Question regarding druids and two weapon fighting

[heneli627]

1. Does two weapon fighting feat line work with druids animal forms? like wolf and bear?
2. Does weapon finesse and improved weapon finesse work with druids animal forms?

[AbyssalMage]

1. Does two weapon fighting feat line work with druids animal forms? like wolf and bear?
No

2. Does weapon finesse and improved weapon finesse work with druids animal forms?
Finesse, yes
Improved Finesse, no clue

[FestusHood]

Can't test improved weapon finesse, but i will say that the dwarf enhancement throw your weight around did not work on my dwarven druid in animal form. That's the enhancement that lest you use your con mod for damage.

P.S. i've seen a couple threads saying the the two weapon fighting feats do work on animal forms, but officially they are not supposed to. I don't remember seeing anything saying this has been fixed yet.

[PsychoBlonde]

Can't test improved weapon finesse, but i will say that the dwarf enhancement throw your weight around did not work on my dwarven druid in animal form. That's the enhancement that lest you use your con mod for damage.

P.S. i've seen a couple threads saying the the two weapon fighting feats do work on animal forms, but officially they are not supposed to. I don't remember seeing anything saying this has been fixed yet.

Druid weapons are currently SUPER CRAZY COMPLEX, WEIRD, AND BROKEN. Here's how it works in general:

The weapons the druid wields apply their LISTED EFFECTS onto the druid's attacks but not their WEAPON TYPE qualities. So, if your weapon looks like this:

http://ddowiki.com/images/Stave_of_the_Seer.png

Everything that is above where it says "+4 enhancement bonus" is a WEAPON TYPE quality. Anything from "+4 enhancement" and below is a LISTED EFFECT. That PARTICULAR weapon has a weapon type quality that allows you to use your int or wis for attack and damage. An animal form druid will NOT get this benefit (although one in elemental form will) because it is NOT a LISTED EFFECT. You also don't get +[W] bonuses from weapons because that's a weapon type effect, not a listed effect.

Enhancements that allow you to use alternate stats for damage, however (like Dagger in the Back or Improved Weapon Finesse or Throw your Weight Around) actually apply a new LISTED EFFECT to the weapon. So those abilities DO work with the druid animal form attacks.

Now, here's where it starts to get really weird. The two-weapon fighting feats do actually "work" in that they allow you to proc offhand attacks that get the bonuses that are on the weapon you're wielding in your offhand. But you're not QUITE "attacking with two weapons" the same way that you do in your normal form. You can wield, say, a throwing weapon and a short sword and both types of attacks will proc with their bonuses.

From what I understand (although I believe it's not supposed to work this way so it may be "fixed" at any time), you DO get the +[w] bonuses that come from monk unarmed attacks provided you a.) have monk levels and b.) are using handwraps. Which is kind of gross since the druid animal form gets access to a bunch of attack-speed boosts that are supposed to compensate for the lack of [w] bonuses. Couple this with the offhand procs from TWF and you have MEGA ULTRA ATTACK SPEED in addition to (in some cases) getting like +11[w]. Like I said, I fully expect this to get "fixed" so it's probably unwise to base a build around it.

You can also use the Stunning Fist feat in animal form regardless of what actual weapons you are wielding as long as you count as centered.

[heneli627]

Druid weapons are currently SUPER CRAZY COMPLEX, WEIRD, AND BROKEN. Here's how it works in general:

The weapons the druid wields apply their LISTED EFFECTS onto the druid's attacks but not their WEAPON TYPE qualities. So, if your weapon looks like this:

http://ddowiki.com/images/Stave_of_the_Seer.png

Everything that is above where it says "+4 enhancement bonus" is a WEAPON TYPE quality. Anything from "+4 enhancement" and below is a LISTED EFFECT. That PARTICULAR weapon has a weapon type quality that allows you to use your int or wis for attack and damage. An animal form druid will NOT get this benefit (although one in elemental form will) because it is NOT a LISTED EFFECT. You also don't get +[W] bonuses from weapons because that's a weapon type effect, not a listed effect.

Enhancements that allow you to use alternate stats for damage, however (like Dagger in the Back or Improved Weapon Finesse or Throw your Weight Around) actually apply a new LISTED EFFECT to the weapon. So those abilities DO work with the druid animal form attacks.

Now, here's where it starts to get really weird. The two-weapon fighting feats do actually "work" in that they allow you to proc offhand attacks that get the bonuses that are on the weapon you're wielding in your offhand. But you're not QUITE "attacking with two weapons" the same way that you do in your normal form. You can wield, say, a throwing weapon and a short sword and both types of attacks will proc with their bonuses.

