or greater arrows, the Silver Longbow pulls ahead more. If you have any "on crit" effects, the Silver Longbow pulls ahead again due to larger crit range.

The Thornlord has a very nice base damage and will do better against non crittable targets and those that don't take holy damage.

The main point of your concern seems to be the extra "to hit" value associated with the Thornlord or +5 bows. In theory, this might be an issue, but getting a high enough bonus to hit on a 2, at least in mid level content where these bows would be compared, is not hard to do if you invest heavily into it. Accuracy item, max dex boosts, heroism or greater heroism, etc. In my above example, even if you missed on a 1 or 2 with the Silver Longbow (accounting for the -1 enhancement bonus compared to the Thornlord) the Silver Bow is still ahead (23.875 damage per hit on the Silver Longbow compared to 21.5625 on the Thornlord).


*forgive me for any math mistakes as this was done very quickly


Silver won't crit if the arrows don't hit. At least I have never seen critical damage on a miss.



You're suggesting that when you roll a 17+, you're missing the mob? If that's the case, you have bigger issues. It's possible you roll 17+ but then fail the confirmation roll by 1 or 2 points which the other bows wouldn't have an issue with, but seeker bonus should make that a non issue.

[Waaye]

[...]*forgive me for any math mistakes as this was done very quickly
Yes, I read the theoretical stuff and my silver bow must be busted because it never worked that well.

Theory is irrelevant because only actual damage can bring down a mob or a boss.

Of course the only way to test how the bows will work for low-level characters is to actually test them using a low-level character. With high-level characters the chance to miss with the bows will be the same and the silver bow will look better than the +3 bow it really is.

[redspecter23]

Yes, I read the theoretical stuff and my silver bow must be busted because it never worked that well.

Theory is irrelevant because only actual damage can bring down a mob or a boss.

Of course the only way to test how the bows will work for low-level characters is to actually test them using a low-level character. With high-level characters the chance to miss with the bows will be the same and the silver bow will look better than the +3 bow it really is.

Like I said, you don't have to believe the math, but the numbers are accurate. Perhaps your bow is broken. Perhaps the game is broken. Theory math is perfect unless something else in the system has failed. I can only go by what I know. If you feel there is some hidden -10 hit penalty on the Silver Longbow, I can't account for that with my numbers. You'll have to do some more thorough testing to confirm. I won't post in game tests because I don't personally think the game engine is broken in this case. If you feel it is, bug report it. This is a game built on math. All the numbers are there and the results are conclusive.

[ValariusK]

It is very easy as a ranger to basically never miss. That enhancement that does spot, listen and search in the arcane archer tree ALSO does to hit. With that, a respectable dexterity, and the full BAB that you have as a ranger (and the fact that unless you're a tier-5 DWS, you AREN'T taking power attack to hit penalties), means that you're rarely if ever going to miss except on a 1. If you still miss, add a little +attack, there are lots of decent items with a little added as a seasoning (like the goggles of perception). On my cleric, with 3/4 BAB, I found a +6 accuracy item useful. But this isn't pen & paper, hitting isn't usually an issue for serious combatants. By epic levels, you'll pretty much always be walking around with greater heroism anyway and often several other buffs that affect to hit.

[Ancient]

It is small but valid. "Math was done" has a sample size of ZERO!
While you can take the position any data is valid data, for a sample size that small... any conclusion is invalid.

[Waaye]

[...]Theory math is perfect [...]

Okay, if that is true then it must agree with the observed data. Why hasn't a single response included any observed data?

[Waaye]

While you can take the position any data is valid data, for a sample size that small... any conclusion is invalid.

Okay, so take a L10 toon and test the bows on some L10 monsters and post your results. For me the bows work exactly like +3, +4, and +5 bows should be working. It is most of the advice on these forums that is broken.

[redspecter23]

It's quite clear you don't want any actual proof that is contrary to your personal anecdotal evidence. I'm not sure what you want us to say other than to agree completely with you that all the numbers in the system and item descriptions are in error and your anecdotal evidence and small sample size is completely correct. That line of thinking would require all logic to be thrown right out the window.

The math doesn't lie. Assuming all values correct, the numbers I've given you are correct. The only other conclusion is that some other variable is incorrect. Be it an error on an item. An error in the combat code or... something else.

[IlmethSoultaker]

Okay, so take a L10 toon and test the bows on some L10 monsters and post your results. For me the bows work exactly like +3, +4, and +5 bows should be working. It is most of the advice on these forums that is broken.

So your complaint is that you've found something that works better for your character than an item people said is really good? Silver Longbow is good. In different situations, other weapons may be better. There is a lot of this in DDO.

And while you may have posted some results, your sample size is small enough that I'd still trust the math. RNGs, and all that.

[Waaye]

So your complaint [...]

The OP was not a complaint only my observations that the bows were working as they should and curious if others had observed similar performance. So far not a single response has been on that topic which must be some kind of record even for these forums.

[IlmethSoultaker]

The OP was not a complaint only my observations that the bows were working as they should and curious if others had observed similar performance. So far not a single response has been on that topic which must be some kind of record even for these forums.

Then I'll respond to the OP, even though most people DID respond to the title of your thread: Yes, I have seen a weapon that isn't usually as good as another performing better than those others in too-small sample sizes. Considering that probably biggest benefit to the Silver Longbow is its critical profile (particularly with Improved Critical feat) and you completely discounted that by having such a small sample that only ONE of FOUR bows even registered a critical, I'd say it's incredibly likely to have that occur.

Additionally, you've sort of implied that your measure of how "good" something is depends on how many shot it takes to kill an average trash mob. How about the damage done on red names? Did you try things with different sources of DR? What arrows were you using? Did you try it with any +4 or +5 arrows?

Either you've done an incredibly incompetent job testing, or you're practicing some trolling skills, because it sounds like you actually tested for about 30 seconds on some trash just so you could come on the boards and state that everyone is wrong, even though you haven't done a sufficient amount of testing to discredit anything that has been said.

[Lonnbeimnech]

If there was a weapon that did one damage per hit, and on a 20 it did one million. It would do an average of 50,000.9 damage.

Bit if you swung it 4 times, and didn't roll a 20, it would seem pretty lousy.

[Waaye]

Then I'll respond to the OP.[...]

When will you do that? You still have not posted any empirical test data. Of course, to be valid it would have to come from someone with a 28 point build character on their first time through. I doubt anyone that has posted so far is in that category.

[Waaye]

[...]Bit if you swung it 4 times, and didn't roll a 20, it would seem pretty lousy.

Your analogy is not clear to me. For the average player the +5 Elements (air) bow will hit more often than the +3 silver bow and when it does hit it will do more base damage. If the silver bow does hit it has twice the chance of doing an extra 12-39 critical damage. The Air bow crits half as often but for an extra 18-51 plus 2-20 electrical. Am I understanding how that works?

