Update on New Divine Epic Destiny

[Piloto]

Thanks everyone for your interest and input on last month’s post on the new Divine Epic Destiny. Based on your feedback, we’ve made some changes to our design, and we’d like to share with you where things are headed for this new destiny.

Some of the key suggestions we gathered so far from last month’s thread:
1. Having the new destiny be melee centric to the exclusion of other niches like spellcasting may be undesirable.
2. Including a boost to Divine Spell DCs would be great.
3. Making some changes and improvements to Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel would be most welcome.

In addition to the above suggestions, another idea that many seemed to like was this:
4. Substantially reworking the two existing divine destinies to allow for the new destiny to be a pure offensive divine caster.

I’ll speak to number 4 first. This idea has some merit, but… it would require a lot of time and, more importantly, a lot more time than we actually have to work on destinies for the near and midterm future. We’ve got a full schedule of other improvements, and a major rework of multiple destinies is too big a task to fit in. So instead of doing this, we’re going to tackle the other suggestions on the above list. By acting on these, we think we should be able to address some of the concerns that made people suggest number 4, because there is some good overlap between them.

To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest. This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities.

In order to address point 3, we’d also like to make a set of changes to the other two divine epic destinies to adjust their roles and amplify their power level. While this will definitely amount to less than a complete reworking of these trees, we hope to be able to go through the trees and make several changes for the better. Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel.

As we get closer to filling out the new destiny’s tree, we’ll be looking at this thread (as well as back through the 14 pages of the original thread) to see if we can incorporate any more of your ideas. Thanks again for your input.

[aristarchus1000]

Thanks for the update!

Even if it doesn't become uber-popular, a fun destiny for grinding divine karma would be a welcome change.

[rosedarkthorn]

Looking forward to the new tree, especially if it's going to be a bit like Warpriest, which I found really fun on my Favored Soul. Thanks for the update!

[cave_diver]

Personally, if a tree in the divine destiny is not purely targeted to caster divines it will be a fail IMO.

[Shorlong]

Personally, if a tree in the divine destiny is not purely targeted to caster divines it will be a fail IMO.

Because Primal Avatar, a hybrid destiny between casting and melee, was such a huge fail, right?

Seriously, I see this as being a good thing, hoping it comes out good!

[CaptainSpacePony]

I’ll speak to number 4 first. This idea has some merit, but… it would require a lot of time and, more importantly, a lot more time than we actually have to work on destinies for the near and midterm future. We’ve got a full schedule of other improvements, and a major rework of multiple destinies is too big a task to fit in. So instead of doing this, we’re going to tackle the other suggestions on the above list. By acting on these, we think we should be able to address some of the concerns that made people suggest number 4, because there is some good overlap between them.

To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest. This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities.

In order to address point 3, we’d also like to make a set of changes to the other two divine epic destinies to adjust their roles and amplify their power level. While this will definitely amount to less than a complete reworking of these trees, we hope to be able to go through the trees and make several changes for the better. Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel.


Fair enough. That being said, I think the divine DC bump should be an exalted angel trait, since it will be the "casting" tree (modeled on FvS at that) in the sphere.

[Teh_Troll]

Give it Adrenaline and I'll be happy.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Because Primal Avatar, a hybrid destiny between casting and melee, was such a huge fail, right?

Seriously, I see this as being a good thing, hoping it comes out good!

I too see this as a good thing, but yeah, I think Primal Avatar, while fun and interesting, is pretty underpowered.

[Vellrad]

Because Primal Avatar, a hybrid destiny between casting and melee, was such a huge fail, right?

Seriously, I see this as being a good thing, hoping it comes out good!

Primal avatar, ED good only for twisting cocoon?

[Teh_Troll]

Primal avatar, ED good only for twisting cocoon?

Well . . . it WAS awesome before they nerfed treetarding.

[Vellrad]

To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest.

I think we're looking at entirely different warpriests.
Because the one in game is not a hybrid. This tree don't have anything in common with casting.

[Shorlong]

I too see this as a good thing, but yeah, I think Primal Avatar, while fun and interesting, is pretty underpowered.

On my archer druid, when I had to switch to melee (dual wield scimies), I got higher dps out of Primal than I did out of anything else. The lighting attack on melee hits was fantastic. And for casting druids, it's pretty fantastic as well, especially if you are using your summons and wolf as well.

(note: I am saying this from the perspective of a person who might be playing on EH at max, your average player who isn't grinding out destinies. I am fully aware that destiny a is more powerful than destiny b and if you don't splash monk you are gimp.)

[Lonnbeimnech]

I think we're looking at entirely different warpriests.
Because the one in game is not a hybrid. This tree don't have anything in common with casting.

It gives some token fire spell power in its core...

[Lonnbeimnech]

Give it Adrenaline and I'll be happy.

Give it smites that hit like adrenaline, that would also give paladins a reason to take more than 2 levels.

[Kaytis]

Here is a good yardstick: if any of the changes are attractive enough to entice my FVS out of Shiradi, you are on the right track. My FVS is caster focused, I don't do anything with melee except smack the occasional stubborn mob that refused to yield his last 10 hit points to my spells.

[redspecter23]

I know it was probably mentioned in the other thread but it's important to repeat. Unyielding Sentinel currently has a few problems.

1. The current metagame doesn't require tanks to be effective and this destiny is almost all defense.

2. AC isn't needed for EH and isn't enough to make defense viable in EE making any buffs to AC almost meaningless, especially at the cost being the exclusion of another dps oriented destiny instead.

3. Lots of PRR is a good thing, but even without Unyielding Sentinel and it's bonuses a defensively built toon can still get very close to the 50% mitigation soft cap that PRR provides. This means that a toon already specced in defense gains no more than a few % points worth of PRR gains from anything in sentinel. Any PRR bonuses in the tree don't help a defensive toon enough to justify the cost of not being in a dps tree instead.

4. There have been improvements in the past to shield fighting, but it's still not quite there yet. Too many abilities rely on "actively shield blocking" You've already paid the price just by strapping on that board and decreased your dps. Make a move away from actively shield blocking as an ability prerequisite and simply having the shield equipped.

5. Explore options that relieve the huge opportunity cost that medium and heavy armor have in that they "turn off" evasion and lower your dodge cap. If you could come up with a comparable buff that requires medium or heavy armor, you'd make it easier to go that route and proxy nerf the massive power that 2 or 6 levels of monk currently provides compared to other options. Make players want to wear heavy armor instead of just throwing on light armor or robes and receiving not only the same defensive benefits (mostly due to diminishing returns) with evasion as the ultimate defensive bonus as well. At this point, even toons specced heavily in the defensive trees are hard pressed not to just splash 2 monk and use lighter armor. They really don't lose much compared to what they gain.

[Derana]

oh well, i'm hoping for the best.

[Atremus]

Thanks for the update. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

[Wipey]

Personally, if a tree in the divine destiny is not purely targeted to caster divines it will be a fail IMO.
I know right ? Because melee and casting "hybrid" works oh so well in toughest content.
That's why most clerics or fvs turned to smacking mobs with pointy things or Pinions or TRed to wizzies or druids ( okay one is monkcher now ).

How about you :
FIX THE IMPLOSION so it doesn't target NPCs or your party members.
Raise the cap on direct damage spells like BB or DP.
Make turning actually useful.
Earthquake for divines because you know, you can't actually get meaningful DCs on symbols, commands or comets unless you gimp your primary school.

Or not. If it's half arsed casting, half melee " hybrid", congratulations, another step to effectively eliminating castery divines from game cause that seems to be the trend since Motu.

[Satyriasys]

Thanks everyone for your interest and input on last month’s post on the new Divine Epic Destiny. Based on your feedback, we’ve made some changes to our design, and we’d like to share with you where things are headed for this new destiny.

Some of the key suggestions we gathered so far from last month’s thread:
1. Having the new destiny be melee centric to the exclusion of other niches like spellcasting may be undesirable.
2. Including a boost to Divine Spell DCs would be great.
3. Making some changes and improvements to Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel would be most welcome.

In addition to the above suggestions, another idea that many seemed to like was this:
4. Substantially reworking the two existing divine destinies to allow for the new destiny to be a pure offensive divine caster.

I’ll speak to number 4 first. This idea has some merit, but… it would require a lot of time and, more importantly, a lot more time than we actually have to work on destinies for the near and midterm future. We’ve got a full schedule of other improvements, and a major rework of multiple destinies is too big a task to fit in. So instead of doing this, we’re going to tackle the other suggestions on the above list. By acting on these, we think we should be able to address some of the concerns that made people suggest number 4, because there is some good overlap between them.

To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest. This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities.

In order to address point 3, we’d also like to make a set of changes to the other two divine epic destinies to adjust their roles and amplify their power level. While this will definitely amount to less than a complete reworking of these trees, we hope to be able to go through the trees and make several changes for the better. Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel.

As we get closer to filling out the new destiny’s tree, we’ll be looking at this thread (as well as back through the 14 pages of the original thread) to see if we can incorporate any more of your ideas. Thanks again for your input.

Put this on hold until you can do it right. Theres no point in adding new stuff to the game unless you're prepared to do it properly.
Also, spellcasting is not a niche.

[WiseFreelancer]

1. Having the new destiny be melee centric to the exclusion of other niches like spellcasting may be undesirable.


This may have come up - but given that the Longbow is a favoured weapon (of which there are so few) can we ask that some (if not all) melee focused abilities worked with ranged as well? I get that balance-wise this isn't always easy, but ranged toons get shafted a bit by most weapon-focused destinies, and before anyone brings up Fury - well, a decent, definitely WAI alternative to Shiradi would be appreciated.

[SirValentine]

It sounds like...

1) They wanted to do a melee tree, so they're still going to
2) They don't want bother fixing under-powered existing EDs, so they're not going to
3) We complained about under-powered existing EDs, so they're going to make some token changes to shut us up
4) We said we wanted DCs, so they're going to randomly throw a token DC boost into the melee tree to shut us up
5) We said that a caster tree was more needed than yet another melee tree, so they decided to call the new melee tree a "hybrid" to shut us up

Am I wrong?

Is the main issue development time? If so, my suggestion:

1) Don't waste anyone's time with an unattractive mishmish ED
2) Table the new ED entirely for now, until you actually have the resources to do it right
3) Spend the resources you were going to use developing a new ED for fixing the existing EDs

And, as was said in the other thread, there's already several good melee EDs out there, but no good divine caster ED out there at all.

[Silverleafeon]

Innate ~ choose a weapon, that weapon is considered a favored weapon for your deity.

[GoldyGopher]

Piloto I am going to respond in line.


Thanks everyone for your interest and input on last month’s post on the new Divine Epic Destiny. Based on your feedback, we’ve made some changes to our design, and we’d like to share with you where things are headed for this new destiny.

Improvements are good, change is not always improvement. Since we did not see the initial design in its entirety it hard to say if these changes are improvements.


Some of the key suggestions we gathered so far from last month’s thread:
1. Having the new destiny be melee centric to the exclusion of other niches like spellcasting may be undesirable.
I think you have misunderstood what players have requested. The Divine Sphere needs two more Epic Destines to fill out the generic or different roles that perceive or want to use. In addition we would like to see the other two destinies get some attention so they can truly fill their niche in the Epic Destiny Sphere. In essence many players feel a DC based Divine Casting Tree would be more useful than a second melee tree.


2. Including a boost to Divine Spell DCs would be great.
Watering down a melee centric design to add a few caster tweeks is not what players wanted.


3. Making some changes and improvements to Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel would be most welcome.
This is very true.
And I think is the most import aspect to our feedback.
The Unyielding Sentinel, at least on paper, sounds like it could be the most useful ED in the game, the problem is it barely useful and something player level in because "they have to."
I still to this day scratch my head when looking at the Exalted Angel and wonder what was the "original" plan with this ED and how did it stray so far a field.
As I prepare for my fourth ER in Divine Sphere I am very aware of the shortcomings in both. I keep telling myself only 9 more to go.



In addition to the above suggestions, another idea that many seemed to like was this:
4. Substantially reworking the two existing divine destinies to allow for the new destiny to be a pure offensive divine caster.
This I think was almost universal in agreement.


I’ll speak to number 4 first. This idea has some merit, but… it would require a lot of time and, more importantly, a lot more time than we actually have to work on destinies for the near and midterm future. We’ve got a full schedule of other improvements, and a major rework of multiple destinies is too big a task to fit in. So instead of doing this, we’re going to tackle the other suggestions on the above list. By acting on these, we think we should be able to address some of the concerns that made people suggest number 4, because there is some good overlap between them.
You have just prepared the forumites for a failure. Regardless of how well or poorly it turns out it will most likely be perceived as a failure.


To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest. This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities.
Please don't.


In order to address point 3, we’d also like to make a set of changes to the other two divine epic destinies to adjust their roles and amplify their power level. While this will definitely amount to less than a complete reworking of these trees, we hope to be able to go through the trees and make several changes for the better. Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel.
In multiple places the players have offered "dozens" of small changes to both of the two divine (and to a certain aspect all of the Epic Destines) that would greatly improve the game play of these destines. Well I won't rehash all of them here, this is what players really want, small changes that may not solve all of the destines problems but make them "useful" in terms of game play.



As we get closer to filling out the new destiny’s tree, we’ll be looking at this thread (as well as back through the 14 pages of the original thread) to see if we can incorporate any more of your ideas. Thanks again for your input.
Give us what you have no and let us start making suggestions to allow the group here, who have a heartfelt [dang I forgot the word I wanted to use] incentive [hope that works] to get it right.

[Silverleafeon]

If you took the Magistar Tree as an example and removed the sigils off the left side,
you could add, melee stuff in its place easily.

[Silverleafeon]

By the way, for those of you wanting to influence future situations like this, perhaps apply here:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/434262-Introducing-The-DDO-Players-Council!

[SirValentine]

In order to address point 3, we’d also like to make a set of changes to the other two divine epic destinies to adjust their roles and amplify their power level. While this will definitely amount to less than a complete reworking of these trees, we hope to be able to go through the trees and make several changes for the better. Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel.


Since you're not going to rework it, a couple relatively easy changes for Exalted Angel:
- Massively lower the cool-down on the Epic Moment, and scrap the requirement of being dead to get the benefits from it.
- Add an Archon, or as someone else suggested, vastly lower the charge requirements for the abilities based off Blood and Radiance. Right now it's only practical to use for a FvS.
- Throw some DC boosts here, maybe passives in the core abilities so they can't be twisted. They really belong more here than in a melee ED, "hybrid" or not.

[Silverleafeon]

All is not lost, if the Devs are willing to significantly boost EA and US in such a way that does not require tons of coding...

[SirValentine]

All is not lost, if the Devs are willing to significantly boost EA and US in such a way that does not require tons of coding...

Well, we can certainly hope. Thought it sounded like all they want to give EA is a spellpower boost and more healing. Nothing for DCs, better CC or debuffing options, whatever.

[Wizza]

So, instead of fixing US, EA, Magister, Primal Avatar etc etc because it takes you "too much time", you'd rather go on with your schedule and make a new mixed melee/spellcasting ED that will likely suck just as much as Primal Avatar. Awesome.

This tree better have some goddamn good ability like Master's Blitz, Fury Epic moment, Dragon Breath or the old bugged Treetard or you will have wasted just as much time.

Oh, did I already tell you that I'd rather you FIX THE OLD EDs than making a new one?

[SirValentine]

Some of the key suggestions we gathered so far from last month’s thread:
1. Having the new destiny be melee centric to the exclusion of other niches like spellcasting may be undesirable.


Actually, I think the suggestion was a lot stronger than that: there's several good melee EDs already, but ZERO good divine caster EDs.



4. Substantially reworking the two existing divine destinies to allow for the new destiny to be a pure offensive divine caster.


Not necessarily the new one. Reworking one of the existing EDs to allow it to BE a decent offensive caster ED would work, too.

Really, either make Exalted Angel more of a caster ED, or make the new divine ED a caster ED.

[Teh_Troll]

Am I wrong?



You're premature. We need to see what it is in details to flame it properly.

[Silverleafeon]

Change this


Astral Vibrance: Active Ability: (Cooldown 10 seconds) Toggle While you are above 50% Health enemies below 50% health take 1d4 light damage every 2 seconds, increasing by 1d4 every 2 seconds they remain in your aura (up to 20d4 per 2 seconds), and nearby allies below 50% health receive 1d4 positive healing every 2 seconds increasing by 1d4 every 2 seconds they remain in your aura (up to 20d4 per 2 seconds). Costs 1 sp per 2 second, increasing by 1 every 2 seconds when active.

EDP Cost: 0 Ranks: Automatic Progression: 8 No requirements


To this:


Astral Vibrance: Active Ability: (Cooldown 10 seconds) Toggle While you are above 50% Health enemies below 50% health take 1d4 light damage every 2 seconds, increasing by 1d4 every 2 seconds they remain in your aura (up to 20d4 per 2 seconds), and nearby allies below 50% health receive 1d4 positive healing every 2 seconds increasing by 1d4 every 2 seconds they remain in your aura (up to 20d4 per 2 seconds). Costs ZERO sp per 2 second, increasing by ZERO every 2 seconds when active.

EDP Cost: 0 Ranks: Automatic Progression: 8 No requirements



Reduce all stack requirements by 80~90%


Reduce epic moment cooldown to 10 minutes and have it apply all effects regardless if recently died or not.

Apply quicken to divine wrath

Reduce sp costs and cooldown of Judgement and Lay to Rest


Throw in DC and/or spell pen and/or reduced spell cost and/or whatever inside non twistable spots.

[red_cardinal]

I don't care much what you do, but the dumbest things are constant value limits, like 1000 HP one on Divine retribution. The only thing that makes offensive Paladins have instakill ability has a dumb 1000 HP limit. If that's your policy in class design, then put 1000 HP limit on everything instakill - Finger of death, Wail, Destruction, etc.

IMHO, that limit shouldn't exist at all. Leave it on Vorpal weapons, but not on the only thing which makes a pally cool.

[Grizzt14]

Thanks everyone for your interest and input on last month’s post on the new Divine Epic Destiny. Based on your feedback, we’ve made some changes to our design, and we’d like to share with you where things are headed for this new destiny.

Some of the key suggestions we gathered so far from last month’s thread:
1. Having the new destiny be melee centric to the exclusion of other niches like spellcasting may be undesirable.
2. Including a boost to Divine Spell DCs would be great.
3. Making some changes and improvements to Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel would be most welcome.

In addition to the above suggestions, another idea that many seemed to like was this:
4. Substantially reworking the two existing divine destinies to allow for the new destiny to be a pure offensive divine caster.

I’ll speak to number 4 first. This idea has some merit, but… it would require a lot of time and, more importantly, a lot more time than we actually have to work on destinies for the near and midterm future. We’ve got a full schedule of other improvements, and a major rework of multiple destinies is too big a task to fit in. So instead of doing this, we’re going to tackle the other suggestions on the above list. By acting on these, we think we should be able to address some of the concerns that made people suggest number 4, because there is some good overlap between them.

To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest. This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities.

In order to address point 3, we’d also like to make a set of changes to the other two divine epic destinies to adjust their roles and amplify their power level. While this will definitely amount to less than a complete reworking of these trees, we hope to be able to go through the trees and make several changes for the better. Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel.

As we get closer to filling out the new destiny’s tree, we’ll be looking at this thread (as well as back through the 14 pages of the original thread) to see if we can incorporate any more of your ideas. Thanks again for your input.

Honestly, while I know it isn't directly tied to a new Divine ED, many of the EDs could probably be reworked or patched in places to be more effective at their intended roles beyond Unyielding Sent and Exalted Angel. GoMF comes to mind (EiN got nerfed to the point I haven't seen many around period, but the tree is fairly lack luster outside of EiN and it's dependent abilities and GoMF as a whole matches up quite poorly with non-Wis based monks.), Fury could use a smaller boost to even out competition with LD on the melee front and as well as reworks to other EDs, but thats a topic for another thread.

Without seeing an overview of the ED, I'd just be wary about making an ED with the goal of working well in two seperate and exclusive aspects of combat. For example, most melees/ranged even with divine classes probably care little for their spell casting DC since they plain to do damage via weapons and vice versa. The EDs that have been largely successful in game (LD, Shiradi, DI, Fury w/ Ranged) are devoted to improving one aspect of a character, whether it is melee prowess, spell casting abilities or ranged damage and procs. My concern is that by building an ED designed to "wear two different pairs of shoes" you may design an ED that will fit neither.

[jakeelala]

Triple the bonuses from Core levels in both US and EA.

At tiers 5 and 6, double any beneficial effects, and halve and negative effects of all ED abilities.

Then create any new ED you want. But people still probably wont play US and EA, since they'll still be under-powered. However, for niche builds and uses, they will be the best thing. It also stops you from making all of their best things twistable, which is partly why they are never played now.

[Mellkor]

I dont think unyielding sentinel and exalted angel need much tweaking to meet idea #4 in the OP. I strongly suggest making the new destiny purely offensive casting focused, make unyielding sentinel melee and sword and board focused (already is, just needs a bit more melee power, IMO to be perfect), and make exalted angel just a bit more healing and spell effiviency oriented (again, already is somewhat in this state, just needs a small amount of tweaking to "fix" it, IMO).

Trying to make a destiny cover both offensive casting s a mistake, IMO, since in my experience you are usually one or the other. Offensive casting focused divines and melee focused divines just do not work well together. I would rather *gasp* wait until you CAN put proper resources into it to make it right the first time. You would probably be better off just making small improvements to sentinel and exalted angel as a crutch for now.

[oradafu]

In addition to the above suggestions, another idea that many seemed to like was this:
4. Substantially reworking the two existing divine destinies to allow for the new destiny to be a pure offensive divine caster.

I’ll speak to number 4 first. This idea has some merit, but… it would require a lot of time and, more importantly, a lot more time than we actually have to work on destinies for the near and midterm future. We’ve got a full schedule of other improvements, and a major rework of multiple destinies is too big a task to fit in. So instead of doing this, we’re going to tackle the other suggestions on the above list. By acting on these, we think we should be able to address some of the concerns that made people suggest number 4, because there is some good overlap between them.



This excuse sounds an awful lot like what players were hearing during the Enhancement pass.

