It's not all on the Devs, not just the game; the players need to make some changes.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

It used to be that we needed more well-balanced parties. That everyone had a necessary part to play, if not a role. That's not the case any longer. And yet, this is still supposed to be an MMO. (Y'all do recall that MMO stands for massively multiplayer online, right?)

How an MMO comes to the point where it's dominated by solo-artists, and people who don't actually need their parties, I have no clue. Perhaps the quest for self-sufficiency has stunted our ability to play together. All I know, is that a lot of people in these forums come off as fairly anti-social.



I said it elsewhere recently: PUGging is hard.

There are no longer the numbers/availability of LFMs that there used to be. You can no longer play one character faithfully and surf the LFMs. Now you need to look at the LFMs and change to a different character to fit the LFM trends of the day, or moment.

Our population is less than it was. It's a fact. The only people who may be oblivious to how far it has gone are those that run in static groups, belong to large guilds and play almost exclusively with guildies, and combinations of the above who also use user channels. There is now chatter about server merges, not from Turbine, but enough users seem to think it might or should happen that you notice the chatter in the forums, and on the servers.

Sure, this game seems to be one of the internet's secrets. If it is advertised, I'd be surprised to find out. Most people I don't know from the game, have never heard of the game. And I do know a lot of people, IRL and online.

So new players may not be likely to come. But if they do, what kind of reception will they receive?
Will the LFMs be kind to them? Will the PUGs be fun, or will there be some veteran who wants to leave the newb's stone on the ground because the newb "should know better"?

Will the forums make them feel welcome?
On the forums, newbs may be scared away by the complaints and declared attitudes of some very vocal veterans and elitists.


I admit, there are people out there with high level characters who are still newbs. I recognise them in-game when I share "well-known" tips and tricks and hear/read their surprise and delight ...and I also see them criticised here, on the forums.


I think the real criticisms should be aimed at the community.

Really, let's ask ourselves: How does a newb get to level 25, or even 16, and still remain a newb?
Well, clearly, they haven't learned much. The elitists will want to say "because they're stoopid, and/or refuse to learn." But that's not my experience.

My experience is that a poor selection of LFMs, for parties that are often already IP, being run by people who are too jaded to have fun and just want to grind out the max XP/min they can, and too impatient to be helpful, leaves them untutored/unmentored and feeling like they haven't had fun.

Yes, they could learn from the wiki. But... If the game isn't fun enough, (and the multiplayer aspect is supposed to account for much of that fun). Why would a person spend time pouring over the wiki? What possible motivation should they have to study up on a game where there's no one to play with and the other players are rude?

It may be they should have learned many basic things in a guild. But more often than not, they got spam-invited to a guild not worth the name. Even in a decent-sized guild - what use is a guild of hundreds where you can only ever play with a handful of people? (Solo-artists ruin guilds too, among other things.)

Meanwhile, among what used to be the better guilds had become renown-oriented and newb-unfriendly, and never went back to newb-friendliness when decay was rolled back.

The defence that "people just won't learn" doesn't hold up. Sure, some people are limited, some people plateau. But these are a minority. That particular defence smacks of unwillingness and laziness.
If someone were to swear that the last 10 people they tried to help were incapable, I'd have serious questions. If they told me that 5/10 of the last people were unteachable, I'd still have serious questions. Then again, perhaps some people just aren't smart enough, or lack the skill to teach even something as simple as DDO.
Either way, the majority of newbies can and want to learn. Until we turn them off the game.



We are at fault for much:

The majority of high level newbs, are our fault as a gaming community. We used to help people, I know. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't helped, a lot.
Every loss of a player who likes the game but can't find, or enjoy PUGs, is also our responsibility, at least in part. We can try to be more social. We can choose to add a random instead of popping a hireling we don't really need when our parties aren't full. Instead of starting and ending the evening running solo, put up an LFM and if you find you can't be patient, then drop and go solo, but one or two quests won't kill you.
Every loss of a player because elitists refuse to be polite or patient, despite being in a party with an open LFM, is most definitely our fault. Even more so when the elitist has joined a PUG of which he is not the leader. If you really can't play well with others, then please stop inflicting yourself on us.




The TL;DR point of this overly long post is the following:

The shortest version:
Modify your behaviours, in game and on the forums. You scare away all the new fish. The ones who make the most complaints on the forums are the ones making PUG scene worse.

Slightly more detailed:

Our server populations are in the decline.
We are getting fewer new players, and haven't much reason to expect many.
Before posting on the forums, consider that people new to the game, or considering trying the game will be reading your threads and you are an ambassador for the game.
MMO includes the word multiplayer.
Try to play with others.
Try to play nicely with others.
Try to take newbs under your wings, or you'll eventually (or soon enough) run out of people to play with, or complain about.
Guild renown decay is gone. Encourage newbie-friendliness in your guilds (or start a newb-friendly guild to vet people for your real guild).
Try opening up that last spot in your party to a random instead of popping a hire, at least once and a while. Consider it community service, pay it forward.
Try building one character that isn't self-sufficient. As a challenge to your gaming skills, and your social skills.

[AzB]

Agreed, and well said.

[bsquishwizzy]

I’d have a hard time disagreeing with the OP.

However, asking people to make toons that are not self-sufficient? That’s either the best troll I’ve seen in a while (because you give it so much cover for legitimacy), or an invitation for the mouth-breathing, generalist fanatics to go all mind-screamingly “downtown” on this thread.

In any event…popcorn being popped…

[Flavilandile]

Some changes in some parts of the game is in part guilty of the death of LFM...
People want their no death Bonus run over grouping and taking the risk of loosing the bonus.
People want their Streak to be kept.

Kill the Bravery bonus, go back to the old overlevel bonus.
Kill the no death bonus.

And you'll have a lively LFM world.

[Nestroy]

(...)

While I like your post, it is not only the fault of the players. Since when it is the fault of the players when there is no incentive for a certain behavior in game and on countrary, there are artificial barriers purposedly built that discourage that very appreciated behavior?

With grouping, actually grouping punishes those that group. As long as the game is designed to reward soloists and punish people that group, please do not expect Paladin behavior from ALL of your fellow players. I am no Masochist, and I am quite sure a multitude of players is none either.

[aristarchus1000]

Agree with OP.

I'm not sure if there is any other game that TRs down to level 1 like DDO, which results in brand new players potentially meeting ultra uber vets very early on.

Being new together and exploring quests together are some of my finest memories of DDO, and I am afraid that TRs ruin that experience, and hope that turbine can find away to help new players find each other in pugs.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

However, asking people to make toons that are not self-sufficient? That’s either the best troll I’ve seen in a while (because you give it so much cover for legitimacy), or an invitation for the mouth-breathing, generalist fanatics to go all mind-screamingly “downtown” on this thread.


Well? Why not? Does it cause you a moment of terror to think of not being self-sufficient? Does it cause you to shudder as badly as if I suggested not doing a min/max build?
Yeah, it goes contrary to everything the 'leets say, but there are still a few people who play and have fun that way (though, they probably don't post on the forums), the main point is that it would encourage people to play as groups.

I'm not saying do it with all your toons, just one, as an experiment. There are plenty of people who roll up some strange stuff, sometimes some pretty gimp stuff, just to test theories.
My theory is that a toon that isn't self sufficient may encourage more social play styles.

Self sufficiency has a place. But why ever bother with a party at all if you don't need one?

How does a newbie rogue learn about traps if the Clunk is always running ahead to disarm them?
How does a healer learn to heal when no one needs him until the big crunch, for which he is completely unskilled and inexperienced? Will you then blame him when your Shroud wipes?

Anyway, it's just one small suggestion, among many more important points.




The inflexibility of the fanatics is probably scary as heck to newbies too. Part of the problem is that what they demand everyone do is so counter-intuitive. This is supposed to be based on D&D (how many solo modules were there in D&D?). This is supposed to be the game where builds are sooooo customisable. And then the fanatics call them idiots for having to learn certain truths the hard way, as if most people didn't.

I remember situations where people refused to take advice and the Vets would just laugh and say "you'll see."
Now we berate them, write them off, and complain about them in the forums.

[bsquishwizzy]

While I like your post, it is not only the fault of the players. Since when it is the fault of the players when there is no incentive for a certain behavior in game and on countrary, there are artificial barriers purposedly built that discourage that said appreciated behavior?

With grouping, actually grouping punishes those that group. As long as the game is designed to reward soloists and punish people that group, please do not expect Paladin behavior from ALL of your fellow players. I am no Masochist, and I am quite sure a multitude of players is none either.

Ummm…er…what?

The vast majority of the OP was basically saying, “if you want a healthy game, don’t be a jerk-off.” Please cite the specific things in the game and/or the DDO store to incentivize players to be obnoxious jerks.

I put out a thread not too long ago about whether scaling actually had an effect on the decision to group or not group. The consensus of the replies was that scaling was not THAT big of a deterrent to grouping. In fact, I’ve found that a semi-decent group makes running a quest FAR faster that doing it solo.

All this talk of inviso-running quests on solo? I’ve tried it on toons that can do stealth and invis. I’m not 100% convinced that the people running quests this way are being genuine when they say how fast they can be run.

Practically speaking, there are far more incentives to run quests in a group – the bigger the better.

The only way new players are going to learn to a) appreciate the game, and b) stay for the long haul is if the path to learning the game and enjoying it is made easy for them. Having a bunch of people whine and cry here about “dumb noobs” isn’t going to make any of those things happen. People love this game for the complexity. However, someone who is new is not going to immediately understand that complexity, or how to properly utilize it. There isn’t what I’d call an overabundance of self-help stuff in this game that can match what it provides in features. The rest has to be fostered and developed by the game’s community.

Honestly, the self-affirmation that some people here get because they are good at a video game, to me, is sad. There is next to nothing in real life to which this game can be applied. At least if you are good at woodworking, you can parlay that into a career skill. Chest-thumping over your uber-farmed eSOS is only deserving of pity, in my eye. The game shuts off, all that effort means nothing.

To each their own, I guess.

But, by being an obnoxious vet complaining about noobs isn’t going to retain players. Five years down the line you’ll be the best player in a dying game. If you can’t see the obvious dead-end in that scenario, I really don’t know what to tell you…

[bsquishwizzy]

Well? Why not? Does it cause you a moment of terror to think of not being self-sufficient? Does it cause you to shudder as badly as if I suggested not doing a min/max build?
Yeah, it goes contrary to everything the 'leets say, but there are still a few people who play and have fun that way (though, they probably don't post on the forums), the main point is that it would encourage people to play as groups.


I'm the guy who consistently points out the flaws of the "self-sufficiency" argument.

You're picking the wrong fight with the wring person, there lil' Buckaroo.

[Nestroy]

Ummm…er…what?

The vast majority of the OP was basically saying, “if you want a healthy game, don’t be a jerk-off.” Please cite the specific things in the game and/or the DDO store to incentivize players to be obnoxious jerks.

I put out a thread not too long ago about whether scaling actually had an effect on the decision to group or not group. The consensus of the replies was that scaling was not THAT big of a deterrent to grouping. In fact, I’ve found that a semi-decent group makes running a quest FAR faster that doing it solo.

All this talk of inviso-running quests on solo? I’ve tried it on toons that can do stealth and invis. I’m not 100% convinced that the people running quests this way are being genuine when they say how fast they can be run.

Practically speaking, there are far more incentives to run quests in a group – the bigger the better.

The only way new players are going to learn to a) appreciate the game, and b) stay for the long haul is if the path to learning the game and enjoying it is made easy for them. Having a bunch of people whine and cry here about “dumb noobs” isn’t going to make any of those things happen. People love this game for the complexity. However, someone who is new is not going to immediately understand that complexity, or how to properly utilize it. There isn’t what I’d call an overabundance of self-help stuff in this game that can match what it provides in features. The rest has to be fostered and developed by the game’s community.

Honestly, the self-affirmation that some people here get because they are good at a video game, to me, is sad. There is next to nothing in real life to which this game can be applied. At least if you are good at woodworking, you can parlay that into a career skill. Chest-thumping over your uber-farmed eSOS is only deserving of pity, in my eye. The game shuts off, all that effort means nothing.

To each their own, I guess.

But, by being an obnoxious vet complaining about noobs isn’t going to retain players. Five years down the line you’ll be the best player in a dying game. If you can’t see the obvious dead-end in that scenario, I really don’t know what to tell you…

Something I answered on another post in another thread but which I think might be of interest to quote here:


That´s something I could /sign any time. I would not see the bravery streak as a major source of disconnection between soloing and grouping but on a second thought you may be perfectly right.

I think there are several game mechanics that currently and in total discourage group play:

- Bravery Streaks hinder people to go into (any) groups.
- Dungeon Scaling favors the solo zerg.
- Power differences due to past life feats and better banked equipement between first lifers and new players, and the vets.
- Risk of loosing the 10% bonus for quests without deaths actually discourages many players to group.

+ Missing incentives to actively group (like XP group bonuses).
+ Too short running ship buffs - too long buff up times. Buffs are vitaly important for newer players, though, to even out the power difference between them and the vets.
+ The death penalty (loss of bonus) should only apply to the individual player.
+ Too less incentive to actually run the quests instead of flashing and zerging through. Optionals should either bring more XP and completing the quest less, or generally more optionals while doing the quests.

I might add that my guild and I do actively put up LFMs, check for new people in play and try to coach them through the first stages of the game. I from time to time sport special.made Korthos toons that do this, first lifers that upon getting to lv. 4-5 get deleted and I start anew. Several of my fellow guildies came to our guild that way and now do actively coach new players as well. And with good reason - new players do need a hand or two from time to time. I can perfectly well remember my first life in Korthos - on Sarlona. Happily I finally reached lv. 5 and Marketplace. I do fondly remember. I transfered to Wayfinder when the server opened. And without help on Sarlona, from fellow players, I would not have played DDO for more than about one week. DDO is extremely unfriendly to new players.

And this leads back to the OP stating, that it is on us players... Well, we have to do our part, yes. But... Actually, if the game would actively support grouping and actively discourage soloing, it would be better. I could run Kortos on my TRed toon (11th life) in about 45 minutes, all in, snowy side w/o gear. But I take my time and try to pick up new players along the way. i get punished by needing about 2 hours and getting less XP due to one death or the other from my fellow players - yes, this can happen on Korthos, you would not believe.

I speak for a better support of grouping. From the side of the devs / turbine. I already do my job. I would love to get some support doing it. So I dare to ask out on the OP in here. Well, if that makes me a bad and evil elitist vet, so be it.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

While I like your post, it is not only the fault of the players. Since when it is the fault of the players when there is no incentive for a certain behavior in game and on countrary, there are artificial barriers purposedly built that discourage that said appreciated behavior?


With grouping, actually grouping punishes those that group. As long as the game is designed to reward soloists and punish people that group...

Oh, by no means would I absolve the Devs. The created a system that punishes groups, sure. They also answered our cries for more soloability.
If they had done the former, it would merely make things more challenging, as there'd be no alternative.

Had they done the latter alone, it would not have been so bad. By doing both? Yeah, you're right.

I also think that there were some changes to the game that may not have been good for the game, but this thread isn't the place for it.**

But like I said in the subject line "it's not all on the Devs, not just the game" we did complain and ask for more soloability. We did allow ourselves to get into min/max mindsets that include a drive for max xp/min runs and forced the game in a few directions that maybe wouldn't be so wise, in retrospect.
...and all the things I said in the OP.






...please do not expect Paladin behavior from ALL of your fellow players. I am no Masochist, and I am quite sure a multitude of players is none either.

I don't consider myself a Paladin. Really. Not usually, at any rate. If you saw any of my responses to the anti-sploit pallies, you'd know what I mean.

All I'm doing here is addressing a problem I'm seeing.
The game has become less fun, for me at least, and that's largely due to the lack of PUGability. I liked not having to wait and gather up a party to play with other people. I liked looking at the LFMs and jumping into a party right away. Meeting new people who I can enjoy playing with just this once, or add to my friends list.
I have people I play with regularly, but just jumping in with randoms used to be a lot more fun than it is now. And feasible.

We aren't going to retain or solicit new players if we don't try to be a little nicer to them. And we'll lose more longer term players if we can't retain new players. It's a simple formula.


I'm not saying to tithe yourself to equip newbies or give up your static party to go about training newcomers. I'm not even asking anyone to donate blood.
Not all of us were immediate DDO allstars (and many still wouldn't consider ourselves as such). We suffered learning curves. Does it make me a paladin if I suggest that we try to remember this and follow the golden rule? Will it cause physical pain to try to be a little nicer?
I could be wrong, and I apologise in advance for any physical discomfort anyone might incur from following any suggestion in this thread.


I can always abandon this course and join the thread on server merges, but things don't get better that way, they just continue until the game goes into maintenance mode or no one's left.

[bsquishwizzy]

Bravery Bonus and death bonus: 100% agree.

But lets not kid ourselves, shall we? I've been in more than enough groups in the past to know EXACTLY where the problem lies. I have guildies (present and past) who avoid PUGs and groups because they got burned with a jerk or two, and just don't want to go there again. That's where the bulk of the problem lies.

To an extent, farmers who allow others to pike, that doesn't help either. The farmer already knows the quest, the piker never learns it, and eventually passes on the game because there is really no enjoyment in it. How much enjoyment is there in standing around and doing nothing?

I honestly don't see any changes the Devs make as having a huge impact on PUGs. Bravery Bonus, maybe. The rest? Not so sure.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

Ummm…er…what?

The vast majority of the OP was basically saying, “if you want a healthy game, don’t be a jerk-off.”

...

But, by being an obnoxious vet complaining about noobs isn’t going to retain players. Five years down the line you’ll be the best player in a dying game. If you can’t see the obvious dead-end in that scenario, I really don’t know what to tell you…

LOL, there's the real TL;DR version of my OP.

[Teh_Troll]

Um . . . this game was NEVER n00b friendly.

[Franke]

While I agree that a great many experienced players are;
people who are too jaded to have fun and just want to grind out the max XP/min they can, and too impatient to be helpful I don't think the situation is that cut and dried.

The quest for self-sustainability that has all but "Killed" the social aspects of the game, can, from my perspective, be found in the level raise updates and the loot debacles that accompanied them. Don't misunderstand me here, I enjoy the new content and the flexibility it's given me with regards my character builds.

Not a few players, myself included, had a fairly large stable of Characters to draw upon when the need arose. These are characters with a great deal of time and effort invested into their equipment levels. Along came the level raise to 25 and I had to decide which characters to focus on for leveling and re-equipping. By necessity this was a small portion of my collection of characters and I can only presume many players had to take similar steps.

One of my personal criteria for deciding which characters to concentrate on was survivability, it quickly became apparent the character demographic was changing and most players were concentrating on melee and caster characters. As my personal goals were reaching fruition on various characters I'd start upgrading another one in an effort to build my stable up again. Then the level raise to 28 arrived and all my recently obtained new equipment was outdated by lootgen, back to the drawing board with the small handful of characters I'd just got up to speed. So, from my point of view, most players now only run a few characters that are as self reliant as they can make them, this "community" is not as tolerant as it once was I'm afraid.

So, from my perspective, I get the impression that everyone is "hurrying" towards whatever goals they've set for themselves before some barely perceived "doom" arrives.

[Vellrad]

The only way to encourage (or force, as lot of people want) players to pugging is to destroy guild and channel systems.

People fail to understand, that LFM is supposed to be the last, not the first way to get a group.

Newbs should simply guild up, there are plenty of guilds that are willing to teach new players.

[myliftkk_v2]

Um . . . this game was NEVER n00b friendly.

I agree. There's virtually zero real valuable* information easily accessible in the beginning unless you start internet hunting (which I generally didn't do on a game, never had to to learn the ins and outs of a game before). Maybe that's what kids do nowadays for games, but I remember the days of reading a manual on D&D games and everything pretty much worked the way the manual said it did.

It wasn't until later discovering the wiki, then the forums, and having a vet talk about some things that I got a handle on how you actually build characters for higher levels. This is also considering rebuilding wasn't cheap either for a f2p player. And that's before you ever touch on what's broken, borked, fubarred, etc. The only thing that really hooked me was the mobile combat and the fact of playing so many older D&D electronic games I had a pretty decent grounding in things like the races, spells, ability points, etc.

Still, I remember being dressed down over voice in a Shroud by someone who thought my 1st life 28-wiz hp was too low to survive. It would have been, had I been less than an outstanding Jumpman player. I'm guessing they left the game or only solo now since I've not heard the like since, even when I take whomever hits the lfm in my pugs.

*See Deadlock's posts on this.

[Chai]

It used to be that we needed more well-balanced parties. That everyone had a necessary part to play, if not a role. That's not the case any longer. And yet, this is still supposed to be an MMO. (Y'all do recall that MMO stands for massively multiplayer online, right?)

How an MMO comes to the point where it's dominated by solo-artists, and people who don't actually need their parties, I have no clue. Perhaps the quest for self-sufficiency has stunted our ability to play together. All I know, is that a lot of people in these forums come off as fairly anti-social.

Lots and lots of complaining that the game discriminates against folks who like to do their own thing + refusal by those folks to stay in their lane. What I mean by this is most MMOs that want to cater to soloists have a story mode or instances that scale to number of players. That wasnt good enough for those who wanted the game to be solo friendly however. They went right for the "I must be able to complete on elite solo with no preparation" - and made it so that them getting what they wanted was at the expense of those who like to play in groups.


I think the real criticisms should be aimed at the community.

Really, let's ask ourselves: How does a newb get to level 25, or even 16, and still remain a newb?
Well, clearly, they haven't learned much. The elitists will want to say "because they're stoopid, and/or refuse to learn." But that's not my experience.

1. Most of the high level metagamers refuse to teach because it slows down their own progress.

2. XP can be bought straight cash as can gear. (There really is no longer a measuring stick for play quality other than observing play).


The defence that "people just won't learn" doesn't hold up. Sure, some people are limited, some people plateau. But these are a minority. That particular defence smacks of unwillingness and laziness.

That defense is commonly used by those who refuse to teach.


The shortest version:
Modify your behaviours, in game and on the forums. You scare away all the new fish. The ones who make the most complaints on the forums are the ones making PUG scene worse.

I dont believe that. Many of the people who are straight up trolls on the forums are not so in game. Ive played with most of the folks who continuously troll me on the forums, and I play on multiple servers. Most of them understand that being removed from the forums means the minor inconvenience of starting up a sock puppet account and they can keep posting, where all it takes is for someone to be rolling fraps in game and if the same behavior is caught, its their main in game account that is at risk.



Slightly more detailed:
[LIST]
Our server populations are in the decline.
We are getting fewer new players, and haven't much reason to expect many.
Before posting on the forums, consider that people new to the game, or considering trying the game will be reading your threads and you are an ambassador for the game.
MMO includes the word multiplayer.
Try to play with others.
Try to play nicely with others.
Try to take newbs under your wings, or you'll eventually (or soon enough) run out of people to play with, or complain about.
Guild renown decay is gone. Encourage newbie-friendliness in your guilds (or start a newb-friendly guild to vet people for your real guild).
Try opening up that last spot in your party to a random instead of popping a hire, at least once and a while. Consider it community service, pay it forward.
Try building one character that isn't self-sufficient. As a challenge to your gaming skills, and your social skills.
[/LIST ]

Done all that in the past, which is why theres no shortage of folks to play with now. There are a few unique communities of folks on specific servers created out of the ashes of "teaching channels", and now that these cats all know how to play, its not hard finding people to group with when the time comes.


Try to take newbs under your wings, or you'll eventually (or soon enough) run out of people to play with, or complain about.

I made a post about this particular bullet point a few years ago, and we are seeing evidence that this is happening right now. What happens is many of the self proclaimed elite players segregated themselves from most of the server for years at a time. They created guilds where folks of a link mind joined up. This was all fine and good when their guilds had 25+ people on at a time, and finding peopel to group with was easy for them. Many of those guilds still have high membership, but folks actively logged in a far fewer than what it used to be. Some have turned to trying to PUG again, but are realizing the power gap their own actions throughout the years has created, makes it increasingly difficult to do so. The ironic expectation some have kept over the years is that people should know how to play before joining their group, but they refuse to have positive influence on that learning experience themselves, through being willing to teach the up and coming players.

The other thing ive witnessed is there have been some guild implosions. This usually occurs when those who segregate themselves from the rest of the population end up lumped into the same guild with folks of a like mind who have negative views about everyone elses play. Once they have not played in the general populace for a long enough time, that same negative attitude that used to get directed outward at the rest of the games populace, now gets directed toward those they interact with. The behavior doesnt change simply because they only group with other self proclaimed elite, hilarity ensues, factioning occurs, and in a few different situations now where most of the folks were at odds with one or two guildies, one of them usurped from an inactive leader/successor, and kicked the rest of the folks out of the guild.

Yes, the entire "fences make friends" mentality that works in real life, isnt doing so hot in an MMO with a dwindling population. It breaks down even further when those who havent PUGd in years attempt to reinsert themselves back into the PUG scene due to no longer having the numbers in their favor.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

While I agree that a great many experienced players are; I don't think the situation is that cut and dried.

The quest for self-sustainability that has all but "Killed" the social aspects of the game, can, from my perspective, be found in the level raise updates and the loot debacles that accompanied them. Don't misunderstand me here, I enjoy the new content and the flexibility it's given me with regards my character builds.

Not a few players, myself included, had a fairly large stable of Characters to draw upon when the need arose. These are characters with a great deal of time and effort invested into their equipment levels. Along came the level raise to 25 and I had to decide which characters to focus on for leveling and re-equipping. By necessity this was a small portion of my collection of characters and I can only presume many players had to take similar steps.

One of my personal criteria for deciding which characters to concentrate on was survivability, it quickly became apparent the character demographic was changing and most players were concentrating on melee and caster characters. As my personal goals were reaching fruition on various characters I'd start upgrading another one in an effort to build my stable up again. Then the level raise to 28 arrived and all my recently obtained new equipment was outdated by lootgen, back to the drawing board with the small handful of characters I'd just got up to speed. So, from my point of view, most players now only run a few characters that are as self reliant as they can make them, this "community" is not as tolerant as it once was I'm afraid.

So, from my perspective, I get the impression that everyone is "hurrying" towards whatever goals they've set for themselves before some barely perceived "doom" arrives.

Nothing is cut and dried, unless it's come from an herb garden.

My comment regarding impatience and the max xp/min issue was mostly regarding where TRs interact with new players; which usually isn't epic.

However, I haven't really looked too closely at the latest epic levels. I recently TRed my main characters twice, so I haven't had time or access to the new epics. But I'll give your post thought as I do now.


The only way to encourage (or force, as lot of people want) players to pugging is to destroy guild and channel systems.

People fail to understand, that LFM is supposed to be the last, not the first way to get a group.

Newbs should simply guild up, there are plenty of guilds that are willing to teach new players.

I don't know that I agree with you. There are plenty of guilds, and high level guilds too, that don't give you more access to parties. At least not as much as anyone hopes or expects.

And how do you propose the guildless meet the people in guilds? Where is the common ground where guilded people meet and vet these unknowns and newbies, if not the LFMs?

Is this supposed to be like high school where there's nothing to do if you don't have a clique? (I'm not necessarily saying guilds and channels are cliquish, I haven't considered it, it's merely an analogy.)
Join up or become part of the forever alone meme?


How do you know what the LFMs are supposed to be? They didn't used to be the last resort. Are you suggesting that things used to be broken?

[Standal]

The player's aren't the problem. When I started playing DDO around the F2P launch, the forums were both much better and much worse than now. You had a large percentage of founders that just acted like it was standard to have stacks of every beneficial pot, scroll, and wand with UMD to use it. I soloed for most of a year because I didn't want to screw up in front of the vets.

The big issue with the game now is that it has no buzz. They can't relaunch F2P. How many people who want to play DDO haven't tried it? There may be some small group of people, but I think the main issue is that the game is mature. There are not huge groups of new players to recruit.

The challenge for Turbine now is to maintain their customer base in a proper order of priority. That means if you're still F2P, you're worthless to them. You value is the amount of $ you spend on subscriptions and TP.

[Vellrad]

How do you know what the LFMs are supposed to be? They didn't used to be the last resort. Are you suggesting that things used to be broken?

There are 4 ways to find groups:

1. Ask guild.
2. Ask channels.
3. Ask friends.
4. Post/join LFM.

Why would anyone chose LFMs over their friends and guildies?
And if they do, why are they guilded at all?

[rayworks]

Kill the no death bonus.



Or keep it so the only person who doesn't get the 10% bonus is the guy who died, and the not the whole group.

[Vint]

Then again, perhaps some people just aren't smart enough, or lack the skill to teach even something as simple as DDO.
Either way, the majority of newbies can and want to learn. Until we turn them off the game.

This is complete garbage. It is not my job to “turn people on to DDO”. There are people being paid by Turbine and their only job is to recruit and keep people playing. Until they offer me some sort of profit sharing then I could care less if they cannot keep people. It is their job and not yours or mine. Of course I would like the game to succeed, but put the blame where it lies and not just at the vets because you hate their playstyle.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

The player's aren't the problem. When I started playing DDO around the F2P launch, the forums were both much better and much worse than now. You had a large percentage of founders that just acted like it was standard to have stacks of every beneficial pot, scroll, and wand with UMD to use it. I soloed for most of a year because I didn't want to screw up in front of the vets.

The big issue with the game now is that it has no buzz. They can't relaunch F2P. How many people who want to play DDO haven't tried it? There may be some small group of people, but I think the main issue is that the game is mature. There are not huge groups of new players to recruit.

The challenge for Turbine now is to maintain their customer base in a proper order of priority. That means if you're still F2P, you're worthless to them. You value is the amount of $ you spend on subscriptions and TP.

There is still a trickle of new players. Go to Korthos and the Harbour and look at all the people without TR horns. Ask in the public channels.


You're 100% sure that the current player base isn't responsible, to any degree, for the lack of retention of those new players?

Well. I guess I should just get a mod to delete this thread, right away. Thanks for that.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

This is complete garbage. It is not my job to “turn people on to DDO”. There are people being paid by Turbine and their only job is to recruit and keep people playing. Until they offer me some sort of profit sharing then I could care less if they cannot keep people. It is their job and not yours or mine. Of course I would like the game to succeed, but put the blame where it lies and not just at the vets because you hate their playstyle.

Your job? Certainly not. I'd be merely happy if you tried to make sure you weren't driving them off. Not because of a job, but because you know, other people deserve a quantum of respect.

I don't really have high expectations here, you know. I really do think that the golden rule is beyond most people.

But every once and a while, I see a windmill...

[Vint]

Your job? Certainly not. I'd be merely happy if you tried to make sure you weren't driving them off. Not because of a job, but because you know, other people deserve a quantum of respect.

I don't really have high expectations here, you know. I really do think that the golden rule is beyond most people.

But every once and a while, I see a windmill...

I can understand your point and I am not the guy joining parties telling people to kill themselves either. We just have a difference of opinion. I feel that the cash grab is the biggest turn off to most new people. People here on the forums do not agree, but we all are entitled to our opinions.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

Why would anyone chose LFMs over their friends and guildies?
And if they do, why are they guilded at all?

Perhaps someone wants fresh blood in his or her guild.

Perhaps someone has decided to quit their guild because the feel it's been/being mismanaged, going in a direction they don't like, or because of drama. So the player has quit his or her guild, and is now quite turned off guilds for the present.

Perhaps because the members of one channel a player belongs to are anti-BB. (I like the BB on my TRs, not just for the XP, but I like the challenge of elite better, particularly for a TR.)

Perhaps the player has a list of quests/raids that the player cannot get any guild interest in.

Perhaps the person is a member of a guild that has lulls at certain times.

Perhaps the player doesn't/can't have scheduled or regular time for gaming, which makes it hard to play with friends &c every time the player logs in.