[FestusHood]

Your analogy is not clear to me. For the average player the +5 Elements (air) bow will hit more often than the +3 silver bow and when it does hit it will do more base damage. If the silver bow does hit it has twice the chance of doing an extra 12-39 critical damage. The Air bow crits half as often but for an extra 18-51 plus 2-20 electrical. Am I understanding how that works?

The math being used by the game engine is the same math that has been tested by players, and posted in this thread.

Yes, in an extremely small sample size, the math may not, in fact probably won't work out. You are asking people to perform empirical tests to see if the math holds up. You haven't done that yourself yet.

You sound like someone who flipped a coin twice, came up heads both times and then proclaims " See that? the math is garbage".

[Therrias]

Your analogy is not clear to me. For the average player the +5 Elements (air) bow will hit more often than the +3 silver bow and when it does hit it will do more base damage. If the silver bow does hit it has twice the chance of doing an extra 12-39 critical damage. The Air bow crits half as often but for an extra 18-51 plus 2-20 electrical. Am I understanding how that works?

DDO works differently than P&P. Missing on attacks is not an issue for a ranged combat build. The difference in accuracy between a +3 bow and a +5 bow is not 10% (like in P&P), it's something like 2%.

[Waaye]

The math being used by the game engine[...]
That math is proprietary and no one outside of Turbine should know what it is. Are you saying that some players have disassembled the client in violation of the EULA?


DDO works differently than P&P. Missing on attacks is not an issue for a ranged combat build. The difference in accuracy between a +3 bow and a +5 bow is not 10% (like in P&P), it's something like 2%.

Is such a build even possible for someone with 28 points on their first time through without sacrificing something important? Let us suppose that the bows did hit at the same rate. The silver bow crits twice as often for just over half of the damage. When both bows are not critting the the Air bow is doing considerably more damage. That is exactly what I observed. The Air bow brought the at-level mobs down significantly faster than the silver bow. What does your testing show?

[Ancient]

You sound like someone who flipped a coin twice, came up heads both times and then proclaims " See that? the math is garbage".

Exactly, and if they had put half the time into collecting data that they put into arguing in this thread... they would have seen the initial data was not right.

[Ancient]

That math is proprietary and no one outside of Turbine should know what it is. Are you saying that some players have disassembled the client in violation of the EULA?

It shows you the dice roll, it isn't rocket science.

[sephiroth1084]

Yes, I read the theoretical stuff and my silver bow must be busted because it never worked that well.

Theory is irrelevant because only actual damage can bring down a mob or a boss.

Of course the only way to test how the bows will work for low-level characters is to actually test them using a low-level character. With high-level characters the chance to miss with the bows will be the same and the silver bow will look better than the +3 bow it really is.
What does your character look like? What is your Str? Your Dex? Your Wis (if you use Zen Archery)? What feats do you have? These are incredibly relevant to your performance.

While I don't have a running log of usage with various bows, I can say that, across 3 archer lives, I've noticed that the Silver Longbow performs distinctly better than any other bow I have until I hit level 16--that includes the Thornlord, the Bow of Elements (Air), a variety of <element> of Greater Bane bows, and a Lit II greensteel.

The performance difference is marked because I get far more 1-shot kills with the Silver Longbow than with any of the others--soloing through the Desert at level 11 and 12 I was frequently one-shotting stuff with the Silver Longbow, while requiring 2, 3, or 4 shots from the others bows most of the time. Sure, when it doesn't crit the Silver Longbow is a bit weaker, and if you compare killing a monster or two with a variety of bows where none of them are criting, then the Silver Longbow is going to look a little weaker (although, +2 to-hit and damage shouldn't make much of a difference when the Silver Longbow is still rolling a 1d6 more than the Bow of Elements).

A test of a handful of shots isn't at all conclusive. That's like flipping a coin 5 times, getting heads all 5 times, and concluding that you have a 100% chance to flip heads, or declaring that the coin must be weighted, or rigged, or otherwise not functioning properly. Statistics don't play out their relevance over incredibly small sample sets.

That math is proprietary and no one outside of Turbine should know what it is. Are you saying that some players have disassembled the client in violation of the EULA?
The math isn't a mystery here. We, the gaming community, are aware of the to-hit and AC formulas in the game, and we know how crits are determined, and how damage is determined. The most you could say about there being a mystery is that we don't really know exactly how Turbine's random number generator works, how good it is, in light of the fact that RNGs are a misnomer, being incapable of producing truly random numbers.



Is such a build even possible for someone with 28 points on their first time through without sacrificing something important? Let us suppose that the bows did hit at the same rate. The silver bow crits twice as often for just over half of the damage. When both bows are not critting the the Air bow is doing considerably more damage. That is exactly what I observed. The Air bow brought the at-level mobs down significantly faster than the silver bow. What does your testing show?
The Bow of the Elements is 1.5[1d8] +5, +1d6, +2d10 on crits = 12 + 10 on crits
The Silver Longbow is 1d10 +3, +2d6 = 12.5

Those are the average results of just the base damage on the bows, not accounting for anything else...what they add up to. Against evil targets, the Silver Longbow deals more damage, all on its own, before even figuring in crits. The base dice are close to being the same if you aren't adding any effects to them (BoE's is 4.5 + 2.25, while Silver's is 5.5), while Silver is rolling an additional d6. The BoE is rolling slightly higher crits, but the Silver is getting twice as many of those.


The Bow of the Elements is not dealing significantly more damage, and the conclusion you've reached isn't even supported by your own numbers, which show all of your bows to be about 1 shot apart at max on how long it takes to kill something: 4 shots vs. 5 isn't an incredibly large margin, especially if you consider that the creatures you're attacking could be at only a sliver of HP at the end of the 4th shot on the ones where number 5 downs them.

If you want to just use whichever bow you feel most comfortable with, go right ahead, but that doesn't mean you're using the best bow for the situation.

Here are my calculations using Barrage (a handy DPS calculator for DDO), assuming a base damage bonus of +15 on the Silver Longbow (and more for the bows with a higher enhancement bonus)--15 would be, say, a +8 bonus from Str (16 base +6 item +2 tome +2 Ram's Might...a Rage potion could replace the tome; racial or class enhancement bonuses to Str could cut the requirements down a bit as well), +3 from the enhancement, +4 Deadly easily enough, though the configuration could change in a few ways to still reach that value. No Seeker, and no other effects worked in (if you have Arcane Archer Elemental Imbues up, the Silver Longbow gains more of a bonus thanks to more crits). The numbers are presented for each bow with and without Improved Critical:

silver 30.23
silver IC 34.33

elements 28.81
elements IC 31.74

thorn 27.04
thorn IC 29.61

Those are average damage per shot figures, accounting for crits and such over, I think, 20 shots.

[Waaye]

It shows you the dice roll, it isn't rocket science.

Honestly, it shows you a text field that could say Damage: Purple + Petunias. The actual calculation may or not be the same. How can anyone know for sure without empirical testing. Even if the text is correct the Air Bow damage range should be 6.5 -17, shouldn't it?

Still not one response that is on topic, How odd.