Players pointed out how the power of the trees were pushed out of the core abilities and into the low level of the trees. The excuse was so that all players could access the power, especially since alot of the abilities were class and not prestige abilities. But multiclasses got a choice of 6 trees, instead of the original 3 and the Devs didn't adjust any of the upper Core Abilities or Capstones.

Additionally, besides the Protection tree, the Devs ignored players input about the trees being bad. Fighter and Paladin trees are the two classes that really stick out for me as needing to be totally reworked. Yet the Devs ignored players. Just like it looks like the Devs are ignoring exactly how horrible the Divine Sphere is right now.

Both the weak Core Abilities and Capstones and bad trees for Fighters and Paladins still exist 5 months after its release (with about 2 additional months of player input on Lamannia), and still nothing has been done about those things. Pushing things off isn't helping the game.

[rest]

No divine +DC destiny? Well this is going to be awful. AND you're calling it a "hybrid" like Warpriest? How is warpriest a hybrid? It's almost exclusively a melee tree.

Ugh.

[Braegan]

Thanks everyone for your interest and input on last month’s post on the new Divine Epic Destiny. Based on your feedback, we’ve made some changes to our design, and we’d like to share with you where things are headed for this new destiny.

Some of the key suggestions we gathered so far from last month’s thread:
1. Having the new destiny be melee centric to the exclusion of other niches like spellcasting may be undesirable.
2. Including a boost to Divine Spell DCs would be great.
3. Making some changes and improvements to Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel would be most welcome.

To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest. This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities.


First, thank you for keeping us updated on what's in the works.

I am a bit suprised by the decision to make the new divine ed a hybrid when it seemeed to me very overwhelmly that a dc based caster was called for by the majority. I will wait until more details are provided before giving up on this ED, however.

My concern, that you did address, is mainly about it being not very good in either thing it wants to do. Up until motu my main was a melee soul, wisdom based hybrid. It worked very well, perhaps not uber or to FoTMthy, but worked well. Since motu and thresholds for DCs and SP checks raising without an even close equal to raising of divine casters casting abilities, my hybrid was mostly useless. Currently a str based, war priest, no dc fvs...and I dislike it. The build is fine, executes well, was mostly well received by those that posted on the build thread. But, to me it just feels wrong to be a divine and have zero casting ability. I was looking forward to this new ED as something that would fix my favorite character. Perhaps, if this ED is done right it could do so in ways I was ready to give up on.

With alot of experience in the past of playing a hybrid, wis based melee soul and a cleric version some things I would like to see:

Caster Side of Things:
- Stat choices to the right are Wisdom and Charisma (more melee elect Cha for stronger Divine Might)
- A +1/+2/+3 DC increase to school of choice. If not of choice, give a choice of Necromancy and Evocation
- A +1/+2/+3 Spell Pen
- An augmentation to decrease cooldowns of spells from chosen school
- A high tier option to grant either or both a way to debuff or Crowd Control. Divines lack this in tougher content, this is a good place to put something in to combat that.

Melee Side of Things:
- Melee Smites that do something COOL! It doesn't have to do as much damage as adrenaline (and shouldn't IMO) but it should do something more then just +x W. Perhaps Blinded/Paralyzed/Struck Helpless
- Weapons gain Shattermantle (lower SR)
- Weapons gain Shaken (lower saves)
- Weapon of Choice becomes Favored Weapon
- +.5 Power Attack
- Maybe a PRR boost (5/10/15)
- Haste Boost! Haste Boost! Haste Boost!
- Divine Rage, maybe higher tier stack and work kind of like skaldic rage spend SP to gain +4 Str/Con. *Does NOT impede spell casting.

Core Levels (0- 5)
To be a proper hybrid I'd suggest the following:

Every other core grant one then the other:

- Increase to caster levels for SP, mana, etc. Perhaps some nifty Slas along the way (0,2,4)

- +1 hit/damage, +10 hp (1,3,5)

That's all I have for now, I'll post more if I think of anything else.

Edit to add: I realize all together that seems like alot of OP goodness! But, remember you don't have enough points to be able to take more then half of a given ED.

[SirValentine]

- A high tier option to grant either or both a way to debuff or Crowd Control. Divines lack this in tougher content, this is a good place to put something in to combat that.


Though I don't object to having something like that in an ED, a simpler way to do it would be to take a certain CC spell, already implemented in the game, that should be on the Clr/FvS spell list, and actually put it on the Clr/FvS spell list.

[Snapdragoon]

Also, spellcasting is not a niche.

I saw that and thought it explained a lot of things really XD

[Silverleafeon]

Went shopping and had a brainstorm, probably something the devs have already thought about:


Take this:

http://ddowiki.com/images/Ascendance_Icon.jpg

Ascendance: Active Ability: (Cooldown 5mins) Transformation Assume angelic form (type outsider good, angel) . Any time you cast light damage spell, chance to gain temporary spell points. Any time you cast single target cure spells on a target, chance to give the target temporary HP. Any time you smite an enemy, chance to gain temporary HP. Your Angelic Presence and Astral Vibrance abilities do not have health requirements while in Angelic form. Astral Vibrance has no spell point drain while you are in Angelic form. Duration 2 minutes. Costs 50SP.


EDP Cost: 0 Ranks: Automatic Progression: 20 No requirements


and change one small part of the code:
Duration 2 minutes become duration 10 minutes

Ascendance: Active Ability: (Cooldown 5mins) Transformation Assume angelic form (type outsider good, angel) . Any time you cast light damage spell, chance to gain temporary spell points. Any time you cast single target cure spells on a target, chance to give the target temporary HP. Any time you smite an enemy, chance to gain temporary HP. Your Angelic Presence and Astral Vibrance abilities do not have health requirements while in Angelic form. Astral Vibrance has no spell point drain while you are in Angelic form. Duration 10 minutes. Costs 50SP.


Suddenly, you can have astral vibrance on all the at time.
This should grant a light and heal type archon effect, gaining stacks in a passive manner.
I think that should solve the stack problem.
This would help with spell points.
This would grant a power boost.


This would leave you with following to consider:

Divine Wrath tends to lose its target due to extreme slow casting time.
Solution, allow targeting allies/ground/self and~or allow quicken to be applied.

The capstone needs work.
Simply changing the capstone to have a cool down of 5~10 minutes would greatly help.

There is no spell pen or dc boosts in the epic destiny.
Not sure what to say here.



For reference:


http://ddowiki.com/images/Astral_Vibrance_Icon.jpg

Astral Vibrance: Active Ability: (Cooldown 10 seconds) Toggle While you are above 50% Health enemies below 50% health take 1d4 light damage every 2 seconds, increasing by 1d4 every 2 seconds they remain in your aura (up to 20d4 per 2 seconds), and nearby allies below 50% health receive 1d4 positive healing every 2 seconds increasing by 1d4 every 2 seconds they remain in your aura (up to 20d4 per 2 seconds). Costs 1 sp per 2 second, increasing by 1 every 2 seconds when active.

EDP Cost: 0 Ranks: Automatic Progression: 8 No requirements


I have actually finished out of a quest, forgot to turn this off and found myself almost completely without spell points while selling, repairing, and buffing as an epic character. Its quite a hassle turning it on and off in combat at the same time as ascendance, sometime the clicks are on cool down.



Also for reference:

http://ddowiki.com/images/Reborn_in_Light_Icon.jpg

Reborn in Light Epic Moment: Active Ability: (Cooldown 30mins) Each time you gain Endless Ardor or Righteous Fervor you gain a counter. When it reaches 50, ability becomes available. Epic Moment Transformation: You are healed to full health and activate Ascendance, Angelic Presence, and Astral Vibrance--even if they are currently on cooldown. For 2 minutes (or until you leave Angelic form), you are immune to light damage, gain 50% Incorporeality, and gain +100 Light and Healing Power. This ability can be used while dead, bringing you back at full health and in addition to the above benefits, the cooldowns of Light and Positive Energy spells are reduced to 1/5th normal, all spells cost 50% spell points. All of your physical attacks gain On Hit 100 Light damage and On Critical destroy evil undead or evil outsiders under 1000 hit points.

EDP Cost: 2 Ranks: 1 Progression: 20 Requires: Blood and Radiance 1



My recommendations,

Ascendance duration raised from 2 to 10 minutes, allowing Astral Vibrance to be useful and become a hallmark of the destiny.
Quicken applied to Divine Wrath, allowing it to be consistent.
Reborn in light cool down dropped from 30 to 5 minutes, granting a power boost and gaining a hallmark trait for this destiny.

This quickly and easily trundles up Exalted Angel, imho...


As far as anyone worrying that this will make the epic destiny a agro magnet, Favored Souls are very, very used to that. When Fawn is in the Fall of Truth raid, she naturally drifts to the center when the spectral dragons appear, knowing her auras will attract them anyway.

[Silverleafeon]

I am going to assume that the new warpriest type epic destiny has something very hot in it like:

Level 3 innate: Any weapons you wield are considered your diety's favored weapon.


Thereby addressing the whole cleric lore situation in one fell swoop.

[rosedarkthorn]

This may have come up - but given that the Longbow is a favoured weapon (of which there are so few) can we ask that some (if not all) melee focused abilities worked with ranged as well? I get that balance-wise this isn't always easy, but ranged toons get shafted a bit by most weapon-focused destinies, and before anyone brings up Fury - well, a decent, definitely WAI alternative to Shiradi would be appreciated.

Agreed, considering that my cleric currently uses longbows. This would be very much appreciated.

[Silverleafeon]

My toon often forgets to push Ascendancy.

Why?

Healers are very distracted.
They spend most of their time watching red bars, which leave far less time than normal for looking at cool downs.
Therefore a more forgiving approach to cool down in Exalted Angel would be appreciated.

I would be the first to admit I would love to see a DC boost in angel, but having a 4~5 minute cool down on reborn would
make the epic destiny more like a sorcerer. I like the suggestion of lower spell point costs, perhaps a tier 5 ~ 10% discount?

[Arlathen]

Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel.

http://nooooooooooooooo.com/vader.jpg

Seriously, take care what you do with Exalted Angel here. While I whole-heartedly agree it needs some work, please remember that there are some Paladins out there using this destiny for Melee, Healing & Utility. And what's cooler than being a Paladin that can change into an Angel, leap about with Wings, 'Strike Down' his enemies with glorious Light-powered strikes and healing with Renewal? Seriously. My ESOS Paladin really enjoys some of the aspects of this destiny.

I'll take some time to think through and post some suggestions on improvements for Exalted Angel, but this is my kneejerk reaction :)

[Braegan]

Though I don't object to having something like that in an ED, a simpler way to do it would be to take a certain CC spell, already implemented in the game, that should be on the Clr/FvS spell list, and actually put it on the Clr/FvS spell list.

I'd welcome that as it's a long overdue, overlooked slight.

[Silverleafeon]

I'd welcome that as it's a long overdue, overlooked slight.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm

[Silverleafeon]

Testing out Astral Vibrance

Every two seconds it costs 1+x sp where x is the last cost.
It got up to -75 per two second before it turned itself off because of zero sp.


It does not damage foes over half health, and it does not heal allies over half health.
Its hard to test it, turning it off and on with the terrible spell cost.

[soloist12]

It sounds like...

1) They wanted to do a melee tree, so they're still going to
2) They don't want bother fixing under-powered existing EDs, so they're not going to
3) We complained about under-powered existing EDs, so they're going to make some token changes to shut us up
4) We said we wanted DCs, so they're going to randomly throw a token DC boost into the melee tree to shut us up
5) We said that a caster tree was more needed than yet another melee tree, so they decided to call the new melee tree a "hybrid" to shut us up

Am I wrong?

Is the main issue development time? If so, my suggestion:

1) Don't waste anyone's time with an unattractive mishmish ED
2) Table the new ED entirely for now, until you actually have the resources to do it right
3) Spend the resources you were going to use developing a new ED for fixing the existing EDs

And, as was said in the other thread, there's already several good melee EDs out there, but no good divine caster ED out there at all.


Sums up my thoughts exactly.

[EllisDee37]

I’ll speak to number 4 first. This idea has some merit, but… it would require a lot of time and, more importantly, a lot more time than we actually have to work on destinies for the near and midterm future. We’ve got a full schedule of other improvements, and a major rework of multiple destinies is too big a task to fit in.In that case, I respectfully request that you shelve plans for a third divine destiny altogether until you do have enough time to give the sphere a proper re-work. This new direction you've described, where you're turning Exalted Angel from the de-facto divine DC destiny into a healbot tree and then creating a new third caster/melee hybrid tree, this direction sounds poor. What's worse, implementing this new hybrid tree will further entrench the divine sphere, meaning it would take even more work to properly fix than it would take now. Which means it will never be properly fixed.

This is an unfortunate, disheartening update, but I appreciate the communication at least. Very sad panda. (And the cynic in me expects that this new destiny will fail to include both wisdom as a stat choice and spell penetration per tier for divines. Both are of course required for any caster destiny, which is why Exalted is the de-facto divine caster destiny. It's the only one that offers both.)

[EllisDee37]

To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest. This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities.

In order to address point 3, we’d also like to make a set of changes to the other two divine epic destinies to adjust their roles and amplify their power level. While this will definitely amount to less than a complete reworking of these trees, we hope to be able to go through the trees and make several changes for the better. Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel. So if I'm understanding this concept, you want the divine characters to work as follows:

DC casters use this new destiny
Melee use this new destiny
Healbots use Exalted Angel
Tanks use Unyielding Sovereignty

?

There are a lot of things I would say, but I promised a better outlook for a full year. So I will limit myself to saying that this design concept is...suboptimal.

[Antheal]

4. Substantially reworking the two existing divine destinies to allow for the new destiny to be a pure offensive divine caster.

So does that mean you'll be changing something to allow for a pure Über-healing-based Epic Destiny?

[Silverleafeon]

I'm going to play "Let's Assume." even though Katherine Hepburn would advise against it...


There is something big ahead to do.
Let us assume that is raising the epic destiny levels from 5 to 10 by the time the level cap goes to 30.

You want the new tree usable by melee and casters.
Let us assume that is making off destiny farming easier.

You want to wait on completely redoing any epic destinies.
Let us assume that is because with the upcoming power boost all epic destinies with transform.

You have no inclination to work on the Sorcerer capstone.
Let us assume that Draconic Fury duration will be increased in the future transformation, fixing the epic moment.

You have waited forever to even consider reducing the cool down of Reborn in Light.
Let us assume you knew epic destinies were increasing to level 10, and it could be dealt with at that time.

You see that the divine sphere is lacking, and are moving to work on that.
Let us assume you intend to balance out the two most lacking epic destinies before the power surge.

You are trying to keep balance in the epic destinies.
Let us assume you know that increasing the levels will increase power on its own.

You are aware that divine DCs are well below normal and need attention.
Let us assume you will address that within both Exalted Angel in minor ways and in the new ED in major ways.

You realize that Exalted Angel and Unyielding Sentinel are both highly dependent upon favored soul and paladin respectively.
Let us assume you realize smite evil and lay on hand are based on paladin levels, and only certain favored souls get archons.

Realizing you want to make off destiny experiences (ode) more friendly in the new epic destiny, you look at the old as well.
Let us assume you will adjust certain aspects to make more classes be able to use these destinies.

[ishr]

Thanks everyone for your interest and input on last month’s post on the new Divine Epic Destiny. Based on your feedback, we’ve made some changes to our design, and we’d like to share with you where things are headed for this new destiny.

Some of the key suggestions we gathered so far from last month’s thread:
1. Having the new destiny be melee centric to the exclusion of other niches like spellcasting may be undesirable.
2. Including a boost to Divine Spell DCs would be great.
3. Making some changes and improvements to Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel would be most welcome.

In addition to the above suggestions, another idea that many seemed to like was this:
4. Substantially reworking the two existing divine destinies to allow for the new destiny to be a pure offensive divine caster.

I’ll speak to number 4 first. This idea has some merit, but… it would require a lot of time and, more importantly, a lot more time than we actually have to work on destinies for the near and midterm future. We’ve got a full schedule of other improvements, and a major rework of multiple destinies is too big a task to fit in. So instead of doing this, we’re going to tackle the other suggestions on the above list. By acting on these, we think we should be able to address some of the concerns that made people suggest number 4, because there is some good overlap between them.

To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest. This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities.

In order to address point 3, we’d also like to make a set of changes to the other two divine epic destinies to adjust their roles and amplify their power level. While this will definitely amount to less than a complete reworking of these trees, we hope to be able to go through the trees and make several changes for the better. Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel.

As we get closer to filling out the new destiny’s tree, we’ll be looking at this thread (as well as back through the 14 pages of the original thread) to see if we can incorporate any more of your ideas. Thanks again for your input.

Great to see progress here, but what we'd really like to see is fixes to existing BROKEN enhancements like eldritch knight's scroll mastery. Please don't neglect the sorcerer, she's already hugely underpowered and barely made it into the enhancement pass to begin with. Right now the overly-nerfed sorc is what needs attention.

[Silverleafeon]

Seriously, take care what you do with Exalted Angel here....
I agree, it need genius, the kind of genius that brought us Divine Disciple thru a combined dev effort.

I'm having trouble testing astral vibrance with all its tangles, and its complex.

The sp cost increasing +1 per use is ridiculous.
Turning on Ascendancy every 5 minutes leaves me with places were the party is not doing much at times.
Party members under half health get healed quickly from afar.
Monster under half health die fairly quickly.
Perhaps more EE questing would help, but that is were one hardly has any time to watch cool down counters.
Sigh...

[Silverleafeon]

I like the idea of some SLAs in the new divine destiny.
Please include a light SLA that we can twist into Exalted Angel.
Two would be even better, particularly if one was area of effect.

Please consider including other SLAs that are wisdom or charisma based.

Tsuanmi has a downfall, in that it gets rid of most debuffs and crowd control.
So the divine sphere needs more twistable SLAs.

Consider carefully a third healing SLA somewhere, twistable or not.

[rayworks]

Though I don't object to having something like that in an ED, a simpler way to do it would be to take a certain CC spell, already implemented in the game, that should be on the Clr/FvS spell list, and actually put it on the Clr/FvS spell list.

What spell is that?

Why write a comment to an important issue and not include details like which spell?

[Silverleafeon]

What spell is that?
http://ddowiki.com/page/Druid_spells

http://ddowiki.com/images/Icon_Earthquake.png

Earthquake

Evocation

Summons an earthquake beneath your enemies' feet. Enemies within the area of effect have an additional 30% spell failure chance, and every three seconds they are knocked down and take 2 to 16 points of damage. A successful reflex save vs. the damage halves the damage, and a reflex save vs. the knockdown negates it. Flying enemies are immune. D&D Dice: Deals 2d8 level bludgeoning damage.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericSpells.htm
It is found in the sdr {D&D 3rd edition public domain} under cleric spells level 8, right beside firestorm.

Bringing this spell into the cleric/favored soul spell book would be earthshaking (pardon the pun) akin to divine punishment being added.

Fawngate's final build might be a druid, partly because of this spell.
Even if it is added to the cleric spell book, druids will be more effective using it, because they have
water elemental form and the spells: sleet storm and ice storm.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm


Earthquake

Evocation [Earth]


Level:
Clr 8, Destruction 8, Drd 8, Earth 7

Components:
V, S, DF

Casting Time:
1 standard action

Range:
Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

Area:
80-ft.-radius spread (S)

Duration:
1 round

Saving Throw:
See text

Spell Resistance:
No

When you cast earthquake, an intense but highly localized tremor rips the ground. The shock knocks creatures down, collapses structures, opens cracks in the ground, and more. The effect lasts for 1 round, during which time creatures on the ground can’t move or attack. A spellcaster on the ground must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose any spell he or she tries to cast. The earthquake affects all terrain, vegetation, structures, and creatures in the area. The specific effect of an earthquake spell depends on the nature of the terrain where it is cast.

Cave, Cavern, or Tunnel

The spell collapses the roof, dealing 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage to any creature caught under the cave-in (Reflex DC 15 half) and pinning that creature beneath the rubble (see below). An earthquake cast on the roof of a very large cavern could also endanger those outside the actual area but below the falling debris.

Cliffs

Earthquake causes a cliff to crumble, creating a landslide that travels horizontally as far as it fell vertically. Any creature in the path takes 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage (Reflex DC 15 half) and is pinned beneath the rubble (see below).

Open Ground

Each creature standing in the area must make a DC 15 Reflex save or fall down. Fissures open in the earth, and every creature on the ground has a 25% chance to fall into one (Reflex DC 20 to avoid a fissure). At the end of the spell, all fissures grind shut, killing any creatures still trapped within.

Structure

Any structure standing on open ground takes 100 points of damage, enough to collapse a typical wooden or masonry building, but not a structure built of stone or reinforced masonry. Hardness does not reduce this damage, nor is it halved as damage dealt to objects normally is. Any creature caught inside a collapsing structure takes 8d6 points of bludgeoning damage (Reflex DC 15 half) and is pinned beneath the rubble (see below).

River, Lake, or Marsh

Fissures open underneath the water, draining away the water from that area and forming muddy ground. Soggy marsh or swampland becomes quicksand for the duration of the spell, sucking down creatures and structures. Each creature in the area must make a DC 15 Reflex save or sink down in the mud and quicksand. At the end of the spell, the rest of the body of water rushes in to replace the drained water, possibly drowning those caught in the mud.

Pinned beneath Rubble

Any creature pinned beneath rubble takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute while pinned. If a pinned character falls unconscious, he or she must make a DC 15 Constitution check or take 1d6 points of lethal damage each minute thereafter until freed or dead.


This actually would be a huge bone to throw the divine right now, let them chew on that till December...

[Wipey]

Druid is paid class, clerics or fvs will never get Earthquake despite it being core divine spell in pen and paper and every d&d game and "some " persistent cc is direly needed.
Command, symbols, comets barely work unless you gimp your main schools and slot all that stuff on gear somewhere.

Asking for "more " healing or focus on that doesn't make any sense to me, that "strength" of class or mean of contribution is much much less needed than ever before.

[SirValentine]

So does that mean you'll be changing something to allow for a pure Über-healing-based Epic Destiny?

Well, he said he was NOT going to rework existing destinies. That list was what we wanted, not what we're getting.

Though he did also say he's going to make Exalted Angel be even more healing focused. (Joy. Still no caster-focused ED, another melee ED, and the best excuse for for a caster ED pushed towards hjealbot.)

