Game is gimp now due to expansion promo. Raids are dead. Loot ML too low. How fix?

[firemedium_jt]

New players are getting through the game too quickly. This was obviously done to promote the high level expansions. Raid loot was gimped and auction house gear got better.

Obviously the game is getting old and we are losing players to other games. I ask my friends why they don't play this and the fundamental problems are the reasons. They say the lag and other game issues are not worth it. Other games have better graphics and run smoother. This is a shame because they would enjoy the character creation and combat that DDO excels at if these other issues were fixed. Well they are lost to this now and will probably not come back unless something revolutionary is done to fix the game and make it run smoother.

I like some of the loot changes and dislike others. My divine power items ML got raised, but all this other powerful loot like accuracy and deadly and seeker and speed have low Min Lvl. Now I like that the loot is there. It is just gimping raid loot hurting the TR community that I am not a part of.

I like the auction house gear. I like Raid Timers, so I can convert my TP to Plat in the game. I P2W I guess, but really I pay to keep up with the multi TRs and kids on here with too much time on their hands because I have a job and real life money is less time consuming to get and use than virtual time. Mana pots from the DDO store. Sure just in case I screw up I can cast out of it cause I am casual and just don't know the quests as well. My builds are good, but my gear is not the best. But I have a +5 Supreme Tome, lol. So I read the forums and use all my resources in game and outside the game to be umber.

I understand why Turbine did what it did to make money. That keeps the came going. Unless the fundamental changes to the game are made it will continue to be are mid lvl MMO, and perhaps it is too late to be anything better. We are more likely to see servers merge.

Ah well maybe a DDO2 can change that. Just let me move over my characters to it or I will be ****ed. lol. Loyalty should be awarded.

But hey! The game is 8 years old you know.... not a bad run so far.



I would like the devs to keep us informed of the community numbers??

And what changes are coming? How do I find that out?



How do you thing the game needs to change for the better?

[Shorlong]

New players are getting through the game too quickly. This was obviously done to promote the high level expansions. Raid loot was gimped and auction house gear got better.

Obviously the game is getting old and we are losing players to other games. I ask my friends why they don't play this and the fundamental problems are the reasons. They say the lag and other game issues are not worth it. Other games have better graphics and run smoother. This is a shame because they would enjoy the character creation and combat that DDO excels at if these other issues were fixed. Well they are lost to this now and will probably not come back unless something revolutionary is done to fix the game and make it run smoother.

I hear this a lot, and I play several other MMOs along with this one. Yes, the graphics are prettier elsewhere, but bug wise, it's about the same no matter where you go. TERA is buggy, DCUO is buggy, Rift is buggy, Secret World is buggy, Neverwinter is buggy. And if you look on their forums, it's the same stuff people here are talking about: devs don't care, fix the bugs, game is dying, I'm cancelling my subscription because x, y and z, blah blah blah.


I like some of the loot changes and dislike others. My divine power items ML got raised, but all this other powerful loot like accuracy and deadly and seeker and speed have low Min Lvl. Now I like that the loot is there. It is just gimping raid loot hurting the TR community that I am not a part of.

This was part of a loot change that Feather_of_Sun talked about in another post. Basically, it was a system that wasn't finished and he didn't want it to go live yet, but he was told to push it forward and fix it later. They are currently in the process of fixing it. The first aspect of it went live with U20.1, and expect more probably with U21.


I like the auction house gear. I like Raid Timers, so I can convert my TP to Plat in the game. I P2W I guess, but really I pay to keep up with the multi TRs and kids on here with too much time on their hands because I have a job and real life money is less time consuming to get and use than virtual time. Mana pots from the DDO store. Sure just in case I screw up I can cast out of it cause I am casual and just don't know the quests as well. My builds are good, but my gear is not the best. But I have a +5 Supreme Tome, lol. So I read the forums and use all my resources in game and outside the game to be umber.

I still don't understand this mindset. Who are you keeping up with? Why? It's not a race, take your time. Don't feel you have to "keep up" with the crowd, as there is no crowd. You can play how you want and that is perfectly fine.


I understand why Turbine did what it did to make money. That keeps the came going. Unless the fundamental changes to the game are made it will continue to be are mid lvl MMO, and perhaps it is too late to be anything better. We are more likely to see servers merge.

I doubt we will see a server merge until the game is about to completely die. Right now, they have around 150-200k players, not sure how many subscribers. If they merged the servers (with the exception of wayfinder...) it would cause so much lag it wouldn't be worth it. I would be happier just leaving things as they are in that respect.


Ah well maybe a DDO2 can change that. Just let me move over my characters to it or I will be ****ed. lol. Loyalty should be awarded.

I would be ok with a DDO2, but I think I would prefer to just keep the game we have. I don't feel like starting over again lol.


I would like the devs to keep us informed of the community numbers??

Doubt it. No game does this, they just give vague ideas. The closest you will find is WoW showing their sub numbers.


And what changes are coming? How do I find that out?

At the top of the forums you will find the Dev Tracker link. This shows you the posts by the devs. You can also search for the Holiday Producer's Letter, which pretty much sums up the year we have coming and what to expect.


How do you thing the game needs to change for the better?

I think generating new content, not just at end game but in other areas as well, would be the best thing for this game. I also believe that continuing to do bug fixes will go a long way. And, the biggest change of all, outside of a greensteel-like system, please please PLEASE don't put in any more new systems. Finish up the ones we have, don't add anymore.

[toaftoaf]

no way i would tell a friend to play, the HUGE bug list/lag alone. 8 years of game =8 years of unfixed bugs. one would think 1.5 years of otto's junkies would have given them enough money to pay someone to fix them

[Alisonique]

DDO2 ? yep sign me up please, at least if I can transfer my characters, otherwise I am here till they pull the plug:)

As other posters have said, other games have bugs, some more, some less......just get on with it. by all means have a whinge, even have sit ins, its all good, just try and keep a perspective on things. And lets be fair, if the game was perfect, there would still be folk whinging/trolling/ being pita's, so little would change.

As for advertising the game, what a great idea. I never have understood why it has not been pushed in the way that WoW has.
Its a shame , this game is better.

[Deadlock]

Doubt it. No game does this, they just give vague ideas. The closest you will find is WoW showing their sub numbers.

Eve has 31,348 people playing on a single shard right now. It only has one shard.

http://imageshack.com/a/img36/4886/kgxw.png

Not aimed at Shorlong, but at the OP .... DDO2? Really? Explain to me how the multi-million dollars of investment and 3 to 4 year development cycle with a massively increased number of developers is going to happen when we don't seem to have resource allocated to fixing a String Table ID error from the Yuan-ti aberrations in Don't Drink The Water?

[Raithe]

Right now, they have around 150-200k players,...

Yeah, this statement needs addressing big time. DDO probably has millions of accounts, they have nowhere near this many active players. DDO had 90k players at its original launch, which kept about ~16 servers brimming with players. It cut those in half at one point, and then added two for the relaunch.

We're probably in the 15k to 20k semi-active players right now. Make no mistake, this game is a complete dud.

[bruener]

I still don't understand this mindset. Who are you keeping up with? Why? It's not a race, take your time. Don't feel you have to "keep up" with the crowd, as there is no crowd. You can play how you want and that is perfectly fine.



a very good point. there are people, for whatever reason, have tons of time to invest in this game. there are people who will invest alot of money in this game to better their toons. i wont do either. i play when i can, for entertainment purposes. i spend very little because i cant come to grips with spending much money on pixels. i dont worry about the people who have all the uber gear and have reached completionist. I will never give this game the money/time it takes to do that. just have fun doing it your way.


sure there is lag at times. sure there are things that need changed. at least things i would want changed. you might not want what i want changed to be changed. its impossible for them to make everyone happy. i think they do a pretty good job and am happy with the game as a whole. ive dabbled in other mmos and to be honest they dont even come close to this game. sure they may be fun for a week or two, if that long, but i always come back here.

[Xianio]

We're probably in the 15k to 20k semi-active players right now. Make no mistake, this game is a complete dud.

I'd definitely say this is closer to actual number than anything posted so far. That said, 15-20k semi-active players should be enough for popular content/solo'ing. Yes, the stuff nobody likes won't run but I've never had much trouble finding something to do.

In the end there's no magic here. The games many many years old and people are slowly but surely moving to greener pastures.

That doesn't mean your game will disappear for a while but it does mean that updates will slow down (as they have) and that unpopular content will be harder to group (which it is).


Nothing lasts forever guys. I know you still love it, but nearly 10 years is a LONG time for most games these days.

[Chai]

New players are getting through the game too quickly. This was obviously done to promote the high level expansions. Raid loot was gimped and auction house gear got better.

yeap, and the one thing those have in common is they can be bought straight cash. This is the current monetization model which was loudly supported a few years ago even when everyone was told how this would pan out. Anything that can be purchased will get the quality focus and the rest will be consolidated into the environment folks use their paid for items in.

[Chai]

I'd definitely say this is closer to actual number than anything posted so far. That said, 15-20k semi-active players should be enough for popular content/solo'ing. Yes, the stuff nobody likes won't run but I've never had much trouble finding something to do.

In the end there's no magic here. The games many many years old and people are slowly but surely moving to greener pastures.

That doesn't mean your game will disappear for a while but it does mean that updates will slow down (as they have) and that unpopular content will be harder to group (which it is).


Nothing lasts forever guys. I know you stuff love it, but nearly 10 years is a LONG time for most games these days.

The original EQ still has more folks than DDO does playing it, and predates DDO by 7 years.

[gordgray]

Eve has 31,348 people playing on a single shard right now. It only has one shard.

http://imageshack.com/a/img36/4886/kgxw.png

Not aimed at Shorlong, but at the OP .... DDO2? Really? Explain to me how the multi-million dollars of investment and 3 to 4 year development cycle with a massively increased number of developers is going to happen when we don't seem to have resource allocated to fixing a String Table ID error from the Yuan-ti aberrations in Don't Drink The Water?

All I have to say is "http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en 4-4-14" New link http://youtu.be/hfpYnehJ5TE

[Teh_Troll]

Yeah, this statement needs addressing big time. DDO probably has millions of accounts, they have nowhere near this many active players. DDO had 90k players at its original launch, which kept about ~16 servers brimming with players. It cut those in half at one point, and then added two for the relaunch.

We're probably in the 15k to 20k semi-active players right now. Make no mistake, this game is a complete dud.

Which is a shame because with a few small changes this could be the bestamest game ever.

Start with more ham.

[Chai]

I still don't understand this mindset. Who are you keeping up with? Why? It's not a race, take your time. Don't feel you have to "keep up" with the crowd, as there is no crowd. You can play how you want and that is perfectly fine.


That is the mindset of the demographic group the current model of monetization caters to. Have to have it now, must keep up with the jonses. The fact that theres currently no purpose for increased character power doesnt matter, there is still a market audience who will pay straight cash for increased character power.

If everyone thought according to your terms here, the p2w marketing, and selling character power and character advancement directly in the store would not work as a monetization model.

[Shorlong]

Yeah, this statement needs addressing big time. DDO probably has millions of accounts, they have nowhere near this many active players. DDO had 90k players at its original launch, which kept about ~16 servers brimming with players. It cut those in half at one point, and then added two for the relaunch.

We're probably in the 15k to 20k semi-active players right now. Make no mistake, this game is a complete dud.

With the login numbers for one server reaching 15-20k per day, I would say that you are wrong on this number. I got my number based off of login statistics. 8 servers, with the average getting around 10-14 thousand people loging in, and the highest server getting around 24k a day, I would say it may be closer to 100k, but it's a far cry from the 15-20k you stated. Yes, they had 90k subscribers at original launch, but that number has changed. DDO had 110k SUBSCRIBERS in 2011. While that number has gone down, admittedly, the attrition isn't so much that one would assume that the number dropped by more than half. Now, considering, and this is an assumption, so take it with a grain of salt, but based on what I have seen and heard, I would say that around 45-50% of our players are VIP. So, even at that number it would suggest that if they lost HALF of the subsribers (which I don't think it actually did, but still, we'll use it for maths) we would have around 110k people playing.

[Missing_Minds]

All I have to say is "http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en 4-4-14"
Ah subscription based MMOs where the gameplay isn't at all that special compared to everyone else?

Where have I heard this before... Oh yes, Lotro. Where the only thing to keep you around is the lore.

[Shorlong]

All I have to say is "http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en 4-4-14"

Been in beta since last year, nothing to write home about. Not much different from every other mess of a MMO out there...lots of strangely populated wildlands, "instanced" quests that are instanced for every single person on the planet, combat system that is....well, it's ok. Character building that somehow finds a way to pigeonhole you into trinity gameplay, but man, it sure is pretty!

