Need feedback on my bardcrobat

[giftie]

I have a retired Human 12 Bard/2 Rogue sitting on 2 raiders boxes and a couple of hearts, and it seems a shame to let them go to waste. Since she's locked to alignment and 2 classes, so I can't LR into something fun. But I've always been dying to try a Thief Acrobat, and it got me thinking - what if I dropped the TWF idea and went staff instead?

I planned out a 18 Bard/2 Rogue split for Victory Song and tier 2 Acrobat enhancements (notably Haste boost and Quick Strike). Then I decided Victory Song is kinda meh, and dropped 2 Bard levels for 2 Cleric (Divine Might, cheap Scroll Mastery, and Smites).

Then I actually looked at the top tier of Warchanter, and realized both it and level 6 spells are are kinda meh too. Whereas Acrobat tier 5 is amazing. So I planned a 15 Bard/5 Rogue. I'm sure that has been done before, but I couldn't find it when searching.

So I rolled this up in the planner:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03

Level 20 True Neutral Human Female
(5 Rogue \ 15 Bard)
Hit Points: 265
Spell Points: 400
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 16
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 28
Dexterity 14 16
Constitution 16 18
Intelligence 14 16
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 8 10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 28
Concentration 5 27
Disable Device 6 25
Heal 1 9
Open Lock 6 24
Perform n/a 23
Search 6 26
Spot 3 20
Tumble 6 10
Use Magic Device 3 23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack


Level 2 (Bard)


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 4 (Bard)


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)


Level 14 (Bard)


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Bard)


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Human Adaptability: Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Control (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Thief Acrobatics (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Quick Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Quick Strike (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Quick Strike (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Sweeping Strikes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Lunge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Staff Specialization (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Thief-Acrobat (Rog) - Vault (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Spellsinger (Brd) - Spellsinger (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Spellsinger (Brd) - Magical Studies (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Spellsinger (Brd) - Magical Studies (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Spellsinger (Brd) - Magical Studies (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Spellsinger (Brd) - Lingering Songs (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Spellsinger (Brd) - Lingering Songs (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Spellsinger (Brd) - Lingering Songs (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Spellsinger (Brd) - Wand Heightening (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Spellsinger (Brd) - Wand Heightening (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Spellsinger (Brd) - Wand Heightening (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Spellsinger (Brd) - Wand and Scroll Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Spellsinger (Brd) - Wand and Scroll Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Spellsinger (Brd) - Wand and Scroll Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Skaldic Rage (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Fighting Spirit (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Song of Heroism (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Fighting Spirit (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspired Bravery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspired Bravery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Inspired Bravery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - The Poetic Edda (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - The Poetic Edda (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - The Poetic Edda (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Enchant Weapon (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Rough and Ready (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Boast (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Boast (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Boast (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Ironskin Chant (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - High Spirits (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - High Spirits (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - High Spirits (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warchanter (Brd) - Strength (Rank 1)



Obviously, healing will be sub-par and non-song CC non-existent, but it should have adequate buffing and bring decent melee damage. Levelling and feat order vary according to taste. This is a purely theory-crafted build - any ideas on how to improve it?

[Ailaesaedol]

I think you might have an easier time going DEX based as opposed to STR, as your sweeping strikes DC will only be 15 at cap before you add any item enhancements (DC = 10 + half rog lvl + DEX mod). Or did you get it to help progress through the tree?

You could probably spare some AP by not bothering with the third rank of scroll mastery. Iron skin chant is also pretty weak, I'd dump it. Sprint boost is often overlooked but I dont leave home without it if its an option.

Otherwise it seems like a solid build, but you might want to try and find room for either maximise or quicken (preferably both) by epic levels. I doubt you'd see any great benefits to extend at 18 to warrant it over either of max or quicken, but thats my personal taste.

[giftie]

So I went ahead and made this build, and so far (level 18) I love it. I front-loaded the rogue levels a bit (once every 3 levels instead of every 4) for faster access to rogue T5 and damage is really quite respectable. I love Vault, too. In hindsight, I would probably have put full points in Tumble and/or Jump instead of half points in Heal for flavor reasons.

