Devs- This is exactly what we do not need

[Shmuel]

Experience for 1 quest has been decreased:

The Jungle of Khyber
Previous Base XP on Epic Normal: 42,693
New Base XP on Epic Normal: 23,299


VON3 gives what I would consider appropriate xp/min for epic levels. It is the most popular quest in the game for epic leveling and has more lfms than any other quest. the one (and only) quest where I regularly see people of all skill and experience levels as players and all guilds mingling socially. Why do we need to make the things people like the most in this game less likeable? That does not seem like a good way to keep your customers happy.

[LOOON375]

They are cutting it by 50%. It will still be top or close to top in the game in regards to XP/min.

I will still run in into the ground, because the XP will still be THAT good.

[Shmuel]

Maybe. But again, a quest everyoen likes, and absolutely no one complains about. Why change something that otherwise everyone can give an easy thumbs up to?

[Cetus]

That seems to be the motto around here.

Oh our customers like it?

We surely can't have that!

[Yalinaa]

Doesn't matter. Did you read this?

"Epic Completionist is now available:

You gain another Twist of Fate slot once you have 3 Epic Past Lives in each Epic Destiny Sphere (12 Epic Past Lives total).
Like all other Twist of Fate slots, you must pay Fate Points to unlock and upgrade it.
Note that the 3 Epic Past Lives in an Epic Destiny Sphere can be 3 stacks of a single Epic Past Life, 1 stack each of three different Epic Past Lives, or 1 stack of one Epic Past Live and 2 stacks of another.
If you have already attained Epic Completionist, you should automatically gain the additional Twist of Fate slot."

Forget the xp. We NEED comms of valor! Who doesn't want a 4th slot??!! It will be a HUGE benefit. 12 eTR is a BIG grind for it, but still, a 4th slot!! That is something all of the powergamers will want achieve, and others as well. End game??!! Who wanna waste any seconds on lvl 28 (lvl 30), when something as shiny as a 4th slot will be on the horizon. No loot can be compared to it. So yes, forget the xp. And start to grind comms!:)

[Drwaz99]

Doesn't matter. Did you read this?

"Epic Completionist is now available:

You gain another Twist of Fate slot once you have 3 Epic Past Lives in each Epic Destiny Sphere (12 Epic Past Lives total).
Like all other Twist of Fate slots, you must pay Fate Points to unlock and upgrade it.
Note that the 3 Epic Past Lives in an Epic Destiny Sphere can be 3 stacks of a single Epic Past Life, 1 stack each of three different Epic Past Lives, or 1 stack of one Epic Past Live and 2 stacks of another.
If you have already attained Epic Completionist, you should automatically gain the additional Twist of Fate slot."

Forget the xp. We NEED comms of valor! Who doesn't want a 4th slot??!! It will be a HUGE benefit. 12 eTR is a BIG grind for it, but still, a 4th slot!! That is something all of the powergamers will want achieve, and others as well. End game??!! Who wanna waste any seconds on lvl 28 (lvl 30), when something as shiny as a 4th slot will be on the horizon. No loot can be compared to it. So yes, forget the xp. And start to grind comms!:)

Good things you aren't a fish. You get distracted by shinies very easily.

[Yalinaa]

True!:)

I could use a 5th or 6th slot as well.... Make it happen, Turbine!:)

[Vellrad]

Doesn't matter. Did you read this?

"Epic Completionist is now available:

You gain another Twist of Fate slot once you have 3 Epic Past Lives in each Epic Destiny Sphere (12 Epic Past Lives total).
Like all other Twist of Fate slots, you must pay Fate Points to unlock and upgrade it.
Note that the 3 Epic Past Lives in an Epic Destiny Sphere can be 3 stacks of a single Epic Past Life, 1 stack each of three different Epic Past Lives, or 1 stack of one Epic Past Live and 2 stacks of another.
If you have already attained Epic Completionist, you should automatically gain the additional Twist of Fate slot."

Forget the xp. We NEED comms of valor! Who doesn't want a 4th slot??!! It will be a HUGE benefit. 12 eTR is a BIG grind for it, but still, a 4th slot!! That is something all of the powergamers will want achieve, and others as well. End game??!! Who wanna waste any seconds on lvl 28 (lvl 30), when something as shiny as a 4th slot will be on the horizon. No loot can be compared to it. So yes, forget the xp. And start to grind comms!:)

Do you know you need to be level 28 to epic reincarnate?
Do you know what is needed to get to lvl28?
That's XP. 6,600,000XP to be more specific.

Do you know that higher level quests gives more comms?
Do you know you can't enter all quests until you're certain level?
Do you know that you finish quests faster with less resources on higher difficulties with acces to more levels, that brings more feats and better gear?

You will get comms faster if you will stop wasting time in lvl22 epics at level 20, and start doing high level quests ASAP.

[Qhualor]

so how many are moving across town to Wiz King? better get it while its good before it gets the axe too.

[Jasparion]

Experience for 1 quest has been decreased:

The Jungle of Khyber
Previous Base XP on Epic Normal: 42,693
New Base XP on Epic Normal: 23,299


VON3 gives what I would consider appropriate xp/min for epic levels.

Yes. All quests should give 12k/min XP and then we get sit at cap and complain about how there is nothing to do. And how we get to level 28 with 400 comms and then need to farm 3,800.

[Ivan_Milic]

Turbine is doing players a favor here, you will cap now with more vcomms.

[Enoach]

We are talking less then 20K off the base of a quest that many people run in 10 minutes.

A large part of the XP in this Quest comes from all the optional objectives that popup as well as the ones that are always present.

While this won't be the XP-poluzza it was, I don't think people will stop running it as it will still be in the top XP/Min quest list.

I also think the 17 quests that got bonuses is a good thing - A few even nearly doubled their XP.

[NaturalHazard]

Maybe. But again, a quest everyoen likes, and absolutely no one complains about. Why change something that otherwise everyone can give an easy thumbs up to?

Lol this is the DDO forums people complain about everything its what this place is for, yes people where complaining about the XP being too high :D.

We even complain about the people complaining and about the people who complain about the people complaining :D.

[Drwaz99]

so how many are moving across town to Wiz King? better get it while its good before it gets the axe too.

Moving? Wiz King was a second home for me thru my epic lives.

I agree that Von3 needed an adjustment, but 50% is super heavy handed.

[Qhualor]

Turbine is doing players a favor here, you will cap now with more vcomms.

maybe, but people were using Von 3 for destiny xp. people will probably move over to Wiz King now for the fast completions, if not already.

[Shmuel]

Yes. All quests should give 12k/min XP and then we get sit at cap and complain about how there is nothing to do. And how we get to level 28 with 400 comms and then need to farm 3,800.

Or we could consider that the problem is not that xp is too easy, but that the number of comms people need is extremely much super too high in a painfully transparent attempt to make people buy hearts.

Nerf today, make a "solution" available in the ddo store tomorrow. Not like we've never seen this before.

[Yalinaa]

Do you know you need to be level 28 to epic reincarnate?
Do you know what is needed to get to lvl28?
That's XP. 6,600,000XP to be more specific.

Do you know that higher level quests gives more comms?
Do you know you can't enter all quests until you're certain level?
Do you know that you finish quests faster with less resources on higher difficulties with acces to more levels, that brings more feats and better gear?

You will get comms faster if you will stop wasting time in lvl22 epics at level 20, and start doing high level quests ASAP.

- I get 6.6m xp pretty fast, without using pots, voice or doing optionals. I usually get below 3000 comms in that time frame, and I do a lot of EE.
- Yes, I know that higher level quests gives more comms. Sorry, if I don't wait hours everyday for EE what goes up or something that never fills and takes a lot of time, because when I log on, I want to play. I won't stand on the guild ship and just look pretty.
- You can't enter at lvl 24 to EE Storm horn, but can enter at lvl 20 to EE Gianthold. I like the epic elite GH walkups, they are fast, can shortman, and give good amount of comms.
- I use 2 characters on epic and iconic TRing, did 6 lives already, so I have some experiment. Least resources are usually the most boring ones. Yeah, you can do EE Stormhorn for 60 comms, but as u surely know, those quests take time. EE Rusted blades is 5 minutes for 35 comms, and you can do it solo anytime, on any toon. Same with Demands, Death Undone, Graves etc. On paper the highest level quests give the most comms, but in game, the highest comms / min are NOT those quests.

[PsychoBlonde]

I'm indifferent--I've run Von3 so much that I can now practically do it in my sleep. I don't mind branching out a little.

[badbob117]

Ouch. chopped down in freaking half. That is quite the nerfhammer pummel it took. Did the optional xp get nerfed to?

I wonder if wiz king is next on the chopping block?

[Chai]

If it was awesome for 5+ years, nerf it. :p

[NaturalHazard]

Ouch. chopped down in freaking half. That is quite the nerfhammer pummel it took. Did the optional xp get nerfed to?

I wonder if wiz king is next on the chopping block?

Start a thread and complain about it, maybe it might be.

[Chai]

Do you know you need to be level 28 to epic reincarnate?
Do you know what is needed to get to lvl28?
That's XP. 6,600,000XP to be more specific.

Do you know that higher level quests gives more comms?
Do you know you can't enter all quests until you're certain level?
Do you know that you finish quests faster with less resources on higher difficulties with acces to more levels, that brings more feats and better gear?

You will get comms faster if you will stop wasting time in lvl22 epics at level 20, and start doing high level quests ASAP.

