Rogue hirelings available for platinum. [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

FranOhmsford

01-09-2014, 05:57 PM

Having Rogue trappers available to hire for platinum should cause a few to stick around long enough to buy an expansion or two.

Don't expect any frustrated player to pay real world money for Rogues that everyone already knows should have always been available for platinum.

I Buy Rogue Hirelings regularly BUT You're absolutely right - They Should be available for Plat - Significant Amounts of Plat But still for Plat!

However: There's one big issue with your stated Lvl Range that you may not have noticed:

The Lvl 9 - Corbin Kohl
&
The Lvl 10 - Veil
Are USELESS!

The Lvl 8 Rogue Hireling - Shadow - However...Is quite Capable of Doing Every trap in Xorian Cypher or Tomb of the Shadow Knight on Elite WITHOUT Augment Summoning OR Heroism!
Just so Long as you Hit his Skill Boost and Shrine him regularly!

So long as the Devs insist upon Leaving Broken Hirelings as is then Newbies will Carry on Being Disappointed {and BtW a Lvl 10 Rogue Hireling that Cannot do the traps in Lvl 8 Quests on Elite when a Lvl 8 Rogue Hireling CAN is BROKEN!}

Now - There's a bit of an issue with the Devs messing with Rogue Hirelings in that said Lvl 8 Rogue Mechanic Hireling - Shadow - Has the Old Rogue Mech Repair Construct ability which as he's WF is a HUGE Boon {Unavailable to Rogue Mechs these days!}.

It's also very annoying for Acrobats to see Acrobat Hirelings with "Showtime" on their Bars when we can no longer get it BUT Having it there is a Reminder of What we need to complain to the Devs about at least!

Rogue Acrobats - Put Showtime back in to our Trees Devs - The Acrobat Cores are an absolute Joke anyway if you don't Tumble - Move the Tumble Stuff to Optional!

Rogue Mechs - Give us our Repair Construct Back! {And make it Properly Viable too - It works ok on Shadow BUT Players need a little bit more than OK!}!
Also: What the Heck happened to our Trapping Bonuses from The Prestige?

As for Rogue Hirelings:

Lvl 1 - Riana is Great and Should Be added to the Harbour, Marketplace and Guild Melee Hireling Vendors
Lvl 2 and 3 Rogue Hirelings are frankly never used by me - The Lvl 1 is more than good enough to make these obsolete.
Lvl 4 - Talonia is Viable - Add to Marketplace and Guild Melee Hireling Vendors
Lvl 5 - Kelorn is BROKENLY OP {Rogue Mech Prestige at Lvl 5} and Needs Enhancements reset to New Rogue Mech + Drow Tree.
Lvl 6 - Kirsten Steele Needs Upgrading to New Acrobat Tree + Mech Trapping Enhancements!
Lvl 7 - Olivia Whurgan {another Acrobat} See Kirsten.
Lvl 8 - Shadow - Perfect - DON'T CHANGE
Lvl 9 - Corbin Kohl - Think he's supposed to be an Assassin - Upgrade him to New Assassin Tree + Mech Trapping Enhancements!
Lvl 10 - Veil - Oh God! A WF Acrobat - You love your Flavour Toons don't ya Devs! - See Kirsten.
Lvl 11 - Istrin - Yet another Acrobat - Change him to Assassin to better suit his Back Story - Maybe give him some Stick Fighting Enhancements from Acro and DON'T Forget the Trapping Enhancements from Mech and Drow!
Lvl 12 - Arghan Kallig - Dwarf Assassin - Upgrade to New Assassin Tree + Mech Enhancements for Trap Skills & Int.
Lvl 13 - Fira Greylocke - Rogue Mech - Upgrade to Mech Tree and Halfling Tree
Lvl 14+ - I'm sure you get the idea Devs

Give Newbies the Carrot of Providing the Lvl 1-4 Rogue Hirelings for Plat
See how that Boosts Sales of Higher Lvl Rogue Hirelings on DDOStore or Astral Shard Bought!

Provide some examples of quests than cannot be completed without a rogue and you might have an argument.

Obviously they CAN be completed without a Rogue BUT I personally would not even enter if I couldn't get the Traps:

Xorian Cypher
Tomb of the Shadow Knight

Both are at the Level the OP is talking about btw!

Qhualor

01-09-2014, 06:04 PM

WF rogues need heal amp. this needs fixing big time. not joking. their heal amp sucks. ive watched cleric hires waste their blue bar on them healing them to full when fleshy rogue hires take just 1-2 heals or just a few cures. needs fixing.

also, if im spending TP on them since I cant buy them in game for plat than their heal amp needs to be much much much better. for me, I just use them for trap xp, but sometimes they do get into some fights. for new players who don't know quests that well and use them the whole way through the quest for traps are probably wasting a lot of resources on a hire that has 0 heal amp.

mobrien316

01-09-2014, 06:33 PM

Provide some examples of quests than cannot be completed without a rogue and you might have an argument.

Completed by a new player/player with a couple months experience? Or completed by someone on their 30th life?

There are a number of quests in the game in which traps will kill inexperienced players. For low level content, the acid trap in the Waterworks can be very difficult for anyone without 30 Acid Resist ship buffs or evasion and a decent DEX score.

While I don't have the slightest problem with having deadly traps in the game, I also don't see any problem with putting hireling rogues in the Marketplace right next to the hireling healers, hasters, firewallers, and meat shields.

Impaqt

01-09-2014, 07:09 PM

Completed by a new player/player with a couple months experience? Or completed by someone on their 30th life?

I dont care. 1st.. 30th... 512th...

there isnt a quest in the game where there is a trap that must be disabled in order to complete the quest.

a first lifer free to play isnt going to be worried about an extra 500 xp from traps...

Qhualor

01-09-2014, 07:16 PM

I dont care. 1st.. 30th... 512th...

there isnt a quest in the game where there is a trap that must be disabled in order to complete the quest.

a first lifer free to play isnt going to be worried about an extra 500 xp from traps...

you missed Mobriens point. he wasn't talking about xp. he was talking about a new player that doesn't know where all the traps are yet and know the tricks to get by them. no you don't need to disable any traps in game to complete a quest just like you don't need cure pots to complete a quest or curse pots or a proper DR breaking weapon. I like the suggestion of low level rogue hires available for plat that would benefit a new player a lot more than a vet until they get a better handle on whats going on in the quests. a new player is a lot more likely to die from traps and may not have access to 30 resist buffs yet.

redspecter23

01-09-2014, 07:21 PM

The only reason you'll never be able to buy a heroic rogue with plat is that it cuts into sales of store items like bells of opening and TP and AS rogue hires. I'm actually quite surprised they have epic rogue hirelings for plat, though part of me feels they were probably put in by mistake and they can't think of a non-store reason to remove them... for now.

Money is the driving force behind game design decisions, not game balance.

However, if this reasoning isn't true, then Turbine has no real reason not to include rogue hirelings. You can buy them for TP and AS so game balance is no longer a valid reason for not allowing them for plat. It's just an uncool move to drive store sales until I hear a better excuse why we can't buy them for plat.

mobrien316

01-09-2014, 07:22 PM

I dont care. 1st.. 30th... 512th...

there isnt a quest in the game where there is a trap that must be disabled in order to complete the quest.

a first lifer free to play isnt going to be worried about an extra 500 xp from traps...

I'm not talking about the trap bonus. I'm talking about surviving the trap itself. A first life character with no gear and no ship buffs and no knowledge of where the traps are in the game is going to be killed by a decent number of traps. For low level stuff, just off the top of my head, the acid traps in Waterworks, the fire traps on the ladder in STK, and the fire traps in Rest for the Restless; all of those are likely to kill a new character. I don't think it is unreasonable at all for plat-bought rogue hirelings to be available. If a new player is willing to crawl along, watching to see if the rogue hireling's Spot goes off, why shouldn't they be able to do that with plat instead of TP's?

Impaqt

01-09-2014, 10:09 PM

I'm not talking about the trap bonus. I'm talking about surviving the trap itself. A first life character with no gear and no ship buffs and no knowledge of where the traps are in the game is going to be killed by a decent number of traps. For low level stuff, just off the top of my head, the acid traps in Waterworks, the fire traps on the ladder in STK, and the fire traps in Rest for the Restless; all of those are likely to kill a new character. I don't think it is unreasonable at all for plat-bought rogue hirelings to be available. If a new player is willing to crawl along, watching to see if the rogue hireling's Spot goes off, why shouldn't they be able to do that with plat instead of TP's?

on Elite... Yes. those traps are deadly... on reasonable difficulties for a new player. SOrry. Basic supplies, Pots, and strategy will get you through those.

I'm not a fan of "everyone should be able to cake walk through elite" either.

EnjoyTheMoment

01-09-2014, 10:59 PM

Waaye

01-09-2014, 11:12 PM

If you really need a rogue hireling for some reason, use your favor Turbine points. they are like 40 points at the most...
There is nothing to support the claim that a plat rogue hireling would increase customer retention.
Well, first of all, Impaqt, I am retired on a fixed income and cannot affort to buy things like "horse armor" or roque contracts. In the past I have bought Rogue contracts and they ran out pretty fast. 40 points is something like two virtual rogue contract hours for a real dollar. Those only lasts for a few quests and soon more real money must be spent buying more "horse armor" or whatever they call it.

As far as supporting my claim the massive layoffs at Turbine a few months ago strongly suggests a dwindling player base. If you don't believe that fact try going back to the starting area and watch the avatars for for a few minutes. With your experience you should be able to differentiate between someone levelling an alt and a newcomer. How many newcomers do you see there? Now watch the newcomers and see how many are staying past level 12. Please let me know if you notice any obvious trend.

I think the ultimate implication here is that the game ought to be made more solo-friendly after level 10 and making rogue hirelings available for platinum is among the many things they could do to make it so. There are two kinds of soloists: those who play solo because they can't find a group to their liking and those that just prefer not to depend on others and do things themselves. Most of the game's content it seems to me assumes a group and that's just a bad assumption, whatever the reasons.
Thanks for the response, Jerry, but In my case it is not a matter of liking to group but that my fleshware is so slow that I have trouble keeping up in every group I have joined. It is nobody's fault that I am slow and most other remaining DDO players are levelling alts and grinding for gear. "Solo freindly" would be very helpful for slower players like me.
There are no guilds for slow players and the LFM utility does not try and match speed at all. In fact it seems to match people at random which is kind of strange. Imagine trying to find a mate by calling people at random from the telephone book and proposing to everyone that answers the phone. Completely random matchmaking will probably fail most of the time and it hasn't worked very well in DDO for me.
After my Ranger started doing L8 quests he would be often be killed by traps. He could sometimes find the trap but often could not avoid it. Taking a hireling that could raise the dead worked for a while but now that I am L11 the traps often kill him too when he tries to get my soul stone. The hireling also can't carry the stone across water so can't always get to the shrine even when the location is known. Having a Gold Seal Rogue hireling that works for platinum should solve this problem by disarming most of the traps. If that was available then I might buy another expanson after I finish Sands.