[sephiroth1084]

Is such a build even possible for someone with 28 points on their first time through without sacrificing something important? Let us suppose that the bows did hit at the same rate. The silver bow crits twice as often for just over half of the damage. When both bows are not critting the the Air bow is doing considerably more damage. That is exactly what I observed. The Air bow brought the at-level mobs down significantly faster than the silver bow. What does your testing show?

When to-hit was still strictly based on the d20, then, yes, a +2 difference meant a 10% difference in to-hit.



Monster’s chance to hit: (Monster’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2)
Player’s chance to hit: (Player’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2) + 20% proficiency bonus, rounded to nearest 5%


So, let's say your target has a 50 AC and you have a 30 to-hit with the Silver Longbow, and a 32 with the Bow of Elements.
Silver Longbow is at a 60% chance to hit. (30+10.5)/(50*2) + 0.2 = 0.605 rounded to nearest 5% is 60
Bow of the Elements is at a 60% chance to hit. (32+10.5)/(50*2) + 0.2 = 0.625 rounded to nearest 5% is 60

You can plug in differing numbers as you choose--I couldn't find the exact AC for the specific monsters you were facing, but it doesn't really matter all that much if you raise or lower those values, because the formulas hold up pretty well.

Assume +30 to-hit vs. AC 100:
Silver 40% (.4025)
Elements 40% (.4125)

That's a difference in AC of 50 points, yet only a difference in success for hitting of 20%. How do yo think a +2 bonus to-hit is going to make an impact there?

[sephiroth1084]

Still not one response that is on topic, How odd.
Read my posts: not only do I offer you numbers, but I also give you some anecdotal data from my experience using a variety of bows.

[Ancient]

Honestly, it shows you a text field that could say Damage: Purple + Petunias.
The hit roll... You did claim air was better because it hit more.

[Waaye]

[...]You can plug in differing numbers as you choose[...]

Why would I do that when I don't know where the equations came from? For dice games there is a lot of rounding. With computers rounding a floating point number takes extra time and loses information. It is easier and better not to round the value unless really needed for some reason. The empirical data suggests the values were not rounded and your supposition is incorrect. What does your actual in-game testing show?

[sephiroth1084]

Why would I do that when I don't know where the equations came from? For dice games there is a lot of rounding. With computers rounding a floating point number takes extra time and loses information. It is easier and better not to round the value unless really needed for some reason. The empirical data suggests the values were not rounded and your supposition is incorrect. What does your actual in-game testing show?

Which equations? Damage equations? Those are easy: take the base damage die for your weapon (d10 for Silver Longbow), and take its average value (5.5), then add bonuses to that, like the weapon's enhancement, Str, etc...figure those for 19 hits and 1 miss for your automatic miss on a rolled 1. Add the multiplied figures for crits for the number of crits in 20 swings.

If you mean the to-hit formulas, I don't recall where the d20 comes into our to-hit bonus now, but those are the official formulas given to us by Turbine when they went and changed everything over a year ago.

And I did provide you with some empirical observation: the Silver Longbow gets more 1-shot kills than the other bows. I also showed you that it has virtually the same damage as the Bow of the Elements just looking at their base damage profiles. It is an observed, and mathematically proven, fact that very small bonuses for to-hit make no actual difference in game play, unless they push you over the cusp into the next 5% bracket--so, at best, your Bow of the Elements is giving you a +5% boost in success at landing attacks. Back when we were still working off the d20, no one would ever suggest using an overall stronger weapon over one with a +1 to-hit advantage (5%) unless you couldn't hit your target otherwise (going from 95% miss chance to 90%).

[Edit] To be more clear, I ran some whole quests, and about half of a few different explorer areas trying one bow of the group--in particular, Silver Longbow vs. Lit II, which is [1.5]1d8, +5 enhancement, Holy, Shocking Burst, Shocking Blast (basically Shocking Burst a second time with an additional 3d6 electric damage on vorpals), and Lightning Strike (average of about 450 damage on 2% of attacks), which seems like it should be much better, but it wasn't. Not by the numbers, and not by my experience. I think it worked out to be a little ahead according to Barrage, at my base damage for those tests (I think in the mid-20s/low-30s for that), until I removed the Lightning Strike, and the Lit II fell behind. The Lit II is a little better against a boss with a ton of HP, because if you're attacking 100, 500, 1,000 times, that 2% is going to come up often enough to be relevant, but against normal mobs, even those that may take a dozen hits to drop, having the more reliable crits (10% more) proved more worthwhile, because it meant killing more mobs more quickly, instead of one mob really fast, and the extra crits are less likely to end up just being overkill the way the Lightning Strike could be. That was a tough pill to swallow--that my ml 12, raid-crafted weapon worth several million plat, and the product of a dozen or more runs through The Shroud was simply not as good as my ml 6 (now 8) bow from the end chest of a short-ish quest that could be purchased on the Auction House for a hundred thousand plat, but it was the case all the same, both by the numbers, and on paper. If I had fewer on-crit effects (I had several), the Lit II would have been a bit further ahead...maybe.

[IlmethSoultaker]

You still have not posted any empirical test data.

Neither have you. A sample of 5 with only one of your bows hitting for critical damage isn't empirical data. Why are you so bent on arguing when you're the one trying to figure out which weapon is better? You know what your set up (which still hasn't been told to anyone), and you've only done 5 samples.

Like I said, it is incompetent testing by what seems like someone who doesn't actually care to find the answer, but wants to argue that their sample size of 5 is better than anecdotal evidence from someone else who has played multiple lives. A small sample like that is far worse than anything anecdotal. You didn't even test enough to get a critical hit from each bow. That's pathetic.

[Waaye]

Which equations?[,,,]

Every equation posted in this thread without anything to show that Turbine is using those calculations in DDO.

6 X 9 = 42 is also an equation but there may be something fundamentally wrong with it.

Why is no one taking a few minutes to go into the game with a L10 character and try the different bows to see how they compare? Then they can post the results and we can all look at some actual data and stop debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or whatever.

Of course that probably happened quite some time ago and nobody wants to post their results. How odd.

[Ancient]

You want results, make a good first effort. 100 shots each bow, on the same type of mob. Record the hit roll, hit/miss result and the damage.

Then others will know you are serious.

[Qhualor]

this thread went about 1 page too long. /facepalm

[sifubob]

this thread went about 1 page too long. /facepalm

I agree with that... this thread is pointlessly stupid...

[Vordax]

Every equation posted in this thread without anything to show that Turbine is using those calculations in DDO.

6 X 9 = 42 is also an equation but there may be something fundamentally wrong with it.

Why is no one taking a few minutes to go into the game with a L10 character and try the different bows to see how they compare? Then they can post the results and we can all look at some actual data and stop debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or whatever.

Of course that probably happened quite some time ago and nobody wants to post their results. How odd.

Ok.. I just went out with a level 10 ranger.