Nope. Coms per minute can be plowed far more quickly in the mid range, due to faster completion times. I can run three 35 com quests in the same amount of time it takes to run one 60 com quest.

Not to mention getting groups for 60 com quests is a longer wait than getting groups for the 35 com quests.

You also must realize that at level 20 you are locked out of a lot of the higher level stuff.

[Shorlong]

I just ran it on Lam. It was with a toon that had never done it before, done on EH. I was getting 38k for the quest, optionals I was getting around 10k each for, vs 6k on live. I think we'll be fine....

[Ivan_Milic]

, but can enter at lvl 20 to EE Gianthold. I like the epic elite GH walkups, they are fast, can shortman, and give good amount of comms.


No you cant, at 22 you can enter ee gh.


I just ran it on Lam. It was with a toon that had never done it before, done on EH. I was getting 38k for the quest, optionals I was getting around 10k each for, vs 6k on live. I think we'll be fine....

7.2k on live with voice and 4% xp shrine.

[DogMania]

Do you know you need to be level 28 to epic reincarnate?
Do you know what is needed to get to lvl28?
That's XP. 6,600,000XP to be more specific.

Do you know that higher level quests gives more comms?
Do you know you can't enter all quests until you're certain level?
Do you know that you finish quests faster with less resources on higher difficulties with acces to more levels, that brings more feats and better gear?

You will get comms faster if you will stop wasting time in lvl22 epics at level 20, and start doing high level quests ASAP.
And have you any Idea what sort of XP you will need to ETR when the Cap is 30?, as that is where you will ETR from when it goes up so get it done now

[DogMania]

Experience for 1 quest has been decreased:

The Jungle of Khyber
Previous Base XP on Epic Normal: 42,693
New Base XP on Epic Normal: 23,299


VON3 gives what I would consider appropriate xp/min for epic levels. It is the most popular quest in the game for epic leveling and has more lfms than any other quest. the one (and only) quest where I regularly see people of all skill and experience levels as players and all guilds mingling socially. Why do we need to make the things people like the most in this game less likeable? That does not seem like a good way to keep your customers happy.

? on the like the quest, its fast and easy xp at the moment is all and that is why its run so much and nothing to do with being sociable. Do you think that before we had ransack ID and Rusted were continuesly run for xp farming or to be sociable?

[DogMania]

Doesn't matter. Did you read this?

"Epic Completionist is now available:

You gain another Twist of Fate slot once you have 3 Epic Past Lives in each Epic Destiny Sphere (12 Epic Past Lives total).
Like all other Twist of Fate slots, you must pay Fate Points to unlock and upgrade it.
Note that the 3 Epic Past Lives in an Epic Destiny Sphere can be 3 stacks of a single Epic Past Life, 1 stack each of three different Epic Past Lives, or 1 stack of one Epic Past Live and 2 stacks of another.
If you have already attained Epic Completionist, you should automatically gain the additional Twist of Fate slot."

Forget the xp. We NEED comms of valor! Who doesn't want a 4th slot??!! It will be a HUGE benefit. 12 eTR is a BIG grind for it, but still, a 4th slot!! That is something all of the powergamers will want achieve, and others as well. End game??!! Who wanna waste any seconds on lvl 28 (lvl 30), when something as shiny as a 4th slot will be on the horizon. No loot can be compared to it. So yes, forget the xp. And start to grind comms!:)

Yep I read it and its done me a favour as now I only need 3 in Martial, sit back and wait for U21, well maybe not wait anyway

[IronClan]

We even complain about the people complaining and about the people who complain about the people complaining :D.

Stop whining bro.












;)

[NaturalHazard]

Stop whining bro.












;)

Reported for calling me bad names!!!!!!! such an insult!!!!!!

[Phaeton_Seraph]

Maybe. But again, a quest everyoen likes, and absolutely no one complains about. Why change something that otherwise everyone can give an easy thumbs up to?

People have complained about it. They complain that often there are only 3 listings up for their level on the LFMs and 2/3 are VoN3. Or 3/5, or some such.


Oh well. At least the boards will say something different. They'll just get stuck in some other sort of rut... or hamster wheel.

[Kir1]

Experience for 1 quest has been decreased:

The Jungle of Khyber
Previous Base XP on Epic Normal: 42,693
New Base XP on Epic Normal: 23,299


VON3 gives what I would consider appropriate xp/min for epic levels. It is the most popular quest in the game for epic leveling and has more lfms than any other quest. the one (and only) quest where I regularly see people of all skill and experience levels as players and all guilds mingling socially. Why do we need to make the things people like the most in this game less likeable? That does not seem like a good way to keep your customers happy.

You run it on EH in 5-6 mins, it gives around 100k (with optional).

With nerf to exp, it will give 50k for 5-6 mins (with optionals, which are tied to base quest exp). 10k+/min is still great even after "nerf".

[Flavilandile]

You'll still be able to get the XP in the time it takes to reach one of the quest in Faerun... So it's still going to be one of the most frequented quest.

They missed the point as to why we don't run the Faerun quests :
From the Guild Ships they are a long way off, even if you have a key. Between the 3 loading screens ( [ With Key ]1 to reach Eveningstar, 1 to enter the explorer area and 1 to enter quest [ compared to 2 to VON3 ] ) and the running to quest [ ok, Don't Drink the Water is a short hop from entrance point, but the XP are not worth the pain, and the blue 'do not go until all waves are dead' force screens that are a pita, makes the quest unpalatable. ]

[Portalcat]

How quickly people forget that VoN3 got buffed with the heroic XP pass in U20. From the old base, this is probably closer to a 1/3 nerf than 1/2.

Also, 1/2 XP is still good XP/min. It's still good ransacked right now at 40% or 60% penalty - the only reason people farm it twice daily instead of 4 times daily is because of how the ransack phase-out works. I, for one, will still zerg it EN when farming XP after the nerf; with daily playthrough, it will be close to what the second daily run currently gives.




VoN3 was too good and too unbalanced to last, and this was entirely predictable. Instead of dwelling on the nerf, I've already got ideas for farming some of the quests that got substantial buffs.

[deahamlet]

Lol @ Turbine. Instead of making everything else more appealing, let's make it all a grey muck.

Typical.

And I barely ever ran this thing to begin with, but the attitude of Turbine is getting on my last nerve.

[Kalevor]

I like the changes, LFM are always full for a von3, people don't do anything else. Don't misundertand me, i run it almost everyday (it's too good xp to not do it) but it takes 20 min... all that we need is more xp in the other quests. Lots of quest more fun than this but too long and far less xp is not funny.

I mean why greatly reward a quest that easy?

/run and hide behind a rock

[Iriale]

I like the changes, LFM are always full for a von3, people don't do anything else.
No, false. People do other quests. No point in run von 3 and got ransack. A toon runs this quest one, maybe twice in a day. But von 3 is a great quest for pugs: useful for leveling off destinies (or kharma) and you never have to wait long to full the party.

Von 3 may have too much experience, but plays a role. Nerf the xp without fixing the issue of playing in off destinies (which almost everyone hates) is stupid.

Few people complain about von3. Many people complain about how boring is to play in off destinies. It is clear what needs to be fixed first.


Devs, fix the real problem before touching von3!

[Yalinaa]

No you cant, at 22 you can enter ee gh.


I thought that exactly. Until a lvl 20 asked me to accept him. I told him he cant enter at lvl 20. But he did. So it's possible, because I saw it. I usually start at lvl 22 after an eTR, because the saga xp, so didn't try to enter EE GH at lvl 20, so I don't know, how they do it.:)

[Matuse]

If it was awesome for 5+ years, nerf it.

It wasn't. Stop lying.

When the cap was 20, it gave no XP at all.

When the cap was 25, you hit that cap without even trying and without needing to run VoN3 even once. The XP grind of choice was Rusted Blades and Impossible Demands.

VoN3 has only approached being awesome within the last 6 months, and more accurately since U20 when needing E/ITR XP became an issue.

[Kalevor]

No, false. People do other quests. No point in run von 3 and got ransack. A toon runs this quest one, maybe twice in a day. But von 3 is a great quest for pugs: useful for leveling off destinies (or kharma) and you never have to wait long to full the party.

Nonesense.

How can you argue with my personal game experience? all i've said is that when a look at the LFM, there is a LOT of pugs for von3. Never said that ppl run it to ransack.

[silinteresting]

I thought that exactly. Until a lvl 20 asked me to accept him. I told him he cant enter at lvl 20. But he did. So it's possible, because I saw it. I usually start at lvl 22 after an eTR, because the saga xp, so didn't try to enter EE GH at lvl 20, so I don't know, how they do it.:)

this is true i just entered madstone epic elite at level 20 to test it out.

your friend sil :)

[pHo3nix]

so how many are moving across town to Wiz King? better get it while its good before it gets the axe too.

Wiz king is already in my daily runs to get destinies capped. The only real difference from von3 is that you need at least 2 more people to make it really worth running. If it becomes the new von3 it will be nerfed in U22.

[Paleus]

Hard call on this one. Re-running VoN3 was tedious, but players did it because they wanted to replace the tedium of having to spend more time playing different sets of quests over and over again with the tedium of having to play one quest over and over again for a shorter length of time to achieve the same effect they desired.