Since level 8 I haven't been using anything but 2 Theurgic Staves (one ML 8 "raw", one ML16 slotted with good and silver for devils) and a Staff of Fleshshaping for out-of-combat heals. Tried Rahl's Might, but damage output was actually worse - and it's wood (RM base damage 10.5, crit profile 17-20 x 4 vs base damage 11.5, crit profile 15-20 x 3 for TS).

I've encountered a few raised eyebrows about my low UMD and limited-to-buffs-only SP pool, but the community at large seems familiar with the concept of CHA-dumped battle bards. I desperately need a GS +SP and +CHA skills item though, and second life should be a lot easier.

I do actually kind of miss Otto's, but I really don't see myself ever having enough SPs to use it frequently anyway.

[giftie]

I think you might have an easier time going DEX based as opposed to STR, as your sweeping strikes DC will only be 15 at cap before you add any item enhancements (DC = 10 + half rog lvl + DEX mod). Or did you get it to help progress through the tree?

You could probably spare some AP by not bothering with the third rank of scroll mastery. Iron skin chant is also pretty weak, I'd dump it. Sprint boost is often overlooked but I dont leave home without it if its an option.

Otherwise it seems like a solid build, but you might want to try and find room for either maximise or quicken (preferably both) by epic levels. I doubt you'd see any great benefits to extend at 18 to warrant it over either of max or quicken, but thats my personal taste.

Thanks for your reply!

DEX-based means no OC and no benefit from Rage spell and Skaldic Rage. Sweeping Strikes works off of half Rogue levels (2, rounded down, in my case), so I imagined it would be useless at higher levels, DEX-based or not. I would only use it in LD as a filler to reset swings. In short, yes, only took it to get to Vault. (Staff Lunge has a terribly slow animation, and I removed it from my rotation pretty quickly.)

I consider W&S M III crucial. At higher levels my healing will be entirely scroll-based. IC III is still useful during heroics, but you're right - I could and probably should drop this in Epics, but I can't remember if I needed the points for T4 abilities or not. Human Skill bost and Enthrall comes to mind. Sprint Boost... well, I have Haste from Rogue, and as long as these share pool I'd never replace my best burst ability with a convenience ability.

EDIT: I do need to spend 20 AP in T1-T3 to get Hgh Spirits III, but the points from IC III could be spent in either Sprint Boost (though I doubt I'd use it personally), or max out Rough and Ready and last point to Obstinance I. (Although I'm not sure it makes sense to get 4 more PRR instead of a flat 6/-. =)

I plan to run in LD (but I'm guessing Pulverizer still doesn't work with Sireth?) rather than FS, which means my caster level will forever be 15. I'd rather be able to buff at a decent level, than supply maximized Cure Crits. I can certainly see the merits of Maximize + Quicken, but personally I don't plan to use spell-based healing all that much.

[Hjarki]

1. Cleave/Great Cleave. OC is a solid feat. But Cleave/Great Cleave are likely to be wasted feats for a staff user since they subtract significant amounts of damage on the primary target. Unless you've got really, really good defenses (which you almost certainly don't), you can't stand in the middle of the kind of crowds it would require to make these feats useful. So you're really only taking them to qualify for OC - and a three feat investment for OC is a bit overpriced.

2. Warchanter. I'd drop Inspired Bravery (you can hit anyway and you're immune to fear), Boast (meaningless temporary hit points, takes too long to use in combat) and Ironskin Chant (DR isn't important past a certain point and this is such a trivial amount).

Instead, dump your points into the following abilities: Skaldic Fury, Fighting Spirit, Song of Heroism, Poetic Edda, Enchant Weapon, Rough and Ready, Obstinance, Frozen Fury, Strength, High Spirits. That's the 'good stuff' list. Or, at least, the 'not complete junk' list.

Note that there is a considerable dropoff if you're trying to hit 20 enhancement. Obstinance isn't horrible, but it's not something you brag about either. Frozen Fury is effectively "+1.5 [w] damage attack: on vorpal, you deal +50% damage for several seconds" - again, not awe-inspiring, but a lot better than the alternatives.

However, I'd put some serious thought into whether you want to commit that deeply to Warchanter. The main benefit of going to 20 AP in Warchanter is the second rank of Fighting Spirit (which isn't all that great if you're not planning to go all the way as a 'buff Bard').