Killed 5 mobs each with these 3 bows:

Silver bow:
Got crits on the first shot on 4 of the 5 mobs and killed them in one shot. The remaining mob took 3 shots.
Average shot per kill: 1.4

Thornlord:
4 mobs killed in 3 shots, got a crit on one and killed it in 2.
Average shots per kill: 2.8

Bow of elements:
5 mobs 4 shots each, no crits.
Average shots per kill: 4.0


Now its been tested and the evidence shows that the silver bow is best!

[Waaye]

Then others will know you are serious.

For me there was no doubt the silver bow was not hitting well any more. That is why I replaced it with Elements (Air) which hit significantly more often. Then an "expert" told me that the silver bow was better so I actually went and tested it.
Here is the raw data from the test;
Desert pass 1:
Silver - 5,4,4,2,4
Air - 2,5,6,4,5
Thornlord - 4,2,2,1,3
new bow - 4,1,4,5,4

Desert pass 2:
Silver - 4,2,5,3,7
Air - 3,3,5,8,4
Thornlord - 4,4,4,4,4
new bow - 4,3,5,4,8

Mine in Ataraxia:
Silver - 4,4,5,10,7
Air - 3,6,6,6,5
Thornlord - 4,5,6,7,6
new bow 6,5,5,5,6

This is actual data and includes "flyers" but you have provided no data at all. Do you even have a 28 point L10 toon to repeat the experiment and get some results to compare? It should only take a few minutes.

This thread was never about what the silver bow hypothesis is but was always about testing the claim. The silver bow is not the best choice for my toon and I was just wondering if that was true for anybody else. I was not trying to trick anybody by creating the thread and am surprised that every response just repeats the theory. How odd that there is not a single on-topic response..

[Vordax]

This thread was never about what the silver bow hypothesis is but was always about testing the claim. The silver bow is not the best choice for my toon and I was just wondering if that was true for anybody else. I was not trying to trick anybody by creating the thread and am surprised that every response just repeats the theory. How odd that there is not a single on-topic response..

From what I can gather from these numbers, your toon has an 8 strength, doesn't use a seeker, strength, or deadly item. Does not have improved critical range.

So instead of making a thread that titled "silver bow sucks" you should make a thread titled "my toon sucks how can I make it better".

[Waaye]

Ok.. I just went out with a level 10 ranger.

Killed 5 mobs each with these 3 bows:

Silver bow:
Got crits on the first shot on 4 of the 5 mobs and killed them in one shot. The remaining mob took 3 shots.
Average shot per kill: 1.4

Thornlord:
4 mobs killed in 3 shots, got a crit on one and killed it in 2.
Average shots per kill: 2.8

Bow of elements:
5 mobs 4 shots each, no crits.
Average shots per kill: 4.0


Now its been tested and the evidence shows that the silver bow is best!

Thanks for posting something on-topic. Please post the raw data so we can see if there are any flyers. Is your L10 toon a 28 point build? What were the mobs and where were they? If I can get to the location I will go and try my luck there.

It is surprising that the +4 Thornlord is so far ahead of the +5 Elements (Air). My experience with those bows and at-level mobs is the reverse.

[Spoonwelder]

For me there was no doubt the silver bow was not hitting well any more. That is why I replaced it with Elements (Air) which hit significantly more often. Then an "expert" told me that the silver bow was better so I actually went and tested it.
Here is the raw data from the test;
Desert pass 1:
Silver - 5,4,4,2,4
Air - 2,5,6,4,5
Thornlord - 4,2,2,1,3
new bow - 4,1,4,5,4

Desert pass 2:
Silver - 4,2,5,3,7
Air - 3,3,5,8,4
Thornlord - 4,4,4,4,4
new bow - 4,3,5,4,8

Mine in Ataraxia:
Silver - 4,4,5,10,7
Air - 3,6,6,6,5
Thornlord - 4,5,6,7,6
new bow 6,5,5,5,6

This is actual data and includes "flyers" but you have provided no data at all. Do you even have a 28 point L10 toon to repeat the experiment and get some results to compare? It should only take a few minutes.

This thread was never about what the silver bow hypothesis is but was always about testing the claim. The silver bow is not the best choice for my toon and I was just wondering if that was true for anybody else. I was not trying to trick anybody by creating the thread and am surprised that every response just repeats the theory. How odd that there is not a single on-topic response..

In your desert passes - did you perchance go to the undead side....because if you did undead mobs are crit immune and that would explain the lack of damage. Ataraxia - dwarf mine or Troll caves - dwarfs are high fort mobs in ataraxia (generally speaking) and again would explain your results.

You are being patently obtuse on this, your, topic. People have requested your build information, have provided you with good math that the game (based upon thousands of people playing the game and getting results consistent enough with the stated math that they haven't documented a problem with the combat math) AND have explained to you why the Silver Bow is situationally better than the other options.

If you WANT to have your mind made up that Silver Bow isnt better then fine we can't change your opinion.

If you are serious and are actually interested in statistics/math then you would listen to everyone else and do the work yourself. Go out - in game - sample size 100 minimum - list the exact mob you are attacking and your specific results (die roll, damage done, STR, DEX, weapon used). Once you are done you can come back and make some grand pronouncement. No one here needs to do this to satisfy you. You are acting like a chump.

[Spoonwelder]

Oh and another thing - if you are missing due to the bow's enhancement bonus difference - it's not the bow - it's the build and your gear. Regardless of 28 pt build or not. A decent build with decent easy to buy on AH gear can get to the 'hit on a 2 or better' level such that missing isn't the issue. And when missing isn't the issue it is then solely about the damage profile of the weapon and the related math.

[Waaye]

If you are serious and are actually interested in statistics/math[...]

From the beginning I made it clear I am interested in empirical data and not theory. The historical formulae that may or may not have been used in a game that no longer exists is not relevant. There is nothing wrong with my build or my gear but there is something wrong with recommending the silver bow to the average first-timer when they can't possibly get that kind of performance from the bow.

[Spoonwelder]

From the beginning I made it clear I am interested in empirical data and not theory. The historical formulae that may or may not have been used in a game that no longer exists is not relevant. There is nothing wrong with my build or my gear but there is something wrong with recommending the silver bow to the average first-timer when they can't possibly get that kind of performance from the bow.

You dolt - statistics IS the analysis of empirical data. YOUR data means nothing without analysis and the application of proper statistical rigor - otherwise it is junk data that allows no conclusions to be drawn.

Going out and firing 271 arrows from 4 different weapons is not statistically significant - your method is rubbish, your conclusion is questionable and thus NOBODY is taking you up on your 'challenge' to test it ourselves.

We don't need to - go do the effing work yourself and IF you do it properly then you can come back and report your findings with detailed support to the conditions of your test. So far you have provided none of that.

With that - I am out on this topic.

[Vordax]

Thanks for posting something on-topic. Please post the raw data so we can see if there are any flyers. Is your L10 toon a 28 point build? What were the mobs and where were they? If I can get to the location I will go and try my luck there.

It is surprising that the +4 Thornlord is so far ahead of the +5 Elements (Air). My experience with those bows and at-level mobs is the reverse.