The same release notes detail a significant number of quests that are getting xp raises. Rebalancing quest XP should be a priority, and bringing quests closer to each other in comparability is a good thing. VoN 3 was well out of the norm for quests. However, like others I feel the cuts here tend to be too much and the raises too little (in most but not all cases). If the end result is that players can expect to spend roughly the same amount of time to achieve equal leveling results as in the past but with greater variety in quest selection, then XP rebalancing will be a good thing for the game. But if the end result of these rebalancing decisions is that players have to spend significantly more game time to achieve similar results, then the end result feels bad (at least from my POV). It would feel cheaply motivated by a focus on encouraging players to buy ways to decrease repetition tedium rather than selling greater variety. (Insert comments about that ship having already sailed).

[pHo3nix]

The same release notes detail a significant number of quests that are getting xp raises. Rebalancing quest XP should be a priority, and bringing quests closer to each other in comparability is a good thing. VoN 3 was well out of the norm for quests.

VoN3 is perfect to farm off destinies, you know, that boring thing we have to do cause we can't always play in our main destiny if we want fate points for twists. It's not von3 that is out of the norm, it's the whole system that should be rebalanced to allow people to play in the destiny they want. Running EH/EN quests is so boring but unless you are allowed to pike in EE it's your only choice to get off destinies xp.

But as usual, instead of fixing the problem, they just break the fix players found by themselves to make ED farming bearable.

[bartharok]

VoN3 is perfect to farm off destinies, you know, that boring thing we have to do cause we can't always play in our main destiny if we want fate points for twists. It's not von3 that is out of the norm, it's the whole system that should be rebalanced to allow people to play in the destiny they want. Running EH/EN quests is so boring but unless you are allowed to pike in EE it's your only choice to get off destinies xp.

But as usual, instead of fixing the problem, they just break the fix players found by themselves to make ED farming bearable.

Lost your easybutton, did you. It made running off destinies way too easy. Now you got to do it slower, and you get a chance to get more comms before 28 as well. Doesnt sound all that broken to me.

Its not like leveling the off destinies is hard, its just slower, and you wont be as powerful.

[Iriale]

Nonesense.

How can you argue with my personal game experience? all i've said is that when a look at the LFM, there is a LOT of pugs for von3. Never said that ppl run it to ransack.
there are a lot of pugs because is popular :P And is popular because is an easy mode of grind in off destinies. People HATE play in off destinies. You can't go to EE or difficult raids in an off destiny.

I can argue because i have my personal experience too xD.

[Iriale]

Its not like leveling the off destinies is hard, its just slower, and you wont be as powerful.
it's boring. And the point of a game is fun. How can anyone think otherwise?

repeat with me: DDO is a game. Not a work.

[Iriale]

Doesn't matter. Did you read this?

"Epic Completionist is now available:

You gain another Twist of Fate slot once you have 3 Epic Past Lives in each Epic Destiny Sphere (12 Epic Past Lives total).
Like all other Twist of Fate slots, you must pay Fate Points to unlock and upgrade it.
Note that the 3 Epic Past Lives in an Epic Destiny Sphere can be 3 stacks of a single Epic Past Life, 1 stack each of three different Epic Past Lives, or 1 stack of one Epic Past Live and 2 stacks of another.
If you have already attained Epic Completionist, you should automatically gain the additional Twist of Fate slot."

Forget the xp. We NEED comms of valor! Who doesn't want a 4th slot??!! It will be a HUGE benefit. 12 eTR is a BIG grind for it, but still, a 4th slot!! That is something all of the powergamers will want achieve, and others as well. End game??!! Who wanna waste any seconds on lvl 28 (lvl 30), when something as shiny as a 4th slot will be on the horizon. No loot can be compared to it. So yes, forget the xp. And start to grind comms!:)
Garbage. The ETR hamstel wheel is pure garbage. A boring and endless grind bad designed (for the average player, very well designed to squeeze money from the powegamer eager to buy boxes and hearts)

Me, i don't want a 4th twist at the cost of months and months of boring grind in off destinies, or buying a lot of expensives boxes. Move on, guys. ETR es pure garbage!!

[pHo3nix]

Lost your easybutton, did you. It made running off destinies way too easy. Now you got to do it slower, and you get a chance to get more comms before 28 as well. Doesnt sound all that broken to me.

Its not like leveling the off destinies is hard, its just slower, and you wont be as powerful.

Considering they are selling xp in the store the easybutton is still there for those willing to spend real $. As long as they sell every kind of easybutton in the store i wouldn't complain about the free ones.

Farming off destinies is not hard, it's boring. If we could always run in our main destiny then maybe people would start running EE for xp more often as well. As it is now, if you are running EE in an off destiny you are a piker.

[slarden]

They are cutting it by 50%. It will still be top or close to top in the game in regards to XP/min.

I will still run in into the ground, because the XP will still be THAT good.

No, simply no.

Jungle of Khyber isn't even the best xp/min before the nerf, but it's one of the top 5 for sure.

[Iriale]

Farming off destinies is not hard, it's boring. If we could always run in our main destiny then maybe people would start running EE for xp more often as well. As it is now, if you are running EE in an off destiny you are a piker.
this!

[Chai]

It wasn't. Stop lying.

When the cap was 20, it gave no XP at all.

When the cap was 25, you hit that cap without even trying and without needing to run VoN3 even once. The XP grind of choice was Rusted Blades and Impossible Demands.

VoN3 has only approached being awesome within the last 6 months, and more accurately since U20 when needing E/ITR XP became an issue.

Wrong, von 3 has been awesome for longer than 5 years, well into the era before epics. Are you telling me that it wasn't awesome for TRing, or even leveling first life toons quickly?

If you are counting epics only, VON 3 has been awesome the entire existence of epics, due to being able to farm seals/shards/scrolls out of it because of the sheer number of mobs and chests compared to the other quests in the series.

The XP of choice of the EyebleedingGrindersUnion® was rusted blades and impossible demands sure, but those quests haven't been nearly as awesome for nearly the amount of time von 3 has. When the cap was 25 you could hit cap without even trying? Yes, by running high xp quests, LIKE VON 3

Von 3/5 for president, stay classy.

[slarden]

so how many are moving across town to Wiz King? better get it while its good before it gets the axe too.

Wiz King is good but due to optional xp glitch it may or may not be that great depending on whether the person is impacted.

Through a mirror darkly will be fantastic with a full party that splits up for the orbs/journals and knows what to do. Even some of the EH loot will sell - so really this is a much better option than Jungle of Khyber ever was - and more coms.

They lined up xp with my com farming quests so I am very happy. It sucks for casual players because Von3 gave them a quest to farm that was easy to learn and easy to get into a group for.

[Firepants]

Lol @ Turbine. Instead of making everything else more appealing, let's make it all a grey muck.

Typical.

And I barely ever ran this thing to begin with, but the attitude of Turbine is getting on my last nerve.
Haha, yeah, it's getting ridiculous at this point. I logged in earlier, sat there, and went "Nah". I can't find it in me to run the same **** again and again waiting/hoping for them to finish up the levels and give us a bunch of content but that's not going to happen. It's been almost 8 years and they're JUST getting to cap. And there's not going to be any worthwhile content at that point if this insane hamster wheel of TR/ETR is any indicator. It is such a terrible system and nerfing XP only makes that worse.

[Flavilandile]

Wrong, von 3 has been awesome for longer than 5 years, well into the era before epics.

This.

Oh dear I agree with Chai. ;)

VON3 used to be one of the place to go at LVL 5/6 and above for phat and fast XP.... Before ******** Streak Time....
The path once you were done with VON3 by LVL 8/9 moved you to Gianthold ( before they locked it ) for some Madstone and PoP fun ( and phat XP )

[Paleus]

VoN3 is perfect to farm off destinies, you know, that boring thing we have to do cause we can't always play in our main destiny if we want fate points for twists. It's not von3 that is out of the norm, it's the whole system that should be rebalanced to allow people to play in the destiny they want. Running EH/EN quests is so boring but unless you are allowed to pike in EE it's your only choice to get off destinies xp.

But as usual, instead of fixing the problem, they just break the fix players found by themselves to make ED farming bearable.

You do know that I agree with you right? Next time read the whole post you're quoting a piece of. I mean, seriously the next word in that post is "However."

So let me restate, VoN 3 was out of the norm of the rest of quests, and quest XP needs to be rebalanced so that we can choose to play a variety of quests for the same net benefit rather than repeating only one quest ad nauseum as the best solution. So that part of Turbine's focus I agree with. But, as I said, the cuts in these rebalances are too deep, and the raises are too low. Maybe Turbine doesn't realize that it takes time to get between different quests so xp increases should be much higher relative to cuts, or that taking 20k+ xp out of one quest and giving 2k xp to 10 quests actually means that the same 20k takes an exponentially longer time to gain, etc. But, as I said previously, I doubt it. These rebalances are somewhat weighted towards more increases and fewer cuts, but not enough that it doesn't feel like the intended result is that players spend more game time to achieve similar results, rather than getting to enjoy greater variety during the similar game time to achieve the same results.

And yes, the ETR, epic destiny, fate twists, vcomms, etc systems of gaining XP are clearly designed to make you keep playing the same content over and over again for longer periods. Lets put that in a memo titled "s*** I already know (and everyone else)." But, lets be honest, if you're willing to go along with gaining XP for those results then it would be much more fun if the XP in quests actually encouraged a variety in optimal quest selections.

[bartharok]

it's boring. And the point of a game is fun. How can anyone think otherwise?

repeat with me: DDO is a game. Not a work.

Then why play like it is?