[Chai]

With the login numbers for one server reaching 15-20k per day, I would say that you are wrong on this number. I got my number based off of login statistics. 8 servers, with the average getting around 10-14 thousand people loging in, and the highest server getting around 24k a day, I would say it may be closer to 100k, but it's a far cry from the 15-20k you stated. Yes, they had 90k subscribers at original launch, but that number has changed. DDO had 110k SUBSCRIBERS in 2011. While that number has gone down, admittedly, the attrition isn't so much that one would assume that the number dropped by more than half. Now, considering, and this is an assumption, so take it with a grain of salt, but based on what I have seen and heard, I would say that around 45-50% of our players are VIP. So, even at that number it would suggest that if they lost HALF of the subsribers (which I don't think it actually did, but still, we'll use it for maths) we would have around 110k people playing.

Accounts maybe, but players?

Not only has the attrition caused a larger number of subs to drop, the f2p folks hang around for less and less time between each new update and the next one. THis game may have 100k accounts active right after a decent content update, but between those updates there are far less than that. This is the timeframe where the attrition occurs.

[Grosbeak07]

Accounts maybe, but players?

Not only has the attrition caused a larger number of subs to drop, the f2p folks hang around for less and less time between each new update and the next one. THis game may have 100k accounts active right after a decent content update, but between those updates there are far less than that. This is the timeframe where the attrition occurs.

There are maybe 50k players, with everyone having 3 accounts and running in their own groups :)

[Grosbeak07]

All I have to say is "http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en 4-4-14"

Yeah... nothing special there. I bet it flops faster than Star Wars.

[Postumus]

A THis game may have 100k accounts active right after a decent content update, but between those updates there are far less than that. This is the timeframe where the attrition occurs.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzXPWZ0HKts

[oweieie]

With the login numbers for one server reaching 15-20k per day, I would say that you are wrong on this number.

Yeah, because no one logs in 10+ times a day thanks to having to reset the client or crash bugs. :rolleyes: At peak Khyber isn't even hitting 1k players anymore. Less than 200 are in epic levels. There are frequently no LFMs up for higher level ranges. Even "come get your free EE chests" LFMs aren't filling.

[bsquishwizzy]

New players are getting through he game too quickly because of the expansion of epic content.

people spend more of their time in epic than they do leveling it seems. So criticizing that heroic is "too easy" is probably because Turbine wants them to get into epic levels sooner than we used to before.

[Postumus]

Yeah, because no one logs in 10+ times a day thanks to having to reset the client or crash bugs. :rolleyes:


If you have to log in 10+ times a day, you need a serious PC/Internet upgrade.

[EllisDee37]

Figure there's around 3000-4000 people online at any given peak time, ~1500 during off hours.

[Teh_Troll]

Figure there's around 3000-4000 people online at any given peak time, ~1500 during off hours.

That sounds about right unless 80% of the players are anonymous.

But it's not the same 3000 people.

[EllisDee37]

But it's not the same 3000 people.Agreed.

[Chai]

If you have to log in 10+ times a day, you need a serious PC/Internet upgrade.

Or you play on different servers like I do. 7 years, still havent put in a way to switch servers without having to re-up the client.

[NaturalHazard]

Yeah, this statement needs addressing big time. DDO probably has millions of accounts, they have nowhere near this many active players. DDO had 90k players at its original launch, which kept about ~16 servers brimming with players. It cut those in half at one point, and then added two for the relaunch.

We're probably in the 15k to 20k semi-active players right now. Make no mistake, this game is a complete dud.

:( its a shame if thats the case this game is better than that, just needs a fair bit of work in the right direction, now it just seems milk as much as possible from those 15k before they soon leave than, lets try and retain and build up. Maybe its because the game is so old? I dunno its still pretty good with a lot of different things compared to some of the latest.

[NaturalHazard]

Or you play on different servers like I do. 7 years, still havent put in a way to switch servers without having to re-up the client.

Or if you play a lot of alts and also use you mules from time to time, lag gets horrible unless you yes re-up the client, funny how the performance in this game goes down but when I play other games that have much higher min system requirements those seem to have less issues?

[NaturalHazard]

Figure there's around 3000-4000 people online at any given peak time, ~1500 during off hours.

all spread out over how many servers?

[Postumus]

Or if you play a lot of alts and also use you mules from time to time, lag gets horrible unless you yes re-up the client, funny how the performance in this game goes down but when I play other games that have much higher min system requirements those seem to have less issues?


I don't have the 'memory leak' problem anymore. Not for about a year. I just don't buy that everyone is logging in ten times a day on 6 different servers.


Most players stick to one or two 'home servers.' Most players don't even have characters on every server, and they certainly don't log into each server once a day. A small percentage might. Just like a small percentage has multiple accounts.

[firemedium_jt]

I don't have the 'memory leak' problem anymore. Not for about a year. I just don't buy that everyone is logging in ten times a day on 6 different servers.


Most players stick to one or two 'home servers.' Most players don't even have characters on every server, and they certainly don't log into each server once a day. A small percentage might. Just like a small percentage has multiple accounts.

My memory leak problems are mostly solved with an SSD.
Windows 7 was doing well once I got my ram at 4gb or greater. 3gb was pushing it on ultra.
Xp with 2gb ram and SSD is a huge improvement on a High to Very High settings.

[Hendrik]

Yeah... nothing special there. I bet it flops faster than Star Wars.

Yep, it is just ANOTHER carbon copy of every other MMO out there but ours.

Character creation is very good and can spend a very long time there making your character unique - after that he/she is just another bland copy of everyone else.

One of the biggest downsides to that game, group size. It is only four! Got a guild of friends, great! To bad only four of you can play together.

Crafting is OK. But that is not worth the retail box cost and then sub fee's on top of that to craft.

80+% of the game is PvP. If you do not like to PvP then you will be bored after three days.

Not worth the $15/month they are asking to play it, not worth even half that.

[Jasparion]

Which is a shame because with a few small changes this could be the bestamest game ever.

Start with more ham.

Shiradi proc spawned about 50 hams for me once.

[DakDeFrosted]

With the login numbers for one server reaching 15-20k per day, I would say that you are wrong on this number. I got my number based off of login statistics. 8 servers, with the average getting around 10-14 thousand people loging in, and the highest server getting around 24k a day, I would say it may be closer to 100k, but it's a far cry from the 15-20k you stated. Yes, they had 90k subscribers at original launch, but that number has changed. DDO had 110k SUBSCRIBERS in 2011. While that number has gone down, admittedly, the attrition isn't so much that one would assume that the number dropped by more than half. Now, considering, and this is an assumption, so take it with a grain of salt, but based on what I have seen and heard, I would say that around 45-50% of our players are VIP. So, even at that number it would suggest that if they lost HALF of the subsribers (which I don't think it actually did, but still, we'll use it for maths) we would have around 110k people playing.

Logins? I personally log in 4-5 times a day, sometimes because the game fails to load the first time and I have to relogin. You can't make any correlation between login numbers and active account numbers. If you use my math, and assume everyone logs in 5 times a day, then you're 100K logins actually equals about 20K players.

[goodspeed]

no way i would tell a friend to play, the HUGE bug list/lag alone. 8 years of game =8 years of unfixed bugs. one would think 1.5 years of otto's junkies would have given them enough money to pay someone to fix them

See im inclined to feel that the lag is mostly on the player side. I mean I used to lag. And I mean lag. I dreaded zoning into a **** explorer area. My rig wasn't the greatest but it was ok. Then I rebuilt after 8 years or so, slapped 8 gigs of 1600 ram in there, got a SSD (I'm, telling you their is no greater upgrade for mmo gaming) a decent graphics card and processor and I have yet to ever crash in this game. I don't even lag. The only way I would jutter slightly forward is if the server itself shook the heavens.

Yes the game leaks memory like a ruptured oil tanker. Which is why I recommended 8 gigs. But with upgrading all my bits and peices and not lagging I can't willfully say its server end. Now to question why you would need so much ram and a sdd, maybe an up to top cpu and gpu (dedicated!! not those stupid integrated bs things they try to hype) is another question altogether on this old of a game.

But as throwing hardware at er I say alot of times client end. Wheather its the hardware or you provider just is a lil sonofa (edited for the feint of heart)

[rasend]

As above, ever since upgrading my pc. 2 years ago I have also to nose issue with the game - unless downloading something or the wireless router has been kicked out of place :)

As to those complaining the game is gimp, please let me know what will be better to play. I had hoped NW would cure my ddo addiction but it failed. Wow is just the same.

I am also always curious/ amused why those who think the game is so dud bother reading and posting on the forum.

[emptysands]

Yeah, this statement needs addressing big time. DDO probably has millions of accounts, they have nowhere near this many active players. DDO had 90k players at its original launch, which kept about ~16 servers brimming with players. It cut those in half at one point, and then added two for the relaunch.

We're probably in the 15k to 20k semi-active players right now. Make no mistake, this game is a complete dud.

There have been 3 or 4 cycles of Moore's Law since the start of DDO. A 2014 server is going to be at least 8 times more powerful than a 2008 server. We also do not know what sort of multiplexing technology they may have developed.

All that said, I'd say that much of there lag is on the storage bound code path.

[emptysands]

Yep, it is just ANOTHER carbon copy of every other MMO out there but ours.

Character creation is very good and can spend a very long time there making your character unique - after that he/she is just another bland copy of everyone else.

One of the biggest downsides to that game, group size. It is only four! Got a guild of friends, great! To bad only four of you can play together.

Crafting is OK. But that is not worth the retail box cost and then sub fee's on top of that to craft.

80+% of the game is PvP. If you do not like to PvP then you will be bored after three days.

Not worth the $15/month they are asking to play it, not worth even half that.

PvP in SWTOR was fun.

Operations were - when I played a year ago - also well tuned to gear levels. Either almost everyone did their job, or you failed on that boss. Boss by boss progression had some meaning. 16 man ops were quite intense.

This may have changed, I have not played the new end game.

[Postumus]

Logins? I personally log in 4-5 times a day, sometimes because the game fails to load the first time and I have to relogin. You can't make any correlation between login numbers and active account numbers. If you use my math, and assume everyone logs in 5 times a day, then you're 100K logins actually equals about 20K players.


And some active accounts log in 1-2 times a WEEK. Some active accounts don't log in more than a few times a month. Using that math you actually have more than 100k active accounts depending on when you took your 100k login snapshot.


In reality it probably averages out.


What I love is how people in this thread use the 'rule of me' to figure out the numbers. "If I log in x times/day/week/month that means everyone else does too."


Fallacious thinking.

[AtomicMew]

With the login numbers for one server reaching 15-20k per day, I would say that you are wrong on this number. I got my number based off of login statistics. 8 servers, with the average getting around 10-14 thousand people loging in, and the highest server getting around 24k a day,

These numbers are flat out false, being massively exaggerated by roughly 25%. You can't even read a graph properly, nor cite your sources. Why should people take your arguments seriously? It's like you are being paid by turbine to astroturf - nobody is buying it.

[HotMaarl]

doesn't matter how old this game is. only variable that matters is the number of other MMO's that compete with this game's PnP inspiration and does combat + build diversity as well.

..and that number would be ZERO currently. Number of MMO projects on the horizon, poised to replace DDO in these regards? that would ALSO be ZERO. I've searched far and wide. Nuthin. This is it.

[Chai]

Or if you play a lot of alts and also use you mules from time to time, lag gets horrible unless you yes re-up the client, funny how the performance in this game goes down but when I play other games that have much higher min system requirements those seem to have less issues?

Yeah, because they are built to use those resources, rather than leak memory.

[Chai]

I don't have the 'memory leak' problem anymore. Not for about a year. I just don't buy that everyone is logging in ten times a day on 6 different servers.


Most players stick to one or two 'home servers.' Most players don't even have characters on every server, and they certainly don't log into each server once a day. A small percentage might. Just like a small percentage has multiple accounts.

Citation needed.

You don't believe people have alt-itis in a game that has very little to do in endgame?

[Chai]

doesn't matter how old this game is. only variable that matters is the number of other MMO's that compete with this game's PnP inspiration and does combat + build diversity as well.

..and that number would be ZERO currently. Number of MMO projects on the horizon, poised to replace DDO in these regards? that would ALSO be ZERO. I've searched far and wide. Nuthin. This is it.

You don't think pathfinder will compete with DDO?

EQ next has a chance as well.

Many of the folks that were here for the D&D aspect are gone. A lot of what is left now are the FPS folks.

[bartharok]

Citation needed.

You don't believe people have alt-itis in a game that has very little to do in endgame?

Its quite possible to have a lot of alts on one server (28 in my case).

[Chai]

Its quite possible to have a lot of alts on one server (28 in my case).

And less expensive to divide them among accounts. Also more fruitful as toons on one account can be kept which level other toons. People pike their main at the door while the sorc on their second account completes the quest. Can trade with a bank alt rather than having to toss items into shared, log out, log in mule, collect, log out again and log back in on main, invoking this games memory leak even further.

[bartharok]

And less expensive to divide them among accounts. Also more fruitful as toons on one account can be kept which level other toons. People pike their main at the door while the sorc on their second account completes the quest. Can trade with a bank alt rather than having to toss items into shared, log out, log in mule, collect, log out again and log back in on main, invoking this games memory leak even further.