Perhaps it doesn't matter whether it's a guild or a channel, it always takes a while to get a party ready to quest. And you've only got 20 mins to run something and you don't want to waste 10 of them getting the party together and ready to go.

Perhaps the guild and player match each other in every aspect, but the guild doesn't raid enough.

Perhaps, because a player is in the mood for social interaction without all the extra baggage that comes with strong acquaintance or friendship.

Perhaps the player has enough RL friends, but likes playing a social game anonymously. (NSA single-serving friendships?)

Perhaps a player simply wants to no run with his or her friends and guildies. Perhaps this is the same player who uses the anonymous setting.

Perhaps because one thinks that meeting new people is enjoyable in and of itself. <--- From your post, I'd guess that this seems the most alien to you.



That's 10+ reasons off the top of my head for choosing LFMs over others. I'm sure other people can think of other reasons. I'm not very creative.


As for "why be guilded at all?"
You almost make it sound as though people are supposed to be monogamous to their guilds.
[Advice] Phaeton_Seraph asks: How do I explain to my guild leader that I really do love my guild, and nothing could ever change that, but I want to see other people too?
Jealous much? Is this a cult, or a game? Are you afraid of strangers? Did you have a bad experience? Why do you think people should play exclusively with friends and guildies?

[NaturalHazard]

That most players are unhelpful and hostile is not my experience at all, its a mixed bag I ran across that type of behavior back in 2010 as much as I run across it now. Yes there are those players who just don't want to listen to what other people have to say, some of them are new players. And yes there are those people to who just don't give a rats bottom about anyone else in the party. I do admit that the amount of pugs has seriously gone down, compared to what it use to be. I don't think byoh is that much of a problem I was doing that in 2010 when I first started. Scaling is a pain, i really notice it when im in a party and theres 5 lumps of dead weight compared to how it is solo, sure if they are new players I guess im happy to help them..........if they are appreciative and nice that is...........or sometimes its even worse and some of the dead weights are vets who should be even more experienced than me.......some people can be very stubborn, the ones that confuse me the most are the ones who roll up non-self sufficient toons yet are the least co-operative of the party members..............you roll up a toon that can't wipe its own butt then you refuse to work with the people you *need* to stay alive to even do anything...........then get mad when they finally give up on you because well.......they don't really need you really?

[NaturalHazard]

There are 4 ways to find groups:

1. Ask guild.
2. Ask channels.
3. Ask friends.
4. Post/join LFM.

Why would anyone chose LFMs over their friends and guildies?
And if they do, why are they guilded at all?

I prefer to run with my guild and friends but now days we are all spread out at different levels doing different things and there are less of them on now.

Often we would have our tr leveling groups, but for me its hard finding the time to keep up with people and also the problem of most of my friends being in a different time zone, now especially as its the people in my time zone in my friends list that has been hit the hardest.

I ran with guildies and friends more when we had some sort of end game, capped toons doing raids and old epics, now we are all over the place.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

That most players are unhelpful and hostile is not my experience at all, its a mixed bag I ran across that type of behavior back in 2010 as much as I run across it now. Yes there are those players who just don't want to listen to what other people have to say, some of them are new players. And yes there are those people to who just don't give a rats bottom about anyone else in the party. I do admit that the amount of pugs has seriously gone down, compared to what it use to be. I don't think byoh is that much of a problem I was doing that in 2010 when I first started. Scaling is a pain, i really notice it when im in a party and theres 5 lumps of dead weight compared to how it is solo, sure if they are new players I guess im happy to help them..........if they are appreciative and nice that is...........or sometimes its even worse and some of the dead weights are vets who should be even more experienced than me.......some people can be very stubborn, the ones that confuse me the most are the ones who roll up non-self sufficient toons yet are the least co-operative of the party members..............you roll up a toon that can't wipe its own butt then you refuse to work with the people you *need* to stay alive to even do anything...........then get mad when they finally give up on you because well.......they don't really need you really?

I didn't intend to suggest that a majority of players were hostile. I will say that people do seem to be becoming less helpful, in general. I wouldn't say anything about "most" though.


Thing is, it doesn't take many hostile players to ruin a person's experience.

No one remembers all the cars that didn't cut them off in traffic.

Yeah, there are some bad newbs out there too. But ranting about them on the forums, or blowing up at them in a party won't help. Usually the guy who loses his.. carp, winds up looking bad to the spectators.


Vets who play like ****, however, are worth a thread of their own.

[myliftkk_v2]

This is complete garbage. It is not my job to “turn people on to DDO”. There are people being paid by Turbine and their only job is to recruit and keep people playing. Until they offer me some sort of profit sharing then I could care less if they cannot keep people. It is their job and not yours or mine. Of course I would like the game to succeed, but put the blame where it lies and not just at the vets because you hate their playstyle.

It's not your job. But, that fact that you don't do it speaks to Turbine's failure to convert their existing fans into the vanguard of how new players are recruited (business school 101). You should want to do it because you love their product, if you don't though, that's Turbine's fault.

Businesses that have crappy products have to advertise. The one's that have great products don't, because their customers advertise for them...

[myliftkk_v2]

I didn't intend to suggest that a majority of players were hostile. I will say that people do seem to be becoming less helpful, in general. I wouldn't say anything about "most" though.


Thing is, it doesn't take many hostile players to ruin a person's experience.

No one remembers all the cars that didn't cut them off in traffic.

Yeah, there are some bad newbs out there too. But ranting about them on the forums, or blowing up at them in a party won't help. Usually the guy who loses his.. carp, winds up looking bad to the spectators.


Vets who play like ****, however, are worth a thread of their own.

I dare say the number of players turned off the game by the forum behavior alone probably hovers between 0-1% of the players. Internet forums are universally a cesspool, and most people understand that now. The fact that people have to come to the forums to ask questions is again, testament to Turbine's inability to document anything properly, or at all.

[bsquishwizzy]

This is complete garbage. It is not my job to “turn people on to DDO”. There are people being paid by Turbine and their only job is to recruit and keep people playing. Until they offer me some sort of profit sharing then I could care less if they cannot keep people. It is their job and not yours or mine. Of course I would like the game to succeed, but put the blame where it lies and not just at the vets because you hate their playstyle.

While I agree with the sentiment, it is clear that Turbine isn’t exactly Don Draper with its advertising. So if you want the game to stick around despite Turbines less-than-stellar efforts to push it, you’re probably going to have to spread the word a tad.

Oh, and the second part of that equation is that you should not actively urinate on a new player’s shoes as that had a direct impact on retention.

Not that I’m saying you do, but just spelling out a very general guideline.

[sephiroth1084]

Well? Why not? Does it cause you a moment of terror to think of not being self-sufficient? Does it cause you to shudder as badly as if I suggested not doing a min/max build?
Well, when the LFM panel is dry, and hardly anyone wants to play a healer, your choices are:

Don't play your non-self-sufficient character
Roll a different, self-sufficient character and either join a group knowing it's not a big deal if no one is there to heal you, or solo
Struggle through content that is kicking your ass


It's largely the fault of the game designers who have both made grouping less attractive, and made soloing easier. Look at:

Dungeon Scaling "rewarding" you for running solo or with fewer people
Dungeon Alert punishing groups who end up with one player who runs off aggroing things, or who gets separated and lost without saying anything to the group
Bravery Bonus, which distinctly caters to the better/veteran players, and encourages players to run quests when slightly over the quest's base level
Removal of the under-level XP bonuses for running quests of a higher level than your character, which drew folks to grouping, because it's challenging dealing with a quest 2 or 3 levels above you
The Flawless XP bonus
A treadmill design for "end game" where players are pushed into running and rerunning the same content over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again
Very little progress on significantly randomizing quest elements (traps, monsters, encounters, buffs, etc...) that would punish people who zerg through quests relying on memory and past experience, or a guide, to avoid hazards, or be prepared for certain challenges
Hirelings


And most of this was done intentionally by the devs specifically to make soloing and short-manning easier in order to cater to the WoW-style MMO crowd, who spend a lot of time playing on their own, and the very casual, yet monetarily flush gamers who can only play for short stints at a time, but who will plunk down cash to enhance their game experience.

Um . . . this game was NEVER n00b friendly.
This is true.

DDO is more complex than almost every other MMO, with a much higher chance of totally flubbing your character from the outset without any safeguards in place against this. The combat can be more complex and more unforgiving right from the outset than in many other games, and there is an enormous amount of material to consider and learn: a hundred feats, two dozen skills, 6 ability scores (that can have negative ramifications far into a character's life if they don't do some research and planning ahead of time), enhancements, half a dozen races, a dozen classes, alignment benefits and restrictions, base attack bonus and saves, and significant differences in character strength and effectiveness going even from one level to the next, significant weight placed on the order you acquire certain characteristics (to unlock additional ones with prerequisites, arranging things to fit into the leveling scheme, etc...), hundreds of spells, tactical abilities, more active-use stuff that may come up in every encounter than in most other MMOs, and they're almost all on short cooldowns.

Then we have multiclassing, which exponentially increases all of the variables to consider.

My friends who play other MMOs invariably tell me that it would be impossible to play their game of choice with a gamepad, because there's too much you have to do, yet after talking with them, or watching them play for a bit, it becomes clear that it would be significantly easier than playing DDO with a gamepad--I'd need maybe 6-10 hotkeys mapped, and maybe another 4-6 utility things (left mouse button, movement, camera) assigned to cover all the necessities, due in part to the much smaller number of activated abilities, and also owing to many of the activated abilities in other games having long durations or cooldowns, meaning that clicking a hotbar with a cursor is sufficient, whereas in DDO, I've got 28 buttons mapped, and have to make sacrifices on almost every character by moving medium-cooldown/duration abilities to hotbars to be clicked when I'd rather have them mapped (things like Frenzy and Death Frenzy, Divine Favor, etc...). Also, from what I've seen, in many other games you really only need maybe 2-5 hotbars to fit basically all of your stuff, while in DDO I have 8-12 on-screen depending on the character, and often have 2-4 more hidden that I cycle to with regularity, and I rarely see a screenshot from someone with fewer than 6 hotbars on their screen.

Then we've got active combat and movement, so you can't just double-click an enemy and get a snack, because even with auto-attack on, monsters tend to move out of your range, and we have no "Follow" command for lazy or easily lost adventurers.

DDO also lacks well-defined roles, and characters that fit those roles. Our tanks need to have DPS, for example, and our healers can be better nukers than our DPSers. Our archers can actually use distance and terrain to their advantage, and our casters have far more control over the elements of the game than most casters in other MMOs do.

Traps and terrain also emphasize twitch and platforming skills, while there are numerous puzzles in DDO that require a certain sort of thought processes and/or spacial awareness.


Maybe the biggest problem with DDO is that, since it went Free-to-Play, there has been a tremendous push by the team at Turbine (and probably WB) to make the game friendlier to new players, and people unfamiliar with D&D rules, which goes against the spirit of the game, and against the entire design of the thing. The developers have managed to entice more players to try the game out, but at some point the complexity overwhelms many players. Meanwhile, they've pushed away their hardcore fans who loved the complexity and difficulty inherent in the system and the game.

If the community has soured, much of the blame can be laid at Turbine's (and Warner Brothers') feet.

[Xianio]

I think there are some realities that need to set in here.

1) This game is very old. You're not going to get many new people, except those who really care about DnD AND aren't intimidated by the burden of knowledge. This is a small pool and will get smaller as the game ages.

2) This isn't about "marketing." It's about design. You can market your pants off, but in the end if the product doesn't reflect the message then you're not going to keep players after they 'try it.'

3) You can NEVER expect players to change. It simply won't happen. People will play in the way that's most beneficial for them - always.

The solution is simple to write down, hard to implement.

Turbine must create incentives that foster teamwork/community.

These community events are a good example of bringing the community together and showcasing how many players are actually still around. It shows just how many 'hide in the woodwork' of guild chat and tight friend groups. However, there is a lot more that can be done and it needs to be done on a design level, nothing else will change habits.

For example,


Exp. penalties for deaths should be localized so that 'vets' don't have share a significant burden for allowing newer players in.

Exp. bonuses could be awarded to players who group with people they've never grouped with before.

An up-to-date resource guide could be built into the game so that new players actually have SOME knowledge without needing outside help.

The Waterworks could be fundamentally changed to an "open area" with players and monsters available at all times. At the very least that would allow encourage players to see what it's like to group from the near start.

Segmentation could be reduced. Currently quests for different levels are all over the place. The Harbor is the one example of where this isn't true and the Harbor feels -busy- compared to every other area in the game. It's very challenging to 'gather' groups when you rarely see people in your level range.
--- The easiest way to accomplish this is to bring the resources players actually use together. Banks, Auctioneers, potion shops, mailboxes could moved close to one another to make players feel like there are lots of people around.

Introduce exp. bonuses for group play. Buffing other players, healing, resurrection all provide minor bonuses to the individual who does it. A 1-2-3% experience boost for healing X amount of HP or 1% xp bonus for the party when you raise your party members. (Caveat: The penalty for death for the individual should still significantly outweigh the benefit for raising people)


While some of those ideas won't be "good" or wouldn't end up working out, the idea is always the same.

You make the best way to play the game, the healthiest for the game. That way, everybody wins.

[sephiroth1084]

I dare say the number of players turned off the game by the forum behavior alone probably hovers between 0-1% of the players. Internet forums are universally a cesspool, and most people understand that now. The fact that people have to come to the forums to ask questions is again, testament to Turbine's inability to document anything properly, or at all.
Ah, yes, I forgot to mention this in my over-long post.

Adding to the complexity inherent in the game is the added difficulty of all sorts of things not doing what they say they do, doing things they don't say they do, and a distinct lack of support for players trying to figure it all out...unless they decide to go do some out-of-game research, or ask questions, and are ready for the answers.

[bsquishwizzy]

I guess that this thread should be interpreted in a way best suited for the traditional ways of fixing things.

Something, somewhere needs to be nerfed.

[hp1055cm]

The shortest version:
Modify your behaviours, in game and on the forums. You scare away all the new fish. The ones who make the most complaints on the forums are the ones making PUG scene worse.

Slightly more detailed:

Our server populations are in the decline.
We are getting fewer new players, and haven't much reason to expect many.
Before posting on the forums, consider that people new to the game, or considering trying the game will be reading your threads and you are an ambassador for the game.
MMO includes the word multiplayer.
Try to play with others.
Try to play nicely with others.
Try to take newbs under your wings, or you'll eventually (or soon enough) run out of people to play with, or complain about.
Guild renown decay is gone. Encourage newbie-friendliness in your guilds (or start a newb-friendly guild to vet people for your real guild).
Try opening up that last spot in your party to a random instead of popping a hire, at least once and a while. Consider it community service, pay it forward.
Try building one character that isn't self-sufficient. As a challenge to your gaming skills, and your social skills.

I am not a big fan of novel length posts.
Try to be more concise as rambling bores some people and they might get a bad impression of forum users.
One of the things missing on your lists is culpability for the "newbs".
Some of these people just might not be into DDO don't ya' think? Maybe they just bail on their own terms.

I suspect that some casual players try it out and decide it is more involved then they bargained for or they find another venue to spend their entertainment time.
Not everybody is all touchy-feely about getting along with everyone and in fact you might turn some people off the game by pampering them as if they can't navigate it by themselves.

My list would put the problems inherent in the game as the first reason for decay. Second would be the way the game is developed/managed/marketed/operated. Third would be the Newb themselves for whatever reason they are turned off from DDO. Forth, maybe, I would be willing to believe that the current player base possibly drives people away.
I get your main point - but IMO you could be more succinct and objective in your analysis.


There are 4 ways to find groups:
1. Ask guild.
2. Ask channels.
3. Ask friends.
4. Post/join LFM.
Why would anyone chose LFMs over their friends and guildies?
And if they do, why are they guilded at all?

What game are you playing? Not everyone is in a static group. Not everyone camps at level 28.
It is wonderful that you found a system that works for you - but it doesn't work for everyone.

My guild has hundreds of members and most of them play on their own schedules, at their own rate.
I see people join, play for awhile and then move on. I see them start 8 different mediocre characters, hardly concentrate on making one of them sustainable and get burn out from all the options.
To some people a guild is ship buffs...
To others it is a social gig where they chat and socialize, but not necessarily run with members.
The ideal of a guild isn't the reality of guilds in DDO.

In almost 2 years I have yet to find anyone who progresses at my pace and I sometimes grind and other times park and say run shroud for 3 weeks. Most often I will group with someone and run into them a few times over the next few days before one or the other levels above.
I use the LFM panel as my primary way to find groups and most of the time I run solo or with 2-3 people.

The THING about the LFM panel is that it could be better and it should be a standout feature of DDO - it should be a tool that they brag about and use to promote the game. But it isn't that; it is just okay.


Or keep it so the only person who doesn't get the 10% bonus is the guy who died, and the not the whole group.
I don't get this argument at all. It's not as if the trapper is the only one who gets the disabling bonus, or the person with the highest diplomacy/intimidate is the only one that gets the bonus for those optionals. It's a party bonus pure and simple. Besides, who would forfeit the bonus for a hire dying?

[EllisDee37]

All this talk of inviso-running quests on solo? I’ve tried it on toons that can do stealth and invis. I’m not 100% convinced that the people running quests this way are being genuine when they say how fast they can be run.Inviso-runners don't use stealth.

[NaturalHazard]

I didn't intend to suggest that a majority of players were hostile. I will say that people do seem to be becoming less helpful, in general. I wouldn't say anything about "most" though.


Thing is, it doesn't take many hostile players to ruin a person's experience.

No one remembers all the cars that didn't cut them off in traffic.

Yeah, there are some bad newbs out there too. But ranting about them on the forums, or blowing up at them in a party won't help. Usually the guy who loses his.. carp, winds up looking bad to the spectators.


Vets who play like ****, however, are worth a thread of their own.

I moan more about vets than newbs.

Though those bad stubborn noobs often turn into the vets that everyone complains about, if they hang around long enough.

[NaturalHazard]

I guess that this thread should be interpreted in a way best suited for the traditional ways of fixing things.

Something, somewhere needs to be nerfed.

Nerf everything and everyone and call it a day.

[AzB]

Why would anyone chose LFMs over their friends and guildies?
And if they do, why are they guilded at all?

I am a member of a very large guild.

Sometimes I play at odd times and when I check to see who from my guild is online, there are only 5 or 6 folks. The odds that any of them would be in my level range are slim. This has become quite a bit more common in the last year or so.

Sometimes I want to meet new people.

[Seikojin]

What I saw in the OP: people get to cap despite not knowing the game. Agreed. There are tons of people putting up IP lfm's allowing others to join, get exp (pike style), chests, etc, without contributing anything other than a thanks.

Mainly people do this to help fellow zergers or tr's who don't want to grind, or to help people on their path to cap. No one in their right mind turns down free exp.

However, it is up to players to express their perspective if they expect more from the party than piking. As a lead, speak up. Making assumptions leads to party wipes.

[Postumus]

The only way to encourage (or force, as lot of people want) players to pugging is to destroy guild and channel systems.

People fail to understand, that LFM is supposed to be the last, not the first way to get a group.

Newbs should simply guild up, there are plenty of guilds that are willing to teach new players.


Proof that even a broken Vellrad is right twice a day.


Seriously there should be better in game methods to introduce newbies to guilds. Like an in game bulletin board for recruitment.

[Singular]

Well? Why not? Does it cause you a moment of terror to think of not being self-sufficient? Does it cause you to shudder as badly as if I suggested not doing a min/max build?
Yeah, it goes contrary to everything the 'leets say, but there are still a few people who play and have fun that way (though, they probably don't post on the forums), the main point is that it would encourage people to play as groups.

I'm not saying do it with all your toons, just one, as an experiment.

I have. It sucks.

It's bad advice to tell people not to be self-sufficient.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

I have. It sucks.

It's bad advice to tell people not to be self-sufficient.

Why? Because you couldn't solo? Because you couldn't depend on your party members? Because everyone treated you like **** for not being self-sufficient?

If so, then this game has no future. And it doesn't deserve one.

[ranthrock]

Um . . . this game was NEVER n00b friendly.

Troll is right. I think all of us are fairly ashamed of our first few toons (I remember my 1st barbarian with the AC of 13 trying to run Vale...shamequit in the middle of RwtD after dying like 6 times...and this was on normal back in 2007ish). I think we also all remember how great it was the first time we figured out that if you got enough levels in paladin or ranger you could cast heal spells on yourself, and how much easier it was than trying to run a straight fighter or barb who could not heal himself.

DDO rewards multiclassing to a great extent. Self-sufficiency is something that you hopefully discover in your first few builds or that someone mentions to you. Before hirelings, I can remember waiting a half an hour for some pug group to find a healer (or spam inviting "Hey, M8, want to run level4 quest irestone inlet?") Those days were not necessarily better for new players. Until DDO makes it so that a fighter or barb or rogue can reliably heal up with pots on elite content, you're not going to get people to avoid splashing a few levels of cleric/wizard/roll a bladeforged, or whatever to make their character more likely to die.

When I first started playing, there were a ton of people on Khyber who helped me learn how to play the game as I caused their ToD's to fail. As I got more experienced, I like to think that I tried to pass that on to guildies, etc., and bring them up through the ranks (a guildie I helped mentor just finished his ESOS the other day...super proud day for me).

On the other hand, people generally want to play at their ability level, whether it's tennis, boingy-boingy, or DDO. It's super fun for me to duo or trio a quest with people at my ability level. It's a PITA to have to raise the bad sorc who dies over and over and over again.

Bravery Bonus saved TRing and made it much more enjoyable to grind out lives; I'm not sure if it's outlived its usefulness, but maybe. The Death Penalty for the group has always been dumb, should have been done away with a long time ago.

On the other hand, there just doesn't seem to be enough new blood in the game for beginning level players to find a pug that won't include a few Ubers in the group that hinder their learning.

Anyway, Troll is right.

[NaturalHazard]

Why? Because you couldn't solo? Because you couldn't depend on your party members? Because everyone treated you like **** for not being self-sufficient?

If so, then this game has no future. And it doesn't deserve one.

Because people like to not wait around for long periods of time for the perfect party? Heck if I had to wait for a full party including a hjealer for myself during the times I play I would still be working my way to the old cap now.

Its not just being able to heal yourself being able to hit someone else in a bad spot with a heal is nice as well, I feel kinda bad when a party member is about to go down and I cant do much lol. Is it such a bad thing to have toon that can self heal and take care of a lot of its own potential booboos?

[ranthrock]

What I saw in the OP: people get to cap despite not knowing the game. Agreed. There are tons of people putting up IP lfm's allowing others to join, get exp (pike style), chests, etc, without contributing anything other than a thanks.

Mainly people do this to help fellow zergers or tr's who don't want to grind, or to help people on their path to cap. No one in their right mind turns down free exp.

However, it is up to players to express their perspective if they expect more from the party than piking. As a lead, speak up. Making assumptions leads to party wipes.

I played the same toon through 3 lives before I really felt like I was a decent player. Nobody learns all the ins and outs in one life. There were plenty of noobs (myself included) playing level 20's when FTP first was introduced, and there still are. Nothing has changed here, except that the really good players from 2007 now have 7 more years of experience under their belt and are waaaay less tolerant of them (myself included).

[NaturalHazard]

Troll is right. I think all of us are fairly ashamed of our first few toons (I remember my 1st barbarian with the AC of 13 trying to run Vale...shamequit in the middle of RwtD after dying like 6 times...and this was on normal back in 2007ish). I think we also all remember how great it was the first time we figured out that if you got enough levels in paladin or ranger you could cast heal spells on yourself, and how much easier it was than trying to run a straight fighter or barb who could not heal himself.

DDO rewards multiclassing to a great extent. Self-sufficiency is something that you hopefully discover in your first few builds or that someone mentions to you. Before hirelings, I can remember waiting a half an hour for some pug group to find a healer (or spam inviting "Hey, M8, want to run level4 quest irestone inlet?") Those days were not necessarily better for new players. Until DDO makes it so that a fighter or barb or rogue can reliably heal up with pots on elite content, you're not going to get people to avoid splashing a few levels of cleric/wizard/roll a bladeforged, or whatever to make their character more likely to die.

When I first started playing, there were a ton of people on Khyber who helped me learn how to play the game as I caused their ToD's to fail. As I got more experienced, I like to think that I tried to pass that on to guildies, etc., and bring them up through the ranks (a guildie I helped mentor just finished his ESOS the other day...super proud day for me).

On the other hand, people generally want to play at their ability level, whether it's tennis, boingy-boingy, or DDO. It's super fun for me to duo or trio a quest with people at my ability level. It's a PITA to have to raise the bad sorc who dies over and over and over again.

Bravery Bonus saved TRing and made it much more enjoyable to grind out lives; I'm not sure if it's outlived its usefulness, but maybe. The Death Penalty for the group has always been dumb, should have been done away with a long time ago.

On the other hand, there just doesn't seem to be enough new blood in the game for beginning level players to find a pug that won't include a few Ubers in the group that hinder their learning.

Anyway, Troll is right.

Yes this game seems to be a lot more complex and unforgiving for a long time compared to others out there, remember the terrible preset paths we have that chooses things for you? I doubt most average joes are going to jump in and build a character thats going to be able to be good in every content, so many newb traps and pitfalls, the only reason why my first toons where not fails was yes this horrible horrible forums and community I came on here and asked around about builds first.

[Gljosh]

My first build was a Elf Paladin (it worked well in pnp) and I ran back and forth from S/B and thf. It took forever, to get to 20 and it was expensive, my gear sucked and most people where WAY better than me. 12 past lives and 5 Epic past lives later, my gear is decent and some people are WAY better than me. I have played with pure rogues who could not trap and 18?/2 rog that could do EH traps easily. I see LFMs that say BYOH, be self sufficient, Elite for BB, don't suck, etc. Some people are flat out jerks, I have been in Abbott raids that people state are training raids and we fail 3 times in a row, some people rage quit and others stick it out and learn a little bit about the raid, those moments are few and far between. People get ****ed when someone smashes a crystal and stops those 2 chests in Shroud, I have known people that are blocked from joining groups because this happened once or the need 400hp to join. I can solo on En/Eh, but would prefer to run Eh in groups. Some people will say that my play style sucks because I have all these past lives and can not Solo EE. We also have a community that praises EE solo builds and soloing raids. When I played CoH/CoV they had enemies that required small armies to defeat and characters had pretty well defined roles, that game died because it kinda forced team play. So once the numbers began to dip it became harder to play, rinse and repeat. At this point Turbine might want to combine some more servers and adjust the trainer quests (Korthos and Harbor).

[IronClan]

Agree with OP.

I'm not sure if there is any other game that TRs down to level 1 like DDO, which results in brand new players potentially meeting ultra uber vets very early on.

Being new together and exploring quests together are some of my finest memories of DDO, and I am afraid that TRs ruin that experience, and hope that turbine can find away to help new players find each other in pugs.

This is an incredibly good point, that no one talks about enough. New players want to explore and find things... they don't want to find out that there's nothing good behind any secret door... (this is a problem of game/map design and meta gaming). They don't want to be told "optionals are a waste of time, better to repeat the quest over and over and ignore them". They most definitely don't want to say "I'm new", "where is this quest", "can you share I don't know where the quest giver person is". They don't want to cost the TR guy 10% XP, they don't want to appologize when it happens anyway. They don't want to miss their trap saves when they follow everyone else "running through the traps"... they don't want to not know where the trap box is located, they don't want to be told "over here n00b, search where I'm standing"... etc. etc. etc.

DDO's main failures outside of basing the engine on FPS skill-set (limiting their appeal to largely mouse click movement based RPG players), are meta gaming as a core principle of the games design (they should have had random stuff built into the engine from the start) and the hostility to new players that this meta gaming breeds... and then a few years later compounding this problem by pushing veteran players into constant contact with new players. HARMING BOTH in the process.

Now if there was less stuff for Vet's to lord over new players heads it wouldn't be such an issue (less meta gaming).

Imagine:
Secrets are always in unknown locations, and hide AWESOME LOOT then everyone wants to find them... even if it takes going slower.
NO ONE "knows it" because it's largely random generated layouts.
No one runs through traps because they are random located and likely to kill/wipe you most of the time.
Optional objectives are awesome XP and loot, but really dangerous, and also randomized location/variety
No one knows the trap box location... it's near the unknown location of the trap after all.
-10% penalty (intended to promote team work) is not needed, because players want to work as a team because the lack of meta gaming makes that the most effective strategy.
Quest location and Quest giver are 100% optional, as joining the LFM bestows the quest, and clicking the "travel to quest" option gets you to the location.

Players can indeed help DDO, but we need help helping, and the game could be a lot more friendly by just meeting more of the expectations of Dungeons and Dragons.

[Teh_Troll]

Anyway, Troll is right.

This is where the thread should have ended.

[dragonofsteel2]

OP makes some true statements, but the point is way off. It is not my job to market this game. It the game job to do this and make it newb friendly. If Trubine makes easier for me to solo to accomplish what I want, then guess what I will solo. Not rocket science here, I come to play this game for fun. I not here to train newbs or to sale them on the game. I am here to play and have fun. Yes if want help the game be more successful by all means help new players. Talk to your friends and get them to play. Please keep posting why everyone should join in this effort, I love the entertainment from these threads. If this game dies, what happens to my life hmm. Let me think I spend more time with my family? I play a different game? The world ends? It really not that important to me if the game succeed or fails. Op might think it is by his remarks. I enjoyed the time I have had playing, but will not change my play style just to help the game make money off new players.

Please keep posting these threads though I love them. I always enjoy threads telling everyone how they should behave. Yes I think spending my entire life making sure ddo succeeds is great goal. That my vision for a great and long life. Helping another gamer is like walking that old lady across the street. If really so worry about being person with good character why don't help the poor and homeless out? Help the uneducated train for new jobs. That why these threads make me cry and laugh at the same time. OP jumps down Power gamers for bad morals and character like helping a game company make money is good character. Really, I should dedicate my life to thriving DDO community? Yes if this was perfect world we all would have time to build the prefect gaming world for the original poster. Though since it is not stop placing responsibility on other players to create your perfect gaming world. Have fun and enjoy your entertainment dollar at work.

[Kir1]

And this leads back to the OP stating, that it is on us players... Well, we have to do our part, yes. But... Actually, if the game would actively support grouping and actively discourage soloing, it would be better. I could run Kortos on my TRed toon (11th life) in about 45 minutes, all in, snowy side w/o gear. But I take my time and try to pick up new players along the way. i get punished by needing about 2 hours and getting less XP due to one death or the other from my fellow players - yes, this can happen on Korthos, you would not believe.


Cant agree more.

[Nestroy]

I think there are some realities that need to set in here.

1) This game is very old. You're not going to get many new people, except those who really care about DnD AND aren't intimidated by the burden of knowledge. This is a small pool and will get smaller as the game ages.

2) This isn't about "marketing." It's about design. You can market your pants off, but in the end if the product doesn't reflect the message then you're not going to keep players after they 'try it.'

3) You can NEVER expect players to change. It simply won't happen. People will play in the way that's most beneficial for them - always.

The solution is simple to write down, hard to implement.

Turbine must create incentives that foster teamwork/community.

These community events are a good example of bringing the community together and showcasing how many players are actually still around. It shows just how many 'hide in the woodwork' of guild chat and tight friend groups. However, there is a lot more that can be done and it needs to be done on a design level, nothing else will change habits.

For example,


Exp. penalties for deaths should be localized so that 'vets' don't have share a significant burden for allowing newer players in.

Exp. bonuses could be awarded to players who group with people they've never grouped with before.

An up-to-date resource guide could be built into the game so that new players actually have SOME knowledge without needing outside help.

The Waterworks could be fundamentally changed to an "open area" with players and monsters available at all times. At the very least that would allow encourage players to see what it's like to group from the near start.