[...] I'm talking about surviving the trap itself. [...]
Thanks for the response, mobrien, but very few of you youngsters can comprehend my talent for setting off traps and being killed by them. It is like this...dum de dum... just minding my own business sauntering down the hall.. and then, BANG! What was that? Why is everything in black and white? Look, there is a soul stone over there. It has my name on it!? Aww, ****, here we go again...Merrick! Uh oh, that is his stone over there. Sigh - recall.

That happens too often these days and my ability to get killed is far greater than most of your's is or will ever be. How can you understand being one of the best in the world in this area?

Icywave

01-09-2014, 11:17 PM

Provide some examples of quests than cannot be completed without a rogue and you might have an argument.

Some parts of the Sharn Syndicate chain can be extremely hard/undoable without a rogue.

Impaqt

01-09-2014, 11:30 PM

Some parts of the Sharn Syndicate chain can be extremely hard/undoable without a rogue.

oh. so now we're willing to spend turbine points on Sharn package.. But not on rogues?

Vellrad

01-09-2014, 11:44 PM

Provide some examples of quests than cannot be completed without a rogue and you might have an argument.

Show me a quest that can't be completed without a cleric, fvs, wizard, sorc, bard, barbarian, paladin, fighter.
Until you find at least 1, lets remove all cleric, fvs, wizard, sorc, bard, barbarian, paladin and fighter hireling contracts from plat vendor.

BTW, epic thief hires were broken with u19, and can't find anything.

Icywave

01-10-2014, 12:08 AM

oh. so now we're willing to spend turbine points on Sharn package.. But not on rogues?

I provided an example as it was challenged earlier.. I'm not the one complaining, by the way :)

Waaye

01-10-2014, 01:44 AM

The Lvl 8 Rogue Hireling - Shadow - However...Is quite Capable of Doing Every trap in Xorian Cypher or Tomb of the Shadow Knight on Elite WITHOUT Augment Summoning OR Heroism!

For a player like me this information is PRICELESS! Thank you for posting it. Now, I think I can finish the Xorian Cipher without getting blown apart in that hall after the shrines [on normal]. Shadow doesn't sound "broken" though but just about right. It is the others that are way too weak.

Ryan220

01-10-2014, 01:44 AM

Rogues for plat is a great idea.

I cant understand why there are people saying that we dont need them or the game is more fun without them.

Just because you dont want them doesnt mean they shouldnt be available to others that do.

If Rogues were made available for Plat the the nay-sayers could freely excercise thier right not to buy them.

Making them TP exclusive is unfair on those people with low or no income

Waaye

01-10-2014, 02:03 AM

on Elite... Yes. those traps are deadly... on reasonable difficulties for a new player. SOrry. Basic supplies, Pots, and strategy will get you through those.

What game are you talking about? In DDO my L9 ranger was wiped out in the hall after the shrines in Xorian Cipher on normal. It took out the group leader, my character, and two hirelings in one big shot. There was no chance to use anything or cast anything because everybody was already dead. We had to recall. How do you manage to use healing potions after you are already dead? That would help me a lot if I could figure out how to do it.

Wipey

01-10-2014, 02:23 AM

Waaye

01-10-2014, 03:23 AM

No way you die in normal Xorian traps.
You can run through elite without evasion solo or with another person unless you are really unlucky or fail a save ( you can eat 2 hits from force thing and blade if you save ).
Not with full scaling though.

You have dramatically underestimated my skill for dying which is world-class. Was hit by trap, jumped back into another trap and died there. If you need lessons then I am willing to teach you, for a price? The spheres have random effects and sometimes cause instant death. Despite the randomness I can show you how to die each and every time if you are willing to learn.

Wipey

01-10-2014, 03:43 AM

Heh, in that case splash 2 monk and 2 pally, wear 5 resist item like Innocent boots and farm Xorian for Planar Gird, oh wait...

Yeah, Tangle DW clickie mandatory and heavy fort and top notch saves ( bad fort you got stunned by archers, bad reflex you eat every lightning bolt and that acid dog thingy at end ).
At that level some 40+ ac helps ( bark or pots, protection item or shield of faith pots, dex item, shield clickie ).
Holy blunt weapon or similar.
Ship buffs.

But you still don't need trapper, just gotta prepare well :)

Wanesa

01-10-2014, 03:47 AM

/not signed

New player doing elite quests, you must be joker :)

Normal traps are not deadly anywhere at heroic levels.

I can see only one problem of this thread. Elite dificult is very easy! So easy that can be soloed by firstlivers if they can open it. This is not WAI.

Impaqt

01-10-2014, 07:39 AM

Show me a quest that can't be completed without a cleric, fvs, wizard, sorc, bard, barbarian, paladin, fighter.
Until you find at least 1, lets remove all cleric, fvs, wizard, sorc, bard, barbarian, paladin and fighter hireling contracts from plat vendor.

BTW, epic thief hires were broken with u19, and can't find anything.

I would be totally OK with that solution as well.

Impaqt

01-10-2014, 07:42 AM

You have dramatically underestimated my skill for dying which is world-class. Was hit by trap, jumped back into another trap and died there. If you need lessons then I am willing to teach you, for a price? The spheres have random effects and sometimes cause instant death. Despite the randomness I can show you how to die each and every time if you are willing to learn.

at l9+ your cleric hirling should have Raise dead. Park them before the traps. if you die. get a raise on the other side.

Loromir

01-10-2014, 08:09 AM

oh. so now we're willing to spend turbine points on Sharn package.. But not on rogues?

Cynical Much????

You asked a question...he answered. Don't like the answer????

Impaqt

01-10-2014, 08:41 AM

Cynical Much????

You asked a question...he answered. Don't like the answer????

the answer was flawed anyway. the traps are not deadly on normal.

But when the OP argues that people cant afford rogues for TP's and that they quit F2P because of it... Bringing up Pay quests is kinda silly.

FranOhmsford

01-10-2014, 09:18 AM

For a player like me this information is PRICELESS! Thank you for posting it. Now, I think I can finish the Xorian Cipher without getting blown apart in that hall after the shrines [on normal]. Shadow doesn't sound "broken" though but just about right. It is the others that are way too weak.

There's a lot of Elitists in this thread stating Falsehoods like "Nobody Dies in Xorian Traps on Normal" {Seen Many Many People die in the traps in this quest on ALL Difficulties over the years! - INCL. Rogues and Artis!} or If you can Buy Sharn Syndicate {A Cheap Lowbie Pack with 6 quests} you should have no problems buying MULTIPLE Rogue Hirelings! {So People Save up their FREE TP for Rogue Hirelings now do they?}.

Shadow ISN'T BROKEN - I Never said he was - In Fact I believe I used the word PERFECT!

What is Broken is that Corbin {lvl 9} and Veil {lvl 10} are essentially Useless in Lvl 8 quests like Xorian or Shadow Knight on Elite {Quests by the way where Getting the Traps is Basically Essential or No Loot/Lose 15k xp!}.
Now Veil and Corbin CAN be boosted enough by a Knowledgeable Player to get those traps BUT Augment Summoning {though I Personally consider it one of the most Valuable Feats in the game} is NOT on any of the Elitists Lists and you WILL be called an idiot or worse for taking it + Rangers are pretty feat starved as is and even I have trouble fitting it in.
AND
GH at Lvl 8-10 = Lol {Unless that is you've already not only completed Xorian Cypher BUT been incredibly Lucky and actually Pulled the Planar Gird {1 Charge of GH / Rest}.

Rogue Hirelings are NOT Cheap {tp wise} - Compare their TP Cost to Fighter/Barb/Wizard/Sorc Hires AND at some levels even Cleric and FvS Hires are cheaper!
And as someone who does Regularly Buy them I can Say with Certainty that that TP Cost very quickly mounts up!

BTW I'm VIP so get 500 TP / Month + I Buy the 4k TP Package at least Once a Month and usually a Smaller TP Package on the Other Fortnight!

I Don't Buy XP Pots/Slayer Pots/Guild Renown Pots or Spell Point Pots {Well I've Bought 1 Slayer Pot in the past Year and Maybe 1 XP Pot in the same time period!}.
I Don't need to Buy Packs or Expansions {Already got them all}
I've long since stopped Buying Pets.
Sometimes I do Splurge on a Cosmetic Armour or Helm though
And I have of course Bought 2 Otto's Boxes {Actually one of them was a Bigby's!}.

Gold Seal Hirelings are Probably the Top Seller in the DDOStore if you consider them as ONE Item rather than Lots of Items!

These days I have the possibility of Buying Gold Seal Rogues for Astral Shards BUT unlike so many {supposedly} here on the Forums I HAD to BUY my Astral Shards!
So again TP is Spent!

The Elitists are right about one thing though - Traps in this game do {mostly} have safe spots and Timing WILL get you thru them!

Take Sorrowdusk Isle as an Example - I USED to think that the 4 Bridge Traps in the First 4 Quests were Ridiculous and Unpassable - I WAS WRONG!

The First Two Bridge Traps actually have Large Safe Spots between the Force Jets - Just don't try to cross the Bridge in ONE Go!

And Park your Hireling in the Key Room {the door will shut behind you} BEFORE attempting to cross said Bridge so that IF you get caught by the Force Jets and Die you can reach the Far Side while a Ghost and Call your Hireling to you {he/she will teleport past the trap!}.

As for the 3rd and 4th Quest - Another Bridge Trap in each - There's a Ladder to the right as you come to the Bridge - Climb up it, go to the back wall, call hire, tell hire to stand ground/park it up there.
Then put your Feather Fall on, Cast Jump {You're a Ranger after all} and Use your Anger's Step Boots from Korthos or a Haste Pot.

Now Run to Ladder {Next to ladder actually} and Jump to Center of Bridge - Upon Hitting Centre of Bridge DON'T STOP - Jump again {this time to end of Bridge!}.
Call your Hire to you!

Waaye

01-11-2014, 02:56 AM

There's a lot of Elitists in this thread stating Falsehoods like "Nobody Dies in Xorian Traps on Normal"[...]
To be fair, FranOhmsford, you cannot expect these youngsters to have my expertise in getting killed in computer games. This is something I have been doing it since 1973 and that is more than forty years of experience at dying which is longer than most of the Elitists have been alive.

My method of wiping out in the Xorian trap hall on normal was this: Tried to jump over the first trap and hit the second. Then jumped back into the first and then forward over the second and into the third. At that point my avatar was dead. His ghost then looked back and saw Merrick bathing in damage in the first trap and repeatedly healing himself. [He seems to like damage bathing since he does it quite often.] I Called for him and he came over and raised my character and healed both of us a little. My character was unable to move and Merrick ran out of mana so we both went down quickly as we stood bathing in the trap. That is how it is done on normal difficulty.
It wasn't easy but with the right combination of low HP, bad luck, and stupid hireling it can be done by almost anyone.