MAy be less expensive, bit also a lot clumsier, unless you have several toons active at a time. In my case its also the more boring solution, since i like having a lot to choose from. Both level and class-wise. And since i dont use the store to buy pots, stones, hearts, or anything like that, its not that expensive. And i dont need mules, since the toons that need them, use them. All in all, having several accounts would be counterproductive in my case.

Oh, and the memoryleak has never been an issue for me for some reason.

[Aerendil]

Are people seriously trash-talking ESO when the game isn't even released yet? LOL.
So the game has some PvP in it. So what? If that's a reason to not play its endgame, then what do you think the incentive is here in DDO? To run the same dungeon over, and over, and over, and over again? And, oh wait, we can reset our character and level back to cap again over, and over, and over again. Wow, how exciting.
Seriously, if this game can hold subscribers with it's mind-numbingly boring repetition at endgame, I'm sure a new game like ESO stands a pretty good chance at surviving.

And need I even remind people that ESO is still under NDA?

Interesting about Pathfinder Online, though. Hadn't heard about that one, but it's going to be a good one to keep an eye on. Pathfinder has taken a tabletop spot on par with, if not passing, D&D. So an online version shows promise.

[Forzah]

Citation needed.

Do you really need a citation for that? Time-wise it's already close to impossible to play actively on multiple servers at the same time.

[Chai]

Do you really need a citation for that? Time-wise it's already close to impossible to play actively on multiple servers at the same time.

Thats not what is being talked about here. The data is inflated when more people log onto a different server daily, which is very easy to do. Its also inflated when people use multiple accounts on the same server. What is being measured is account log ons per day per server.

If he is trying to say people dont use multiple accounts or play on multiple serves, yes, citation needed.

[Teh_Troll]

You don't think pathfinder will compete with DDO?

EQ next has a chance as well.

Many of the folks that were here for the D&D aspect are gone. A lot of what is left now are the FPS folks.

LOLz . . . Pathfinder Online is vaporware.

[Chai]

MAy be less expensive, bit also a lot clumsier, unless you have several toons active at a time. In my case its also the more boring solution, since i like having a lot to choose from. Both level and class-wise. And since i dont use the store to buy pots, stones, hearts, or anything like that, its not that expensive. And i dont need mules, since the toons that need them, use them. All in all, having several accounts would be counterproductive in my case.

Oh, and the memoryleak has never been an issue for me for some reason.

Nope, its actually far less clumsy. You think a trading between two logged in accounts is MORE clumsy than having to put something into shared, log off, log back on, collect item, etc.....

The second btw is FREE, so not only is using a mule on the same account more clumsy, it is eiqual to or less expensive than making a free account. The free account method also doesnt invoke the memory leak anywhere near as quickly as the same account multiple log off method does.

[Forzah]

Thats not what is being talked about here. The data is inflated when more people log onto a different server daily, which is very easy to do. Its also inflated when people use multiple accounts on the same server. What is being measured is account log ons per day per server.

If he is trying to say people dont use multiple accounts or play on multiple serves, yes, citation needed.

The amount of players that does this is at most 10%, so just remove 10% from the estimate and you'll have a conservative estimate for the number of players.

[bartharok]

Nope, its actually far less clumsy. You think a trading between two logged in accounts is MORE clumsy than having to put something into shared, log off, log back on, collect item, etc.....

The second btw is FREE, so not only is using a mule on the same account more clumsy, it is eiqual to or less expensive than making a free account. The free account method also doesnt invoke the memory leak anywhere near as quickly as the same account multiple log off method does.

If i need an item on some other toon, i just put it into shared bank and take it out when i next log into that toon. Far easier. I dont have to do ANYTHING other than put it into the bank. No logging, no nothing. Its called thinking ahead. And i dont use mules, as i already said, if i dont have the room to keep something, i dump it.

Might have something to do with the fact that fun and power are not synonomous to me, and that i dont mind if i lose an item. I can get another at some point, or i might not. But neither really matters, as long as i have fun playing the game, which is something that gear does not help me ot have.

[Chai]

If i need an item on some other toon, i just put it into shared bank and take it out when i next log into that toon. Far easier. I dont have to do ANYTHING other than put it into the bank. No logging, no nothing. Its called thinking ahead. And i dont use mules, as i already said, if i dont have the room to keep something, i dump it.

No logging? How are you getting from one toon to the other with no logging?

No, it is not far easier than logging onto another toon on another account, and trading the item over, which is the real method that requires no logging.


Might have something to do with the fact that fun and power are not synonomous to me, and that i dont mind if i lose an item. I can get another at some point, or i might not. But neither really matters, as long as i have fun playing the game, which is something that gear does not help me ot have.

Saying you will go without the item in this conversation is like saying youd rather walk, in a debate about which car is better. Hilarious.

[DakDeFrosted]

And some active accounts log in 1-2 times a WEEK. Some active accounts don't log in more than a few times a month. Using that math you actually have more than 100k active accounts depending on when you took your 100k login snapshot.


In reality it probably averages out.


What I love is how people in this thread use the 'rule of me' to figure out the numbers. "If I log in x times/day/week/month that means everyone else does too."


Fallacious thinking.

I was making a point about how silly it is to make correlations between login numbers and actual accounts. Which I thought was pretty obvious.

[Chai]

LOLz . . . Pathfinder Online is vaporware.

And look how fast their kickstarter got them up to speed, showing there is indeed a demand for an actual D&D based game. Shadowrun is another example.

[Teh_Troll]

And look how fast their kickstarter got them up to speed, showing there is indeed a demand for an actual D&D based game. Shadowrun is another example.

They were funded a YEAR ago . .. and nothing.

I'd love more D&D in DDO, and less FoS.

[Chai]

The amount of players that does this is at most 10%, so just remove 10% from the estimate and you'll have a conservative estimate for the number of players.

A few years ago you may have been right about this. Nowdays, Id challenge that claim. F2P accounts have made it easy to use multiple account for all the things I stated. Heck, look how many sockpuppet accounts get created on these very forums alone as of late, all associated with an in game account.

[Chai]

They were funded a YEAR ago . .. and nothing.

I'd love more D&D in DDO, and less FoS.

It takes alot longer than a year to create an MMO.

[bartharok]

No logging? How are you getting from one toon to the other with no logging?

No, it is not far easier than logging onto another toon on another account, and trading the item over, which is the real method that requires no logging.



Saying you will go without the item in this conversation is like saying youd rather walk, in a debate about which car is better. Hilarious.

Primus: I said that i dont need to log between characters to trade the item. I keep it in the bank until i want to play the other toon. At which point i take it out. You need to log more often than me in this scenario, since i log only to play, not to trade.

Secundus: The reason i can do this, is that i can go without an item. This is the reason my bank always has space for keeping stuff in it.

Tertiemus: No cars in evidence, only your need to be right.

[bartharok]

It takes alot longer than a year to create an MMO.

A playable one, at least.

[Shorlong]

These numbers are flat out false, being massively exaggerated by roughly 25%. You can't even read a graph properly, nor cite your sources. Why should people take your arguments seriously? It's like you are being paid by turbine to astroturf - nobody is buying it.

According to DDO Oracle, I am correct. There are 6 servers getting between 10-14k people logging in each day. The average number seen there is right at 12k. That in and of itself is 72k, on average. Ghallanda sometimes dips down to around the 18k range, and spikes up to 25k, but usually sits around 22k a day. Now we're at 94k. Then there is wayfinder...poor wayfinder. Dips down to close to a thousand (has in the past, not in the picture I am providing) and it's peak is just over 4k. Averages around 3k. So now, we're at 97,000 players. Are some of these relogs, people switching toons or multiple accounts? Yes, they sure are. What is the amount? Impossible to say. From what I have seen from other players, if I were doing a survey based off of what I have been told, I would assume around 2-4k of these can be taken off (sorry, Wayfinder...) from that. We still have over 90k players IN THE WINTER, during months that we are known to have a lower playerbase.

Just saying, I know how to read a **** graph, and most people know my source as they use it, too.

http://ddoracle.com/images/serverLoadMonthly.big.png

[Chai]

Primus: I said that i dont need to log between characters to trade the item. I keep it in the bank until i want to play the other toon. At which point i take it out. You need to log more often than me in this scenario, since i log only to play, not to trade.

Nope, try the same amount, and im getting the item now rather than waiting for it. I can also have the mule logged on waiting. Convenience advantage, person with a f2p mule account.


Secundus: The reason i can do this, is that i can go without an item. This is the reason my bank always has space for keeping stuff in it.

Like I said before, in this discussion saying you can go without the item is like saying youd rather walk, in a debate about which car is better.


Tertiemus: No cars in evidence, only your need to be right.

I figured youd attempt to turn it into a personal discussion at some point. Not interested.

[Firepants]

New players are getting through he game too quickly because of the expansion of epic content.

people spend more of their time in epic than they do leveling it seems. So criticizing that heroic is "too easy" is probably because Turbine wants them to get into epic levels sooner than we used to before.
Yes, basically Turbine used D&D for the heroic levels and is now modeling Epic after WoW. So we get two disparate systems trying to play together instead of one unified system that makes sense and flows well together. No the D&D system isn't perfect, but it's what the game is based on and should be the defacto ruleset from which everything else is generated. Instead we get micro advancement, a small group of abilities that work and a majority of abilities that are junk/useless/fluff.

Think of it this way, for Heroic advancement we're using the British Imperial system. For Epic we're using Metric. While they can work together, it's best to just pick one and stop screwing around with excessive conversions/complexity involved with juggling two similar yet different systems. Imagine driving down a highway that constantly flips the speed limits between BI and Metric with no rhyme or reason? That'd be a nice payday for the cops sitting back waiting for you to screw up. Turbine, in this analogy, acts as the cops, profiting off of the confusion and nonsense that comes from the constant shifting between systems. It's a terrible, predatory, and extortionist way to run a company but there you have it.

Unfortunately I do not believe anyone in Turbine knows jack squat about designing systems, so we will never ever ever get a functional, holistic, approach to all systems in game. We'll continue to get bits and pieces of half baked ideas and all of the frustration and idiocy that comes with such short sightedness. The best thing that could happen to DDO now would be for them to wrap up Epic levels, toss in a couple more end game raid/questlines, and in the meantime get another development team busy converting D&D Next to a new DDO (this should have started maybe 2 years ago). Use a unified system, stick to that system, and have a producer/manager/whatever enforce that system.

[Chai]

According to DDO Oracle, I am correct. There are 6 servers getting between 10-14k people logging in each day. The average number seen there is right at 12k. That in and of itself is 72k, on average. Ghallanda sometimes dips down to around the 18k range, and spikes up to 25k, but usually sits around 22k a day. Now we're at 94k. Then there is wayfinder...poor wayfinder. Dips down to close to a thousand (has in the past, not in the picture I am providing) and it's peak is just over 4k. Averages around 3k. So now, we're at 97,000 players. Are some of these relogs, people switching toons or multiple accounts? Yes, they sure are. What is the amount? Impossible to say. From what I have seen from other players, if I were doing a survey based off of what I have been told, I would assume around 2-4k of these can be taken off (sorry, Wayfinder...) from that. We still have over 90k players IN THE WINTER, during months that we are known to have a lower playerbase.

Just saying, I know how to read a **** graph, and most people know my source as they use it, too.

http://ddoracle.com/images/serverLoadMonthly.big.png

If youre discounting wayfinder and G-land, None of those reach 14k, one barely makes 13.5 on one day. 2 servers only hit 11k one time, and theres only 2 other servers that pass 13k, and one more that gets past 12k.

Ive been using this soure for a while to show log ons as correlation to declining population, and those who have tried to demonize the data realize that doing so only makes it look worse, not better, as the number of folks logging onto multiple servers + the number of people using f2p mules, makes the number of PLAYERS who are logging in smaller than the number of ACCOUNTS.

[bartharok]

Nope, try the same amount, and im getting the item now rather than waiting for it. I can also have the mule logged on waiting. Convenience advantage, person with a f2p mule account.


If im playing on toon X and i get an item some other toon could use, i put it into my shared bank. Why is it more convenient to have the item on a mule when im not going to play the toon that needs it at that moment?


Like I said before, in this discussion saying you can go without the item is like saying youd rather walk, in a debate about which car is better.

Its a matter of how i can, not preference. If i cant live without the stuff i have, my bank is full constantly, since the amount of items i can have is limited. This is why i dont need mules. Nothing to do with anything else.



I figured youd attempt to turn it into a personal discussion at some point. Not interested.

Oh, its you who take it personally, not me who turns it personal.

[Chai]

If im playing on toon X and i get an item some other toon could use, i put it into my shared bank. Why is it more convenient to have the item on a mule when im not going to play the toon that needs it at that moment?

Thats the only time is not more convenient, but my method isnt less convenient in any case. Your method will be less convenient the minute you realize you need an item on another toon you want to play. Dont aqct like this never happens, especially after you claimed to hae alot of alts. You are either going without the item (less convenient) or you are puching the memory leak clock by logging off and on then off and on again to transfer. The f2p mule method is free, and never runs into this inconvenience issue.


Its a matter of how i can, not preference.

How you play IS a preference.