[Kalevor]

Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
it's boring. And the point of a game is fun. How can anyone think otherwise?

repeat with me: DDO is a game. Not a work.


Then why play like it is?

agreed. If don't have fun playing "off destiny" why you do it?

[Pandir]

VON3 is an absolute XP pinata, it makes sense to nerf it. The quest in itself is extremely bland and boring imo.

[Ivan_Milic]

I thought that exactly. Until a lvl 20 asked me to accept him. I told him he cant enter at lvl 20. But he did. So it's possible, because I saw it. I usually start at lvl 22 after an eTR, because the saga xp, so didn't try to enter EE GH at lvl 20, so I don't know, how they do it.:)


this is true i just entered madstone epic elite at level 20 to test it out.

your friend sil :)



Its a bug.
I tried for 3 etrs to enter ee gh, I couldnt, many other people cant either, so if someone can enter, its not wai.

[Vellrad]

Nope. Coms per minute can be plowed far more quickly in the mid range, due to faster completion times. I can run three 35 com quests in the same amount of time it takes to run one 60 com quest.

Not to mention getting groups for 60 com quests is a longer wait than getting groups for the 35 com quests.



It takes me 30-35 minutes to run WGU, including port and run to quest.
It takes me 1 minute to get group for WGU: open guild panel and ninja invite everyone level 25+.
Tracker trap, lines of supply and breaking the ice are zergable in 10-15 minutes each.



You also must realize that at level 20 you are locked out of a lot of the higher level stuff.
This is why nerf of von3 hurts.
Because I want to get to level allowing me to entry everywhere ASAP.

[Iriale]

agreed. If don't have fun playing "off destiny" why you do it?
i play very little in an off destiny. A daily run von 3 (because it's fast) and move on to difficult quest in a good destiny.

my question is, why do you want to direct the way in that other other people play?

If you don't want play von 3, don't play. Up your LFMs for other quests. Hey, pug should be easy for you: people speak in your language in the pugs.

[Kalevor]

i play very little in an off destiny. A daily run von 3 (because it's fast) and move on to difficult quest in a good destiny.

my question is, why do you want to direct the way in that other other people play?

Don't put words in my mouth. I've only said that i like the changes made to rebalance the xp of some quest.

There is no sense in grant this amount of xp for running this easy quest.

[Yalinaa]

Garbage. The ETR hamstel wheel is pure garbage. A boring and endless grind bad designed (for the average player, very well designed to squeeze money from the powegamer eager to buy boxes and hearts)

Me, i don't want a 4th twist at the cost of months and months of boring grind in off destinies, or buying a lot of expensives boxes. Move on, guys. ETR es pure garbage!!

Yes, it's a grind... but... but... shinies!!:)

If there is a 4th twist available, yes, I would like to get it. I never bought Otto's boxes or traded for them, but they are not bad for those who can only play 1-2 hours on a day, but still want to level fast. I will take my time, and do the grind, as many others will do it. I'm lucky, I don't need to pay anything, around 40 TR on my characters, so I got enough TP to buy some hearts if needed...:)

[Iriale]

Don't put words in my mouth. I've only said that i like the changes made to rebalance the xp of some quest.

There is no sense in grant this amount of xp for running this easy quest.
and you don't put words in my mouth too.

There is no sense in grant a borked and boring system instead a fun system. If they want a hamster wheel, it should be fun!!!! This is more important than a quest with different xp.

Fix the boring system first, after fix the von3 experience.

[pHo3nix]

Quote Originally Posted by Iriale View Post
it's boring. And the point of a game is fun. How can anyone think otherwise?

repeat with me: DDO is a game. Not a work.



agreed. If don't have fun playing "off destiny" why you do it?

Cause people want to contribute when they run "difficult" content.

If you find fun running EN/EH quests or piking in EE go ahead, as long as you find people that let you pike.

There are other reasons to run off destinies even if you don't want to use twists: let's say you are a cleric and you choose Exalted angel, then you later TR to sorcerer and want to get to Draconic: you have to go through at least 4 lvls of US(which sucks on everything), at least 3 lvls of GmoF, at least 4 lvls of ShadowDancer, at least 3 lvls of Fatesinger. So you have to run a suboptimal toon for some million of xp: if you don't care about others (as you and your friend above seem to imply) then sure, you can run your sorc in US, GmoF, ShadowDancer and Fatesinger on EE contributing basically nothing and just piking. Or you can do like most people that consider others a little do: farm your useless destinies XP in EN/EH fast quests so that you can run in your good destiny and contribute.

Farming off destinies is never fun, it's something people want to get out of their way as fast as they can. So they are not fixing anything, they are just breaking our fast way to get a boring thing done.

[Iriale]

Cause people want to contribute when they run "difficult" content.

If you find fun running EN/EH quests or piking in EE go ahead, as long as you find people that let you pike.

There are other reasons to run off destinies even if you don't want to use twists: let's say you are a cleric and you choose Exalted angel, then you later TR to sorcerer and want to get to Draconic: you have to go through at least 4 lvls of US(which sucks on everything), at least 3 lvls of GmoF, at least 4 lvls of ShadowDancer, at least 3 lvls of Fatesinger. So you have to run a suboptimal toon for some million of xp: if you don't care about others (as you and your friend above seem to imply) then sure, you can run your sorc in US, GmoF, ShadowDancer and Fatesinger on EE contributing basically nothing and just piking. Or you can do like most people that consider others a little do: farm your useless destinies XP in EN/EH fast quests so that you can run in your good destiny and contribute.

Farming off destinies is never fun, it's something people want to get out of their way as fast as they can. So they are not fixing anything, they are just breaking our fast way to get a boring thing done.
this!

I can hardly speak English and can not say everything I think in my posts. But this is what I think

[Atremus]

The boost to VoN3 in the last update was too much. We all saw this coming. There are other quests and the real issue is CoV not XP.

[Kalevor]

Cause people want to contribute when they run "difficult" content.

If you find fun running EN/EH quests or piking in EE go ahead, as long as you find people that let you pike.


I can solo EE pretty well, thank you sir.

If you want to grind one single easy quest to the exhaustion only because you are too afraid or don't have the skills to do something else, do it.

But don' t say that is the only way or faster way, is not true. Dev's want that ppl run other things, not only von3.

[Ivan_Milic]

Off destiny is the worst thing in this game.
When I see someone in arcane destiny and he is melee that joins my ee quest, I feel like punching him.
So you have 2 options here, tr to class that will work the best with that destiny sphere or just do quests on eh.

[Iriale]

Yes, it's a grind... but... but... shinies!!:)

If there is a 4th twist available, yes, I would like to get it. I never bought Otto's boxes or traded for them, but they are not bad for those who can only play 1-2 hours on a day, but still want to level fast. I will take my time, and do the grind, as many others will do it. I'm lucky, I don't need to pay anything, around 40 TR on my characters, so I got enough TP to buy some hearts if needed...:)
good for you then. But no all people want these shinies to this prize. I do not rush the ETRs. I do not mind waiting for the CoV. But I don't want to play a long time each day in an off destiny running boring quests. I want that they fix the stupid ED system, but if they don't at least let me an escape valve (make quickly each day a little progress in an off destiny).

What turbine has to understand is that there are some people who pay to get rid of that grind. Many other, no. I will not. I pay gladly my VIP subscription, but I will not pay for ETR. Please, give me a fun end game (new quests, new raids, loot to get) If everything becomes a boring grind forcing me to play as *they* want (and not as I want), I will leave. And like me, other people. Some of my friends have left the game for these reasons.

For the health of the game. For the future of the game, fix this stupid ED system. Von3 is not the problem, just the symptom of something wrong.

[Kalevor]

Off destiny is the worst thing in this game.
When I see someone in arcane destiny and he is melee that joins my ee quest, I feel like punching him.
So you have 2 options here, tr to class that will work the best with that destiny sphere or just do quests on eh.

I agree with that, sometimes is not funny run out destiny. But that war was lost time ago.

[Iriale]

I can solo EE pretty well, thank you sir.

If you want to grind one single easy quest to the exhaustion only because you are too afraid or don't have the skills to do something else, do it.

But don' t say that is the only way or faster way, is not true. Dev's want that ppl run other things, not only von3.
Quest ransack ensures that people play other quests and not just von3. Is it so hard to understand? Play a quest once a day not exclude you also play other quests that day. How can you have a toon that solo EE if you play only a quest at day?

Common sense, please.

[Iriale]

I agree with that, sometimes is not funny run out destiny. But that war was lost time ago.
Not. The buyer has the last word. The war will be lost only if we nod and stay quiet. If there are sufficient protests they eventually will fix the system. They've changed other things that we disliked.

It is a game. It has to be fun. We should tell to the devs what we like and do not like. They will listen, if not today, tomorrow... but they will listen. Because our fun is their money.

[Hendrik]

Experience for 1 quest has been decreased:

The Jungle of Khyber
Previous Base XP on Epic Normal: 42,693
New Base XP on Epic Normal: 23,299


VON3 gives what I would consider appropriate xp/min for epic levels. It is the most popular quest in the game for epic leveling and has more lfms than any other quest. the one (and only) quest where I regularly see people of all skill and experience levels as players and all guilds mingling socially. Why do we need to make the things people like the most in this game less likeable? That does not seem like a good way to keep your customers happy.

10k/min is appropriate to you?

:eek:

[Kalevor]

Quest ransack ensures that people play other quests and not just von3. Is it so hard to understand? Play a quest once a day not exclude you also play other quests that day. How can you have a toon that solo EE if you play only a quest at day?