[SirValentine]

Druid is paid class, clerics or fvs will never get Earthquake despite it being core divine spell in pen and paper and every d&d game and "some " persistent cc is direly needed.


FvS is a paid class, too. And Druid's been around enough that it is no longer the new kid on the block.

[SirValentine]

Even if it is added to the cleric spell book, druids will be more effective using it, because they have
water elemental form and the spells: sleet storm and ice storm.


Yes. Druids have tons of debuffs they can stack with it. So it wouldn't take away from Druids being the Earthquake masters; it would just give Clr/FvS some more flexibility.



This actually would be a huge bone to throw the divine right now, let them chew on that till December...


Yes.

[SirValentine]

What spell is that?

Why write a comment to an important issue and not include details like which spell?

I figured everyone already knew what I was talking about; it's been brought up often enough over the last year and a half. Sorry.

And, as others have already answered, it's Earthquake.

Though there are also a number of other spells implemented in-game that have not been given to the classes that should have them, and I support them being properly assigned, as well.

[mikarddo]

Thanks everyone for your interest and input on last month’s post on the new Divine Epic Destiny. Based on your feedback, we’ve made some changes to our design, and we’d like to share with you where things are headed for this

To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest. This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities.

In order to address point 3, we’d also like to make a set of changes to the other two divine epic destinies to adjust their roles and amplify their power level. While this will definitely amount to less than a complete reworking of these trees, we hope to be able to go through the trees and make several changes for the better. Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel.

As we get closer to filling out the new destiny’s tree, we’ll be looking at this thread (as well as back through the 14 pages of the original thread) to see if we can incorporate any more of your ideas. Thanks again for your input.

I am sorry but what you present here sounds quite bad. Making a hybrid tree is not going to appeal to anyone. Instead make a full melee ED to rival LD and upgrade EA to become a good divine DC and healing ED. Only a few changes are needed for that.

[Pentaur-Silvermane]

It sounds like...

1) They wanted to do a melee tree, so they're still going to
2) They don't want bother fixing under-powered existing EDs, so they're not going to
3) We complained about under-powered existing EDs, so they're going to make some token changes to shut us up
4) We said we wanted DCs, so they're going to randomly throw a token DC boost into the melee tree to shut us up
5) We said that a caster tree was more needed than yet another melee tree, so they decided to call the new melee tree a "hybrid" to shut us up

Am I wrong?

Is the main issue development time? If so, my suggestion:

1) Don't waste anyone's time with an unattractive mishmish ED
2) Table the new ED entirely for now, until you actually have the resources to do it right
3) Spend the resources you were going to use developing a new ED for fixing the existing EDs

And, as was said in the other thread, there's already several good melee EDs out there, but no good divine caster ED out there at all.

This is totally what they are gonna do...We wanted a caster ED so they give us a melee/hybrid ED...

If they make EA a healer based ED and give us another melee/hybid (cause there isn't already enough of them) then where do offensive caster divnes go?

Sooooo disapointing.

Seroiusly if you don't have the time to do a decent job on a caster based ED then don't bother at all.

[HatsuharuZ]

I don't think we need a "healing" destiny. The reason being, a healer just needs enough spellpower on his/her healing spells to mostly refill a player's HP bar, which doesn't go up nearly as much over a given number of character levels as the HP bars of enemies do.

Also, It would make sense to add an ability to Unyielding Sentinel that increases the critical profile of smiting abilities, including the warpriest one. I would suggest getting rid of "Confront Any Foe", and putting a smite-enhancing ability there.

As for the 3 stances in the U.S. tree, I would suggest getting rid of one of them and splitting the abilities of the discarded stance between the remaining two.

[Miow]

So, instead of fixing US, EA, Magister, Primal Avatar etc etc because it takes you "too much time", you'd rather go on with your schedule and make a new mixed melee/spellcasting ED that will likely suck just as much as Primal Avatar. Awesome.

This tree better have some goddamn good ability like Master's Blitz, Fury Epic moment, Dragon Breath or the old bugged Treetard or you will have wasted just as much time.

Oh, did I already tell you that I'd rather you FIX THE OLD EDs than making a new one?

While i agree, the divine sphere needs a new ED regardless.

Dev please man, you need to go balls out on dc to do proper dc casting, throw in some spell power and spell pen and we are cooking. Giving us part of a divine casting ED is not what we wanted. Gimme a dam pie, not a slice of pie!!

Edit: Mmmmmmm pie.....

[Postumus]

By the way, for those of you wanting to influence future situations like this, perhaps apply here:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/434262-Introducing-The-DDO-Players-Council!


If 100 responses to a question don't influence devs much, why would a mere 20-30?

[spectroum]

Great to see an update in this

I just want to remind you guys something

Whatever you do either to EA,US or the new ED don't make the mistake of an epic moment that would be at best something average..

All epic moments should be revamped and look like Blitz,Fury,Dragon Breath and Tea.

People say that these moments are OP (well besides Dragon Breath) but the drawbacks balance the OPness out imo.
Blitz drawbacks: a) you lose it when you get through any sort of load screen, b) you have to constantly kill mobs, c) in a raid or a full party it's hard to get it starting
Fury drawbacks: a) you can't prep it or use it before engaging mobs, b) requires to score vorpals in order to prep it, c) has a short duration
Tea drawbacks: a) only 1 use per rest, b) Joy proc has a low % chance to proc so therefore you can never be certain if you can get benefited or not
Breath drawbacks: a) only 5 uses per rest, b) can hit many mobs in line but easily miss them all due to positioning (see demonweb), c) you can't move when using it

So to explain my point here...all the above epic moments offer something exciting and huge in terms of damage BUT they have many drawbacks as well making them even. So don't be afraid to offer us with new epic moments based on the idea of those above. It certainly won't make them OP just like how Skybreaker isn't OP in the sake of eSoS by having higher base damage.

It's all about balance...

[Deamus]

Sounds really good imo the update. It goes to the correct direction. I'm eager to see a preview.

This ED will certainly make me come back to the game !

[PsychoBlonde]

I hope the new destiny has a different "theme" from the existing ones. I'd just like to see something a bit darker, give some breadth to the Divine tree.

It's also good that you guys are giving some consideration to US and EA. Here's a few concrete suggestions:

Unyielding Sentinel

Change the stances so that you get all of the benefits in all of the stances, just somewhat reduced when you're not in the "main" stance that primarily grants that benefit. For instance, make Steadfast make you immune to knockdown but if you're in Stand Against The Tide you're also immune to KNOCKBACK. There are plenty of classes that get immunity to knockdown somewhere, that'd be a unique ability for this tree and this destiny truly VALUABLE for tanking some of the bosses in the game.
None of the tier abilities should be completely stance-dependent. You can make them somewhat better in a stance (holy burst instead of holy when you're in Stand Against the Tide, for instance), but if you spend points on it, it should be active. One of the worst things about this tree is that there is literally NOTHING worth twisting in because it all depends on the innate abilities. Heck, Anoint Weapon is a friggin' tier 5, so you can't twist it regardless. Sense Weakness is hella more powerful than Purify Weapon and you can freely twist it in on any build. The alignment-based abilities should grant DIFFERENT things for DIFFERENT alignments, not ONLY grant something IF you have X alignment. If you're chaotic, your weapons should get Chaotic from Fanaticism. Maybe if you're Neutral Fanaticism, Purify, and Anoint do electrical damage or similar.
Make levels in the destiny count as Paladin levels for the purpose of improving your LoH and Smite Evil.
Make Endless Lay On Hands grant 2 LOH per rank, not 1, and have them regenerate 10/20/30% faster instead of just a flat 10%.
Make Endless Turning grant 2 turn attempts per rank, not 1.
Healing Hands should grant healing amp not positive spellpower. You folks might want to consider this an opportunity to fix the stacking rules and amounts on healing amp.
Intolerant Blows should be more like +[2]W or +[3]W
Hardened should provide a % boost to AC not just a flat number. It should probably also add to PRR. It's tier 5, you can't twist it, make it awesome.
Ward Against Evil should always proc, not just be a measly 20% chance. Maybe give it a 3/6/9% chance to proc some kind of medium-big boom. Also, rename it, retribution isn't a "ward", it's not protecting you, it's hitting them BACK.
Here's the big one: UNDYING VANGUARD SUCKS. IT SUCKS HARD. This is supposed to be an epic moment? It's nearly impossible to build up 200 stacks in any quest with any kind of a door or area transition in it, and what the heck is the point of having 10,000 temp hp if they GO AWAY in 20 seconds? Reduce the stacks DRAMATICALLY and make the temp HP last until they get chomped away by damage. THAT would actually be good. If you want to reduce it to 5000 temp hp, FINE, (although, boo), but don't taunt us with HP we don't actually get to USE.


Exalted Angel

IMO this tree is actually not that bad, it's just kind of boring to play. If you're a caster, you basically stop casting spells and just pew pew pew light until you get the Divine Wrath boom. The melee aspects (blessed blades, smite the wicked) are really kind of pointless in that they have little synergy with the rest of the tree. It's somewhat ironic that this is the tree where you get big bonus SP because this is also the tree that more or less completely removes the necessity for USING your SP for anything other than buffs.

One suggestion, however, is to make it so that Judgment and Judge The Many count as casting a light spell when they go off. I think Judgment and Judge The Many are a little too specific. They should work on any evil critter--just have a greater effect vs. undead and evil outsiders.

But EA is not a "bad" tree in the way Unyielding Sentinel is. It's a *little* unfocused, is all.

[redspecter23]

Unyielding Sentinel

Change the stances so that you get all of the benefits in all of the stances, just somewhat reduced when you're not in the "main" stance that primarily grants that benefit. For instance, make Steadfast make you immune to knockdown but if you're in Stand Against The Tide you're also immune to KNOCKBACK. There are plenty of classes that get immunity to knockdown somewhere, that'd be a unique ability for this tree and this destiny truly VALUABLE for tanking some of the bosses in the game.
None of the tier abilities should be completely stance-dependent. You can make them somewhat better in a stance (holy burst instead of holy when you're in Stand Against the Tide, for instance), but if you spend points on it, it should be active. One of the worst things about this tree is that there is literally NOTHING worth twisting in because it all depends on the innate abilities. Heck, Anoint Weapon is a friggin' tier 5, so you can't twist it regardless. Sense Weakness is hella more powerful than Purify Weapon and you can freely twist it in on any build. The alignment-based abilities should grant DIFFERENT things for DIFFERENT alignments, not ONLY grant something IF you have X alignment. If you're chaotic, your weapons should get Chaotic from Fanaticism. Maybe if you're Neutral Fanaticism, Purify, and Anoint do electrical damage or similar.
Make levels in the destiny count as Paladin levels for the purpose of improving your LoH and Smite Evil.
Make Endless Lay On Hands grant 2 LOH per rank, not 1, and have them regenerate 10/20/30% faster instead of just a flat 10%.
Make Endless Turning grant 2 turn attempts per rank, not 1.
Healing Hands should grant healing amp not positive spellpower. You folks might want to consider this an opportunity to fix the stacking rules and amounts on healing amp.
Intolerant Blows should be more like +[2]W or +[3]W
Hardened should provide a % boost to AC not just a flat number. It should probably also add to PRR. It's tier 5, you can't twist it, make it awesome.
Ward Against Evil should always proc, not just be a measly 20% chance. Maybe give it a 3/6/9% chance to proc some kind of medium-big boom. Also, rename it, retribution isn't a "ward", it's not protecting you, it's hitting them BACK.
Here's the big one: UNDYING VANGUARD SUCKS. IT SUCKS HARD. This is supposed to be an epic moment? It's nearly impossible to build up 200 stacks in any quest with any kind of a door or area transition in it, and what the heck is the point of having 10,000 temp hp if they GO AWAY in 20 seconds? Reduce the stacks DRAMATICALLY and make the temp HP last until they get chomped away by damage. THAT would actually be good. If you want to reduce it to 5000 temp hp, FINE, (although, boo), but don't taunt us with HP we don't actually get to USE.




I have to agree with most of what's said here. They really missed the mark with US. It would have been a great place to put some shield bash enhancements and I think they could have done better than +7% doublestrike with a shield equipped. I'd make it 5% doublestrike per rank as well as +10% shield bash per rank in addition to the PRR bonuses for Legendary Shield Mastery. At tier 2, that makes a nice twist for S&B toons that aren't in US destiny.

I'd change Block Energy's requirement be just having a shield equipped for up to 30% absorption. Shield blocking for that benefit makes it less than niche.

Hardened could easily be +10 AC and +10% AC added on top of that. It would make a decent tier 5 at that point.

I think adding an antithesis to sneak attack damage in this tree would be interesting. Do extra damage to mobs that you have intimidated. For 20 seconds after a successful intimidation check, you deal +3/+6/+10 damage to those mobs. One of the drawbacks to playing a "tank" style is you lose sneak attack potential. This could level that out a bit.

I think they could have put more threat gen effects in here too. Tanks have a lot of DPS hitting the other side of the mob they have to account for. At bare minimum, there should be enough passive threat gen in this tree to equal the threat you would create if you were in a DPS destiny like fury or dreadnaught.

Whoever created Ward Against Evil was joking, right? 20% chance for piddly damage in epic content. At 100% chance it would still be weak, especially for a high tier ability. Guard effects don't scale well into elite. If they have to stick with 20%, I'd make it 20% chance when wearing heavy armor, 10% for medium armor to deflect an incoming hit back at the mob. That means, you completely avoid the hit 20% of the time and all the damage goes back to the mob. You add an extra layer of defense high enough in the US tree it can't be twisted and you make a scalable guard effect. This extra layer of defense is sorely missing from armored builds that have to compete with evasion and high dodge that robe wearers benefit from.

[Vellrad]

Great to see an update in this

I just want to remind you guys something

Whatever you do either to EA,US or the new ED don't make the mistake of an epic moment that would be at best something average..

All epic moments should be revamped and look like Blitz,Fury,Dragon Breath and Tea.

People say that these moments are OP (well besides Dragon Breath) but the drawbacks balance the OPness out imo.
Blitz drawbacks: a) you lose it when you get through any sort of load screen, b) you have to constantly kill mobs, c) in a raid or a full party it's hard to get it starting
Fury drawbacks: a) you can't prep it or use it before engaging mobs, b) requires to score vorpals in order to prep it, c) has a short duration
Tea drawbacks: a) only 1 use per rest, b) Joy proc has a low % chance to proc so therefore you can never be certain if you can get benefited or not
Breath drawbacks: a) only 5 uses per rest, b) can hit many mobs in line but easily miss them all due to positioning (see demonweb), c) you can't move when using it

So to explain my point here...all the above epic moments offer something exciting and huge in terms of damage BUT they have many drawbacks as well making them even. So don't be afraid to offer us with new epic moments based on the idea of those above. It certainly won't make them OP just like how Skybreaker isn't OP in the sake of eSoS by having higher base damage.

It's all about balance...

Tea and breaths are not epic moments.
EM is something at highest tier you charge to use, and have a lenghty cooldown afterwards:

DI: Fearsome Invulnerability.
Never heard about anyone using it.
EA: Reborn in light.
I hear more complains about it than good things.
FS: This ED don't seem to have epic moment. People say Turn the Tide is, but its useless vs bosses, and has too big cooldown to use in regular trash combats (unless its one huge trash battle, with couple dozens of mobs).
Fury: Unbridled fury
This is one of few epic moments that are awesome.
GoF: EiN
This is one of few epic moments that are awesome.
LD: blizt
This is one of few epic moments that are awesome.
Magister: Nullmagic Aura
Sounds good on paper, but I never heard anyone actually using this.
PA: Avatar of nature
Famous tree, now nerfed to oblivion.
SD: Dark imbuement
Buffs damage output for 30 seconds. Much, much weaker than unbrindled fury, but has a good potential when amount of attacks during that 30 seconds is huge. Manyshot or fussilade comes to mind.
Shiradi: Rain of Arrows:
Its rarely used. Damage output seems nice, but randomness of damage makes it really underwhelming.
US: Undying vanguard:
This is terrible moment, it takes ages to charge, and then it simply ssucks.

Most of epic moments needs to be terribly buffed, but blizt and fury seems to be ballanced well, IMO.

[spectroum]

Tea and breaths are not epic moments.
EM is something at highest tier you charge to use, and have a lenghty cooldown afterwards:

DI: Fearsome Invulnerability.
Never heard about anyone using it.
EA: Reborn in light.
I hear more complains about it than good things.
FS: This ED don't seem to have epic moment. People say Turn the Tide is, but its useless vs bosses, and has too big cooldown to use in regular trash combats (unless its one huge trash battle, with couple dozens of mobs).
Fury: Unbridled fury
This is one of few epic moments that are awesome.
GoF: EiN
This is one of few epic moments that are awesome.
LD: blizt
This is one of few epic moments that are awesome.
Magister: Nullmagic Aura
Sounds good on paper, but I never heard anyone actually using this.
PA: Avatar of nature
Famous tree, now nerfed to oblivion.
SD: Dark imbuement
Buffs damage output for 30 seconds. Much, much weaker than unbrindled fury, but has a good potential when amount of attacks during that 30 seconds is huge. Manyshot or fussilade comes to mind.
Shiradi: Rain of Arrows:
Its rarely used. Damage output seems nice, but randomness of damage makes it really underwhelming.
US: Undying vanguard:
This is terrible moment, it takes ages to charge, and then it simply ssucks.

Most of epic moments needs to be terribly buffed, but blizt and fury seems to be ballanced well, IMO.


ah you're right with the breath thing...it's just been like a year i played my sorc as a DI and totally forgot about it :P

idk if rain is the shiradi's epic moment but certainly tea seems more epic..(none of them is listed as epic moment actually :P)

[Vargouille]

Make Endless Lay On Hands grant 2 LOH per rank, not 1, and have them regenerate 10/20/30% faster instead of just a flat 10%.

Lay on Hands doesn't regenerate at all without Endless Lay on Hands. The 10% reduction after that does stack in the same as that +1 Lay on Hands stacks, so rank 3 is 20% faster than rank 1 in addition to providing +2 Lay on Hands uses. We can try to clarify that text further to make that clear and more consistent with how we usually present that information.


don't taunt us with HP we don't actually get to USE.

The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work. But this is a good example of how presentation matters, and we could have done better.

There are of course other possible changes which we are happy for players to suggest as part of our re-examination of divine Epic Destinties, but the intent was never to actually grant 10,000 temporary hitpoints for full use (any more than Unyielding Sovereignty is expected to actually heal 10,000 hit points). Again, sorry for the confusion.

[Kanuk]

Thanks everyone for your interest and input on last month’s post on the new Divine Epic Destiny. Based on your feedback, we’ve made some changes to our design, and we’d like to share with you where things are headed for this new destiny.

Some of the key suggestions we gathered so far from last month’s thread:
1. Having the new destiny be melee centric to the exclusion of other niches like spellcasting may be undesirable.
2. Including a boost to Divine Spell DCs would be great.
3. Making some changes and improvements to Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel would be most welcome.

In addition to the above suggestions, another idea that many seemed to like was this:
4. Substantially reworking the two existing divine destinies to allow for the new destiny to be a pure offensive divine caster.

I’ll speak to number 4 first. .

I will also start by answering #4. You are wrong; re-working the existing divine ED is not a requirement to allow the new destiny to be pure offensive divine caster. What I understood from those 14 pages is that we want the new ED to be divine caster (if not pure offensive) first and foremost. Then, adjustment to the 2 existing ED would be the secondary request, it would be the icing on the cake really!

Regarding point #1, you kind of got it. Currently, there’s 5 melee ED (LD, GMOF, FotW, ShadowDancer & US), 3 caster ED (EA, Draconic,Magister), 2 kind of hybrids (Primal Avatar for divine casters and some melee & Shiradi for caster or range i guess can be consider hybrids) and finally the lack luster Fate singer. Considering a melee divines has 5 ED options, there’s simply no need for a divine melee ED. At the moment, most divine caster i know our either shiradi or draconic and that’s sad.

#2:Got that right! There is a need for some source of DC boost for divine somewhere in the divine sphere! This is going to be the “cleric” ED right? Based on D&D PnP3.5, caster wise, the only difference in DC specialization between a cleric and a wizard is the wizard gets more feats. But they could both focus as much in a school reaching same DC. Also, Cleric ED should get DC boosting abilities before FVS. Again, cleric and wiz having less SP are supposed to be more efficient with the spells they use where as Fvs and Sorc are not as efficient but can cast more of said spells. Something like +2 or +3 to be chosen between necro and evocation in the cleric ED and also a +1 or +2 in the Exalted Angel ED would be perfect.

#3: Personally, if you do the cleric ED right, i don’t care so much about the others...but yes, they both need some love as once Divine has made his way around all the ED trees, they rarely go back to the divine sphere i would think.




To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest. This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities. .

This sent a shiver down my back.... the warpriest, really, please enlighten me as to what is caster related currently in the warpriest enhancement tree? I know it does not exist in DDO, but did you know that Clerics could cast a spell called Miracle!!!! You know how they did that, not by smacking something in the face with their holy weapon, they cast a freaking spell!!! This is going to be the Cleric ED, Clerics are casters! The reason why they were given shield and armor is because they are expected to be in the mist of things healing at very close range. That made it feasible for a Cleric to go either melee builds OR caster. Trust me, if Clerics had access to their full spell list (Domains to say the least and of course earthquake), most EPIC Cleric would be caster and not melee.

My overall idea for a Cleric ED would be from left columns to right (A to E)
A: melee abilities
B: Turn undead related abilities and some group related buffs
C: healing and light related abilities
D: Something very close to the magister spell focus line. Possibly only from tier 3 to 5 with DC at tier 3, with spell cooldown tier 4, caster level tier 5. Could put light or heal buff /SLA at tier 1 and 2 and pump more light/healing into tree “C”.
E: stats line, wisdom and charisma (maybe force, but hey, where the base stats enhancement for clerics before the pass not Wisdom and Charisma? Just saying).

I guess not more than one out of the 4 non stats tree should be melee, the rest should be caster/turn related. Please don’t make it more melee than caster. It needs to be a caster ED, some offensive casting some melee related abilities, but more caster than melee. Please.

[nibel]

The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work.