If i cant live without the stuff i have, my bank is full constantly, since the amount of items i can have is limited. This is why i dont need mules. Nothing to do with anything else.

Which is less convenient than being able to use the items you have with a minimal hassle transfer that requires no log offs.


Oh, its you who take it personally, not me who turns it personal.

Incorrect, Im addressing what you typed, while you make flippant remarks about my supposed "need to be right" -this personal banter is always right on time, and appears when the ammo for the discussion runs out. As I said before, not interested.

[bartharok]

Thats the only time is not more convenient, but my method isnt less convenient in any case. Your method will be less convenient the minute you realize you need an item on another toon you want to play. Dont aqct like this never happens, especially after you claimed to hae alot of alts. You are either going without the item (less convenient) or you are puching the memory leak clock by logging off and on then off and on again to transfer. The f2p mule method is free, and never runs into this inconvenience issue. .

Just a question. Wont having several toons logged (ok, 2) Make it more likely to have lag and memoryleak (unless you use two comps, of course).

Another thing. If you need the item NOW!!! you will need to log onto one toon to trade it to the mule, and then to the toon that needs it anyway.

I just use the bankspace i have to keep the items, and then they can be taken out of the bank when i need them.

There is actually only one item that causes me trouble, and thatsthe greater nimble trinket. I have only one, and 10 toons that could use it. The solution is that i have it on one toon at a time, and live without it the rest of the time. Doesnt give me any trouble, though, since i can bypass the need easy enough.

[bartharok]

Incorrect, Im addressing what you typed, while you make flippant remarks about my supposed "need to be right" -this personal banter is always right on time, and appears when the ammo for the discussion runs out. As I said before, not interested.

And this is taking things personal. There is no prize to be had, so it shouldnt matter to you anyway.

[Munkenmo]

I dont understand your argument here chai.

Are you trying to say its more convenient for a player to have all of their toons on seperate accounts for item trading?

[Chai]

Just a question. Wont having several toons logged (ok, 2) Make it more likely to have lag and memoryleak (unless you use two comps, of course).

No, a memory leak (most common scenario) is when memory is used but not released. This game experiences a memory leak when you log off and back on. Youll notice it more and more as you log off and back on more and more. Being logged on 2 different accounts doesnt foster a memory leak situation like needing to log off, log on alt, out item in bank, log off, and log back on does.


Another thing. If you need the item NOW!!! you will need to log onto one toon to trade it to the mule, and then to the toon that needs it anyway.

Nope, see above.


I just use the bankspace i have to keep the items, and then they can be taken out of the bank when i need them.

Which is less convenient than being able to transfer the item with no log offs needed.


There is actually only one item that causes me trouble, and thatsthe greater nimble trinket. I have only one, and 10 toons that could use it. The solution is that i have it on one toon at a time, and live without it the rest of the time. Doesnt give me any trouble, though, since i can bypass the need easy enough.

making due without is less convenient than having the item at my disposal whenever I want it. My system gives me both convenience and the ability to bypass the memory leak clock. You are basically outlining how you choose between one or the other. At no point in time is my solution less convenient than yours. Saying youre willing to live with less convenience doesnt equate to having a more efficient system.

[Chai]

And this is taking things personal. There is no prize to be had, so it shouldnt matter to you anyway.

Nope, this is pointing it out, and nothing more. If I took the sheer amount of trolling that has been leveled my way personal over the years I wouldnt have lasted on these forums. I point out when people make personal remarks, because they do so in leiu of addressing the actual discussion, and its usually a clear indication of having run out of ammo that supports their stance on the issue.

[digitaljc]

Should we ever get a DDO2, here's hoping character imports are considered :)

[Chai]

Should we ever get a DDO2, here's hoping character imports are considered :)

WB already handed the most recent license to PW/Cryptic, and made them base the game on 4e.

[bartharok]

Nope, this is pointing it out, and nothing more. If I took the sheer amount of trolling that has been leveled my way personal over the years I wouldnt have lasted on these forums. I point out when people make personal remarks, because they do so in leiu of addressing the actual discussion, and its usually a clear indication of having run out of ammo that supports their stance on the issue.

Ok, ill make one personal comment. Your mode of communicating on the forums is one that WILL invite personal remarks. And the fact that you point out every personal comment as a victory of yours, is making people make more. And the current situation is that people are quite likely to make personal comments just because its you. And even when they dont, you are likely to assume they are because of one of the above reasons. This is not constructive, from neither point of view (yours or the people making the comments)

[Syrrah]

A few years ago you may have been right about this. Nowdays, Id challenge that claim. F2P accounts have made it easy to use multiple account for all the things I stated. Heck, look how many sockpuppet accounts get created on these very forums alone as of late, all associated with an in game account.

Out of curiosity, I just did a small ingame survey on how many people log in on multiple accounts on a daily basis.

I did 5 quests, each with a full party and no hireling (got to love byoh). Party #2 had someone from party #1. Party #4 had someone from party #1 as well (coincidence). This is a total of 6 (incl. myself) + 4 + 5 + 4 + 5 = 24

Then I asked in guild chat if anyone switches account on a daily basis. I'm in a large guild but only 9 people were online (1 of which was me). 7 more logged in and out (of which I am sure they are different people) while I was running the 5 quests. So another 15 people.

I did not check in my friends list, as (1) most of my "friends" list is filled with people who I try to avoid and (2) several real friends were already in the 5 parties I quested with.

Then I asked in harbor chat. According to the social screen we had around 90 people in the harbor at that time (add a couple of anonymouse as well). Risia is still popular it seems! [Note this number is a wild guess, I couldn't be bothered to count.]

Then I asked in market chat. Around 23 people there excl. myself

Then I asked in Eveningstar chat. 14 there excl. myself.

To be sure, I repeated each question 3 times in all 3 general chats.

So I reached 166 people. The short answer: zero of which log in on multiple accounts on a daily basis.

The statistics:

- I got 42 replies incl. myself. This was almost exclusively from the party and guild chat. I sent some /tells to the people who replied to get more info as well.
- 3 did not know what I was talking about (I assume that most people who did not know simply did not reply).
- 4 people confirmed they multibox about once per week, either for muling or for opening quests.
- 6 people (incl. myself) confirmed that they multibox sometimes, but definitely not a lot. In my case: about once a month with my Bloody & Shadow Crypt opener.
- 11 people confirmed to sometimes log into an alternate account, not at the same time as their main. "Sometimes" ranged between "once or twice per week" and "only first and last day of Mabra" (sic) - so not a lot either. Note: these 11 include the 4 from 2 bullets above and 5 from 1 bullet above.
- 0 people confirmed that they multibox for actual questing with the alternate accounts.
- 0 confirmed that they switch between 2 or more accounts on a near daily basis for any reason.

I admit the sample may be too small to actually draw conclusions, but I think that the number of active multi-account user is very, very small.

Sure there are several people who do manage more than one account, but how many of those actually switch between those accounts on a single day? I could not find any. It cannot exceed 10% of the playerbase.


Funny anecdote: my current main account was originally a bank account that I created in 2010, just so I could easily transfer stuff multiboxing in Sandboxxie. When I switched from Argo to Khyber, I decided to just restart with the mule account which had more TP left than the main, thanks to the favor gained with levelling multiple bank toons on different servers. :D This muling ended when I invested in my shared bank btw.

[bartharok]

making due without is less convenient than having the item at my disposal whenever I want it. My system gives me both convenience and the ability to bypass the memory leak clock. You are basically outlining how you choose between one or the other. At no point in time is my solution less convenient than yours. Saying youre willing to live with less convenience doesnt equate to having a more efficient system.

(made the text shorter for conveniences sake, nothing else) I rarely have any need for a certain item on more than one toon anyway, since my toon vary radically from eachother when it comes to the need for items.

The one item i could use on all of my toons, i could justas easily just drop into my bank, and then pick it up with any other toon as needed when i log onto them, which would be rather easy, since all toons would just log out near a bank.

But i have absolutely no need for it. If i MUST have one item on a toon, i think i have made a bad toon, since the items are supposed ( in my opinion) to be buffs, not necesstties.

[Chai]

Ok, ill make one personal comment. Your mode of communicating on the forums is one that WILL invite personal remarks.

If someone cant debate an issue sans making personal attacks they shouldnt be debating an issue at all. As for attempting to blame making personal attacks on my method of communication....cute, but no, this is false. They can refrain if they choose to, they simply do not choose to.


And the fact that you point out every personal comment as a victory of yours, is making people make more.

Yes people continue to behave poorly when their personal jaunts did not illicit the response they were looking for.


And even when they dont, you are likely to assume they are because of one of the above reasons. This is not constructive, from neither point of view (yours or the people making the comments)

Assume? its been proven. No assumption is being made.


And the current situation is that people are quite likely to make personal comments just because its you.

Yeap, lack of control of their own personal bias. I do note however that this is not true for most, upwards of 99% of forumites. Its a very small but very loud minority that engage in this behavior of trolling those who they disagreed with in the past automatically, due to not being able to handle disagreement on the internet, and having nothing to refute what is stated, but still wanting to disagree, so what gets posted is personal jabs and jaunts. Other than pointing out, they do not warrant a response.

[Azarddoze]

If someone cant debate an issue sans making personal attacks they shouldnt be debating an issue at all. As for attempting to blame making personal attacks on my method of communication....cute, but no, this is false. They can refrain if they choose to, they simply do not choose to.

I know that you might know better what I actually know... but this is kinda true. Envy? Temptation? You're "debating about a game" on a forum with humans, not some people who tried to master "how to win every argument". It's easy to push someone on the edge of madness then pretend they resolved to personal attack... come on now.

So while I shouldn't be writing this and it doesn't really matter... it's true. Like you'd say, it's a fact which has been proven several times over the years.

See what envy and temptation made me do? That's real life.

[Chai]

Out of curiosity, I just did a small ingame survey on how many people log in on multiple accounts on a daily basis.

I did 5 quests, each with a full party and no hireling (got to love byoh). Party #2 had someone from party #1. Party #4 had someone from party #1 as well (coincidence). This is a total of 6 (incl. myself) + 4 + 5 + 4 + 5 = 24

Then I asked in guild chat if anyone switches account on a daily basis. I'm in a large guild but only 9 people were online (1 of which was me). 7 more logged in and out (of which I am sure they are different people) while I was running the 5 quests. So another 15 people.

I did not check in my friends list, as (1) most of my "friends" list is filled with people who I try to avoid and (2) several real friends were already in the 5 parties I quested with.

Then I asked in harbor chat. According to the social screen we had around 90 people in the harbor at that time (add a couple of anonymouse as well). Risia is still popular it seems! [Note this number is a wild guess, I couldn't be bothered to count.]

Then I asked in market chat. Around 23 people there excl. myself

Then I asked in Eveningstar chat. 14 there excl. myself.

To be sure, I repeated each question 3 times in all 3 general chats.

So I reached 166 people. The short answer: zero of which log in on multiple accounts on a daily basis.

The statistics:

- I got 42 replies incl. myself. This was almost exclusively from the party and guild chat. I sent some /tells to the people who replied to get more info as well.
- 3 did not know what I was talking about (I assume that most people who did not know simply did not reply).
- 4 people confirmed they multibox about once per week, either for muling or for opening quests.
- 6 people (incl. myself) confirmed that they multibox sometimes, but definitely not a lot. In my case: about once a month with my Bloody & Shadow Crypt opener.
- 11 people confirmed to sometimes log into an alternate account, not at the same time as their main. "Sometimes" ranged between "once or twice per week" and "only first and last day of Mabra" (sic) - so not a lot either. Note: these 11 include the 4 from 2 bullets above and 5 from 1 bullet above.
- 0 people confirmed that they multibox for actual questing with the alternate accounts.
- 0 confirmed that they switch between 2 or more accounts on a near daily basis for any reason.

I admit the sample may be too small to actually draw conclusions, but I think that the number of active multi-account user is very, very small.

Sure there are several people who do manage more than one account, but how many of those actually switch between those accounts on a single day? I could not find any. It cannot exceed 10% of the playerbase.

Not only is that sample size extremely small, but you also dont get to include everyone who did not respond as either a yes or a no response. You are going about it the right way though, rather than just throwing guess percentages out there and saying you dont buy anyones explanation that disagrees.

I believe the number of multi account users to be larget than it was in the past, because f2p created a situation where people can have more storage free of charge, and trade items sans having to log off. The convenience factor is there, and the price is right.


Funny anecdote: my current main account was originally a bank account that I created in 2010, just so I could easily transfer stuff multiboxing in Sandboxxie. When I switched from Argo to Khyber, I decided to just restart with the mule account which had more TP left than the main, thanks to the favor gained with levelling multiple bank toons on different servers. :D This muling ended when I invested in my shared bank btw.

Right, so you made the choice to invest the points into shared bank. Those who do not wish to or havent gotten that far yet mule it. Also, ive met quite a few people with multiple sorcs on their account for leveling purposes. Folks have them at the necro 1, 2, 3, and 4 levels to plow their alts through those quests. This is not new and has been happening or quite some time, including when the game was sub only.

[Azarddoze]

...How do you thing the game needs to change for the better?...