From what I understand (although I believe it's not supposed to work this way so it may be "fixed" at any time), you DO get the +[w] bonuses that come from monk unarmed attacks provided you a.) have monk levels and b.) are using handwraps. Which is kind of gross since the druid animal form gets access to a bunch of attack-speed boosts that are supposed to compensate for the lack of [w] bonuses. Couple this with the offhand procs from TWF and you have MEGA ULTRA ATTACK SPEED in addition to (in some cases) getting like +11[w]. Like I said, I fully expect this to get "fixed" so it's probably unwise to base a build around it.

You can also use the Stunning Fist feat in animal form regardless of what actual weapons you are wielding as long as you count as centered.

so you're saying if i went dex based with weapon finesse and used the rogue assasin lvl 3 core ability dex to damage on light weapons it would work :)?
I'd like to use two shortswords to twf and if the gtwf chain works that'd be great.

thanks for the detailed writeup, makes things alot easier.

[unbongwah]

1. Does two weapon fighting feat line work with druids animal forms? like wolf and bear?
Since U19: yes, but it has been confirmed that this is not WAI by Cordovan (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/424332-TWF-feats-now-work-with-Wolf-and-Bear-forms-is-this-wai?p=5110235&viewfull=1#post5110235), so it will probably be patched out (if it hasn't already). What animal-form druids are supposed to do is build around doublestrike bonuses; but ironically the "broken" TWF feats add more DPS than the WAI Natural Fighting ones. :rolleyes:

That said, I never advocate building around something I know is a bug / exploit, since you're only a patch away from seeing it fixed / nerfed.

2. Does weapon finesse and improved weapon finesse work with druids animal forms?
Finesse: yes.
Imp Weapon Finesse: no. Unfortunately, there's no way to add DEX to unarmed dmg, AFAIK. As far as animal forms go, STR is the only allowable dmg stat, AFAIK.

[PsychoBlonde]

so you're saying if i went dex based with weapon finesse and used the rogue assasin lvl 3 core ability dex to damage on light weapons it would work :)?
I'd like to use two shortswords to twf and if the gtwf chain works that'd be great.

thanks for the detailed writeup, makes things alot easier.

Yes, although it doesn't work with handwraps, only light "weapons" (unarmed is not considered a weapon). My housemate has a dex-build melee wolf druid halfling and this is what he does--he wields short swords because he can be centered using them. And he can use stunning fist while wielding short swords in animal form. It's really kind of screwy but it does work.

[PsychoBlonde]

Imp Weapon Finesse: no. Unfortunately, there's no way to add DEX to unarmed dmg, AFAIK. As far as animal forms go, STR is the only allowable dmg stat, AFAIK.

Just to clarify: Improved weapon finesse etc. works with the animal form as long as you are wielding a *weapon* that works with the improved weapon finesse ability. Handwraps DON'T so that is why you can't get the effect--with handwraps.

However, it would be COMPLETELY possible to play a dwarf, pick up a greataxe, and use Throw Your Weight Around. Just not with, you know, any weapon that doesn't, on its own, work with Throw Your Weight Around.

[FestusHood]

Druid weapons are currently SUPER CRAZY COMPLEX, WEIRD, AND BROKEN. Here's how it works in general:

The weapons the druid wields apply their LISTED EFFECTS onto the druid's attacks but not their WEAPON TYPE qualities. So, if your weapon looks like this:

http://ddowiki.com/images/Stave_of_the_Seer.png

Everything that is above where it says "+4 enhancement bonus" is a WEAPON TYPE quality. Anything from "+4 enhancement" and below is a LISTED EFFECT. That PARTICULAR weapon has a weapon type quality that allows you to use your int or wis for attack and damage. An animal form druid will NOT get this benefit (although one in elemental form will) because it is NOT a LISTED EFFECT. You also don't get +[W] bonuses from weapons because that's a weapon type effect, not a listed effect.

Enhancements that allow you to use alternate stats for damage, however (like Dagger in the Back or Improved Weapon Finesse or Throw your Weight Around) actually apply a new LISTED EFFECT to the weapon. So those abilities DO work with the druid animal form attacks.

Now, here's where it starts to get really weird. The two-weapon fighting feats do actually "work" in that they allow you to proc offhand attacks that get the bonuses that are on the weapon you're wielding in your offhand. But you're not QUITE "attacking with two weapons" the same way that you do in your normal form. You can wield, say, a throwing weapon and a short sword and both types of attacks will proc with their bonuses.