Wouldn't had been easier to copy-past the invulnerability buff from cannith challenges, and reduce the timer from 60 to 20 seconds?

Also, just to point out, the Shadowdancer tier 3 ability "Meld Into Darkness" is almost the same thing, lasts for almost the same time (15 seconds), and can be used much more frequently (once every 2 minutes). This sums up why the US Epic Moment is so weak in everyone's eyes.

[redspecter23]

The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work. But this is a good example of how presentation matters, and we could have done better.

There are of course other possible changes which we are happy for players to suggest as part of our re-examination of divine Epic Destinties, but the intent was never to actually grant 10,000 temporary hitpoints for full use (any more than Unyielding Sovereignty is expected to actually heal 10,000 hit points). Again, sorry for the confusion.

I have to ask. Is invulnerability for 20 seconds considered comparable to Master's Blitz for an entire quest (unless you go through a door)? The world wants to know if Master's Blitz is the yardstick we should be measuring epic moments by... or is it above the curve for what an epic moment should be.

Regardless, all that effort for 20 seconds of immunity seems like an awful lot of work. If you survived that long building it up, I'm sure you don't really care about the next 20 seconds. If we have some new raid boss coming that goes absolutely nuts for exactly 19 seconds every 10 minutes, then this ability may have a use after all.

Also, Vargouille if you're reading this far, see what you can do about throwing some knockback immunity to tanks, possibly in the US tree. Moving 2 feet every 2 seconds to re-engage with nearly every giant and dragon along with other types of mobs is killer on your dps when you only get glancing blows while standing still. Bare minimum, can you have it not knock you back on a miss?

[Trillea]

I have to ask. Is invulnerability for 20 seconds considered comparable to Master's Blitz for an entire quest (unless you go through a door)? The world wants to know if Master's Blitz is the yardstick we should be measuring epic moments by... or is it above the curve for what an epic moment should be.


All epic moments should be as powerful in their ways as Blitz is for meleeing.

All 2nd lvl spells should be as powerful in their ways as Scorching Ray is.. the only one that comes close is web.

I could go on but there are just so many things that need rebalanced... and by that I mean weaker stuff buffed, not strong stuff nerfed.

[spectroum]

The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work.


I'll just throw a piece of info here...

Only time i actually used it on my tank which was like a year+ ago...was during an EH LoB run where i was the main tank and i activated the "Epic Moment" exactly when he started his whirlwind JUST SO i could see his damage output.

Level of Usefulness: Boredom

[Ovrad]

Also, Vargouille if you're reading this far, see what you can do about throwing some knockback immunity to tanks, possibly in the US tree. Moving 2 feet every 2 seconds to re-engage with nearly every giant and dragon along with other types of mobs is killer on your dps when you only get glancing blows while standing still. Bare minimum, can you have it not knock you back on a miss?

Or how about that fix that was supposed to be in the eGH release, that said that yellow named giants no longer knocked you back? That never made it in...

[redspecter23]

Or how about that fix that was supposed to be in the eGH release, that said that yellow named giants no longer knocked you back? That never made it in...

I'm not sure what it is about that knockback. The way it jerks the screen or just having to keep moving just a little bit after every swing but it annoys the crud out of me to the point where I just want to close my eyes and not have to deal with it until the fight is over. If I can keep a boss in deception lockdown for more than 5 seconds it just makes me so happy because I don't need to twitch back into position again. In case you didn't realize, I really hate no save knockback that happens regardless of your defenses. This annoys me only slightly less than invulnerable Djinns that toss you around for 20 seconds until they decide to come back and let you kill them again. Only sometimes, they aren't quite back even though graphically they appear to be, then they toss you around for a few seconds more.

But yes, I'd like to see non named giants just plain not do it. It would be a good start.

[Vargouille]

For what it's worth, blocking stops knockbacks (and some other negative effects).

[nibel]

I'll just throw a piece of info here...

Only time i actually used it on my tank which was like a year+ ago...was during an EH LoB run where i was the main tank and i activated the "Epic Moment" exactly when he started his whirlwind JUST SO i could see his damage output.

Level of Usefulness: Boredom

I did it with Meld Into Darkness. It is so awesome to see all the "dodge" messages in a heavy plated dwarf.

[redspecter23]

For what it's worth, blocking stops knockbacks (and some other negative effects).

Fair enough. I guess I'm just not a fan of the blocking system here. I get where you're trying to go with it, but I don't think the game is responsive enough to get active shield blocking syncing up fast enough to not be frustrating. As effective as shield blocking a knockback is in theory, it's still faster to just take the knockback and run up, swinging the whole time.

Also, unless I'm doing something wrong, I wasn't able to shield block through a djinn immuno-frenzy without knockbacks and knockdowns.

[Vellrad]

For what it's worth, blocking stops knockbacks (and some other negative effects).

Together with our DPS and means to keep aggro.

[Silverleafeon]

http://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Exalted.png

Lots of empty space here.
Fill up the new ED and you could have enough stuff for both a melee and a caster.

Doing some math, we have 24 points to spend atm.
With the increase of ED to level 10, we should have 16 more for a total of 40.
If the left side of the new divine ed is str/wis, then players could spend 2x6=12 points there.

If I was a dev, I could pack up 28 points to spend on melee and 28 points to spend on casters
all in one ED. I could do it, can you?

[Vellrad]

http://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Exalted.png

Lots of empty space here.
Fill up the new ED and you could have enough stuff for both a melee and a caster.

Doing some math, we have 24 points to spend atm.
With the increase of ED to level 10, we should have 16 more for a total of 40.
If the left side of the new divine ed is str/wis, then players could spend 2x6=12 points there.

If I was a dev, I could pack up 28 points to spend on melee and 28 points to spend on casters
all in one ED. I could do it, can you?

So far, you're the only person talking about increasing EDs to lvl10 like its a fact, not something that is never gonna happen.

You see any dev promise, is that just your wish?

[Desonde]

For what it's worth, blocking stops knockbacks (and some other negative effects).

All knockbacks or just the ones associated with giants? Because I know this isn't the case with air elementals or djinns.


Fair enough. I guess I'm just not a fan of the blocking system here. I get where you're trying to go with it, but I don't think the game is responsive enough to get active shield blocking syncing up fast enough to not be frustrating. As effective as shield blocking a knockback is in theory, it's still faster to just take the knockback and run up, swinging the whole time.

Also, unless I'm doing something wrong, I wasn't able to shield block through a djinn immuno-frenzy without knockbacks and knockdowns.

I'm not sure if it's entirely a syncing issue as to an implementation issue, you do need to block before the would be blockable attacks start, and if you drop the block .25 sec before the attack lands the server knows you aren't blocking (it was something like 2 seconds to start blocking and instant stop blocking).

[Silverleafeon]

Aside from this:


...Our final update of 2014 will extend the level cap to 30, which is intended to be DDO’s “permanent” level cap and complete the Epic levels. With this update we’ll be looking at ways to complete and improve existing systems like Epic Destinies....The team is also considering (but not promising) a range of additions, including scaling more content to Epic levels, adding new Classes or Iconics, adding new Enhancement paths or Epic Destinies, and possibly introducing player housing in Eberron...

and nebulous comments made in a you tube video.

I have absolutely zero proof of any kind that the epic destinies will be increased to level 10.

The same could be said of my predictions that epic levels were coming and that the new divine epic destiny would be worked on soon.

I have been wrong predicting TCG futures in the past, and I could be very wrong again.

Do notice that ED xp stops one point short of level 6, instead of stopping at the normal beginning of level 5.
Also note that a Dev posted in favor (no link too far back) of granting the fate points that would be acquired from the ED having level six.
I think I posted more theory elsewhere, but i'll not bore you.


Luxury entertainment is based upon economy, so its wise for Devs to not talk about things that are not in production.

[Ralmeth]

The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work. But this is a good example of how presentation matters, and we could have done.

I've been playing S&B paladins since starting DDO in '06, and I think I'm the only one on the forums to use and advocate Glorious Stand, which the US is supposedly a better version of. I can tell you that the US epic moment is not useful in it's implentation. The issue is that you never know when you are going to get in over your head and need a quick reprieve like either of these do. Glorious Stand has the advantage of being able to be used at any time. I might only need to use it once in a while but it's a handy backup. The problem with the US epic moment is that you have to charge it / and the charge resets upon resting. I tried using it but invariably it wouldn't be charged when I actually needed it, making it useless. If you insist on having to charge it, then have it remain available until it's used. Even then, it should do something more than it does such as adds healing amp like Glorious Stand does. Also, 20 seconds is way too short for an epic moment. I would expect this to last for a minute, but at a minimum extend it to 30 seconds.

[Snapdragoon]

what about a light adrenaline style of effect granted on your next attack after you successfully block an attack? say maybe like the base 300% and increase crit range by 1 or 2.

that encourages the kind of block a hit then swing then block another hit that's trying to be encouraged, I say you DEFINANTLY need to block a hit so that you don't just spam block attack over and over like a weird kind of twitch fighting.

[oradafu]

Lay on Hands doesn't regenerate at all without Endless Lay on Hands. The 10% reduction after that does stack in the same as that +1 Lay on Hands stacks, so rank 3 is 20% faster than rank 1 in addition to providing +2 Lay on Hands uses. We can try to clarify that text further to make that clear and more consistent with how we usually present that information.


Well, Endless Lay On Hands should be given to Pure Paladins upon reaching level 20. It's something I've been asking for for years. Besides shouldn't a pure Paladin a minor benefit like this without being forced into a specific ED or twist. If a paladin wants rechargeable Lay On Hands or faster Smites, they are stuck in a specific ED or forced to give up twist slots. It'd be nice to see these as perks for being a pure paladin.

And I've suggested more Lay On Hands in the past and I was told that it would make Paladins too overpowered (yes, really), then found that additional Lay On Hands were added to an ED a year later.

[Kace]

The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work. But this is a good example of how presentation matters, and we could have done better.

There are of course other possible changes which we are happy for players to suggest as part of our re-examination of divine Epic Destinties, but the intent was never to actually grant 10,000 temporary hitpoints for full use (any more than Unyielding Sovereignty is expected to actually heal 10,000 hit points). Again, sorry for the confusion.

The problems I have with this moment are first that it's not really an apotheosis. The thing about not dying is that it takes a long time. There is no momentary immortality. So giving a brief invulnerability to a class built on long term survivability is kind of awkward. It works really well on a high damage class that is constantly worried about death. I love meld into darkness for that reason.

Secondly, it is random and rare to get the ability charged up. It is also rare that things go badly enough that the usual means of survival are inadequate (comments from the peanut gallery notwithstanding). The confluence of these events meant that I never really had the opportunity to use it.

And finally when it does come up, the great event is that - nothing happens - it's a little pragmatic to love even if it were really potent, which it isn't really. It basically substitutes for a couple heals. I'm of the belief that the moments should have a little razzamataz. The beauty of the epic moment design is that countdown, it really builds the anticipation, and it's nice to have fireworks. Removing the time limit would address my first problem, but it would still be an awfully workmanlike ability for a moment.

[Havok.cry]

It would be a cool epic moment if it had something like: "All nearby enemies take damage equal to the amount of temporary hp missing from the 10,000 every few seconds" added on to the end as that would give tanks a reason to exist beyond 1 single lonely raid.

[sephiroth1084]

I hope the new destiny has a different "theme" from the existing ones. I'd just like to see something a bit darker, give some breadth to the Divine tree.

It's also good that you guys are giving some consideration to US and EA. Here's a few concrete suggestions:

Unyielding SentinelChange the stances so that you get all of the benefits in all of the stances, just somewhat reduced when you're not in the "main" stance that primarily grants that benefit. For instance, make Steadfast make you immune to knockdown but if you're in Stand Against The Tide you're also immune to KNOCKBACK. There are plenty of classes that get immunity to knockdown somewhere, that'd be a unique ability for this tree and this destiny truly VALUABLE for tanking some of the bosses in the game.

None of the tier abilities should be completely stance-dependent. You can make them somewhat better in a stance (holy burst instead of holy when you're in Stand Against the Tide, for instance), but if you spend points on it, it should be active. One of the worst things about this tree is that there is literally NOTHING worth twisting in because it all depends on the innate abilities. Heck, Anoint Weapon is a friggin' tier 5, so you can't twist it regardless. Sense Weakness is hella more powerful than Purify Weapon and you can freely twist it in on any build. The alignment-based abilities should grant DIFFERENT things for DIFFERENT alignments, not ONLY grant something IF you have X alignment. If you're chaotic, your weapons should get Chaotic from Fanaticism. Maybe if you're Neutral Fanaticism, Purify, and Anoint do electrical damage or similar.

Make levels in the destiny count as Paladin levels for the purpose of improving your LoH and Smite Evil.

Agree with all of the above.



Healing Hands should grant healing amp not positive spellpower. You folks might want to consider this an opportunity to fix the stacking rules and amounts on healing amp.

I'm ok with this granting positive spellpower, as that buffs your self-cast CSW or whatever, and buffs Light the Dark, plus, if you are desperate for healing amp, you can twist out of EA. If anything, add a little Hamp to this in addition to the spellpower.




Intolerant Blows should be more like +[2]W or +[3]W This is a really poor ability. The original concept for the ability was poor, and I resent that the dev team changed it rather than take the time to make it work as it was originally intended--that is, like a high-threat AoE attack, or an Intimidate that works on everything. I say, change it to the following:

Expend Smite Evil: Attack with +3[W], normal Smite Damage, and +500% threat. On-hit: activate Intimidate (using 5x your Intim score), with the restrictions normally attached to Intimidate (cannot affect mindless creatures like most constructs and vermin, some undead, oozes, etc...).


Ward Against Evil should always proc, not just be a measly 20% chance. Maybe give it a 3/6/9% chance to proc some kind of medium-big boom. Also, rename it, retribution isn't a "ward", it's not protecting you, it's hitting them BACK. This is just horrendously bad. Ditch it, or change it to maybe...

On-being-attacked (hit or missed): Gain stack of Ward Against Evil (insert standard stack language--see Vulnerability/Inferno). For each stack, you heal 10 HP (affected by either positive healing amp, or repair amp, whichever is higher) every time you are attacked, and gain +5 PRR, +5 AC, and +1 to saves vs. Evil. This can stack up to 10 times. Thus, on a 10-stack, you would gain 100 HP (before amp) every time you're attacked (maybe limit to triggering once per 2 seconds), +50 PRR, +50, and +10 to your saves vs. Evil. THAT'S a ward.


Here's the big one: UNDYING VANGUARD SUCKS. IT SUCKS HARD. This is supposed to be an epic moment? It's nearly impossible to build up 200 stacks in any quest with any kind of a door or area transition in it, and what the heck is the point of having 10,000 temp hp if they GO AWAY in 20 seconds? Reduce the stacks DRAMATICALLY and make the temp HP last until they get chomped away by damage. THAT would actually be good. If you want to reduce it to 5000 temp hp, FINE, (although, boo), but don't taunt us with HP we don't actually get to USE.

Going to say it again: short-duration, long cooldown defensive abilities are TERRIBLE! Offensive abilities work well like this, because you can judge when you wish to use them, and it's hardly a waste even if you use it at an inopportune moment. The benefits of the US epic moment should last for at least 2 minutes (assuming a 5 minute cooldown), and should be significant. Maybe grant an automatic, upgraded version of Rejuvenation Cocoon--every 2 seconds, you are healed for X damage, and gain Y temporary HP (maybe X = 200, and Y = 400). That's nigh-unkillable, but also isn't necessarily going to mean invulnerability.



The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work. But this is a good example of how presentation matters, and we could have done better.

There are of course other possible changes which we are happy for players to suggest as part of our re-examination of divine Epic Destinties, but the intent was never to actually grant 10,000 temporary hitpoints for full use (any more than Unyielding Sovereignty is expected to actually heal 10,000 hit points). Again, sorry for the confusion.How about this?


1 or 2 minute duration (20 seconds is just not long enough, especially given both the charge-up time, and cooldown).
Gain DR 400/-- (that's physical invulnerability vs. almost everything in the game)
Gain Resist Fire, Cold, Electric, Sonic, Acid, Light 1,000 (that's not elemental invulnerability vs. everything, but it's close)
Gain immunity to Force and Negative Energy damage (since we don't have a resistance mechanic for these)

[Silverleafeon]

what about a light adrenaline style of effect granted on your next attack after you successfully block an attack? say maybe like the base 300% and increase crit range by 1 or 2.

that encourages the kind of block a hit then swing then block another hit that's trying to be encouraged, I say you DEFINANTLY need to block a hit so that you don't just spam block attack over and over like a weird kind of twitch fighting.


It would be a cool epic moment if it had something like: "All nearby enemies take damage equal to the amount of temporary hp missing from the 10,000 every few seconds" added on to the end as that would give tanks a reason to exist beyond 1 single lonely raid.

http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/thumb/1/17/202Wobbuffet.png/250px-202Wobbuffet.png

[Silverleafeon]

For what it's worth, blocking stops knockbacks (and some other negative effects).

Try shield blocking while cycling thru cleave, great cleave, etc...

[EllisDee37]

Fill up the new ED and you could have enough stuff for both a melee and a caster.It's possible I suppose, but it bothers me on a conceptual level.

Melee is a core DDO function. Divine melees get half a tree.
Casting is a core DDO function. Divine casters get half a tree.
Tanking is a niche, largely pointless DDO flavor build. Tanks get a whole tree just for themselves.
Healing is a secondary role any divine can easily manage without any ED help at all. Healbots get a whole tree.

It's just wrong. A good and proper "hybrid" divine tree would be a hybrid caster tree. As in, a tree that gives both DC casting buffs, spell power buffs and nice SLAs, but you don't get enough points to spend to be a "master" of DC casting and dps spells at the same time. As a caster you then have to make a choice which direction you want to go.

I don't see enough room in a single tree to give those two choices while also leaving enough room to fit in melee. If the plan is to make exalted the dps caster tree, then it doesn't really make sense to put the new SLAs in the new tree. Shouldn't they go in Exalted?

[sephiroth1084]

For what it's worth, blocking stops knockbacks (and some other negative effects).

This would be more relevant if blocking were more responsive. If we could effectively interrupt an attack instantly to block, and jump out of a block into attacking almost as fast, maybe losing just 1 or 2 swings to actively blocking, it might be useful, but blocking is so sluggish, that unless you are facing a big wind-up, you simply don't have the time or ability to block most individual attacks. And that's before considering LAG, which can make blocking ineffective even with a long delay.

Actively blocking kind of works in LoB, because the LoB has some pretty lengthy wind-ups, but for the quicker ones, even a tiny bit of latency, or a slight hesitation on the part of the player renders the block meaningless, and for most of the rest of the game, this is even worse.

[Silverleafeon]

Shouldn't they go in Exalted?

There is certainly enough blank spots on EA, and room to mix things up a bit.
This would be my preference.

[Snapdragoon]

what about a light adrenaline style of effect granted on your next attack after you successfully block an attack? say maybe like the base 300% and increase crit range by 1 or 2.

that encourages the kind of block a hit then swing then block another hit that's trying to be encouraged, I say you DEFINANTLY need to block a hit so that you don't just spam block attack over and over like a weird kind of twitch fighting.


http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/thumb/1/17/202Wobbuffet.png/250px-202Wobbuffet.png

I know not what you mean :P

and i'm not proposing this as the epic moment, probably a core ability. and I think it would work fine, especially if your cleaving or smiting after blocks. not as powerful as adrenaline because that has its own pool that can run out, this does not.

[Alcedes]

I’ll speak to number 4 first. This idea has some merit, but… it would require a lot of time and, more importantly, a lot more time than we actually have to work on destinies for the near and midterm future. We’ve got a full schedule of other improvements, and a major rework of multiple destinies is too big a task to fit in. So instead of doing this, we’re going to tackle the other suggestions on the above list. By acting on these, we think we should be able to address some of the concerns that made people suggest number 4, because there is some good overlap between them.


i think you are hugely overestimating the usefulness of Unyielding Sentinel and what a "tank" brings to the table (you know, with their level 12-14 equivalent DPS?). Tanking either needs to be reworked to be viable in EE content or the entire concept of tank needs to be removed from the game. I mean, i love the idea of tanking but it is only ever wanted or desired in like 1% of the game. all other times it is looked at as a huge waste of a character slot in a group.

I really do not understand why Turbine saw fit to put in a tempting playstyle that does nothing but insure people dont want you in the group but maybe 1% of the time. :/

[EllisDee37]

i think you are hugely underestimating the usefulness of Unyielding Sentinel and what a "tank" brings to the table (you know, with their level 12-14 equivalent DPS?). Tanking either needs to be reworked to be viable in EE content or the entire concept of tank needs to be removed from the game. I mean, i love the idea of tanking but it is only ever wanted or desired in like 1% of the game. all other times it is looked at as a huge waste of a character slot in a group.

I really do not understand why Turbine saw fit to put in a tempting playstyle that does nothing but insure people dont want you in the group but maybe 1% of the time. :/Did you mean to say overestimating?

[HatsuharuZ]

For what it's worth, blocking stops knockbacks (and some other negative effects).

If you could make it so that blocking cancels any action my character is taking when I hit the block button, I would greatly appreciate it. Blocking is hard to use.

[patang01]

Lay on Hands doesn't regenerate at all without Endless Lay on Hands. The 10% reduction after that does stack in the same as that +1 Lay on Hands stacks, so rank 3 is 20% faster than rank 1 in addition to providing +2 Lay on Hands uses. We can try to clarify that text further to make that clear and more consistent with how we usually present that information.



The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work. But this is a good example of how presentation matters, and we could have done better.

There are of course other possible changes which we are happy for players to suggest as part of our re-examination of divine Epic Destinties, but the intent was never to actually grant 10,000 temporary hitpoints for full use (any more than Unyielding Sovereignty is expected to actually heal 10,000 hit points). Again, sorry for the confusion.

I rather have it grant 1000 HP until used, than 20 seconds of something with marginal effect. Kinda like Draconic - talk about completely useless tier 5 effect. Why bother? Now 20 seconds of things like Fury of the Wild Does matter and has an impact since it provides a sizable DPS. But 10k of HP is completely worthless. In a pick you can't even use it properly since it's about being able to survive long enough to let your DPS kill off what youre fighting. Fury of the Wild does, this destiny doesn't. After those 20 secs are gone, you're still doing piddly damage trying to carve a few HP of a beast. And once the time run out you're pulp.