[...]If you can Buy Sharn Syndicate {A Cheap Lowbie Pack with 6 quests} you should have no problems buying MULTIPLE Rogue Hirelings![...]
That is good to know, thanks. Are the hirelings good enough for L8 quests and above?

[...]Rogue Hirelings are NOT Cheap {tp wise} - Compare their TP Cost to Fighter/Barb/Wizard/Sorc Hires AND at some levels even Cleric and FvS Hires are cheaper![...]
I have managed to save 200 TP and 9 shards. That would hire Shadow for five quests with TP and two times with shards. Sadly, with few newcomers to buy things on the exchange more shards are hard to come by. For example, nobody will pay 3 shards for my L4 +1 Proof Against Poison +2 Skirmish Chainmail of Prisms with resist Poison +2, Sonic +3, and Fire +3. What L4 player on their first time through the quests would not want armour like that?

Hidden costs for things like rogue contracts cause me to hesitate to purchase more TP to buy expansions. My meagre entertainment budget just won't allow for significantly increased cost.

The Elitists are right about one thing though - Traps in this game do {mostly} have safe spots and Timing WILL get you thru them!
Perhaps you are right but you could also be seriously misunderestimating [it's a word, honestly, I heard the President use it.] my rare talent with traps.

kilagan800

01-11-2014, 04:26 AM

Using a rogue to disable traps increases the xp in the quest, so rogues will never be for sale for plat.

mkmcgw17

01-11-2014, 09:52 AM

This has been suggested for years but has always been ignored.

Players that cannot disable traps and are not fast enough to group with elites often get frustrated and leave DDO for other products. It seems that many newcomers are leaving somewhere around level 10 of their first play through even thought there are many quests still available.

Having Rogue trappers available to hire for platinum should cause a few to stick around long enough to buy an expansion or two.

Don't expect any frustrated player to pay real world money for Rogues that everyone already knows should have always been available for platinum.

I think that rogue hires u can buy with platinum have some merit .. my rogue says why don't u just pay him 400pp and hell quest with u :)

Gizeh

01-11-2014, 11:10 AM

Since we're talking about regular hirelings that are available for plat rogue hirelings could actually help new soloists to improve their playing skills, as they would not be able to take both of them into the quest: Are they able to get themselves and their cleric hireling through the traps? Or are they able to keep themselves and their rogue hireling alive? This choice could help them learn different tactics on how to approach certain problems, or how to deal with different group setups.

Of course in a group, one player could get a rogue hireling and another one could get a cleric hireling, but in terms of having both being an "easy button" there is no difference between having both of them bought with plat and one of them being bought with plat and the other one being bought with TP.

Gizeh

01-11-2014, 11:23 AM

I think that rogue hires u can buy with platinum have some merit .. my rogue says why don't u just pay him 400pp and hell quest with u :)

Because there's no way I'd trust a rogue who offers his services that cheaply. :p

Waaye

01-11-2014, 03:25 PM

Using a rogue to disable traps increases the xp in the quest, so rogues will never be for sale for plat.
Thanks for the response, kilagan800, and I hate XP too. All it does is make gear obsolete and force players to grind for more. Sadly, since most of the remaining DDO players cannot match my playing speed I have little choice but to hire a rogue to complete some quests. Hirelings can match my speed while most humans can't.

I think that rogue hires u can buy with platinum have some merit .. my rogue says why don't u just pay him 400pp and hell quest with u :)
Thanks for the offer, mkmcgw, but I doubt you could match my speed without fidgeting and jumping around. Do you think you could complete something like Xorian Cipher in two hours or more without fidgeting? It is not as easy as it sounds and completely impossible for most DDO players. What usually happens when I group is that I wind up chasing the blue dot(s) on the map and occasionally frantically mash buttons when we run into something. When the quest is complete I have no idea where we were or what we did there, it is just a blur.

Since we're talking about regular hirelings that are available for plat [...]
Sorry for not making my original statement clear, Gizeh, but I was talking about making the Gold Seal hirelings that I had been buying for TP availailable for platinum. Most independent sources now classify DDO as "Pay to Win" because of all the hidden costs. Those extra costs reduce the number of people willing to try the product in the first place. The way it is now most non-subscribing newcomers have little choice but to hire a rogue for real money or join a group and fly through the quests so fast they don't enjoy it.

What I would like to see is many more newcomers so I can finally sell my armour of Prisms for some shards. That won't happen as long as they keep nickel and diming every new non-subscribing player for things like rogue contracts and other bits of "horse armor".

Gizeh

01-11-2014, 03:57 PM

[...]

Sorry for not making my original statement clear, Gizeh, but I was talking about making the Gold Seal hirelings that I had been buying for TP availailable for platinum.

[...]

That was exactly what I said: I think it would be a good thing if they were available for plat since traps can be an issue for new or casual players, even though (or because, depending on your POV) it would force soloers to decide between a hired trapper who they'd need to keep alive during combat and a hired cleric who they'd need to get through traps - neither would be a gold seal hireling so you wouldn't be able to have both at the same time.

Waaye

01-11-2014, 06:12 PM

Since we're talking about regular hirelings that are available for plat rogue hirelings could actually help new soloists to improve their playing skills, as they would not be able to take both of them into the quest:[.,,]

Sorry but I took this to mean that I could not have Merrick and a rogue at the same time. Without Merrick and his big rock guy I would die pretty fast in most high-level quests. My Ranger can dish out damage fairly well but can't take much in return. A Ranger and rogue alone together against a brain-sucker or beholder would be pretty amusing from the boss' point of view.

Lionoress

01-11-2014, 10:57 PM

Rogue hirelings for a reasonable amount of plat would essentially invalidate traps in the game, for the most part, if they could do traps regularly. And if rogue hirelings couldn't regularly do traps, then you'd have unhappy customers complaining about how a core function of that class of hireling wasn't up to snuff, and that's like having cleric hirelings only ever getting cure minor wounds, etc. If the plat price was high, then it would be criticized as unreasonable. And so on.

Rogue hirelings are not crucial to being able to have fun in the game. The status quo is better.

Define having fun, please. I do not call being forced to either play a rogue, team with PuGs, or be forced to hope that a rogue in a guild is both a) available and b) willing to run a particular mission enjoyable. Also, I do not see how you can defend your argument that 'making rogues for hire for platinum' invalidates the reason for traps in the game'. Given that argument, being able to hire rogues at all should invalidate the reason for having traps in the game. Why should platinum make a difference? Also by that argument, you shouldn't be able to hire a cleric to raise you (doesn't that invalidate the reason for resurrection shrines?) or hire a wizard to throw spells on you (doesn't that invalidate the reason for various potions and wands in the game?)

The hirelings are in the game to make the game more accessible to people, and I, for one, am very glad they're in the game, period. Besides, getting to play a hireling character can acquaint people with how certain player mechanics work and perhaps even interest them in trying a new class.

But let's call it what it is: rogues ARE needed on many missions. Period. If they weren't, Turbine wouldn't be selling them for only points and shards, would they? They're betting people will want/need them badly enough to fork out real world cash. And it works. I don't like their philosophy, but let's face it: there isn't a game company out there that doesn't try to gouge every penny out of its audience, and Turbine's no exception.

That said, while I would love to see rogue hires for platinum, they're a cash cow for Turbine. There's no way they'll change their policy and allow that to happen.

Lionoress

01-11-2014, 11:11 PM

I realized I missed a word and part of your point, though I still disagree. I'd've edited this, but the boards aren't allowing the edit. Go figure.

<< Also, I do not see how you can defend your argument that 'making rogues for hire for platinum' invalidates the reason for traps in the game'. >>

I misquoted you, I see, and the edit/delete button won't work for my post. Go figure. :/

I still don't see why it makes a difference between being able to hire rogues for platinum and rogues for shards; the varying ability of the rogue, I suppose I can see. I really haven't had much trouble with the ones I've hired, and one of the ones which is the most disliked (Corbin) I have had no trouble with at all. The Warforged rogues, though, seem to be less responsive and I've avoided them. I automatically expect AIs in *any* game to play like a borderline bad PuG member, though, so when they don't, it comes as a pleasant surprise. :)

But you were not saying that the ability to hire for platinum for rogues invalidated traps; you were referring to the varying ability. Sorry for the misread.

Waaye

01-12-2014, 01:28 AM

[...]That said, while I would love to see rogue hires for platinum, they're a cash cow for Turbine. There's no way they'll change their policy and allow that to happen.

Well, Lionoress, it is part of Warner Brothers now and the milking herd is a lot smaller than it once was. You may be right about changing policies, though, and we will see if they really want to make changes as they have stated. Time will tell.

Wipey

01-13-2014, 01:24 AM

Waaye

01-13-2014, 11:49 AM

Rogue hirelings are not needed in any quest in game.
Ask for build advice, yes.
Ask for help with gear ( send me a PM if on Gland ) or quest tactics, many would help with that.
Thanks for offering to help with my build in the suggestion thread. Currently my character needs more than two seconds to down a beholder or brain-sucker in an elite quest at my level solo with hireling. Getting that down to a half-second would be better and no more than two shots per boss would be ideal.

All I have for gear right now for my L11 Elf Ranger is:

Wraithskin armour.
Rock Boots.
Silver Longbow [had it at L7 but could not use it until L8.]
Bow of Elements, Air.
Thornlord
Blood Stone
Boots of Featherfall
Ring of Waterbreathing [spent TP for the augment]
Ring of Heavy Fortification [spent TP for the augment]
Shard of Vollun
Flint
Nightforge Darkhelm
Nightforge Stiletto

Every item I got by soloing quests and that is why the selection is so limited. The only expansion I have is the Sands of Meni...Mun...Man...aww, heck, the desert one, and I can't get any of the really good gear.

So what does any of this have to do with my original suggestion and how would having Gold Seal rogue hireling contracts available for a reasonable amount platinum harm you in any way?

It would help me a lot because then I would not be forced to group with much faster players or take massive damage in traps when soloing quests at my level or higher. Did I mention that I had completed Ataraxia's at L7 on normal and was really nailed by some of the traps there?

My suggestion would make DDO much more enjoyable for me and other slower players that can't find compatible groups and that is why I suggested it.

harry-pancreas

01-14-2014, 02:19 PM

please don't

harry-pancreas

01-14-2014, 02:26 PM

Completed by a new player/player with a couple months experience? Or completed by someone on their 30th life?

There are a number of quests in the game in which traps will kill inexperienced players. For low level content, the acid trap in the Waterworks can be very difficult for anyone without 30 Acid Resist ship buffs or evasion and a decent DEX score.

While I don't have the slightest problem with having deadly traps in the game, I also don't see any problem with putting hireling rogues in the Marketplace right next to the hireling healers, hasters, firewallers, and meat shields.

diying in traps made me want to improve myself, not press a silly easy button, but that's just my view.

And btw - just get a cleric hire, park him, and rez after the trap in worst case...

FranOhmsford

01-14-2014, 02:33 PM

Rogue hirelings are not needed in any quest in game.
Ask for build advice, yes.
Ask for help with gear ( send me a PM if on Gland ) or quest tactics, many would help with that.