Segmentation could be reduced. Currently quests for different levels are all over the place. The Harbor is the one example of where this isn't true and the Harbor feels -busy- compared to every other area in the game. It's very challenging to 'gather' groups when you rarely see people in your level range.
--- The easiest way to accomplish this is to bring the resources players actually use together. Banks, Auctioneers, potion shops, mailboxes could moved close to one another to make players feel like there are lots of people around.

Introduce exp. bonuses for group play. Buffing other players, healing, resurrection all provide minor bonuses to the individual who does it. A 1-2-3% experience boost for healing X amount of HP or 1% xp bonus for the party when you raise your party members. (Caveat: The penalty for death for the individual should still significantly outweigh the benefit for raising people)


While some of those ideas won't be "good" or wouldn't end up working out, the idea is always the same.

You make the best way to play the game, the healthiest for the game. That way, everybody wins.

^ This ^ - gets a +1 for the suggestions.

[Nestroy]

Proof that even a broken Vellrad is right twice a day.


Seriously there should be better in game methods to introduce newbies to guilds. Like an in game bulletin board for recruitment.

The ingame guild bulletin boards have already been discussed and occassionally demanded from the devs. So far they did not even seem to ignore the request. I am therefore very negative on the outlook of this ever getting realized. But the idea is very sound indeed!

[Kir1]

It's largely the fault of the game designers who have both made grouping less attractive, and made soloing easier. Look at:

Dungeon Scaling "rewarding" you for running solo or with fewer people
Dungeon Alert punishing groups who end up with one player who runs off aggroing things, or who gets separated and lost without saying anything to the group
Bravery Bonus, which distinctly caters to the better/veteran players, and encourages players to run quests when slightly over the quest's base level
Removal of the under-level XP bonuses for running quests of a higher level than your character, which drew folks to grouping, because it's challenging dealing with a quest 2 or 3 levels above you
The Flawless XP bonus
A treadmill design for "end game" where players are pushed into running and rerunning the same content over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again
Very little progress on significantly randomizing quest elements (traps, monsters, encounters, buffs, etc...) that would punish people who zerg through quests relying on memory and past experience, or a guide, to avoid hazards, or be prepared for certain challenges
Hirelings


I am not native speaker so i cant express my thoughts as clearly as you did, thank you for explaining why Solo for most quests is more rewarding and easier then Grouping.

[Nestroy]

(...)Imagine:
Secrets are always in unknown locations, and hide AWESOME LOOT then everyone wants to find them... even if it takes going slower.
NO ONE "knows it" because it's largely random generated layouts.
No one runs through traps because they are random located and likely to kill/wipe you most of the time.
Optional objectives are awesome XP and loot, but really dangerous, and also randomized location/variety
No one knows the trap box location... it's near the unknown location of the trap after all.
-10% penalty (intended to promote team work) is not needed, because players want to work as a team because the lack of meta gaming makes that the most effective strategy.
Quest location and Quest giver are 100% optional, as joining the LFM bestows the quest, and clicking the "travel to quest" option gets you to the location.

Players can indeed help DDO, but we need help helping, and the game could be a lot more friendly by just meeting more of the expectations of Dungeons and Dragons.

+1 for the ideas. Another great suggestion on how to immediately improve DDO to another and better level.

[Kawai]

Imagine:
Secrets are always in unknown locations, and hide AWESOME LOOT then everyone wants to find them... even if it takes going slower.
NO ONE "knows it" because it's largely random generated layouts.
No one runs through traps because they are random located and likely to kill/wipe you most of the time.
Optional objectives are awesome XP and loot, but really dangerous, and also randomized location/variety
No one knows the trap box location... it's near the unknown location of the trap after all.
-10% penalty (intended to promote team work) is not needed, because players want to work as a team because the lack of meta gaming makes that the most effective strategy.
Quest location and Quest giver are 100% optional, as joining the LFM bestows the quest, and clicking the "travel to quest" option gets you to the location.

Xerox this pls & post new thread.
this really really really needs to happ!

and ditto to wha ^^he^^ said... +1

[Scraap]

Imagine:
Secrets are always in unknown locations, and hide AWESOME LOOT then everyone wants to find them... even if it takes going slower.
NO ONE "knows it" because it's largely random generated layouts.
No one runs through traps because they are random located and likely to kill/wipe you most of the time.
Optional objectives are awesome XP and loot, but really dangerous, and also randomized location/variety
No one knows the trap box location... it's near the unknown location of the trap after all.
-10% penalty (intended to promote team work) is not needed, because players want to work as a team because the lack of meta gaming makes that the most effective strategy.
Quest location and Quest giver are 100% optional, as joining the LFM bestows the quest, and clicking the "travel to quest" option gets you to the location.

Players can indeed help DDO, but we need help helping, and the game could be a lot more friendly by just meeting more of the expectations of Dungeons and Dragons.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[sephiroth1084]

Why? Because you couldn't solo? Because you couldn't depend on your party members? Because everyone treated you like **** for not being self-sufficient?

Because people don't like having to wait around forever to fill their group just to get started on a quest. I remember, back when I started playing, waiting around for 30 minutes, or even an hour sometimes waiting for a healer or a rogue for some normal quests that were just challenging enough to really require a strong party, and waiting for an hour or more with some regularity to fill a raid missing that last healer (and sometimes any healers), or rogue, or caster, or tank, then down the road waiting for that healer, rogue, or caster to fill out an epic LFM. Occasionally you'd wait for a strong melee, too, but that was rare, since melees are more prevalent (owing to being easier to get into and play, with less of a learning curve, and not quite so heavily dependent upon having the best gear).

Because people shouldn't be a burden on their fellow players. What reason is there to suggest a fighter or barbarian should be running around from fight to fight without ever healing themselves, whether or not there is a "healer" in the group or not?

Because self-sufficiency not only makes soloing easier, but it also makes grouping easier, and can result in you saving the day when things go sideways, rather than the whole quest failing, or you sitting on your soulstone watching someone else save the day.

Depending on party members is all well and good when they are fulfilling a role you cannot, and you're complementing each others' skill sets, but not being self-sufficient doesn't fall into this category--as a fighter, you want a caster along to lay down CC, or a rogue to disable traps, and you want a healer to see you through the tough fights, but if you're relying on that healer to babysit you through the whole quest, all you're doing is dictating that that player bend their game experience to support your own, rather than doing what they would like to do.

This is an incredibly good point, that no one talks about enough. New players want to explore and find things... they don't want to find out that there's nothing good behind any secret door... (this is a problem of game/map design and meta gaming). They don't want to be told "optionals are a waste of time, better to repeat the quest over and over and ignore them". They most definitely don't want to say "I'm new", "where is this quest", "can you share I don't know where the quest giver person is". They don't want to cost the TR guy 10% XP, they don't want to appologize when it happens anyway. They don't want to miss their trap saves when they follow everyone else "running through the traps"... they don't want to not know where the trap box is located, they don't want to be told "over here n00b, search where I'm standing"... etc. etc. etc.

DDO's main failures outside of basing the engine on FPS skill-set (limiting their appeal to largely mouse click movement based RPG players), are meta gaming as a core principle of the games design (they should have had random stuff built into the engine from the start) and the hostility to new players that this meta gaming breeds... and then a few years later compounding this problem by pushing veteran players into constant contact with new players. HARMING BOTH in the process.

Now if there was less stuff for Vet's to lord over new players heads it wouldn't be such an issue (less meta gaming).

Imagine:
Secrets are always in unknown locations, and hide AWESOME LOOT then everyone wants to find them... even if it takes going slower.
NO ONE "knows it" because it's largely random generated layouts.
No one runs through traps because they are random located and likely to kill/wipe you most of the time.
Optional objectives are awesome XP and loot, but really dangerous, and also randomized location/variety
No one knows the trap box location... it's near the unknown location of the trap after all.
-10% penalty (intended to promote team work) is not needed, because players want to work as a team because the lack of meta gaming makes that the most effective strategy.
Quest location and Quest giver are 100% optional, as joining the LFM bestows the quest, and clicking the "travel to quest" option gets you to the location.

Players can indeed help DDO, but we need help helping, and the game could be a lot more friendly by just meeting more of the expectations of Dungeons and Dragons.

All of this, yes.

[DunkleNymphe]

I'd just like to add in a little piece of though, an idea I encountered in a kinda obscure French anime-style MMO.
I like the idea a lot because it actively encouraged grouping in a way I never considered before. It works like this:

After each combat the players hada %-chance to get loot. Loot was randomized, though you could figure out that certain monsters tended to leave certain types of loot. There were "loot thresholds" built in, which meant that just for the chance to have certain loot appear at all, characters need a certain "loot level" (which was basically a stat).
Now the innovative twist to it was: The loot levels of all characters participating in the battle were added to calculate the chance for rare items to appear.

For example to have a rare piece of fur (which you need for crafting) to appear, there had to be a minimum look level of 300. Below that, the item would never drop.
Characters usually had a loot level of 100 (with good gear it may be raised of course). So a soloist had no chance of ever obtaining the item (unless somehow getting geat that provides 200 additional loot levels, which is possible but at that point there was no reason to actually go for that rare item anymore). So anyone who wanted/needed the item HAD to group with at least 2 other people.

Of course there were also items that required a full group (800 loot levels) for even a chance to appear.

This little idea forced people to play in a group. Not because the quest/battle was that hard, but because of the common goal of obtaining an item. And as they were already in a group, they started to talk, decide on tactice, eventually banding together in the future. So it helped a lot getting people in contact with each other. There were still soloists, but playing solo slowed you down when you want to acquire gear.

I could see that idea used in DDO as well (though with crafting being dead it had to be heavily modified or crafting being revived first).
Just a quick idea: a certain %-bonus to drop named items/tomes or whatever is considered rare and valuable. 3 players in the quest when a particular chest is opened = +5% to the chance of each player; 4 players = +7%, 5 players +10%, 6 players +15%.
Or maybe a higher loot level of chests, like: 4 players +1 loot level, 6 players +2 loot levels.

Of course, giving groups a "teamwork xp bonus" might be a way encourage group play, too, but as xp is mostly awarded at quest completion, it seems somewhat hard to handle and potentially unfair if for example people join or get DC'd just a moment before completion.

[ulgabi]

This is all nice wise and fluffy but...

Powergamers whine in threads because the game is too easy. They are too **** stupid to realize they screwed up their game experience. Not just the rerunning of the old quest, but any new release because, they can just walk through the quest while mobs shot/hit them without caring, grab the objective, walk out the same fashion while an Indiana Jones crushing boulder smash into them without doing any damage.

Elitist jerks make threads asking how to be a polite elitist jerk. You cant. Your an *******, and people will notice, and wont want to play with you, and off to soloing in a **** "massively multiplayer online" game!
And than you can write it in your bio:
"Mostly soloed.
Party time :o"
Yes that is an actual quote from some lvl28 bio.

IP. No I wont join an IP because I ****ing wont walk through an empty dungeon, and you are not too important to wait 5-10 min for the party to gather.

Someone mentioned guilds and some stupid stuff about grouping with guild rather than LFM. And yes that is the 4th stupidest thing I saw on the forum through the years.
70% of the players join guilds to equip items that need guild lvl, and for the guild buffs. Not because "Oh we are going to do adventures with the other guildies, and pick flowers together and feed bunny wabbits, and be besties forever yaaaay".
But they might not be online when you are. LFM is (or would be) a much better way to find parties than guilds.
Now you might answer that "You probably joined the wrong guild because my guild is the bestest and we have lots of fun and do quests and chat and hug each other".
There are thousands of guilds in ddo. Some people had a hobby to make new guilds and level it up. How the hell are you supposed to find a good guild? Who would want to screw around changing guilds over and over again.

Some people had the habit of making threads about the horrors of PUG. Oh yeah I feel your pain. Well you suck. If you can't finish quests with a random group of people, than whine about it, you suck. I failed a great number of quests and still want to pug. Still don't want to solo. Still not *****ing about it.

Nothing new really though.

So we can talk about inevitable decline, and lack of advertisement.
But how should turbine advertise?
"We have an elaborate class system, a dozen classes with enhancement specs, adventures, a working business model that other MMOs copying lately, and the stupidest player base that ruined us. Enjoy!"
In short the above examples are just sad, but despite that, its a continuing trend.
But blaming the community is last years hip. If nobody cared so far, why should we do now?

[EllisDee37]

IP. No I wont join an IP because I ****ing wont walk through an empty dungeon, and you are not too important to wait 5-10 min for the party to gather.Ugh, you would expect me to wait 5-10 minutes for you to bother showing up to the quest? Count me quite happy that my IP LFMs prevent people like you from joining. Sheesh.

[Fedora1]

Ugh, you would expect me to wait 5-10 minutes for you to bother showing up to the quest? Count me quite happy that my IP LFMs prevent people like you from joining. Sheesh.

Off topic but last week I joined an IP gianthold quest. Just as I entered the quest, literally, the guy completed it. So I pop in and within 2 seconds I see the quest completion pop up showing I got 15k xp. lol

[Nestroy]

I think this cannot be quoted too often:


Imagine:
Secrets are always in unknown locations, and hide AWESOME LOOT then everyone wants to find them... even if it takes going slower.
NO ONE "knows it" because it's largely random generated layouts.
No one runs through traps because they are random located and likely to kill/wipe you most of the time.
Optional objectives are awesome XP and loot, but really dangerous, and also randomized location/variety
No one knows the trap box location... it's near the unknown location of the trap after all.
-10% penalty (intended to promote team work) is not needed, because players want to work as a team because the lack of meta gaming makes that the most effective strategy.
Quest location and Quest giver are 100% optional, as joining the LFM bestows the quest, and clicking the "travel to quest" option gets you to the location.

I still think this deserves a genuine thread...

[Firepants]

I think this cannot be quoted too often:



I still think this deserves a genuine thread...
Yeah, let's expect the development team that can't even expand storage space to come up with some ultra complex dungeon randomization routine and retroactively apply that to all existing content as well. Meanwhile I'll be waiting for my pet dinosaur to come back from his romp with Jesus Christ spreading love and dinosaur honey to all of the poor kids in the world. Get a grip.

If they stopped making **** up rule-wise and had stuck to the already existent rule sets, with minor tweaks for real time vs turn based, they wouldn't HAVE to figure out dopey new systems that are broken from day one and could have focused on more actual game to play. More content = more grouping because more people haven't done it all to death so people get to rely on one another again. You see it EVERY new dungeon release until the quest is played out enough and documented enough that people start soloing it.

[FalseFlag]

Wow, that's a lot of words expended to simply say "Wahhh, play the way I say!"

[SSFWEl]

Quest location and Quest giver are 100% optional, as joining the LFM bestows the quest, and clicking the "travel to quest" option gets you to the location.
.

THIS

this is probably the NUMBER ONE reason why newbs don't want to join LFMs. I remember being so scared to ask where the quest was, that I kept wiki on all the time. And by the time I find the quest and figure out want pack it is, and where it is, the LFM was full.

Add a line next to the LFM saying what pack it is, add a "port to quest entrance" and the game is saved.

[Koowluh]

Yeah, let's expect the development team that can't even expand storage space to come up with some ultra complex dungeon randomization routine and retroactively apply that to all existing content as well. Meanwhile I'll be waiting for my pet dinosaur to come back from his romp with Jesus Christ spreading love and dinosaur honey to all of the poor kids in the world. Get a grip.


Not to mention that this "random" idea dries up pretty fast when there's only a few iterations of "random." You can design a room with 3 different trap box positions, but as soon as players learn those 3 positions, the trick is done. Not worth spending valuable development time on when it can be better spent figuring out how to expand storage space. Or, you know, fix bugs that have been here for years already.

[Firepants]

Not to mention that this "random" idea dries up pretty fast when there's only a few iterations of "random." You can design a room with 3 different trap box positions, but as soon as players learn those 3 positions, the trick is done. Not worth spending valuable development time on when it can be better spent figuring out how to expand storage space. Or, you know, fix bugs that have been here for years already.
Or they could be making DDO Next based on the D&D Next ruleset coming out soon and taking into account all of their botches and missteps in DDO "classic". Maybe end up with a modular code base that is actually expandable over time instead of shackled with ridiculous limitations like character item storage.

[Nestroy]

THIS

this is probably the NUMBER ONE reason why newbs don't want to join LFMs. I remember being so scared to ask where the quest was, that I kept wiki on all the time. And by the time I find the quest and figure out want pack it is, and where it is, the LFM was full.

Add a line next to the LFM saying what pack it is, add a "port to quest entrance" and the game is saved.

Since they plan to rework the adventure compendium anyway: Just put a marker besides the lfm entry in the social panel with a green checker if the pack is already bought and (for Turbine to make money ;)) a coin symbol linking to the appropriate pack in the shop if the pack is still to be aquired. Alternatively the link goes to a 30 min adventure pass...

[Singular]

Why? Because you couldn't solo? Because you couldn't depend on your party members? Because everyone treated you like **** for not being self-sufficient?

If so, then this game has no future. And it doesn't deserve one.

Because if you cannot keep yourself up, you cannot contribute fully to the party and there's nothing to do when no healers are around..

Yes. And no, not everyone.

It's simply poor advice to tell someone 'depend on others, just min/max your toon to prevent self healing.' That means that when:

1. the party goes down, and you're up, you can't help them
2. the healer goes down, or dc's, you're out of luck
3. you end up separated, you're out of luck
4. other people are taking lots of damage, the cleric can't get to you, you're out of luck
5. the healer is oom, you're screwed
6. no healers join your party - oh, nothing to do
7. you want to run a quest, but nobody joins, you can't do anything.
8. you get a curse, but have no remove curse pots because you're not supposed to (and every other situation like this - neutralize poison, remove disease...), your'e screwed

It's poor advice and then some. At the minimum, you should be telling new players how to contribute in a party by being self sufficient.

It's nice that you have nostaligia for the old rpg model of melee, healer, rogue, arcane - but telling people they should play those without being self sufficient is providing them with trouble in their gaming future. It's poor advice, it won't help their enjoyment in the long term.

The game has a future. It doesn't have the one you envision where we're all desperate for healers, and that's a good thing.

[IronClan]

Not to mention that this "random" idea dries up pretty fast when there's only a few iterations of "random." You can design a room with 3 different trap box positions, but as soon as players learn those 3 positions, the trick is done. Not worth spending valuable development time on when it can be better spent figuring out how to expand storage space. Or, you know, fix bugs that have been here for years already.

You guys should check out a game genre known as "rogue-likes" random layouts and traps and whatnot are actually incredibly simple, so much so that they were doable in the 80's when game coding was still in it's infancy. Games like Diablo and DII lasted for YEARS with only a few tiny Dungeons... because they were different every time.

Now I wont disagree that adding certain types of randomness in DDO is probably not possible (procedural generated Dungeons for example), but the game has several examples of semi-random most of which simply need to be expanded on and USED in more than 2 or 3 places.

None of this means that DDO's biggest problem isn't meta gaming, it just means that reducing meta gaming is hard. If they ever bother seeing it as a problem they could certainly tackle it... especially trivial are things like random trap locations (not to be confused with 3 optional places the trap can appear) and random secret doors (which can be as simple as invisible portals, for example: "you feel a slight wind coming from a near by crack" in Tor.

In fact according to them they are making a "Dwarven Fortress" that has 7 levels... if this DOESN'T have random it will be a disaster, as the lack of exploration past the first run through and randomness will lead it to be simply a 7 level version the the House C manufactury, or the "no point in exploring it so no one ever bothers" Underdark ... Imagine Syrianna Conduit Floor times 7 to get to LOB and MA... Yeah bad idea... But if it's got a reason to play and replay it... like +1 loot lever per floor, and great random secrets and loot that can only be found in those secrets... and randomized layouts. Well I wont want to play anything else :)

[Ungood]

This is complete garbage. It is not my job to “turn people on to DDO”. There are people being paid by Turbine and their only job is to recruit and keep people playing. Until they offer me some sort of profit sharing then I could care less if they cannot keep people. It is their job and not yours or mine. Of course I would like the game to succeed, but put the blame where it lies and not just at the vets because you hate their playstyle.

Sorry Vint, it does not work that way.

Either you want it to succeeded and thus will want to be a part of it's success, or you are just apathetic about it and don't care and remain non-involved, or you actively want it to fail and will want to contribute to it's demise.

You can't say you want it to succeed while needing to do so in spite of you.

[Ungood]

I have. It sucks.

It's bad advice to tell people not to be self-sufficient.

Why? Because you couldn't solo? Because you couldn't depend on your party members? Because everyone treated you like **** for not being self-sufficient?

It's bad advice because it sets the group up to crumble like a house a cards once something goes wrong.

Building to be self-sufficient, even if only for "emergency situations" allows for a player to in effect be a hero in DDO, which is a great aspect of this game, the iconic "last man standing and being able to save the day" is a winning part of what made DnD and DDO, a fun games to play.

[Vint]

So we can talk about inevitable decline, and lack of advertisement.
But how should turbine advertise?
"We have an elaborate class system, a dozen classes with enhancement specs, adventures, a working business model that other MMOs copying lately, and the stupidest player base that ruined us. Enjoy!"
In short the above examples are just sad, but despite that, its a continuing trend.
But blaming the community is last years hip. If nobody cared so far, why should we do now?

This is a result of Turbine making the game too easy. I am not the one complaining that the game is easy, but you cannot claim that the game has not been dumbed down. Also, it is not up to me or any other pugger to make sure you have a great day. If you want your “optimal party” or the “perfect dungeon crawl”, go find it. With your attitude and hate toward people that play different than you I could care less if you find it and it results in you quitting. You make your own fun in this game and if you can’t, kick mud.



Ugh, you would expect me to wait 5-10 minutes for you to bother showing up to the quest? Count me quite happy that my IP LFMs prevent people like you from joining. Sheesh.

Exactly. If I am doing 10,30, 50 quests in a day, those 5-10 minutes really add up. If people are not ready when they click on the LFM that is not my fault.

[Teh_Troll]

What's with new/bad players and their sense of entitlement?

You're entitled to nothing.

[Vint]

Sorry Vint, it does not work that way.

Either you want it to succeeded and thus will want to be a part of it's success, or you are just apathetic about it and don't care and remain non-involved, or you actively want it to fail and will want to contribute to it's demise.

You can't say you want it to succeed while needing to do so in spite of you.

When the motto Turbine is us9i9ng is; “Monetize everything and hopefully the big spenders will offset the number of accounts we have lost”. What do you do in this situation? I see this as the real problem, and there is no way to get rid of it. As Chai has said for years, this is the result of P2W. People will leave and the only thing Turbine (really WB) is interested in is the $$$ coming in, not the # of accounts.

If you right and the player attrition is coming because new players are walking away, do not fear as I do not pug until epic levels and then it is with people I know. If you or anyone wants vets to stand in the harbor and take 3 hours to run ww and show people the ropes, good luck. That is not fun to me and if the servers were to go down because I refuse to do that, so be it.

[Teh_Troll]

When the motto Turbine is us9i9ng is; “Monetize everything and hopefully the big spenders will offset the number of accounts we have lost”. What do you do in this situation? I see this as the real problem, and there is no way to get rid of it. As Chai has said for years, this is the result of P2W. People will leave and the only thing Turbine (really WB) is interested in is the $$$ coming in, not the # of accounts..

This is confirmed by a post from a Dev on the "other" forum. Sad but true.

[Vanshilar]

What's with new/bad players and their sense of entitlement?

You're entitled to nothing.

You're mistaken. New/bad players are entitled to everyone else's fun.

I find it difficult to interpret this thread in any other way.

Oh and if you don't provide the fun for them, you're the one personally responsible for the decline of the game.

[taurean430]

Because people don't like having to wait around forever to fill their group just to get started on a quest. I remember, back when I started playing, waiting around for 30 minutes, or even an hour sometimes waiting for a healer or a rogue for some normal quests that were just challenging enough to really require a strong party, and waiting for an hour or more with some regularity to fill a raid missing that last healer (and sometimes any healers), or rogue, or caster, or tank, then down the road waiting for that healer, rogue, or caster to fill out an epic LFM. Occasionally you'd wait for a strong melee, too, but that was rare, since melees are more prevalent (owing to being easier to get into and play, with less of a learning curve, and not quite so heavily dependent upon having the best gear).

Because people shouldn't be a burden on their fellow players. What reason is there to suggest a fighter or barbarian should be running around from fight to fight without ever healing themselves, whether or not there is a "healer" in the group or not?

Because self-sufficiency not only makes soloing easier, but it also makes grouping easier, and can result in you saving the day when things go sideways, rather than the whole quest failing, or you sitting on your soulstone watching someone else save the day.

Depending on party members is all well and good when they are fulfilling a role you cannot, and you're complementing each others' skill sets, but not being self-sufficient doesn't fall into this category--as a fighter, you want a caster along to lay down CC, or a rogue to disable traps, and you want a healer to see you through the tough fights, but if you're relying on that healer to babysit you through the whole quest, all you're doing is dictating that that player bend their game experience to support your own, rather than doing what they would like to do.


All of this, yes.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, especially the bolded portion.

Being a burden on your fellow players, with the expectation that other people diminish their gaming experience is what generated many of these problems to begin with. Healing builds wouldn't have declined in pugging without all of the help it got from selfish and manytimes abusive players with selfish expectations.

A self-sufficient character, even partially so, causes less to no strain on the party in *every* party regardless of the content.

A character with no self sufficiency drains the resources, time, and enjoyment of others in *every* party they group with.

The ship sailed. What used to be a pocket of the game population's preferred method of play is now popular. Funny thing is I still see teamwork all the time when pugging. This is not a dead concept. What is dying, if not already dead, is the notion that I am going to join your party and it's up to *you* to ensure I am kept alive and at optimal effeciency.

Frankly put, the concept couldn't have reached it's deathbed soon enough.

[Scuddy]

The TL;DR point of this overly long post is the following:


Agreed, TLDR

[Scrag]

Please cite the specific things in the game and/or the DDO store to incentivize players to be obnoxious jerks.
....
But, by being an obnoxious vet complaining about noobs isn’t going to retain players. Five years down the line you’ll be the best player in a dying game. If you can’t see the obvious dead-end in that scenario, I really don’t know what to tell you…

Elite bb streaks and +50% exp for mish complete is an obnoxiously excessive incentive.

Agree on second statement.

Being a recent total noob, it was difficult finding people to group with that were accepting of me being a total noob from 1 to 12. Yes, I gave up that char, only to come back to her months later, after the enh pass. She never ended up "awesomesawse", but I was totally satisfied with how she did come out in the end; She could trap ee relatively well. Since then I have had characters (excluding my totally awesomesawse shurimonk) that have been totally middle of the road. However, since they at least pull middle-of-the-pack efficiency, people have not bothered me. My biggest advantage has been trying to find players of like mentality and bonding with them, and my guild, which is totally relaxed and fun.

Sadly, those players have all but vanished from my friends list. I have on average 2 friends on at a time from my list, and of course they are all wildly different levels, so grouping with them can be difficult. :|

[Noctus]

...
I said it elsewhere recently: PUGging is hard.



Turbine should get rid of a Death Penalty that hits all players in a group. This penalty punishes you for the behavior of other players and is a disincentive to open up a groupspot for pugging, where chances are a not so experienced player will join in with a much greater probability to die, then compared to your guild/channelmates, thus costing you XP for being pug-friendly.

It would change much if they simply personalised it, instead of hitting all group members with it.

[SilentTooLong]

My first build was a Elf Paladin (it worked well in pnp) and I ran back and forth from S/B and thf. It took forever, to get to 20 and it was expensive, my gear sucked and most people where WAY better than me. 12 past lives and 5 Epic past lives later, my gear is decent and some people are WAY better than me. I have played with pure rogues who could not trap and 18?/2 rog that could do EH traps easily. I see LFMs that say BYOH, be self sufficient, Elite for BB, don't suck, etc. Some people are flat out jerks, I have been in Abbott raids that people state are training raids and we fail 3 times in a row, some people rage quit and others stick it out and learn a little bit about the raid, those moments are few and far between. People get ****ed when someone smashes a crystal and stops those 2 chests in Shroud, I have known people that are blocked from joining groups because this happened once or the need 400hp to join. I can solo on En/Eh, but would prefer to run Eh in groups. Some people will say that my play style sucks because I have all these past lives and can not Solo EE. We also have a community that praises EE solo builds and soloing raids. When I played CoH/CoV they had enemies that required small armies to defeat and characters had pretty well defined roles, that game died because it kinda forced team play. So once the numbers began to dip it became harder to play, rinse and repeat. At this point Turbine might want to combine some more servers and adjust the trainer quests (Korthos and Harbor).

I rarely bother to post on these tyrannical forums anymore but this statement smacks of ignorance to the point I felt compelled.

CoH/CoV or simply CoX to those who actually played it, did not DIE! It was murdered by its parent company NC Soft for absolutely no sane nor sound business approach. The year CoX was killed, its earnings for the company where among the highest profits Paragon Development Studios had ever brought in. The games stable population on its two main servers Freedom and Virtue where well over 30,000 players at nearly any given time of the day. It did not FORCE roles on players, as despite the arch type nature, each and every power set combination with the right set bonuses and collection of temp powers could transcend their box. The fact was its character creation and building was far better developed and possessed of a depth far greater then DDOs because as many are right to point out here in DDO all characters end up playing the exact same if build well.

In CoX this was far from the case. I had 4 different capped scrappers for example, each of whom played very differently both in how they dealt damage and avoided/recovered from it. I had a blaster who could out kill and out survive entire teams of tanks and typical blasters. And it was a game where a well created and played Offender could solo the mightiest things in the game with time, timing, and talent.

It was and will always remain to me and many others THE MMO that was TOO GOOD and killed because its existence made its own parent company uncomfortable with releasing new games like GW2 a game I had long looked forward to, eagerly planned to play, had preordered, and never ever have touched due to the actions of NC SOFT concerning another of their MMOs. Never again will I invest in nor have faith in ANY MMO. I still own and play old PC games from a decade ago that cost me 20-60 bucks. Games like DDO or CoX and all the time and money I put into them once taken from me are gone forever and leave bitter regret alone.

Virtue for life!

[SilentTooLong]

This is an incredibly good point, that no one talks about enough. New players want to explore and find things... they don't want to find out that there's nothing good behind any secret door... (this is a problem of game/map design and meta gaming). They don't want to be told "optionals are a waste of time, better to repeat the quest over and over and ignore them". They most definitely don't want to say "I'm new", "where is this quest", "can you share I don't know where the quest giver person is". They don't want to cost the TR guy 10% XP, they don't want to appologize when it happens anyway. They don't want to miss their trap saves when they follow everyone else "running through the traps"... they don't want to not know where the trap box is located, they don't want to be told "over here n00b, search where I'm standing"... etc. etc. etc.

DDO's main failures outside of basing the engine on FPS skill-set (limiting their appeal to largely mouse click movement based RPG players), are meta gaming as a core principle of the games design (they should have had random stuff built into the engine from the start) and the hostility to new players that this meta gaming breeds... and then a few years later compounding this problem by pushing veteran players into constant contact with new players. HARMING BOTH in the process.

Now if there was less stuff for Vet's to lord over new players heads it wouldn't be such an issue (less meta gaming).

Imagine:
Secrets are always in unknown locations, and hide AWESOME LOOT then everyone wants to find them... even if it takes going slower.
NO ONE "knows it" because it's largely random generated layouts.
No one runs through traps because they are random located and likely to kill/wipe you most of the time.
Optional objectives are awesome XP and loot, but really dangerous, and also randomized location/variety
No one knows the trap box location... it's near the unknown location of the trap after all.
-10% penalty (intended to promote team work) is not needed, because players want to work as a team because the lack of meta gaming makes that the most effective strategy.
Quest location and Quest giver are 100% optional, as joining the LFM bestows the quest, and clicking the "travel to quest" option gets you to the location.