[asdfghhjkl]

(any more than Unyielding Sovereignty is expected to actually heal 10,000 hit points).
Just as a total aside, I used Unyielding Sovereignty to heal Talbron in EE Brothers of the Forge. I wasn't sure what would happen if he died, so I wanted to keep him alive. And healing him for 30,000 hp (thanks to his healing amplification!) every 5 minutes helped keep him up. He definitely had far more than 30,000 hp, so none of it went to waste.

[Silverleafeon]

That is :
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Wobbuffet_(Pok%C3%A9mon)

Wobbuffet is usually a docile Pokémon that will never attack first. However, when it is attacked, it will inflate its body and initiate a counterstrike.

A defensive Pokémon that has awesome retribution strikes, when you damage it, you can die from your own attack being reflected upon you.

[SisAmethyst]

Thanks for the feedback Piloto and I understand that it takes time to tackle everything and trying to please us!


I will also start by answering #4. You are wrong; re-working the existing divine ED is not a requirement to allow the new destiny to be pure offensive divine caster. What I understood from those 14 pages is that we want the new ED to be divine caster (if not pure offensive) first and foremost. Then, adjustment to the 2 existing ED would be the secondary request, it would be the icing on the cake really!

Regarding point #1, you kind of got it. Currently, there’s 5 melee ED (LD, GMOF, FotW, ShadowDancer & US), 3 caster ED (EA, Draconic,Magister), 2 kind of hybrids (Primal Avatar for divine casters and some melee & Shiradi for caster or range i guess can be consider hybrids) and finally the lack luster Fate singer. Considering a melee divines has 5 ED options, there’s simply no need for a divine melee ED. At the moment, most divine caster i know our either shiradi or draconic and that’s sad.

#2:Got that right! There is a need for some source of DC boost for divine somewhere in the divine sphere! This is going to be the “cleric” ED right? Based on D&D PnP3.5, caster wise, the only difference in DC specialization between a cleric and a wizard is the wizard gets more feats. But they could both focus as much in a school reaching same DC. Also, Cleric ED should get DC boosting abilities before FVS. Again, cleric and wiz having less SP are supposed to be more efficient with the spells they use where as Fvs and Sorc are not as efficient but can cast more of said spells. Something like +2 or +3 to be chosen between necro and evocation in the cleric ED and also a +1 or +2 in the Exalted Angel ED would be perfect.

#3: Personally, if you do the cleric ED right, i don’t care so much about the others...but yes, they both need some love as once Divine has made his way around all the ED trees, they rarely go back to the divine sphere i would think.

[...]

This sent a shiver down my back.... the warpriest, really, please enlighten me as to what is caster related currently in the warpriest enhancement tree? I know it does not exist in DDO, but did you know that Clerics could cast a spell called Miracle!!!! You know how they did that, not by smacking something in the face with their holy weapon, they cast a freaking spell!!! This is going to be the Cleric ED, Clerics are casters! The reason why they were given shield and armor is because they are expected to be in the mist of things healing at very close range. That made it feasible for a Cleric to go either melee builds OR caster. Trust me, if Clerics had access to their full spell list (Domains to say the least and of course earthquake), most EPIC Cleric would be caster and not melee.

...

This post has some merit. A war priest usually should have access to the domains Destruction, Protection, Strength and/or War, and those domains include spells like:

Destruction Domain
Inflict ____ Wounds: Touch attack
Shatter: Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures.
Contagion: Infects subject with chosen disease.
Harm: Deals 10 points/level damage to target.
Disintegrate: Makes one creature or object vanish.
Earthquake: Intense tremor shakes 80-ft.-radius.
Implosion: Kills one creature/round.

Protection Domain
Sanctuary: Opponents can’t attack you, and you can’t attack.
Shield Other: You take half of subject’s damage.
Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
Spell Immunity: Subject is immune to one spell per four levels.
Spell Resistance: Subject gains SR 12 + level.
Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft.
Repulsion: Creatures can’t approach you.
Mind Blank: Subject is immune to mental/emotional magic and scrying.
Prismatic Sphere: As prismatic wall, but surrounds on all sides.

Strength Domain
Enlarge Person: Humanoid creature doubles in size.
Bull’s Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Magic Vestment: Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels.
Spell Immunity: Subject is immune to one spell per four levels.
Righteous Might: Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
Stoneskin: Ignore 10 points of damage per attack.
Grasping Hand: Large hand provides cover, pushes, or grapples.
Clenched Fist: Large hand provides cover, pushes, or attacks your foes.
Crushing Hand: Large hand provides cover, pushes, or crushes your foes.

War Domain
Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Spiritual Weapon: Magical weapon attacks on its own.
Magic Vestment: Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels.
Divine Power: You gain attack bonus, +6 to Str, and 1 hp/level.
Flame Strike: Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
Blade Barrier: Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.
Power Word Blind: Blinds creature with 200 hp or less.
Power Word Stun: Stuns creature with 150 hp or less.
Power Word Kill: Kills creature with 100 hp or less.

Sure you may only choose two domains and as far as I know loose the ability to cast cure or inflict spells spontaneously. While not available for Clerics in DDO, Earthquake is already on the regular cleric spell list, but with a combination of spells like Blade Barrier and Power Word Kill I would indeed not need to meele much.

[slarden]

Lots of empty space here.
Fill up the new ED and you could have enough stuff for both a melee and a caster.

Doing some math, we have 24 points to spend atm.
With the increase of ED to level 10, we should have 16 more for a total of 40.
If the left side of the new divine ed is str/wis, then players could spend 2x6=12 points there.

If I was a dev, I could pack up 28 points to spend on melee and 28 points to spend on casters
all in one ED. I could do it, can you?

There were 6 levels when the level cap was 25 - 1 for each epic level when the level cap was 25 plus an "epic moment" level. I am not sure how the devs can add 5-6 useful levels without making epic leveling through quests in the low 20s incredibly easy. It seems more like they are expanding EDs through ED feats which aren't available until higher levels.

I like having a power bump @ 20 from a full ED tree, but I think it would be too much to give a full 10/11 level tree @ level 20 plus more and better twists.

I would rather see really good epic feats @ level 29 and 30 so character power levels up slower rather than mostly at level 20. Perhaps even level 30 epic feats that were more like packages that gave a few passive/active abilities rather than one.

[Deamus]

Developers if you want suggestions for improvements you should provide some kind of detailed mockup of the new ED and the changes you are willing to do.

Forumites lose their time by suggesting things that cannot be applied due to limitations only you know . Thus you cannot have a constructive feedback from the community.Give us more information to work with .

The information we have already are not detailed or out of date.

[Deamus]

To the above posters : Work with what we got ,its useless and loss of time to suggest changes disregarding completely the vague limitations of the OP.

[Silverleafeon]

I like having a power bump @ 20 from a full ED tree, but I think it would be too much to give a full 10/11 level tree @ level 20 plus more and better twists..

I agree.

If one only adds more epic points to spend ~ 16 more, last I counted; along with innates for level 6 thru 10, that would be enough.
No need to add anything more to the trees, there is plenty to spend points on already.
Although one could fill in holes in existing trees.

Certainly no need to add tier 7 or higher, the tree itself could stay as is.

The additional innates could have a level cap on them, and they need not be overpowered.
Caster levels would increase due to epic destiny levels increasing, along with some hit points and spell points, etc.


Myself could always use a few more points spent in the existing trees;
But yes, very nice high level feats is a good option.

[Silverleafeon]

http://ddowiki.com/images/MechanicTree.png

This has 20 levels but only 5 tiers.


http://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Unyielding.png

So why cannot this have 10 levels but only 6 tiers?


By the way this looks awfully bare up top, don't you think?

[-Avalon-]

Simply put, to make Unyielding Sentinel a pretty awesome tree (on par with LD and FotW) but for tanking purposes instead of pure raw DPS purposes: Make one of the core abilities give a toggle for Intimidation Aura. If you have it turned ON, then you constantly exude an aura that pulses 1 per second Intimidation rolls, and each core adds 5 to the roll or something... Or, make the aura give you X amount of threat buildup, modified by +X threat buffs/items/effects and *X buffs/items/effects... Each core adds an amount, or adds an extra *1, AND make it so each core extends the range by some amount, so if core 0 gave ability, then core 5 would give *5 to your threatening aura and it would stretch out a decent distance as well, pulling some enemies in.

I think THIS would assist in making tanks a viable option again, after that, fix shields somehow, or fix the evasion problem.

EVASION:
My opinion on how to fix this problem, is to give more tanky types a form of evasion that works off of Constitution instead... We have feats like Force of Personality and Insightful Reflexes already adding other stats into saves, why not make a feat (given for free to fighters or paladins or something) that allows the character to use their Con for reflex instead of Dex, and gives same bonus as evasion gives (100% or 0% damage)... Tank types do not evade things, true... but what they do is "Brace for Impact" and then shrug off the effects, and since blocking is a huge cluster*... let's take the blocking out, and give the tank types a way to be equal again. Right now, the only things that really matter end game are DPS, HP, Evasion, Saves... Dodge is a bit dodgy, displacement is useless due to almost every enemy having TS, incorp seems to be almost useless (I think almost all enemies have ghost touch as well maybe?), and AC is a joke unless you have over 130 or so. Does not seem all that different than things used to be before the 'combat fix'... just buff your HP as much as possible while doing tremendous DPS and having high saves/evasion if possible...

As for the new divine tree? Divide it in half: left side for melee abilities, right side for caster abilities. No need for defensive specced stuff or healing specced stuff here, if you want those things twist em in from US or EA, or twist stuff from HERE into those if you want the cores of those trees. Melee side should be about bringing divine judgment melee style, and caster side should be about calling down the wrath of the Gods above. This should be the Divine Harbinger ED, you aren't an angel or a saint, but the bringer of your God's brand of justice and punishment. And if a person wants, they can go pure melee side, or pure caster side, or a mix of both, they are still limited to the max amt of pts, so it would work out IF planned properly.

[Silverleafeon]

Sigh, Astral Vibrance does not increment the light stack counter.

So DISREGARD everything I said about it being a substitute for an archon.

Not sure if that is WAI...

By the way its disappointing too, it only hits for a dozen or less light damage.

[Kik97]

I don't know if anyone has asked or suggested this, but can any changes to the existing epic divine destinies be done without causing a reset of destiny action points for those trees. It is a real pain when you make changes on the heroic prestige class trees and reset all the points for those trees affected. Isn't there a way to automatically redistribute the points already spent if there are any point cost changes.

[Leclaire1]

Thanks everyone for your interest and input on last month’s post on the new Divine Epic Destiny. Based on your feedback, we’ve made some changes to our design, and we’d like to share with you where things are headed for this new destiny.

You;re welcome and thank you for listening. :)



In addition to the above suggestions, another idea that many seemed to like was this:
4. Substantially reworking the two existing divine destinies to allow for the new destiny to be a pure offensive divine caster.

I’ll speak to number 4 first. This idea has some merit, but… it would require a lot of time and, more importantly, a lot more time than we actually have to work on destinies for the near and midterm future. We’ve got a full schedule of other improvements, and a major rework of multiple destinies is too big a task to fit in. So instead of doing this, we’re going to tackle the other suggestions on the above list. By acting on these, we think we should be able to address some of the concerns that made people suggest number 4, because there is some good overlap between them.

I'm actually quite glad that you chose to go this route. While many players have argues that there are lots of melee destinies and not any for casters, this is not really true in my opinion. Divine casters also have 5 destinies to pick from, and can take shiradi to augment their nuking as well as primal avatar, magister, or even draconic incarnation in addition to angel, so theoretically there are a lot of options there as well. I think the better approach, which this new path embodies, is trying to round out the divine sphere as a whole. Currently it does have a caster destiny in angel, which lacks primarily in divine dc casting, which will be addressed by the new destiny. It also has a destiny almost exclusively focused on defense in Sentinel, but nothing that augments holy melee fighting. As such, I think this a far superior solution in and of itself to changing the destiny to be entirely caster focused. Also, the destiny system is supposed to be flexible enough for various destinies to accomodate a variety of classes and playstyles. I feel like this plan fits that, whereas the impulse to make it an entirely caster destiny is an overstated response to the very legitimate felt need for a divine DC casting option.



To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest. This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities.

As stated above, I think this is a very good approach. A couple of suggetions as you do this though. Firstly, it would be nice if the divine dc stuff was twistable at a low enough tier that one could use it in Exalted Angel. This would greatly help in giving a variety of caster options, and maybe help those who would like the opportunity ti max out a divine caster destiny. Secondly, some sort of epic holy sword idea as suggested by someone else on the previous thread would be a really nice touch, esp. for those of us who are pnp fans.



In order to address point 3, we’d also like to make a set of changes to the other two divine epic destinies to adjust their roles and amplify their power level. While this will definitely amount to less than a complete reworking of these trees, we hope to be able to go through the trees and make several changes for the better. Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel.


I think some changes especially to Sentinel would be good. While I mentioned before I usually run my cleric on it now, I was reflecting the other day on how boring it is. He has all passive, defensive abilities which make him unkillable and are useful in raids, but almost no active clicky abilties, whereas in angel he has lots of fun stuff to use which he uses all the time. Even on my melee toons it mostly gives a little extra alignment damage for DR breaking or smites, which aren't too great unless you're a pa;adin whio has upgraded them to the exalted version. It'd be nice to see some strong attacks added to this destiny. Also, as others have mentioned, the epic moment for Sentinel leaves a bit to be desired. As Varg stated the goal is for it to be twenty seconds of invulnerability, which while it sounds nice in theory, is really not that great in practice, unless you;re tanking the LoB when he decides to go ice skating. I realize it might take too much development time to completely change it, and as such a better solution might be MASSIVELY changing the counter which you needs to charge it up. If it could be used often it would actually be worth it in a variety of situations, but while running two major toons on this destiny I have NEVER seen it even charge up to 200, making the ability completely useless to may builds. If it needed to charge up to twenty with a two to three minute cooldown, then twenty seconds of invulnerability would be quite nice. I regularly the epic moments for GMoF, Fury, Shiradi. and Avatar, all of which charge up at what seems like a reasonable rate. If you fix both divine destinies to match this a bit and allow these destinies to be actually used I think this woulc be a very welcome change.

As for Angel, I generally like the destiny as a whole. It has a lot of flexibility and fun options, and lacks mostly only in DC casting, which the new destiny will address. The only changes I think are critical here are for the epic moment. As with above, while I actually am sometimes able to use Reborn in Light, it still takes way longer to charge up than any other destiny, and as such I can;t use it very often. as with the above, it is certainly not greater in power level than the Fury or GMoF epic moments which are relatively easy to charge up, and as such shouldnt have a longer build up time. Also, as mentioned by others, it is really lame that you can only get the full benefits of Reborn if you are dead. Dying is some thing most ddo players try really hard to avoid. I'm not against the ability being able to also raise you if dead as an added back up and perk, but the full benefits shouldnt be dependent on dying. Change this ability so you get all benefits if you are dead and re or are alive and you'll have a winner.

Thanks again for listening!

[Catteras]

Great to see progress here, but what we'd really like to see is fixes to existing BROKEN enhancements like eldritch knight's scroll mastery. Please don't neglect the sorcerer, she's already hugely underpowered and barely made it into the enhancement pass to begin with. Right now the overly-nerfed sorc is what needs attention.

Really? I was just in study in sable on EH, and the sorc was single handedly one or two shotting every group of enemies. With ice spells. Not shiradi spamming.

Sorc looked pretty darn powerful there...

[Deadnettle]

If I understand correctly, the idea of this new destiny is a kind of mosh. Some melee bonuses, some healing bonuses, some casting bonuses. You would want to use this

1) when soloing on your melee - give up some offense from Dred, Avatar, Fury or Shadow for the healing
2) when in a party with no dedicated healer
3) an alternative when you need to earn Divine Karma that's more flexible and fun than the 'tanking' and 'healing' destinies

I was thinking about how the heals should work in this context, and I have a suggestion. Thinking about how heals are fit into Avatar, Cocoon, has me thinking. IMO there are a few problems with Cocoon. You would want the heals in the new destiny to be different.

First, it's too easy to twist Cocoon. It should have been put up on level 4. It's that powerful. Being on level 1, players don't have to be in Avatar to use it, they can just twist it and pretty much heal themselves through any content, ignoring the destiny itself.

Perhaps the thing to do would be to put the heals in the core abilities along the bottom. After all, heals are a core concept of the build. Have them build up slowly by level and not available to twist. This way people will actually be encouraged to use the destiny, unlike avatar, which has mostly become a twist (the monk of destinies) in my circles.

The other issue with cocoon is that, it doesn't synergize well with assassins, pale masters or barbarians. You can't use it while raged. It breaks invis. It no longer seems to help Pale Masters. GOOD. Cocoon shouldn't do those things, IMO. However, if you are designing a destiny with the idea that assassins and barbarians will use it while soloing, you want the heals in the new destiny to work with their core abilities.

Not sure if you intend this as an alternative for casters. Trade some of the offensive ability in Magister or Draconic for heals? If so then the healing maybe should work on pale masters too.

So the new heals should work while raged, stealthed, invis. And it shouldn't be quite so easy to twist.

Just my 2 cp.

[SirValentine]

While many players have argues that there are lots of melee destinies and not any for casters, this is not really true in my opinion. Divine casters also have 5 destinies to pick from, and can take shiradi to augment their nuking as well as primal avatar, magister, or even draconic incarnation in addition to angel, so theoretically there are a lot of options there as well.


Of those 5 destinies you're claiming as choices for divine casters, only one of them actually gives Clr/FvS caster levels and Wisdom increases. So...really there is only 1 option. That's why I use EA on a Clr or Fvs, not because it's awesome, but simply because, while not being amazingly fun or powerful, it at least covers the bare essentials, which no other destiny does. That's sad.



...the very legitimate felt need for a divine DC casting option.
<snip>
As for Angel, I generally like the destiny as a whole. It has a lot of flexibility and fun options, and lacks mostly only in DC casting

I want real caster destiny as good for Clr/FvS as Draconic or Magister are for Wiz/Sorc. We don't have that.

Whether they do that by improving EA or giving us a new caster destiny, I don't care, but it doesn't sound like they are willing to do EITHER. I'll be happy to be proved wrong on that point.

Heck, they can just make all destinies more generic instead of so class-specific and I'll be happy, too. Make all destinies that give caster-level increases give them to any class. Make all destinies give any stat on the right-hand column. I'll play happily play Magister Cleric if I can get +6 Wisdom and +5 caster levels from it the same way a Wiz can get +6 Int and +5 caster levels. And then that Wiz is less screwed in an "off" destiny, too, running Exalted Angel when he needs to level up the Divine sphere, too, without having to give up Int or Wiz caster levels.

They pretended destinies were going to be generic when they were first talking about them, but then implemented many of them tightly coupled only to specific heroic classes.

[SirValentine]

I was just in study in sable on EH, and the sorc was single handedly one or two shotting every group of enemies. With ice spells. Not shiradi spamming.

Sorc looked pretty darn powerful there...

It was EH. Any build can look pretty darn powerful with a good player behind it.

[Desonde]

For what it's worth, blocking stops knockbacks (and some other negative effects).

All knockbacks or just the ones associated with giants? Because I know this isn't the case with air elementals or djinns.



Well I can confirm that it does block the giant's knockbacks, but it doesn't block all knockbacks, and still doesn't address that actively blocking isn't a viable solution (you have almost as much time to setup your block as it takes for them to swing, meaning you might get 1 hit in each of their attack cycles).

[Violith]

Lay on Hands doesn't regenerate at all without Endless Lay on Hands. The 10% reduction after that does stack in the same as that +1 Lay on Hands stacks, so rank 3 is 20% faster than rank 1 in addition to providing +2 Lay on Hands uses. We can try to clarify that text further to make that clear and more consistent with how we usually present that information.



The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work. But this is a good example of how presentation matters, and we could have done better.

There are of course other possible changes which we are happy for players to suggest as part of our re-examination of divine Epic Destinties, but the intent was never to actually grant 10,000 temporary hitpoints for full use (any more than Unyielding Sovereignty is expected to actually heal 10,000 hit points). Again, sorry for the confusion.

unless it was fixed internally, Endless lay on hands (and endless smiting) are both broken in that they dont lower the regen rate at all, endless loh does allow it to regen but increasing teirs dont cause them to regen faster from what I can tell.

as for the epic destiny, I gotta agree with everyone else here. 200 hits/misses is too long to way, Even on norm, by zerging through a dungeon to pulll as many mobs as you can, its impossible to build this up to a point where it worthwhile. All epic destiny moments charges should persist through resting and portals. and if its meant to make a character invulnerable. it should do that, not add 10k temp hp that only lats 20sec. That isnt useful anywhere. And there are a handful of places where even that large stock of hp can get depleted before 20sec is up. So it doesnt do what its supposed to if it was suppsoed to make them invulberable. I'd suggest lowering the charge amount significantly (like to 20-30) or to make it once every so many minutes (like 5-10).

the EA destiny needs it CD timer to be lowered significantly as well.

also, not sure what the plan is. but it'd be nice for destinies to increase to lvl 10 (character lvl 30), even if these later levels are gated by character level and only add AP, there is plent of stuff to buy in most destinies with more AP. however, I can understand not wanting people to acquire all that power once they hit 20, so gating extra AP by character level should help relieve that. It'd help out casters since Caster lvl (useful for spell pen, etc) is based on epic destiny level rather then epic level. that means that at lvl 30, a caster not in a correct destiny is casting at lvl 20, and 10 difference in spellpen makes a huge difference.

[spectroum]

The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work. But this is a good example of how presentation matters, and we could have done better.

just an interesting piece of info i stumbled upon here...

"Audience with the Queen is one of the Epic Moments of the Epic Destiny Shiradi Champion. When you use this power, you get teleported to the chambers of the Queen of Summer to share some tea and chat for 7 seconds. During this time, you are invulnerable and can't be damaged, but also can't attack." - source DDO wiki


Hi



/sarcasm off

[Ancient]

This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities.
I hope you surprise me. Because the first two divine trees have a mix and failed to be strong at either. Even if they are strong at both, there are not enough options to have much diversity of choices other than melee or caster...