TRed to ranger few days ago.
Xorian elite with only hire to pull the lever, Brothers side, hire and dragged skelly archer on plates.
Puzzle side, tripped human mob on one pressure plate.

Nothing special, pure ranger with common gear, just a little preparation, it has nothing to do with being elitist ( seriously stop using that term as an excuse ).
"You have to waste TP on hires", such statement is really silly from a "vet".

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/542/nahc.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f2nahcj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/826/wt87.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/mywt87j)

And I suppose your Ranger was also able to open ALL the Chests then? {While not getting annihilated by the traps!}

I didn't say that Xorian Required a Rogue/Arti to complete the Quest!

I said that I personally don't see the point in even going in there without one as you miss out on the majority of the Loot! {and ALL the Interesting Loot!}.

And NO Telling a Newbie to get his/her Gird from the AH {cos yeah 500k plat+ is super cheap I know - Yes that last WAS Sarcasm!} is NOT Valid Advice!

Now how about taking your "Ranger" into Tomb of the Shadow Knight and NOT getting the 15k plus Bonus Trap XP?

Waaye

01-14-2014, 03:49 PM

diying in traps made me want to improve myself, not press a silly easy button, but that's just my view.

And btw - just get a cleric hire, park him, and rez after the trap in worst case...

People with money already have two "easy buttons" One is Gold Seal Rogue hirelings for TP and the other is the ones for shards. Rich players can take up to four of these "buttons" in addition to the one non-rogue that poor people are restricted to.

I almost always take Merrick with me but he is very stupid sometimes. Instead of raising me or grabbing my soul stone he often just stands in the trap bathing in damage while casting heal on himself until he runs out of mana. it would be great to find a healer that is smart enough to step out of a trap after it triggers. Which healer is smart enough to do that?

FranOhmsford

01-14-2014, 03:55 PM

People with money already have two "easy buttons" One is Gold Seal Rogue hirelings for TP and the other is the ones for shards. Rich players can take up to four of these "buttons" in addition to the one non-rogue that poor people are restricted to.

I almost always take Merrick with me but he is very stupid sometimes. Instead of raising me or grabbing my soul stone he often just stands in the trap bathing in damage while casting heal on himself until he runs out of mana. it would be great to find a healer that is smart enough to step out of a trap after it triggers. Which healer is smart enough to do that?

Marissa!

Seriously Sammy's not actually a bad hire - there are some who make him look like Han Solo!

BUT

Marissa is one of the best there is! At any Level!

The Lvl 9 FvS - Lani - is useful for one thing and one thing only - She's the only hire in the entire game to have FoM on her bar!
The Lvl 10 Cleric - Fayden - is Squishy as Heck!
The Lvl 10 FvS - Actually WHO is the Lvl 10 FvS?
The Lvl 11 Cleric - Arkyn - Gets confused way too easily and happens to be almost as squishy as Fayden too!
The Lvl 11 FvS- Erm looks like I haven't used this one in a long time either!

Frankly I tend to use Marissa from Lvl 9 to Lvl 12 when I can get Miranda!

Duerim at 13 {He has Mass Deathward}
Tempys at 14-15
Natasha or Isadora or Althea at 16-17
Heystack or Merenon at 18-19
Wyoh at 20!

Panzermeyer

01-14-2014, 03:59 PM

Provide some examples of quests than cannot be completed without a rogue and you might have an argument.

Any quest that new players are not experienced with and know backwards and forwards.

Waaye

01-15-2014, 01:12 AM

Marissa!
Seriously Sammy's not actually a bad hire - there are some who make him look like Han Solo!
BUT
Marissa is one of the best there is!
At any Level!
Thanks for the tip, FranOhmsford, and I will try Marissa next time out especially since I think Merrick is drinking on the job. His speech seems slurred and and he just stands in traps feeling no pain. If you look closely at his mace it looks hollow with a cap at the end of the handle. It is probably an Everfull Mace of Aqua Vitae [brandy] or something like that. [Wouldn't mind one of those myself, to steady my nerves.]

Even if it is just my badly built and poorly geared character that has a problem with traps I still think that having some sort of Silver Seal Rogue Hireling for platinum would be good. Having Marissa and a trapper at the same time would really help to make soloing bearable for some users.

First time through a long quest I usually take over two hours but many youngsters going their slowest on the same quest take 20 minutes. That is still six times faster than my normal speed and is why I really have no other choice but to go solo.

harry-pancreas

01-15-2014, 08:32 AM

And I suppose your Ranger was also able to open ALL the Chests then? {While not getting annihilated by the traps!}

I didn't say that Xorian Required a Rogue/Arti to complete the Quest!

I said that I personally don't see the point in even going in there without one as you miss out on the majority of the Loot! {and ALL the Interesting Loot!}.

And NO Telling a Newbie to get his/her Gird from the AH {cos yeah 500k plat+ is super cheap I know - Yes that last WAS Sarcasm!} is NOT Valid Advice!

Now how about taking your "Ranger" into Tomb of the Shadow Knight and NOT getting the 15k plus Bonus Trap XP?

you got another p2w option, bell of opening and gold daily rolls to make up thaat 15k xp...

harry-pancreas

01-15-2014, 08:37 AM

People with money already have two "easy buttons" One is Gold Seal Rogue hirelings for TP and the other is the ones for shards. Rich players can take up to four of these "buttons" in addition to the one non-rogue that poor people are restricted to.

I almost always take Merrick with me but he is very stupid sometimes. Instead of raising me or grabbing my soul stone he often just stands in the trap bathing in damage while casting heal on himself until he runs out of mana. it would be great to find a healer that is smart enough to step out of a trap after it triggers. Which healer is smart enough to do that?

i'd still would like to see easy buttons removed and not make them even more accesible.

And new people should be doing normals, hard as much.

Seriously, who starts playing a PC game in the harder difficulty ?

Don't rush and you need no easy buttons, not even healer hirelings (i speak in my own experience).
normal xp as a 1st lifer is fine, lot of quests still offer a good challenge if you got not much gear, the quest is completely new and you solo (can try hard for the ones that don't)

Elite, and soloing elite, will come with time (and faster than one would think since this game is easy after you play for a while)

Qhualor

01-15-2014, 09:18 AM

i'd still would like to see easy buttons removed and not make them even more accesible.

And new people should be doing normals, hard as much.

Seriously, who starts playing a PC game in the harder difficulty ?

Don't rush and you need no easy buttons, not even healer hirelings (i speak in my own experience).
normal xp as a 1st lifer is fine, lot of quests still offer a good challenge if you got not much gear, the quest is completely new and you solo (can try hard for the ones that don't)

Elite, and soloing elite, will come with time (and faster than one would think since this game is easy after you play for a while)

Any game I play I start off on at least hard difficulty. If I find its too hard, I drop to normal. If its too easy, I go up to elite. When you don't know how difficult a game is until after you start playing it, it can be difficult to know what the setting should be. That's why I always start in the middle.

When you look at the lfm, you see a lot of "know it", "byoh", "xp farm" and "zerg" elite lfms. I was looking at the low level lfms last night and that's pretty much all I saw. New players really should start out on normal until they have a better grasp on their character and the game, but they won't know until after they start playing a few levels probably and after they have grouped with some unfriendly players.

New players are probably going to start off as 28 pointers, have no plat, probably not in a guild yet or any decent gear. They probably won't put skill points as needed that's more beneficial for their build and not know how many points is good to invest in each stat.

DDO is advertised as a multi player game. New players come to DDO expecting to be able to group with others. It takes a little while to realize that DDO now favors soloing. I see frustrated new players in Harbor and Korthos chat channels upset because nobody will play with them or they can only get a couple or so players. I see low level lfms that just sit there because some of these players think you need 6 players in a group.

Its easy for us who have been playing awhile to understand how the game pretty much works. A new player won't know for awhile and by the time they do figure it out, it could be too late.

Fedora1

01-15-2014, 09:29 AM

Provide some examples of quests than cannot be completed without a rogue and you might have an argument.

Pretend you didn't play the game for several years and don't know where all the traps are or how to avoid them.

Just because you can complete any quest without a cleric hireling is not a reason to NOT have cleric hirelings available. Why should it be different with a rogue hireling?

harry-pancreas

01-15-2014, 09:46 AM

Pretend you didn't play the game for several years and don't know where all the traps are or how to avoid them.

Just because you can complete any quest without a cleric hireling is not a reason to NOT have cleric hirelings available. Why should it be different with a rogue hireling?

because it would get rid one of the little mechanics we still have that's not favoruing the soloists, and since it's a MMO, i'd say the game should favour grouping

We already lost the need of healers, and most traps are avoidable if you're up to die a few times and understand the timing and mechanics.
Let's keep a few quests where you actually need people -_- (looking at you, TOR change...)

FranOhmsford

01-15-2014, 09:50 AM

you got another p2w option, bell of opening and gold daily rolls to make up thaat 15k xp...

Gold Rolls are Weekly!
and FREE for Me!

I'm NOT going to waste Shards on Randomness ty

And Bells of Opening are a Waste of TP!

1 Bell per Lock OR A Rogue Hireling that lasts an hour or however long you're in quest - whichever's longer!
And does Traps and DPS too {not much DPS I'll grant compared to a Player but far more than any other Melee Hireling!

Why would ANYONE buy the Bell?

harry-pancreas

01-15-2014, 09:50 AM

Any game I play I start off on at least hard difficulty. If I find its too hard, I drop to normal. If its too easy, I go up to elite. When you don't know how difficult a game is until after you start playing it, it can be difficult to know what the setting should be. That's why I always start in the middle.

When you look at the lfm, you see a lot of "know it", "byoh", "xp farm" and "zerg" elite lfms. I was looking at the low level lfms last night and that's pretty much all I saw. New players really should start out on normal until they have a better grasp on their character and the game, but they won't know until after they start playing a few levels probably and after they have grouped with some unfriendly players.

New players are probably going to start off as 28 pointers, have no plat, probably not in a guild yet or any decent gear. They probably won't put skill points as needed that's more beneficial for their build and not know how many points is good to invest in each stat.

DDO is advertised as a multi player game. New players come to DDO expecting to be able to group with others. It takes a little while to realize that DDO now favors soloing. I see frustrated new players in Harbor and Korthos chat channels upset because nobody will play with them or they can only get a couple or so players. I see low level lfms that just sit there because some of these players think you need 6 players in a group.

Its easy for us who have been playing awhile to understand how the game pretty much works. A new player won't know for awhile and by the time they do figure it out, it could be too late.

yup, i do the same, usually the easiest difficulty it's just too easy. But i started on normal in DDO since i saw i was stepping alone to do stuff that was meant for 6 persons: not bots, like other stand-alone PC games where you have a group (BG, BG II, blah blah), persons.
Firs time i soloed KA with a level 3 toon on normal was pretty epic! (ik, they're kobolds, but it was fun)

Fedora1

01-15-2014, 11:06 AM

because it would get rid one of the little mechanics we still have that's not favoruing the soloists, and since it's a MMO, i'd say the game should favour grouping

We already lost the need of healers, and most traps are avoidable if you're up to die a few times and understand the timing and mechanics.
Let's keep a few quests where you actually need people -_- (looking at you, TOR change...)