Sometimes I feel like the DDO community is hurting itself (mostly the forum community I guess) by taking what other says for granted. Like if it was the only way to play, win, be happy doing so, etc.

But really it's been too long without any kind of "lasting" end game. Whenever one of my MMO player friend ask me about a new game, it's always "Is there any endgame? Is there anything to do at cap?". Endgame does not only bring content and stuff to do at cap, it also stabilize a good portion of the playerbase on the same content.

It's not that DDO lack content in general, but really, high levels are laughable right now and I see no reason to play atm and I doubt I am the only one. In fact, last time I logged and asked around what people were doing, I think the only answers I got were: Von 3.

Creating a lasting endgame will solve several problems.

Then theres P2W which still haunts even the one that don't use it and aren't affected much by it (to a certain extent)... That one problem will never be solved in f2p games. It always evolve dangerously... but we know that now in 2014, don't we?

[bartharok]

Yes people continue to behave poorly when their personal jaunts did not illicit the response they were looking for.



Assume? its been proven. No assumption is being made.

Ill adress these two things.

First point: You dismissing everything someone says because of one personal comment made because you have worn their patience thin, is insulting and a personal attack, even when not intended as one.

Second point: It hasnt been proven in every case, so no need to generalize. Some people have attacked you for being Chai, the DDO forumite. But they are not everybody. Granted, some will slash at you as soon as you post, but those can safely be ignored. But not everybody who pushes their opinion is attacking you, even when your instincts tells you they are.

[Chai]

I know that you might know better what I actually know... but this is kinda true. Envy? Temptation? You're "debating about a game" on a forum with humans, not some people who tried to master "how to win every argument". It's easy to push someone on the edge of madness then pretend they resolved to personal attack... come on now.

Youd be surprised at how far some of those humans who are debating a game on a forum go to demonize anything and everything said by those who disagree, due to having nothing else constructive to contribute to the actual discussion. If reading posts that disagree with theirs is pushing them to madness, they should refrain from using the internet. There is no "pretending" they resolved to personal attack, when the evidence is right there in their post.


So while I shouldn't be writing this and it doesn't really matter... it's true. Like you'd say, it's a fact which has been proven several times over the years.

See what envy and temptation made me do? That's real life.

Nope, not true. The crowd who engages in this is very small and very loud, but they dont know the person they direct their personal remarks towards. I have also played with most of the folks guilty of this on the forums, in game, and they do not engage in the same behavior, due to knowing full well that its not just their forum posting privy that is at risk for doing the same in game. They are able to make rational decisions about how they communicate, but choose not to when theres nothing at risk for behaving poorly.

[Chai]

First point: You dismissing everything someone says because of one personal comment made because you have worn their patience thin, is insulting and a personal attack, even when not intended as one.

This is incorrect. I addressed everything you said in separate quotes first, then quoted the personal jaunt and pointed it out for what it is. There was no dismissal of everything else stated whatsoever. And are you actually attempting to blame others wearing your patience thin for your personal attacks toward them? If so, the issue is not them. You do have a choice, and can refrain from that behavior, but if you choose to do it anyhow, ima continue to point it out. This "its the other guys fault when you behave badly" stuff, does not hold water.


Second point: It hasnt been proven in every case, so no need to generalize. Some people have attacked you for being Chai, the DDO forumite. But they are not everybody. Granted, some will slash at you as soon as you post, but those can safely be ignored. But not everybody who pushes their opinion is attacking you, even when your instincts tells you they are.

Ive already posted this very point. I quote the actual attack and point it out as such. Theres no other need for personal banter on these discussions, and they fact that they engage in it, simply tells me that they ran out of logical support for their stance. WHen that logical support exists they do not engage in this behavior. Congrats on turning another thread into yet another multi post personal discussion about my posting habbits. If you do not like personal jaunts pointed out and exposed for what they are, then refrain from making personal jaunts. It is that simple.

P.S. My last 5 or 6 conversations with you have turned out to be centered around this very same topic regarding my posting habbits. Theres no other forumites whose previous 5 or 6 conversations with myself have been about this same thing you seem to be obsessed about. Please refrain from making personal remarks after quoting my posts in the future. We have spoken about this enough.

[bartharok]

This is incorrect. I addressed everything you said in separate quotes first, then quoted the personal jaunt and pointed it out for what it is. There was no dismissal of everything else stated whatsoever.



Ive already posted this very point. I quote the actual attack and point it out as such. Theres no other need for personal banter on these discussions, and they fact that they engage in it, simply tells me that they ran out of logical support for their stance. WHen that logical support exists they do not engage in this behavior. Congrats on turning another thread into yet another multi post personal discussion about my posting habbits. If you do not like personal jaunts pointed out and exposed for what they are, then refrain from making personal jaunts. It is that simple.

This is personal again, since i adress you. You cant have a conversation without a personal element in it. It quite simply impossible, unless you have no personality what so ever. Which i doubt is the case of anyone on these forums. Your claim that the personal comment are because they have run out of ammo is a dismissive comment. No matter how you intend it, it is. That is my point.

Consider that you may perceive an attack where none exist. Since this is quite possible, even probable at times. Most people tend to make sideways comments, that are not meant to have anything to do with the discussion. Just something to make the thing less serious. Also known as a joke. Not all jokes made regarding you are attacks, and do not need to be taken as such.

[Azarddoze]

Nope, not true. The crowd who engages in this is very small and very loud, but they dont know the person they direct their personal remarks towards. I have also played with most of the folks guilty of this on the forums, in game, and they do not engage in the same behavior, due to knowing full well that its not just their forum posting privy that is at risk for doing the same in game. They are able to make rational decisions about how they communicate, but choose not to when theres nothing at risk for behaving poorly.

That's one cool story. I mostly liked the part when you were solving the puzzle while tanking the dragon. That was neat.


Youd be surprised at how far some of those humans who are debating a game on a forum go to demonize anything and everything said by those who disagree, due to having nothing else constructive to contribute to the actual discussion. If reading posts that disagree with theirs is pushing them to madness, they should refrain from using the internet. There is no "pretending" they resolved to personal attack, when the evidence is right there in their post.


And yeah... if I push someone on the edge (intentionally or not - but using the same patterns which does make some people feel the need to attack), while it may not be pretending (pardon my english), let's say it's being "provocated". Is that better? Once again, intentionally or not. You have to understand the effect it causes to some when someone just wipe out everything they say only to stick with that one thing they've been saying for years. Even if all is true, some are easely irritated by that, plain and simple.

[Alavatar]

If you're having issues debating with Chai's dismissive and contrarian attitude I recommend putting him on your Ignore list. It has worked wonders for me.

[bartharok]

If you're having issues debating with Chai's dismissive and contrarian attitude I recommend putting him on your Ignore list. It has worked wonders for me.

Im trying to educate him about the effects of his style of conversing. I know ill probably fail, but i have hope.

[Alavatar]

Im trying to educate him about the effects of his style of conversing. I know ill probably fail, but i have hope.

I have tried several times in the past. He never acknowledged or attempted to resolve the unintentional frustration he may cause. I personally think he enjoys it when other people get frustrated.

[bartharok]

I have tried several times in the past. He never acknowledged or attempted to resolve the unintentional frustration he may cause. I personally think he enjoys it when other people get frustrated.

I fear he does, but hope he doesnt. I like to think the best of people, and other than the style of conversing, he doesnt seem too bad.

[Trogloditas]

Citw is dead because of Raid boxes.
Most other raid raids dead because of duping.
Shroud still alive because Monk/Druid still farming shards for additional GS shurikens.
VoN still alive because there still are players who believe in SoS shard.

[Thrudh]

If he is trying to say people dont use multiple accounts or play on multiple serves, yes, citation needed.

If you're trying to say more than 10% do, then you need to provide a citation as well.

I imagine very few people play on multiple servers the same day. But, hey I could be wrong... But you sure don't know either.

[Chai]

If you're having issues debating with Chai's dismissive and contrarian attitude I recommend putting him on your Ignore list. It has worked wonders for me.

Yes please do. If people cant stand to read opposing viewpoints in a debate to the point wher etheir only possible action is to make personal remarks, the ignore function is the best solution. Ive put most of the known offenders over the years on ignore as well. The only issue that arises afterward is when they show up again on a sock puppet account after wearing out their welcome on their main.

[Chai]

If you're trying to say more than 10% do, then you need to provide a citation as well.

I imagine very few people play on multiple servers the same day. But, hey I could be wrong... But you sure don't know either.

I didnt make the claim. He did.

I also find it ironic that folks who attempted to demonize the evidence provided by DDO Oracle over the years are now attempting to extrapolate favorable colclusions from that same data themselves.

[Thrudh]

Ok, ill make one personal comment. Your mode of communicating on the forums is one that WILL invite personal remarks. And the fact that you point out every personal comment as a victory of yours, is making people make more. And the current situation is that people are quite likely to make personal comments just because its you. And even when they dont, you are likely to assume they are because of one of the above reasons. This is not constructive, from neither point of view (yours or the people making the comments)

Chai is the least effective communicator I've ever known... And I've known autistic kids who can't even speak. But Chai's style of arguing ensures that no one will change their opinion to his, and quite a few people reading his threads will start believing the opposite of his opinion just because it's coming from him.

[enochiancub]

Why even indulge their need to argue with people on here anyway? We all know how it's going to turn out.

Also, kudos yet again for mentioning sock puppet accounts. It's good for the goose but not the gander eh?

[bartosy]

I play ddo mostly because its easy not to play.

All my friends I had are long gone and quit, i think out
Of the 60 on all accounts i got 3 active friends left.

These days i just log on and chill on my solo level 67 guildship
With all +2 stat boosts and +30 resists and replace the buffs when
Needed. Its the closest thing to a house you get in ddo.

Then you look at the guild roster and realise people havent been on for 6 months
To more then a year..

It's a lonely dreary and cold place ebberon..

Especially if you dont have the fundings to buy otto boxes and experience and forced to the run
The same **** you already did for 25 lives..

Lfm von 3 elite BB !!

It feels my retinas are made of plasma and those words are burned in there now together with some kobold
Shamans and dank dreary green brown color from the ddo instances.

Just waiting for garriots new mmorpg shroud of the avatar. At least they know mmos arent all about hack and slash
And running the same thng over and over again like a hamster.

[twigzz]

if you're having issues debating with chai's dismissive and contrarian attitude i recommend putting him on your ignore list. It has worked wonders for me.

qft

[Forzah]

Not only is that sample size extremely small, but you also dont get to include everyone who did not respond as either a yes or a no response. You are going about it the right way though, rather than just throwing guess percentages out there and saying you dont buy anyones explanation that disagrees.

I believe the number of multi account users to be larget than it was in the past, because f2p created a situation where people can have more storage free of charge, and trade items sans having to log off. The convenience factor is there, and the price is right.

Certainly the amount of second accounts is going to be higher than before F2P, I'll give you that. There's probably quite a few people who have made a second account. However, it will not affect daily logins a lot, for the following reasons:

-The majority of players don't use second account mules,
-Most important items are BTC or BTA,
-People who do use second account mules don't log onto them on daily basis.

Mules are only going to account for a small increase in daily logins. Same for multiboxing, since it's a fairly rare phenomenon, really.

That said, the numbers are inflated, because they are not measuring what you think. Look at the daily graph for Ghallanda: the average number of logins per hour is approximately 900. The total logins are then 900*24 = 21600. This is approximately what we see in the graph with daily logins. However, if you login every hour, you would account for 24 persons in the graph with daily logins! The graph with logins per day doesn't give the amount of unique logins at all. This is the main reason why the numbers are off... many people are counted double.

[Chai]

Im trying to educate him about the effects of his style of conversing. I know ill probably fail, but i have hope.

Ive seen some of the blowouts youve had with other forumites as well, so you having this idea that you are somehow educating me on posting habbits is hilarious. This is why Im asking you to refrain from making personal comments at all. If you can do so we can discuss issues, but if not, well...its not making me look bad when Im continuing to discuss the topic and youre attempting to turn it into a personal rant about my posting habbits.

[Teh_Troll]

Why bother trying to convince people of anything?

We all know I'm right and all you warm-blooded simians should bow before me.

[Chai]

Certainly the amount of second accounts is going to be higher than before F2P, I'll give you that. There's probably quite a few people who have made a second account. However, it will not affect daily logins a lot, for the following reasons:

Ill address those.


-The majority of players don't use second account mules,

But the number of folks who do is significant. The reason why people are attempting to refute this, in most cases, is because they realize that this points to less players logging in, which is something they do not wish to believe.


-Most important items are BTC or BTA,

Most are BTCoE. Raid loot is BTC and that is obtained by playing the same character inthe raid.


-People who do use second account mules don't log onto them on daily basis.

Why wouldnt they. Why wouldnt they also be logging onto their leveling toons on those accounts as stated in my previous posts?


Mules are only going to account for a small increase in daily logins. Same for multiboxing, since it's a fairly rare phenomenon, really.

Not since the f2p era allows us to create free accounts. Heck, when dupe-a-palooza was happening, look at how many folks were posting on sock puppet accounts and still playing low level alts on mule accounts.