I hope you pull it off, but I'm doubtful.

[Silverleafeon]

Well, if I adjust to your requirements then:

http://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Exalted.png


Take a tree like that.



I don't want to see any empty spaces at all, please


The far right could be +1 str or +1 wis, imho.
Tier 1 thru 6

The 2nd from the right column could be spellcasting boosts:
Tier 1: Temporary spell power boost
Tier 2: +1~+3 DC evocation/necromancy
Tier 3: +1~+3 spellcraft
Tier 4: Increase caster level +1~+3 of evocation/necromancy spells
Tier 5: Decrease cooldown of evocation/necromancy spells by 5~15%
Tier 6: Aura effect with uberness



The middle column could be SLAs choice of evocation or necrotic
Tier 1: Soundburst/Chill Touch
Tier 2: Sunbolt/Halt Undead
Tier 3: Bladebarrier/Eneration
Tier 4: Earthquake/Negative Energy Burst
Tier 5: Heal/Harm
Tier 6: Implosion/Wail


The 4th column from the right could be melee special stuff.
Tier 1: Aura of whatever listed by devs
Tier 2: Increase aura of whatever
Tier 3: Smite type attack
Tier 4: Smites have knockdown
Tier 5: Cleave Smite type Attack
Tier 6: Whirlwind Smite type attack


The 5th column from the right could be bonuses to favored weapons.
Tier 1: you can claim a single simple weapon to add to your favored weapon list, +1 enhancement bonus stacking to all favored weapons
Tier 2: you can claim a single martial weapon to add to your favored weapon list, +1 enhancement bonus stacking to all favored weapons
Tier 3: you can claim a exotic simple weapon to add to your favored weapon list, +1 enhancement bonus stacking to all favored weapons
Tier 4: seeker bonus to favored weapons
Tier 5: critical hit multiplier to favored weapon
Tier 6: critical hit greater range to favored weapon

[PsychoBlonde]

For what it's worth, blocking stops knockbacks (and some other negative effects).

This would be GREAT if the quest objectives didn't require you to actually, you know, KILL anything. You're not going to get anywhere if you spend the entire quest blocking.

For what it's worth, the problem isn't that they knockback in general, it's that they do it CONSTANTLY, on EVERY attack, regardless of whether they hit or miss.

Blocking an attack that is THAT common is just plain not feasible. If you're attacking it can take upwards of 2 seconds for you to actually drop down into block mode and that's just not a fast enough reaction time to make this twitch stuff work--assuming everything is perfectly synched up, too, which is just not realistic in most MMO's and CERTAINLY not in this one. If I can SOLO a quest (and we've got a 10+ MB cable connection) and kick out damage so fast that in a big fight it'll still be scrolling numbers for 5+ seconds after everything is dead, then I cannot possibly rely on a visual animation to tell me when it's time to block when I REALLY need to be kicking out damage.

[mikarddo]

Thanks everyone for your interest and input on last month’s post on the new Divine Epic Destiny. Based on your feedback, we’ve made some changes to our design, and we’d like to share with you where things are headed for this new destiny.

Some of the key suggestions we gathered so far from last month’s thread:
1. Having the new destiny be melee centric to the exclusion of other niches like spellcasting may be undesirable.
2. Including a boost to Divine Spell DCs would be great.
3. Making some changes and improvements to Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel would be most welcome.

In addition to the above suggestions, another idea that many seemed to like was this:
4. Substantially reworking the two existing divine destinies to allow for the new destiny to be a pure offensive divine caster.

I’ll speak to number 4 first. This idea has some merit, but… it would require a lot of time and, more importantly, a lot more time than we actually have to work on destinies for the near and midterm future. We’ve got a full schedule of other improvements, and a major rework of multiple destinies is too big a task to fit in. So instead of doing this, we’re going to tackle the other suggestions on the above list. By acting on these, we think we should be able to address some of the concerns that made people suggest number 4, because there is some good overlap between them.

To address points 1 and 2 above, we will likely be making the new destiny fit a more hybrid melee/spellcaster role, a little like warpriest. This doesn’t mean it will be watered down and ineffective at both. Rather, it will have a strong mix of viable options for melees as well as caster hybrids. The new destiny will be strong in melee and be fun for melee oriented characters to play, but it will also have some key spell casting abilities and enhancements that will be of interest to divine casters, such as a significant boost to divine casting DCs and some strong spell-like abilities.

In order to address point 3, we’d also like to make a set of changes to the other two divine epic destinies to adjust their roles and amplify their power level. While this will definitely amount to less than a complete reworking of these trees, we hope to be able to go through the trees and make several changes for the better. Some of these will include giving more melee potency to the Unyielding Sentinel, and giving more healing emphasis and general spell efficacy to the Exalted Angel.

As we get closer to filling out the new destiny’s tree, we’ll be looking at this thread (as well as back through the 14 pages of the original thread) to see if we can incorporate any more of your ideas. Thanks again for your input.

Thank you for the information but please reconsider.
- making EA stronger for healing isnt a good option. Healing isnt really a main role in DDO but more of a secondary role for divines.
- making a mixed melee/caster destiny isnt going to make anyone happen. Either make a strong divine melee destiny (hint, it has to compete with a blitzing LD favorably for divines or it wont be used much if at all) OR make it a top notch divine DC caster destiny.

Since you seem set on making it a melee destiny I suggest you do that - and then upgrade EA by adding some more offensive casting power. This can be done in many ways and quite easily so it does not at all require a fulld rebuild of the destiny. One way would be to:
- reduce cooldown on Epic Moment to 10 mins
- add quicken, maximize and empower to Divine Wrath
- add +1 evoc DC to every other core ability
- add +1 necro DC to every other core ability
- half the cooldown on divine light

Please run your idea past the new player council once its chosen in a week from now before you finish anything. What you have suggested seem uniformly against what that players actually asked for to me so getting a player perspective would be good before releasing anything.

[Silverleafeon]

Since you seem set on making it a melee destiny I suggest you do that - and then upgrade EA by adding some more offensive casting power. This can be done in many ways and quite easily so it does not at all require a fulld rebuild of the destiny. One way would be to:
- reduce cooldown on Epic Moment to 10 mins
- add quicken, maximize and empower to Divine Wrath
- add +1 evoc DC to every other core ability
- add +1 necro DC to every other core ability
- half the cooldown on divine light

Please run your idea past the new player council once its chosen in a week from now before you finish anything. What you have suggested seem uniformly against what that players actually asked for to me so getting a player perspective would be good before releasing anything.
virtual +1
You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later..

[Brunhildha]

Thank you for the information but please reconsider.
- making EA stronger for healing isnt a good option. Healing isnt really a main role in DDO but more of a secondary role for divines.
- making a mixed melee/caster destiny isnt going to make anyone happen. Either make a strong divine melee destiny (hint, it has to compete with a blitzing LD favorably for divines or it wont be used much if at all) OR make it a top notch divine DC caster destiny.

Since you seem set on making it a melee destiny I suggest you do that - and then upgrade EA by adding some more offensive casting power. This can be done in many ways and quite easily so it does not at all require a fulld rebuild of the destiny. One way would be to:
- reduce cooldown on Epic Moment to 10 mins
- add quicken, maximize and empower to Divine Wrath
- add +1 evoc DC to every other core ability
- add +1 necro DC to every other core ability
- half the cooldown on divine light

Please run your idea past the new player council once its chosen in a week from now before you finish anything. What you have suggested seem uniformly against what that players actually asked for to me so getting a player perspective would be good before releasing anything.

Suported

[Arlathen]

This is how I see how things should shape up:

The new destiny should Offensive Divine Caster. Period.
Unyielding Sentinal needs to be buffed, and be made into the 'Melee' Divine Destiny
Exalted Angel needs to re-worked somewhat, and shaped into the Hybrid Melee/Caster Destiny


I think this is the the best compromise between what you've designed already and what the community is asking for. I don't even play casters, never mind Offensive DC specced ones and I can see that as the perfect niche to fill. Exalted Angel is littered with a combination of Light, Healing and Melee abilities, and would suit the Hybrid divine. Finally, Unyielding Sentinel only needs some work to existing abilities and DPS improvements over what is already there.

Some Additional thoughts:

If you don't have the resource to make a good job of all three, you should re-work the existing destinies first and then work on adding a new destiny at a later date. Improving existing abilities that are below-par is much more preferable to me than trying to introduce a new set of headaches in a new destiny.
If you decide instead to work on the Offensive Destiny, does so exclusively until it 100% finished and the community is happy with it.




Everything below here can be ignored if your not looking for actual suggestions on abilities, but because I'm exercising my voice of opinion right now here it comes :)

In terms of what I would like to see as possible implementation/changes:

The 'New' Destiny
- There's no problem with adding the same Caster Level increases (and thus, +Spell Pen) and bonus SP that Exalted Angel has into this destiny as well. It's been done before in the Arcane Sphere with Draconic/Magister, so I don't see a problem with this. Choice between destinies is good.

- The new destiny should revolve around DC based spell casting with some interesting SLA choices. Ways to get that DC boosted should be the focus here. Massively so for short periods of time.

- As well as DC spell casting, a possible extension is to go for DoT-based damage instead of a Direct Damage. Let Shiradi/Arcane continue to be the 'Blaster' archetype, while the Divine gets the 'efficient-over-time' methodology.

- A'la Draconic, remember that added spells should user Character Level and not Class Level for calculating base Caster Levels.

- Give it an 'Armageddon' Epic Moment Spell, a'la Everything is Nothing or an Implosion-style spell lasting a decent amount of time.



Unyieding Sentinal
- Unyielding Sentinal needs to be made the primary 'Melee' Divine destiny, with increases in DPS that make it attractive alongside Legendary Dreadnought / Fury of the Wild when its Defensive abilties also are taken into the equation.

- My main issues in the destiny is that it just lacks any kind of real puch. +3D6 Damage from Purify/Anoint Weapon when in Stand against the Tide is just really lame compared to what's available in FotW and LD. And that's even considering the defensive benefits that the Destiny gives.

- The Epic Moment is also seriously 'un-Epic' in feel or use.


Bane of Undeath
- Change the Vigor of Battle element to grant Greater Disruption (a'la Greensteel) to weapons equipped. Does not work on handwraps.

Confront Any Foe
- Increase the Damage to 20D20 as well as provide +3[W], it needs buffing to be of any real use.
- Increase the Cooldown to 15s

Fanaticism
- Change the Unbreakable element to grant Vorpal to weapons equipped if Lawful or Chaotic. Does not work on handwraps.

Spark of Life
- Upgrade this to grant permanent Deathward instead of Deathblock.

Purify Weapon
- Change the Stand Against the Tide element to grant Greater Good to weapons equipped, in turn granting DR/Good bypass. Does not work on handwraps.

Anoint Weapon
- Change the Stand Against the Tide element to grant +1[W] damage and +1 Critical Multiplier to equipped weapons. Does not work on handwraps.

Undying Vanguard
- Rename to 'Divine Avenger'
- Gain a stack of Vengeance everytime you are are hit or missed, physically or magically.
- Enable 'Divine Avenger' Epic Moment on 25 stacks of Vengeance
- On activating 'Divine Avenger', gain a stack of Righteousness and clear Vengeance stacks.
- Gain a stack of Righteousness every time you melee critical hit
- Stacks of Righteousness last 15s, before decaying
- Maximum stack of Righteousness is 10, with further Melee Critical hits refreshing the stack
- Each stack grants +1 To Hit, +10 Melee Damage, +1 All Saves, +5 AC and +10HP
- If Righteousness stacks run out, 'Divine Avenger' effect ends
- Cannot gain stacks of Vengeance while under 'Divine Avenger' effect
- Cooldown 5 minutes between uses

This would make the Epic Moment alot more of a functional ability in alot of different situations - Melee trash hunting or raid boss fighting, without going down the road of being a serious 'multiplier' effect like Masters Blitz. It also encourages defensive aspects of the character, with a purposeful improvement over time to AC, Saves and HP. Finally, it would discourage the typical avoidance tricks of Monks and Arcanes in use, as it still relies on being 'missed' to gain the Vengeance stacks.


Exalted Angel

- The destiny has got a alot of things right in the Innates and Tiers 1 to 3. Starting with Blood and Radiance, and the attached T4-T5 abilties, is where it goes very wrong.

- The destiny already accomodates a balance of Melee and Casting abilities, making it the perfect choice for balancing as a Hybrid.

- Blood & Radiance is a very poor mechanic to work with as the stack durations are so limiting. A sticking plaster fix would simply be to massively increase the stack durations, reduce the stack benefits and rework the attached abilities to not remove stacks on use. I'd prefer instead to see this whole mechanic taken out and shot through the head though.

If your talking a proper re-working of the tree though:

Blood & Radiance
- Change Blood & Radiance to gain 1 Fervour on Melee Critical hit or Light-based spell use.
- Change Blood & Radiance to gain 1 Ardor on Positive Energy spell or ability use (LOH).
- Change Maximum stacks to Rank dependant - 10, 20, 30.
- Each stack of Fervour grants +1 Light Spell Power
- 5 stacks of Fervour grants +1 Melee Damage
- Each stack of Ardor grants +1 Positive Spell Power
- 5 stacks of Ardor grants +1% Positive Critical Chance
- Edit: Fervour/Ardor stacks do not expire or have a duration
- Remove all Ardor and Fervour stacks on Rest or Death.

Divine Wrath
- Change Divine Wrath to allow Quicken Metamagic. Fix the hard target issue.
- Change Divine Wrath to require 10 Stacks of Fervour to use.
- Change Divine Wrath to deal 1D6 Light Damage per 6 Character Levels, per 5 stacks of Fervour
-- Total 30D6 Damage at Character Level 30 with 30 Fervour stacks
-- Retain Will Save mechanic for Half Damage
- Change Divine Wrath to deal 2D6 Positive Healing per 10 Character Levels, per 10 stacks of Ardor
-- Total 18D6 healing at Character Level 30 with 30 Ardor stacks
- Alter Cooldown to 30s
- Remove the Stack Consumption element.
A little more something offensive without going to far, retained as a T6 ability. Much easier to setup and manage over time, without taking away from the characters other roles or focus.

Strike Down
- Change to 'On Hit after Damage destroy target Evil enemy under 1000HP'.
- Retain other current effects
- Remove the Stack Consumption
Great ability if it wasn't for, yet again, the horrible stack micro-management.

Excoriate
- Change to apply to all offensive spells and melee attacks.
Far more useful ability than just on smites or only light spells. Retaining the 3% chance means it doesn't get out of hand like Nerve Venom can.

Rebuke Foe
- Change to have each Rebuke stack a 20s duration
- Change the ability to have a 12s cooldown.
- Remove the Stack Consumption
Gives the ability a useful, single target debuffing aspect without it getting difficult to micro-manage stacks or allowing it to get out of control over multiple enemies.

Be at Peace
- Rename to 'Stand and be Judged'
- Single Target, 10s Stun, No save
- 2 Minute Cooldown
- Remove the Stack Consumption
Its really not that useful at present. Give it more use as an occasional proper stun ability.

Reborn in Light
- Requires 15 Stacks of Fervour and 15 Stacks of Ardor
- When 15 of each stack reached, gain 1 Reborn Counter
- Removes all Stacks of Fervour and Ardor when used and clears the Reborn Counter
- Ability may be used when dead, as long as Reborn Counter = 1
- Activates Ascendance, even if it on cooldown.
- Ascendance's 'Radiant Blast' Proc changes from 'on Vorpal' to 'on Critical' vs all enemies.
- Also grants 50% Incorporeal, +100 Light & Positive Spell Power
- Duration 120 seconds, Cooldown 5 minutes between uses.
There we go, a great little Epic Moment useful to both casters and melee types as a Hybrid ability for both.

Wall-o-text over, hope there's some ideas there that can be used.

[Ancient]

This would be GREAT if the quest objectives didn't require you to actually, you know, KILL anything. You're not going to get anywhere if you spend the entire quest blocking.

Not that it is a workable strategy now, but with proc on getting hit effects... you can indeed shield block your way through a lot of kills. I used to solo sins of attrition on elite and spend most of the time shield blocking. It was slow.

[PsychoBlonde]

I think a mixed destiny could work well, but it depends a lot on what that "mix" entails. Shiradi is a mixed casting/archery destiny, after all.

[SirValentine]

Shiradi is a mixed casting/archery destiny, after all.

That's not how I'd describe it. Most of Shiradi's abilities proc from either ranged or spell attacks; it's not that it's half ranged abilities and a separate half caster abilities.

I have a hard time seeing how melee abilities competitive with LD or Fury are going to be useful to a DC caster, or how spell pen or DCs are going to interest melees.

[Ancient]

I think a mixed destiny could work well, but it depends a lot on what that "mix" entails. Shiradi is a mixed casting/archery destiny, after all.

Tell me that min/max archers are picking shiradi over fury and Ill conceed the point. Otherwise it is one more example where a pure weapon destiny comes out ahead of a mixed one. The reason casters pick shiradi is because magister/draconic simply aren't very good destinies.

[EllisDee37]

I have a hard time seeing how melee abilities competitive with LD or Fury are going to be useful to a DC caster, or how spell pen or DCs are going to interest melees.Well, just to play devil's advocate, for the latter a melee would be interested in DCs if they also applied to tactical abilities.

[bennyson]

NNNNOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

The Divine Epic Destiny Sphere does not, I repeat, does NOT NEED ANOTHER MELEE FOCUSED DESTINY!

What Players Want:

A SPELL DC FOCUSED DESTINY FOR DIVINES, similar to Magister.

What Players Don't Want:

ANOTHER MELEE DESTINY FOR DIVINES, seriously! Let Unyielding Sentinel be the melee focused destiny after you tweak and rework it.

Overall, we players want a spell DC focused destiny for divines with a niche of melee and healing, not vise versa.

[bennyson]

Confront Any Foe
- Increase the Damage to 20D20 as well as provide +3[W], it needs buffing to be of any real use.
- Increase the Cooldown to 15s.

Dude, do you even use this or do you just read the misleading description of the ability?

Confront Any Foe isn't a single strike attack, it hits your target twice, dealing 20d20 points of light damage per use instead of what it officially says, AND if you manage to proc a Double strike affect during its use, it will deal 40d40 points of light damage.

I vote NO against increasing the cooldown.

[Deamus]

NNNNOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

The Divine Epic Destiny Sphere does not, I repeat, does NOT NEED ANOTHER MELEE FOCUSED DESTINY!

What Players Want:

A SPELL DC FOCUSED DESTINY FOR DIVINES, similar to Magister.

What Players Don't Want:

ANOTHER MELEE DESTINY FOR DIVINES, seriously! Let Unyielding Sentinel be the melee focused destiny after you tweak and rework it.

Overall, we players want a spell DC focused destiny for divines with a niche of melee and healing, not vise versa.

Please don't speak for the players , that's only your opinion in capital not of the community!

I agree with the OP.

[Jasparion]

Please don't speak for the players , that's only your opinion in capital not of the community!

I agree with the OP.

And you know this how?

In this thread most posts have been asking for Divines to get a DC boost. I have not seen too many people saying "what we need is more melee focus". Most have said the fix should include a boost to the melee focus which already exists. Not to add another option.

[Deamus]

And you know this how?

In this thread most posts have been asking for Divines to get a DC boost. I have not seen too many people saying "what we need is more melee focus". Most have said the fix should include a boost to the melee focus which already exists. Not to add another option.

If you consider the 4-5 people swarming all the thread to be considered as the community, then you got a problem of perception.....

[Jasparion]

If you consider the 4-5 people swarming all the thread to be considered as the community, then you got a problem of perception.....

I saw 10 different names on the first 2 pages of this thread and then stopped counting.

There were dozens in the original thread.

I dont recall seeing many with your view. Which is odd. Normally the Defenders come out and spam their congratulatory posts in order to shout down the masses of disapproval.

[Arlathen]

.... you just read the misleading description of the ability?....

Well, that's half the problem, isn't it. Bit like how Strike Down in Exalted Angel doesn't reset Righteous Fervour stacks despite its description, hmm? :)

Although tbh, if that's the only nitpick in my long list of suggestions I'm flattered.

[Arlathen]

Confront Any Foe isn't a single strike attack, it hits your target twice, dealing 20d20 points of light damage per use instead of what it officially says, AND if you manage to proc a Double strike affect during its use, it will deal 40d40 points of light damage.


Tbh, I'd rather twist in Momentum Swing than use this 'Channel Divinity' limited ability. Unless its doing really, really uber damage, only using attack maybe 10 times per rest isn't cutting it compared to what else is on the table.

So again, I say make Unyielding Sentinal <the> Melee Destiny for Divine orientated Melee's to be in, and not just some ****-tastic HP padded defensive fluff.

[bennyson]

Tbh, I'd rather twist in Momentum Swing than use this 'Channel Divinity' limited ability. Unless its doing really, really uber damage, only using attack maybe 10 times per rest isn't cutting it compared to what else is on the table.

So again, I say make Unyielding Sentinal <the> Melee Destiny for Divine orientated Melee's to be in, and not just some ****-tastic HP padded defensive fluff.

Am not trying to disagree that Unyielding Sentinel shouldn't be tweaked and reworked, I fully support the idea of changing it so that it can compete with the dps output of Dreadnought or Fury and slightly improve the defense options to add more value to the destiny as a whole. Although increase the 10d10 to 20d20 and adding +3[W] damage is good too.

I still, however, go against increasing the cooldown.

[Arlathen]

Am not trying to disagree that Unyielding Sentinel shouldn't be tweaked and reworked, I fully support the idea of changing it so that it can compete with the dps output of Dreadnought or Fury and slightly improve the defense options to add more value to the destiny as a whole. Although increase the 10d10 to 20d20 and adding +3[W] damage is good too.

I still, however, go against increasing the cooldown.

I think my real problem with the ability is that it's limited by Turn Undead attempts. If this requirement was removed, a 10s or even 15s cooldown set and the damage bumped to say +2[w] and 10D20 Light Damage, it would be worthwhile taking when in the destiny. It's still not going to compete with Momentum Swing for outright DPS as a twist, but could prove useful in builds that revolve around debuffing mobs with weakness to light.

[Ancient]

Although tbh, if that's the only nitpick in my long list of suggestions I'm flattered.