Common sense, please.

Maybe i express myself wrong or you are trolling me but you don't get me... I never said that i only run one quest everyday.

I'm gonna stop writing in this thread, there is no point.

[Hathorian]

Turbine is doing players a favor here, you will cap now with more vcomms.

why is that doing us a favour? it is a lot easier to get vcomms at level 28 than it is at levels 21-24.

This is BS!! When Turbine wants to nerf something they do it SLEDGEHAMMER style. BS!!!

I think this is going to cost them real money though. Some people are fine paying money for hearts, but if it takes them 3 months to do each life they are going to say forget it it is too much of a grind and not bother.

[Teh_Troll]

10k/min is appropriate to you?

:eek:

For Epic XP?

Yes.

[Ivan_Milic]

I agree with that, sometimes is not funny run out destiny. But that war was lost time ago.

This is why heroic tr will always be superior to epic tr.

[Ivan_Milic]

why is that doing us a favour? it is a lot easier to get vcomms at level 28 than it is at levels 21-24.

This is BS!! When Turbine wants to nerf something they do it SLEDGEHAMMER style. BS!!!

I think this is going to cost them real money though. Some people are fine paying money for hearts, but if it takes them 3 months to do each life they are going to say forget it it is too much of a grind and not bother.

Ofc its gonna take you 3 months if you only do von3.

[Iriale]

Maybe i express myself wrong or you are trolling me but you don't get me... I never said that i only run one quest everyday.

I'm gonna stop writing in this thread, there is no point.
i don't troll. I leave that to Teh_troll, who is more professional ;)

You said "Dev's want that ppl run other things, not only von3". Well, I tell you it is impossible to play von 3 only unless you play only a quest at day. Your argument is false. They don't nerf von3 because only von 3 is played.

[maddmatt70]

so how many are moving across town to Wiz King? better get it while its good before it gets the axe too.

Spies in the House solo is awfully good. I can do that in under 10 minutes solo without breaking a sweat and that is worth 90k or so.

[Lifespawn]

Lost your easybutton, did you. It made running off destinies way too easy. Now you got to do it slower, and you get a chance to get more comms before 28 as well. Doesnt sound all that broken to me.

Its not like leveling the off destinies is hard, its just slower, and you wont be as powerful.


It was much faster to run off destinies in von3 twice wiz king twice and id twice daily and then switch to a real destiny and run **** xp quests with good comms now you lose the biggest bonus for off destinies and have to run in them more often and can't do the hardest quests because your destiny sucks.

[Puppetian]

Right, I can get over the fact that VoN3 is getting nerfed and a bunch of less-run quests are getting buffed, but I would ask that at the same time the optional xp ransack was fixed as well. Every time I enter wizking I have no idea how much I'll get out of it, because the optionals don't reset properly!

[Chai]

Lost your easybutton, did you. It made running off destinies way too easy. Now you got to do it slower, and you get a chance to get more comms before 28 as well. Doesnt sound all that broken to me.

Its not like leveling the off destinies is hard, its just slower, and you wont be as powerful.

A melee having to level epic mage abilities in order to gain power they will use to become more powerful in melee doesnt seem broken to you?

They could have made getting com$ at a higher rate $ynergize with getting xp at a higher rate, but they purpo$ely de$igned tho$e two $ituations to be polar oppo$ite$. Now why would they do $omething like that?

[Chai]

Spies in the House solo is awfully good. I can do that in under 10 minutes solo without breaking a sweat and that is worth 90k or so.

SHhhhhhh!!! :p

[Livmo]

Ding Dong the Witch is Dead!

Soo tired of VON3. That quest is played. I will not miss the days of endless VON 3 LFMs.

Besides is more about comms at the point you reach 28 with all your EDs maxed. You can get what I call the "Dirty 30" from Impossible Demands on EE.

[Deadlock]

While the xp for a number of saga quests are distinctly meh and any XP increase in them is welcomed. Reducing the XP just for VON3 is nothing for people to get their knickers in a twist over. You'll still do your 2 a day and more than make up the shortfall from the increased XP from the others. Nothing to see here.

What we need is a higher commendation drop rate.

[Chai]

It takes me 30-35 minutes to run WGU, including port and run to quest.
It takes me 1 minute to get group for WGU: open guild panel and ninja invite everyone level 25+.
Tracker trap, lines of supply and breaking the ice are zergable in 10-15 minutes each.

Im talking about PUGs, the other much larger percentage of folks who dont have guilds they can invite from. eGh quests are done in far less time, and some like cabal and foundation people can split up and get it done much faster.

things that create a wider gap between PUGing and guild runs should be reconsidered at this point.


This is why nerf of von3 hurts.
Because I want to get to level allowing me to entry everywhere ASAP.

Hopefully a new quest / set of quests will emerge as better xp / min now that many of them were raised.

[Sokól]

Cause people want to contribute when they run "difficult" content.

If you find fun running EN/EH quests or piking in EE go ahead, as long as you find people that let you pike.

There are other reasons to run off destinies even if you don't want to use twists: let's say you are a cleric and you choose Exalted angel, then you later TR to sorcerer and want to get to Draconic: you have to go through at least 4 lvls of US(which sucks on everything), at least 3 lvls of GmoF, at least 4 lvls of ShadowDancer, at least 3 lvls of Fatesinger. So you have to run a suboptimal toon for some million of xp: if you don't care about others (as you and your friend above seem to imply) then sure, you can run your sorc in US, GmoF, ShadowDancer and Fatesinger on EE contributing basically nothing and just piking. Or you can do like most people that consider others a little do: farm your useless destinies XP in EN/EH fast quests so that you can run in your good destiny and contribute.

Farming off destinies is never fun, it's something people want to get out of their way as fast as they can. So they are not fixing anything, they are just breaking our fast way to get a boring thing done.

So true.

[Sokól]

What we need is a higher commendation drop rate.

yep lets get loud :)

[Yalinaa]

It takes me 30-35 minutes to run WGU, including port and run to quest.
It takes me 1 minute to get group for WGU: open guild panel and ninja invite everyone level 25+.
Tracker trap, lines of supply and breaking the ice are zergable in 10-15 minutes each.


I understand you, but not everyone can solo EE WGU in 30-35 min. My melee character can't do that, I know, she is a gimp.
So, should I s(t)uck in there forever, or do something which gives more comms / min and surely won't be a pain in the *** ?

Of course uber elitist players will easily do those quests, but they are only playing with other uber elitist players ('cause everyone else sucks), and will keep telling us how easy to get high amount of comms from the highest level quests.

[Vint]

While the xp for a number of saga quests are distinctly meh and any XP increase in them is welcomed. Reducing the XP just for VON3 is nothing for people to get their knickers in a twist over. You'll still do your 2 a day and more than make up the shortfall from the increased XP from the others. Nothing to see here.

What we need is a higher commendation drop rate.

I really have no desire to ETR so would you be alright if I asked Turbine to change the number of comms needed to 7,200? (j/k, but I really have no desire to ETR)

But if this were the case and I could care less if they did raise the comm rate, does that mean I should come here spouting that they should? No. It means I should play the way I see fit and not worry about how or what others play.

[pHo3nix]

I can solo EE pretty well, thank you sir.

If you want to grind one single easy quest to the exhaustion only because you are too afraid or don't have the skills to do something else, do it.

But don' t say that is the only way or faster way, is not true. Dev's want that ppl run other things, not only von3.

So you solo EE running your melee in Magister? Does it take a decent amount of time? Is it more fun than running in your main destiny? Can we have SS of you soloing EE in a timely manner while in off destiny?

Soloing EE has nothing to do with running in off destinies. Unless you solo EE in off destinies and you can do it in an efficient way. And no, running in FoTW instead of LD or the opposite on a melee isn't running in off destinies.

I do not grind Von3, but i run it twice a day when i log on toons that need off destinies. It has nothing to do with skills or being afraid, it's just an efficient way to finish grinding ED, cause running in off destinies is, let me repeat for the 1000th times in this thread, BORING.

If the most efficient way to get fate points and twists was to run in your main destiny on EE i guess most people would be happy.

[harry-pancreas]

We are talking less then 20K off the base of a quest that many people run in 10 minutes.

A large part of the XP in this Quest comes from all the optional objectives that popup as well as the ones that are always present.

While this won't be the XP-poluzza it was, I don't think people will stop running it as it will still be in the top XP/Min quest list.

I also think the 17 quests that got bonuses is a good thing - A few even nearly doubled their XP.

this :)


we got -20k on VoN3 and probably + 1 million xp added in the rest of the quests...

[Atremus]

I am looking forward to the first time bonus of What goes up now... That pink on white effect sucks but that XP might make me run it at least once a life

[Deadlock]

I really have no desire to ETR so would you be alright if I asked Turbine to change the number of comms needed to 7,200? (j/k, but I really have no desire to ETR)

But if this were the case and I could care less if they did raise the comm rate, does that mean I should come here spouting that they should? No. It means I should play the way I see fit and not worry about how or what others play.

You would be clever enough to think ahead of where you are right now and provide for the contingency that you might want to ETR at some point, or that additional uses for Commendations will be added in the future and more is always better than less.

I think that's what you were trying to say? No need to thank me for clarifying :) My previous post stands.

[Vint]

You would be clever enough to think ahead of where you are right now and provide for the contingency that you might want to ETR at some point, or that additional uses for Commendations will be added in the future and more is always better than less.