Do you understand that with a sample size low as yours and mine that it is meaningless? For the bow of elements, I probably rolled a lot of 1's on the d8 for damage. If you think the formulas that have been used, tested and proven no longer are valid do some testing. 100 arrows from each bow is not enough. You should strive for 1000 arrows per bow. Record the roll you made, the to hit bonus and the damage done.

Come up with your own data, don't be lazy, get out there and start testing your theory. Currently all you have is anecdotal evidence.

And what do you mean by "flyers"?

32 point build, but is a twf build I dusted off, so high strength lower dex, used a free feat swap to change improved crit slash for improved crit range. Had no enhancements selected either. I think 34 str and 25 dex with buffs. Bloodstone for seeker, had a deadly 4 item in my bank so equipped that too.

[Vordax]

You dolt .....

What he said, go test it thoroughly. Recommend you take videos of your tests, because with the way you are talking in this thread I wouldn't trust your data without it.

[Waaye]

Do you understand that with a sample size low as yours and mine that it is meaningless? For the bow of elements, I probably rolled a lot of 1's on the d8 for damage. If you think the formulas that have been used, tested and proven no longer are valid do some testing. 100 arrows from each bow is not enough. You should strive for 1000 arrows per bow. Record the roll you made, the to hit bonus and the damage done.

Come up with your own data, don't be lazy, get out there and start testing your theory. Currently all you have is anecdotal evidence.

And what do you mean by "flyers"?

32 point build, but is a twf build I dusted off, so high strength lower dex, used a free feat swap to change improved crit slash for improved crit range. Had no enhancements selected either. I think 34 str and 25 dex with buffs. Bloodstone for seeker, had a deadly 4 item in my bank so equipped that too.

No, five is generally accepted as the minimum valid sample size. For me it was very simple. Used the silver bow from L8 to L10. By L10 it was missing a lot so I replaced it with Elements (Air) and the problem with missing was reduced.

Then an "expert" told me the silver bow was better than all my bows including the one I made and he knew nothing about. So I decided to test the silver bow in the field and found it wasn't the best, at least not for my character. After that, I created this thread to see if any other average first-timer was having the same problem with the silver bow. Now I don't know if other players like me aren't having the same problem or if there are just aren't many first-timers left. In the game I just don't see newcomers around anymore it is just alts with their fancy twink gear.

My data is empirical to me but it may be anecdotal to you. if you want empirical data then you must go and get it for yourself. A "flyer" is an anomalous data point that is discarded for being too far out of range. For bow testing discarding data can skew the results so I don't do it. If you didn't discard any data then I can use what you have posted the way it is.

Do you think your toon can always crit with the silver bow 80% of the time or was it just a lucky streak? It seems there are some players with gear worth millions of platinum that seem to crit a lot with their bows. That isn't me or any other average first-timer but I think it can be done.

Heard there are some people that can solo raids on high difficulty too. That REALLY isn't me.

Thanks for posting the data and happy questing!

[cru121]

Enjoy your new bow.

[Lonnbeimnech]

No, five is generally accepted as the minimum valid sample size. For me it was very simple. Used the silver bow from L8 to L10. By L10 it was missing a lot so I replaced it with Elements (Air) and the problem with missing was reduced.

Then an "expert" told me the silver bow was better than all my bows including the one I made and he knew nothing about. So I decided to test the silver bow in the field and found it wasn't the best, at least not for my character. After that, I created this thread to see if any other average first-timer was having the same problem with the silver bow. Now I don't know if other players like me aren't having the same problem or if there are just aren't many first-timers left. In the game I just don't see newcomers around anymore it is just alts with their fancy twink gear.

My data is empirical to me but it may be anecdotal to you. if you want empirical data then you must go and get it for yourself. A "flyer" is an anomalous data point that is discarded for being too far out of range. For bow testing discarding data can skew the results so I don't do it. If you didn't discard any data then I can use what you have posted the way it is.

Do you think your toon can always crit with the silver bow 80% of the time or was it just a lucky streak? It seems there are some players with gear worth millions of platinum that seem to crit a lot with their bows. That isn't me or any other average first-timer but I think it can be done.

Heard there are some people that can solo raids on high difficulty too. That REALLY isn't me.

Thanks for posting the data and happy questing!

If you don't have improved critical ranged, don't have bow str or have a very very low str score and no seeker item and no deadly item, then you want a bow with high base damage and a lot of procs (shock, holy, lacerating etc)

If you have a toon that is build to do range, ie has improved crit range bow str etc, then silver bow does more damage on average because it crits more often.


The to hit bonus of bows and arrows do not stack. If you have a +1 bow and +5 arrows, that's a +5 to hit, if you have a +4 bow and +3 arrows, that's a +4 to hit.

Arcane archer core enhancements give a +1 to the enchantment bonus of your weapon, that does NOT stack with the weapon. Which means that any bow in the hands of an arcane archer will be +6 at level 20, at level 10 they will be +3.

In other words, don't worry about what the + is on the bow. It only matters if you aren't a range build but are using a bow anyway. Though I suspect your character isn't a range build, or if it is, it's very poorly built.

[aristarchus1000]

You guys really just got trolled.

Please don't feed the trolls.

[Waaye]

Enjoy your new bow.Thanks, cru121, it is a great bow. Elements (Air) was good until L12 and "Invaders!" solo where i wiped on normal. It just wasn't possible to kill all the mobs at range with the bow. Then I made a new bow from an old bow with instructions from Fedora1 and a recipe from linshao.

I think my bow is quite good for a L12 first timer.

What do you think?

+5 Paragon 14.85 base. 5% crit X 3 + shock + pure good + Festival Icy Burst

It works very well for a random drop and it allowed me to finish "Invaders!" without dying. My test results did not really show how well it works but I did not want to keep testing until i obtained the results I wanted.

Happy questing!

[Lonnbeimnech]

Thanks, cru121, it is a great bow. Elements (Air) was good until L12 and "Invaders!" solo where i wiped on normal. It just wasn't possible to kill all the mobs at range with the bow. Then I made a new bow from an old bow with instructions from Fedora1 and a recipe from linshao.

I think my bow is quite good for a L12 first timer.

What do you think?

+5 Paragon 14.85 base. 5% crit X 3 + shock + pure good + Festival Icy Burst

It works very well for a random drop and it allowed me to finish "Invaders!" without dying. My test results did not really show how well it works but I did not want to keep testing until i obtained the results I wanted.

Happy questing!


All of the top dps weapons are top dps weapons because of expanded crit range or increased crit multiplier or both. With all the various ways to increase base damage (str score, weapon enchantment, deadly item, weapon specialization etc), crit profile is the most important thing to look for in a weapon.

Second would be the ability to bypass fortification for those times you are fighting high fort mobs.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Precision

Cooldown: 30 seconds
Usage: Active, Toggled Stance
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13+, base attack bonus of +1 or higher

Description

While using Precision mode, you gain +5% to hit and reduce the target's fortification against your attacks by 25%.