Players can indeed help DDO, but we need help helping, and the game could be a lot more friendly by just meeting more of the expectations of Dungeons and Dragons.


Going to agree with this one largely as it hits the nail on the head imo. DDO is just too predictable. once you play a given bit of content a few times it loses all its teeth unless you make a flavor build that lacks the utility belt to tackle the myriad of problems. Static maps, static traps, static mob types, static spell books for mob casters, static mob placement, static everything to the point that all the few bits of randomness like loot drop or rare encounters does is **** off and cause frustration because they are randomness that force grinding the otherwise static content.

[SilentTooLong]

Why? Because you couldn't solo? Because you couldn't depend on your party members? Because everyone treated you like **** for not being self-sufficient?

If so, then this game has no future. And it doesn't deserve one.

Yep head on the nail here to. The fact is this games very foundation is so flawed its entire existence was a waste, and should have been aborted before it came into being. While DDO may have had some potential, its grown to old, and to weak to hope to become what it could of and should of been.

This is not the case of Carmen needing to get back in shape, this is a case of if carmen has never been a hero of the lance and just a tavern keeper trying to get ready to adventure for the first time at 50. DDO was NEVER that good of a game, always too easy to meta game and meant to be played on repeat mode every thing 3 times over at least. Hell spot has been a joke skill since year one to trappers for this very reason. Its expected you KNOW where the traps are so quickly by the typical example of the player base the idea of needing a spot skill to be aware of them is seen as gimping your toon when those points could be better spent in swim for the Crucible.

[Vellrad]

What's with new/bad players and their sense of entitlement?

You're entitled to nothing.

Not true, they're entitled to heal me.
Not to hjeal youh, because, they need to deserve it.

[Chai]

You're mistaken. New/bad players are entitled to everyone else's fun.

I find it difficult to interpret this thread in any other way.

Oh and if you don't provide the fun for them, you're the one personally responsible for the decline of the game.

Its already well beyond that point. They can now buy your fun straight cash in the DDO store, and have been able to do so for quite some time.

[Teh_Troll]

Its already well beyond that point. They can now buy your fun straight cash in the DDO store, and have been able to do so for quite some time.

And from my ever-growing pile of Astral Shards . . . can I say I'm selling fun?

[SilentTooLong]

Sorry Vint, it does not work that way.

Either you want it to succeeded and thus will want to be a part of it's success, or you are just apathetic about it and don't care and remain non-involved, or you actively want it to fail and will want to contribute to it's demise.

You can't say you want it to succeed while needing to do so in spite of you.

OH OH ME ME ME!( waves hand when you say or you actively want it to fail)

Down with the tyrants who take our money but wish to keep us silent sheep.

[Lallajulia]

what players can do, is to play. ddo its not my business. devs should think about it.
despite that, i can agree with some statements.
ddo is multiplayer. and i soloed few lives. and that brought me to the border where i almost lost interest of play it.
if solo, then i prefer skyrim or something other where exploration freedom is presented and mixed with rpg game mechanic.

but now, again few lives i pugging all the time. that means if im online and questing, lfm is open almost all the time for everyone at level, except few quests where im too lazy drag new ppl trough. but its only few of hundreds in compendum.

so.

pugging ofc is punishing, especially for group leader, because of time consuming, tell sending, warning, healing, de-posioning, de-cursing... you name it.

but.

pugging also give me more fun.

and.

that endless xp grinding is acceptable as far as it contains fun element.

and.

in game friends and buddies are the most good thing in this game.

there is one thing i really, really wish about all this - NERF MONK CLASS. not because of me or whatever, because of these people who play anything and everything as monks. they make fighter, but play monk, they roll sorc but play as monk, they make rog, but swing fists. and for the all good sake on this poor planet... they... its even hard to say that, but ill try... they roll wizard. wizard. and again swing they fists. painly picture i must say. yes, yes, its all matter of taste, but its nonsense if 2/3 of any raid are some kind of monks. its not anymore about taste or shmaiste. its about balance. and if u closely think about it as a whole, there is direct connection between class balance and this post theme. its not only connection ofc, but situation atm is so unbalanced that 2 pally levels and these monk splashes affect every aspect of game. even my loved wizards. you can not just give seven million hit points to trash mob and name it endgame and expect good result. result is broken balance, because there naturally can be only very few solutions in very specific situations. its the very nature of things even outside out these imaginary game worlds.

[Vint]

OH OH ME ME ME!( waves hand when you say or you actively want it to fail)

Down with the tyrants who take our money but wish to keep us silent sheep.

A dev already made the comment that WB could care less about losing players as long as they keep the big spenders spending. Now tell me who wants this game to survive? It is pretty clear what the priority is and it is definately not retention or getting new players. This is not my words, but words from someone at the business.


People can keep their head buried in the sand and say P2W is not bad for the game, but the evidence is pretty clear.

[Singular]

It's bad advice because it sets the group up to crumble like a house a cards once something goes wrong.

Building to be self-sufficient, even if only for "emergency situations" allows for a player to in effect be a hero in DDO, which is a great aspect of this game, the iconic "last man standing and being able to save the day" is a winning part of what made DnD and DDO, a fun games to play.

Yes, absolutely - you said it much more succinctly than I did. Thank you.

Who in their right mind would tell people 'don't be self sufficient. Someone else will take care of you?'

We have but to look at history to see how well that works.

[IronClan]

This is confirmed by a post from a Dev on the "other" forum. Sad but true.

Which one of Majmal's 33 posts he has made over there are you referring to? The only one I can think of is one about the API where he said login activity isn't everything and the things they've done "have worked wonderfully" That's hardly a slam or indictment. Can you PM me the one you're thinking of?

[Singular]

This is confirmed by a post from a Dev on the "other" forum. Sad but true.

Wow. What? Can you expand on this?


Its already well beyond that point. They can now buy your fun straight cash in the DDO store, and have been able to do so for quite some time.

This is a ridiculous statement - unless the person you are writing to is super worried that someone else will level faster, tr more, have mana or health pots, raise themselves when they die via cake, or whatever. But no one really cares that someone else is buying in-game cheats for their own character. At least, no one I know.

But I can imagine that, if you did spend all your money on advancing your toon, instead of leveling it yourself, and you never accepted defeat, empty spell points or empty health, then the game would get boring. At this point, you might as well be just watching your character slowly level over time, and reading it's conquests, like watching grass grow, except that instead of fertilizer, you tossed time and money at it.

[SilentTooLong]

A dev already made the comment that WB could care less about losing players as long as they keep the big spenders spending. Now tell me who wants this game to survive? It is pretty clear what the priority is and it is definately not retention or getting new players. This is not my words, but words from someone at the business.


People can keep their head buried in the sand and say P2W is not bad for the game, but the evidence is pretty clear.

Indeed. My only argument ever with say someone like good ol Chai here is not that P2W wasnt happening, nor bad, but that the game was ever actually good at doing well anything. Since launch this game has been cursed by static stagnant content that only encouraged META gaming to the extreme. In fact it was long before the micro transaction store was added that things like end rewards from chains like Deleras Tomb became randomized to try and further stretch out content already being blitzed through by one month old vets. My first toon on DDO based on an old 3E PnP character was a 6 ranger 2 pal 2 rogue. awesome saves, evasion, a good mix of melee and ranged. I also knew what kinds of weapon enchantment comboes where worth having and started hording like a great wyrm. The first time I faced vellah shortly after VoN was added I went at her armed with an entire collection of icy burst adamantine weapons with either PG or in the case of my bow icy burst of dragon bane with an elf RR on it. She felt easy to me and I didnt get the issues so many had for many months, until I first began reading the forums and relising how stupid and lazy many where, wanting to be warriors not carrying a bag full of specialized weapons for example.

See while chai will argue it was the era of FTP and addition of mircro transactions that brought about flaws. I will always content the flaws started with the foundation that we are expected to repeat completely static content over and over on a single character.

[IronClan]

Its already well beyond that point. They can now buy your fun straight cash in the DDO store, and have been able to do so for quite some time.

This is what I'm talking about this thread isn't remotely about "p2w", not even tangentially.

Tell me why people shouldn't just start reporting when you start in like this?


A dev already made the comment that WB could care less about losing players as long as they keep the big spenders spending. Now tell me who wants this game to survive? It is pretty clear what the priority is and it is definately not retention or getting new players. This is not my words, but words from someone at the business.


People can keep their head buried in the sand and say P2W is not bad for the game, but the evidence is pretty clear.

*facepalm*

[ulgabi]

This is a result of Turbine making the game too easy. I am not the one complaining that the game is easy, but you cannot claim that the game has not been dumbed down.

In what way was the game dumbed down? Do you need to click less? Push less buttons? If you mean toons have been buffed too much, than probably yes.
The rest of your post had no connection to mine so I just ignored.


In general: I see everybody has his excuse, and all is well. Of course if you refuse to wait 5-10 min to fill a party and go solo than everybody else will do so and suddenly ddo became a single player game. Casual players left, lfm is deserted, now even new players have to solo the lower lvls because they can't find a group. And we see all the powergamers, elitist jerks and vets on a sinking ship cursing bad/casual/f2p for ruining their beloved game. Wish I could paint.

[Teh_Troll]

Which one of Majmal's 33 posts he has made over there are you referring to? The only one I can think of is one about the API where he said login activity isn't everything and the things they've done "have worked wonderfully" That's hardly a slam or indictment. Can you PM me the one you're thinking of?

Doom is overrated.
# of players is not everything. There are so many other things to measure.

And it makes sense, if your player numbers drop that's fine as long as revenues doesn't take a hit.

[IronClan]

Doom is overrated.
# of players is not everything. There are so many other things to measure.

And it makes sense, if your player numbers drop that's fine as long as revenues doesn't take a hit.

Yeah thought so. That's not confirmation of anything. It's just an ambiguous statement. One which you chose to portray as MajMal slamming WB by "confirming" that they don't care if the game loses players, so long as big spenders spend. That post like his others is dripping with positivity and not a hint of cynical anti corporate "confirmation" of anything at all.

[Vint]

In what way was the game dumbed down? Do you need to click less? Push less buttons? If you mean toons have been buffed too much, than probably yes.
The rest of your post had no connection to mine so I just ignored.


In general: I see everybody has his excuse, and all is well. Of course if you refuse to wait 5-10 min to fill a party and go solo than everybody else will do so and suddenly ddo became a single player game. Casual players left, lfm is deserted, now even new players have to solo the lower lvls because they can't find a group. And we see all the powergamers, elitist jerks and vets on a sinking ship cursing bad/casual/f2p for ruining their beloved game. Wish I could paint.

Turbine got rid of the death penalty, they added casual setting, they added hirelings, power creep, and the most detrimental is that they allowed everyone the ability to self heal. This is just a short listt of how this game has become easier. I understand MMO, but it was Turbine that made this game easier and they made it to where you can solo.

Sure players could be nicer to one another, but the ball is ultimately in Turbines court. They are in a bad situation. Make the game harder so people have to group (this would likely run off many) or ride it out and hope new players don't quit.

I do not hate new people, but if given the choice of going slow and being a mentor (not fun for me at all) or seeing no new people, the choice is clear. I play to have fun (not going out of my way to grief) and if you or anyone else cannot find enjoyment it is either yours or Turbines fault for not appealing to you.

[Teh_Troll]

Yeah thought so. That's not confirmation of anything. It's just an ambiguous statement. One which you chose to portray as MajMal slamming WB by "confirming" that they don't care if the game loses players, so long as big spenders spend. That post like his others is dripping with positivity and not a hint of cynical anti corporate "confirmation" of anything at all.

LOL . . . what "other ways" are there besides how much people spend? And it should be positive, if they made money that's a good thing, that's what a business is supposed to do.

Nice try, you can do better.

[Chai]

Yeah thought so. That's not confirmation of anything. It's just an ambiguous statement. One which you chose to portray as MajMal slamming WB by "confirming" that they don't care if the game loses players, so long as big spenders spend. That post like his others is dripping with positivity and not a hint of cynical anti corporate "confirmation" of anything at all.

It doesnt need to be a confirmation on its own. No one thing is a confirmation, but when all indicators point to the same thing and add up to the same conclusion, the fact that people are still attempting to deny it is the only thing baffling at this point. People are still trying to explain off each individual indicator as its own entity like they arnt related, when anyone analyzing the situation objectively understands their relation clearly.

[Teh_Troll]

Sure players could be nicer to one another, but the ball is ultimately in Turbines court. They are in a bad situation. Make the game harder so people have to group (this would likely run off many) or ride it out and hope new players don't quit.


Why are people assuming it's the new players who are quitting?

The "new player" "Korthos Army" guilds on my server are flush with people. Take a look in the Who list, you'll see scores of them on at any given time. It's the vet's guilds that are done.

A new player can still find tons of magic here. Us old and cynical bastages not so much. Heck, the stuff we complain about they won't even notice.

So are we all assuming it's the n00bs leaving? I'm gonna call BS on that.

[Chai]

Why are people assuming it's the new players who are quitting?

The "new player" "Korthos Army" guilds on my server are flush with people. Take a look in the Who list, you'll see scores of them on at any given time. It's the vet's guilds that are done.

A new player can still find tons of magic here. Us old and cynical bastages not so much. Heck, the stuff we complain about they won't even notice.

So are we all assuming it's the n00bs leaving? I'm gonna call BS on that.

Because it was posted by a dev that this is the case and their lack of ability to deal with undead was the single biggest item in the exit surveys that needed to be fixed.

I almost got through typing that last sentence with a straight face. Almost.

[Dalsheel]

+1 to the OP. Thanks for taking the time to write all these. Most have been on my mind as well for some time now. Thank you.

[Nestroy]

(...)Sure players could be nicer to one another, but the ball is ultimately in Turbines court. They are in a bad situation. Make the game harder so people have to group (this would likely run off many) or ride it out and hope new players don't quit. (...)

Why is everybody assuming DDO needs to get harder? With the notable exception for dungeon scaling where soloing gives a boon, to enforce grouping it´s better to use incentives instead of artificial obstacles.

Grouping is disdained generally because if somebody knows the game, grouping costs time and therefore ultimately XP. And Soloing is an alternative. So, the very solution that comes to mind as a no-brainer is to give incentives to actually group. There are several solutions that would do the trick and we should discuss them. It´s better than to stick with "make DDO harder".

[Teh_Troll]

Why is everybody assuming DDO needs to get harder? With the notable exception for dungeon scaling where soloing gives a boon, to enforce grouping it´s better to use incentives instead of artificial obstacles.

Grouping is disdained generally because if somebody knows the game, grouping costs time and therefore ultimately XP. And Soloing is an alternative. So, the very solution that comes to mind as a no-brainer is to give incentives to actually group. There are several solutions that would do the trick and we should discuss them. It´s better than to stick with "make DDO harder".

DDO getting harder is a dumb idea. It won't encourage grouping, it'll kill the game.

Look, people just have bad ideas, this is one of them. That's why you can't trust people, the warm-blood fouls up their thought process. Come to teh_troll for all your guidance.

[Wipey]

Why are people assuming it's the new players who are quitting?


I was actually thinking that. There are plenty of unguilded newbies in Harbour or Market, it's the old farts that are leaving / less active.
The game must still be fantastic for new folks that wouldn't give up and seek some info / advice, again "geared vets" have basically nothing to do.
Except ETR, ..for what ?

[Chai]

Why is everybody assuming DDO needs to get harder? With the notable exception for dungeon scaling where soloing gives a boon, to enforce grouping it´s better to use incentives instead of artificial obstacles.

Grouping is disdained generally because if somebody knows the game, grouping costs time and therefore ultimately XP. And Soloing is an alternative. So, the very solution that comes to mind as a no-brainer is to give incentives to actually group. There are several solutions that would do the trick and we should discuss them. It´s better than to stick with "make DDO harder".

Depends. The game should at least have somewhat of a learning curve. Most of the learning curve stuff was removed.

Making DDO harder and making DDO less forgiving of bad play are two different things. Example: Curses used to be perminent until removed. Most people learned to buy a few potions of curse removal and keep tham handy, but there was always a few who sat in the tavern and moaned in general chat about how needing to remove debuffs with plat cost consumibles was bad game design. This enforced a learning curve however. Nowdays its common to have people at epic levels ask the healer to remove their curses. The game wasnt harder when the learning curve was in effect, it was less forgiving to those who refused to learn.

[Chai]

This is what I'm talking about this thread isn't remotely about "p2w", not even tangentially.

Tell me why people shouldn't just start reporting when you start in like this?



*facepalm*

That is what those items have in common. Im calling a spade a spade, and doing so is on topic.

Do you have anything on topic youd like to add, because im not interested in the personal discussion you will attempt to turn this into.

[ulgabi]

Why are people assuming it's the new players who are quitting?

The "new player" "Korthos Army" guilds on my server are flush with people. Take a look in the Who list, you'll see scores of them on at any given time. It's the vet's guilds that are done.

A new player can still find tons of magic here. Us old and cynical bastages not so much. Heck, the stuff we complain about they won't even notice.

So are we all assuming it's the n00bs leaving? I'm gonna call BS on that.

Because that wouldn't be a problem. Old people die, others hardly notice.
I don't believe in a static player base keeping up an MMO. Sure it works for a grocery store in a small town, but not on the internet, and not with WB.
Noobs have the potential of becoming VIPs or at least premium. This could keep up a game if there is a steady constant supply of fresh noobs. A few thousand vets? Don't make me laugh.
So the problem is, the noobs refuse to become VIPs and premiums, and not because f2p is so easy-peasy.
This ship is going down with the vets like you blaming everybody else.

[Ungood]

When the motto Turbine is us9i9ng is; “Monetize everything and hopefully the big spenders will offset the number of accounts we have lost”. What do you do in this situation? I see this as the real problem, and there is no way to get rid of it. As Chai has said for years, this is the result of P2W. People will leave and the only thing Turbine (really WB) is interested in is the $$$ coming in, not the # of accounts.

If you right and the player attrition is coming because new players are walking away, do not fear as I do not pug until epic levels and then it is with people I know. If you or anyone wants vets to stand in the harbor and take 3 hours to run ww and show people the ropes, good luck. That is not fun to me and if the servers were to go down because I refuse to do that, so be it.

LOL. Sorry, but again, it does not work that way Vint.

You can't vent at a company about not caring about something you don't care about either. I mean really, maybe they know they can't depend on their 'established player base' to help retain new players, which is a crying shame really, but then again, you would rather see the game die then to lift a finger to increase player population, and I would wager, you're not alone.

So, what's left for Turbine, their "player base" which is what is supposed to make the game feel welcome/active/social, is a apathetic to near hostile to new players, as such Turbine is pretty much forced to depend on those who do remain to keep the game going. That means, finding ways to make YOU pay what a new person could have been paying.

But in your own words: So Be it.

[Chai]

Because that wouldn't be a problem. Old people die, others hardly notice.
I don't believe in a static player base keeping up an MMO. Sure it works for a grocery store in a small town, but not on the internet, and not with WB.
Noobs have the potential of becoming VIPs or at least premium. This could keep up a game if there is a steady constant supply of fresh noobs. A few thousand vets? Don't make me laugh.
So the problem is, the noobs refuse to become VIPs and premiums, and not because f2p is so easy-peasy.
This ship is going down with the vets like you blaming everybody else.

The problem with this is the monetization model they are leveraging is a model where the few thousand vets pay to bypass specific barriers while playing in a systematic time sync designed so that one form of advancement (xp) is not synergistic with earning another form of advancement (eTR heart). Turbine must think those few thousand vets are worth it, or they would not have created another entire system to monetize that demographic.

Ive been pushing for content focus for a long time now over monetizing one specific group, in part because it creates more fun for all, and can be monetized for all as well.

[Ungood]

Why are people assuming it's the new players who are quitting?

The "new player" "Korthos Army" guilds on my server are flush with people. Take a look in the Who list, you'll see scores of them on at any given time. It's the vet's guilds that are done.

A new player can still find tons of magic here. Us old and cynical bastages not so much. Heck, the stuff we complain about they won't even notice.

So are we all assuming it's the n00bs leaving? I'm gonna call BS on that.

Nope, look at the store man.. none of that stuff is "new player" focused, it all about gouging the vets, a new player would not be buying exp pots, otto's stone, or anything like that, Even long term VIP sub is all about the vets.

For people to buy most of this stuff they need to get past the vetting process, they need to feel that this game is where the action is at, it's where the fun is.

The trick here is, what keeps a player around for a month? what keeps them playing for 6 months? What would make someone coming in the door and think "Humm I could stay here for a year"

[Chai]

LOL. Sorry, but again, it does not work that way Vint.

You can't vent at a company about not caring about something you don't care about either. I mean really, maybe they know they can't depend on their 'established player base' to help retain new players, which is a crying shame really, but then again, you would rather see the game die then to lift a finger to increase player population, and I would wager, you're not alone.

So, what's left for Turbine, their "player base" which is what is supposed to make the game feel welcome/active/social, is a apathetic to near hostile to new players, as such Turbine is pretty much forced to depend on those who do remain to keep the game going. That means, finding ways to make YOU pay what a new person could have been paying.

But in your own words: So Be it.

The truck drivers could care less about sports cars, but the company who makes both better care about sports cars, as they have a demographic of folks they can sell those to as well. It wasnt too long ago that you were all up in here talking about how it would be no big deal if the powergamers were never catered to again, and now youre here talking about someone elses apathetic behavior toward specific groups of players?

In order to create a situation where new players want to stay, they need to have more than a fraction of their quest zones be current, drop current loot, and appeal to folks who are new. Much of the widely accepted and most played in content, is over 5 years old, and much of it is neglected, as more and more resources are allocated to create new monetization systems geared toward long time players, putting them into a time sync situation with the ability to pay to bypass some of the timesync.

[Chai]

Nope, look at the store man.. none of that stuff is "new player" focused, it all about gouging the vets, a new player would not be buying exp pots, otto's stone, or anything like that, Even long term VIP sub is all about the vets.

For people to buy most of this stuff they need to get past the vetting process, they need to feel that this game is where the action is at, it's where the fun is.

The trick here is, what keeps a player around for a month? what keeps them playing for 6 months? What would make someone coming in the door and think "Humm I could stay here for a year"

Or Turbine needs to focus on monetizing the newer players as well. Content focus is where its at. If you joined a game and were around for a few weeks, and you saw that most of the monetization was catering to a completely different demographic than yourself (the new guy) while the vets are catered to more and more, is that going to make you want to hang around?

[IronClan]

LOL . . . what "other ways" are there besides how much people spend? And it should be positive, if they made money that's a good thing, that's what a business is supposed to do.

Nice try, you can do better.

Interesting so it should be a positive, but "confirming WB doesn't care about losing players" doesn't sound positive does it?

So you do you suppose that Majmal loves him some greedy corporate cynicism? He feels that it's "wonderful" that WB doesn't care about losing players?

Here's the full quote by the way; Troll didn't want to quote the whole thing because it makes his statement look even worse:

"Doom is overrated.
# of players is not everything. There are so many other things to measure. There are some great articles on Gamasutra that do a great job of showing what F2P models look at. We are a hybrid, so we live in the old way and new way of looking at server/player data. For an old game that just basically had a 'replacement' MMO come out last year, we did wonderfully."

SO clearly he is saying: Me and WB we did wonderfully, we're losing players but the wales are lining our pockets while we squeeze the game dry of profitability *greedy maniacal laughter*.

OR perhaps, he's saying: under the circumstances with a major new D&D MMO (NWO) just out, we did better than anyone had a right to expect? Oh yeah that's what he's saying isn't it? It's amazing what happens when you don't leave context AND most of his quote out :cool: but then we should expect no less from a troll eh ;)

[sephiroth1084]

Off topic but last week I joined an IP gianthold quest. Just as I entered the quest, literally, the guy completed it. So I pop in and within 2 seconds I see the quest completion pop up showing I got 15k xp. lol
That's why, when you join, you ask how far in they are. I do all the time, and if they tell me they are past a certain point, I say, "Thanks, but I'll wait for the next run," or, "Thanks, but I didn't know you were so far along. Good luck." That point can be far enough in that by the time I get there the quest will almost be done, as in your case, or it could be far enough in that I've missed too many worthwhile optionals (as in the case of something like VoN 3 or Wiz-King).

In what way was the game dumbed down? In so many ways. The biggest way that deals with this topic is Dungeon Scaling. Before DS, running a quest solo was absolutely more difficult than running it in a group, because grouping made the quest easier, since the only thing that changed in that case was how much force you were applying to the same challenge. Now, however, adding more people to a quest can make it harder, because additional people cause monsters to deal more damage, have more HP, AC, to-hit, and saves; your Vicious damage does more to you, traps hit harder and have higher save DCs; more monsters spawn, and the risk to individual characters goes up. So, whereas before, the risk to each character was the same whether you had 1 person in the group or 6, now the risk is lower with 1 person than it is with 6, so if you're playing a strong, capable character, or you're just a good player, you're often better off soloing or short-manning, because it's entirely possible otherwise to add a player to the group who doesn't account for as much of a positive swing in overall group effectiveness as Dungeon Scaling accounts for a negative swing in danger.

The game was changed specifically to make soloing and short-manning easier, to attract and support new players, and it discourages grouped play in a way that nothing else in DDO ever has.

That the devs then tacked on an enormous XP burden with TR--they're most enduring "endgame"--and new vs. Vets dividers like Bravery Bonus just exacerbated the issue.


In general: I see everybody has his excuse, and all is well. Of course if you refuse to wait 5-10 min to fill a party and go solo than everybody else will do so and suddenly ddo became a single player game. Casual players left, lfm is deserted, now even new players have to solo the lower lvls because they can't find a group. And we see all the powergamers, elitist jerks and vets on a sinking ship cursing bad/casual/f2p for ruining their beloved game. Wish I could paint.The casual/f2p player didn't ruin the game, Turbine's shift in philosophy to cater specifically to that player did. Before Dungeon Scaling, few people soloed except for a challenge, or because they really couldn't group (for myriad reasons), because having more players was always a good thing, even if one or two weren't very good (a few specific quests withstanding). Post-DS, that is no longer the case, and I see many many more people soloing.

Why did they introduce DS? Well, first, because waiting for a healer, rogue, or <insert other specific party role> for a long time, instead of questing, had always been a major complaint in DDO, and, second, because they saw how many other MMOs functioned, in particular WoW, where many players spend most of their time running objectives solo. Thus, we get changes like DS, and casual difficulty, and hirelings.

Nice of you to place blame on the vets, though. Obviously, long-term players are evil, vile creatures bent on destruction on all that is good and fun. None of them/us stuck around playing a dying game because they/we enjoyed and cared enough about it to support it even through nearly year-long content droughts and major bugs and server issues.


Because it was posted by a dev that this is the case and their lack of ability to deal with undead was the single biggest item in the exit surveys that needed to be fixed.

I almost got through typing that last sentence with a straight face. Almost.

Well, how many jaded vets filled out exit surveys? How many newer players cared enough to do so? How many complained about things that are essential to DDO (like the complex character building system)? That last was obviously a major issue, because we received the "solution" to it in the form of character paths.

But, yeah, we've known for a long time that Turbine isn't very good at taking a pulse, or interpreting it, or finding a realistic and effective solution.

[Vint]

LOL. Sorry, but again, it does not work that way Vint.

You can't vent at a company about not caring about something you don't care about either. I mean really, maybe they know they can't depend on their 'established player base' to help retain new players, which is a crying shame really, but then again, you would rather see the game die then to lift a finger to increase player population, and I would wager, you're not alone.

So, what's left for Turbine, their "player base" which is what is supposed to make the game feel welcome/active/social, is a apathetic to near hostile to new players, as such Turbine is pretty much forced to depend on those who do remain to keep the game going. That means, finding ways to make YOU pay what a new person could have been paying.

But in your own words: So Be it.

Not once did I post that I hate new players nor do I go out of my way to grief them. It is up to Turbine to keep people playing.

As you stated, it is Turbine driving the bus and they have to make money anyway they can. The problem is that they could care less about retaining players as long as they keep adding P2W and the whales keep spending, they are happy. I wholeheartedly am against this, but they can go in whatever direction they like. Just because I do not support their system does not mean I want the game to die. It means that they need to come up with better ideas and if they are not willing to invest to keep people around then once again, it is not my problem.

I really do love this game, but I am not going to support Turbine if this is the direction they are going to take.

[Vint]

Why is everybody assuming DDO needs to get harder? With the notable exception for dungeon scaling where soloing gives a boon, to enforce grouping it´s better to use incentives instead of artificial obstacles..

I am not arguing that they need to make the game harder, but you have many people that are set in their ways and are happy to just stay in guild, channel, with their few friends so Turbine would have to make it a hell of an incentive to want to pug. Even If this did encourage pugging you will still see the same old “know it, IP, I hate you” LFM’s so what are you really helping?

[Chai]

Interesting so it should be a positive, but "confirming WB doesn't care about losing players" doesn't sound positive does it?

So you do you suppose that Majmal loves him some greedy corporate cynicism? He feels that it's "wonderful" that WB doesn't care about losing players?

Here's the full quote by the way; Troll didn't want to quote the whole thing because it makes his statement look even worse:

"Doom is overrated.
# of players is not everything. There are so many other things to measure. There are some great articles on Gamasutra that do a great job of showing what F2P models look at. We are a hybrid, so we live in the old way and new way of looking at server/player data. For an old game that just basically had a 'replacement' MMO come out last year, we did wonderfully."

SO clearly he is saying: Me and WB we did wonderfully, we're losing players but the wales are lining our pockets while we squeeze the game dry of profitability *greedy maniacal laughter*.

OR perhaps, he's saying: under the circumstances with a major new D&D MMO (NWO) just out, we did better than anyone had a right to expect? Oh yeah that's what he's saying isn't it? It's amazing what happens when you don't leave context AND most of his quote out :cool: but then we should expect no less from a troll eh ;)

How much of that "doing wonderfully" is due to the fail that NW turned into?

BTW, if you think player attitudes are poor over here, play that game a few months. Youll think we are saints. The first time you get out of line with another community member they will report you for spam on all of their freebie accounts, and youll get a 24 hour chat ban from every single one of their games and forums due to an automated system being in place with no human supervision whatsoever.

[Vint]

Interesting so it should be a positive, but "confirming WB doesn't care about losing players" doesn't sound positive does it?

Trying to bait people into speaking of other places will not work. What was said was obvious (if you know where to look) and it is clear the intentions despite it not working into your agenda. I will not post again to you as I am not going to get this thread or myself in trouble.

[Gremmlynn]

Well? Why not? Does it cause you a moment of terror to think of not being self-sufficient? Does it cause you to shudder as badly as if I suggested not doing a min/max build?
Yeah, it goes contrary to everything the 'leets say, but there are still a few people who play and have fun that way (though, they probably don't post on the forums), the main point is that it would encourage people to play as groups. Because the game lacks for things to do while standing around waiting for a group with all the right pieces in it to form.

Being self-sufficient means that when you log in you can play despite not having other players standing by to fulfill your needs. When I turn on my TV I don't expect to stare at a blank screen waiting for enough others to want to watch the same programing I do for it to be played. Same goes in a game. Simply put, I have many better things to do than sit around staring at my monitor waiting for a group to form in order to play a video game.

Is playing in a compatible group better than solo? Yes.

Is standing around waiting for a group better than solo? No.

Is a non-compatible group better than solo? IMO, no, it's even worse than not playing at all.