And yet with cleric hirelings people still put up LFM's, don't they?
The DDO Store still sells healing elixirs.

My point is that making rogues available for plat won't change grouping or store sales. Think of it like this, normal (non-gold seal) rogues would make a player choose between a rogue OR cleric hireling to solo with. If he's gonna solo, he's gonna solo.

harry-pancreas

01-15-2014, 11:26 AM

And yet with cleric hirelings people still put up LFM's, don't they?
The DDO Store still sells healing elixirs.

My point is that making rogues available for plat won't change grouping or store sales. Think of it like this, normal (non-gold seal) rogues would make a player choose between a rogue OR cleric hireling to solo with. If he's gonna solo, he's gonna solo.

yeah you're probably right- i just have a personal issue with the silly bots and i'd love to see 0 persons using them.

But if we'll use them regardless, guess you're right (heck, even i do it once a month or so for specific issues)

harry-pancreas

01-15-2014, 11:26 AM

Gold Rolls are Weekly!
and FREE for Me!

I'm NOT going to waste Shards on Randomness ty

And Bells of Opening are a Waste of TP!

1 Bell per Lock OR A Rogue Hireling that lasts an hour or however long you're in quest - whichever's longer!
And does Traps and DPS too {not much DPS I'll grant compared to a Player but far more than any other Melee Hireling!

Why would ANYONE buy the Bell?

cuz bots suck

hp1055cm

01-15-2014, 11:47 AM

Don't expect any frustrated player to pay real world money for Rogues that everyone already knows should have always been available for platinum.
Call me crazy but I pay to play this game, and I do expect everybody else to pay also.
Choosing a rogue over a healer would be more frustrating for a new player, so Tur-bine did them a favor I say.

on Elite... Yes. those traps are deadly... on reasonable difficulties for a new player. SOrry. Basic supplies, Pots, and strategy will get you through those.
I'm not a fan of "everyone should be able to cake walk through elite" either.
Exactly.

oh. so now we're willing to spend turbine points on Sharn package.. But not on rogues?
+1 Amazing how quickly a little common sense can unwind a sham argument...

What game are you talking about? In DDO my L9 ranger was wiped out in the hall after the shrines in Xorian Cipher on normal. It took out the group leader, my character, and two hirelings in one big shot.
Rangers get evasion at level 9 which should allow you to survive those traps on normal. Seriously - how could you die in those traps on normal unless you just stood there doing nothing for awhile?
Are you sure the traps took you out and not the mobs that spawn there?
I assume you didn't know the traps were there - but now that you do you could avoid the party wipe, correct? Did you reenter or restart the quest and finish it?
This quest WARNS you that it is an "Extreme Challenge Dungeon" when you enter it. It isn't an easy quest even without considering the traps, but the traps aren't a major deterrent to completing it.

diying in traps made me want to improve myself, not press a silly easy button, but that's just my view.
And btw - just get a cleric hire, park him, and rez after the trap in worst case...
^^ This.

If someone quits over the frustration of dying in traps (as per the OP) then I say no big loss; probably not someone I would want to run with anyway. As if every setback in the game were a reason to make something available for free (platinum)?
It amazes me that they provide a helpful solution (gold seal rogues) to help people play the game but that still doesn't satisfy some people - they want it for free. You get what you pay for... and sometimes less.

Qhualor

01-15-2014, 12:23 PM

Its funny how this thread started off about buying rogue hires for plat than escalates to easy button and "learn to get past the traps".

Seikojin

01-15-2014, 12:37 PM

Offering a rogue hireling for plat would kill any need for the class in party.

Qhualor

01-15-2014, 12:42 PM

Offering a rogue hireling for plat would kill any need for the class in party.

Like cleric hires? I solo 3/4 of the heroics and buy rogue hires from the store if I think its worth getting trap xp. The way the game is now with self sufficiency and difficulty level has decreased over time, there hasn't been a "need" for any class or even a full group.

I see nothing wrong with offering at least low level rogue hires for plat. It would benefit the new players a lot more than the vets.

harry-pancreas

01-15-2014, 01:12 PM

Its funny how this thread started off about buying rogue hires for plat than escalates to easy button and "learn to get past the traps".

what are hirelings and rogue hirelings ?

an easy button and a way to pass traps (without learning)

Like cleric hires? I solo 3/4 of the heroics and buy rogue hires from the store if I think its worth getting trap xp. The way the game is now with self sufficiency and difficulty level has decreased over time, there hasn't been a "need" for any class or even a full group.

I see nothing wrong with offering at least low level rogue hires for plat. It would benefit the new players a lot more than the vets.

and we get a new generation of no-brainers and then we get d0000000000000000000000000000000m

vets had no hires, no BB, no WF with repair spells (and i could keep going and going) and they're alive. I'm not one of them, but i'm aware of this.

Fedora1

01-15-2014, 02:47 PM

vets had no hires, no BB, no WF with repair spells (and i could keep going and going) and they're alive. I'm not one of them, but i'm aware of this.

And at the exact same time you had others who weren't as good as those players. Things have not changed, some are good players and some are not. But as long as the game has a lot of players it will stay in business.

harry-pancreas

01-15-2014, 02:55 PM

And at the exact same time you had others who weren't as good as those players. Things have not changed, some are good players and some are not. But as long as the game has a lot of players it will stay in business.

yup!

so we want a good game with a clever but a bit smaller playerbase, or an easy game with lot of people, of any kind ?

i know i sound like a jerk... but i think everything in the world, in every aspect, should tend towards making things better. More hours you don't use your brain, more difficult will be to use when you actually need it

ok, too much philosophy for today. Thanks for the debate.

Waaye

01-15-2014, 07:30 PM

i'd still would like to see easy buttons removed and not make them even more accesible.
Well, I suppose they could start by removing the five "easy buttons" that rich people get to take on their quests. Six, really, if you count those tasty little cakes.

And new people should be doing normals, hard as much.
Earning favour is the only affordable way I have found to get TP to buy expansions. At higher levels it becomes increasingly difficult to find enough free content to level up. There is little choice for me but to repeat all the available quests at every level to earn the needed favour.

Seriously, who starts playing a PC game in the harder difficulty ?
My character is prevented from doing any quest on hard or elite without doing it on normal first. Then I must repeat the quest another two times to get all the favour and that still doesn't earn enough TPs to buy an expansion.

[...] Don't rush and you need no easy buttons, not even healer hirelings (i speak in my own experience).[...]
Never rush solo but I am an adventurer, not a fighter, and cannot find a wand of POOF!-GONE! so I take Merrick instead.

[...]normal xp as a 1st lifer is fine, lot of quests still offer a good challenge if you got not much gear, the quest is completely new and you solo (can try hard for the ones that don't)[...]
At no time has my character had any problems in combat. At first he almost always died from drowning or falling. A couple of good augments fixed that but they both cost TP because I could not afford the 200,000+ pp they wanted at the auction. [Almost got a Bottle of Air in that Cartamon quest but it was beneath the blades which restarted when I swam down. Called my healer and the blades killed him too. Had to recall and leave the bottle because there was no cake.]

At first, the traps were not much of a problem and about the only one that got me at lower levels was the trap in the alcove in the sewer but by about level 8 the traps were hitting hard and often. Half the time my hireling would revive my character but the rest of the time he would just stand there and die bathing in the damage from the trap.

Elite, and soloing elite, will come with time (and faster than one would think since this game is easy after you play for a while)
This is my experience too, the fiftieth time through the desert to get the Blood Stone was very much easier than the first. Now I can visit all the boss spots there in about half an hour. Sadly, that does not help me survive traps. I do have a +20 wooden thingy that allows reincarnation but if I take a splash of rogue then it will always take much longer to defeat nasty things like brain-suckers. With a rogue hireling avalable for platinum I can disable the traps and keep my brains too. In what way does this proposed extra "easy button" harm you?

[...]New players really should start out on normal until they have a better grasp on their character and the game[...]
Thanks for responding, Qhalor, but I have no choice but to do quests on normal first before the next higher level will unlock. Then I have to repeat them on hard and elite to get the favour.

[...]but they won't know until after they start playing a few levels probably and after they have grouped with some unfriendly players.[...]
So far I have been lucky and have not encountered any unfriendly players in the game. The half dozen times I have grouped the players were friendly, fast, and somewhat patronizing. For example. When I was L8 I went with a friendly group in a wilderness area. They kept "helping" by constantly explaining obvious things about using a bow. This was surprising since by that time my Ranger had already obtained Wraithskin and the Silver Longbow solo and knew the basics. The advice kept coming until I stopped and said "Do you see that boss over there, across the chasm?" They responded "yes". Then I said "watch" and pressed Next Target, ManyShot, and held Attack for a few seconds until the boss fell. Killing a boss at long range was not exceptional for a Ranger but after that the advice stopped as we flew across the remainder of the map.

Call me crazy.[...]
Okay, your'e crazy. Honestly, your statement reminds me of the old joke about throwing all the teenagers off of a cliff because they are obnoxious. I used to know why you can't do that but I forgot. My mind is like a steel trap - It is rusty and it squeeks sometimes.

[...]but I pay to play this game, and I do expect everybody else to pay also..
DDO belongs to Turbine and they were the ones that invited me to play because the subscription model was no longer working. Their best shot at continuing DDO is to attract a large viewing audience and sell advertising. There is no reason for subscribers to see the ads so why would they even care? Would you also expect everyone to subscribe to cable TV too instead of "piking" the signal from the air?

[...]how could you die in those traps on normal unless you just stood there doing nothing for awhile?.
The method has already been explained by me before in this thread. If you give me a single, measly, L12 Green Steel bow I can demonstate the technique but won't guarantee the results. You clearly do not have the build, gear, experience, or talent, for trap-dying. It takes many years of practice to get as good at it as I am.

Vellrad

01-16-2014, 02:47 AM

Offering a rogue hireling for plat would kill need to splash 1 level of rogue.

FTFY

Really, theif hires would help newbs, vets ignore traps or take 1 lvl of thief and can disable anything in game.

Besides, there are epic thief hires for plat, so there should be heroic too.

harry-pancreas

01-16-2014, 07:57 AM

Well, I suppose they could start by removing the five "easy buttons" that rich people get to take on their quests. Six, really, if you count those tasty little cakes.

--They could, but will never happen. We will always have some p2w as this is a f2p game.

Earning favour is the only affordable way I have found to get TP to buy expansions. At higher levels it becomes increasingly difficult to find enough free content to level up. There is little choice for me but to repeat all the available quests at every level to earn the needed favour.

make a low level barbarian, go to 100 favor (you get a good bonus on TP's earned for the 1st 100 favor), rinse and repeat. Barbarians are good for this cuz they run fast.