This works with ranged, and can be on at the same time as archers focus stance or improved precise shot.

[Lonnbeimnech]

You guys really just got trolled.

Please don't feed the trolls.

Nah, he is a new player that doesn't understand game mechanics.

It's like those old threads where someone did the math and shows that bastardswords out dps khopeshes because of higher base damage (which is only true on a str dumped toon with a masterwork weapon).

[Waaye]

Nah, he is a new player that doesn't understand game mechanics.
Nah, he is a new player that was bullied in cyberspace for asking a question. Please continue.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Nah, he is a new player that was bullied in cyberspace for asking a question. Please continue.

A lot of people explained why you are wrong, that's not the same as bullying.

[FestusHood]

You seem to think that maybe there is some sort of hidden math going on in the program regarding attack and damage rolls. There really isn't. As stated previously, the only math going on that isn't available to the public is how their random number generators generate numbers. My personal experience shows that while the randomly generated numbers might not be perfectly the same as what true random would be, it is close enough.

You keep mentioning the to hit difference between the bows. Your pseudo-randomly generated attack numbers are plainly visible at the bottom right of the screen. The only way the two bows would be different is if one is hitting while the other is missing with the same to hit rolls. With the current to hit formula, a difference of +2 attack is likely to be virtually negligible, meaning that in most cases both bows will hit and miss with the exact same rolled to hit numbers. Yes, on a few occasions, one may hit on, for example, a roll of a 5, while the other would miss, but that won't happen every time with only a difference of +2 to hit.

As far as the damage goes, the numbers for the damage float right up from the monsters. These numbers, in my observation, are completely consistent with the expected numbers from the damage stats listed on the bow. Maybe you think that these floating numbers aren't being applied correctly to the actual hit points of the mobs you are attacking. My experience is that they are, and i can see the exact hit points of quite a few different mobs in the game.

Again, this math is not hidden or mysterious. It does operate according to the theory of probability. How many times should you expect to flip a coin to end up with a perfect distribution of heads and tails? The answer? Infinity.

Many ignorant gamblers have gone broke while obsessed with the idea that numbers are "due". They seem to think that past results somehow metaphysically affect future results, with the idea that they must even out, and especially in a time frame that is observable to them. It doesn't work like that. That's why mathematical probabilities, when understood, are actually better than statistical samples, even with fairly large numbers.

[Oxarhamar]

Nah, he is a new player that was bullied in cyberspace for asking a question. Please continue.

You bullied you own self by attacking those experienced players who know the ins and outs of the game.



Silver longbow hands down is better if you properly gear in most situations. If there was a better bow the experienced players would be using it.

[sephiroth1084]

Every equation posted in this thread without anything to show that Turbine is using those calculations in DDO.

6 X 9 = 42 is also an equation but there may be something fundamentally wrong with it. What?! What does this even mean? We're not making up the game mechanics--I've offered examples of how the game actually works. I'll add two more:

Critical hits are determined by the d20 (or converted to a straight percentage), with every point representing a 5% chance to crit. Thus, a 20/x3 weapon crits 5% of the time, a 19-20 crits 10% of the time, and a 17-20 crits 20% of the time. That's how the thing works in DDO.

Also, when you make attack rolls, your character cycles through an iterative attack progression of +0, +5, +10 (I can't recall whether it's +0, +0, 5, 10, or 0, 5, 10, 15, because I don't pay all that much attention these days). Additionally, when you attack while moving, you also suffer a -4 penalty on to-hit. For a melee character, the iterative attack bonuses are easier to notice because they come attached to your attacks in the chain, but with a bow, all of your attacks look the same, so the only ways to tell which are getting which bonus is to look at the die rolled on your screen or view your combat log.

This can result in your having a skewed sense of what is missing more often: if you need to essentially roll a 15 to hit your target with a +0 bonus, and roll an 11, you'll miss. If you then roll the same number on your next attack, but have the +5 iterative attack bonus, you'll hit.

Your small sample set is irrelevant because of its size, because you simply aren't looking at enough examples to get a sense of the larger trends that can be showing up: a 20% chance for something to occur may or may not pan out over 5 attacks, but over 100 you should be seeing something in that area, and over 1,000 you should be seeing something very close to 20%. If you're talking about misses, you need to be recording what your total rolls were; simply saying one thing missed while another hit isn't useful, because you may have just "rolled" poorly for one and well for the other. And, again, we're talking about a variable of more than 20 digits, which really needs several times that number in test cases before yielding any sort of reliable figure.


Why is no one taking a few minutes to go into the game with a L10 character and try the different bows to see how they compare? Then they can post the results and we can all look at some actual data and stop debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, or whatever.

Of course that probably happened quite some time ago and nobody wants to post their results. How odd.
Because none of us feel the need to go and physically test something that we've tried and observed over years of playing just to satisfy the guy on the forums being unreasonably obtuse for no reason?

No, five is generally accepted as the minimum valid sample size. WHAT? By whom? For what? 5 is nowhere near statistically relevant for almost anything. Certainly not for stuff like we're talking about here. There are better statisticians than I on the forums who have performed rigorous testing for many facets of DDO that didn't work out as expected at 100 tests, or even 500, but at 1,000, or in some cases 10,000, the overall trends became apparent. If an effect triggers 2% of the time, do you think 5 tests will make any sort of determination about that? You'd need at minimum 50 tests in order to have any sort of idea whatsoever, but really would needs hundreds, or thousands, to pin down that figure.



Do you think your toon can always crit with the silver bow 80% of the time or was it just a lucky streak? It seems there are some players with gear worth millions of platinum that seem to crit a lot with their bows. That isn't me or any other average first-timer but I think it can be done. What does this even mean? Being new or not to DDO is totally irrelevant to how often your weapon scores a critical hit. The only questions are whether you have Improved Cirtical (ranged) or not, and rolling enough to-hits to see the trend to some reliable degree. That's it. Your percentage doesn't change just because you've been playing the game longer, and it doesn't change with any other gear, really. There are a few bows in the game that have a base 19-20 crit range, like the Silver Bow, and a few abilities that can expand that besides Improved Critical (tier 5 Fighter Kensei enhancement, an epic destiny ability), but that's it. If I take your bows, they'll function the same way for me as they do for you, mechanically speaking.


Heard there are some people that can solo raids on high difficulty too. That REALLY isn't me.

Absolutely irrelevant to this discussion.

Really, why are you being so stubbornly wrong? Are you 10 years old? Are you paranoid? Do you think numbers are out to get you, or that everyone who presents numbers are just trying to pull one over on you?

If you want to prove something, go clear out the entire Desert once with each of the different bows, excluding the undead side, recording every attack roll (what the numbers are for that die roll: with the actual roll, and the bonus being added to it), whether you hit or missed, whether you crit or not, how many attacks it took to kill the creature, and what creature it was specifically (a drow acolyte is going to be different than a drow stalker, etc...). That'll be a few hundred creatures you'll have killed.