I think that's what you were trying to say? No need to thank me for clarifying :) My previous post stands.

Possibly I would want to tr in the future, but I could say that you have “your knickers in a twist’ over comms the same way I have mine a twist over xp. Not going to argue and say you are wrong that they need to lower the drop rate, but your knickers are no better than mine when it comes to getting them twisted.

[Paleus]

this :)


we got -20k on VoN3 and probably + 1 million xp added in the rest of the quests...

The net is easy to calculate, its closer to 120k added and 20k subtracted for a net increase in quest XP of 100k. Of course, there are some other factors you'll want to calculate before declaring a net win. First, optional XP, at least in theory, is automatically calculated in game as a function of quest base XP. VoN3 has many objectives so it is most likely going to mean even more XP is being subtracted (though I have not confirmed if it was set to retain the old amounts). The second thing is we know that it takes about 10 minutes to run a VoN 3 in a typical TR zerg party. So, you are loosely losing 2k XP/min. This is not counting optionals or the interaction of XP boosts. You would want to look at the list of quests and figure out the time it takes to run each quest to see where 2K XP/min is being added, assuming its easily equal to get the same XP bonuses in quest and the number of available optionals. If you can't find it, then that means you have to factor in additional time spent running to a different quest, or the amount of time it takes you to run a quest twice or more to regain the lost amount of XP.

XP is only one part of this equation, the other part is time. If rebalancing XP in quests means I can spend the same or less time in a greater variety of quests for the same net effect on my character, then I'm happy for that change. If rebalancing XP in quests mean I have to spend significantly more time to get the same net effect, then I'm a little less thrilled. Sure, I don't think people should cap characters over night (I also level hella slow). The change to VoN 3 may be a net positive, but I'm not convinced yet without in-game experience. And I worry that I see a game design philosophy that encourages making processes a slog at the same time you sell products to reduce that slog, so I'm prone to skepticism when I see a big change like this one.

[Chai]

You would be clever enough to think ahead of where you are right now and provide for the contingency that you might want to ETR at some point, or that additional uses for Commendations will be added in the future and more is always better than less.

I think that's what you were trying to say? No need to thank me for clarifying :) My previous post stands.

Hardly, because they demonstrated yet again that when a scalpel is the tool for the job, they fire up the chain saw and have at it.

Its very rare to see something go from uselsss to viable, or from OP to viable. Its far more common to see things go from useless to OP, or from OP to useless.

If they wanted to say it was somewhat high, fine, but cutting it in half wasnt really necessary.

WHat will likely happen here with this many quests having their Xp raised, is the short cuts will be hammered out in those to the point where we find out which quest is now the "zomg must run for XP" quest, and then that one will take over where von 3 left off.

The point when he would want to eTR is when the system is reasonible enough to earn stuff in game without having to pay into the system for every incrementation.

[Deadlock]

Possibly I would want to tr in the future, but I could say that you have “your knickers in a twist’ over comms the same way I have mine a twist over xp. Not going to argue and say you are wrong that they need to lower the drop rate, but your knickers are no better than mine when it comes to getting them twisted.

I'm a Scotsman. We wear kilts.

You know we don't wear knickers under our kilts, right?

[Vint]

I'm a Scotsman. We wear kilts.

You know we don't wear knickers under our kilts, right?

tis true. I am only a quarter Scotish.

[Teh_Troll]

Sheep can hear a zipper. Just saying . . .

What's this thread about? Pay2win or nerfing monks, hard to keep track.

[Thrudh]

Lol @ Turbine. Instead of making everything else more appealing, let's make it all a grey muck.

They did make everything else more appealing.. VON 3 STILL gives a ton of exp (still in the top 5 for xp/min) and they bumped up 20 or so other quests...

So net buff. I don't understand the people on these boards.

[Deadlock]

Stuff disagreeing with whatever was previously written

I fail to see why you're feeling the need to chip in on this thread when you're pet topic is already covered. There is already a P2W option on commendations already in the store.

The XP for VON3 has been cut to what it's been cut to. Two EH hard were worth 18 commendations. It's worth a decent chunk of XP, but the XP/Min for that quest isn't that uber to begin with - see list of all quests in my sig if you need more info on that.

I see no need to nerf the XP for VON3 to begin with. Why buffs need to come hand-in-hand with a nerf makes no sense to me. Fix the problem with XP in the other quests that need it and leave VON3 would have made a hell of a lot more sense to me. And to any right minded person who looks at it.

We need nuggets of awesome sprinkled around the place. Shadow Crypt for heroics. Impossible Demands for epics. Gems. We need more of them not less.

I'm guessing you'll feel the need now to reply and disagree with that too? I'll go have a beer and not bother checking back :)

[Teh_Troll]

They did make everything else more appealing.. VON 3 STILL gives a ton of exp (still in the top 5 for xp/min) and they bumped up 20 or so other quests...

So net buff. I don't understand the people on these boards.

Ahh . . . nerfing VON3. Now I remember.

Meh, more interesting stuff pays more now. VON3 got nerfed, stop crying about it as it makes you sound like a monk.

[Deadlock]

VON 3 STILL gives a ton of exp (still in the top 5 for xp/min)

So wrong it defies belief. The XP is good. The XP/min isn't.

It wasn't before. It's even less now. See quest list in my sig for details.

[Thrudh]

I see no need to nerf the XP for VON3 to begin with. Why buffs need to come hand-in-hand with a nerf makes no sense to me. Fix the problem with XP in the other quests that need it and leave VON3 would have made a hell of a lot more sense to me. And to any right minded person who looks at it.

I would have been fine if they left VON 3 alone...

But I'm also fine with nerfing it. I can certainly see why a right-minded person might think it gives TOO much exp, even if I don't agree with that opinion. I can certainly see it being a reasonable opinion, even if I disagree with it.

I also can't imagine any right minded person will be so horribly affected by this change that they need to vent about it on the boards over and over.

Try focusing on the 20 positive changes, instead of the one negative change, and you'll be much happier in life.

[NaturalHazard]

Ahh . . . nerfing VON3. Now I remember.

Meh, more interesting stuff pays more now. VON3 got nerfed, stop crying about it as it makes you sound like a monk.

Your wrong hes not crying about it, hes crying about the people crying about it.

Meh they could of buffed those quests without nerfing von3 but oh well, I hope they buff some more quests, the only thing is, von3 was so quick and its so close to the airship portal no long runs, and people who might not have long to play can get a quest done in short time for really good xp for off destiny leveling.

Its still worth running, and a good quest for those who might log in and only have an hour that night to play, not everyone has hours and hours every day to spare to run a long chain.

Maybe they should look at off destiny leveling and also the travel between certain points.

[NaturalHazard]

I would have been fine if they left VON 3 alone...

But I'm also fine with nerfing it. I can certainly see why a right-minded person might think it gives TOO much exp, even if I don't agree with that opinion. I can certainly see it being a reasonable opinion, even if I disagree with it.

I also can't imagine any right minded person will be so horribly affected by this change that they need to vent about it on the boards over and over.

Try focusing on the 20 positive changes, instead of the one negative change, and you'll be much happier in life.

Why do you disagree with that view?

Personally I think they had bigger fish to fry, upping the xp in the other quests could of been done without touching von3, I dont think von3 really negatively impacted the game, some of those quests that got buffed still don't look that much more appealing to me.

The good thing is they might be finally taking notice at the imbalances of the xp rewards for quests, its all over the place, and they might look at other things that made von3 attractive and the other stuff that made those other quests unattractive to the player base, 90% of it is xp, and time, also convenience.

[Postumus]

Lost your easybutton, did you. It made running off destinies way too easy. Now you got to do it slower, and you get a chance to get more comms before 28 as well. Doesnt sound all that broken to me.

Its not like leveling the off destinies is hard, its just slower, and you wont be as powerful.


You seem to be under the misapprehension that this is a game, a diversion for fun, rather than serious business.

[Dandonk]

I think 20-25% nerf of von3 would be better, and upping a lot of others instead, but I'll survive.

[slarden]

I think 20-25% nerf of von3 would be better, and upping a lot of others instead, but I'll survive.

What's puzzling is that through a mirror darkly will now give more xp/min than Von 3 ever gave, but of course not solo. It requires at least a party of 4 to do it the super fast way - divide and conquer.

[NaturalHazard]

You seem to be under the misapprehension that this is a game, a diversion for fun, rather than serious business.

Blasphemy!!! DDO is serious business!!!!!

[walkin_dude]

There are other reasons to run off destinies even if you don't want to use twists: let's say you are a cleric and you choose Exalted angel, then you later TR to sorcerer and want to get to Draconic: you have to go through at least 4 lvls of US(which sucks on everything), at least 3 lvls of GmoF, at least 4 lvls of ShadowDancer, at least 3 lvls of Fatesinger. So you have to run a suboptimal toon for some million of xp: if you don't care about others (as you and your friend above seem to imply) then sure, you can run your sorc in US, GmoF, ShadowDancer and Fatesinger on EE contributing basically nothing and just piking. Or you can do like most people that consider others a little do: farm your useless destinies XP in EN/EH fast quests so that you can run in your good destiny and contribute.

Farming off destinies is never fun, it's something people want to get out of their way as fast as they can. So they are not fixing anything, they are just breaking our fast way to get a boring thing done.

Qualifying this by saying I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do or how to play.