My character is prevented from doing any quest on hard or elite without doing it on normal first. Then I must repeat the quest another two times to get all the favour and that still doesn't earn enough TPs to buy an expansion.

Welcome to DDO

Never rush solo but I am an adventurer, not a fighter, and cannot find a wand of POOF!-GONE! so I take Merrick instead.
I was doing them with a wizard tbh. Any character can.

At no time has my character had any problems in combat. At first he almost always died from drowning or falling. A couple of good augments fixed that but they both cost TP because I could not afford the 200,000+ pp they wanted at the auction. [Almost got a Bottle of Air in that Cartamon quest but it was beneath the blades which restarted when I swam down. Called my healer and the blades killed him too. Had to recall and leave the bottle because there was no cake.]

You can pull augments from chests, on low level fairly often. And check on cannith crafting, it's outdated but still useful IMO

At first, the traps were not much of a problem and about the only one that got me at lower levels was the trap in the alcove in the sewer but by about level 8 the traps were hitting hard and often. Half the time my hireling would revive my character but the rest of the time he would just stand there and die bathing in the damage from the trap.
If you know where is the trap, park him and put him on passive (icons 1 and 6 in the hire bar iirc. If trap surprised you, start running backwards as a ghost and tell him/her to follow you. You probably know that already, and sometimes is not easy. Hires are dumb

This is my experience too, the fiftieth time through the desert to get the Blood Stone was very much easier than the first. Now I can visit all the boss spots there in about half an hour. Sadly, that does not help me survive traps. I do have a +20 wooden thingy that allows reincarnation but if I take a splash of rogue then it will always take much longer to defeat nasty things like brain-suckers. With a rogue hireling avalable for platinum I can disable the traps and keep my brains too. In what way does this proposed extra "easy button" harm you?

It wouldnt harm me cuz i don't use hirelings, maybe it would if i group with someone who do. Don't take it personally, i actually know you and i understand what's going on to you. I just don't think rogue hires for plat will be healthy for the game and you're an exception. You could keep your brains as a rogue splash, but without some gear probably will need to take a few rogue levels. Plus you should play what you like

Thanks for responding, Qhalor, but I have no choice but to do quests on normal first before the next higher level will unlock. Then I have to repeat them on hard and elite to get the favour.

So far I have been lucky and have not encountered any unfriendly players in the game. The half dozen times I have grouped the players were friendly, fast, and somewhat patronizing. For example. When I was L8 I went with a friendly group in a wilderness area. They kept "helping" by constantly explaining obvious things about using a bow. This was surprising since by that time my Ranger had already obtained Wraithskin and the Silver Longbow solo and knew the basics. The advice kept coming until I stopped and said "Do you see that boss over there, across the chasm?" They responded "yes". Then I said "watch" and pressed Next Target, ManyShot, and held Attack for a few seconds until the boss fell. Killing a boss at long range was not exceptional for a Ranger but after that the advice stopped as we flew across the remainder of the map.
Pple sometimes help too much, but can't blame them (us)

The method has already been explained by me before in this thread. If you give me a single, measly, L12 Green Steel bow I can demonstate the technique but won't guarantee the results. You clearly do not have the build, gear, experience, or talent, for trap-dying. It takes many years of practice to get as good at it as I am.

well you would need to do the shroud a few times first, but when you're there, i'd gladly pass some ings

--

Waaye

01-16-2014, 05:49 PM

--They could, but will never happen. We will always have some p2w as this is a f2p game.[...]
Pay to win is not the same as free to play. Some DDO competitors are sponsored to play and pay for cosmetics but are not pay to win. They seem to be doing well with that model. Paying for DDO expansions does not bother me but having to buy additional "horse armor" like rogue contracts or tasty cakes does.

[...] rinse and repeat.[...]
This is a HUGE issue. My Elf has not had a bath since he arrived. Where can I find a bar of sload soap?

[...]start running backwards as a ghost and tell him/her to follow you.[...]
That won't work if he does not have the soul stone. Half the time he just stands in the trap instead of getting the stone. He is probably drunk and the next time he's sleeping I will take a closer look at that Everfull Mace of his.

[...]It wouldnt harm me[...]
But it would help me, and many others on their first time through the quests. If rogue hirelings were available for platinum I might even buy some more TP and get another expansion.

[...]i actually know you[...]
Are you sure about that? Were you there when I purged those Tunnels of Doom or was trapped in that city in an Alternate Reality? Were you there when my team of six L8 heroes defeated the Mulmaster Beholder Corps? Now, that was a tough battle, even with the Dust of Disappearance. [When I encounter a Beholder today I immediately confuse them by charging in the opposite direction while screaming my fearsome battle-cry, "AYIEEE!", and flailing my sword menacingly over my head. The tactic works every time.]

[...] you're an exception. [...]
Of course I am exceptional. Nobody can confuse a Beholder the way I do. Rogue hirelings for platinum, though, would benefit me and most other f2p and premium players on their first time through.

[...]Pple sometimes help too much, but can't blame them (us)[...]
It does not make me angry or sad but it is funny. Look at the forum posts. Somebody asks something like "when is tavern night on this server" One of the first posts is that the OP's build is wrong and he should PM the poster for advice. Soon after that the OP is told that his gear is deficient and must be improved. Getting straight answers on these forums is like trying to herd cats. It can't be done but is amusing to watch people try.

[...]well you would need to do the shroud a few times first, but when you're there, i'd gladly pass some ings[...]
Won't be able to meet you in the Shroud because I don't own it. Green Steel longbows are like a dime a dozen. Almost everyone that is anyone has several. I don't even need the bow but have to charge something for sharing my expertise in the lost art of trap-dying.

Besides, students pay more attention to their lessons when they have to pay for the schooling. The fee is more for them than me but I am willing to make the sacrifice of having to haul the darn bow around. That is just the sort of self-sacrificing kind of guy that I am.

harry-pancreas

01-17-2014, 07:56 AM

Pay to win is not the same as free to play. Some DDO competitors are sponsored to play and pay for cosmetics but are not pay to win. They seem to be doing well with that model. Paying for DDO expansions does not bother me but having to buy additional "horse armor" like rogue contracts or tasty cakes does.

This is a HUGE issue. My Elf has not had a bath since he arrived. Where can I find a bar of sload soap?

try the leaky dinky, but they might charge you. Or buy ask the coin lords for some soap and sneak into the harbor at night for a bath. And again, welcome to ddo. Rinse an repeat, rinse and repeat. And repeat 1 more time.

That won't work if he does not have the soul stone. Half the time he just stands in the trap instead of getting the stone. He is probably drunk and the next time he's sleeping I will take a closer look at that Everfull Mace of his.
You just need to move him from the trap, not run a marathon

But it would help me, and many others on their first time through the quests. If rogue hirelings were available for platinum I might even buy some more TP and get another expansion.

As it would help you to buy +10 permanent strength for platinum. Not the point

Are you sure about that? Were you there when I purged those Tunnels of Doom or was trapped in that city in an Alternate Reality? Were you there when my team of six L8 heroes defeated the Mulmaster Beholder Corps? Now, that was a tough battle, even with the Dust of Disappearance. [When I encounter a Beholder today I immediately confuse them by charging in the opposite direction while screaming my fearsome battle-cry, "AYIEEE!", and flailing my sword menacingly over my head. The tactic works every time.]
Re-Check your private messages and who's my toon. We didn't play toghether but i'm aware of you're "problems"

Of course I am exceptional. Nobody can confuse a Beholder the way I do. Rogue hirelings for platinum, though, would benefit me and most other f2p and premium players on their first time through.

you should play with me before you say nobody can confuse a beholder as you do
It does not make me angry or sad but it is funny. Look at the forum posts. Somebody asks something like "when is tavern night on this server" One of the first posts is that the OP's build is wrong and he should PM the poster for advice. Soon after that the OP is told that his gear is deficient and must be improved. Getting straight answers on these forums is like trying to herd cats. It can't be done but is amusing to watch people try.
There are many "proven" recipies to do certain stuff the player database use, as this is an old game

Won't be able to meet you in the Shroud because I don't own it. Green Steel longbows are like a dime a dozen. Almost everyone that is anyone has several. I don't even need the bow but have to charge something for sharing my expertise in the lost art of trap-dying.
If you wan't an advice, only thru favour is really really hard to get high level packs. I'd buy the vale/Reaver's reach (no one will recommend this pack, but i love it)/gianthold before an expansion too

Besides, students pay more attention to their lessons when they have to pay for the schooling. The fee is more for them than me but I am willing to make the sacrifice of having to haul the darn bow around. That is just the sort of self-sacrificing kind of guy that I am.
Not agree. I pay more attention when i'm learning useful stuff, regardless i've payed for it or not

Oh, and i don't think the cosmetics and all that **** would be enough money for turbine/wb. P2W is better

bsquishwizzy

01-17-2014, 05:02 PM

Offering a rogue hireling for plat would kill any need for the class in party.

Ever use one of those rogue hirelings?

I'd wait for a rogue before using a hireling, honestly.

As far as the OP is concerned, the fact that you cannot buy a rogue for plat (with the exception of epic rogues) is that it is a source of income to the DDO store. For a new player, traps are scary, not everyone had a good search skill, and most treasure is hidden behind secret doors. So, this is a sure-fire way of getting sales.

Sorry, I don't see this happening...

Waaye

01-17-2014, 05:58 PM

[...] ask the coin lords for some soap and sneak into the harbor at night for a bath. [...]
All the time you are in Korthos everyone tells you soap is available at the end. Then when you finally finish and sail to the city there is none to be found anywhere, not even in other dimensions. After months of searching it becomes obvious - THE SOAP IS A LIE! Sorry to be the one to have to tell you this.

[...] You just need to move him from the trap, not run a marathon [...]
In my experience once a hireling starts a task he will ignore all commands until the task is completed. If the healer gets into a trap that causes more damage than they can heal they ignore all commands until they run out of mana attempting to heal. Even if they do get your stone after that they will be nearly dead with no SP and are often unable to get to a shrine. So, far I have been unable to replenish their SP which would help things a lot. Disabling the trap would work too.

[...]Re-Check your private messages and who's my toon. We didn't play toghether but i'm aware of you're "problems" [...]
Yes, thank you for your messages but you are probably aware of only some of my "problems". Did you know that I hate multi-classing with a passion? It is absurd that a Fighting-man would ever be able to cast spells like a Magic-user. I also hate quests in computer games that should cause a radical alignment shift but don't. What non-evil character could possibly murder a sentient minotaur to frame an ambassador and then keep the same alignment? Their alignment should instantly and permanently change to evil in any game related to D&D or any other RPG with alignment for that matter.

[...] you should play with me [...]
A meta-gamer like you and and gamer like me cannot adventure together because the speed differential is too great.

[...] before you say nobody can confuse a beholder as you do [...]
There is no way you can possibly match my confusion. After many decades of experience my responses have been honed to the speed of instict triggered by intuition. In virtually every case I will have already charged at blinding speed halfway back to the rear echelons ... um ... for reinforcments before you even know the mob is there. Heck, I often have begun the charge of confusion even before I know the mob is there. [Especially when I know there are RUST MONSTERS!!!! around.]