3. Spellsinger. Pretty much every Bard should have at least 1 rank in Haunting Melody and 3 in Sharp Note. Being able to toss out a +3 damage buff to yourself and all allies while debuffing enemies - and, incidentally, maybe even mesmerizing some of them - is just too nice to pass up. If you're willing to cut back on the Warchanter a bit you can also reach Sustaining Song which solves most of your 'scroll healing' problems (even though it only solves your problems rather than the group's as it should).

4. Skills. Heal is a waste of points for your build. Spot is a waste of points for almost any build - you're not going to be running around wearing the +20 Spot item you'd need to spot the traps anyway, so you might as well just memorize their locations like every other trapper does.

Given you have 15 levels of Bard, Bluff is probably a very good investment - it actually comes up a fair amount and when you're in a group and someone asks "ok - who has Bluff?" all eyes tend to turn towards the Bard. Bluff is also tremendously useful when you don't want to fight the whole room at once.

Move Silently is also a decent investment. You can 'Hide' with invisibility, but they'll still hear you coming if you don't have Move Silently.

[giftie]

1. Cleave/Great Cleave. OC is a solid feat. But Cleave/Great Cleave are likely to be wasted feats for a staff user since they subtract significant amounts of damage on the primary target. Unless you've got really, really good defenses (which you almost certainly don't), you can't stand in the middle of the kind of crowds it would require to make these feats useful. So you're really only taking them to qualify for OC - and a three feat investment for OC is a bit overpriced.

2. Warchanter. I'd drop Inspired Bravery (you can hit anyway and you're immune to fear), Boast (meaningless temporary hit points, takes too long to use in combat) and Ironskin Chant (DR isn't important past a certain point and this is such a trivial amount).

Instead, dump your points into the following abilities: Skaldic Fury, Fighting Spirit, Song of Heroism, Poetic Edda, Enchant Weapon, Rough and Ready, Obstinance, Frozen Fury, Strength, High Spirits. That's the 'good stuff' list. Or, at least, the 'not complete junk' list.

Note that there is a considerable dropoff if you're trying to hit 20 enhancement. Obstinance isn't horrible, but it's not something you brag about either. Frozen Fury is effectively "+1.5 [w] damage attack: on vorpal, you deal +50% damage for several seconds" - again, not awe-inspiring, but a lot better than the alternatives.

However, I'd put some serious thought into whether you want to commit that deeply to Warchanter. The main benefit of going to 20 AP in Warchanter is the second rank of Fighting Spirit (which isn't all that great if you're not planning to go all the way as a 'buff Bard').

3. Spellsinger. Pretty much every Bard should have at least 1 rank in Haunting Melody and 3 in Sharp Note. Being able to toss out a +3 damage buff to yourself and all allies while debuffing enemies - and, incidentally, maybe even mesmerizing some of them - is just too nice to pass up. If you're willing to cut back on the Warchanter a bit you can also reach Sustaining Song which solves most of your 'scroll healing' problems (even though it only solves your problems rather than the group's as it should).

4. Skills. Heal is a waste of points for your build. Spot is a waste of points for almost any build - you're not going to be running around wearing the +20 Spot item you'd need to spot the traps anyway, so you might as well just memorize their locations like every other trapper does.

Given you have 15 levels of Bard, Bluff is probably a very good investment - it actually comes up a fair amount and when you're in a group and someone asks "ok - who has Bluff?" all eyes tend to turn towards the Bard. Bluff is also tremendously useful when you don't want to fight the whole room at once.

Move Silently is also a decent investment. You can 'Hide' with invisibility, but they'll still hear you coming if you don't have Move Silently.

1) But I'll admit I know next to nothing about how staves work with cleaves and glancing blows - I keep seeing references to a different mechanic here. Given that cleave animation is pretty fast with staves, could you elaborate on the decreased single-target DPS? I need to reset Momentum Swings, and all.

Depending on how high Dodge I can reach, I should be sitting on a 65% miss chance (Displacement, Ghostly and maybe 15% Dodge) against mobs without True Seeing, which I imagined would be enough mitigation to stay frontline in EH.