I dont believe that, because when measuring logins on a account/day/server basis, it only takes one mule log in to effectively double the amount of log ins by the same person.


That said, the numbers are inflated, because they are not measuring what you think. Look at the daily graph for Ghallanda: the average number of logins per hour is approximately 900. The total logins are then 900*24 = 21600. This is approximately what we see in the graph with daily logins. However, if you login every hour, you would account for 24 persons in the graph with daily logins! The graph with logins per day doesn't give the amount of unique logins at all. This is the main reason why the numbers are off... many people are counted double.

Yes, and even those inflated numbers are in decline. Those who attempted to demonize this evidence in the past are realizing that if the numbers are indeed off, they are evidence of LESS players than the infirmation shows, not more, as they wish it to be, so now some are backpedaling and attempting to act like alt accounts have minimal impact.

[Chai]

Why bother trying to convince people of anything?

We all know I'm right and all you warm-blooded simians should bow before me.

Is bowing how the hjeal spell is cast?

[Forzah]

But the number of folks who do is significant. The reason why people are attempting to refute this, in most cases, is because they realize that this points to less players logging in, which is something they do not wish to believe.

I dont believe that, because when measuring logins on a account/day/server basis, it only takes one mule log in to effectively double the amount of log ins by the same person.

Please give me an estimate then. What percentage of the population do you think logs onto multiple accounts on daily basis?



Yes, and even those inflated numbers are in decline. Those who attempted to demonize this evidence in the past are realizing that if the numbers are indeed off, they are evidence of LESS players than the infirmation shows, not more, as they wish it to be, so now some are backpedaling and attempting to act like alt accounts have minimal impact.

A 10% decrease of inflated numbers is probably also a 10% decrease of the actual numbers, by the way :).

[Vint]

Why bother trying to convince people of anything?

We all know I'm right and all you warm-blooded simians should bow before me.

I have to agree. I could care less what some graph, a survey people take, or any other “insider info” someone has. If LFM’s and pugs are not getting filled it doesn’t matter if there is one hundred or one billion people playing.

I don’t know the status of the servers and it really does not matter. When you see less and less LFM’s then you will have a better understanding of what is going on.

Off topic: I have a second account that I log into and leave parked in the market or harbor. Every once in a while I will switch over to the pike account just to see if there are puggers to swindle. Well worth the effort to do this as you can get ottos boxes or tp codes cheap.

[AtomicMew]

According to DDO Oracle, I am correct. There are 6 servers getting between 10-14k people logging in each day. The average number seen there is right at 12k. That in and of itself is 72k, on average. Ghallanda sometimes dips down to around the 18k range, and spikes up to 25k, but usually sits around 22k a day. Now we're at 94k. Then there is wayfinder...poor wayfinder. Dips down to close to a thousand (has in the past, not in the picture I am providing) and it's peak is just over 4k. Averages around 3k. So now, we're at 97,000 players. Are some of these relogs, people switching toons or multiple accounts? Yes, they sure are. What is the amount? Impossible to say. From what I have seen from other players, if I were doing a survey based off of what I have been told, I would assume around 2-4k of these can be taken off (sorry, Wayfinder...) from that. We still have over 90k players IN THE WINTER, during months that we are known to have a lower playerbase.

Just saying, I know how to read a **** graph, and most people know my source as they use it, too.

http://ddoracle.com/images/serverLoadMonthly.big.png

The graph doesn't even go up to 25k, much less spike up to 25k. If you average crest to trough, your numbers are severely off. The average of the rest of the servers are far from 12k. You need to read that graph honestly, rather than trying to make out the most optimistic numbers you think you can get away with.

The moral of the story: don't lie, especially with numbers, unless you are smarter than everyone else in the room.

[Chai]

Please give me an estimate then. What percentage of the population do you think logs onto multiple accounts on daily basis?

Multiple accounts + multiple servers is probably closer to 20% than 10%. I know quite a few people in the PD community, which is multiple established guilds on multiple servers already, who have their non PD toons on a different server. When new servers were brought up, and people migrated to those, did they never log onto their toons on the old server again? There was a wonderful burst of new accounts created around the time of dupe-a-palooza. Many of the folks who were on enforced vacation spent that vacation playing DDO. Then theres mules, multibox players, guild banks.

[Teh_Troll]

Multiple accounts + multiple servers is probably closer to 20% than 10%.

Other than mule accounts and sock-puppets for forum access . . . no way.

[Chai]

Other than mule accounts and sock-puppets for forum access . . . no way.

Way.

Im not saying every single one of those logs on every day. Im saying that theres more alt accounts than most people realize in an MMO that has been f2p for ~going on 5 years now. Im also counting single accounts that log onto multiple servers. - basically lumping everything that inflates the numbers into one category.

[Teh_Troll]

Way.

Im not saying every single one of those logs on every day. Im saying that theres more alt accounts than most people realize in an MMO that has been f2p for ~going on 5 years now. Im also counting single accounts that log onto multiple servers. - basically lumping everything that inflates the numbers into one category.

All I know is Ghallanda at prime-time has about 900ish people signed it. That's something you can check easily in the who list.

Which is interesting . . . most of them are "new." Several hundred un-guilded and many in guilds I've never heard of while the veteran guilds are decimated.

[bartharok]

Ive seen some of the blowouts youve had with other forumites as well, so you having this idea that you are somehow educating me on posting habbits is hilarious. This is why Im asking you to refrain from making personal comments at all. If you can do so we can discuss issues, but if not, well...its not making me look bad when Im continuing to discuss the topic and youre attempting to turn it into a personal rant about my posting habbits.

This personal attack proves that i win.

[Postumus]

Multiple accounts + multiple servers is probably closer to 20% than 10%.


Not even close. I'd ask you for actual facts to back up your claim, but we all know how that one plays out.

[Postumus]

The graph doesn't even go up to 25k, much less spike up to 25k. If you average crest to trough, your numbers are severely off. The average of the rest of the servers are far from 12k. You need to read that graph honestly, rather than trying to make out the most optimistic numbers you think you can get away with.

The moral of the story: don't lie, especially with numbers, unless you are smarter than everyone else in the room.


Oracle's got other graphs posted. IIRC the average of the latest graph I saw was about 8k per server except Ghallanda (which is way, way outperforming the other servers in log in traffic) and Wayfinder (which is way, way underperforming so it about cancels out).

8k *8 = 64k.

I wouldn't doubt the number of 'active' accounts is closer to 100k, since some folks take breaks or don't play for weeks at a time yet still purchase and play new content when it comes out, or they retain their VIP memberships.


Ultimately for players it's number of players at any given time, for Turbine it's number of dollars spent per year/quarter. You've got some Turbine employees talking about what a great year it was for DDO last year, so obviously there is a perception gap between players who see DDO death throes and the company that actually runs it and makes money from it.

[hit_fido]

If he is trying to say people dont use multiple accounts or play on multiple serves, yes, citation needed.


The amount of players that does this is at most 10%


A few years ago you may have been right about this. Nowdays, Id challenge that claim.


If you're trying to say more than 10% do, then you need to provide a citation as well.


I didnt make the claim. He did.

Ok...


Multiple accounts + multiple servers is probably closer to 20% than 10%.

Well in that case...


Citation needed.



One more thing:


You don't believe people have alt-itis in a game that has very little to do in endgame?

Today it's all about arguing how many more people are logging in alts and playing on different servers and how many mule accounts they need to support all of that, but a couple months back it was all about agreeing with a poster asking "Are alts dead?" and commiserating with other players about how many more people were playing fewer alts and had fewer serious toons, ahem, "for a while now":


Ive been seeing this mentality for a while now. I know a few folks on Sarlona who have one serious toon and thats it. People are beginning to wise up to the justification of paying to circumvent grind as well. If they had 15 alts back in the day, they are down to 2-3 serious capped toons, because having to grind it all out on every toon is too much time, and having to pay to circumvent that grind for all toons is too much disposible income spent in one spot.

We can't even get a consistent position in the space of 2-3 months. Wherever the wind blows, apparently.



BTW,


I dont understand your argument here chai.

Are you trying to say its more convenient for a player to have all of their toons on seperate accounts for item trading?

I saw what you did there.

[NaturalHazard]

All I know is Ghallanda at prime-time has about 900ish people signed it. That's something you can check easily in the who list.

Which is interesting . . . most of them are "new." Several hundred un-guilded and many in guilds I've never heard of while the veteran guilds are decimated.

the vets all got tired of teh troll?

[Gremmlynn]

See im inclined to feel that the lag is mostly on the player side. I mean I used to lag. And I mean lag. I dreaded zoning into a **** explorer area. My rig wasn't the greatest but it was ok. Then I rebuilt after 8 years or so, slapped 8 gigs of 1600 ram in there, got a SSD (I'm, telling you their is no greater upgrade for mmo gaming) a decent graphics card and processor and I have yet to ever crash in this game. I don't even lag. The only way I would jutter slightly forward is if the server itself shook the heavens.

Yes the game leaks memory like a ruptured oil tanker. Which is why I recommended 8 gigs. But with upgrading all my bits and peices and not lagging I can't willfully say its server end. Now to question why you would need so much ram and a sdd, maybe an up to top cpu and gpu (dedicated!! not those stupid integrated bs things they try to hype) is another question altogether on this old of a game.

But as throwing hardware at er I say alot of times client end. Wheather its the hardware or you provider just is a lil sonofa (edited for the feint of heart)To me, whether it is due to their servers lagging or their game not running well on average machines, it's still Turbine's problem. It seems to me that most people are more interested in how well games play on their machines than how well they can play on something else.

[Gremmlynn]

Nope, try the same amount, and im getting the item now rather than waiting for it. I can also have the mule logged on waiting. Convenience advantage, person with a f2p mule account. That makes no sense, the share bank is always logged on also and what difference does it make if the character has the item now or the next time you actually want to play it. It has no value until then anyway.

About the only real arguments you could have are that it increases your total storage and that it doesn't cause share bank to fill up. These are only issues if you save or pass around a lot of unbound items.

Myself, I have to many mules (I'm a bit of a hoarder) and have never even attempted to log 2 accounts at the same time as I only have one marginal computer and frankly would rather just mail stuff than alt-tab to trade (something I've done in other games that didn't have a mail option and I found rather annoying to do).

All you are really saying is that your way is the best way because it's the way you like best.

[Gremmlynn]

There is actually only one item that causes me trouble, and thatsthe greater nimble trinket. I have only one, and 10 toons that could use it. The solution is that i have it on one toon at a time, and live without it the rest of the time. Doesnt give me any trouble, though, since i can bypass the need easy enough.Even this could easily be worked around by simply putting it in share bank before logging out of whichever character you are using it on at the time.

[Gremmlynn]

Chai is the least effective communicator I've ever known... And I've known autistic kids who can't even speak. But Chai's style of arguing ensures that no one will change their opinion to his, and quite a few people reading his threads will start believing the opposite of his opinion just because it's coming from him.My favorite is when he argues with those who agree with him simply because they have the audacity to give any opinion at all.

[Chai]

Chai is the least effective communicator I've ever known... And I've known autistic kids who can't even speak. But Chai's style of arguing ensures that no one will change their opinion to his, and quite a few people reading his threads will start believing the opposite of his opinion just because it's coming from him.

Youve ever known? You dont know me. And youre incorrect, the number of folks who troll me because they see the name Chai next to the post is getting smaller, not larger. Note also that the number of folks who tend to agree with me on two major issues is growing, not shrinking. Doesnt sound like poor communication to me. Its more like poor reaction to my communication, due to wanting to disagree and having no logic to do so, so entire blocks of my text get quoted, with insult laden replies that dont even address the quoted text. The character/cred assassination failed, time to move on. Most have but theres still a few who will not, even to the point where their actions land them in cant-post-land, so they drum up a few sock puppet accounts to continue where their old account left off, to the same effect.

[Gremmlynn]

Why wouldnt they. Why wouldnt they also be logging onto their leveling toons on those accounts as stated in my previous posts?Because anything that can be traded can also be mailed and gathered up all at one convenient time every couple weeks or on those rare occasions when they need something from a mule (most simply use sharebank for anything that is immediately or predictably useful I would think). As to the second part, I would think most make characters in order to actually play them in that content as that's about all the game offers.

I think you have a rather poor idea of how seriously most players take the game.

[Chai]

That makes no sense, the share bank is always logged on also and what difference does it make if the character has the item now or the next time you actually want to play it. It has no value until then anyway.

About the only real arguments you could have are that it increases your total storage and that it doesn't cause share bank to fill up. These are only issues if you save or pass around a lot of unbound items.

Myself, I have to many mules (I'm a bit of a hoarder) and have never even attempted to log 2 accounts at the same time as I only have one marginal computer and frankly would rather just mail stuff than alt-tab to trade (something I've done in other games that didn't have a mail option and I found rather annoying to do).

Im adding convenience, at no cost, and creating a situation that will never be disadvantageous compared to using shared bank on same account. Advantage, monetarily, time wise, and I dont invoke the memory leak anywhere near as much when I transfer.