[...] I'd buy the vale/Reaver's reach (no one will recommend this pack, but i love it)/gianthold before an expansion too [...]
Sorry but I won't be buying anything more as long as I don't know the total cost up front first. Paying for substantial content is okay but I won't give Turbine a blank cheque for an unknown amount of "horse armor" that is also needed to complete said content.

[...] I pay more attention when i'm learning useful stuff, regardless i've payed for it or not [...]
So, I guess that means no Greensteel Bow as a fee for me? How about trading a really rare bow with unique abilities for a common Green Steel bow then? Giant's Roar is L6 which is twice as better than the Greensteel's L12+ because lower is better. Giant's Roar is also the only bow in the universe that has Screaming and Roaring together. No other bow has both of those things at the same time and it is impossible to craft one that does. Trading a rare bow like that for a common one does not sound like a good deal for me and it isn't. Believe me, when I tell you that I am losing my shirt on this one but I just want others to succeed in the game.
Tradesies?...anyone?...anyone?

Oh, and i don't think the cosmetics and all that **** would be enough money for turbine/wb. P2W is better
Turbine is a part of Warner Brothers but WB makes the decisions. The cosmetic peddlers seem to be doing fine but P2W titles are not doing so well. Are you saying that P2W will bring in more money than pay for cosmetics can or are you saying we would all be better off without DDO?

Sorry, I don't see this happening...
Actually, neither do I but It is important that they still be given an opportunity to make the changes necessary to continue. They have already 'thrown' most of teenagers off of the cliff and will soon find out why that can't possibly work.

harry-pancreas

01-20-2014, 09:45 AM

All the time you are in Korthos everyone tells you soap is available at the end. Then when you finally finish and sail to the city there is none to be found anywhere, not even in other dimensions. After months of searching it becomes obvious - THE SOAP IS A LIE! Sorry to be the one to have to tell you this.

In my experience once a hireling starts a task he will ignore all commands until the task is completed. If the healer gets into a trap that causes more damage than they can heal they ignore all commands until they run out of mana attempting to heal. Even if they do get your stone after that they will be nearly dead with no SP and are often unable to get to a shrine. So, far I have been unable to replenish their SP which would help things a lot. Disabling the trap would work too.

Yes, thank you for your messages but you are probably aware of only some of my "problems". Did you know that I hate multi-classing with a passion? It is absurd that a Fighting-man would ever be able to cast spells like a Magic-user. I also hate quests in computer games that should cause a radical alignment shift but don't. What non-evil character could possibly murder a sentient minotaur to frame an ambassador and then keep the same alignment? Their alignment should instantly and permanently change to evil in any game related to D&D or any other RPG with alignment for that matter.

A meta-gamer like you and and gamer like me cannot adventure together because the speed differential is too great.

There is no way you can possibly match my confusion. After many decades of experience my responses have been honed to the speed of instict triggered by intuition. In virtually every case I will have already charged at blinding speed halfway back to the rear echelons ... um ... for reinforcments before you even know the mob is there. Heck, I often have begun the charge of confusion even before I know the mob is there. [Especially when I know there are RUST MONSTERS!!!! around.]

Sorry but I won't be buying anything more as long as I don't know the total cost up front first. Paying for substantial content is okay but I won't give Turbine a blank cheque for an unknown amount of "horse armor" that is also needed to complete said content.

So, I guess that means no Greensteel Bow as a fee for me? How about trading a really rare bow with unique abilities for a common Green Steel bow then? Giant's Roar is L6 which is twice as better than the Greensteel's L12+ because lower is better. Giant's Roar is also the only bow in the universe that has Screaming and Roaring together. No other bow has both of those things at the same time and it is impossible to craft one that does. Trading a rare bow like that for a common one does not sound like a good deal for me and it isn't. Believe me, when I tell you that I am losing my shirt on this one but I just want others to succeed in the game.
Tradesies?...anyone?...anyone?

Turbine is a part of Warner Brothers but WB makes the decisions. The cosmetic peddlers seem to be doing fine but P2W titles are not doing so well. Are you saying that P2W will bring in more money than pay for cosmetics can or are you saying we would all be better off without DDO?

Actually, neither do I but It is important that they still be given an opportunity to make the changes necessary to continue. They have already 'thrown' most of teenagers off of the cliff and will soon find out why that can't possibly work.

only 2 things:

1: LOL meta gamer xD buddy i snuck thru this whole game till level 28 without stoping to whine about traps or hires. Without healer hires, without any kind of hire (except for those quest where you need a 2nd person to pull a lever or do something, when my friends werent available. Summon hire, park him, make him pull that friggin lever, then dissmis). And yes i did solo a lot and instead of whining i made some friends with my style :) awesome peeps

After i do the quest 2-3 times, i could use a hire for specific reasons or lazyness but never ever the first time. I don't use bots cause i miss my pnp campaing that lasted 10 years, and i'm the meta gamer xD

2: You're in the wrong game

bonus: You're wrong. Minotaurs are evil. They gotta be slain, and as a ranger you can just shothead them while you're hidden in the bushes. As a paladin i'd go face to face combat with honor.

and btw i my 4 main toons are pure classes. Paladin, ranger, wizard, cleric. META GAMER LOL LOL AND LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

p.s: I'm saying we would be better without p2w, cosmetics are fine. But i don't think cosmetics (and packs) would give enough money to DDO owners. And yea, ended up being more than 2 things but this is too funny :P

trading a common bow for GS ? You wouldn't be able to craft it, you need BTC ingredients :P

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Breeze

http://ddowiki.com/page/Desert_Sand

http://ddowiki.com/page/Pandemonium

yer funny, i like you :P

Waaye

01-21-2014, 03:12 AM

only 2 things:
1: LOL meta gamer xD buddy i snuck thru this whole game till level 28 without stoping to whine about traps or hires.[...]
What I mean by a gamer or quester is someone that is still focused on completing the quests for the first time. A meta-gamer is someone that has moved beyond the quests and is levelling alts, their guilds, or other things beyond the original quests. Meta-gamers are usually fine and friendly folk but complete every quest at near the speed of light. Not good when a gamer's speed is closer to that of molasses flowing downhill in February. There seems to be no way for questers to find groups that adventure at anywhere near the same speed as they do.

Originally all DDO players were subscribers. When DDO went f2p the game was altered. In practical terms the game is p2w because it is not possible for a quester to get to L20 without spending a lot of money. This meets the definition of "p2w" at urbandictionary.com.

[...] After i do the quest 2-3 times, i could use a hire for specific reasons or lazyness but never ever the first time.[...]
As the quest level rises the traps hit harder and a rogue party member becomes mandatory for me. Virtually all player groups go too fast so the only solution is to take a rogue hireling along. Sadly, at 40 TP or 4 shards per hour a rogue contract is something I can't afford to use very much and generally don't.

A few months ago I used to roll shards once in a while and I could use some of them to buy rogue contracts. Shard rolls don't seem to happen at all anymore and when the shards stopped coming I cancelled my plans to buy another TP card to get another expansion. My funds are limited and there was no longer any way to know in advance what the total cost of the expansion would be. This is why I would like to see rogue hireling contracts available for a reasonable amount of platinum. That would allow for accurate budgeting and allow me to proceed with my planned purchase. If it doesn't happen that is okay too since the decision will have been made for me and I can go try something else.

[...]2: You're in the wrong game.[...]
Okay, i can see that, but what is the right game? There are so many available now I find it very confusing to sort them all out. Point me in the right direction and I will go there.

[...]bonus: You're wrong. Minotaurs are evil. They gotta be slain, [...]
Um, no, the quest description actually contains the word "murder" and "frame" It is these acts that are incompatible with my character's alignment and not the nature of the victim. Had to abandon the entire quest line for that reason.

[...]give enough money to DDO owners.[...]
How do you know it is about getting more money and not just about getting rid of the remaining subscribers?

[...]trading a common bow for GS ?[...]
You have it backwards. GS bows are one of the most common bows in the game world and "Giant's Roar" is one of the rarest. Besides the GR bow is one of the very few with flappy thingies at the end of the limbs.

Uska

01-21-2014, 07:50 AM

Uska

01-21-2014, 07:55 AM

you got another p2w option, bell of opening and gold daily rolls to make up thaat 15k xp...

you spending TP to get daily gold rolls?

harry-pancreas

01-21-2014, 10:44 AM

What I mean by a gamer or quester is someone that is still focused on completing the quests for the first time. A meta-gamer is someone that has moved beyond the quests and is levelling alts, their guilds, or other things beyond the original quests. Meta-gamers are usually fine and friendly folk but complete every quest at near the speed of light. Not good when a gamer's speed is closer to that of molasses flowing downhill in February. There seems to be no way for questers to find groups that adventure at anywhere near the same speed as they do.

Still wrong, i'm not fast, i'm bad with arcade games. Sucked at mario bross. You could put me somewhat in the middle

Originally all DDO players were subscribers. When DDO went f2p the game was altered. In practical terms the game is p2w because it is not possible for a quester to get to L20 without spending a lot of money. This meets the definition of "p2w" at urbandictionary.com.
It's possible in DDO, i did it, if you don't count the packs (i don't think adventure packs are pw2, more like p2play (a part of) the game

As the quest level rises the traps hit harder and a rogue party member becomes mandatory for me. Virtually all player groups go too fast so the only solution is to take a rogue hireling along. Sadly, at 40 TP or 4 shards per hour a rogue contract is something I can't afford to use very much and generally don't.
go normal then hard then group, that's what i did (just an advice about how i found a "solution"). Also took 3 hours to do some quests on elite, but usually with some slowie friends as i am

A few months ago I used to roll shards once in a while and I could use some of them to buy rogue contracts. Shard rolls don't seem to happen at all anymore and when the shards stopped coming I cancelled my plans to buy another TP card to get another expansion. My funds are limited and there was no longer any way to know in advance what the total cost of the expansion would be. This is why I would like to see rogue hireling contracts available for a reasonable amount of platinum. That would allow for accurate budgeting and allow me to proceed with my planned purchase. If it doesn't happen that is okay too since the decision will have been made for me and I can go try something else.

yeah spending money for hires suck, i know the feeling. I'm sorry your funds are limited, but well, guess is about priorities (most of the "real" money i spend and spent is on packs, and extra space for items because it gets super harsh at high levels)

Okay, i can see that, but what is the right game? There are so many available now I find it very confusing to sort them all out. Point me in the right direction and I will go there.
on april elder scrolls online will be released, check it out. P2play though but i think not expensive

Um, no, the quest description actually contains the word "murder" and "frame" It is these acts that are incompatible with my character's alignment and not the nature of the victim. Had to abandon the entire quest line for that reason.

eberron is different. Not rare to find a LG red dragon. If you read the whole pack and check a bit about droaam, these minotaurs are evil. And you're attacking a entire city of evil minos, that sound pretty heroic to me, not evil. I mean 1 to 6 against many, and being in a fantasy world where things like "good" and "evil" are pretty defined (even though eberron is the most simillar to the real world) i think "the end justifies the way to do it" in this case. (sorry, i don't speak english as my native language but i guess you get the say)

How do you know it is about getting more money and not just about getting rid of the remaining subscribers?
everything it's always about getting more money xD

You have it backwards. GS bows are one of the most common bows in the game world and "Giant's Roar" is one of the rarest. Besides the GR bow is one of the very few with flappy thingies at the end of the limbs.

not agree, giant's roar is fairly common i've had like 4 of those, and crafting my GS bow took longer. The only thing i can agree with is that you know you'll get the GS sooner or later but takes many shroud runs. Even though is true you might never get the pull for giant's roar, you need really bad luck

--

harry-pancreas

01-21-2014, 10:44 AM

you spending TP to get daily gold rolls?

nah i don't use the pw2 system, just saying you can

harry-pancreas

01-21-2014, 10:45 AM

I am for removing all hirleings

same. but won't happen

Waaye

01-21-2014, 10:33 PM

[...]Still wrong, i'm not fast, [...] put me somewhat in the middle[...]
It is not about speed but about objectives. If a player's primary objectives are something other than completing the quests for the first time then they are a meta-gamers. Even if your playing speed is only two or three times mine that is still waaye too much of a difference to overcome.