[patang01]

Slightly more detailed:

Our server populations are in the decline.
We are getting fewer new players, and haven't much reason to expect many.
Before posting on the forums, consider that people new to the game, or considering trying the game will be reading your threads and you are an ambassador for the game.
MMO includes the word multiplayer.
Try to play with others.
Try to play nicely with others.
Try to take newbs under your wings, or you'll eventually (or soon enough) run out of people to play with, or complain about.
Guild renown decay is gone. Encourage newbie-friendliness in your guilds (or start a newb-friendly guild to vet people for your real guild).
Try opening up that last spot in your party to a random instead of popping a hire, at least once and a while. Consider it community service, pay it forward.
Try building one character that isn't self-sufficient. As a challenge to your gaming skills, and your social skills.


Honestly
This is a game. It's really up to Turbine to figure out a formula in how to turn custmers on. Meaning how to retain or increase. What has changed is changed. Asking a customer to change the way they play is fruitless. I'm not saying that maybe players are wrong but telling someone they should change when they pay for the experience is kinda useless.

I'm not saying you're wrong but ultimately it's pointless. I pay x amount for this entertainment. For me if it's not entertaining because it's up to me to adjust with a different way of playing 'because of x reasons' I will most likely leave.
I mean this is not work. I'm not forced to do something a certain way. So if it feels more like work and not a value for your time and money people move on. Simple as that.

[Gremmlynn]

I am a member of a very large guild.

Sometimes I play at odd times and when I check to see who from my guild is online, there are only 5 or 6 folks. The odds that any of them would be in my level range are slim. This has become quite a bit more common in the last year or so.Me too, so it's a good thing I can also enjoy the game solo.


Sometimes I want to meet new people.I have no issue with meeting new people. I do have an issue with having to rely on them to make the game fun rather than frustrating or boring.

[EllisDee37]

Exactly. If I am doing 10,30, 50 quests in a day, those 5-10 minutes really add up. If people are not ready when they click on the LFM that is not my fault.Agreed.

A "high-volume" day for me is running a dozen quests. I usually go slow, get ransack, etc... Not much for grinding (except this past week grinding out 500k xp a day for twists on a new character) but even still, that would add up to 1-2 hours of me waiting around for other people to show up if I had to wait 5-10 minutes each quest. That would be wholly unacceptable even for a slow player like me.

Actually, a regular day for me is probably a half dozen quests, but even a half hour standing around waiting would be torture. For me, waiting for others to get to a quest is similar to waiting for the car in front of me to start moving after the light turns green. Seconds feel like hours.

[Teh_Troll]

Because that wouldn't be a problem. Old people die, others hardly notice.
I don't believe in a static player base keeping up an MMO. Sure it works for a grocery store in a small town, but not on the internet, and not with WB.
Noobs have the potential of becoming VIPs or at least premium. This could keep up a game if there is a steady constant supply of fresh noobs. A few thousand vets? Don't make me laugh.
So the problem is, the noobs refuse to become VIPs and premiums, and not because f2p is so easy-peasy.
This ship is going down with the vets like you blaming everybody else.

Your post makes no sense. Clarify your thoughts and try again.

[Teh_Troll]

Nope, look at the store man.. none of that stuff is "new player" focused, it all about gouging the vets, a new player would not be buying exp pots, otto's stone, or anything like that, Even long term VIP sub is all about the vets.

For people to buy most of this stuff they need to get past the vetting process, they need to feel that this game is where the action is at, it's where the fun is.

The trick here is, what keeps a player around for a month? what keeps them playing for 6 months? What would make someone coming in the door and think "Humm I could stay here for a year"

New players have CONTENT to buy, they don't need Pay2Win.

[Seikojin]

I played the same toon through 3 lives before I really felt like I was a decent player. Nobody learns all the ins and outs in one life. There were plenty of noobs (myself included) playing level 20's when FTP first was introduced, and there still are. Nothing has changed here, except that the really good players from 2007 now have 7 more years of experience under their belt and are waaaay less tolerant of them (myself included).

Yeah I took a break until ftp before lvl 20 was the cap. O.o And even going through lives, I don't commit every aspect of every quest to memory. I have picked up a bit more on the ones I run often enough, but I never hold myself to the highest authority when pugging or grouping. Even as lead I let people know what I know, or if it is a lets discover type of thing, we all learn together.

[IronClan]

Or Turbine needs to focus on monetizing the newer players as well. Content focus is where its at. If you joined a game and were around for a few weeks, and you saw that most of the monetization was catering to a completely different demographic than yourself (the new guy) while the vets are catered to more and more, is that going to make you want to hang around?

Most monetization is catering to powergamer vets?

When I played UO they introduced "Advanced characters" (started about 3/4 of the way to cap (max skills)) before anyone had a "store" and those sold like hotcakes... the people who bought them were casual and avarage players who didn't have the amount of time a hard core players has. Those casuals also bought Accounts with leveled Characters for lots of money, the power gamers 8x8'd their characters up to GM on a boat, using a macro script called "autoUO" if I recall correctly... They didn't buy accounts except to strip them of valuables and resell the stuff to ... casuals.

People buying Otto's boxes are the same people, they are also the same people who used to buy power leveling and gold from third world sweat shops... casuals/average players with money, people with Jobs and a desire to play but less time and less feeling of progression because of it, wanting to compensate by buying some progression.

I don't think the statement that DDO caters to veteran power gamers is even remotely true... In fact I suspect you have that totally backwards.

Creature companions? Monster Manuals? Cosmetics, bells of opening, hirelings, Otto's boxes, Astral Shards to buy EE gear off the ASAH... Power gamers aren't buying most of this stuff, power gamers brag about completionist the hard way, or for that matter "completionist is non optimal, much better off with 3X a couple classes that most suit your build" Power gamers buy Raid timers, off causuals for plat, that casuals need but the vets don't need and constantly protest the valuelessness of... Power gamers do "EE Tor Dragons "know it"and then sell the dragon helms to the people who buy shards so they can get an EE dragon helm without doing EE Tor.

Power gamers do Saga's on EE and collect cov's at twice the rate that casuals do... Casuals/Averages buy epic TR hearts and Epic Otto's boxes...

And once again Chai has derailed a thread completely... I'm half tempted to delete this reply but I just have to address this seemingly counter-intuitive and contraindicated assertion that DDO's store caters to power gamers... Oh well no saving this thread now, next 3 pages will be Chai versus the world. So Moving on...

[IronClan]

How much of that "doing wonderfully" is due to the fail that NW turned into?

BTW, if you think player attitudes are poor over here, play that game a few months. Youll think we are saints. The first time you get out of line with another community member they will report you for spam on all of their freebie accounts, and youll get a 24 hour chat ban from every single one of their games and forums due to an automated system being in place with no human supervision whatsoever.

*Writes down notes furiously* Okay so that's how they got you to stop talking about p2w over there? Got it... *starts 10 new DDO accounts*

(BTW just kidding)


Trying to bait people into speaking of other places will not work. What was said was obvious (if you know where to look) and it is clear the intentions despite it not working into your agenda. I will not post again to you as I am not going to get this thread or myself in trouble.

Vint as you apparently missed I posted the entire quote so people could see the context of it and the clear intent of it. To suppose that Majmal was either confirming WB's malfeasance, or condemning WB for not caring about losing players after you read it, is utterly laughable.

His intentions are very clear: he thinks DDO did better than anyone expected, loss less players than they forecast perhaps and he found this to be wonderful and not doom worthy. If you insist on trying to portray this as Dev confirmation of WB's malice, I will just repost the quote so your assertion continues to look ridiculous and humorously out to lunch next to it. Or until Maj comes in and clarifies a quote that literally couldn't be more clearly NOT what you and troll asserted it to be.

Face it you got busted out exaggerating something you thought only a couple people knew about, and thought you wouldn't get called out on.

[ulgabi]

In so many ways. The biggest way that deals with this topic is Dungeon Scaling. Before DS, running a quest solo was absolutely more difficult than running it in a group, because grouping made the quest easier, since the only thing that changed in that case was how much force you were applying to the same challenge. Now, however, adding more people to a quest can make it harder, because additional people cause monsters to deal more damage, have more HP, AC, to-hit, and saves; your Vicious damage does more to you, traps hit harder and have higher save DCs; more monsters spawn, and the risk to individual characters goes up. So, whereas before, the risk to each character was the same whether you had 1 person in the group or 6, now the risk is lower with 1 person than it is with 6, so if you're playing a strong, capable character, or you're just a good player, you're often better off soloing or short-manning, because it's entirely possible otherwise to add a player to the group who doesn't account for as much of a positive swing in overall group effectiveness as Dungeon Scaling accounts for a negative swing in danger.

The game was changed specifically to make soloing and short-manning easier, to attract and support new players, and it discourages grouped play in a way that nothing else in DDO ever has.

That the devs then tacked on an enormous XP burden with TR--they're most enduring "endgame"--and new vs. Vets dividers like Bravery Bonus just exacerbated the issue.
The casual/f2p player didn't ruin the game, Turbine's shift in philosophy to cater specifically to that player did. Before Dungeon Scaling, few people soloed except for a challenge, or because they really couldn't group (for myriad reasons), because having more players was always a good thing, even if one or two weren't very good (a few specific quests withstanding). Post-DS, that is no longer the case, and I see many many more people soloing.

Why did they introduce DS? Well, first, because waiting for a healer, rogue, or <insert other specific party role> for a long time, instead of questing, had always been a major complaint in DDO, and, second, because they saw how many other MMOs functioned, in particular WoW, where many players spend most of their time running objectives solo. Thus, we get changes like DS, and casual difficulty, and hirelings.

Nice of you to place blame on the vets, though. Obviously, long-term players are evil, vile creatures bent on destruction on all that is good and fun. None of them/us stuck around playing a dying game because they/we enjoyed and cared enough about it to support it even through nearly year-long content droughts and major bugs and server issues.

So turbine made some poor decisions. That is it than. The bane of all is the DS system that forces soloing on all the poor vets, despite being awesome they can't handle a bit of scaling.
For evil turbine wanted to attract new players so they made soloing easy.
This kind of makes zero sense. New players come to DDO to experience coop and play quests in groups not to play them on casual alone. Turbine knows that.
You could say its another of their mistakes but the way I see vets just exploited it.
That catering thingy stinks too. I can't see the "noobs" celebrating in the harbor because everything is easy-peasy. Nope, rather if you TR 6 times and acquire the best loot you simply can't enjoy the new content, because your overpowered character just slice through the hardest of quest on high lvl. See the logic? Its not the quests that became easier.
And noobs want to group (since they have no idea about DS), vets don't. So you are saying the game is dumbed down for vets, yet they rather not take the risk that comes with scaling and PUG. I cant help but type ******** here I am sorry.
Also someone pointed out that shop items focus on vets. I fail to see the catering of new player. Its more like serving (and possibly milking) the vets.
Last but not least I don't see the army of noobs taking over the servers and putting an end to the paradise of the old ones. Only the vets clinging to their illusions and blaming everyone for the decline.

So yes I blame the vets because new players don't make threads about the hells of PUG, or about being elitist jerk is alright, or demanding VIP servers. Obviously long-term players are evil, vile creatures bent on soloing all that is good and fun. Most of them stuck around playing the game because they spent so much money on it they think they own it and can tell what should be done and point at f2p/casual player for blame. For "humans are not a rational animal, but a rationalizing one".
As I close my case riding off into the sunset with the girl, do try to explain how did your logic fail so hard.



Your post makes no sense. Clarify your thoughts and try again.
I made it as simple as possible.
New players could become VIPs and premium to replace old ones. But they don't. Turbine focus store items on vets.
It's not the old players leaving the game (what is a normal at some extent) that is the problem, but the new players not staying to replace the vets.

[sk3l3t0r]

Dear OP, while I understand and feel your pain that PUGing is hard. I started playing this game because it was D&D based, not because it was an MMO. Same reason I started with Diablo a long time ago and soloed 99% of the time in that game as well. Same reason i played Runescape for 6 years, same reason I played Bard's tale, same reason I pleased WOW, same reason i played any online game. Because it was easy for me to startup and play the game without depending on other people to provide me with entertainment. I could login and just start doing what I wanted to do.

I don't want to PUG, I don't want it rammed down my throat, what I want is a standalone version of DDO that when I want to grroup that I log into the "DDO network" and then if I want to PUG, I can do so. Otheriwse I can just play my game and not be a bother to anyone and nobody will bother me. That is how I relax and enjoy my down time. Quietly and alone. Since there is no standalone version of DDO, I must play the MMO version. I apologise for that, but it's out of my control.

Don't try and force me to play your way. I don't want to PUG, I only ever PUGed once in almost 3 years and it was because someone sent me a PM to join a VoD run that one of my guildies was in and they needed a spot to fill. I ignore the LFM pannel, heck I didn't even know or care there was one the first 6 months I was playing.

I joined a guild, not because we play together all the time as a group, but because we share the same language and culture and my interactions with the guild are mostly along that lines. Grouping is a secondary reason as the time zone difference of 13 hours between Canada and Philippines is a limiting factor.

I learned how to build self sufficient toons in the early stages of my learning curve. It was an obvious no brainer, why would I want to depend on other people to complete a quest when I can do it on my own? If I really want to do role based gaming, not that I see any fun in that, but then I would build my toon accordingly and use hirelings for the rest of the roles. Last thing I would do is rely on people to provide me with the missing variables to my equation if I can build the equation to work just fine on my own.

I come to play this game on my terms, I pay to play this game on my terms via TP purchases and the occasional VIP sub here and there to buy content and hirelings. I don't by stones, otto's boxes, xp poitions, SP / healing pots...I may have bought the occasional cake, but otherwise all my purchasses have been content , the 2 xpacs, and dozens and dozens of hirelings.

I don't want to deal with someone's ego, I don't want someone telling me all the information, I want to learn it on my own, I want to learn from my own mistakes. I want to spend hours reading about information online and figuring it out on my own when I have time to play the game my way.

See MR. OP, your playtslye and my playstyle are exact opposites. So instead of trying to influence the only version of DDO out there to cater to a specific playstyle, I feel the solution is to give people like me what we would like, a choice to play how we want to play. I am truly sorry that the evolution and changes to the game have made your playstyle less fun, seriously I am, but don't try and destroy mine by making yours fun again.

If Turbine made a standalone version I would gladly move to that version, that way I won't not join your PUGs and you won't try to force me to group with you.

[sephiroth1084]

I'm only going to reply to you once more, since, clearly, your brain case has been forcibly placed in a dark evacuation hole.

So turbine made some poor decisions. That is it than. The bane of all is the DS system that forces soloing on all the poor vets, despite being awesome they can't handle a bit of scaling. Forces? No. Can't handle scaling? No. People, and I mean all people, gravitate toward doing things the easy way unless they have a solid reason not to. Seeking challenge is one such reason, but one can tackle the same challenge only so many times before it's no longer worth that extra effort.

This issue isn't black and white; it isn't: either we run with a full group because we can handle scaling, or we solo because we can't. If you don't want to wait for a rogue, the difference in deadliness of traps when soloing vs. traps in a full group is tremendous. Elite solo traps often deal less damage than hard full group traps. Some quests have situations or mechanics where having someone die can make things more difficult for everyone. Take Weapons Shipment for example:

The total number of mobs you need to slay now scales heavily depending on your party size and difficulty selected, ranging from 30+ when soloing Normal, to 300+ on a full party Elite.
If you go in there on elite with a full group, where two or three people can't carry their own weight, you're going to be doing even more work, and in more danger, than you were soloing, as counter-intuitive as that may be. That's Turbine's fault.


For evil turbine wanted to attract new players so they made soloing easy.
This kind of makes zero sense. New players come to DDO to experience coop and play quests in groups not to play them on casual alone. Turbine knows that.
You could say its another of their mistakes but the way I see vets just exploited it.
That catering thingy stinks too. I can't see the "noobs" celebrating in the harbor because everything is easy-peasy. Based on what information? I can tell you that you're wrong. Look at other MMOs. Heck, look at the most popular one--WoW. Do you know what you spend half the game doing? Running through a wilderness zone, fighting only the monsters you wish to fight, because many of the others don't aggro until you pass very close to them, or attack them first. You repeat this process over and over again. It's not difficult. Five-year-olds and octogenarians were playing this game and handling most of the content until they started getting to raiding level, or gave PvP stuff a shot. It's not difficult at all, and yet, millions of people were playing the game and enjoying it. Why? Because a lot of people don't want something challenging, because many people want something that they don't have to devote too much thought to when they are gaming--their play time is supposed to be relaxing. It's supposed to be a way to unwind after dealing with the rigors of their day, and for many, that means taking it easy. There are many people out there who are content to play DDO on casual or normal, solo or in small groups with their friends or family. They don't pop up on the forums much, because they want to relax and play the game, not spend hours arguing with overblown egos, and digging through piles of threads that fall entirely outside of their experience.


Nope, rather if you TR 6 times and acquire the best loot you simply can't enjoy the new content, because your overpowered character just slice through the hardest of quest on high lvl. See the logic? Its not the quests that became easier. Calling something "logic" doesn't mean it is. The quests have become easier in some cases, but you're also correct that the game hasn't scaled to the new power levels available. Some of that is a matter of TRs having more power than a new character, and vets having twink gear that puts them above a new player, but that's not the whole picture. On the whole, loot has gotten stronger, tomes are more readily available (or were, before the loot tables got messed up), and the enhancement pass has given almost everyone more power. If you take a character at any given level, of any given player, of any given level of equipment and compare it to a similar character 3 years ago, and both to a character 6 years ago, you'd see that character power has largely outpaced the targeted difficulty of the game. I'm able to roll up a brand new character, with virtually zero twink gear, using only what I find while adventuring, with a few purchases with earned plat and tackle content with ease that would have posed some challenge even to a twinked character of the same level 4 or 5 years ago.

Again, that's on Turbine.

Also someone pointed out that shop items focus on vets. I fail to see the catering of new player. Its more like serving (and possibly milking) the vets. And IronClan pointed out how this is largely false. Yes, vets are going to buy XP Stones, because they have their eyes cast upon goals on distant horizons with much XP between, but so, too, will new players, who want to see high level content without spending months and months leveling through the game, especially those casual players who have money to spend, but not much time, who have leveled one character to cap, and are rolling new characters, or TRing, or ETRing. And much of the rest of the store is cleared catered to new and casual players.


Last but not least I don't see the army of noobs taking over the servers and putting an end to the paradise of the old ones. Only the vets clinging to their illusions and blaming everyone for the decline. Then you aren't looking. I see dozens of new guilds pop up every week, enormous guilds snatching up every newbie that walks into Korthos, and tiny ones made up of 1 person, or a couple (boyfriend and girlfriend, husband and wife), a small group of friends, or a family (parents and kids). Many of them stick to themselves, eschewing the LFMs. Then, there are droves and droves of people who managed to get through Korthos and the Harbor, maybe some early House quests and the Marketplace, only to hit a wall somewhere between levels 6 and 15, where some facet of the game challenges them in a way they don't enjoy, so they leave. Turbine has exit surveys, apparently, showing that many players quit DDO because incorporeal creatures were giving them fits. That means, player quitting at the end of Catacombs, or House D's Depths quests, or Delera's, or some of House P's and J's undead-themed quests that have ghosts, shadows, or wraiths. Apparently it was enough people that Turbine completely retooled their random loot to make Ghostbane ultra-prevalent from the get go.

Most of them stuck around playing the game because they spent so much money on it they think they own it Seriously? Do you really believe this?

The people who stuck around were the ones that were passionate enough about the game to hang through the bad times and the ********. MANY have left, who spent as much or more money on this game than the people who have stayed. Many more people left, tried some other MMOs, and came back here, because despite all its flaws, DDO still offers some great experiences that no other MMO even attempts to replicate.

[sephiroth1084]

Dear OP, while I understand and feel your pain that PUGing is hard. I started playing this game because it was D&D based, not because it was an MMO. Same reason I started with Diablo a long time ago and soloed 99% of the time in that game as well. Same reason i played Runescape for 6 years, same reason I played Bard's tale, same reason I pleased WOW, same reason i played any online game. Because it was easy for me to startup and play the game without depending on other people to provide me with entertainment. I could login and just start doing what I wanted to do.

I don't want to PUG, I don't want it rammed down my throat, what I want is a standalone version of DDO that when I want to grroup that I log into the "DDO network" and then if I want to PUG, I can do so. Otheriwse I can just play my game and not be a bother to anyone and nobody will bother me. That is how I relax and enjoy my down time. Quietly and alone. Since there is no standalone version of DDO, I must play the MMO version. I apologise for that, but it's out of my control.


The timing of your reply was perfect!

This is exactly what I was referring to in my last post: that a lot of people (because I'm certain that this outlook and attitude are not unique to sk3l3t0r) want to play DDO as a single-player, or co-op game (similar to playing on a console, where you're joined with 1, 2, or 3 real-life, close friends or family), and want to relax without being bothered with all of the other stuff the game presents.

And that's fine, as an individual concern.

The problem for everyone else is that Turbine made some rather broad changes specifically designed to cater to this group that affect everyone else. Rather than have Dungeon Scaling, the game would have been better served with a check-box on the quest dialogue screen indicating Solo, Small Group, Full Group, and scaling in that way, not just difficulty, but also loot, and other rewards, and advances. That way, players could play their 1-player DDO game scaled to that experience, without forcing everyone else to play in the same way. We could have had the old Normal, Hard, Elite difficulty settings, which didn't care about your group size or composition.

[Gremmlynn]

...and the most detrimental is that they allowed everyone the ability to self heal.Actually, this was more a reaction to the effect of allowing "healers" to be effective killers. I can remember a time when devine caster classes and WF arcanes (with a little rogue mixed in to get the traps) were primarily the classes "smart" players played and played with because it was considered silly to play or play with another who needed a "babysitter" when the game allowed everyone to be both effective and self reliant simply by choosing to play a support class with an offensive build (or the mechanic that made an offensive class the support class for a particular race).

[Vint]

Face it you got busted out exaggerating something you thought only a couple people knew about, and thought you wouldn't get called out on.


There is no exaggeration about it. Look at the evidence. Years ago many people were permanent banned for a "small exploit" in reavers refuge. Over the past year people have been committing "game breaking" exploits and they are hardly even punished; that's just the small percentage that was caught. An exploit is an exploit, but why are they now being so leniate compared to years past? Integrity is not the issue, this is what they consider player retention. 15 strikes and your out.


As long as people are spending, they could care less what happens. There is more to the equasion but not going to get into that here. Once again it is obvious what is going on if people would quit drinking the Koolaid they might start to see it. / can't post much more as I do not want to get in trouble.

[Chai]

Most monetization is catering to powergamer vets?

When I played UO they introduced "Advanced characters" (started about 3/4 of the way to cap (max skills)) before anyone had a "store" and those sold like hotcakes... the people who bought them were casual and avarage players who didn't have the amount of time a hard core players has. Those casuals also bought Accounts with leveled Characters for lots of money, the power gamers 8x8'd their characters up to GM on a boat, using a macro script called "autoUO" if I recall correctly... They didn't buy accounts except to strip them of valuables and resell the stuff to ... casuals.

People buying Otto's boxes are the same people, they are also the same people who used to buy power leveling and gold from third world sweat shops... casuals/average players with money, people with Jobs and a desire to play but less time and less feeling of progression because of it, wanting to compensate by buying some progression.

I don't think the statement that DDO caters to veteran power gamers is even remotely true... In fact I suspect you have that totally backwards.

Creature companions? Monster Manuals? Cosmetics, bells of opening, hirelings, Otto's boxes, Astral Shards to buy EE gear off the ASAH... Power gamers aren't buying most of this stuff, power gamers brag about completionist the hard way, or for that matter "completionist is non optimal, much better off with 3X a couple classes that most suit your build" Power gamers buy Raid timers, off causuals for plat, that casuals need but the vets don't need and constantly protest the valuelessness of... Power gamers do "EE Tor Dragons "know it"and then sell the dragon helms to the people who buy shards so they can get an EE dragon helm without doing EE Tor.

Power gamers do Saga's on EE and collect cov's at twice the rate that casuals do... Casuals/Averages buy epic TR hearts and Epic Otto's boxes...

All one has to do is look at the new system that was created, where the new method of advancement (getting coms) does not synergize with the old method of advancement (XP). Who is this intended to monetize. Why of course, its the only folks who care about advancing their character power beyond what is needed to complete the hardest content in the game - a subset of veteran players. Most of the casuals and RPers could care less about buying EE loot or raid timer bypass.


And once again Chai has derailed a thread completely... I'm half tempted to delete this reply but I just have to address this seemingly counter-intuitive and contraindicated assertion that DDO's store caters to power gamers... Oh well no saving this thread now, next 3 pages will be Chai versus the world. So Moving on...

Hard to derail something when my posts are on topic. They want to keep new players, they need to cater to them both in game and in the store. In order to discuss this we also have to bring up current methods of monetization and the target audience being monetized. Thank you for playing.

[SilentTooLong]

The timing of your reply was perfect!

This is exactly what I was referring to in my last post: that a lot of people (because I'm certain that this outlook and attitude are not unique to sk3l3t0r) want to play DDO as a single-player, or co-op game (similar to playing on a console, where you're joined with 1, 2, or 3 real-life, close friends or family), and want to relax without being bothered with all of the other stuff the game presents.

And that's fine, as an individual concern.

The problem for everyone else is that Turbine made some rather broad changes specifically designed to cater to this group that affect everyone else. Rather than have Dungeon Scaling, the game would have been better served with a check-box on the quest dialogue screen indicating Solo, Small Group, Full Group, and scaling in that way, not just difficulty, but also loot, and other rewards, and advances. That way, players could play their 1-player DDO game scaled to that experience, without forcing everyone else to play in the same way. We could have had the old Normal, Hard, Elite difficulty settings, which didn't care about your group size or composition.

Im just going to pop up with another tale from the lost world of City of Heroes.

Back in that game it was not some kind of sin to be either new and largely ineffective( side kick grade) or so mighty that you could take on the absolute toughest the game had easily( superman grade). Nor was it at all unheard of for both to be in the same group doing the same content.

The system there was simple and elegant. Standard dif equaled Character lvl and party size was set to one. This could be adjusted by the player at an NPC to be anywhere from character lvl -1 to CL+4, it also could be adjusted from Party Size X1 all the way up to X8. Meaning it was not at all unheard of for a single well made and played character to be taking head on content that would challenge entire groups even with a few more lvls under their belts. Part of why this worked was the effort to make a great character really wasnt that much, one with knowledge of the game could roll up cap, and make a good dent into their special power upgrades within a few months. for the elite veteren it was a matter of days or even hours if one felt driven enough.

Now when you partied the dif automatticaly adjusted upwards for party size, and used the lvl of the PL for the baseline of the group. It also helped that they had a sidekicking system where a character would gain temp upgrades to health and mobs conning to them as lvl appropriate rather then insta splatting them for being more then 4 or 5 lvls below them.

This kind of simple thing allowed players to largely always find a comfort lvl in game challenge and easily pug with others, as even if the super elitists dared to open their group up to 7 random newbs, that leet player really wasnt dealing with any more challenge then they normally craved.

Id say that is the ultimate flaw in DDO, they try to make max dif be built on the percieved power of an entire elite party, when it should be built on the perceived power of that 1 ultimate hero. If we have 6 of those together there should be absolutely NOTHING in this game to remotely rival them. A raid boss should be one of theirs equals, this allows the so called elites to group with and carry the casuals with no fear. The problem is players currently are trying to argue here that dif settings should divide the player base rather then be reasons to interact with different grades of players. The system should be encouraging 1 A lister to want to work with 5 borderline F- players for max personal epeen stroking and challenge, not force all A listers together and others to aspire to reach that tier just to feel satisfaction from their play time.

[Gremmlynn]

Or Turbine needs to focus on monetizing the newer players as well. Content focus is where its at. If you joined a game and were around for a few weeks, and you saw that most of the monetization was catering to a completely different demographic than yourself (the new guy) while the vets are catered to more and more, is that going to make you want to hang around?Except I wouldn't see that. I would see all those content packs that I don't have and that shared bank and the like. Or I would get a sub and see all those things as what they are selling to those who don't have subs. But mostly I would see what I'm looking for in the store and the rest as stuff they sell that I'm not currently looking for. When I walk into a supermarket I certainly don't see the fact that the vast majority of what they sell isn't what I'm looking to buy and walking out, I'm only concerned that they do have what it is I'm looking to buy.

The appearance of them only monetizing what vets want is from the perspective of those who already have the rest, so don't see those things as even being there. New development might be more centered around vets, but that's mostly because we've already done all the old stuff.

What would you suggest they do to monetize the newer players that wouldn't be redundant due to what is already there to do so?

[sk3l3t0r]

The timing of your reply was perfect!

This is exactly what I was referring to in my last post: that a lot of people (because I'm certain that this outlook and attitude are not unique to sk3l3t0r) want to play DDO as a single-player, or co-op game (similar to playing on a console, where you're joined with 1, 2, or 3 real-life, close friends or family), and want to relax without being bothered with all of the other stuff the game presents.

And that's fine, as an individual concern.

The problem for everyone else is that Turbine made some rather broad changes specifically designed to cater to this group that affect everyone else. Rather than have Dungeon Scaling, the game would have been better served with a check-box on the quest dialogue screen indicating Solo, Small Group, Full Group, and scaling in that way, not just difficulty, but also loot, and other rewards, and advances. That way, players could play their 1-player DDO game scaled to that experience, without forcing everyone else to play in the same way. We could have had the old Normal, Hard, Elite difficulty settings, which didn't care about your group size or composition.

and the very reason I understand and feel your pain. I don't want my playstyle to ruin yours and I dont want yours to ruin mine, there must be a way we can all co-exist in the same game and still be able for all to enjoy playing it. But unless this model can generate a greater profit than MMO model or the solo model, we will see a deviation towards one or the other.

I belive someone in this thread mentionned balance, that is truly what is missing IMO, not balance in terms of power creep, but balance in terms or multi player vs solo players and how we can all co-exist in this game without being a detriment to each other.

I truly believe that Turbine staff care, i truly believe that the corporate entities only care about profitability, i truly belive the community in general all want the same thing and that is to see the game continue for years to come...problem is that in the end, profits trump everything, so it doesn't matter that people care about the game, the community or the playstyles, what truly matters at the end of all this is did they reach their profit targets this quarter. if not, we will see more and more ways to make sure that next quarter the powers that be hit those targets, and that is the sadest thing of all..it's what is ruining the world we live in today, not just this game...when profits > people

[Vint]

Actually, this was more a reaction to the effect of allowing "healers" to be effective killers. I can remember a time when devine caster classes and WF arcanes (with a little rogue mixed in to get the traps) were primarily the classes "smart" players played and played with because it was considered silly to play or play with another who needed a "babysitter" when the game allowed everyone to be both effective and self reliant simply by choosing to play a support class with an offensive build (or the mechanic that made an offensive class the support class for a particular race).

Very true, but again this was Turbines doing. I am not critical of the decision but the point has to be made that this brought about the byoh crowd. We'll they have been around forever but this only made it easier for the casuals to not need the "optimal group". Turbine was in a pickle. Lose players because they could not find healers, or give them more self healing options. This then Trickels down to players not needing to lug and we are at the state were there are fewer people pugging. Pick your poison.

[Postumus]

Well, how many jaded vets filled out exit surveys?




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmGNo8RL5kM

[SilentTooLong]

There is no exaggeration about it. Look at the evidence. Years ago many people were permanent banned for a "small exploit" in reavers refuge. Over the past year people have been committing "game breaking" exploits and they are hardly even punished; that's just the small percentage that was caught. An exploit is an exploit, but why are they now being so leniate compared to years past? Integrity is not the issue, this is what they consider player retention. 15 strikes and your out.


As long as people are spending, they could care less what happens. There is more to the equasion but not going to get into that here. Once again it is obvious what is going on if people would quit drinking the Koolaid they might start to see it. / can't post much more as I do not want to get in trouble.