[jalont]

Okay, so take a L10 toon and test the bows on some L10 monsters and post your results. For me the bows work exactly like +3, +4, and +5 bows should be working. It is most of the advice on these forums that is broken.

What to say.

1.) Never believe advice from these forums. It's sort of an in-game joke that forum posters don't actually play the game because what they say is the opposite of reality.

2.) Theory math is always correct unless there is a breakdown in the system.

3.) Honestly, the enhancement bonus shouldn't make much of a difference, even at low level. I would think if you're noticing a difference then it's a badly built toon. That being said, even if you have a badly built toon, the math has already been shown.

4.) Your sample size is entirely too small.

[MartinusWyllt]

No, five is generally accepted as the minimum valid sample size....

Please cite this so that for my next plant infection experiment (measuring via disease index, generally comparing a mutant pathogen to wild-type) I can claim that I don't need to do 100 plants per treatment...I could do 20 times more treatments that way with the same number of plants!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

So use +5 arrows.

Edit: Use whatever bow you want to.

Experiment on your own.

I do not crunch numbers, and I take other people's numbers with a grain of salt.
I believe... other people's numbers, but I also know that few statistics take into account all of the variables.

I have a pretty good understanding of most DDO aspects. I have played extensively for years.

I do not claim the Silver Bow is the best, but it is very nice.

I typically do not use it for neutral monsters, or undead.

If I have a smiter, disruptor...greater bane...etc. I use that instead.

Try both.
Use whichever you like best.

But I have been playing long enough to know that critting often usually means more DPS. (but not always)


I also understand that people miss more often than the number crunchers admit to. But fo rbows, you have to take the arrows into account too. And Enhancements.

Level of character as well.

Too many variables to give you a one size fits all answer.

But go test it on your character and decide which one you like best.

[Krelar]

A "flyer" is an anomalous data point that is discarded for being too far out of range.


The word you're looking for is outlier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier). But if you only heard someone say it once and never saw it written down I can see how it could sound like "flyer".

If you'd like to see a good example of how to test things I would look at this post for weapon and guard proc rates (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/354768-Weapon-and-Guard-Proc-Rates). Pay special attention to the sample size.

No one is going to test it for you because no one else has any reason to believe there is anything wrong at this point. You can either do a proper test yourself and post the results, or you can stop worrying about convincing other people and use whatever weapon you feel like.

[Ancient]

It just wasn't possible

You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means. Even if you relied only on cannith crafting to build everything but the silver bow... you could still be equipped well enough the silver bow comes out ahead, and you could kill at a faster rate.

If on the other hand, you are asking for people to collect data on the bow performance on intentionally undergeared toons... I can sympathize with the majority that seems uninterested in participating, or in the results.

[Saekee]

well you should be about level 14 by now so grab the Bow of Sinew (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bow_of_Sinew)--awesome crit range, crit multiplier, etc.

[cdr]

Bows are terrible in heroic, especially at low/mid levels. Don't use them.

/thread

[MartinusWyllt]

well you should be about level 14 by now so grab the Bow of Sinew (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bow_of_Sinew)--awesome crit range, crit multiplier, etc.

I like that bow, I just forget sometimes to swap it out until after I get confused when I fail to find a trap box...generally have my +search item in my trinket slot, too, rather than the symbiont.

[Lonnbeimnech]

well you should be about level 14 by now so grab the Bow of Sinew (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bow_of_Sinew)--awesome crit range, crit multiplier, etc.

I tried that bow once, shot it 4.8 times and didn't kill anything, then vendored it.

Went back to my +4 axiomatic long bow of plant bane, I roll 20s more often with it...

[FAQ]

I tried that bow once, shot it 4.8 times and didn't kill anything, then vendored it.

Went back to my +4 axiomatic long bow of plant bane, I roll 20s more often with it...

Don't you be hating on plant bane :)

[Saekee]

I tried that bow once, shot it 4.8 times and didn't kill anything, then vendored it.

Went back to my +4 axiomatic long bow of plant bane, I roll 20s more often with it...

+1

[Munkenmo]

Bows are terrible in heroic, especially at low/mid levels. Don't use them.

/thread

Ninjad :(

[PhotoRob]

No, five is generally accepted as the minimum valid sample size.

Ok, you have now revealed yourself to be either thoroughly ignorant of statistics or flat out trolling. (As if there was any serious doubt before this.)

There is no statistician on the planet that would consider five data points sufficient when testing a random system. 500 would be considered barely acceptable. And regardless of what the minimum acceptable data size is, more data is *ALWAYS* better.

[AtomicMew]

[QUOTE=Waaye;5242532] A "flyer" is an anomalous data point that is discarded for being too far out of range.

One of those most epic self-pwns I have seen on these forums. You've just made it clear to everyone that you don't understand the concepts you're trying to pretend to.

To be more specific, 5 is clearly not an acceptable sample size for the effect size you're looking for. It is possible to define an acceptable sample size based on an estimated effect size. Show this calculation. Otherwise, don't state as a fact things you know you are just making up. If you're actually interested in learning, there are many free online statistics courses.

[sephiroth1084]

The word you're looking for is outlier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier). But if you only heard someone say it once and never saw it written down I can see how it could sound like "flyer".

If you'd like to see a good example of how to test things I would look at this post for weapon and guard proc rates (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/354768-Weapon-and-Guard-Proc-Rates). Pay special attention to the sample size.

No one is going to test it for you because no one else has any reason to believe there is anything wrong at this point. You can either do a proper test yourself and post the results, or you can stop worrying about convincing other people and use whatever weapon you feel like.
MAN! I'd forgotten just how big a sample size Vanshilar too. Hundreds of thousands of tests per proc! Days of footage to sort through.

well you should be about level 14 by now so grab the Bow of Sinew (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bow_of_Sinew)--awesome crit range, crit multiplier, etc.

I haven't checked my Bow of Sinew in a while...is it 1.5[d8] these days? If it's not, the Silver Longbow with a +4 Seeker item is about even with Sinew, and with a +6 Seeker is ahead of it at low base damage values (I tested with a 20 base), and still only slightly behind Sinew at a high base damage (I tested with a 50 base). That said, Sinew can more easily bypass more types of DR, although there aren't all that many creatures with DR that Silver Longbow + metal-typed arrows or the AA's Metalline Arrows can't handle.

[Pala-forged]

There is nothing wrong with my build or my gear

OP, 7/10. You got a fair few posts and were a convincing troll, good job.

As for everyone else, come on - nobody could be that ignorant.

[Pala-forged]

I haven't checked my Bow of Sinew in a while...is it 1.5[d8] these days? If it's not, the Silver Longbow with a +4 Seeker item is about even with Sinew, and with a +6 Seeker is ahead of it at low base damage values (I tested with a 20 base), and still only slightly behind Sinew at a high base damage (I tested with a 50 base). That said, Sinew can more easily bypass more types of DR, although there aren't all that many creatures with DR that Silver Longbow + metal-typed arrows or the AA's Metalline Arrows can't handle.