From what I understand (although I believe it's not supposed to work this way so it may be "fixed" at any time), you DO get the +[w] bonuses that come from monk unarmed attacks provided you a.) have monk levels and b.) are using handwraps. Which is kind of gross since the druid animal form gets access to a bunch of attack-speed boosts that are supposed to compensate for the lack of [w] bonuses. Couple this with the offhand procs from TWF and you have MEGA ULTRA ATTACK SPEED in addition to (in some cases) getting like +11[w]. Like I said, I fully expect this to get "fixed" so it's probably unwise to base a build around it.

You can also use the Stunning Fist feat in animal form regardless of what actual weapons you are wielding as long as you count as centered.

My dwarven druid has no monk levels, but took the monk past life feat, so i learned first hand that it doesn't work unless you currently have monk levels. Didn't know it also required handwraps because i didn't test it that far.

As far as the con to damage enhancement for dwarves, it sure didn't look like it worked to me. Have you actually tested it, or is what you are saying theory based?

[unbongwah]

Just to clarify: Improved weapon finesse etc. works with the animal form as long as you are wielding a *weapon* that works with the improved weapon finesse ability. Handwraps DON'T so that is why you can't get the effect--with handwraps.
I am pretty sure that any non-STR-based dmg effect is negated when you shift to animal form, which reverts to STR: e.g., the WIS to-hit & dmg mod on Flame Blades, the DEX mod from Nat Gann's staff, etc. However, it's not like I've tested every permutation, so feel free to find one which works and report back.

[Lanhelin]

The weapons the druid wields apply their LISTED EFFECTS onto the druid's attacks but not their WEAPON TYPE qualities.

Is this also valid for equipped Shields? Eg. a shield with a vorpal effect: will this effect do something in Animal Form or do I have to block & block-attack too to get it happen?

[unbongwah]

I don't know what shield comes with vorpal, but: only static bonuses from offhand items (weapon or shield) should apply to animal-form (e.g., Seeker, Spellpower, etc.); dmg effects like burst etc. do not. I say "should" because I haven't tested to see if it's just as bugged as the TWF feats are.

[Lanhelin]

I don't know what shield comes with vorpal, but: only static bonuses from offhand items (weapon or shield) should apply to animal-form (e.g., Seeker, Spellpower, etc.); dmg effects like burst etc. do not. I say "should" because I haven't tested to see if it's just as bugged as the TWF feats are.

I just tested it in Bear Form with a Shield equipped that does Fire damage to attackers. While without blocking no Fire damage was applied, while blocking I did Fire damage AND poison damage as actually I have a poisonous scimitar equipped. Since in Animal Form one cannot attack with a shield (there is none) like we had to if blocking in normal form, the main attack remains the same Animal attack (with the boni of the weapon in main hand) like without blocking. Moving is limited like when blocking in normal form, but sourrounded by mobs and with a good shield, dps could be higher than without blocking.

[PsychoBlonde]

I am pretty sure that any non-STR-based dmg effect is negated when you shift to animal form, which reverts to STR: e.g., the WIS to-hit & dmg mod on Flame Blades, the DEX mod from Nat Gann's staff, etc. However, it's not like I've tested every permutation, so feel free to find one which works and report back.

I'm absolutely sure that if it creates a listed effect on the weapon, it does work. Because I've tested it. And my housemate actually has a toon that is based around this ability.

It doesn't work if it's part of the weapon type abilities. So weapons that have an inherent alternate attack/damage mod do not grant this. It is *only* if you have an ability from enhancements or feats that you can get it in animal form.

[PsychoBlonde]

Is this also valid for equipped Shields? Eg. a shield with a vorpal effect: will this effect do something in Animal Form or do I have to block & block-attack too to get it happen?

It will only work on basic attack if you have something that causes the shield to proc attacks. TWF does not cause a shield to proc as an offhand weapon.

Interesting that it works as part of blocking, though. I've never tried that blocking-and-attacking thing on an animal form druid before.

[unbongwah]

I'm absolutely sure that if it creates a listed effect on the weapon, it does work. Because I've tested it. And my housemate actually has a toon that is based around this ability.
Now you've got me curious. Looks like it's time to make a SDK DEX rog / druid and do some testing...

[PsychoBlonde]

Now you've got me curious. Looks like it's time to make a SDK DEX rog / druid and do some testing...

If you really want to try something weird, do a monk/druid and wield a cormyrian spelltouched shuriken as your primary weapon. It's very weird.