You can plan lives to minimize the issue you're talking about. For example, if I want to TR and try a sorc, I already have a wizard and a bard. I can TR one of them and have immediate access to a suitable ED (unless I want shiradi, then I need to TR my arti or ranger). I realize some folks insist that they have to have everything done right this minute. Those people will end up running in off-ED, but it is a choice. There is no requirement to do it.

[Kir1]

No, false. People do other quests.


Put LFM for von1, wait 20 mins, noone join.

Put LFM for von2, wait 30 mins, noone join.

Put LFM for von3, 3 mins, full group.

[count_spicoli]

I think 20-25% nerf of von3 would be better, and upping a lot of others instead, but I'll survive.


What Goes Up got a major bump and I find this to be more interesting than von nerf. Not only will you be pulling over 100k per run you will be pulling much better loot and more comms. Same with thru a mirror darkly. I'm excited about it.

[Thrudh]

What's puzzling is that through a mirror darkly will now give more xp/min than Von 3 ever gave, but of course not solo. It requires at least a party of 4 to do it the super fast way - divide and conquer.

Why is that puzzling? I think that's exactly what they were shooting for...

And once they fix the shadowfell effect, Mirror Darkly is a fun quest.

[Postumus]

What Goes Up got a major bump and I find this to be more interesting than von nerf. Not only will you be pulling over 100k per run you will be pulling much better loot and more comms. Same with thru a mirror darkly. I'm excited about it.


I feel the same way. A number of quests that needed xp bumps got bumps. Finally.

[bartharok]

A melee having to level epic mage abilities in order to gain power they will use to become more powerful in melee doesnt seem broken to you?

They could have made getting com$ at a higher rate $ynergize with getting xp at a higher rate, but they purpo$ely de$igned tho$e two $ituations to be polar oppo$ite$. Now why would they do $omething like that?

The world may be all about money for you, but it may be that they just didnt believe that the power should come without a price. In other words, work or pay your way to power. They did give that option.

[bartharok]

You seem to be under the misapprehension that this is a game, a diversion for fun, rather than serious business.

I stand corrected. Or sit, actually.

[Ivan_Milic]

Put LFM for von1, wait 20 mins, noone join.

Put LFM for von2, wait 30 mins, noone join.

Put LFM for von3, 3 mins, full group.

Right, once I did the whole quest with one other guy, lfm was up whole time, eh von3 20-28.

[hit_fido]

Are you telling me that it wasn't awesome for TRing, or even leveling first life toons quickly?

This XP change doesn't lower heroic rewards, so there is no 5 year old "awesome" being nerfed in that respect.


If you are counting epics only, VON 3 has been awesome the entire existence of epics, due to being able to farm seals/shards/scrolls out of it because of the sheer number of mobs and chests compared to the other quests in the series.

VON3 doesn't even drop shards, but they haven't communicated a change in seal or scroll drops, so there is no 5 year old "awesome" being nerfed in that respect, either.


The XP of choice of the EyebleedingGrindersUnion® was rusted blades and impossible demands sure, but those quests haven't been nearly as awesome for nearly the amount of time von 3 has. When the cap was 25 you could hit cap without even trying? Yes, by running high xp quests, LIKE VON 3

Normal run of epic VON3 XP around the middle of 2012 gave ~45k plus optionals:


So I ran into epic von3 on epic normal and got a nice shot of 45k exp (not including optionals) great! so we go to step back in to do it again and...

It, as well as many other epic quests, was bumped up in U20 (emphasis mine):


... the shortest epic quests in the game got a moderate xp nerf, while medium length and long quests got massive xp buffs.

So far I've done a one-and-done EH circuit in the eberron epics: Carnival, Sentinels, Fens, LoD, VON. From what I can gather they are all worth more xp than before thanks to the formula adjustment, some as much as worth twice what they were before. (My VON3 bravery run was worth 160k, where before it would have been around 90-100k.)

If they indeed cut base Epic XP in half then VON3 is returning to roughly the same XP level it has been prior to U20. Which means: there is no 5 year old "awesome" being nerfed in respect to Epic XP, either; that Matuse was correct in his criticism; and you were off topic or just plain wrong on every point of your defense of this being a nerf to five year old aspects of VON3.

[Matuse]

Wrong, von 3 has been awesome for longer than 5 years, well into the era before epics. Are you telling me that it wasn't awesome for TRing, or even leveling first life toons quickly?

Heroic XP hasn't been touched. Stop lying. Again.

Oh, and this last TR, I skipped all of the VoNs entirely during my heroic life. I felt like getting the first time bonus on the epic completion. Even ignoring them completely, I still trivially streaked through the levels they can be braveried at, without repeating any other quests.


If you are counting epics only, VON 3 has been awesome the entire existence of epics, due to being able to farm seals/shards/scrolls out of it because of the sheer number of mobs and chests compared to the other quests in the series.

Laughably wrong.

1) Drow were not fast to kill because of their SR, which pre-destiny was basically impossible to surmount on Epic.

2) I could solo run VoN1, 2, and 4 faster than a group could do VoN3.

3) THERE ARE NO SHARDS IN ANY VON EXCEPT 6. How do you expect anyone to take you even vaguely seriously when you make egregiously huge factual errors like this?

4) If you want Seals, you're -far- better off ransacking the maze in VoN2 and the acid pit chest in VoN4 than doing anything in VoN3.

5) Mass killing for scrolls? VoN1. Hands down. Particularly when the arena perch spot was in place and a wiz/sorc could firewall the entire quest to completion with no risk whatsoever. Even moreso when the quests first went epic and you could kill the bugbears at the start for scrolls...they stayed level 10 and could be massacred with impunity. Recall, reset, rinse, repeat.

The only time I ever saw anyone doing VoN3 pre-MotU was to say that they did, or to be able to see "EPIC" in purple on their quest completions.

[NaturalHazard]

Why is that puzzling? I think that's exactly what they were shooting for...

And once they fix the shadowfell effect, Mirror Darkly is a fun quest.

It should give more xp, and yes I don't mind it at all, when I have the time, and if that shadowfail effect was taken away it would be even better.

[NaturalHazard]

Heroic XP hasn't been touched. Stop lying. Again.

Oh, and this last TR, I skipped all of the VoNs entirely during my heroic life. I felt like getting the first time bonus on the epic completion. Even ignoring them completely, I still trivially streaked through the levels they can be braveried at, without repeating any other quests.



Laughably wrong.

1) Drow were not fast to kill because of their SR, which pre-destiny was basically impossible to surmount on Epic.

2) I could solo run VoN1, 2, and 4 faster than a group could do VoN3.

3) THERE ARE NO SHARDS IN ANY VON EXCEPT 6. How do you expect anyone to take you even vaguely seriously when you make egregiously huge factual errors like this?

4) If you want Seals, you're -far- better off ransacking the maze in VoN2 and the acid pit chest in VoN4 than doing anything in VoN3.

5) Mass killing for scrolls? VoN1. Hands down. Particularly when the arena perch spot was in place and a wiz/sorc could firewall the entire quest to completion with no risk whatsoever. Even moreso when the quests first went epic and you could kill the bugbears at the start for scrolls...they stayed level 10 and could be massacred with impunity. Recall, reset, rinse, repeat.

The only time I ever saw anyone doing VoN3 pre-MotU was to say that they did, or to be able to see "EPIC" in purple on their quest completions.

True back then saw more von1 and 2 epics up. still ran von3 but not as much, dont know why hes talking shards, those come from von6.

von-1 and 4 was my choice for solo farming scrolls.

[Postumus]

Heroic XP hasn't been touched. Stop lying. Again.

Oh, and this last TR, I skipped all of the VoNs entirely during my heroic life. I felt like getting the first time bonus on the epic completion. Even ignoring them completely, I still trivially streaked through the levels they can be braveried at, without repeating any other quests.



Laughably wrong.

1) Drow were not fast to kill because of their SR, which pre-destiny was basically impossible to surmount on Epic.

2) I could solo run VoN1, 2, and 4 faster than a group could do VoN3.

3) THERE ARE NO SHARDS IN ANY VON EXCEPT 6. How do you expect anyone to take you even vaguely seriously when you make egregiously huge factual errors like this?

4) If you want Seals, you're -far- better off ransacking the maze in VoN2 and the acid pit chest in VoN4 than doing anything in VoN3.

5) Mass killing for scrolls? VoN1. Hands down. Particularly when the arena perch spot was in place and a wiz/sorc could firewall the entire quest to completion with no risk whatsoever. Even moreso when the quests first went epic and you could kill the bugbears at the start for scrolls...they stayed level 10 and could be massacred with impunity. Recall, reset, rinse, repeat.

The only time I ever saw anyone doing VoN3 pre-MotU was to say that they did, or to be able to see "EPIC" in purple on their quest completions.



5 for 5 Matuse. Well done.

[Chai]

Laughably wrong.

This is incorrect. 1/5 There are many things about that era you are either forgetting, or purposely leaving out.


1) Drow were not fast to kill because of their SR, which pre-destiny was basically impossible to surmount on Epic.

Nope, they were easy to kill due to having low fort saves in the stun+autocrit era. Monks had handwraps that procced a no-save stun as well. Autocrit with picks was the best way to kill them. Did you not remember stunning 10% or was it left out on purpose. Monks, and pick and hammer (stun only on blunt in that era) builds disregard SR. It was all about rate of attack to get that 10% no save stun to proc.


2) I could solo run VoN1, 2, and 4 faster than a group could do VoN3.