Just 1d8, but it's +8 seeker. (at least according to wiki).
More to the point, it has +1 crit multiplier on 19-20, which makes it useful. Ish.

Regardless of the fact OP is trolling, what ever happened to the good ol' lit II longbow? D:

[Myrddinman]

So a Dwarf walks into a bar, with a Silver Longbow, a Thornlord, and a Bow of the Elements(Air)...

[Ancient]

There is nothing wrong with my build or my gear
Then post it. What is your tohit with the bow, damage mods, seeker, what feats.

[sephiroth1084]

Just 1d8, but it's +8 seeker. (at least according to wiki).
More to the point, it has +1 crit multiplier on 19-20, which makes it useful. Ish.

Regardless of the fact OP is trolling, what ever happened to the good ol' lit II longbow? D:

I know the other stats for Sinew. Like I said, if you have a Seeker +4 item and a lowish damage bonus, Silver Longbow is basically even with Sinew, and if you have a +6 Seeker item, it's ahead until you get to a pretty high damage bonus.

As for Lit II, if you have a moderate damage bonus all of the expanded crit range bows are better if you discount Lightning Strike, and if you have enough of a bonus/enough on-crit effects, even with Lightning Strike figured in the Silver Longbow is ahead. Personally, while I think the LS is cool, I just can't count on it being relevant--too many times it sparks on a creature at 10% HP or some such, while crits are more likely to be coming out when they're fully relevant. The only time I'd use Lit II if it's ahead would be against big bosses that had enough HP that you're likely to see multiple Lightning Strike procs on them...so, 10s of thousands of HP at a minimum.

[DakDeFrosted]

Honestly, it shows you a text field that could say Damage: Purple + Petunias. The actual calculation may or not be the same. How can anyone know for sure without empirical testing. Even if the text is correct the Air Bow damage range should be 6.5 -17, shouldn't it?

Still not one response that is on topic, How odd.

I couldn't read any more responses, my brain was hurting. It's like trying to convince a chicken that the earth is round.

[Pala-forged]

As for Lit II, if you have a moderate damage bonus all of the expanded crit range bows are better if you discount Lightning Strike, and if you have enough of a bonus/enough on-crit effects, even with Lightning Strike figured in the Silver Longbow is ahead. Personally, while I think the LS is cool, I just can't count on it being relevant--too many times it sparks on a creature at 10% HP or some such, while crits are more likely to be coming out when they're fully relevant. The only time I'd use Lit II if it's ahead would be against big bosses that had enough HP that you're likely to see multiple Lightning Strike procs on them...so, 10s of thousands of HP at a minimum.

My friend once said that.. We both ran separate calculations and came to similar conclusions (I ignored the burst effect, deeming it too small to matter)... Lit II is ahead for pretty much every heroic toon. Requires a **** high +dmg bonus for silver (or Sinew) bows to be better.

Having said that, that's mainly due to lightning strike. Take that out, they're pretty similar for most toons. (at least until epics.)
I just use the lit II because I have to justify making it :\

[Turtlsdown]

Expert troll is successful. Even after someone pointed and yelled "Hark! A troll!", he sucked you back in. Step back, take a breath, re-read some of this thread. Now you see?

[Vanquishedfo]

OP I have played as a melee ranged hybrid for years, and since it came to be in the game the Silver Longbow is among the finest of options if as others have stated your foe is crittable and evil in alignment. However some factors are build dependent, one your natural to hit stat bonus for your bow and possession of the feat bow strength is largely not an option. Now days with extreme stat ranges possible at an earlier level then ever before has made this a true viability to build a heavy str/dex archer build.

Another factor you keep babbling on about is the higher plus of a bow. In DDO the plus of the bow is replaced by the + of the ammo if it is greater, the do not stack, nor is one for to hit and the other to dmg. its one or the other here. Hence a real arcane archer( the only kind of archer worth talking about) will always be providing their own higher + then many bows can offer at the same lvl.

Its not really blabbing on though, you seem silly enough if you think anything less then at least a test of 100 attacks on a static target like a training dummy can yield any kind of math worth talking about. Any kind of math geek, let alone a math amateur like myself builds on the very basis of MATH which is numbers, the more and the bigger then better, and probability statistics demand thousands of tests to be considered valid or useful in any meaningful way.

We used to have some serious number crunchers here who even when it rubbed raw on the ego of their favored builds provided some great math, One was known as Shade, and between his own two top builds od a DPS sorc and a DPS ****** str barbie doll was the arcane archer, and in much content the silver bow provided a very viable poor mans tool for the build even prior to the red slot on it.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Waaye...
It seems like your "to hit" is the real issue.

Like most AAs and ranged toons I am sure you move around quite a bit while pewpewpewing amiright?

You are also no doubt aware that firing bows while moving incurs a -4 to hit penalty.

If you are a pure ranger you probably wouldn't notice too much if....
-If you have a High Wisdom and use Zen Archery.
or
-If you have a High Dexterity.

If you are a multi-class with monk levels using Zen Archery & High Wisdom or any other low BAB class you still will notice some misses due to loss of BAB.

Get whatever Wis (if Zen Archery) or Dex gear (if not). Accuracy/Deadly/Seeker etc etc.

These things will increase your "to hit" and you will be better able to take advantage of the expanded crit profile of the Silver Bow.

However, for most if not ALL level 8-12 content it really is a complete wash. Once your quest, build and game knowledge increases you can level with any ol' crafted Holy of Bleed or +5 of whatever and realize it make little to know difference.

It doesn't matter what objective or subjective view you take on the numbers....If your "to hit" is suffering (for whatever reason) then it doesn't matter whether its a Howitzer or Water Balloon.

[Therrias]

Are you proficient with longbows?

Do you have Bow Strength?

[Seikojin]

I use a silver bow because I have them. For running new lives, they will be very useful at level and beyond for a while. The holy helps with some dr situations when levelling to their next tier of best in slot.

[Arianka]

OP, 7/10. You got a fair few posts and were a convincing troll, good job.

As for everyone else, come on - nobody could be that ignorant.

was wondering when someone woud figure it out.

[Spoonwelder]

OP, 7/10. You got a fair few posts and were a convincing troll, good job.

As for everyone else, come on - nobody could be that ignorant.
You sir have too much faith in your fellow man. The bell curve tells us that for every genius there is a trilobyte out there.

The failure of us forumites is to believe we can educate the "un-educatable"(not a real word I know).

[Book_O_Dragons]

A small data sample can allow you to draw some valid conclusions from it. For instance in this (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425602-AC-Dodge-Concealment-Incorporeality-and-you) thread we determined that AC has an effect in EE content but we did not find all the data we needed with so few data points. Note that a review of the gear used was needed to determine that the expected results were in error and the revised expected results matched with the data set.

Saying to go AA does not work at the moment the AA core abilities do not increase the enhancement bonus of bows that already have an enhancement bonus.

•Core Arcane Archer enhancement bonuses to bows do not overwrite the already-present enhancement bonuses on bows.