All you are really saying is that your way is the best way because it's the way you like best.

Nope, im saying the way I outlined is the most convenient, in both cost, and time, regardless of which myself, or anyone else likes best.

[Chai]

Because anything that can be traded can also be mailed and gathered up all at one convenient time every couple weeks or on those rare occasions when they need something from a mule (most simply use sharebank for anything that is immediately or predictably useful I would think). As to the second part, I would think most make characters in order to actually play them in that content as that's about all the game offers.

I think you have a rather poor idea of how seriously most players take the game.

If you are arguing that players take it less seriously then you are arguing in my favor. I outlined a free solution that is more convenient and costs less than the paid solution of using the shared bank.

[Chai]

Not even close. I'd ask you for actual facts to back up your claim, but we all know how that one plays out.

As I asked you, when you made your claim. Did you provide those yet?

[Chai]

Today it's all about arguing how many more people are logging in alts and playing on different servers and how many mule accounts they need to support all of that, but a couple months back it was all about agreeing with a poster asking "Are alts dead?" and commiserating with other players about how many more people were playing fewer alts and had fewer serious toons, ahem, "for a while now":

We can't even get a consistent position in the space of 2-3 months. Wherever the wind blows, apparently..

Restricting play to a few toons for the eTR system =/= restricting play of all toons save for those being used in the eTR system. Nice try though. 6/10.

People are reducing the number of toons they are putting through Turbines monetization systems, because they dont want to get nickel and dimed on all of their alts just to run all of them on the same hamster wheel. This does not equate to never logging in any alts at all. If I want to raid I will log in whatever alt I have flagged for that raid out of my stable, even if I am only running two of them through the eTR system.

In short, not running all alts through the eTR system =/= never logging in alts.

[moomooprincess]

Somewhere on Turbine there is a film clip with them interviewing the Neverwinter Creators and Turbine. In that video clip, shot in 2013, Turbine CLAIMED to have 5,000,000 Accounts or Characters, something like that.

Personally, I think there are 15,000 to 20,000 active players per server, with Wayfinder having around 5,000(this guess could be high).

I love how the OP "competes" with other players for something. I wonder why the OP does not compete with Bill Gates or Warren Buffet for wealth?

Thrudh and Chai you two ALWAYS hijack threads because your egos are way too fragile. Both of you should adult up. Why don't you two just have the Thrudh and Chai forum or thread and just hang out in there?

[Gremmlynn]

If you are arguing that players take it less seriously then you are arguing in my favor. I outlined a free solution that is more convenient and costs less than the paid solution of using the shared bank.Actually, in my experience playing in a mid sized (100ish active account) casual guild, most find buying share bank, or more share bank, much more convienent than starting new accounts and even figuring out how to multi-box. Most also have to log in twice to even play and find that frustrating enough without doing it on more than one account. As to having to log in multiple characters? Why when the items they plan to share are typically stored in share bank and items they plan to trade are stored there until they play the character they plan to trade it to.

Me, I have a few mules and am an admitted hoarder. Even so, I don't find stuff I find worthy of keeping on a regular enough basis to have mule standing by to take them. Nor do I find I have a need for what I do hoard anywhere near as often that I find things I think I might find useful at some time. Those items I do find that are of immediate use end up in the share bank and the mules are mostly full of odds and ends, potentially useful crafting blanks, tomes and augments.

[hit_fido]

In short, not running all alts through the eTR system =/= never logging in alts.

Not on topic. The inconsistency in question, again:

2-3 months back when you needed to support the idea that playing alts was in decline in order to jump on that doom meme ("alts are dead"):

"If they had 15 alts back in the day, they are down to 2-3 serious capped toons"

Today when you needed to support the idea that playing alts, even across multiple servers, is thriving and on the rise in order to jump on this doom meme ("login numbers are inflated due to alts"):

"You don't believe people have alt-itis in a game that has very little to do in endgame?"

I mean, you're not going to convince me alt playing is up or down without providing any data or a reasonable argument (I'm not taking either position at this point because no data or reasonable arguments on frequency of playing alts has been brought forth). And I'm not going to convince you that your stated positions exhibit a pattern of inconsistency which is why many of us criticize your positions and posts, which you in turn play off as "demonization". But for the benefit of the home audience, we'll continue to point this out so that they take such statements as the above with a healthy grain of salt.

[Chai]

It's like THREE posts up...



40 posts out of 137 in this thread are from Chai, 4 are from me, btw.

Quantity based argumentation? rofl. And you cant quote it because I never said it. Review post + post history in thread, then quote, then reply in that order. Do it out of order and make absurd claims that I said something I never said, and ima pull your card on it each time.

[Orratti]

Chai I've seen you argue with someone who is agreeing with you because they used one word in their statement in a way that you could find fault with.

And no I'm not going to show you a quote of you doing so.

And yes it's because I don't have one.

And yes I know that if I can't provide one you will say it's because you have never done so and I'm simply trolling you and making a personal attack.

But really I love ya man, don't ever quit posting. Somewhere I imagine someone at Turbine who is paid to do nothing more than wonder "Oh god, what is Chai going to say about this."

You may be on the edge of sanity but so very often you say exactly what needs to be said.

[Chai]

Not on topic. The inconsistency in question, again:

2-3 months back when you needed to support the idea that playing alts was in decline in order to jump on that doom meme ("alts are dead"):

"If they had 15 alts back in the day, they are down to 2-3 serious capped toons"

Today when you needed to support the idea that playing alts, even across multiple servers, is thriving and on the rise in order to jump on this doom meme ("login numbers are inflated due to alts"):

"You don't believe people have alt-itis in a game that has very little to do in endgame?"

I mean, you're not going to convince me alt playing is up or down without providing any data or a reasonable argument (I'm not taking either position at this point because no data or reasonable arguments on frequency of playing alts has been brought forth). And I'm not going to convince you that your stated positions exhibit a pattern of inconsistency which is why many of us criticize your positions and posts, which you in turn play off as "demonization". But for the benefit of the home audience, we'll continue to point this out so that they take such statements as the above with a healthy grain of salt.

Nope, I wasn't jumping on some doom meme, I was making a point about why people are putting less alts through Turbines new system. Anyone who wants to can read that thread objectively, rather than the snippets you are quoting.

And if you think you can challenge a claim without taking a position yourself, that's not how debate works. You want to discuss the topic, pony up your stance on the issue.

[Thrudh]

The real problem is this whole thread is arguing about something that none of us have any facts about (how many people have double accounts or log in multiple times a day), and a good way to pass loot, and Chai has stated definitely and argued with everyone in the thread about both subjects.

Pick your battles, Chai... pick your battles... State "I could be wrong, but here's my guess"... State "Here's how I pass loot... it's a pretty good way and here's why, but your way sounds good too"

Not... "I'm right, and you're all wrong"

[hit_fido]

And if you think you can challenge a claim without taking a position yourself, that's not how debate works. You want to discuss the topic, pony up your stance on the issue.

I'm not challenging a claim. I'm pointing out that in the space of 2-3 months you stated both that alt playing is in decline and that alt playing is on the rise.

[Chai]

The real problem is this whole thread is arguing about something that none of us have any facts about (how many people have double accounts or log in multiple times a day), and a good way to pass loot, and Chai has stated definitely and argued with everyone in the thread about both subjects.

No, I have not. You really need to review the posting history of those you make personal attacks against. What I have done is stated my method is more convenient, and also stated why. Now back up your claims with some quotes please.


Pick your battles, Chai... pick your battles... State "I could be wrong, but here's my guess"... State "Here's how I pass loot... it's a pretty good way and here's why, but your way sounds good too"

If you actually reviewed my post history instead of posting your bias sans reading what is posted, you would realize ive done this twice now in the past few weeks.


Not... "I'm right, and you're all wrong"

Quote it, or refrain from making claims that I said it.

[Chai]

I'm not challenging a claim. I'm pointing out that in the space of 2-3 months you stated both that alt playing is in decline and that alt playing is on the rise.

Incorrect. Ive stated that people are minimizing the number of alts they put through Turbines new hamster wheel. Objective reading is awesome. Try it.

[hit_fido]

Incorrect. Ive stated that people are minimizing the number of alts they put through Turbines new hamster wheel. Objective reading is awesome. Try it.

You stated that "If they had 15 alts back in the day, they are down to 2-3 serious capped toons". People are free to interpret that objectively as something other than "they are playing alts less". I don't.

So the home audience can better understand how hard you're wriggling around this new inconsistency, some other quotes from the same thread, for context:


I shelved all my alts long ago because i didn't have the time to gear them all up to my satisfaction. Once my main earned completionist, i really had no use for alts.


I originally was an alt-o-holic. But when I TR-ed my first two toons, I found that I literally abandoned all of the other toons I had to work on just the TRs.


This thread really speaks to me. Prior to the recent changes, i had 5 mains and 4 others. The others have stopped completely and I won't be touching them again. I deleted one, the rest are bank toons now.


The number of characters I play has dropped a little with each new thing since the first expansion pack.


Yep. Since MOTU release I've shelved 3 of my alts and put a back burner on 2 characters I eventually want to create just to focus on 1 toon for PLs.

Your opening line following the sentiment expressed by those players? "Ive been seeing this mentality for a while now."

But now you'd like everyone to objectively read your response in that thread as "people are playing alts more than before but they just aren't grinding anything with their alts".

I'll leave the last word to you! I predict "Nope", "Incorrect", or "Potato". Surprise me with some originality.

[Postumus]

As I asked you, when you made your claim. Did you provide those yet?

As you well know I have provided this data and my sources numerous times on this forum. The forum has a search function, feel free to use it. But do not expect me to keep spoon feeding you information I have already posted and which you have already read. That is just lazy argumentation.

[Postumus]

Im adding convenience, at no cost, and creating a situation that will never be disadvantageous compared to using shared bank on same account. Advantage, monetarily, time wise, and I dont invoke the memory leak anywhere near as much when I transfer.



Nope, im saying the way I outlined is the most convenient, in both cost, and time, regardless of which myself, or anyone else likes best.

rrofl. That is why shared bank space is one of the most purchased store items by VIPs? That is why VIPs keep requesting MORE shared bank space? Because your method is so convenient?
The DDO store begs to differ.

[Orratti]

New players are getting through the game too quickly. This was obviously done to promote the high level expansions. Raid loot was gimped and auction house gear got better.

Obviously the game is getting old and we are losing players to other games. I ask my friends why they don't play this and the fundamental problems are the reasons. They say the lag and other game issues are not worth it. Other games have better graphics and run smoother. This is a shame because they would enjoy the character creation and combat that DDO excels at if these other issues were fixed. Well they are lost to this now and will probably not come back unless something revolutionary is done to fix the game and make it run smoother.

I like some of the loot changes and dislike others. My divine power items ML got raised, but all this other powerful loot like accuracy and deadly and seeker and speed have low Min Lvl. Now I like that the loot is there. It is just gimping raid loot hurting the TR community that I am not a part of.

I like the auction house gear. I like Raid Timers, so I can convert my TP to Plat in the game. I P2W I guess, but really I pay to keep up with the multi TRs and kids on here with too much time on their hands because I have a job and real life money is less time consuming to get and use than virtual time. Mana pots from the DDO store. Sure just in case I screw up I can cast out of it cause I am casual and just don't know the quests as well. My builds are good, but my gear is not the best. But I have a +5 Supreme Tome, lol. So I read the forums and use all my resources in game and outside the game to be umber.

I understand why Turbine did what it did to make money. That keeps the came going. Unless the fundamental changes to the game are made it will continue to be are mid lvl MMO, and perhaps it is too late to be anything better. We are more likely to see servers merge.

Ah well maybe a DDO2 can change that. Just let me move over my characters to it or I will be ****ed. lol. Loyalty should be awarded.

But hey! The game is 8 years old you know.... not a bad run so far.



I would like the devs to keep us informed of the community numbers??

And what changes are coming? How do I find that out?



How do you thing the game needs to change for the better?

You can't fix this game. If you like it for what it is then it doesn't need fixing. If you have any issue with any part of the game, the way it is managed, or how it has changed over time can you see any way that it can be repaired? I can't. It is all interconnected.

"I pay to keep up with the multi TRs and kids on here with too much time on their hands" How are you to pull new players into that kind of environment unless they are hardcore gamers with too much time on their hands that can learn and catch up to the majority of established players? Forget bugs and the age of the game, lets just go with the environment you are going to meet starting this game for the 1st time today. The people around you aren't just going to be better geared in comparison, they are going to be several TRs and years of experience ahead of you. That won't necessarily cause a new player to quit but it will be strongly felt. Fortunately the devs at least bridged the gear gap by making random loot gen powerful enough to keep the new player competitive with the player that has been farming for the past 8 years. Guess what, now we have another problem. Now loot that was sought after is invalidated.

What keeps people playing long term- TRs and loot grinding works against bringing in new players and what gains new players- quick powerful loot and fast easy leveling drives away long term player.