I wish we were back in that era, because id challenge that. Youd be done with one due to crit fishing and firewalling, and be maybe a third of the way into 2 when we completed. Yeah Von 1 was cheeze-able big time. It wasnt about difficulty of killing mobs, it was about perching and crit fishing in every stage of the quest.

Faster wasnt the issue back then as we didnt get XP. Loot chance was the issue, which was based on mumber of mobs and number of chests. Epics were also on a 1/day timer, so the same quest couldnt just be farmed over and over again after completion. There was a time when we could re-enter epics, but that was not the entire era.


3) THERE ARE NO SHARDS IN ANY VON EXCEPT 6. How do you expect anyone to take you even vaguely seriously when you make egregiously huge factual errors like this?

Yeah so i put all components into my post rather than just the ones that could be farmed out of von 3...woops. Do you put yourself to the same scrutiny for your first line there? Because drow were far easier to kill back then. I realize casters moaned and groaned because their one trick pony spells werent getting through the SR, but they could just as easily be firewalled as you explain later, and stuns were far easier to land on drow than ogres and trolls - not to mention monks had wraps that procced a no save stun. Autocrit killed mobs very quickly back then, regardless what mob type they were.


4) If you want Seals, you're -far- better off ransacking the maze in VoN2 and the acid pit chest in VoN4 than doing anything in VoN3.

You mean that is somehow faster than ransacking the first couple cheasts in eVON 3? Nope. Not in the era when they allowed re-entry anyhow.


5) Mass killing for scrolls? VoN1. Hands down. Particularly when the arena perch spot was in place and a wiz/sorc could firewall the entire quest to completion with no risk whatsoever. Even moreso when the quests first went epic and you could kill the bugbears at the start for scrolls...they stayed level 10 and could be massacred with impunity. Recall, reset, rinse, repeat.

Scrolls were easily had when farming seals. The people who farmed von 1 for scrolls usually did so if that was the last item needed or if they wanted to sell them for plat.

[Matuse]

Youd be done with one due to crit fishing and firewalling

No, I never played an arcane beyond level 3 prior to MotU.

[Wipey]

What's puzzling is that through a mirror darkly will now give more xp/min than Von 3 ever gave, but of course not solo. It requires at least a party of 4 to do it the super fast way - divide and conquer.
Wiki has awesome guide ( and I think author even posted it here somewhere ).
With DD it takes us maybe 20 mins on EE including beholder.
Oh and you are much better with LESS people.

Increase of XP for all those quests like WGU is good decision.
Thrudh mode on : But people might try running what they LIKE and something for change of scenery instead daily EH vons, wizkings or demands.

[Shmuel]

Wiki has awesome guide ( and I think author even posted it here somewhere ).
With DD it takes us maybe 20 mins on EE including beholder.
Oh and you are much better with LESS people.

Increase of XP for all those quests like WGU is good decision.
Thrudh mode on : But people might try running what they LIKE and something for change of scenery instead daily EH vons, wizkings or demands.

What I "like" is fast XP/min. This "adjustment" brings the max i can get down, no matter what quests I am running. Hence, I am unhappy. You all can whine about what you think is right or wrong. I am saying that it is stupid to nerf things people like if you want to keep customers.

[IronClan]

They could have made getting com$1 at a higher rate $2synergize with getting xp at a higher rate, but they purpo$3ely de$4igned tho$5e two $6situations to be polar oppo$7ite$8. Now why would they do $omething like that?

To make you manically put eight dollar signs in the same sentence about a week after you put 5 "p2w"'s in the same sentence?

But hey at least "p2w" has something to do with nerfing the most out of wack XP reward in the game, while buffing the XP of a bunch of other quests.... oh wait that's right it doesn't have anything to do with that.

[slarden]

Why is that puzzling? I think that's exactly what they were shooting for...

And once they fix the shadowfell effect, Mirror Darkly is a fun quest.

This is just my opinion of course...

It will be like spies in the house. People will farm through a mirror darkly, but they won't up the group up to random people who are often new/casual players. Nobody cares about accepting people in Jungle of Khyber because

1) it's easy to get to the quest
2) it's linear so the party sticks together
3) the end boss has been bugged since U14 and is incredibly easy to take down. That used to be a really tough fight on epic once upon a time.

Nerfing Von3 by 50% is taking away casual players ability to farm efficiently and get their first player to cap with limited play time and usually with a character that can't contribute as much to a party. LFMs will dry up for Von3 if xp is cut in half. It will be a once and done quest.

[IronClan]

So wrong it defies belief. The XP is good. The XP/min isn't.

It wasn't before. It's even less now. See quest list in my sig for details.

Uh... unless my phone is formatting your spreadsheet wrong the link to your spreadsheet shows It very much was best XP/min before by well over 1k per minute over most other quests. at 9.8k per minute, and the nearest competition are not remotely popular runs (fathom the depths) at 8.5k. So.....

Not that any of this nit picking matters for 95% of players it very much was great XP/min and still will be pretty darn good. Von 5 just became a little more popular. Truth is most players just do what's on the LFM panel that they are familiar with and that have big gaudy XP totals at the end filling LFM's much faster.

[Vint]

Truth is most players just do what's on the LFM panel that they are familiar with and that have big gaudy XP totals at the end filling LFM's much faster.

Everyone is fimiliar with Von 3 hence everyone runs it. I think you will see less lfm's now as it is easier to do shadow fail in smaller groups. And if what you say is true not as many people are fimiliar with SH or the prison, so that could really hinder the do grind of the casuals.

[Deadlock]

Uh... unless my phone is formatting your spreadsheet wrong the link to your spreadsheet shows It very much was best XP/min before by well over 1k per minute over most other quests. at 9.8k per minute, and the nearest competition are not remotely popular runs (fathom the depths) at 8.5k. So.....

You're absolutely right, completion time on the uploaded spreadsheet was 15 mins. Numbers I have on my local copy has 32 minutes although I can't think why it would have such a high number.

I don't believe I'm going to do this but .... Thrudh, a sincere apology for the misplaced rant. Based on the numbers I had previously put together ... you ... are ... right ... I ... am ... wrong

Wire brush and Dettol required ... need to go scrub myself clean now ....

Waaaait a minute. He was saying that it's still the best XP after the change. Phew. Close one. Still have some epidermis left.

[SunderInc]

They are cutting it by 50%. It will still be top or close to top in the game in regards to XP/min.

I will still run in into the ground, because the XP will still be THAT good.

OP makes a valid point and along comes ^ brown-nose...
Post was asking you specifically. Troll On...

[hit_fido]

You're absolutely right, completion time on the uploaded spreadsheet was 15 mins. Numbers I have on my local copy has 32 minutes although I can't think why it would have such a high number.

I don't believe I'm going to do this but .... Thrudh, a sincere apology for the misplaced rant. Based on the numbers I had previously put together ... you ... are ... right ... I ... am ... wrong

Wire brush and Dettol required ... need to go scrub myself clean now ....

Really nothing at all wrong with acknowledging a correction of some sort or a different understanding based on reasonable discourse. It's refreshing. +1

[harry-pancreas]

The net is easy to calculate, its closer to 120k added and 20k subtracted for a net increase in quest XP of 100k. Of course, there are some other factors you'll want to calculate before declaring a net win. First, optional XP, at least in theory, is automatically calculated in game as a function of quest base XP. VoN3 has many objectives so it is most likely going to mean even more XP is being subtracted (though I have not confirmed if it was set to retain the old amounts). The second thing is we know that it takes about 10 minutes to run a VoN 3 in a typical TR zerg party. So, you are loosely losing 2k XP/min. This is not counting optionals or the interaction of XP boosts. You would want to look at the list of quests and figure out the time it takes to run each quest to see where 2K XP/min is being added, assuming its easily equal to get the same XP bonuses in quest and the number of available optionals. If you can't find it, then that means you have to factor in additional time spent running to a different quest, or the amount of time it takes you to run a quest twice or more to regain the lost amount of XP.

XP is only one part of this equation, the other part is time. If rebalancing XP in quests means I can spend the same or less time in a greater variety of quests for the same net effect on my character, then I'm happy for that change. If rebalancing XP in quests mean I have to spend significantly more time to get the same net effect, then I'm a little less thrilled. Sure, I don't think people should cap characters over night (I also level hella slow). The change to VoN 3 may be a net positive, but I'm not convinced yet without in-game experience. And I worry that I see a game design philosophy that encourages making processes a slog at the same time you sell products to reduce that slog, so I'm prone to skepticism when I see a big change like this one.

ah yes i forget that often, since i'm not afraid to spend half an hour in a quest, nor afraid to those ugly wildnerness areas that scare people so much.
And yes i was exagerating with the million, just trying to keep the drama at minimum.

You guys can see the empty half of the glass and say "OMG no xp per minute" or you can see the filled half and be happy :)

IF my character needs to spend 20 minutes doing von3 and another quest instead of 10 minutes in von 3 to get any kind of achievement, i'm happy, means more DDO for more time before it gets too old.

IF my character needs to spend 10 minutes in VON3 to get an achievement, and getting the next achievement means i need to do von3 again and give me no other option (because there is no other lfm at level, because instead of running 1 more quest it means to run 5 and i lack of the time, etc, etc) i get bored. But that's my own feeling about the game, not saying you should be like me, idc what people do (just answering cause of the cite btw)

edit: did that sound rude ? not my intention, i just don't speak english. (there is such an amount of sensitive pple here i rather make that clear)