Going to stick my head out on the chopping block again. I am the former forumite known as keravek. Aka Keravek Illkalos of Fernia exiled to Ghallandia.

I stuck my nose out and spoke up concerning the last round of bagapalooza. How after years of playing MMO paladin I had had enough and turned to the dark side, embracing finally the freedom of the exploit early and often mentality. I also called them out saying exactly what I had done, and challenging them to perma ban me if they had the sand to do so to a long time player who had dumped well into the 4 figures into their game over the years.

The result my forum access perma banned. and a 2 week break from the game. The so called with extreme prejudice was them removing any stacks in my bags that seemed excessive, ironically leaving me with hundreds of relics and full stacks of various cookies in my jar. The only thing they actually took from me Id earned on my own was a large surplus of crystal cove and mabar mats that had slowly been building up over each event as Id long ago gotten all I needed and dont roll new alts at all anymore. All in all inspite their so called efforts, I came out miles ahead in in game wealth both in raw plat and the buying of various rare items with plat gained by vendoring mass produced counterfeit gems.

Simply put if this was how well I a first time casual exploiter made out, One can only imagine how the hard core pros in it made kingdoms worth of gain from it. And based on current trends in G lands economy, and a never seemingly slow supply of things like dragon scales, Id bet fairly surely that many of those hard core types who did so still are hard core players with virtually limitless wealth.

I still recall how much I raged at the great chestapalooza connected with the house c challenges. and how few seemed to be banned for that

[Chai]

Except I wouldn't see that. I would see all those content packs that I don't have and that shared bank and the like. Or I would get a sub and see all those things as what they are selling to those who don't have subs. But mostly I would see what I'm looking for in the store and the rest as stuff they sell that I'm not currently looking for. When I walk into a supermarket I certainly don't see the fact that the vast majority of what they sell isn't what I'm looking to buy and walking out, I'm only concerned that they do have what it is I'm looking to buy.

We have seen what that turns into, people who buy content with a lump sum payment and then dont feel obligated to spend another dime.


The appearance of them only monetizing what vets want is from the perspective of those who already have the rest, so don't see those things as even being there. New development might be more centered around vets, but that's mostly because we've already done all the old stuff.

Nope, in 2009 this system was new to all players here and I was saying the same then as I am now.


What would you suggest they do to monetize the newer players that wouldn't be redundant due to what is already there to do so?

Content focus, been saying it for 3 years now. The reason why people dont feel obligated to keep paying once they pay lump sum the first time, is because they dont focus on anything other than nickel and diming folks to bypass artificial barriers in their current time syncs, and creating new time syncs to do the same, and those time syncs require grinding the same old content. Alot of the best content is 5+ years old. If they get back on track with focus on quality and quantity content, people will be willing to buy it.

[SilentTooLong]

Very true, but again this was Turbines doing. I am not critical of the decision but the point has to be made that this brought about the byoh crowd. We'll they have been around forever but this only made it easier for the casuals to not need the "optimal group". Turbine was in a pickle. Lose players because they could not find healers, or give them more self healing options. This then Trickels down to players not needing to lug and we are at the state were there are fewer people pugging. Pick your poison.

Funny logic, seeing as in that other MMO I keep bringing up it was my blaster built to be largely capable of one manning content meant for entire parties that was most prone to forma nd lead pugs. He had zero need for support healing, never saved a slot for it in a game built on arch type classes, and had for years constant and great fun in the pug setting, teaching others who to play boldly and bravely like heroes rather then cower and cravenly hide behind allies. A hero, tanker or blaster should always leap onto the scene with heroic abandon. If you cant do this, you cant call yourself a hero.

They really didnt give anyone ehre more self healing options, WF arcanes came here at launch, the price of playing in eberoni land. They are one of the foundation cracks that damned the game. Not combat capable clerics. The lack of those is Turbines house rules that early on crippled divines largely into a purely support healer role that is another major foundation crack. As is the inability for characters to craft and brew potions or scrolls, tools that in PnP allow a character like a bard, ranger, or paladin to use up largely worthless coin on useful consumables that can make a huge impact at the table top traditionally.

And why didnt we get such things, because vocal players of the 2 non caster classes, barbs and fighters QQed like little ******* at the suggestion of crafting being connected to magical casting. I saw the same thing on champions online years ago in thier PVP population, they demanded and eventually got their crafting system nerfed into pointlessness and drove off every one who liked the ironman/batman approach because the ones who wanted to only pvp said it was unfair that those who actually played the game and used all aspects of its content had advantageous devices they could not get themselves.

[NaturalHazard]

Because the game lacks for things to do while standing around waiting for a group with all the right pieces in it to form.

Being self-sufficient means that when you log in you can play despite not having other players standing by to fulfill your needs. When I turn on my TV I don't expect to stare at a blank screen waiting for enough others to want to watch the same programing I do for it to be played. Same goes in a game. Simply put, I have many better things to do than sit around staring at my monitor waiting for a group to form in order to play a video game.

Is playing in a compatible group better than solo? Yes.

Is standing around waiting for a group better than solo? No.

Is a non-compatible group better than solo? IMO, no, it's even worse than not playing at all.

Agreed

[Chai]

Because the game lacks for things to do while standing around waiting for a group with all the right pieces in it to form.

Being self-sufficient means that when you log in you can play despite not having other players standing by to fulfill your needs. When I turn on my TV I don't expect to stare at a blank screen waiting for enough others to want to watch the same programing I do for it to be played. Same goes in a game. Simply put, I have many better things to do than sit around staring at my monitor waiting for a group to form in order to play a video game.

Is playing in a compatible group better than solo? Yes.

Is standing around waiting for a group better than solo? No.

Is a non-compatible group better than solo? IMO, no, it's even worse than not playing at all.

Forced cooperation =/= holy trinity gaming where the party has to be an absolute make up of one tank, one healer, one CC, and 3 DPS. There no waiting around needed. Take the first 5 people and go, just like we do now.

[Gremmlynn]

Content focus, been saying it for 3 years now. The reason why people dont feel obligated to keep paying once they pay lump sum the first time, is because they dont focus on anything other than nickel and diming folks to bypass artificial barriers in their current time syncs, and creating new time syncs to do the same, and those time syncs require grinding the same old content. Alot of the best content is 5+ years old. If they get back on track with focus on quality and quantity content, people will be willing to buy it.Are you sure this is even possible anymore or really all that profitable ever? Content is likely the most expensive to make thing they have and it's profitability is very much centered around having more players to sell it to at a reasonable price than what it costs to develop it. The fact that the two true content packs that were released last year were lumped together into an expansion in order to sell them at a relatively outrages price and not have to give access to VIPs to them seems to indicate the game no longer has the critical mass of players for this to be profitable at a cost past pricing has led us to find reasonable (Shadowfell was basically two 550-650ish TP packs put together with a few extras and sold for 2495TP).

[ulgabi]

Turbine has exit surveys, apparently, showing that many players quit DDO because incorporeal creatures were giving them fits.
Really? That's the best you can do? Disregard facts and than blame ghost for scaring newbies away? Not obnoxious jerk vets, or self-important VIPs, but ghosts keep DDO from growing and replacing paying customers? Congratulations. Worst fairy tale ever.



Content focus, been saying it for 3 years now. The reason why people dont feel obligated to keep paying once they pay lump sum the first time, is because they dont focus on anything other than nickel and diming folks to bypass artificial barriers in their current time syncs, and creating new time syncs to do the same, and those time syncs require grinding the same old content. Alot of the best content is 5+ years old. If they get back on track with focus on quality and quantity content, people will be willing to buy it.
While you are right about most things, you have to admit turbine can only milk vets, and can't really rely on newbies paying for content. Sad but true.
There is a transition between newbies and VIPs (or vets if its all the same), and this is what's missing at the moment. Nobody would care about vets *****ing about end game content if there were newbies willing to take their place to get milked. But end game content sure isn't driving newbies away.

[Gremmlynn]

Forced cooperation =/= holy trinity gaming where the party has to be an absolute make up of one tank, one healer, one CC, and 3 DPS. There no waiting around needed. Take the first 5 people and go, just like we do now.That still means I have to wait on 5 to hit the LFM. Personally I /g "running X anyone want in" and go. While I might wait a couple minutes for a guildy that says "sure", the fact that we are guildies means they wont keep me waiting while they daddle or will say "go ahead I'll catch up later if there's still room" if they are in the middle of something else.

It also means I have a good idea of what level of "cooperation" to expect.

Waiting around for an LFM to fill then for players who have no reason to care about keeping me waiting around to show up and play in styles and at levels of competence I have no way to predict isn't worth my time to even play the game for. Much more fun to come here and use that time arguing mostly meaningless hypotheticals with you guys. Here at least I can blow the occasional trap box.

[Chai]

Are you sure this is even possible anymore or really all that profitable ever? Content is likely the most expensive to make thing they have and it's profitability is very much centered around having more players to sell it to at a reasonable price than what it costs to develop it. The fact that the two true content packs that were released last year were lumped together into an expansion in order to sell them at a relatively outrages price and not have to give access to VIPs to them seems to indicate the game no longer has the critical mass of players for this to be profitable at a cost past pricing has led us to find reasonable (Shadowfell was basically two 550-650ish TP packs put together with a few extras and sold for 2495TP).

It is the path to long term financial success, if that is what they are striving for.

The current monetization model is good for short term cash injections. Purchased character saturates itself into the market quickly, and how much more can they ramp up purchased character power before people stop falling into the trap. Keep in mind that in order to sell a higher degree of character power, they are invalidating the previous purchases of character power to do so, which doesnt sit too well with folks who purchased the last round of character power.

The game no longer having the critical mass of players is the symptom of not focusing on content. WHen the game gets stale and repetitious due to lack of content focus, folks whom the current monetization model doesnt appeal to begin to attrite, and its only a matter of time before that becomes notice-able within the rest of the community. The reason why there is hope in this situation is because attrition is not final, as players who leave still have accounts waiting for them should they return, and they likely will, if Turbine puts things into motion that caters to those folks.

[Chai]

That still means I have to wait on 5 to hit the LFM. Personally I /g "running X anyone want in" and go. While I might wait a couple minutes for a guildy that says "sure", the fact that we are guildies means they wont keep me waiting while they daddle or will say "go ahead I'll catch up later if there's still room" if they are in the middle of something else.


Not in the version Im asking for it doesnt. Elite not scaling =/= people not being able to shortman it. It means encouraging grouping. This is how DDO used to be, and we used to run on elite with far less character power than we do today shortman. It took longer to run, but we didnt have to wait.


It also means I have a good idea of what level of "cooperation" to expect.

If the PUG scene actually had a learning curve like it once had, players would learn to play, and the quality of the PUG scene goes up.


Waiting around for an LFM to fill then for players who have no reason to care about keeping me waiting around to show up and play in styles and at levels of competence I have no way to predict isn't worth my time to even play the game for. Much more fun to come here and use that time arguing mostly meaningless hypotheticals with you guys. Here at least I can blow the occasional trap box.

Waiting around for players to fill LFMs is a myth. We never had to do that before when elite didnt scale, and the character power then was no where near what it is now.

[ulgabi]

That still means I have to wait on 5 to hit the LFM. Personally I /g "running X anyone want in" and go. While I might wait a couple minutes for a guildy that says "sure", the fact that we are guildies means they wont keep me waiting while they daddle or will say "go ahead I'll catch up later if there's still room" if they are in the middle of something else.

It also means I have a good idea of what level of "cooperation" to expect.

Waiting around for an LFM to fill then for players who have no reason to care about keeping me waiting around to show up and play in styles and at levels of competence I have no way to predict isn't worth my time to even play the game for. Much more fun to come here and use that time arguing mostly meaningless hypotheticals with you guys. Here at least I can blow the occasional trap box.

Really? Instead of waiting 10 min for an LFM that might fill and risking a run that could fail without any serious consequences you loiter around the forum without purpose or will to change anything? Crossword puzzle maybe? Or a pretty jigsaw puzzle? You will know how that should end, so no risk taken.

[Vint]

While you are right about most things, you have to admit turbine can only milk vets, and can't really rely on newbies paying for content. Sad but true.
There is a transition between newbies and VIPs (or vets if its all the same), and this is what's missing at the moment. Nobody would care about vets *****ing about end game content if there were newbies willing to take their place to get milked. But end game content sure isn't driving newbies away.

You make a very good point here. While there are many jerks that can drive away new people, I still think the biggest reason of attrition is caused by Turbine. Bravery bonus and the ability to solo easily pretty much means that new players are thrown in elite content without having a clue. This is definately not good for new players but you can't be mad at vets that can and want to Zerg the harbor in under an hour and move on to their level 3 quests.

Again I am not taking blame off the newb hating jerks but many of the issues are things that Turbine created.

[hit_fido]

These are both good and well supported observations:


Except I wouldn't see that. I would see all those content packs that I don't have and that shared bank and the like. Or I would get a sub and see all those things as what they are selling to those who don't have subs. But mostly I would see what I'm looking for in the store and the rest as stuff they sell that I'm not currently looking for. When I walk into a supermarket I certainly don't see the fact that the vast majority of what they sell isn't what I'm looking to buy and walking out, I'm only concerned that they do have what it is I'm looking to buy.

The appearance of them only monetizing what vets want is from the perspective of those who already have the rest, so don't see those things as even being there. New development might be more centered around vets, but that's mostly because we've already done all the old stuff.

Lack of perspective drives this, yes.


I don't think the statement that DDO caters to veteran power gamers is even remotely true... In fact I suspect you have that totally backwards.

Creature companions? Monster Manuals? Cosmetics, bells of opening, hirelings, Otto's boxes, Astral Shards to buy EE gear off the ASAH... Power gamers aren't buying most of this stuff, power gamers brag about completionist the hard way, or for that matter "completionist is non optimal, much better off with 3X a couple classes that most suit your build" Power gamers buy Raid timers, off causuals for plat, that casuals need but the vets don't need and constantly protest the valuelessness of... Power gamers do "EE Tor Dragons "know it"and then sell the dragon helms to the people who buy shards so they can get an EE dragon helm without doing EE Tor.

Power gamers do Saga's on EE and collect cov's at twice the rate that casuals do... Casuals/Averages buy epic TR hearts and Epic Otto's boxes...

A new player has, according to the wiki, some ~260 quests (380, less about 120 that are free) they can pay to play. That's a really large amount of (potential) entertainment and time for anyone just stepping into this game to look forward to if they decide to keep playing (and paying) - at least for today's average casually-slanted online gamer. They've filled the DDO Store with new player stuff, most of which I cringe at but it must sell: pages and pages of those **** weapons and so on. I don't know many power gamers who are particularly interested in cosmetic fluff and pets either but those are turned out on a regular basis. Character slots, shared bank, inventory tabs, tomes, res cakes, teleport rods and the other stuff mentioned above are all the kind of addons and fluff a new player is going to look at much more than a $50 otto box, at least up until the point they've decided DDO's entertainment value is actually worth that kind of luxury purchase at which time retention and revenue for the foreseeable future has been established.

We don't know what the retention rate is for brand new players, but we can be confident of one thing: if they don't stick around after their introductory experiences with the game, it's not because they haven't been given anything to buy or because they perceive that long term players are "catered to" more. If they visit the forums at all the loudest message they'll hear will be about long term player abandonment re: lack of an endgame - something they wont have to worry about for quite a while.

[Gremmlynn]

Really? Instead of waiting 10 min for an LFM that might fill and risking a run that could fail without any serious consequences you loiter around the forum without purpose or will to change anything? Crossword puzzle maybe? Or a pretty jigsaw puzzle? You will know how that should end, so no risk taken.I find loitering around here entertaining, at least if there are others around to argue with. I don't find waiting around any length of time all that entertaining when there is nothing to do during that wait. 10 mins for an LFM to fill and 10 more for players to sell, repair, buff or whatever they feel they should be wasting my time doing to turn a 10 min quest into a frustrating 30 min grind of making up for other player's mistakes is closer to what I've experienced.

[NaturalHazard]

Waiting around for players to fill LFMs is a myth. We never had to do that before when elite didnt scale, and the character power then was no where near what it is now.

There still are people who insist on waiting around for hjealer, back in the past it was even more common and it was **** annoying when you knew you didn't need a healer but 1 guy yes one guy would hold the other 4 up so he could get a healer. Yes even back then we had groups who would shortman, and not take a divine if one did not show up, hey man can't you just pop a hire and lets go? No I need a real healer!!!!!

[sephiroth1084]

Im just going to pop up with another tale from the lost world of City of Heroes.

Back in that game it was not some kind of sin to be either new and largely ineffective( side kick grade) or so mighty that you could take on the absolute toughest the game had easily( superman grade). Nor was it at all unheard of for both to be in the same group doing the same content.

The system there was simple and elegant. Standard dif equaled Character lvl and party size was set to one. This could be adjusted by the player at an NPC to be anywhere from character lvl -1 to CL+4, it also could be adjusted from Party Size X1 all the way up to X8. Meaning it was not at all unheard of for a single well made and played character to be taking head on content that would challenge entire groups even with a few more lvls under their belts. Part of why this worked was the effort to make a great character really wasnt that much, one with knowledge of the game could roll up cap, and make a good dent into their special power upgrades within a few months. for the elite veteren it was a matter of days or even hours if one felt driven enough.

Now when you partied the dif automatticaly adjusted upwards for party size, and used the lvl of the PL for the baseline of the group. It also helped that they had a sidekicking system where a character would gain temp upgrades to health and mobs conning to them as lvl appropriate rather then insta splatting them for being more then 4 or 5 lvls below them.

This kind of simple thing allowed players to largely always find a comfort lvl in game challenge and easily pug with others, as even if the super elitists dared to open their group up to 7 random newbs, that leet player really wasnt dealing with any more challenge then they normally craved.

Id say that is the ultimate flaw in DDO, they try to make max dif be built on the percieved power of an entire elite party, when it should be built on the perceived power of that 1 ultimate hero. If we have 6 of those together there should be absolutely NOTHING in this game to remotely rival them. A raid boss should be one of theirs equals, this allows the so called elites to group with and carry the casuals with no fear. The problem is players currently are trying to argue here that dif settings should divide the player base rather then be reasons to interact with different grades of players. The system should be encouraging 1 A lister to want to work with 5 borderline F- players for max personal epeen stroking and challenge, not force all A listers together and others to aspire to reach that tier just to feel satisfaction from their play time.
That sounds pretty cool. It would be nice if we could get something along those lines here.




and the very reason I understand and feel your pain. I don't want my playstyle to ruin yours and I dont want yours to ruin mine, there must be a way we can all co-exist in the same game and still be able for all to enjoy playing it. But unless this model can generate a greater profit than MMO model or the solo model, we will see a deviation towards one or the other.

I belive someone in this thread mentionned balance, that is truly what is missing IMO, not balance in terms of power creep, but balance in terms or multi player vs solo players and how we can all co-exist in this game without being a detriment to each other.
Exactly.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

Dear OP, while I understand and feel your pain that PUGing is hard. I started playing this game because it was D&D based, not because it was an MMO. Same reason I started with Diablo a long time ago and soloed 99% of the time in that game as well. Same reason i played Runescape for 6 years, same reason I played Bard's tale, same reason I pleased WOW, same reason i played any online game. Because it was easy for me to startup and play the game without depending on other people to provide me with entertainment. I could login and just start doing what I wanted to do.

I don't want to PUG, I don't want it rammed down my throat, what I want is a standalone version of DDO that when I want to grroup that I log into the "DDO network" and then if I want to PUG, I can do so. Otheriwse I can just play my game and not be a bother to anyone and nobody will bother me. That is how I relax and enjoy my down time. Quietly and alone. Since there is no standalone version of DDO, I must play the MMO version. I apologise for that, but it's out of my control.

Don't try and force me to play your way. I don't want to PUG, I only ever PUGed once in almost 3 years and it was because someone sent me a PM to join a VoD run that one of my guildies was in and they needed a spot to fill. I ignore the LFM pannel, heck I didn't even know or care there was one the first 6 months I was playing.

I joined a guild, not because we play together all the time as a group, but because we share the same language and culture and my interactions with the guild are mostly along that lines. Grouping is a secondary reason as the time zone difference of 13 hours between Canada and Philippines is a limiting factor.

I learned how to build self sufficient toons in the early stages of my learning curve. It was an obvious no brainer, why would I want to depend on other people to complete a quest when I can do it on my own? If I really want to do role based gaming, not that I see any fun in that, but then I would build my toon accordingly and use hirelings for the rest of the roles. Last thing I would do is rely on people to provide me with the missing variables to my equation if I can build the equation to work just fine on my own.

I come to play this game on my terms, I pay to play this game on my terms via TP purchases and the occasional VIP sub here and there to buy content and hirelings. I don't by stones, otto's boxes, xp poitions, SP / healing pots...I may have bought the occasional cake, but otherwise all my purchasses have been content , the 2 xpacs, and dozens and dozens of hirelings.

I don't want to deal with someone's ego, I don't want someone telling me all the information, I want to learn it on my own, I want to learn from my own mistakes. I want to spend hours reading about information online and figuring it out on my own when I have time to play the game my way.

See MR. OP, your playtslye and my playstyle are exact opposites. So instead of trying to influence the only version of DDO out there to cater to a specific playstyle, I feel the solution is to give people like me what we would like, a choice to play how we want to play. I am truly sorry that the evolution and changes to the game have made your playstyle less fun, seriously I am, but don't try and destroy mine by making yours fun again.

If Turbine made a standalone version I would gladly move to that version, that way I won't not join your PUGs and you won't try to force me to group with you.

I'm not trying to force anything or anyone.

I may not have made myself clear. "PUGging is hard" was not a complaint, but a caveat, or admonishment.

It was more like saying "marriage isn't easy" (and I'm a perma-batchelor, probably).

I don't enjoy soloing. I'll log off and play Oblivion rather than run more then a couple quest solo (excepting the odd favor-farm, or other farm). DDO is not very fun for solo.

My best memories are of learning. Becoming a Vet has made me quit for months at a time.

My interactions with. Newbies this last batch of TRs has made me wonder. They are often so surprised and grateful for the little help I can give them, that I have to wonder how others treat them.
I recall tremendous generosity of time, equipment, guest passes...

I have a level 30-ish vanity guild. I've never tried to recruit or build it. But I have taken in strays, from time to time. So they could use a ship, and guild vendors. I tell them I give them as much help as I can, but not to feel guilty about joining a good guild when they get the chance

And I watch the frequency of their log-ins, and more of them become inactive rather than drop guild.

What all of the above means? Heck if I know.


Everyone's entitled to play the way they want. I just hope that we can get some of that shiny feeling back, somehow.
I've been on the verge of quitting for quite some time now. So this is part of my struggle to find reasons and fun enough not to quit.

[Singular]

There still are people who insist on waiting around for hjealer, back in the past it was even more common and it was **** annoying when you knew you didn't need a healer but 1 guy yes one guy would hold the other 4 up so he could get a healer. Yes even back then we had groups who would shortman, and not take a divine if one did not show up, hey man can't you just pop a hire and lets go? No I need a real healer!!!!!

I've seen a few Von 3 EH and LOD runs w/groups requesting healers lately. One person joined a Von 3 EH run I did and popped a hire - I told him 'you won't need it, but if you want, go right ahead' when he politely asked if he could use one.

On an characters without gear, they're probably tough quests.

[Ungood]

It wasnt too long ago that you were all up in here talking about how it would be no big deal if the powergamers were never catered to again

I never said this.

[Ungood]

Or Turbine needs to focus on monetizing the newer players as well. Content focus is where its at. If you joined a game and were around for a few weeks, and you saw that most of the monetization was catering to a completely different demographic than yourself (the new guy) while the vets are catered to more and more, is that going to make you want to hang around?

It's cause and effect man, any and every company needs to follow the money trail. It's not a want, it's a need.

To use your own example:


The truck drivers could care less about sports cars, but the company who makes both better care about sports cars, as they have a demographic of folks they can sell those to as well.

A company makes sports cars and pick-up trucks. Well, if the sports cars are what is selling and moving off the lots, then you can bet the dealers are going to be filling their lots with mostly sport cars, because that is what sells.

Not only would you then increase production and variety of spots cars, You would also cut down on the production and variety of the Trucks and move focus more on the sports cars, if that was where the money was.

If Trucks outstripped sports cars, then the focus would be on Trucks.

Case in point: Look at what happened with the SUV craze, everyone made one, because people were buying them, Companies need to follow the cash flow.

[NaturalHazard]

I've seen a few Von 3 EH and LOD runs w/groups requesting healers lately. One person joined a Von 3 EH run I did and popped a hire - I told him 'you won't need it, but if you want, go right ahead' when he politely asked if he could use one.

On an characters without gear, they're probably tough quests.

Yes I also see that sometimes in heroics but not as much as before, actually more chances of being self sufficient in epics more skill points, gear for umd, some abilities and twists as well. Heh I kind of laugh when some people panic that there is no healer in the group for them, and people try and reassure them, its easy its only hard, we will cocoon and scroll heal you............and afterwards those people being amazed that we did that without a healer and it was so easy!!! :) In epics cause of cocoon but in heroics too with rogues and bards doing scroll healing.

[Raithe]

Everyone's entitled to play the way they want.


No they aren't. They really, really aren't.

This is an online game. There are rules. You DON'T get to do just anything you want (hacking will get you banned, for sure). And by the way, it's extremely ironic that I have to explain this to a guy who created a thread based on the title "It's not all on the Devs, not just the game; the players need to make some changes."

I'm going to let you in on a secret. It's a secret to you, but it's absolutely NOT a secret for about 65% to 70% of the people that try DDO out. People of CONFLICTING playstyles are drawn to these games, and the developers can only support approximately one or two sides of them. See, the 65% to 70% majority are acutely aware of the conflicting playstyle that makes their gameplay bland, boring, and obnoxious. The other side of the coin has absolutely NO AWARENESS of the people whose gameplay they are subverting. That's because for this side, the 65-70% majority is a necessity, not an obstacle.

It's remarkably similar to how your response didn't seem to address anything that sk3l3t0r had to say. You seem to be keenly unaware of his playstyle.

You want the players to start taking some responsiblity? I'd start with yourself and do some research to figure out how you aren't even aware of the problem.

[Vint]

It's cause and effect man, any and every company needs to follow the money trail. It's not a want, it's a need.

To use your own example:



A company makes sports cars and pick-up trucks. Well, if the sports cars are what is selling and moving off the lots, then you can bet the dealers are going to be filling their lots with mostly sport cars, because that is what sells.

Not only would you then increase production and variety of spots cars, You would also cut down on the production and variety of the Trucks and move focus more on the sports cars, if that was where the money was.

If Trucks outstripped sports cars, then the focus would be on Trucks.

Case in point: Look at what happened with the SUV craze, everyone made one, because people were buying them, Companies need to follow the cash flow.

The major problem with your example is that what about the truck clients? They will take their business elsewhere. The sports care may be the cool thing now, but when you sell all of your sports cars then you will be upset that the guy down the street just took your customers because you said to hell with them and only focused on the one group.

Sure Turbine is smart to focus on the people that are keeping the lights on, but look what happens when you put all your eggs and in one basket and forget the people that fill pugs or are keeping your servers full. People leave, less money coming in and this results in Turbine having to sell more and more to the people that are left to recoup from they lost when they alienated everyone.

[Vint]

You DON'T get to do just anything you want (hacking will get you banned, for sure).

I am not so sure of this. I bet if you bought a ton of tp they would give you at least 8 more chances.

[NaturalHazard]

I am not so sure of this. I bet if you bought a ton of tp they would give you at least 8 more chances.

whats that p2e2w?

Pay to exploit to win? :D.

[Vint]

whats that p2e2w?

Pay to exploit to win? :D.

something like that

[NaturalHazard]

something like that

Better watch out mate, people get sensitive and stuff.

[Chai]

There still are people who insist on waiting around for hjealer, back in the past it was even more common and it was **** annoying when you knew you didn't need a healer but 1 guy yes one guy would hold the other 4 up so he could get a healer. Yes even back then we had groups who would shortman, and not take a divine if one did not show up, hey man can't you just pop a hire and lets go? No I need a real healer!!!!!

Yeap and when he said that, the rest of us were in the quest tearing it apart. When I talk about teaching Im not just talking about showing people how to meta-game quests. There comes that part where they insist they want to play the game like its a generic trinity MMO, while the rest of us prove it doesn't need to be that way.

We also didn't have hirelings in that era. We had pots and wands. "Bring pots" was as common in LFMs as BYOH is nowdays.

[Chai]

It's cause and effect man, any and every company needs to follow the money trail. It's not a want, it's a need.

People are confused as to what the cause is and what the effect is then.


A company makes sports cars and pick-up trucks. Well, if the sports cars are what is selling and moving off the lots, then you can bet the dealers are going to be filling their lots with mostly sport cars, because that is what sells.

No, my example was about how both sell, but the person I quoted thought drivers have to care about both or they cant care about either, when in fact drivers can care about one and not give a rip about the other, wile the company has to care about both.


Not only would you then increase production and variety of spots cars, You would also cut down on the production and variety of the Trucks and move focus more on the sports cars, if that was where the money was.

Or you would market the trucks to the demographic you clearly understand exists, which you lost market share in due to neglecting the users interests.


If Trucks outstripped sports cars, then the focus would be on Trucks.

Not solely, if catering to both is what they need to do to stay afloat.


Case in point: Look at what happened with the SUV craze, everyone made one, because people were buying them, Companies need to follow the cash flow.

But they didn't stop making their bread and butter to make them.

Reactionary management is what kills business. Being proactive is what creates more business. The successful business managers don't sit around and wait for trends to occur and then act on those expecting long term results. That's what day traders do in order to create very short term results. Successful long term business managers create their opportunities, because they understand that if they attempted to react to every little trend, by the time they are ready to take advantage of it and leverage resources created by that reaction, that trend no longer exists.

[Chai]

There is no exaggeration about it. Look at the evidence. Years ago many people were permanent banned for a "small exploit" in reavers refuge. Over the past year people have been committing "game breaking" exploits and they are hardly even punished; that's just the small percentage that was caught. An exploit is an exploit, but why are they now being so leniate compared to years past? Integrity is not the issue, this is what they consider player retention. 15 strikes and your out.


As long as people are spending, they could care less what happens. There is more to the equasion but not going to get into that here. Once again it is obvious what is going on if people would quit drinking the Koolaid they might start to see it. / can't post much more as I do not want to get in trouble.

Yeap, it wasn't until people threw a fit on the forums that they came down on it, as it existed for a lot longer before anyone began being loud about it. And if they could find a way to monetize it, it would happen, just as getting into raids without waiting 3 days did.

[Erdrique]

I agree with many aspects of the opening post but I do see a number of groups posted on Thelanis. However, most of the groups being posted are in level ranges that typically create some pretty large gaps. When I first started playing DDO, grouping was key and necessary. However, back then, players didn't have the loot they did then, dungeon scaling didn't exist, hirelings weren't available, paying for potions and wands was quite a challenge, and basically you needed somebody capable of doing some sort of healing to complete a quest, thus forcing groups. The biggest problem back then was finding a healing class to help you (either a cleric or a bard at the time). I remember waiting up to an hour or more for clerics to join groups.

A few years later, things were reversed. Soloing was made much more prevalent. Players were sick of waiting for groups to fill and would just buy hires, which are cheaper than maintaining wands and potions as well as filling a spot.

I have always tried to bring new players into my groups but I didn't focus on putting up groups of my own. I've decided to enter the pug scene and have put up a number of LFMs and have led a few groups since the new year and they turned out really well.

But, until the incentives increase for grouping, I think finding the informative and "friendly" group will still be a challenge. I hope this changes, and I hope I'm part of that change, we'll see.

[Ungood]

No, my example was about how both sell, but the person I quoted thought drivers have to care about both or they cant care about either, when in fact drivers can care about one and not give a rip about the other, wile the company has to care about both.