2) Your Warchanter enhancements look very solid. The main selling point of 20 AP in WC for me was actually the no fatigue after Skaldic Rage. Even so, I'll probably follow your suggestion.

3) So, basically, you advocate using Fascinate as a buff/debuff with some CC rather than deliberate CC with some debuffs on top? I hadn't really considered this.

Does these enhancements which effect Fascinate also work with Enthrall? Because it seems to me that Enthrallment (which gives penalty to saves and attack) would be more valuable than a stronger Fascinate.

Isn't Sustaining Song still terrible? I'm not sure I followed your comment on Scroll Healing - I consider it to be for the benefit of the group. I can certainly do spell-based self-healing, but if I expect to heal others I'd have to rely on scrolls. Unlike my pure 20 SS, who solo healed elite Shroud (not sure that's really a benchmark of anything anymore, but still) using only blue bar.

4) You're right. As mentioned above, I regret the points in Heal already. Although I'd personally shuffle them into Jump and Tumble (this is an Acrobat, after all ;) Hide and Bluff (or maybe Diplo) would arguably be better. Still on the fence about Spot -might LR out of it, might keep it. It helps with content I'm not completely familiar with, and is suitable for this first-lifer.

Very good advice all in all, thank you!

[spectroum]

U might want to consider pumping up your Heal skill to use Cocoon effectively as ur healing source. Grab quicken at 21 too or in the sake of Extend and with a 20% human hamp+10% ship hamp+30% from PDK gloves your Cocoon will be healing you quite well. Also keep in mind that every point spent in Spellsinger provide 1 Universal Spell Power and Each core 2% crit chance on healing spells. So with that and healing scrolls to support it you should be self sufficient enough to run most content at high diffs. Plus this solves ur sp problem since Cocoon costs 12sp. ;)

Your build seem interesting btw

[giftie]

U might want to consider pumping up your Heal skill to use Cocoon effectively as us healing source.

Hm. You know, I hadn't given much thought to twisting Cocoon on any build with access to at least CSW. I was thinking more along the lines of Endless Faith, Unearthly Reactions, and then possibly Primal Scream (fits the sound/buffage theme of warchanters, but often wasted since it's such a common twist), Brace for Impact or Tunnel Vision.

But now that you mention it, I suppose there is merit to Cocoon on any build. Level 21 epic feat will doubtlessly be Inspire Heroics, for 24 probably OC, but there's really nothing else for the 27 slot that catches my eye, so Quicken is definitely a possibility.

Or I just might end up dropping either C/GC or the THF line and squeeze the metamagics.

[Hjarki]

1) But I'll admit I know next to nothing about how staves work with cleaves and glancing blows - I keep seeing references to a different mechanic here. Given that cleave animation is pretty fast with staves, could you elaborate on the decreased single-target DPS? I need to reset Momentum Swings, and all.

You lose the glancing blows when you Cleave/Great Cleave with a quarterstaff. So you'll probably drop about 30% of your damage on the primary target when you use such abilities.


Depending on how high Dodge I can reach, I should be sitting on a 65% miss chance (Displacement, Ghostly and maybe 15% Dodge) against mobs without True Seeing, which I imagined would be enough mitigation to stay frontline in EH.

Frontline? Sure. In the middle of a huge crowd? Probably not. No matter how often enemies miss you, you'll eventually get hit - and you'll get hit hard when it happens. If you're only worried about 1 attack every 6 secs getting through, the fact that you lose half your health bar when it does isn't a big deal. But when you're facing half a dozen attacks every second, it doesn't take long for an unlucky streak where you go splat.


3) So, basically, you advocate using Fascinate as a buff/debuff with some CC rather than deliberate CC with some debuffs on top? I hadn't really considered this.

Consider that your Inspire Courage only adds +3 over what they already have (+2 from Good Hope). Being able to stack another +3 on top of that from Fascinate (albeit only for 30 secs) is pretty useful.

Think of one of those rooms where they have various melee, ranged and casters. Your group charges in. Now, you're terrible at CC (8 Charisma). But there are two dozen enemies ranged across the room. Some of them are bound to fail their saves, and you'll end up subtracting a number of ranged attackers/healers/casters from the fight (Frank the Barbarian's Supreme Cleave will be negating your Fascinate on the melee as we speak). If you absolutely, positively needed to neutralize those enemies Fascinate wouldn't do it. But as a nice bonus to the fact that you just granted your group +3 to damage? I'll take that.