You lost me when you suggested improving the cooldown of divine wrath from 15 seconds to 30 seconds. Your list has problems, not going to respond to your list when it was simpler just to post my own ideas.

[bennyson]

The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work. But this is a good example of how presentation matters, and we could have done better.

There are of course other possible changes which we are happy for players to suggest as part of our re-examination of divine Epic Destinties, but the intent was never to actually grant 10,000 temporary hitpoints for full use (any more than Unyielding Sovereignty is expected to actually heal 10,000 hit points). Again, sorry for the confusion.

I understand that Undying Vanguard was meant to make a character almost unkillable, but still, what good is 10k temp HP for 20s?

For most tank-style characters, this is useless because by level 28 (or 30) they would have 1,000 to 2,000 HP, which already makes them cockroachs along with either their PRR, AC, saves, or DR. Not really worth 2 destiny points at all.

Although Arlathen's "Divine Avenger" epic moment is more interesting :D

[Arlathen]

You lost me when you suggested improving the cooldown of divine wrath from 15 seconds to 30 seconds. Your list has problems, not going to respond to your list when it was simpler just to post my own ideas.*Shrug* With the changes/improvements in micro-management for Blood & Radiance I was suggesting, along with the improved damage / healing formula and availability of use, a cooldown increase was warranted in my opinion. Call it a non-game-designer's attempt at some kind of balance.But hell, everyone has there own idea's and Agenda's at the end of the day. I was just voicing my own.

[Arlathen]

Although Arlathen's "Divine Avenger" epic moment is more interesting :DThanks. It was an attempt to find a worthy Epic Moment ability that could be used in a variety of situations, provide buffs to offense and defense but stand out as different to Unbridled Fury or Master's Blitz.

[Silverleafeon]

I see a ton of good ideas here.
If I spam a thread, its mostly to keep interest in it, cause I like to hear new ideas.

[bennyson]

I've posted this before in the old thread, but am posting it again anyway just in case it was missed.

The new Divine Epic Destiny should grant Divine Casters a new summon, similar to the Dryad Elder in Primal Avatar, but with its own unique way of dealing with enemies, like casting Sunbolt at them and using Cure Critical Wound spells.

Also, I think an Archon would fit well into a "divine" destiny that is based on the Cleric class, right?

[redspecter23]

I've posted this before in the old thread, but am posting it again anyway just in case it was missed.

The new Divine Epic Destiny should grant Divine Casters a new summon, similar to the Dryad Elder in Primal Avatar, but with its own unique way of dealing with enemies, like casting Sunbolt at them and using Cure Critical Wound spells.

Also, I think an Archon would fit well into a "divine" destiny that is based on the Cleric class, right?

Yes to an Archon. It might make a nice tier 1 or 2 twist. No to any other summons until they get their scaling in check for summons in general. They already messed up 1/3rd of the magister tree playing with mostly useless summons. Get the core mechanics of summoning in order, then by all means, give us a pile of new summons. It's a waste of resources right now though.


I understand that Undying Vanguard was meant to make a character almost unkillable, but still, what good is 10k temp HP for 20s?

For most tank-style characters, this is useless because by level 28 (or 30) they would have 1,000 to 2,000 HP, which already makes them cockroachs along with either their PRR, AC, saves, or DR. Not really worth 2 destiny points at all.

Although Arlathen's "Divine Avenger" epic moment is more interesting :D

Unkillable for 20 seconds isn't really a horrible ability. What makes it horrible is the insane charge up time and cooldown. If it were 20 charges with a 1 minute cooldown, it might be borderline overpowered. I guess my point is that there is more than one may to make an ability useful. Any ability, with the right cost, duration and cooldown can be useful. Someone should send this message to the Tempest tree designer. Tweaking these three variables has got to be the easiest way to balance most abilities that are either too weak or too powerful.

I'm all for another attempt at an epic moment for this tree, but as dev resources are tight, tooling with 3 numbers to give us something right now seems the best way to go for the short term. Another epic moment could easily be added later if there is more time for it.

[bennyson]

Unkillable for 20 seconds isn't really a horrible ability.

That is why I said "most" because some people would find this helpful. Unyielding Sentinel, however, still needs a new epic moment that would provide similar defensive bonuses to a character but also give a boost to that character's damage so it can compete with Legendary Dreadnought or Fury of the Wild.

[No_Dice]

All knockbacks or just the ones associated with giants? Because I know this isn't the case with air elementals or djinns.



I'm not sure if it's entirely a syncing issue as to an implementation issue, you do need to block before the would be blockable attacks start, and if you drop the block .25 sec before the attack lands the server knows you aren't blocking (it was something like 2 seconds to start blocking and instant stop blocking).

Whoops! Looks like djinns still ignore blocking. I added it to air elementals with the gianthold update, and you should be able to block knockback from giants, dragons, demons, and most other things I've worked on. Feel free to bug report any monster knockback that you can't block! There are also other effects that blocking can reduce/ignore, usually on attacks that have a telegraph long enough to get your block up. We don't expect you to block things that happen super quickly, but believe blocking can be an interesting mechanic to be peppered in occasionally when we can design special attacks with a readable telegraph or predictable timing.

As for fixing it so that knockback doesn't happen on a miss, I am working on a possible way to make that work! It's tricky, but it's something I really want to fix.

[redspecter23]

Whoops! Looks like djinns still ignore blocking. I added it to air elementals with the gianthold update, and you should be able to block knockback from giants, dragons, demons, and most other things I've worked on. Feel free to bug report any monster knockback that you can't block! There are also other effects that blocking can reduce/ignore, usually on attacks that have a telegraph long enough to get your block up. We don't expect you to block things that happen super quickly, but believe blocking can be an interesting mechanic to be peppered in occasionally when we can design special attacks with a readable telegraph or predictable timing.

As for fixing it so that knockback doesn't happen on a miss, I am working on a possible way to make that work! It's tricky, but it's something I really want to fix.

That would be fantastic. I have horrible nightmares about trying to fight 2 or more giants at once. I'm not sure you can shield block through that onslaught and actually get a swing in. Blocking through knockback is theoretically possible when fighting one giant, but more than one? Was that even a consideration?

On a related note, from a dev standpoint, what goal does knockback accomplish? Players find it annoying, especially with no save and with it occurring even on misses. Why does it exist from your point of view? As mentioned earlier, one giant is annoying but manageable. Multiple giants play pinball with players.

[Grizzt14]

Whoops! Looks like djinns still ignore blocking. I added it to air elementals with the gianthold update, and you should be able to block knockback from giants, dragons, demons, and most other things I've worked on. Feel free to bug report any monster knockback that you can't block! There are also other effects that blocking can reduce/ignore, usually on attacks that have a telegraph long enough to get your block up. We don't expect you to block things that happen super quickly, but believe blocking can be an interesting mechanic to be peppered in occasionally when we can design special attacks with a readable telegraph or predictable timing.

As for fixing it so that knockback doesn't happen on a miss, I am working on a possible way to make that work! It's tricky, but it's something I really want to fix.

Glad to hear the miss knockback is being looked into, it has always bothered me and would make fighting Giants and similar foes less frustrating. Can dodge incorporeal and other "miss" effects will also be included in fix if they aren't already?

[redspecter23]

That is why I said "most" because some people would find this helpful. Unyielding Sentinel, however, still needs a new epic moment that would provide similar defensive bonuses to a character but also give a boost to that character's damage so it can compete with Legendary Dreadnought or Fury of the Wild.

I agree completely. The current offensive benefits of Unyielding Sentinel are far too little. I don't think it quite has to match the all around good dps of Dreadnaught or Fury, but I think it should have better situational damage and should certainly have enough threat enhancers that even if it's doing less dps, it should be able to hold aggro if there is a situation where tanking is important.

I'm still a fan of offering extra damage or crit range and multiplier against intimidated targets for a short duration. It feels like it's in theme, has great synergy with smites and helps establish and maintain aggro after intimidating a boss or group of mobs.

The wiki lists intimidate with a 15 second cooldown, giving +50% threat for 6 seconds after a successful intimidate and +100% for 12 seconds if a shield is equipped. I'd make an enhancement or ability that also adds +1 threat range and multiplier during that duration. It's also a nice push for S&B fighting which needs a boost. Intimidating 10 or more mobs then cleaving through them would be quite fun.

[sephiroth1084]

Whoops! Looks like djinns still ignore blocking. I added it to air elementals with the gianthold update, and you should be able to block knockback from giants, dragons, demons, and most other things I've worked on. Feel free to bug report any monster knockback that you can't block! There are also other effects that blocking can reduce/ignore, usually on attacks that have a telegraph long enough to get your block up. We don't expect you to block things that happen super quickly, but believe blocking can be an interesting mechanic to be peppered in occasionally when we can design special attacks with a readable telegraph or predictable timing.

As for fixing it so that knockback doesn't happen on a miss, I am working on a possible way to make that work! It's tricky, but it's something I really want to fix.
The problem with blocking is that it isn't responsive enough--it can't really cancel actions, and there's a bit of a delay, even with a great connection, between pressing "Block" and the game registering it. Even with clearly telegraphed attacks with a long wind-up it can be difficult to go from attacking or casting or moving to blocking, and actually have the game recognize that you are.

That would be fantastic. I have horrible nightmares about trying to fight 2 or more giants at once. I'm not sure you can shield block through that onslaught and actually get a swing in. Blocking through knockback is theoretically possible when fighting one giant, but more than one? Was that even a consideration?

On a related note, from a dev standpoint, what goal does knockback accomplish? Players find it annoying, especially with no save and with it occurring even on misses. Why does it exist from your point of view? As mentioned earlier, one giant is annoying but manageable. Multiple giants play pinball with players.The D&D system works best on opposed checks; on a sort of rock, paper, scissors ideal where everything has a counter. Knockback should be an opposed Strength check (see Bullrush in the 3.5 PHB). That may not be much better, given how stupidly overinflated epic mob stats are, but it would be something.

[redspecter23]

The D&D system works best on opposed checks; on a sort of rock, paper, scissors ideal where everything has a counter. Knockback should be an opposed Strength check (see Bullrush in the 3.5 PHB). That may not be much better, given how stupidly overinflated epic mob stats are, but it would be something.

Opposed checks are great in theory, but as you mentioned, overinflation kills that. It would basically be auto success in EH and lower and auto fail in EE unless your strength is 80+. It's probably a bit off topic at this point to suggest that this sort of overinflation destroys any balance you could possibly get using a d20 system. It's why player characters get tripped all the time by EE mobs, but only the most dedicated tactician can trip an EE mob.

[bennyson]

Will the changes to Unyielding Sentinel and Exalted Angel be released along with the new Divine destiny?

[xberto]

3. Lots of PRR is a good thing, but even without Unyielding Sentinel and it's bonuses a defensively built toon can still get very close to the 50% mitigation soft cap that PRR provides. This means that a toon already specced in defense gains no more than a few % points worth of PRR gains from anything in sentinel. Any PRR bonuses in the tree don't help a defensive toon enough to justify the cost of not being in a dps tree instead.


5. Explore options that relieve the huge opportunity cost that medium and heavy armor have in that they "turn off" evasion and lower your dodge cap. If you could come up with a comparable buff that requires medium or heavy armor, you'd make it easier to go that route and proxy nerf the massive power that 2 or 6 levels of monk currently provides compared to other options. Make players want to wear heavy armor instead of just throwing on light armor or robes and receiving not only the same defensive benefits (mostly due to diminishing returns) with evasion as the ultimate defensive bonus as well. At this point, even toons specced heavily in the defensive trees are hard pressed not to just splash 2 monk and use lighter armor. They really don't lose much compared to what they gain.

I strongly agree with these points.

And further I think the PRR for Heavier Armors and shields should be increased dramatically, across the board. Significant PRR increases might balance for non-evasion builds.

[Silverleafeon]

I always like practical examples, but that is me.
The more I delve into this build, the more I realize that Exalted Angel is an Evoker/Conjuration Epic Destiny.
DC boost there would be easily part of the theme.


http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/019/4/5/screenshot00118_by_crystal_vaporeon-d72xrpf.jpg

Here is the enhancements and epic destinies took, Divine Wrath is not showing.

Class Split: 1 ~ 15 all cleric, 16 ~ 20 Favored Soul

Feats:
Premium Caster Package: Maximize, Empower, Heighten, Quicken, Empower Healing
Past Life Package: Arcane Initiate, Completionist
Evoker Package: Spell Focus Evocation, Greater Spell Focus Evocation

{Notice this looks just like my druid build...}
{Notice I neglected spell pen, as Fawn has all spell pen past lives, you could give up the 11 points into radiant for spell pen.}


http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/019/7/2/screenshot00119_by_crystal_vaporeon-d72xsis.jpg

Here is my spells and hot bar setup.

Most of my keyboard is hot keyed.
Left is toggles, things to gain spell points, access to character sheet, quest log, etc..
Upper right is buffs, with the more important ones on numbers pad key 1 thru 0.
Lower right is main casting bound to main keyboard leaving normal movement keys alone.

The bottom row: z thru , are my "free to cast spells" and almost all of them are light spells.
Due to the high critical spell % of this build generally you can cast these at will and stay at about the same sp,
due to the temp sp from Angel of Vengence. This is the row I use continually if I want to build up to Divine Wrath.
The normal spells have the metamagics turned off individually as all metamagics are turned on for colors of the queen.
{Buffs bars also have quickened turned off.}

The second row: g thru ; are my "healing spells" most of these are quickened and have various metamagics on them.
The one on the end uses my turn undeads for healing burst.

The third row: y thru \ are my "odd and ends spells" we have renewal (twice cause I want to avoid hitting t is I can),
rebuke foe (not sure why twice probably extra space), harper pin, remove curse, divine wrath on end to find easy.

The fourth row: 1 thru 0 are my "expensive emergency spells" this is the evoker row. These spells are fully metamagiced,
and casting them one right after another on a big group of mobs will do serious damage, killing most everything.
The first one is my sla, its not with the other slas because its not a light spell.



Basic Stats: {bear in mind I have completionist and +5 tomes}

Str 9
Dex 9
Con 13
Int 12 {skills max concentration, heal, and spellcraft, 1 into tumble, rest into balance till hit favored soul then extra into jump}
Wis 18 {all level ups here}
Cha 14


Spells not shown:
Favored Soul took anything that did not depend on cast levels:
Level 1: Cause fear (small auto debuff), Obscuring Mist, Remove Fear, Summon Monster I (gets rid of bigger summons)
Level 2: Close Wounds (quick heal stack builder, never use), Remove Paralysis (gets rid of slow, but not from spell wards)


Twists are
Cocoon (needed)
+3 evocation from Magistar {evoker style}
15% less cooldown from Magistar {optional, but I like as it reduces my sunbolt and sunbeam cooldowns}


You will notice I have Colors of the Queen turned off.
That is because I just came from a Von Raid and Divine Wrath can apply things normally hitting foes to allies.
I had a party member suddenly get -10 to reflex saves in a demonweb boss fight,
can you guess what magistar twist Fawn was using?

Depending on my mood, and what I am doing, I do turn Colors of the Queen on.
Since I was leading the raid, I did not feel like risking killing a party member.


Alternate enhancement/twist version, probably more popular version:

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/019/9/6/screenshot00120_by_crystal_vaporeon-d72xxl2.jpg

Here we give up radiant burst (using turn undeads for Divine Vitality) and gain more light spell power.
Swapped cooldown twist for +2 more evocation DCs.

Light spell power here is 396 (potential +30 and +30 from stacks and +30 spell boost) using a 126 light power, 19% radiant lore caster stick.
Positive spell power is 362 from Gauntlets of Immortality
Off hand is http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Balizarde,_Protector_of_the_King
Trinket Planar Focus of Erudition / Ioun Stone / crafted fire absorb 33% + efficient max II
Armor is Epic Blue Dragonscale with helmet
Hp Greensteel Boots / consider Heyclone boots here
Sp Greensteel Googles
Sage Locket for evocation / Torc / Silver Flame Talisman.
Ring of Shadows EE on off hand with xp bonus augment
Wise +9 ring main hand / Ring of Dijjin EE



So far this is the best light spell build that I have used.
There may be better out there, but I have studied this for a long time, and that is the best I can do so far...
Is it as good as a sorcerer, probably not, but that is to be expected.
This build suffer greatly from not having an archon, but maybe Exalted Angel will change...


Strongly accepted into raids as a healer, and preforms well in that regard.
Slight problem of not having enlarge for longer healing range, but that is optional even with a devoted healer.



Another option is to make the evoker spell on the top row only have quicken and heighten applied to them, halving their cost.
Also one could twist energy burst fire instead of Precise Evocation.
This allows more explosives per shrine.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;;;;;;;;;

I have rebuilt the Cleric Soul {Cleric 15/Favored Soul 5 ~ tier 5 AoV/EA ED} five times now?

It always turns out the same, light spells are evoker spells nowadays.
SLAs benefit from free metamagics.

What order would Fawn take them from level one?
Well...

Completionist is a very nice feat, but it mess up the feat order (insert plug for auto grant here), take it whenever.
Quickened is really needed in Epics and level 18+ so take at level 18.
Maximize is usually taken at level 12 or over, however if you have an Spell Like Ability to freely use it on, you can take much sooner.
Empowered Healing is for Renewal/Cocoon so take this at level 21.
Heighten is not good unless you have enough spell levels to make a difference, take at 15 or over.
Spell Focus Evocation should be taken before entering Epic Levels, so take at 9 or over.
Empowered should not be taken before level 6 as it would not be turned on due to spell costs before then.
Greater Spell Focus can wait, even up to level 24.
Arcane Initiate is nice to have at any level, so fit it in wherever seems good.

For Fawn the choice of Ruin vs Epic Spell Focus Evocation at level 27 could go either way.
What is extremely interesting is that she is some actual good use out of alignment spells.
She can use all of them due to being converted from a Druid as True Neutral,
and except for Unholy Blight she finds targets for them.
Order's Wrath actually makes EE crowd control, but unfortunately the duration is about as long as the cooldown:
6 seconds duration with a 4 second cooldown.

Still she misses Earthquake very much.


Cometfall and healing are Conjuration spells, light spells now have evoker saving throw which aims at the heart of this:
http://ddowiki.com/images/Skill_concentration.png

Precise Casting: Conjuration / Evocation: Passive Bonus: +1 DC to spells of the selected school.
EDP Cost: 1 Ranks: 2 Progression: 4 Requires: Requires feat Spell Focus: Conjuration for conjuration version, or feat Spell Focus: Evocation for evocation version.

from the Draconic Incarnation would actually be perfect copied into Exalted Angel.


Divine Wrath continues to tease.
Having excluded Nimbus of Light and Holy Smite SLAs from the main light spell cycling,
Fawn can finally use Divine Wrath some of the time.
Rarely it kills a player, often the target dies before she can build up a light stack,
sometimes a player needs healing urgently before all is ready, but when it works its very nice.


This build is akin to a Sorcerer, but of course the Sorcerer going to glory in 10k critical spells, while the Cleric Soul
get excited over a 2k+ spell crit.

Having gained all her Divine Sphere Epic Past Lives, its time to move on, perhaps to return someday depending upon
upcoming changes. She needs 3 Primal, 6 Arcane, 2 Martial, and some more Iconic Past Lives.
Perhaps a return to Druid, or perhaps something built just for the Arcane Sphere.
Primal is so easy with Shiradi + whatever. Martial can be returned to when we farm out new ED frontiers.
I pause at Bard+Fatesinger, wondering...Fawn rates Bard at the bottom of the classes due to flaws that need working out.

I guess since Fawngate is one of the few characters that can take Epic Completionist,
she will need to be copied unto the Xoriat Server for testing out Epic Completionist Alpha version.


It has been pointed out to me by someone who is completely done with epic past lives and now working on
Iconic + Heroic past lives that alternating Iconic with Epic to maintain some first time bonuses would be a
smart strategy.

Fawn has just been plain tired of emptying her TR cache and reflagging...sigh, I guess its time for an Iconic Heart next...

[digital_terror1]

That would be fantastic. I have horrible nightmares about trying to fight 2 or more giants at once. I'm not sure you can shield block through that onslaught and actually get a swing in. Blocking through knockback is theoretically possible when fighting one giant, but more than one? Was that even a consideration?

On a related note, from a dev standpoint, what goal does knockback accomplish? Players find it annoying, especially with no save and with it occurring even on misses. Why does it exist from your point of view? As mentioned earlier, one giant is annoying but manageable. Multiple giants play pinball with players.


Beyond adding 'flavor' to the game, I really doubt there is any real goal to knockback. There are a lot of similar effects with varying levels of annoyance to players, such as minotaurs being able to run sideways to knock you down instead of you successfully dodging out of the way, or all the performance lag producing eye candy effects like acid rain, the druid animal form aura when manipulating objects, etc

Personally, I would love to see a lot of the effects that do nothing but annoy players with no real value to having them around get toned down a lot or removed entirely.

[spectroum]

Beyond adding 'flavor' to the game, I really doubt there is any real goal to knockback. There are a lot of similar effects with varying levels of annoyance to players, such as minotaurs being able to run sideways to knock you down instead of you successfully dodging out of the way,


even more annoying when u stun them and still getting KD... :p

[bennyson]

Silver your hot bars look a bit...errr....crazy...

[alancarp]

That is why I said "most" because some people would find this helpful. Unyielding Sentinel, however, still needs a new epic moment that would provide similar defensive bonuses to a character but also give a boost to that character's damage so it can compete with Legendary Dreadnought or Fury of the Wild.

Agreed: because of the new enhancement trees, plus the unsatisfactory Unyielding Sentinel options, my Paladin/20 was re-rolled as 18 Pally/2 Fighter/8 Epic to gain weapon damage add-ons, and I am using Legendary Dreadnaught almost exclusively now. My expectations for this have been realized: the best defense is often having enough offense to kill the enemy quickly.

[Ancient]

This build suffer greatly from not having an archon, but maybe Exalted Angel will change...

It would be amazing if they simply added an archon to the EA destiny. Allow either FVS to have 2, or improve the one they have...

[IronClan]

We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation.