Then your analogy is really bad.

To make the Analogy correct, you would first need to have a Brand Name, (Turbine), but in the case of Cars and Trucks, it would be perhaps "Ford"

In which case, I would have said: You a "Ford" person, who likes ford Trucks, can't rightly say "Ford" Cars and the people who buy them can die in a fire for all you care, while still really hoping that Ford has a great fiscal year.

Which would still remain true.

[goodspeed]

There still are people who insist on waiting around for hjealer, back in the past it was even more common and it was **** annoying when you knew you didn't need a healer but 1 guy yes one guy would hold the other 4 up so he could get a healer. Yes even back then we had groups who would shortman, and not take a divine if one did not show up, hey man can't you just pop a hire and lets go? No I need a real healer!!!!!

I KNOW.

I recently actually tr'd. (No real reason to anymore but meh.

Anyway I couldn't believe the idiots with boxes up saying elite for BB. I hit join I run over and they're standing there. Ok maybe the leaders afk lets give em 5 min or so. I switch windows, go through some reviews ect, come back in 7 minutes, and they're still all standing there! (and yes it was unlocked for elite and these were tr's themselves)

I mean jesus buddy, not only could I run the thing and complete it zerging let alone taking the time to do it 100% fail safely, I could have ran the thing 3 times over norm hard elite in the space of a bunch of panty waists standing around crossing their streams.

And this is why soloing is preferred or rather static groups.

[Kir1]

It is about game, not players.

Game promotes solo'ing. Solo'ing is actually an easy option and making quests in groups for most of quests make them harder and longer.


You cant really expect players to make their game harder? Unless they need company or want entertainment (from newbie players) they wont group.

[Nestroy]

It is about game, not players.

Game promotes solo'ing. Solo'ing is actually an easy option and making quests in groups for most of quests make them harder and longer.

You cant really expect players to make their game harder? Unless they need company or want entertainment (from newbie players) they wont group.

I think we already had this in here, some 9 pages back. The hot question would be: What is necessary to make the game more grouping-friendly. And while an attitude change by the player base certainly gores some way, it´s mostly up to the devs anyway to make grouping more attractive.

[NaturalHazard]

I think we already had this in here, some 9 pages back. The hot question would be: What is necessary to make the game more grouping-friendly. And while an attitude change by the player base certainly gores some way, it´s mostly up to the devs anyway to make grouping more attractive.

Find some way to scale back on the scaling maybe for a start? Dont have to remove it, I dunno, might make things too easy then. *shrug*

[Orratti]

I think there are some realities that need to set in here.

1) This game is very old. You're not going to get many new people, except those who really care about DnD.[/B]

This is humorous. While the name may draw in and possibly even retain a player it will only take a few hours or days for such a person to realize that the two are outside of a name almost completely unrelated to one another. If a new player came here in the hope of playing D&D online it won't take long for that to fade.

[Peter_Stauffenberg]

I think one of the big reasons for the problems we have with getting more new players is the bravery bonus system. You get so much bonus XP from bravery streaks, running on elite that you post new LFM's on elite all the time. The game veterans can easily short man most heroic quests on elite.

There are normal and hard difficulties in the game that would help new players learn the game and have fun. They can get gear on normal / hard and build up their game experience and toon without following a very steep learning curve.

When most LFM's available are elite you enter as a newb and realize you can contribute very little to the completion of the quest. If you try you end up dead while the others rush from chest to chest to completion. Maybe they get you to the resurrection shrine, but they won't slow down and give you a chance to learn how the quest is really done.

Had newbies met in a normal quest they can use trial and error in a quite forgiving environment. We have all been newbies and started our careers on normal. The problem now is that most LFM's are elite and those quests are not newbie friendly. I still have my fondest DDO memories from the time I was a newb and struggled with normal quests learning them one by one.

We can't just remove all the experienced players from the game so there is no easy way to make heroic content more newbie friendly. Even if veteran players want to be helpful to newbies they will still dominate in the battles getting most of the kills etc.

On the other hand the newbies also have a responsibility to create their own fun. They don't HAVE TO join elite quests just because it gives them more XP. They are shooting themselves in the foot if they advance too fast without getting proper gear while advancing. Just like the level stone brought a lot of newbies without gear to level 16.

Turbine could for example encourage newbies to stay together. Maybe a quest could get some bonuses (loot or whatever) if no TR's were present in the group. Then you could have a flag for the LFM showing TR's welcome (default on). The bonuses you get should be the same regardless of game difficulty. If you can get some nice newb loot running on normal with just newbs or hirelings then you would feel more comfortable doing that.

Many quests are made in a way where the loot is better on elite. Drop rates higher and the named loot different for different difficulties. That is fine for epic content, but for heroic I think you should have the same chance for the good stuff even when you run on normal.

I think getting rid of bravery bonus streaks is a good thing. Keep the first time bonus running elite and hard, but get rid of bravery bonus. That means veteran players can run a game on hard or normal without messing up his streak. Then it will be easier to join a normal or hard newb run just to be helpful to them. Now many vets are reluctant to run anything but elite.

I believe it was easier to get groups running before we had bravery bonus. Then it didn't matter much if the level difference between the highest level and lowest level toon in the group was some levels offset from the quest level. Now the bravery bonus means you have to shoehorn the participants to be within 2 levels of the quest level on normal. Increasing the max level to 28 means you spread the player base even further. So it becomes harder again to get groups at appropriate levels together.

So I hope Turbine get rid of bravery bonus and the harsh level restrictions, thus allowing a bigger spread in toon levels without penalty.

I agree with the OP that we, the players, can change the mentality a bit. However, I think Turbine can contribute too as explained above. Getting rid of bravery bonus is the first step.

[Chai]

Then your analogy is really bad.

To make the Analogy correct, you would first need to have a Brand Name, (Turbine), but in the case of Cars and Trucks, it would be perhaps "Ford"

In which case, I would have said: You a "Ford" person, who likes ford Trucks, can't rightly say "Ford" Cars and the people who buy them can die in a fire for all you care, while still really hoping that Ford has a great fiscal year.

Which would still remain true.

Nope, my analogy is correct. People can care about one thing that the company makes and not anything else if they want, while the company doesn't have that luxury. The guy who likes their trucks doesn't need to like their cars, but the company will still need to care about that set of customers, as well as the one product those users want. You tried to say, and an absolute fashion that they could not do so, which is false. There are brand loyalists, but there are also single product supporters.

[Brendael]

Just read the OP and skipped the 10 pages thereafter so I'm probably releating what everyone else said, but if you want people to group with newbies then stop with the death penalty and get rid of Bravery Bonuses.

Whoever thought it was a good idea to split the player population with these two terrible mechanics should be fired for not knowing how to design a social game.

[bartharok]

Just read the OP and skipped the 10 pages thereafter so I'm probably releating what everyone else said, but if you want people to group with newbies then stop with the death penalty and get rid of Bravery Bonuses.

Whoever thought it was a good idea to split the player population with these two terrible mechanics should be fired for not knowing how to design a social game.

The ideas are not terrible, the way people react to them is.

[Ungood]

Nope, my analogy is correct.

*Sigh*

Why am I not surprised you would retort with this, well, might be because this is not first time you have put up a really bad analogy, and i tried to correct you only to be given this tripe.


There are brand loyalists, but there are also single product supporters.

LOL, you can't be both, which is my point.

[Brendael]

The ideas are not terrible, the way people react to them is.

They may have been well intentioned but they have turned out to be terrible design decisions.

The problem is that people's reactions are logical and the end results were completely predictable. The game designers at Turbine need to consider the long term implications of their design decisions for a change.

[Qhualor]

They may have been well intentioned but they have turned out to be terrible design decisions.

The problem is that people's reactions are logical and the end results were completely predictable. The game designers at Turbine need to consider the long term implications of their design decisions for a change.

Yep. Until recently, DDO felt short term for the past couple years.

[Chai]

*Sigh*

Why am I not surprised you would retort with this, well, might be because this is not first time you have put up a really bad analogy, and i tried to correct you only to be given this tripe.

You didnt correct me. Thinking you did is where the issue lies. See below.


*LOL, you can't be both, which is my point.

No, thats not what you stated. What you stated was they cant say they dont care about one product but care about the other, that the brand makes. In reality, they can. If he wants to only care about things that cater to his playstyle, he can do so. He can also say he wants the game to survive, but hes not going to pay for stuff that hes not interested in. Theres no contradiction there whatsoever. He only cares about the stuff that interests hiim, and thats what hes willing to pay for.

On Turbines side, this does not mean switching all monetization to cater to all the Vints of the game. It means if they want to keep all of them paying into the system they will have to monetize something they want to pay for. They dont have the luxury of ignoring everyone else but the one group however. The customer has that luxury, the business does not.

[Vint]

On Turbines side, this does not mean switching all monetization to cater to all the Vints of the game. It means if they want to keep all of them paying into the system they will have to monetize something they want to pay for. They dont have the luxury of ignoring everyone else but the one group however. The customer has that luxury, the business does not.

Exactly.

I refuse to buy fluff items out of the store and I will not buy AS when they put paid teleports in all the wilderness areas. If they want my money they will have to sell me the ability to use twists in heroics. Or sell my Shiradi the ability to have an additional 5th level spell.

They can keep milking the whales for all the obstacles stuff that Turbine has put in the way. When they decide to start selling things that are not based around obstacles that they put in, let me know. I might actually see what they have to offer.

[hit_fido]

I refuse to buy fluff items out of the store and I will not buy AS when they put paid teleports in all the wilderness areas. If they want my money they will have to sell me the ability to use twists in heroics. Or sell my Shiradi the ability to have an additional 5th level spell.

They can keep milking the whales for all the obstacles stuff that Turbine has put in the way. When they decide to start selling things that are not based around obstacles that they put in, let me know. I might actually see what they have to offer.

So you're willing to pay for raw character power if they offer it to you, but not for fluff or "grind circumvention"? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it seems to be rarer position versus those who are fine buying fluff but eschew raw power, or those who are fine buying anything, so I find it interesting!

[rest]

It IS all the developers' fault.

[Teh_Troll]

It IS all the developers' fault.

Yes.

It is NEVER a customer's fault if a product is unappealing.

[sephiroth1084]

The ideas are not terrible, the way people react to them is.

That's a very strange way to view things.

People act and react in certain ways. Not everyone does so in the same way, but there are certainly trends throughout human experience and behavior that can be looked to. An idea that looks good on paper, but doesn't take these things into account when the entire purpose of the thing is to appeal to humansis ridiculous. It can't be a good idea if it doesn't work. You can't blame people for acting like people for something as subjective as being entertained by a game; you can't claim that they're doing it wrong.

[Chai]

So you're willing to pay for raw character power if they offer it to you, but not for fluff or "grind circumvention"? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it seems to be rarer position versus those who are fine buying fluff but eschew raw power, or those who are fine buying anything, so I find it interesting!

Unfortunately, selling raw character power, and character advancement, is a major portion of how they monetize this game. The reason I say unfortunately, is because this has undermined their ability to focus on content that will remain relevant for any length of time, because people can just pay to bypass the time barriers and have anything they want out of it. Id rather see content focus, but that era may be coming to a close. Hopefully Turbine proves me wrong on this, but recently they have not.

[Ungood]

No, thats not what you stated. What you stated was they cant say they dont care about one product but care about the other, that the brand makes.

And still claim to care about the brand names survival.

If you are going to try and rephrase what I am saying, please at least get it right.


In reality, they can.

No they can't. They would need to be apathetic to the Overall survival of the Brand name to accomplish what you are talking about.

[Chai]

And still claim to care about the brand names survival.

If you are going to try and rephrase what I am saying, please at least get it right.

I did get it right, lock stock and two smoking barrels. You keep trying to be absolute, and theres this huge grey area hey diddle diddle, right in the middle, you are ignoring. Theres nothing contradicting about someone who will not pay a company money unless that company comes up with something that person wants to pay them for.


No they can't. They would need to be apathetic to the Overall survival of the Brand name to accomplish what you are talking about.

Incorrect. I could like cameros, not give a rip about any other chevy products, and if they sold camero to Chrysler, not give a rip either, because I like cameros and remain neutral about everything else chevy does. I can take a position that I wont pay for anything else they do other than what I care about, which is a very narrow focus in their entire product line. That's not hate on the brand, that's product loyalty.

Its marketing 101. You have your brand name loyalists and you have your product loyalists, and a product loyalist doesn't need to give one rip about the entire rest of the brand. The company cannot do the same however, as they don't have that luxury.

[Ungood]

I did get it right, lock stock and two smoking barrels.

If you got it right, I would not be correcting you.


Its marketing 101. You have your brand name loyalists and you have your product loyalists, and a product loyalist doesn't need to give one rip about the entire rest of the brand.

Thank you again, for proving and supporting my point.

[Vint]

So you're willing to pay for raw character power if they offer it to you, but not for fluff or "grind circumvention"? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it seems to be rarer position versus those who are fine buying fluff but eschew raw power, or those who are fine buying anything, so I find it interesting!

Under the ETR system I have to change my play style to run certain quests with the mindset of comms over xp. Not going to knock it, but this is not my cup of tea.

What I will pay for is a lump sum item. Sell a one-time account wide telporter fee (use all the teleports in shadowfail) and I would be the first customer. Just like a lifetime bus pass. But they choose to nickel and dime for every time you want to teleport; not going to happen here. Too many of the things that Turbine is selling are one time use, and then buy more when you run out. No deal. Charge a one-time fee to ETR as much as I like and I will talk, but I refuse to pay every two weeks to tr and I am not going to switch my playstyle as that would not be fun for me to run certain high comm quests.

I know we will never see the day of Bus pass teleports or A onetime fee to bypass running raids (permanent raid bypass) or any other one time options on many things as Turbine loves to nickel and dime people, so the ball is in their court.

Lastly, I have seen many threads lately about how many people are playing per server and what not; but I would love to see the % of people that are like me. Paid for all classes/races/content/useful upgrades, and have stopped spending. It is Turbines job to sell to us, we do not need what they are trying to sell, so maybe they should change their strategy on what to sell to people that aren’t spending. I have ideas that would sell like hot cakes, but Turbine would prefer to cater to the people that buy into the nickel and dime theory so I will continue to hoard my cash until they start selling to me.

[Chai]

If you got it right, I would not be correcting you.

You, are not, correcting me.


Thank you again, for proving and supporting my point.

Confirmation bias is more like it. Its not hard to understand users who will not pay money unless you make something that appeals to them. Theres nothing more to it than that. All these semantics you added about having to have one attitude toward the company if you have another attitude toward their brand or their product, are not only not true, but not relevant. .

[Chai]

Under the ETR system I have to change my play style to run certain quests with the mindset of comms over xp. Not going to knock it, but this is not my cup of tea.

What I will pay for is a lump sum item. Sell a one-time account wide telporter fee (use all the teleports in shadowfail) and I would be the first customer. Just like a lifetime bus pass. But they choose to nickel and dime for every time you want to teleport; not going to happen here. Too many of the things that Turbine is selling are one time use, and then buy more when you run out. No deal. Charge a one-time fee to ETR as much as I like and I will talk, but I refuse to pay every two weeks to tr and I am not going to switch my playstyle as that would not be fun for me to run certain high comm quests.

I know we will never see the day of Bus pass teleports or A onetime fee to bypass running raids (permanent raid bypass) or any other one time options on many things as Turbine loves to nickel and dime people, so the ball is in their court.

Lastly, I have seen many threads lately about how many people are playing per server and what not; but I would love to see the % of people that are like me. Paid for all classes/races/content/useful upgrades, and have stopped spending. It is Turbines job to sell to us, we do not need what they are trying to sell, so maybe they should change their strategy on what to sell to people that aren’t spending. I have ideas that would sell like hot cakes, but Turbine would prefer to cater to the people that buy into the nickel and dime theory so I will continue to hoard my cash until they start selling to me.

This pretty much nails it.

What Turbine sees however, in the previous era when they sold content as a one time fee, is quite a few people ended up in your shoes. After they bought all content they can now play in it without limitation, and are not obligated to spend another dime. There is likely a significant amount of folks who transitioned this way, TRed a lot, and ran up 25k+ points on their account, insuring they will never really have to pay another dime for any new content, since they accrue points faster than they spend them on content.

So they switched to systems, and selling raw character power/advancement. Easier to implement, and with a per use payment rather than a one time flat fee, attempt to monetize in a way they believe will continue to generate revenue. They are heading toward that saturation point however, and theres going to be problems. Once folks stop buying the current level of character power, they will have to ramp up the level of purchased power in attempt to entice folks to buy more, and in doing so they will invalidate previously purchased character power. Queue the forum riots. I already got 15 points on that Redenbacher stock accrued for when this happens.

We have already seen one iteration of this, where EE dream visors people paid an ottos box straight trade for, were worthless a few days later when random loot and some new named quest loot become best in slot for many gear kit ups. When it happens again, they will have to invalidate all this current loot people are spending real money on in many cases. Im fairly certain Turbine understands this at this point, which is why they are scrambling to monetize more systems, and are gearing up to create some new content. They clearly understand that the amount of times they can invalidate loot and then generate the same revenue selling more loot, is a very low number, before users jump off that train.

[Vint]

That’s it Chai. I hope DDO lasts a very long time, but if/when the servers go down I will not feel bad at all for not spending. They have obviously failed to sell things that I am willing to buy.

[Singular]

Yeap and when he said that, the rest of us were in the quest tearing it apart. When I talk about teaching Im not just talking about showing people how to meta-game quests. There comes that part where they insist they want to play the game like its a generic trinity MMO, while the rest of us prove it doesn't need to be that way.

We also didn't have hirelings in that era. We had pots and wands. "Bring pots" was as common in LFMs as BYOH is nowdays.

Question about those days: was it as monty haul then as it is now? I mean, if so, there's no big deal about pots. But if not, that would be quite a struggle.

[Azarddoze]

When it happens again, they will have to invalidate all this current loot people are spending real money on in many cases. Im fairly certain Turbine understands this at this point, which is why they are scrambling to monetize more systems, and are gearing up to create some new content. They clearly understand that the amount of times they can invalidate loot and then generate the same revenue selling more loot, is a very low number, before users jump off that train.

That's an important point you brought there. While I know this surely will happen eventually, I think that people paying for upgrades are the ones that wants everything before everything else. And they are willing to pay for that privilege in itself (right to brag?). May it be because it will help their lack of skills or because the maximum power is what they're looking for. Though I agree it will obviously irritate the ones who paid up front... but if they have ANY knowledge of MMOs, they should know that anything that isn't related directly to their character is going to be replaced. That's just how it works.

I don't know if people really think like that or it is your perception of how those dealing with that situation would react... but it all seems so straight foward to me. Spend real money on loot = SCAM. Unless it's for multi TRs lives and gear that has nothing to do with endgame, IT WILL be replaced.

So many problems are related to the individuals themselves and the way they think things should be handled... Yeah well that's not how it works.

If I was at the head of a company and had the power to come out with something that will create such a short term hype that it will generate quick (and possibly needed) revenue... EVEN knowing that it will be invalidated soon... I might do it. Ethic is something you live by... when you're the one making decisions.

[hit_fido]

What I will pay for is a lump sum item.

Ok, but just to be clear, if Turbine offered to sell you "the ability to use twists in heroics" or to give your "Shiradi the ability to have an additional 5th level spell", you'd pay for those upgrades? Because some players seem to have a hard time understanding why other players find entertainment value in buying raw character power and others seem dismayed when Turbine "makes something that appeals to them". You obviously aren't a so-called whale so if you meant what you wrote then it's worth noting another data point regarding the wider than admitted spectrum of willing "power" purchasers.


I would love to see the % of people that are like me. Paid for all classes/races/content/useful upgrades, and have stopped spending. It is Turbines job to sell to us, we do not need what they are trying to sell, so maybe they should change their strategy on what to sell to people that aren’t spending.

Unsupported speculation is that the percentage is strongly correlated to how long the player has played, and therefore a significant percentage of long term players but a small percentage of newer players. I can empathize: at this point I buy any new storage more or less the day it's released (which is very rare); buy new content shortly after it's released (but still have yet to play every quest or even every raid in the game, so slow release of new content doesn't bother me); and will buy epic hearts as needed - to me that is not much different philosophically than putting another quarter in the machine for a replay and replaying a game I enjoy enough to spend time in is worth some replay price, for my part. Of course if they make it as trivial to get epic hearts as getting heroic hearts became over time, I wont buy them either. I'm hard pressed to think of something else they could offer that I'd pay for over and over. Probably new Monster Manuals but it sounds like that product line has been terminated.

So we should both be seen by Turbine as having limited potential for new or, more importantly, recurring revenue. Especially compared to a new player just getting into the game, who may end up more likely to make those other kind of repeat purchases.

[Vint]

Ok, but just to be clear, if Turbine offered to sell you "the ability to use twists in heroics" or to give your "Shiradi the ability to have an additional 5th level spell", you'd pay for those upgrades? Because some players seem to have a hard time understanding why other players find entertainment value in buying raw character power and others seem dismayed when Turbine "makes something that appeals to them". You obviously aren't a so-called whale so if you meant what you wrote then it's worth noting another data point regarding the wider than admitted spectrum of willing "power" purchasers.

If I understand you correctly, I could care less how much power Turbine sells to people. They can sell straight PL’s, +10 tomes or anything else that would make a toon as powerful as they want (as long as they do not base content around having all the upgrades). As I see it if you join my party and you have God stats, I will not cry because you carried me thru. I will be happy to be the silver medal as long as we get done quickly. I love the xp/minute ratio.

I agree with you on many purchases. I have all the storage and I would pay for as many monster manuals as they would make (RIP). Since we have not been given the option to buy storage there is really nothing I need. I do not have to have twists in heroics to survive, but I can see where they could be handy from time to time. This is also nice as I prefer to play heroic over epic content anyways.

I hope I answered your question, but I can tell you that there is nothing atm that I need from Turbine. And after the fiasco with removing detect secret door because it was OP then sell it right back to us, I am not so sure I would be willing to spend much on anything anymore.

[Chai]

Question about those days: was it as monty haul then as it is now? I mean, if so, there's no big deal about pots. But if not, that would be quite a struggle.

It was fairly monte haul money wise, but not power creep wise. When threnal was the popular loot run, getting a +1 flaming of pure good weapon was uber, but keeping a 100 stack of potions available wasn't hard once someone ran one character. There were popular items that newbies could sell for decent amounts of plat. Collectibles for the AC ritual, force hit/crit ritual etc...were easy to get and sell. Pulling a suit of mithril armor made you rich. :p

[hit_fido]

I do not have to have twists in heroics to survive, but I can see where they could be handy from time to time. This is also nice as I prefer to play heroic over epic content anyways.

Oh absolutely, not suggesting you need twists, but the salient point is that you would see "twists in heroics" as an entertaining addition to the game you would value enough to pay for if Turbine introduced that product. But you're completely not interested in paying for raid bypassers and otto boxes.

I think I understand where you're coming from.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

No they aren't. They really, really aren't.

This is an online game. There are rules. You DON'T get to do just anything you want (hacking will get you banned, for sure). And by the way, it's extremely ironic that I have to explain this to a guy who created a thread based on the title "It's not all on the Devs, not just the game; the players need to make some changes."

I'm going to let you in on a secret. It's a secret to you, but it's absolutely NOT a secret for about 65% to 70% of the people that try DDO out. People of CONFLICTING playstyles are drawn to these games, and the developers can only support approximately one or two sides of them. See, the 65% to 70% majority are acutely aware of the conflicting playstyle that makes their gameplay bland, boring, and obnoxious. The other side of the coin has absolutely NO AWARENESS of the people whose gameplay they are subverting. That's because for this side, the 65-70% majority is a necessity, not an obstacle.

It's remarkably similar to how your response didn't seem to address anything that sk3l3t0r had to say. You seem to be keenly unaware of his playstyle.

You want the players to start taking some responsiblity? I'd start with yourself and do some research to figure out how you aren't even aware of the problem.

I didn't address anything he had to say because I can't be bothered. There are too many opinions, and look at all the aggro I've drawn. Really, why should I continue with the arguing. I said my piece, and a lot of people are defending their right to be... exactly contrary to what I was trying to promote. I'm well deflated and unmotivated.

Derision, sarcasm.. look at you attacking me; if you're going to keep dripping that much condescension you're going to need a bib, or at least a tissue.

You are, however, making assumptions about what I know and don't know by what I have chosen not to address. I know there are other play styles, how could I not? How could anyone who's played the game for a couple years not be aware? In fact, I've probably alluded to some already. What you're really doing is being insulting - and you really lack style about it. For God's sake, try some wit, then you'd be worth reading.

Here you are, telling me that I'm not aware of "the problem" as if there were only one problem.
You seem keenly unaware that there are a lot of people out there, and in here, who are extremely off-putting to veteran gamers and newbies. If that's a "play style," I dare say that I am aware of that one.

When I say "not all on the Devs, not just the game..." I mean what I said. There is more than one problem.
There are far too many people, particularly on the forums, who are inflexible, and have the social skills and grace of a badger with a burr up it's rear.


Look at you: I say "everyone is free to play how they want" and you jump to the extremes of... cheating and hacking. That's a huge W!T!F!?! right there. Talk about "left field." Either you seriously lack perspective, or you deliberately took it to an extreme as part of your attempt to belittle me.
Look how many people have chosen to focus on game design in this thread aimed at promoting social values. One could suggest that they're deliberately avoiding things they they don't want to address, or consider.


Let me clarify, "everyone is free to play how they want" was really a subtle euphemistic way of saying that: I accept that a great number of people will remain DBs. While I'll do my best not to judge you, I really hope I never meet you in game.


Cheers for your participation. You've reaffirmed many of my opinions.




To the general forums:
I appreciate that there were a few people who appreciated what I had to say. Thank you.

However, in retrospect, I think that promoting the golden rule, or that people try - once in a while - to pay back some of the kindnesses random strangers gave them when they were starting out was ill-conceived.

For the most part, I think the forums and in-game community are now mainly comprised of the people who haven't quit (clearly). Some of us, are like those who don't want to end a failed relationship long after the thrill, fun, and feelings of mutual admiration have worn off.
The majority may indeed be these elite power gamers and soloists and what-not that have either adapted well to the worst of the changes to the game, or the people the changes were aimed at.

Whatever the case, I think that the people who liked what I had to say were already doing much of the important things I was suggesting. The rest... would be deaf ears, or people with their fingers in their ears chanting "nah nah nah nah nah, can't hear youuuuuu, nah nah nah nah..."


So, yeah, I'm departing this thread. W/e.

Any further conversation or attacks can be PMed, but I will not be participating here.

[Brendael]

This pretty much nails it.

...in the previous era when they sold content as a one time fee, is quite a few people ended up in your shoes. After they bought all content they can now play in it without limitation, and are not obligated to spend another dime...

Well the answer is to focus on making new content that people want to buy. It will keep the game fresh and relevant and they will make money.

I've always thought that they have mature toolsets to create content so it should be quick and cheap to make new content with a small staff (If not then what have they been doing for the last 10 years.)

[bartharok]

They may have been well intentioned but they have turned out to be terrible design decisions.

The problem is that people's reactions are logical and the end results were completely predictable. The game designers at Turbine need to consider the long term implications of their design decisions for a change.

Peoples reactions may be predictable, but logical they are not. People shooting themselves in the leg and then complaining about the limp is not logical, but unfortunately it is a common occurrence

[Singular]

It was fairly monte haul money wise, but not power creep wise. When threnal was the popular loot run, getting a +1 flaming of pure good weapon was uber, but keeping a 100 stack of potions available wasn't hard once someone ran one character. There were popular items that newbies could sell for decent amounts of plat. Collectibles for the AC ritual, force hit/crit ritual etc...were easy to get and sell. Pulling a suit of mithril armor made you rich. :p

Thanks :)

Even after I joined - 2010 - mithral sold well. I never really had a lot of plat until recently, though. Last Dec. was the first time I've plat capped - mind you, I have nothing to buy, having 'end' gear on all my toons and I used to spend all my plat on GS mats, then alchemical mats.

[ulgabi]

If I understand you correctly, I could care less how much power Turbine sells to people. They can sell straight PL’s, +10 tomes or anything else that would make a toon as powerful as they want (as long as they do not base content around having all the upgrades). As I see it if you join my party and you have God stats, I will not cry because you carried me thru. I will be happy to be the silver medal as long as we get done quickly. I love the xp/minute ratio.
Why do you play ddo? You could sit in your room and throw a die over and over again.
"Yay 20 I won!
Oh 18, I still won because its within the throw/minute/value ratio.
Noooooo its a 1!!! That thrown totally didn't worth my time!!!"


I see you all got really into analyzing the store and its business model. What you people forget to add is, that subscription model is on its decline. The only MMO that was a real subscription success (and I don't mean get by making some profit) was WoW. I don't know why, never played it myself, but that is it. Those who are willing to pay monthly will only pay 1 game. But even these people rather just go premium, because leasing a game just does not feel right.
Maybe its just the economy crisis. But this is also the reason P2W is on the rise. Today you HAVE to sell something other than the gaming experience, even if its just high numbers next to a pretty picture. But some of the newbies would P2W too. Still I don't see them.

[NaturalHazard]

If I understand you correctly, I could care less how much power Turbine sells to people. They can sell straight PL’s, +10 tomes or anything else that would make a toon as powerful as they want (as long as they do not base content around having all the upgrades). As I see it if you join my party and you have God stats, I will not cry because you carried me thru. I will be happy to be the silver medal as long as we get done quickly. I love the xp/minute ratio.

I agree with you on many purchases. I have all the storage and I would pay for as many monster manuals as they would make (RIP). Since we have not been given the option to buy storage there is really nothing I need. I do not have to have twists in heroics to survive, but I can see where they could be handy from time to time. This is also nice as I prefer to play heroic over epic content anyways.

I hope I answered your question, but I can tell you that there is nothing atm that I need from Turbine. And after the fiasco with removing detect secret door because it was OP then sell it right back to us, I am not so sure I would be willing to spend much on anything anymore.

How about if they came out with some awesome packs, expansions with good raids, good quests and good loot would you take out the credit card then? Or use up your stash of points?

[Vint]

Why do you play ddo? You could sit in your room and throw a die over and over again.
"Yay 20 I won!
Oh 18, I still won because its within the throw/minute/value ratio.
Noooooo its a 1!!! That thrown totally didn't worth my time!!!"


I see you all got really into analyzing the store and its business model. What you people forget to add is, that subscription model is on its decline. The only MMO that was a real subscription success (and I don't mean get by making some profit) was WoW. I don't know why, never played it myself, but that is it. Those who are willing to pay monthly will only pay 1 game. But even these people rather just go premium, because leasing a game just does not feel right.
Maybe its just the economy crisis. But this is also the reason P2W is on the rise. Today you HAVE to sell something other than the gaming experience, even if its just high numbers next to a pretty picture. But some of the newbies would P2W too. Still I don't see them.

The only real reason I am still here is because of friends and guildies that I have had for 8 years. This is my first MMO and more than likely my last. If the core group of friends moves to a new game, so will I but I will more than likely go back to the console games.

I was VIP for 5+ years and I dropped my fair share into the game. The only reason I dropped VIP and cut back the overall spending drastically was seeing more and more P2W added. I know that Turbine needs to add this, but there are other ways.

[Ungood]

You, are not, correcting me.

I am, you are just not willing to listen.


Confirmation bias is more like it. Its not hard to understand users who will not pay money unless you make something that appeals to them. Theres nothing more to it than that. All these semantics you added about having to have one attitude toward the company if you have another attitude toward their brand or their product, are not only not true, but not relevant. .

I have to admit, there is something enduring about your effort to prove your point, longe after you have proven you do not know what you are talking about.