Does these enhancements which effect Fascinate also work with Enthrall? Because it seems to me that Enthrallment (which gives penalty to saves and attack) would be more valuable than a stronger Fascinate.

Correct, they do not work with Enthrall. And, yes, you'd use Enthrall if you were seriously trying to CC. But you don't have the Charisma to 'seriously CC' so no one will be depending on you to do so. You're just hoping to get lucky.


Isn't Sustaining Song still terrible?

It should be group-wide, but is currently single target. And it's not 'terrible', just relatively slow. It's not going to save your life, but it will save you from having to use scrolls to top yourself off after a fight.


I'm not sure I followed your comment on Scroll Healing - I consider it to be for the benefit of the group. I can certainly do spell-based self-healing, but if I expect to heal others I'd have to rely on scrolls. Unlike my pure 20 SS, who solo healed elite Shroud (not sure that's really a benchmark of anything anymore, but still) using only blue bar.

I rarely see anyone actually 'heal'. Players are expected to be self-sufficient, so any healing abilities you take are primarily for your own use. If your Warpriest who was busy casting Blade Barriers happens to have spare SP, they might top you off - but they're probably not going to worry about saving your hide mid-battle. So while other players might expect you to bring Raise Dead scrolls for emergencies, scroll Heal'ing other players really isn't a something people expect.

[giftie]

You lose the glancing blows when you Cleave/Great Cleave with a quarterstaff. So you'll probably drop about 30% of your damage on the primary target when you use such abilities.

Bleh. In other words, only use against trash, and only when I reach at least 2 of them?


But when you're facing half a dozen attacks every second, it doesn't take long for an unlucky streak where you go splat.

Very true, but then again, wouldn't the same be true for the standard 12/6/2 DPS-focused centered cleaver builds? Sure, damage will be a bit spikier with more focus on avoidance and less on mitigation, but they're not that far ahead in PRR.


Consider that your Inspire Courage only adds +3 over what they already have (+2 from Good Hope). Being able to stack another +3 on top of that from Fascinate (albeit only for 30 secs) is pretty useful.

Hm. This raises the issue of number of songs, and how long I need to make my limited amount last without regeneration. I need to do more testing.


Correct, they do not work with Enthrall. And, yes, you'd use Enthrall if you were seriously trying to CC. But you don't have the Charisma to 'seriously CC' so no one will be depending on you to do so. You're just hoping to get lucky.

It's fairly easy to reach DC 50 at level 20 (23 ranks, +15 from item, +6 from Greensteel Conc Opp, +2 Good Luck, +4 CHA mod). I had hoped that would suffice for at least early EH quests. Then again, noone really needs Fascinate in EH since spell-based CC still works.


It should be group-wide, but is currently single target. And it's not 'terrible', just relatively slow. It's not going to save your life, but it will save you from having to use scrolls to top yourself off after a fight.

Last time I used Sustaining Song (when U19 was just released), a single charge of a CSW wand healed more, and faster. I'll test it again on my Spellsinger.


So while other players might expect you to bring Raise Dead scrolls for emergencies, scroll Heal'ing other players really isn't a something people expect.

It's probably just my dated ideas at work here. I feel like Bards _should_ be able to scroll Heal if the situation demands it - but perhaps there's simply no demand anymore.

[Hjarki]

It's fairly easy to reach DC 50 at level 20 (23 ranks, +15 from item, +6 from Greensteel Conc Opp, +2 Good Luck, +4 CHA mod). I had hoped that would suffice for at least early EH quests. Then again, noone really needs Fascinate in EH since spell-based CC still works.

According to ddowiki (and half-handedly confirmed by some others) your DC is based on your Charisma modifier and your ranks in Perform. Skill mods to your Perform skill supposedly do nothing (they're only useful for adding sonic spellpower).


Last time I used Sustaining Song (when U19 was just released), a single charge of a CSW wand healed more, and faster. I'll test it again on my Spellsinger.