But that's NOT why it was poorly received Varg, it was poorly received because 20 seconds of invulnerability that is a huge Pain to charge up and only usable once in a blue moon is a really lame "Epic moment" on a DPS starved class/build. 20 Seconds to do what exactly? Continue sawing the tree down with a Butter knife? Run around and raise everyone with scrolls is the best thing to use it for and honestly I've never been lucky enough to have it charged when a near wipe happened. Of course I ended up going with a DPS ED like everyone else.

This is one of those disconnect things, the Devs think if they can just explain their intent correctly and get the right message out there players will like things.

The players on the other hand use the moment a couple times, go "meh, I might one day single handedly save a Shroud during the last 20 seconds of a Harry beat down if I am lucky enough to have this charged up, but otherwise who cares... Probably better to put the two points into Str/Con".

A LOT of the other Epic moments suffer this same overly narrow and overly hard to charge up "Meh Moment" thing.

The Angel ED's Divine Wrath is only worth bothering with if you have an Archon (though it is still a huge PITA to target and stuff dies so fast you often lose it and it goes on cooldown). The fix as EVERYONE has said already is giving Archon as a Core 5, and it makes a FvS's existing Archon full powered (full light crit% and spell power instead of half)

The Ascendency moment is just so short and so long to cooldown and so long to charge... I can count the times I've seen someone use EITHER Divine Wrath OR Ascendency in a actual quest on one hand. (I use Divine Wrath all the time but rarely see others) And two of those were during Mabar with endlessly respawning Mobs! Most of the moments feel like a race against time, to see if anything impressive happens; like hoping to get one or two really big light crits and then it's gone... Epic moment? No more of a disappointing moment most of the time. I think you should move most moments (at least new ones) into being toggles that charge up and cool down. while they are toggled on. While you use them instead of turning them on and fizzling out 30 seconds later and having a 2 minute 5 or 10 minute "forget about it all the time so I never use it" cooldown. Have them ramp up in power as you charge up instead of it being an on/off switch, and have a penalty to balance always being on.

Don't get me started on the entire Left side of the Angel tree... Judgment/Judge many etc. I can not be bothered to use these, I played with them just long enough to realize how fiddly and situational they were and reset my points to spend on things that didn't suck. Speaking of underwleming:

A tier 4 active ability that gives a 5% boost to damage against a single target per click. Does Turbine think the average player is an octopus to be clicking that while also doing DPS? 5 clicks that are not DPS, so I can raise light DPS by 25% for 30 seconds, You guys realize that if I miss out on casting ONE spell because I clicked that five times, that I am losing DPS in the deal right? Of course you're going to miss casting a couple damage spells not just one, because there's the global action timer that wont allow you to cast faster than whatever it's set at (feels like 1 second).

Simple fix make it passive, +5% damage for every 5 stacks of ardor/whatchamacallit, 25 stacks = +25% light DPS. Oh and while we're at it: Make all the stuff in Angel ED work for "Light Fire Force and Untyped" this means it's actually a little fun for a Fire Sorc to level, or a Archmage, and my "Dark Angel" idea too, give Divine Disciple Clerics using Negative energy an ED to be in. Also makes a nice alternate ED for a Pale Master. Just make a negative version of each Light/Pos ability and a Dark Wrath AOE.

Okay and last Angel ED ability before I stop ranting:
"Be at peace" 2 minute cool down... One enemy dazed (dazed!)... 2 points cost... Too situational and long cooling down to ever remember to use, so not worth spending points on.

Call it "Bow before Imminence" Make it a Self AOE centered Greater command like effect with appropriate epic destiny style DC, and give it a 30 second cooldown and 20 SP cost (free meta's). Move it to tier 6 this is more fun, useful AND epic feeling than anything currently there; as whats more epic feeling than making enemies bow before you?

[Wipey]

. Move it to tier 6 this is more fun, useful AND epic feeling than anything currently there; as whats more epic feeling than making enemies bow before you?
Make it work on players, and in public areas, please ? :D

Btw, rebuke is one of the better things in EA, it's not just light for YOU, it's + 25 % physical for everybody else.
It can be a pain, you are right, you gotta hotkey it and preferrably keep mob examine thingie open or you easily miss a stack.
Can get pretty piano -ey fast with all the different targetting, thyself, mob, party members and back in split second.

[IronClan]

I always like practical examples, but that is me.
The more I delve into this build, the more I realize that Exalted Angel is an Evoker/Conjuration Epic Destiny.

Very interesting, good stuff Silver, I also have a Light evoker, and have already done much of the same experimenting as you. Like you I've arrived at about 105 light spell power from Enhancements, but I honestly believe that Pure FvS Morninglord despite the loss of about 30 light spellpower will end up the more practical choice with Sunbolt at 18th level costing no SP, and a Archon to charge DW up. I have been able to lay down a DW every 15-16 seconds in target rich quests or raids if I don't need to heal. Ultimately being able to use the funky and often painful DW more often is what makes it my choice. That said I'm still playing around with it. An improved Divine Wrath spell (make it less finicky) and an Archon in the ED cores would open up my build possibilities tremendously, and DW is far and away the biggest light base damage available.

Have you considered 15 Druid 3 Cleric 2 FvS? I have a Pyromancer version of this concept (fire and light) that is 15 Druid 4 FvS 1 Sorc (or 5 FvS). Two Sunburst SLA's (Druid core 12 and Morninglord) to rocker back and forth between, Fire elemental form, Body of the sun, Firewall, Produce flame (a great little SLA I have a thing for SLA's that home in on their target) Sunbeam, and Earthquake. Best part is no one expects you to heal, so guilt free DPS. Seasonal thing is annoying until you get used to it.

[bennyson]

the more I realize that Exalted Angel is an Evoker/Conjuration Epic Destiny.

Exactly what I said in the old thread, make Exalted Angel the "divine" twin of Draconic Incarnation.

[bennyson]

the best defense is often having enough offense to kill the enemy quickly.

While this is true, sometimes the offense isn't enough to kill enemies, specially raid bosses like the The Trueful One (500k HP anyone?) so in this case the best offense is a good defense and Unyielding Sentinel needs to be balanced between the two, as the current destiny is focused too much on defense and not enough offense.

[Spoonwelder]

For US - fewer comments here as I never stayed in it long

Nothing dies when you are shield blocking....maybe they die from boredom but so do your players....so start there please - nothing tied to active blocking it just isn't useful. Fine if it requires a shield to be equipped but thats about as far as I would go.

The moment should be about vanquishing a foe - not being able to be punched in the head for another 5 minutes without dying. Make it half about resiliency and half about ramping up your damage ....at a minimum off the scale retributive damage (ie. not Xd10 but X% of incoming damage goes back maybe a 100/300/500% tier up) - that would still require you to have aggro but at least with some teamwork you could use it to some overall positive affect.


For EA - after ETRing my FVS I am stuck in EA for another 4M xp so I have gotten to know this one fairly well - luckily I am on a FVS melee (2F 3Rog)splash and have archon......but.....its still very weak - I look longingly at LD and count the days til I get out of this destiny - notes below starting at top of tree and working down.


The big epic moment sucks....you have to die to get full effect. The full effect is pretty good but to die to get it is plain dumb. Basically I charge it - and say wheeeee I can die now then ignore it and try hard not to die like I always would. I don't mind the free res part of it but to have the damage boost really only come after you die just kills this moment.
Divine Wrath is okay but either casting time has to be reduced (or at least allow quicken to apply) OR you need to let it fire off even if the mob dies - so at least we can get the heal out of it.
Strike Down - is a melee action BUT you have to be healing the snot out of everyone around you for it to fire - good for radiant servants horrid for Pallys/FVS - especially since the counter times down - at least let me charge it like blitz/EIN so that once it is up it is ready to use until you use it - its not like it is OP in the first place.
Be At Peace - 2AP is too much especially with a 2min cooldown.
Rebuke foe - anything that has me tracking my buff bar as to when I can use something is broken and frustrating when it pauses my action when I try to use it when not 'charged' at a minimum the hotbar icon should fade out when not useable and don't pause my action to tell me I can't use it if I happen to hit the button off cycle
Judge - meh anything that is monster type specific is meh.
Excorciate - see strike down - my hope is that in a quest I am not firing off a heal every 15 seconds.
Blood and radiance - first see Excorciate and Strike Down then see my comments about whatching my buff bar....make it work some other way.
Lay to Rest - Smite the Wicked - mob type specific see above
Renewal - I don't use - too many other healing options and so many people have self heals - yes it is a nice SP efficient heal but with AP in short supply I don't use it - others seem to like it though.
Purity of essence - Heal Amp good on people who can't heal themselves - but for a class designed for the tree I can heal the snot out of myself (cleric, FVS, Pally) so a bit more heal amp isn't too important to me - but it is helpful so no real complaint.
Judgement - see above about mob type specific damage
Embrace the light - not enough light damage in the game to make it worth while - maybe for a PM for the 2-3 days they will be in this ED farming twist points
All of Tier 1 is good.
Innates

Ascendance is good - only in that you get no SP drain from Vibrance - the SP regen is nice and the extra damage is pretty good.
Blessed blades - if you are good it is good if not it rarely makes a difference...so just make it good.
Leap - who doesn't like to jump around....love it on my deeper splashed FVS
Astral Vibrance - the damage is situational and not so great that it needs an SP drain - other than that it is fine.
Angelic presence - not bad but not really all that good either

[bennyson]

One more thing, devs, some parts of Unyielding Sentinel needs to be looked at.

Endless Smiting is okay since it gives +3 extra smite uses + a 30% decrease in the regeneration time
(I did the math and 30% of 90s or 1m30s is 27s, which leaves Smite Evil regenerating almost every minute)

Can you PLEASE put this lower than a minute and make it give way more extra smites than just 3? Smite Evil is the bread and butter of pally DPS vs. ALL evil enemies, and their starving from the lack of smite usages.

Endless Turning is almost useful since its +3 extra turns and regenerates every 2 minutes at least.
(I also did the math with this one, and it puts it very close to the regeneration time of vanilla Smite Evil if its only 20%)

Can you also INCREASE the number of turn usages with this one so that it maybe worthwhile taking?

Confront Any Foe isn't all that great unless your smacking an enemy with a weakness to light like vampires or a debuffed enemy
Not only that, this things eats TWO turn undead attempts instead of one, reason be is that IT HAS NO COOLDOWN and does nothing when the second turn attempted been used. Please add a 3s cooldown at least so that turns last somewhat longer.

[bennyson]

should certainly have enough threat enhancers that even if it's doing less dps, it should be able to hold aggro if there is a situation where tanking is important.

Better threat enhancers would be nice because if the new quests require tanks (I hope) All those furyshooters will be killing their parties because their pulling aggro from the tanks, then the entire build will then be hated because its pulling too much hate, I had this problem with a furyshooter while doing the quest Battle for Eveningstar on Epic Elite, the guy was pulling the boss away from me while I had ALL my threat generators on! Man that was annoying.

[Silverleafeon]

Silver your hot bars look a bit...errr....crazy...
Indeed, they are, woot!

It would be amazing if they simply added an archon to the EA destiny. Allow either FVS to have 2, or improve the one they have...
Nods solemnly and tries to look wise...

Very interesting, good stuff Silver, I also have a Light evoker, and have already done much of the same experimenting as you. Like you I've arrived at about 105 light spell power from Enhancements, but I honestly believe that Pure FvS Morninglord despite the loss of about 30 light spellpower will end up the more practical choice with Sunbolt at 18th level costing no SP, and a Archon to charge DW up. I have been able to lay down a DW every 15-16 seconds in target rich quests or raids if I don't need to heal. Ultimately being able to use the funky and often painful DW more often is what makes it my choice. That said I'm still playing around with it. An improved Divine Wrath spell (make it less finicky) and an Archon in the ED cores would open up my build possibilities tremendously, and DW is far and away the biggest light base damage available.

Have you considered 15 Druid 3 Cleric 2 FvS? I have a Pyromancer version of this concept (fire and light) that is 15 Druid 4 FvS 1 Sorc (or 5 FvS). Two Sunburst SLA's (Druid core 12 and Morninglord) to rocker back and forth between, Fire elemental form, Body of the sun, Firewall, Produce flame (a great little SLA I have a thing for SLA's that home in on their target) Sunbeam, and Earthquake. Best part is no one expects you to heal, so guilt free DPS. Seasonal thing is annoying until you get used to it.Pure Sunbolt SLA Favored Soul is my second choice and its very debatable in my mind which is the best.

Thanks for the tip on Druid!

Exactly what I said in the old thread, make Exalted Angel the "divine" twin of Draconic Incarnation.
Nods sagely with a hint of peppermint....

Better threat enhancers would be nice because if the new quests require tanks (I hope) All those furyshooters will be killing their parties because their pulling aggro from the tanks, then the entire build will then be hated because its pulling too much hate, I had this problem with a furyshooter while doing the quest Battle for Eveningstar on Epic Elite, the guy was pulling the boss away from me while I had ALL my threat generators on! Man that was annoying.
A long, long time ago, an old school player told me,
"Dps is more important an AC for a tank, the quicker the raid gets done, the easier it is on the healers,
a tank that cannot hold agro is useless..."

It took Fawn and I a long time to fully understand what he was saying.

[Silverleafeon]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm

http://th09.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2014/027/0/f/screenshot00145_by_crystal_vaporeon-d73ybot.jpg

http://th04.deviantart.net/fs70/PRE/f/2014/027/e/b/screenshot00146_by_crystal_vaporeon-d73yc71.jpg

The snow queen returns, and at least for a long time, this is Fawn's final build...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk



Notice the lack of monk splash...lol Fawn would giggle if someone told her she needed evasion for EE...
She understands Magistar well enough...its power and protection
and all the wasted space, space that could have contained anything, anything at all...


Are Sigils and Pets and blank space any worse than warpriest stuff?
I wonder?

[bennyson]

Hey, if Earthquake is a level 8th spell for Clerics, why wasn't added to their spellbook upon release of the Druid class?

Turbine...

[Silverleafeon]

Arcane Sphere:

4, 3, and 3 holes respectively:

http://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Draconic.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Fatesinger.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Magister.png


Divine Sphere:

6 and 5 holes respectively and missing an epic destiny and considered less powerful than any other sphere

http://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Exalted.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Unyielding.png


Martial Sphere:

5, 4, and 4 holes respectively

http://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Grandmaster.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Legendary.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_ShadowDancer.png


Primal Sphere:

6, 4, 4 holes respectively

http://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Fury.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Primal_Avatar.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Shiradi.png

[bennyson]

Arcane Sphere:

4, 3, and 3 holes respectively:

http://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Draconic.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Fatesinger.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Magister.png


Divine Sphere:

6 and 5 holes respectively and missing an epic destiny and considered less powerful than any other sphere

http://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Exalted.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Unyielding.png


Martial Sphere:

5, 4, and 4 holes respectively

http://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Grandmaster.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Legendary.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_ShadowDancer.png


Primal Sphere:

6, 4, 4 holes respectively

http://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Fury.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Primal_Avatar.pnghttp://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Shiradi.png

Silver, what are you getting at by posting the destiny trees? Is it because those holes could be "filled" with something?
Although your 100% right about the Divine Sphere being less powerful than the others.

[Silverleafeon]

Silver, what are you getting at by posting the destiny trees? Is it because those holes could be "filled" with something?
Although your 100% right about the Divine Sphere being less powerful than the others.

Which sphere has the least amount of holes in it?
Which sphere comes out on top no matter which enhancement pass, update, change occurs inside the game?
Which sphere has from day one been considered the most powerful in D&D first edition?


Which sphere continues to suffer neglect in DDO?
Which sphere do the Devs seriously need to sit down and discuss their subconscious attitude towards?
Which sphere do the players have to constantly press the Devs to improve?


Epic Destiny level 10 is coming, sure as shooting, let us fill these holes when it does with quality additions.
Don't rush thing that might not be changed lately.
Be proud of what you have done, know you can pull it off.
Be brilliant, be smart, be bold.

[Drwaz99]

Which sphere has the least amount of holes in it?
Which sphere comes out on top no matter which enhancement pass, update, change occurs inside the game?
Which sphere has from day one been considered the most powerful in D&D first edition?


Which sphere continues to suffer neglect in DDO?
Which sphere do the Devs seriously need to sit down and discuss their subconscious attitude towards?
Which sphere do the players have to constantly press the Devs to improve?


Epic Destiny level 10 is coming, sure as shooting, let us fill these holes when it does with quality additions.
Don't rush thing that might not be changed lately.
Be proud of what you have done, know you can pull it off.
Be brilliant, be smart, be bold.

Don't you think this would be better served in a new thread instead of polluting the Divine Destiny one with general comments about all of them? Or is this a case of you hoping to get better visibility of it, even if completely off topic, since a Developer created this thread?

[Silverleafeon]

Unfortunately, if we only talk about the divine sphere without looking at the rest,
we have no perspective on the subject.

If Magistar was terrible and offered no DC advantage, then what would be the point
of protesting that Exalted Angel has no DC or Spell Pen boosts?

What would be the point of worrying about how terrible the dps of unyielding sentinel if
legendary dreadnought was just as bad?

[Silverleafeon]

But you are right, maybe more people would look at this thread and post interesting ideas if I let Furret run loose...

http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/33200000/My-Little-Pony-Friendship-is-Magic-my-little-pony-friendship-is-magic-33207334-1097-620.png


Thanks everyone for all the posts, some great ideas here!!
Appreciate it, cause I like playing divines...

[bennyson]

Hey, Devs, maybe you could add a couple new abilities to Unyielding Sentinel that upgrades the Smite Evil and Exalted Smite to do x2 times the damage?

Also, how about another ability that upgrades the current Divine Might? If your not going to recode the current Divine Might at LEAST add a new ability in Unyielding Sentinel that "improves" it, allowing characters with a Divine Might buff to do further damage.

Also, please put these in a "reasonable" tier in the range of Twists of Fate.

[Angelic-council]

Thank you so much for the update!!

[Angelic-council]

I hope this new epic destiny going to be good and I hope you guys don't mess up with exalted angel.

Exalted angel should be just like draconic destiny. Lets look at just what draconic offers. DC boost, spell penetration, defensive abilities and offensive casting. Now, Exalted Angel.. Why not give this destiny a DC boost, spell pen and max caster level when casting fire, light, force spells. You know, many people play casters. What is wrong with all that hybrid divines. Why divines can cast offensive spells anyways, all of their offensive spells have limit of level 5, 10 and 15 max caster level.

Perhaps, you guys add that to new divine destiny.

I just.. Don't think people would be happy with another divine hybrid.. Ahh..

[Angelic-council]

It sounds like...

1) They wanted to do a melee tree, so they're still going to
2) They don't want bother fixing under-powered existing EDs, so they're not going to
3) We complained about under-powered existing EDs, so they're going to make some token changes to shut us up
4) We said we wanted DCs, so they're going to randomly throw a token DC boost into the melee tree to shut us up
5) We said that a caster tree was more needed than yet another melee tree, so they decided to call the new melee tree a "hybrid" to shut us up

Am I wrong?

Is the main issue development time? If so, my suggestion:

1) Don't waste anyone's time with an unattractive mishmish ED
2) Table the new ED entirely for now, until you actually have the resources to do it right
3) Spend the resources you were going to use developing a new ED for fixing the existing EDs

And, as was said in the other thread, there's already several good melee EDs out there, but no good divine caster ED out there at all.

Yup, you got it 100% right there!! I'm kinda tired now. I already said this to turbine, they have to separate divine destinies. Make a destiny clear.. Just like magister and Draconic.. DC vs DPS. "Melee and caster" in divine case... Turbine didn't listen. They made Exalted angel hybrid. They going to make new destiny another hybrid.. It's not about we want DC boost so, just randomly add it to new upcoming destiny. We want an actual destiny where we can feel comfort and stay there, for benefit.. Who would leave Shiradi or Fury for example... Another good question would be who is currently using exalted / undying for their main destiny.. But, it's all too late now. We just have to wait until they finish with warpriest like destiny tree. I wish turbine best of good luck.

[bennyson]

See? Like I said in the old thread like EVERYBODY else who was SAYING Turbine, tweak and rework Exalted Angel into the "divine" twin of Draconic Incarnation.

Give it more SLAs

Give it a minor DC boost, similar to what Draconic offers

Give it an extra boost to Fire, Force, and Light spellpower (this puts it more aline to Angel of Vengeance, which you could add more for SLAs too than just those capstones!)

Give it a bonus to spell pen

Then

Transform Unyielding Sentinel into the Offensive Divine Melee Destiny (think of the gods Helm and Dol Darn in Eberron and Forgotten Realms lore, they are Divines that fight their enemies up close and personal with weapons and devastating melee attacks!)

Make the new Divine destiny a heavy DC booster, similar to Magister, to help out those Divine Casters with their spell DCs! (think of Mystra, she is the GODDESS of MAGIC.)

If a Divine Melee needs a destiny that can sharpen their attacks, they can use Unyielding Sentinel

If a Divine Caster needs a destiny that can boost their offensive spells or increase their DCs, they can use either Exalted Angel or the new Divine destiny (by the way, what the heck is the name of this new destiny?)

[Silverleafeon]

Will try to get screenshots and a copy of the abilities when I can and post them in this thread.

[bennyson]

Will try to get screenshots and a copy of the abilities when I can and post them in this thread.

Oh? Didn't you just post a massive off-topic thing about the destines?

[Silverleafeon]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/435476-The-Official-Divine-Crusader-Epic-Destiny-Thread?p=5241343&viewfull=1#post5241343
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/435476-The-Official-Divine-Crusader-Epic-Destiny-Thread?p=5241344&viewfull=1#post5241344

Screenshots of every ability are linked where posted on the new thread

[Shincula]

I don't know, personally I love Unyielding Sentinel and it's shield-blocking goodness.

Mind you, it only works for my very specific cleric build where I boost PRR and DR then shield block in the middle of combat, alternating bursts and mass heals while letting the aura tick. It's a rather brilliant dedicated healer ED in my opinion, though it was obviously intended for sword and board paladin tanks.

Mind you, it's not really relevant at end-game anymore, since dedicated healing seems to be a thing of the past; raids are rarely run, and EE builds tend to either be self sufficient or so squishy that healing them is a moot point. That seems more like an end-game raiding issue, though; when and if playing a healbot becomes a realistic method of support again, US is a pretty great destiny to make it happen. I really loved it for the first little while of its release.