Lets have a Quick Breakdown:


Brand Loyalist:


Using "Ford", a person who is a Loyalist to Ford Products, will want Ford Motor company to stay around and continue to make priducts they want to buy. These people are Brand Loyalist. They may not care about racing, but, they Believe Ford makes the best race cars, they know Ford sponsors a race car, and even if they never saw a race or saw Ford's race car, they would chant "First On Race Day", they may never own car, they may think cars suck, and feel that the people who own are losing out in life, BUT if they were going to buy a car, it would be a Ford, and they know some of the cars that ford makes, maybe only the ones that were really akin to what they prefer from Ford, like if they were a Truck kind of person, they may know of the Ranchero.

In Turbine's case: They have a Dual Brand System.

They have Turbine Brand Loyalist: these people enjoy Turbine games, and feel that Turbine makes good games.
These people play DDO, LOTR, and when it comes out they will play Turbines DC MOBA, or at least know about it, and even recommend it as a "Take a break from DDO game" when those topics come up.

This kind of Loyalist can not be taken away from a Company, it has to be driven away by that company.

They also have Dungeons and Dragons Brand Loyalist: These are people who play DDO, because it is the Dungeons and Dragons Franchise. If this game had a different name, they would not be here, they never would have started playing, and they never would continue to play.

This kind of Loyalist is pretty easy to pull away, just get a licence with the Franchise, and you have a chance to pull them away, Ala Neverwinter.

Other Fine Examples of this kind of Brand Loyalty are: Lord of the Rings Online, World of Warcraft, Marvel Hero's, Elder Scrolls, Conan, War Hammer, etc, etc, we all get the idea, games built off existing Franchise and well known Brands that will attract people who like that Brand, and will buy it, because it is that Brand.


Product Loyalist:

This would be a Truck Person. They may own a Ford Truck, they may like Ford Trucks, in fact they may think that Ford makes the best trucks, but, if a Better Truck came out, they would be looking at that Truck. They Don't care if Ford makes a single sale on their cars, jeeps, or anything else, in fact, if Ford goes out of Business tomorrow, they may mourn the loss of finding parts for their current truck, but when the day came to get a new Truck, they would be unaffected by the passing of Ford Motor Company.

In the Case of DDO and Turbine and MMO's as a whole, Product Loyalist would be, simply people who enjoy specific features of a game.

PvP Enthusiasts. If the game does not have PvP, WvW, RvR, then it's not their thing. They don't care about the other stuff, and quite honestly don't want to know about it. The game with the best version of this, is the game they want play.

Dungeons and Instance Based Questing: Some people love this stuff, and really, if the game does not have this feature, it may as well not exist to these players.

Being able to Solo: Some people just like the idea of being able to solo their way in a MMO, it's a feature that attracts them, and if the game does not support this, then they leave it on the shelf.

Graphics: From Gritty Old School Fantasy, to super future Cyber Punk, to from Anime to hyper-realism, different graphics attract different demographics, having a preference to a Graphic type is form of Product Loyalty, some people simply like Anime, and if the game is not done in that style, it just won't appeal to them, others need that Gritty realism.

Other Aspects: Dynamic Cosmetics, Raids/Large Fights, Open World, Variety of Classes/Races, Payment Plan, etc, etc, etc.

Product Loyalist are about the easiest group to pull away, put out a new product, tell them that you have what they want, and they will scamper over to you, it also happens to be the most fickle group of players, and often cannot be depended upon for the long haul to keep an MMO going, as they are always looking for the next pretty to catch their eye.

In the end, You can't really be both at the same time. One or the other guides your judgment.

[Ungood]

How about if they came out with some awesome packs, expansions with good raids, good quests and good loot would you take out the credit card then? Or use up your stash of points?


Dang it Jim, why did you have to the "Good" qualifier in there.. Now it will NEVER happen.. :p

[Ungood]

Thanks :)

Even after I joined - 2010 - mithral sold well. I never really had a lot of plat until recently, though. Last Dec. was the first time I've plat capped - mind you, I have nothing to buy, having 'end' gear on all my toons and I used to spend all my plat on GS mats, then alchemical mats.

I have no problem blowing plat.. I'm married to a gamer.

[SilentTooLong]

What I find amusing about all the so called hoarding their wealth and not supporting players who claim to love the game is well that they are stupid as shiite. MIRCRO transactions is and has been the name of the game in this industry. The idea of one time life time subscriptions have hurt more then helped the games that used them.

Its simple if you actually like playing this game still, spend on it, support it, even if its just paying 5 bucks a month for a cosmetic. If you dont feel like the game deserves that little bit, GTFO like I and so many others have done, and enjoy FORUM DDO and watching the beautiful agony of a train wreck in the making. Or at least dont act like you still like the game on some level.

Its an easy line in the sand to figure which side you stand on. Do you still log in and play DDO over any other game choice? If yes you must like the game, and if you do but go out of your way to justify not supporting it financially if you have fun money to burn, then your a hypocrite plain and simple. Because if your not spending, your opinion means nothing to the PTB.

If you dont log on anymore, just cruise the forums during a bored bit of work downtime, and in general cant fathom why anyone else plays or spends on the game, then your clearly in the right camp, and are free to hate on the game thoroughly.

If you actually cant afford, nor earn what you want in game, accept your a peasant and the nobility with all their wealth will ALWAYS be above you.

But ultimately what I truly find hilarious is that anyone thinks the people at Turbine give lead coins about DDOs lasting. It is not nor has ever been their main title focus, nor has much of the likely non existent earnings DDO has brought in have ever gone back into the title rather then get used on LOTR.

This idea Turbine, WB, or even WOTC cares about DDO lasting is the ultimate in stupid assumptions. the day this game gets shut down not one eye in any office will blink nor shed a tear. They will simply sit there smiling at all the most recent TP purcahases now wasted as they offer to transfer them to LOTR but will not ever refund them.

Enjoy the ride if you can, but dont think there is some grand desire to see this game go on for years to come. Its long past the date they likely planned for in the first place.

[Vint]

Dang it Jim, why did you have to the "Good" qualifier in there.. Now it will NEVER happen.. :p

The content does not even have to be great for me to buy. I paid for shadowfail. Up until last Christmas I spent over $100 on double point bonus. I do use my points, but I will not just use them blindly and then restock as needed.

I am not against spending money, but it goes back to the old story. If the only thing Turbine is going to sell is workarounds to the barriers they purposely put in, I will keep my wallet shut. There are many other things Turbine can sell, but until they are willing to why should I be in a rush to spend?

[Vint]

What I find amusing about all the so called hoarding their wealth and not supporting players who claim to love the game is well that they are stupid as shiite. MIRCRO transactions is and has been the name of the game in this industry. The idea of one time life time subscriptions have hurt more then helped the games that used them.

But those like me are following the system they put in place. Back when they switched from Sub only to the micro transaction system all that was needed was $100 and you could have essentially all that A VIP had. We could easily earn enough tp through favor to pay for the content/races/classes they put out so they switched to expansions (they dolled up 2 packs and call it that at least), and thought this was the way to get money out of people like me.

Now I see posts like yours saying I am the bad guy for not buying into schemes? No one wants to touch the most recent issue of detect secret door as this is obviously a ploy Turbine has to remove things from the game to sell right back to me. If they quit doing garbage like this and went back to not putting in barriers then I would be one of the largest whales on Thelanis.

Lastly, I have more than paid my fair share. I have just as much right as a whale to play what I paid for.

[Gljosh]

I rarely bother to post on these tyrannical forums anymore but this statement smacks of ignorance to the point I felt compelled.

CoH/CoV or simply CoX to those who actually played it, did not DIE! It was murdered by its parent company NC Soft for absolutely no sane nor sound business approach. The year CoX was killed, its earnings for the company where among the highest profits Paragon Development Studios had ever brought in. The games stable population on its two main servers Freedom and Virtue where well over 30,000 players at nearly any given time of the day. It did not FORCE roles on players, as despite the arch type nature, each and every power set combination with the right set bonuses and collection of temp powers could transcend their box. The fact was its character creation and building was far better developed and possessed of a depth far greater then DDOs because as many are right to point out here in DDO all characters end up playing the exact same if build well.

In CoX this was far from the case. I had 4 different capped scrappers for example, each of whom played very differently both in how they dealt damage and avoided/recovered from it. I had a blaster who could out kill and out survive entire teams of tanks and typical blasters. And it was a game where a well created and played Offender could solo the mightiest things in the game with time, timing, and talent.

It was and will always remain to me and many others THE MMO that was TOO GOOD and killed because its existence made its own parent company uncomfortable with releasing new games like GW2 a game I had long looked forward to, eagerly planned to play, had preordered, and never ever have touched due to the actions of NC SOFT concerning another of their MMOs. Never again will I invest in nor have faith in ANY MMO. I still own and play old PC games from a decade ago that cost me 20-60 bucks. Games like DDO or CoX and all the time and money I put into them once taken from me are gone forever and leave bitter regret alone.

Virtue for life!

Ok I get it you loved this game and everyone thinks it was a conspiracy that did it in or a simple RONA based fiscal decision. I played Masterminds (still the BEST summoner of ANY MMO), Offenders, Defenders, and Controllers, loved them, the movement, the character build (custom attacks AND CAPES), and questing mechanics. If that engine would have been bought by Disney or Warner Brothers, it would be the top MMO period. When I rejoined at FTP seems like no one has on most of the servers.

[Chai]

What I find amusing about all the so called hoarding their wealth and not supporting players who claim to love the game is well that they are stupid as shiite. MIRCRO transactions is and has been the name of the game in this industry. The idea of one time life time subscriptions have hurt more then helped the games that used them.

Theres not really much of a difference between life time sub and microtrans. You pay a lump sum up front for the content, and are never obligated to pay again. Thats how BOTH systems work., and BOTH have hurt the industry just as much because of this. People are then simply playing what they paid for from then on out. If the company then wants players to spend more, they have to create and implement something those players want to buy.

Microtrans sure looks good on the accounting ledger when the game is in the phase where people are paying for content, but once that is past what they end up with is folks who own all of the content, playing through said content as they are entitled to do, for long periods of time, not obligated to pay any more to do so. Microtrans on its own failed as hard as sub models did, and companies are beginning to realize this is not a viable long term stagnant monetization strategy like a sub based game would be. They cannot sit there and collect fees for running the same content and leverage the same assets over and over again. They constantly have to be injecting new things into the system for players to buy, because when the old stuff is saturated into the market, it stops getting bought at the rate it used to.

Note that DDO will not even go full microtrans. They are a hybrid, because they clearly understand an amount of relatively guaranteed income per month is a good thing.




Its an easy line in the sand to figure which side you stand on. Do you still log in and play DDO over any other game choice? If yes you must like the game, and if you do but go out of your way to justify not supporting it financially if you have fun money to burn, then your a hypocrite plain and simple. Because if your not spending, your opinion means nothing to the PTB.



Nope, not true in the slightest. You see, the folks playing this game already paid for the content they play in. They already bought the portions of the product they use. Turbine set it up so that they could buy what they want and then are not obligated to pay another dime. Its not the customers fault for buying what they wanted, and refraining from buying what they do not want. You are so openly against subscription models, but those are the models that keep guaranteed money coming in from the core playerbase. Microtrans does not guarantee that. People are not hypocrites for paying for what they like, and not spending on what they dont like. Its kind of ironic that you are bashing subscription models, because that is the model where customers have to pay periodically to continue to be able to play the game, which you seem to favor.

[Orratti]

Why do you play ddo? You could sit in your room and throw a die over and over again.
"Yay 20 I won!
Oh 18, I still won because its within the throw/minute/value ratio.
Noooooo its a 1!!! That thrown totally didn't worth my time!!!"


I see you all got really into analyzing the store and its business model. What you people forget to add is, that subscription model is on its decline. The only MMO that was a real subscription success (and I don't mean get by making some profit) was WoW. I don't know why, never played it myself, but that is it. Those who are willing to pay monthly will only pay 1 game. But even these people rather just go premium, because leasing a game just does not feel right.
Maybe its just the economy crisis. But this is also the reason P2W is on the rise. Today you HAVE to sell something other than the gaming experience, even if its just high numbers next to a pretty picture. But some of the newbies would P2W too. Still I don't see them.

You are wrong. The subscription model for DDO was a complete success. It helped provide the money Turbine wanted to develop LOTRO, a game that was not tied to any legal agreements with Atari or WotC. In fact I'm pretty sure that the works of Tolkien (spelling) are old enough to be considered public domain since he is deceased. There is a legal term for it which I don't know the exact name of. Even if there is some living relative of his that has some rights to material created that are based off of his work I'm sure they are so happy getting paid anything that Turbine can do whatever they want with the lore. Since the release of LOTRO DDO has been nothing more than a huge test server to see what will and will not work or will and will not be accepted by the players of the game. It's like a psychological experiment into the mind of gamers to gather information to be used in future games or LOTRO developement. It has never failed to serve the purpose it is being used for. They have a nice little check list going so far.

Can you make a game f2p and still get paid- check

Can you ignore your prior agreements and still get paid (content/classes to vips)- check

Can you twist the arms of free to play players and still get paid(destinies to premiums with full content)- check

Can you introduce grind in place of content- check

Can you completely change the game mechanics and still get paid- check

Can you recover player losses by officially introducing player input (player council)- unknown

Can you use nostalgia and game lore (returning to old known D&D material) to still get paid- unknown

The list of course is more detailed and longer.

You forgot Eve online which is also a successful subscription based game. There are also better variations of f2p out there as well. Oh and those who pay subs don't see it as leasing a game they see it as paying for entertainment like a movie or paying for a service like internet access.

[Ungood]

The content does not even have to be great for me to buy. I paid for shadowfail. Up until last Christmas I spent over $100 on double point bonus. I do use my points, but I will not just use them blindly and then restock as needed.

I am not against spending money, but it goes back to the old story. If the only thing Turbine is going to sell is workarounds to the barriers they purposely put in, I will keep my wallet shut. There are many other things Turbine can sell, but until they are willing to why should I be in a rush to spend?

I might have no idea what exactly got your goat with this, but, in most cases that "grind" or Barrier, is just playing the game, much like needing to earn XP to level, to anything else, it's want makes the game a journey, at the same time, there are people who want to bypass the "grind" and are willing to pay for it. It's pretty much a catch 22.

Some people really just want to play the game, they don't like the idea of running a raid a dozen times in a row for zero exp to farm for one item, they like the idea of "See you in 3 days" type of environment, it gives them something to look forward to in 3 days, and to them, that is worth more then a +1 to a stat.

I mean, maybe if you gave me more exactly situations I may see what you are saying, but right now, I am not getting the outage.

[TBot1234]

In fact I'm pretty sure that the works of Tolkien (spelling) are old enough to be considered public domain since he is deceased. There is a legal term for it which I don't know the exact name of.

In the United Kingdom that is more like 70 years after the death of the author. So, it wouldn't happen before 2043 and even then there are some conditions where it would not fully be public domain. I don't claim to be an expert on this.


Even if there is some living relative of his that has some rights to material created that are based off of his work...

There is...

As to your point, I agree that DDO is much less important to Turbine that LOTRO. I'm just glad that DDO is still important to a lot of players. As long as that number doesn't drop too much Turbine will likely try to keep the game alive and keep it as a source of income.

[Chai]

I might have no idea what exactly got your goat with this, but, in most cases that "grind" or Barrier, is just playing the game, much like needing to earn XP to level, to anything else, it's want makes the game a journey, at the same time, there are people who want to bypass the "grind" and are willing to pay for it. It's pretty much a catch 22.

Some people really just want to play the game, they don't like the idea of running a raid a dozen times in a row for zero exp to farm for one item, they like the idea of "See you in 3 days" type of environment, it gives them something to look forward to in 3 days, and to them, that is worth more then a +1 to a stat.

I mean, maybe if you gave me more exactly situations I may see what you are saying, but right now, I am not getting the outage.

So how are CoV "part of the journey"? We already had that journey in epics, leveling from 20-28, getting destiny xp etc. Acquiring CoV was purposely designed to not be synergistic with acquiring XP, and many people end up at 28 with a good portion of CoV needed to be ground out, or else....dun dun DUUUUNNNNN, they have to pay money for their eTR.

The idea of running a raid for 0 xp to get items to one crowd is just as unattractive as hitting 28 with maxed XP and having to grind more for CoV to another crowd. Obvious arbitrary barriers are obvious.

[Vint]

I might have no idea what exactly got your goat with this, but, in most cases that "grind" or Barrier, is just playing the game, much like needing to earn XP to level, to anything else, it's want makes the game a journey, at the same time, there are people who want to bypass the "grind" and are willing to pay for it. It's pretty much a catch 22.

Some people really just want to play the game, they don't like the idea of running a raid a dozen times in a row for zero exp to farm for one item, they like the idea of "See you in 3 days" type of environment, it gives them something to look forward to in 3 days, and to them, that is worth more then a +1 to a stat.

I mean, maybe if you gave me more exactly situations I may see what you are saying, but right now, I am not getting the outage.

I am not against the grind. What I am against is them removing detect secret door, among other things, and then selling it right back to us. All businesses need to make money, but if this is their grand effort to get my money, I am not buying.

If you can give me a good reason outside of money grab that DSD was taken out then I will go out and buy points right now.

[TBot1234]

If you can give me a good reason outside of money grab that DSD was taken out then I will go out and buy points right now.

Ya don't like this one, I bet:


Hidden doors and search skill become largely irrelevant at the higher levels of the game because the magic to reveal them is available at such low levels. Above level 5 to 8, you basically never end up using your spot or search skills to find hidden doors. Our quest makers place hidden doors in high level content, but if everyone can automatically see them, then those doors are not very “hidden”, in which case, what is the point of making them hidden at all?

[Vint]

Ya don't like this one, I bet:

This is not an explanation of why they sell the item in the store. This only shows the reasoning of why they took it out of the game. If they did not sell them in the store then it would be a different issue.

[danotmano1998]

To the general forums:
I think that promoting the golden rule, or that people try - once in a while - to pay back some of the kindnesses random strangers gave them when they were starting out was ill-conceived.


Not everyone missed the point.

Encouraging decency and kindness is never ill-conceived.

[Ungood]

If you can give me a good reason outside of money grab that DSD was taken out then I will go out and buy points right now.

I see the sore point.

Fair enough, as a player that was both hurt by this, but understood it, I'll take my stab at it.

When a Designer takes the time to make a dungeon, they build doors, traps, and the like, to watch a player just casually ignore all this with a single click and zero planning, seems rather defeating.

The Developer who worked on the Revamp, wanted the "Search" and "Spot" skills to mean something, to not just be wasted skills that could be circumvented with a click of a button by anyone, I think we can respect that feeling on things. It's rather cheesy that was the case to start with anyway.

So, they revised it, to make search and spot a more viable skill set. Nothing wrong with this. Putting in "hidden" levers or such, does not make Search and Spot a viable skill set, it simply moves the "lever" to open the door. The Goal here was to make Search an Spot worth investing into. Seems rather noble to be honest.

So, what about the store? Well, lets be real here, they could not just invalidate the money people spent, that would be bad, very bad, and insulting, and I think Turbine is learning that they can only spit in peoples faces like that for so long before people spit back in their face.

So, as opposed to debasing the people who already bought something from the store, they continued to make their TP purchase worth it.

Was it purely greed driven to make the change? No, it was done with the intention to make the some skill sets more viable in the end game, and that is a good thing. The revision to the store, was not designed to increase sales, but to protect the sales they already made.

In that front, it was way too much work for it to be anything but what they claimed it to be, an effort to make skills more viable, as it seems like way too much work to sell a few Detect Secret Doors clickies.

[Vint]

So, what about the store? Well, lets be real here, they could not just invalidate the money people spent, that would be bad, very bad, and insulting, and I think Turbine is learning that they can only spit in peoples faces like that for so long before people spit back in their face.

And this was my main objective. I am not harboring an old grudge or trying to punish Turbine, but it just irks me that they have done this sort of thing time and time again and many people here can’t figure out why it is irritating. I have no problem spending 20 tp, it is the fact that they remove something that was once free and then sell it right back to me.


In that front, it was way too much work for it to be anything but what they claimed it to be, an effort to make skills more viable, as it seems like way too much work to sell a few Detect Secret Doors clickies.

The change is something that I am not complaining about. I could see it being very frustrating for a dev to put time into a project and I whip out my clickie and find the door, all cheese. I have grown accustom to this and actually invest in search to an extent on some of my toons.

[Postumus]

I see the sore point.

Fair enough, as a player that was both hurt by this, but understood it, I'll take my stab at it.

When a Designer takes the time to make a dungeon, they build doors, traps, and the like, to watch a player just casually ignore all this with a single click and zero planning, seems rather defeating.




I think that is as good an explanation as any (and exactly what Purplefooz explained yet people dismiss for whatever reason). I get why some players feel inconvenienced, but DSD was an easy button and completely trivialized the entire concept of secret doors.


I do think they could have changed DSD and True Seeing to stack with existing search skills so players who don't want to invest a lot into search could still have a good shot at spotting the secret doors.

[Postumus]

The only MMO that was a real subscription success (and I don't mean get by making some profit) was WoW.


And now all indications are they will be going to a hybrid model with more microtransactions just like everyone else.

[Chai]

I see the sore point.

Fair enough, as a player that was both hurt by this, but understood it, I'll take my stab at it.

When a Designer takes the time to make a dungeon, they build doors, traps, and the like, to watch a player just casually ignore all this with a single click and zero planning, seems rather defeating.

The Developer who worked on the Revamp, wanted the "Search" and "Spot" skills to mean something, to not just be wasted skills that could be circumvented with a click of a button by anyone, I think we can respect that feeling on things. It's rather cheesy that was the case to start with anyway.

So, they revised it, to make search and spot a more viable skill set. Nothing wrong with this. Putting in "hidden" levers or such, does not make Search and Spot a viable skill set, it simply moves the "lever" to open the door. The Goal here was to make Search an Spot worth investing into. Seems rather noble to be honest.

So, what about the store? Well, lets be real here, they could not just invalidate the money people spent, that would be bad, very bad, and insulting, and I think Turbine is learning that they can only spit in peoples faces like that for so long before people spit back in their face.

So, as opposed to debasing the people who already bought something from the store, they continued to make their TP purchase worth it.

Was it purely greed driven to make the change? No, it was done with the intention to make the some skill sets more viable in the end game, and that is a good thing. The revision to the store, was not designed to increase sales, but to protect the sales they already made.

In that front, it was way too much work for it to be anything but what they claimed it to be, an effort to make skills more viable, as it seems like way too much work to sell a few Detect Secret Doors clickies.

I understand the point about traps, but if they dont want us all to just surpass them, then why sell us a way to do so in the first place. When selling us a way to do so, you have to realize how bad it looks to remove the way people can do it for free with an in game looted item. There are plenty of ways this could have been handled without removing the ability in game and then selling it back to us. If they want to make skills viable, there should not be a way to pay our way past having to use those skills after they removed the free way to bypass having to use those skills.

This to me is the same issue as claiming they cant make raid timers less on old raids due to "game balance" reasons, but then turn around and sell us a way to do it. They want skills in game to be legit? The explanation would hold alot more water if they didnt turn around and sell back to us, the free ability we once had.

[Gremmlynn]

Its an easy line in the sand to figure which side you stand on. Do you still log in and play DDO over any other game choice? If yes you must like the game, and if you do but go out of your way to justify not supporting it financially if you have fun money to burn, then your a hypocrite plain and simple. Because if your not spending, your opinion means nothing to the PTB.This is just silly. It's not my responsibility to see that Turbine makes money off me. It's my job to get as much out of what they offer for as little as possible and let Turbine make their money off those who fail at doing so.

[Vint]

This is just silly. It's not my responsibility to see that Turbine makes money off me. It's my job to get as much out of what they offer for as little as possible and let Turbine make their money off those who fail at doing so.

+1

[Gremmlynn]

So, what about the store? Well, lets be real here, they could not just invalidate the money people spent, that would be bad, very bad, and insulting, and I think Turbine is learning that they can only spit in peoples faces like that for so long before people spit back in their face.

So, as opposed to debasing the people who already bought something from the store, they continued to make their TP purchase worth it.

Was it purely greed driven to make the change? No, it was done with the intention to make the some skill sets more viable in the end game, and that is a good thing. The revision to the store, was not designed to increase sales, but to protect the sales they already made.

In that front, it was way too much work for it to be anything but what they claimed it to be, an effort to make skills more viable, as it seems like way too much work to sell a few Detect Secret Doors clickies.Except that the store version is a consumable. Simply allowing those already bought to keep working while removing it from the store to validate the reason they gave for making the change would have covered things.

Instead they decided that search and spot were important unless one was willing to buy their way around that obstacle.

[Ungood]

I understand the point about traps, but if they dont want us all to just surpass them, then why sell us a way to do so in the first place.

I viewed this as up there with poison&disease immunity. I am not saying I am a fan of what they did, only that I understand why they did it.


When selling us a way to do so, you have to realize how bad it looks to remove the way people can do it for free with an in game looted item. There are plenty of ways this could have been handled without removing the ability in game and then selling it back to us. If they want to make skills viable, there should not be a way to pay our way past having to use those skills after they removed the free way to bypass having to use those skills.

Nope, not quite the same, they ALWAYS sold it to us.

I view it as nothing more then a Bell of Opening vs a Knock Wand.

While next I will expect you to go off on some silly rant about how the level limit and UMD checks for Knock wands is to sell us bells of opening, which I will then write off as tin foil hat lunacy.

[Ungood]

Except that the store version is a consumable. Simply allowing those already bought to keep working while removing it from the store to validate the reason they gave for making the change would have covered things.

Instead they decided that search and spot were important unless one was willing to buy their way around that obstacle.

I dunno, maybe that just made it too easy for us to start with, I mean really, a no UMD check item that was like ML3, could find every door in the game, that had renewable charges (I think mine had 5 shots, between rests), that was sick and OPed by any standard, just because it was there when we started, does not mean it did not need a massive smash with the nerf bat since day one.

Come off it guys, that was a huge massive "Easy Button", and we all knew it, it really needed to get fixed at some time in the game, I am rather amazed they allowed it to last as long as they did. Personally, I would wager that it was a back burner project, because lets be real here, revamping the entire search and spot system is not worth the sale of a few consumables.

[Postumus]

I dunno, maybe that just made it too easy for us to start with, I mean really, a no UMD check item that was like ML3, could find every door in the game, that had renewable charges (I think mine had 5 shots, between rests), that was sick and OPed by any standard, just because it was there when we started, does not mean it did not need a massive smash with the nerf bat since day one.

Come off it guys, that was a huge massive "Easy Button", and we all knew it, it really needed to get fixed at some time in the game, I am rather amazed they allowed it to last as long as they did. Personally, I would wager that it was a back burner project, because lets be real here, revamping the entire search and spot system is not worth the sale of a few consumables.


The Cannith Crafted DSD goggles, which require no clicks/charges and are always on, can be ML1. Running through the game to level 25 using a ML1 item to detect every secret door in the game. Beyond easy button. Purplefooz was right; at that point why even have secret doors?

[Chai]

I viewed this as up there with poison&disease immunity. I am not saying I am a fan of what they did, only that I understand why they did it.



Nope, not quite the same, they ALWAYS sold it to us.

I view it as nothing more then a Bell of Opening vs a Knock Wand.

While next I will expect you to go off on some silly rant about how the level limit and UMD checks for Knock wands is to sell us bells of opening, which I will then write off as tin foil hat lunacy.

Selling the ability in the store that they removed from the game makes the game balance excuse leak so badly it has sivs around the world appreciating their ability to hold water. The fact that it was in the store beforehand is irrelevant. You write it off as tinfoil hat lunacy due to having no factual refutation of how hilarious the game balance excuse looks while they sell us circumvention of game balance.

One thing that holds true in MMOs, is the longer something lasts in game, the more irritated people will be when it gets nerfed. Skillful nerfing happens shortly after the problem occurs. Having DSD items in the game for ~6+ years and then nerfing them, as well as monks, paladins, and warforged having poison / disease immunities for 6+ years and then nerfing them, is hilarious.

[Chai]

The Cannith Crafted DSD goggles, which require no clicks/charges and are always on, can be ML1. Running through the game to level 25 using a ML1 item to detect every secret door in the game. Beyond easy button. Purplefooz was right; at that point why even have secret doors?

So instead of addressing the issue the first year of DDOs existance, they continually put items into the game, which is THEM creating THEIR OWN ISSUE - as you pointed out, years after the fact theres a crafting system put in that allows people to make the item. Skillful nerfing takes place shortly after the problem occurs, not 6+ years after the fact. Then on top of that they tell us its for game balance reasons, the entire time they are SELLING items that do the same thing.

[Chai]

I dunno, maybe that just made it too easy for us to start with, I mean really, a no UMD check item that was like ML3, could find every door in the game, that had renewable charges (I think mine had 5 shots, between rests), that was sick and OPed by any standard, just because it was there when we started, does not mean it did not need a massive smash with the nerf bat since day one.

Come off it guys, that was a huge massive "Easy Button", and we all knew it, it really needed to get fixed at some time in the game, I am rather amazed they allowed it to last as long as they did. Personally, I would wager that it was a back burner project, because lets be real here, revamping the entire search and spot system is not worth the sale of a few consumables.

Its a level one spell that one can buy piles of scrolls dirt cheap for. Next they will be nerfing fear immunity on GH spells. Oh wait....

[Ungood]

Selling the ability in the store that they removed from the game makes the game balance excuse leak so badly it has sivs around the world appreciating their ability to hold water. The fact that it was in the store beforehand is irrelevant. You write it off as tinfoil hat lunacy due to having no factual refutation of how hilarious the game balance excuse looks while they sell us circumvention of game balance.

No.. Chai.. I write it off as Tin Foil Hat Lunacy because things like it have already existed for years, and neither you nor anyone else looked upon those things as game breaking.

Truth is, to have the ability to ignore the need to search for Secret Doors should come with a cost, and items that allow people to bypass it should be in the store for people who want to solo or not need to wait around for someone with that specific skill set.

If you want to solo EE's and get every hidden door in the quest at the click of a button without any investment on your part, Oh, You SHOULD have to pay for that.

[Chai]

No.. Chai.. I write it off as Tin Foil Hat Lunacy because things like it have already existed for years, and neither you nor anyone else looked upon those things as game breaking.

This exactly supports my stance right here. NO ONE looked at them as game breaking for a LONG TIME, including the devs. And now, 7 years later, its game breaking?


Truth is, to have the ability to ignore the need to search for Secret Doors should come with a cost, and items that allow people to bypass it should be in the store for people who want to solo or not need to wait around for someone with that specific skill set.

This right here, takes the game balance excuse out behind he barn, and shoots it, twice. If you said there should be an in game cost im fine with it. Removing the free ability from the game that existed for 6 years, which they sell in the store, then telling us it was for game balance purposes, is a direct contradiction in logic.


If you want to solo EE's and get every hidden door in the quest at the click of a button without any investment on your part, Oh, You SHOULD have to pay for that.

I could do that anyway, with a pile of scrolls. No effort to get the UMD wil be needed. You get 8 points free for the 8 epic levels (soon to be 10), a GH brings it to 12, and a +10 cha item brings it to 17, +2 luck = 19. You always roll a 1 on a d20, so I will never score less than 20, even on a dumped cha full ****** fighter. Its a level 1 spell, its not OP in EE quests. Are you telling us all resistance clickies, expeditious clickies, and shield clickies are OP too, because those are also level 1 spells. Ohhh NOOOES magic missile immunity at no cost, what ever shall we dooooO!!!!! ZOMG korthos boots 25% strider for no cost....arrrrgghhh!!! :p :p :p :p :p

If you wanted to complain the game is too monte haul, you are late, by about 7 years.