The initial burst is CLW territory. You then get healed another few hundred, a handful of points at a time over the course of the duration of the song. What's easy to miss is that you don't get a little floaty number and a log entry unless you've actually got damage to heal. It's actually a decent amount of healing per-activation, but it's not that great except when solo to save wand charges since it's bugged to single target.

[giftie]

According to ddowiki (and half-handedly confirmed by some others) your DC is based on your Charisma modifier and your ranks in Perform. Skill mods to your Perform skill supposedly do nothing (they're only useful for adding sonic spellpower).

Actually, what ddowiki claims is that in order to _qualify_ for Fascinate, it only takes into consideration trained ranks. Kind of superfluous statement, given the low 3 rank requirement for Fascinate, but the warning note is the same for all Perform-based abilities, such as Inspire Heroics (which does not even have a DC).


The initial burst is CLW territory. You then get healed another few hundred, a handful of points at a time over the course of the duration of the song. What's easy to miss is that you don't get a little floaty number and a log entry unless you've actually got damage to heal. It's actually a decent amount of healing per-activation, but it's not that great except when solo to save wand charges since it's bugged to single target.

You make a convincing argument. But I just noticed it's SS T4, so that option is out the window for this particular build. I'm kind of tempted to try a DEX/CHA-build without cleaves/OC but with metamagics and more points in SS than WC. But SS T5 and capstone is so powerful, I'd be hard pressed not to go pure TWF anyway.

[Hjarki]

You make a convincing argument. But I just noticed it's SS T4, so that option is out the window for this particular build. I'm kind of tempted to try a DEX/CHA-build without cleaves/OC but with metamagics and more points in SS than WC. But SS T5 and capstone is so powerful, I'd be hard pressed not to go pure TWF anyway.

With Acrobat, having that +1 threat range/crit multiplier is huge. If you're using a named 19-20 staff, that boosts your average damage by 20%. If you're using Sireth, it's a 30%+ boost.

The same is true over in Assassin. Not taking the crit range/multiplier talent in tier 5 for daggers/knives is a huge drop in damage.

In contrast, Spellsinger tier 5 really isn't all that great unless you're expecting to spend most of your time casting.

I suspect you may be running afoul of the same problem that led me to shelve my Bard (for now) - it's nearly impossible to come up with a build that really 'works'. You can come up with 'good for a Bard' builds. But if you take virtually any 'good for a Bard' build and subtract the Bard levels for another class, the resulting build will probably be so much stronger individually that it justifies losing the group benefits of the Bard.

[giftie]

With Acrobat, having that +1 threat range/crit multiplier is huge. If you're using a named 19-20 staff, that boosts your average damage by 20%. If you're using Sireth, it's a 30%+ boost.

The same is true over in Assassin. Not taking the crit range/multiplier talent in tier 5 for daggers/knives is a huge drop in damage.

In contrast, Spellsinger tier 5 really isn't all that great unless you're expecting to spend most of your time casting.

I suspect you may be running afoul of the same problem that led me to shelve my Bard (for now) - it's nearly impossible to come up with a build that really 'works'. You can come up with 'good for a Bard' builds. But if you take virtually any 'good for a Bard' build and subtract the Bard levels for another class, the resulting build will probably be so much stronger individually that it justifies losing the group benefits of the Bard.

But you'll trade that damage for workable DCs, Spell songs and Heal. Furthermore, in LD you could somewhat recuperate the damage loss by using Stout Oak instead of Sireth, since Pulvizer _does_ work with that staff (but still won't stack with Staff Specialization). But I just don't see Spellsinger as very melee oriented, is all. Conversely, my Elven AA pure Spellsinger is a very capable CC:er/healer while dealing quite decent damage. (Okay, so maybe I do a_ little_ stats padding with Wail, but just because it's so fun to get more kills than melees grumbling about support characters not pulling their weight. ;)

We'll see how it works out - so far I have a good feeling about this particular level split for what I'm trying to accomplish.

I'm still very happy with how this build is shaping up, and I got some very useful information here. So far, I bought your revised WC line completely, and considering swapping points around from Human to SS to boost Fascinate and/or get Enthrallment (or if I end up dropping W&S M just shuffle them around in SS tree). I also never realized Good Hope gave a +2 morale bonus to damage - I thought it was just a Mass Heroism, so that'll help even more.