This is really just a simplified argument for my point and to be honest isn't even right so for anyone that would choose to argue that I'm wrong in my statement it won't be difficult. The point is that the game has 8 years of history and change. There are so many factors involved in how it has evolved to the state that it is in that fixing anything about its current state really isn't possible. It has time working against it at this point.

If there is a DDO2 however I would hope you couldn't transfer characters from this game to that one. Why start a new game bringing in old problems. I would be looking forward to playing it as long as this wasn't even considered.

[Waaye]

If you have to log in 10+ times a day, you need a serious PC/Internet upgrade.

My game always fails on the first log in of the day so I just keep the machine running and log in and out as things come up. Logging in ten times a day is not unusual but it is always at least twice to check my mail and roll the dice.

[bartharok]

Even this could easily be worked around by simply putting it in share bank before logging out of whichever character you are using it on at the time.

Yup, i know. Just isnt worth the bother. I would most likely forget to put it back in at some point, or take it out, or equip it and put it on a quickbar. I think ill just make a couple more next time the cove comes around.

[Chai]

As you well know I have provided this data and my sources numerous times on this forum. The forum has a search function, feel free to use it. But do not expect me to keep spoon feeding you information I have already posted and which you have already read. That is just lazy argumentation.

No you haven't, you've stated that we cant possibly know because no one but Turbine has the numbers, when challenged. Then demanded evidence from those you disagree with and when that gets brought, attempt to demonize or discredit it when all indicators point to not supporting your claim. When people were breaking down Oracle data you were all up in there attempting to shout them down claiming they could not possibly draw legit conclusions from that.

[Chai]

rrofl. That is why shared bank space is one of the most purchased store items by VIPs? That is why VIPs keep requesting MORE shared bank space? Because your method is so convenient?
The DDO store begs to differ.

Ive already outlined why my method is more convenient. The only person who attempted to challenge that said they don't care about convenience they can just live without the item until they retrieve it. Paying for storage is nothing new in MMOs and it doesn't really prove your point.

[bartharok]

...Then demanded evidence from those you disagree with and when that gets brought, attempt to demonize or discredit it when all indicators point to not supporting your claim.

This goes for you, and pretty much everybody else on the forums as welll, you know.

[Chai]

You stated that "If they had 15 alts back in the day, they are down to 2-3 serious capped toons". People are free to interpret that objectively as something other than "they are playing alts less". I don't.

No interpretation necessary, its right there in the post, when you read the entire thing. Come on now you can do it, its only a few lines. Read the whole thing and you can clearly see me stating that they don't want to be nickel and dimed on every alt. Breaking it down sentence by sentence takes it out of context. Nice try. Actually no, 1/10.


Your opening line following the sentiment expressed by those players? "Ive been seeing this mentality for a while now."

Same as above. Read the entire thing, comprehend it and understand the context it was said in.

[sha123]

With raiders box, CITW is just a waste of time.
FOT, shroud, reavers fate, tempest spine are easily soloable.
Von5/6, just need a few to pull levers.

Yup, the state of raids is a joke. Running easy **** raids with weaklings is just boring.

[Beethoven]

I also find it ironic that folks who attempted to demonize the evidence provided by DDO Oracle over the years are now attempting to extrapolate favorable colclusions from that same data themselves.

They did not demonize it, they disagreed with the interpretation of the data. They interpreted the data favorably then and they still interpret it the same. I am curious though, how is the use of derogatory terms and obfuscation tactics to directly attack their credibility anything but a personal attack? I'd be so inclined I could point out thinly veiled attacks in almost every single one of your 15K posts. You do not have a moral upper ground here, you are as much an offender (if not worse) than everybody else you accuse.


The graph doesn't even go up to 25k, much less spike up to 25k. If you average crest to trough, your numbers are severely off. The average of the rest of the servers are far from 12k. You need to read that graph honestly, rather than trying to make out the most optimistic numbers you think you can get away with.

He is probably talking about current numbers, which the graph shows as:
Two servers at 10K, one at 11K, one at 12K and two around 13 with two abnormalities, one at 4K and one at 23K. Discounting these abnormalities the average would be 11.5K, hardly "way off" from his 12K.
I include Ghallanda and Wayfinder and the average comes back as exactly 12K.

So, I don't know, but 12k average sounds pretty accurate and honest to me. What number are you coming up with?


But the number of folks who do is significant. The reason why people are attempting to refute this, in most cases, is because they realize that this points to less players logging in, which is something they do not wish to believe.

Nobody said these people do not exist.

What do you think the number is of people who have careers too demanding that they lack time (and/or energy) to log into a game every single night?
How large do you think the number is of people who have a social/family life that keeps them from logging in every day?
How many players do you think there are who play on more than one online game and/or play console games and simply do not have the time to play every single one every day of their life?
What do you think the number is of people who are temporary without (or with limited) internet access due to technical issues, power outs, hand of god, personal issues, business trips and/or family vacations.

You really think that all the above combined is a less significant number than players who log into multiple accounts every day on one and the same game you seriously deluding yourself.


Youve ever known? You dont know me. And youre incorrect, the number of folks who troll me because they see the name Chai next to the post is getting smaller, not larger.

You are assuming they came to agree with you, not simply got tired of having the same conversation over and over again. I mean, take this thread for instance, there are more people suggesting to put you on ignore than there are actually agreeing with you.


That is the mindset of the demographic group the current model of monetization caters to.

That is actually the mindset of the majority of today's (potential) costumers according to most market research.

It used to be people were loyal to one to two online games and would spend an insane amount of time playing nothing else. It also used to be that people were loyal to one or two television channels.

Things changed. Today people no longer content themselves with one or two television channels but switch between dozens to watch whatever interests them most or rent/stream a movie. Today players (not only gamers) also no longer have two online titles they play, but four to six and switch between them based on their mood and outside factors (such as which had the most recent/more successful update).

Monetized games where players can simply spend a couple bucks to catch up faster after taking a break do remarkably well in that landscape. Subscription based games which rely solely on time played (and thus frequently require players invest more time to catch up) don't.

Now, I could be wrong and you could be right, but there is a lot of people disagreeing with you, including one Joost van Dreunen. You claim to to not argue personal bias but facts, but I have yet to see facts that substantiate your claims. Him, as CEO of SuperData, he has his reputation and career at stake.

SuperData isn't just any company either, it is the leader in digital games market intelligence and their research relied upon by companies like Blizzard, Electronic Arts, Sega, Perfect World and many others.

You have any doubts about the result of these types of research, following should proof an interesting read to you:
http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/wow-microtransactions/ is a good summary of Blizzard's study.
http://www.globalcollect.com/online-payments/news/2013-Press-Releases/Free-to-Play-US-Market-Revenue-Hits-15bn-As-Developers-Face-Critical-Monetization-Decisions/ talks about SuperData's findings.

[danotmano1998]

Why don't you two just have the Thrudh and Chai forum or thread and just hang out in there?

I think they would be far better suited to being on a talk show...

But you can't distill Chai's debaters down to just one. He would have to host it and have ongoing multiple guests.

Ooooh... Maybe an ongoing podcast?
Who's kickstarting that project?

[Postumus]

I think they would be far better suited to being on a talk show...

But you can't distill Chai's debaters down to just one. He would have to host it and have ongoing multiple guests.




Please make this happen!

List of guests I'd like to see:

Shade
Madmatt
GermanusMaximus
Uska
Thrudh
Karavek



Oooooohhh so many...

[Postumus]

My game always fails on the first log in of the day so I just keep the machine running and log in and out as things come up. Logging in ten times a day is not unusual but it is always at least twice to check my mail and roll the dice.


I feel for you. Personally I could never play this (or any) game if I had these issues.

[goodspeed]

As above, ever since upgrading my pc. 2 years ago I have also to nose issue with the game - unless downloading something or the wireless router has been kicked out of place :)

As to those complaining the game is gimp, please let me know what will be better to play. I had hoped NW would cure my ddo addiction but it failed. Wow is just the same.

I am also always curious/ amused why those who think the game is so dud bother reading and posting on the forum.

I as well. Ive looked but nothing seems to have the same interesting combat system as this game. It's all just these single solo player mmo's where you hit your 2 macro's. I did and am however enjoyed ffxi a realm reborn. Did quite a bit of changes so I don't actually mind paying per month. But f2p wise naw.

[harry-pancreas]

New players are getting through the game too quickly. This was obviously done to promote the high level expansions. Raid loot was gimped and auction house gear got better.


i have run recently with a lvl 18 or so bladeforged centered **** who didn't know what's VoN or the eSoS. Now, no problem at all with newbs, but letting them start at level 15 was a BAD idea.


/BAD turbine :/

[Angelic-council]

I think generating new content, not just at end game but in other areas as well, would be the best thing for this game. I also believe that continuing to do bug fixes will go a long way. And, the biggest change of all, outside of a greensteel-like system, please please PLEASE don't put in any more new systems. Finish up the ones we have, don't add anymore.

Yeah, but not every MMO is that bad. Bugs are inevatble. However, I don't know why it takes 2 or more years for turbine to fix simplest bugs in game. If it's well known bug, I think other MMO companies will do their best to fix that as soon as possible, probably in next patch. DDO, unlike other mmos has pretty bad taste around that area. Well.. This surely will continue. New content is always welcome of course!.. But, many players unhappy with current situation. Lets see what devs have to say to this.

[Uska]

DDO2 will be based on dnd next or 4E and will be horrible if it happens at all. There is no other MMO there or in development that is even mildly interesting.

[Uska]

Yeah, this statement needs addressing big time. DDO probably has millions of accounts, they have nowhere near this many active players. DDO had 90k players at its original launch, which kept about ~16 servers brimming with players. It cut those in half at one point, and then added two for the relaunch.

We're probably in the 15k to 20k semi-active players right now. Make no mistake, this game is a complete dud.

If its a dud why are you here dude

[Uska]

The original EQ still has more folks than DDO does playing it, and predates DDO by 7 years.

and I thought it was a horrible boring game when it was new.

[Uska]

All I have to say is "http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en 4-4-14" New link http://youtu.be/hfpYnehJ5TE

Well I hated the single player game and have seen nothing that convinces me that the MMO will be better in fact likely to be worse.

[Uska]

doesn't matter how old this game is. only variable that matters is the number of other MMO's that compete with this game's PnP inspiration and does combat + build diversity as well.

..and that number would be ZERO currently. Number of MMO projects on the horizon, poised to replace DDO in these regards? that would ALSO be ZERO. I've searched far and wide. Nuthin. This is it.

Exactly I have done the same been here 8 years and have tried several games over the years and watched for something new its not there. This is all there is

[Uska]

You don't think pathfinder will compete with DDO?

EQ next has a chance as well.

Many of the folks that were here for the D&D aspect are gone. A lot of what is left now are the FPS folks.

Pathfinder will be worse than ESO and I hated both EQ's so I see zero chance for that one at least for me.

[Uska]

WB already handed the most recent license to PW/Cryptic, and made them base the game on 4e.

Well actually NWO isn't really based on 4E it uses a modified champions online system(its not based on its pnp ancestor either) its really just 4E by flavor. But I agree if there is a DDO2 there wont be any character transfers since DDO2 would be based most likely on DnD next

[Uska]

Im trying to educate him about the effects of his style of conversing. I know ill probably fail, but i have hope.

He rubs me wrong occasionally but so do a lot of people and I am sure I do the same. But he does say something good now and then so I haven't added him or a couple of others to my rather expansive ignore list. When someone types its hard to really get a read on their tone so you have to read between the lines I am sure in person he would come off completely different.

[Angelic-council]

Logins? I personally log in 4-5 times a day, sometimes because the game fails to load the first time and I have to relogin. You can't make any correlation between login numbers and active account numbers. If you use my math, and assume everyone logs in 5 times a day, then you're 100K logins actually equals about 20K players.

When you login first time, do you get Red ping? If so, it has to be connection error... This could happen when your PC/Laptop can't recieve enought data information from the game client and you have to close the window one time after it's fully loaded. Some people keep machine running all the time because they don't want to repeat login twice (long process). But, it's not a very idea. It might break your computer device. There is no real software that can fix it, because in most cases it's not a program, but device itself that needs to be repaired. Just wanted to let you know there :p I had same issue long ago lol I had to buy new notebook ^_^

[Angelic-council]

DDO2 will be based on dnd next or 4E and will be horrible if it happens at all. There is no other MMO there or in development that is even mildly interesting.

I don't think there will be DDO2, it can't possible be. You can say DDO is heroic lv1 - 20 and DDO2 is epic lv20 - 28(30). :p

[Fallout_Zero]

I don't think there will be DDO2, it can't possible be. You can say DDO is heroic lv1 - 20 and DDO2 is epic lv20 - 28(30). :p

Forgotten Realms instead of Ebberon. Instead if using an IP people knew about, you start with a lesser known one. Business 101 fail.

[Angelic-council]

Forgotten Realms instead of Ebberon. Instead if using an IP people knew about, you start with a lesser known one. Business 101 fail.

Zero, would it be cool if you tell me what are you trying to say in other words? lol

[Cordovan]

Due to fighting and personal attacks, this thread is now closed.