Here is an example of what typically happens when I group with meta-gamers. It is based on a true story with minor changes to protect the guilty:

BEGIN SCRIPT -

After ten, or so, solid minutes of my chasing blue dots on the mini-map and occasionally frantically mashing buttons we come to the end of the quest. The boss goes down in a few moments and we have the treasure. Here is the conversation that follows:

Group leader - "Did you get it?"

Me - "Get What?"

Group leader - "The SAUR aka Stupendous Amulet of Underwear Removal."

Me - "Yes, but I was going to sell it because it is L20 and I'm L10 and have little storage space.

Group leader - "KEEP IT! It is an ultra-rare drop and is the only thing that can remove the shorts from an end-boss and make it vulnerable to a Barbarian's wedgies."

Me - "How can removing its underwear possibly make it vulnerable to "wedgies"?

Group leader - "This is an MMO not an RPG, if you want realism go play Elders' Scroll! PM me later and I will help you fix your build."

Me - "Okay, I will put the SAUR in the bank. Thanks for advice."

The group disbands.

Update: By the time I reached L12 a game patch rendered wedgies ineffective making the SAUR almost worthless. Had to pawn it for about an eighth of the list price because there were no bids at the auctions and I needed the space.

- END SCRIPT

[...]go normal then hard then group[...]
Not possible for me. I have never even seen a quester's rogue that was anywhere near my level. Rogues are always the alts of meta-gamers and guaranteed to go at least three times too fast for me to follow. My best option is to buy rogue contracts.

[...]usually with some slowie friends as i am[...]
Waait a minnut...you just said your speed is "in the middle". You people don't even know the meaning of the word "slow". My performance is always in the top 5% of greatest total time taken to complete quests and usually in the top 1%. That's Stanine 9 performance! Even if you played the written rules-based game you are still only going to be Stanine 7 at the highest. On your worst day you could not possibly match my speed so stop pretending that you can.

[...]I'm sorry your funds are limited[...]
Don't worry abou it because 99% of people in the real world have limited funds especially when it comes to luxury items like entertainment. The up front cost of expansions does not bother me but the hidden cost of all the "horse armor" needed to finish it does.

[...]it's always about getting more money[...]
This reminds me of a funny true story. A couple of years ago our local fair was suffering from low attendance due to the weather. The local newpaper published an interview with a vendor that had been selling smoked beef sandwiches at the fair. He said that business was so slow that he had to raise prices by a dollar (from $4.50 to $5.50) to compensate and then another fifty cents later on when business had declined even further. By the end sales had been so poor that he wound up throwing out a lot of beef and made no profit at all. Poor stupid man, but does it remind you of anything?

harry-pancreas

01-22-2014, 08:36 AM

It is not about speed but about objectives. If a player's primary objectives are something other than completing the quests for the first time then they are a meta-gamers. Even if your playing speed is only two or three times mine that is still waaye too much of a difference to overcome.

Here is an example of what typically happens when I group with meta-gamers. It is based on a true story with minor changes to protect the guilty:

BEGIN SCRIPT -

After ten, or so, solid minutes of my chasing blue dots on the mini-map and occasionally frantically mashing buttons we come to the end of the quest. The boss goes down in a few moments and we have the treasure. Here is the conversation that follows:

Group leader - "Did you get it?"

Me - "Get What?"

Group leader - "The SAUR aka Stupendous Amulet of Underwear Removal."

Me - "Yes, but I was going to sell it because it is L20 and I'm L10 and have little storage space.

Group leader - "KEEP IT! It is an ultra-rare drop and is the only thing that can remove the shorts from an end-boss and make it vulnerable to a Barbarian's wedgies."

Me - "How can removing its underwear possibly make it vulnerable to "wedgies"?

Group leader - "This is an MMO not an RPG, if you want realism go play Elders' Scroll! PM me later and I will help you fix your build."

Me - "Okay, I will put the SAUR in the bank. Thanks for advice."

The group disbands.

Update: By the time I reached L12 a game patch rendered wedgies ineffective making the SAUR almost worthless. Had to pawn it for about an eighth of the list price because there were no bids at the auctions and I needed the space.

- END SCRIPT

huh ? In PnP i've saved many items and stuff i didn't know what they were or for an absent member of the usual group many times. I even saved a one of those tomes giving xp in AD&D (dang don't remember the name, those for good, neutral and evil wizards) for later use. Even saved valuable items no one of us in the group could use cause of the value, cause it could be useful later. That's not meta-gaming, that's not being silly lol

Same here saved some gems i didn't know what they were and they ended up being needed for flagging in Reaver's reach

Oh and i have no time to fix your build, neither want to create no brainers

Not possible for me. I have never even seen a quester's rogue that was anywhere near my level. Rogues are always the alts of meta-gamers and guaranteed to go at least three times too fast for me to follow. My best option is to buy rogue contracts.
Look better. Post your own lfm. Talk to people, there are plenty of persons playing one character with forgotten alts they can pull up for help, and they will do it gladly.
I had you're same attitude "oh you all fast people who don't understand pnp" blah blah. Trust me, you will meet no one. You're telling me you cannot take 1 "fast" run after you did a normal/hard slow, and prefer using bots ? I feel sorry, i really do. I'd be playing baldru's gate II for the 51th time in that case to be honest.

And you're best option is to learn how to bypass the trap. Looks like you always had a rogue in your pnp groups or a super "nice" DM who didn't put traps when the rogue wasnt there, or maybe he was letting you guys hire a NPC rogue...

Waait a minnut...you just said your speed is "in the middle". You people don't even know the meaning of the word "slow". My performance is always in the top 5% of greatest total time taken to complete quests and usually in the top 1%. That's Stanine 9 performance! Even if you played the written rules-based game you are still only going to be Stanine 7 at the highest. On your worst day you could not possibly match my speed so stop pretending that you can.
I'm adaptable. And you dont know me...matching your speed means walk in sneak without striding gear ? I can, i did it and i'm sure i did it a lot more than you (because i play since a while. As i said before i did that from level 1 to 28, every friggin quest in the game except a few, and i mean less than 10 for sure. And yes even the walk-ups in threnal, quests no one is doing anymore cause they're outdated. (i have skipped part of the storm horns, and there are a little amount of quests where you just can't go slow cause you die. I'd name one but i don't want to spoil the game for you. And i snuck many quests not just once but a lot of times to help friends to sniff the flowers around too.).
Matching your speed means sneaking to see what's in the next room and then thinking or discussing how to approach a fight for 20 minutes ? I can, i did it, probably more times than you.
Matchin your speed means taking 3 to 4 hours to do Threnal on elite with 3 persons, one of them a level 7 monk ? (btw, it was one of the level 10's on elite, so level 12 quest. I can't remember the name but is the last one of the west ruins. And yes i love that pack neat story)
And i said i'm in the middle with the meta-gaming, speed depends on my mood and the group i'm playing with, because this is an MMO so i play with people (no bots) and i don't try to convince them my style is better. I play with people who adapts to the group, as i do, and bail if they don't (zergers OR 1 super slow person staying always behind when the rest is going toghether with average speed. I play with people who play in group, wether is fast or slow. That's the true D&D spirit in my opinion, friends laughs and pizza)

Stop pretending you're the only one super pnp-friendly mega slow player, cause you aren't that special. There is a good amount of people doing that but if you don't open yourself to meeting people you will never know it by yourself.
Want an example of slowness ? One of my bests friends is playing a cleric, he's level 22. I met him when he was level 6 and that was exactly a year ago, january 2013. Can you imaging how slow he is ? I bet you don't
A person who says "this is my first run of this quest, so i'll be talking to every squirrel in there". Well, i joined that run (and many with the same style). Oh and trust me, we talked to every squirrel in there. Oh and he doesnt play every day, but fairly often, and that character only.

Don't worry abou it because 99% of people in the real world have limited funds especially when it comes to luxury items like entertainment. The up front cost of expansions does not bother me but the hidden cost of all the "horse armor" needed to finish it does.
meh i dont worry about you nor care, no idea who you are IRL, maybe you live in a mansion and you are just cheap (i dont think so, but who knows) but i'm still sorry since it looks like is not letting you enjoy the game

This reminds me of a funny true story. A couple of years ago our local fair was suffering from low attendance due to the weather. The local newpaper published an interview with a vendor that had been selling smoked beef sandwiches at the fair. He said that business was so slow that he had to raise prices by a dollar (from $4.50 to $5.50) to compensate and then another fifty cents later on when business had declined even further. By the end sales had been so poor that he wound up throwing out a lot of beef and made no profit at all. Poor stupid man, but does it remind you of anything?

Where i live people would bought 2 just in case prices raise again (not i, btw), so no, reminds me nothing. It's always about getting more money, wether it works or not is not the point.

Waaye

01-23-2014, 01:49 AM

[...]huh?[...]
The script is about other people and not you. The point is that meta-gamers are questing for gear. They aren't even questing for gear to go questing because they have already done all the quests several times. To me repeating the same quest over and over just to get that ultra-rare drop is no fun at all. Nerfing the hard-won item in a later patch only makes things worse.

Constant MMO references are also somewhat confusing. DDO allows six in a group or twelve in a raid and not the hundreds or thousands that the word "massive" suggests. What does MMO actually mean anyway and why is it so often given as an excuse for every problem in DDO?

[...]Oh and i have no time to fix your build, neither want to create no brainers[...]
Again, I was not talking about you but go look at most threads in this forum or even posts in this thread and see how fast they spin off on tangents. I started this thread to repeat what I thought was a good suggestion made by another poster back in 2011. Rogue hirelings for platinum would help me greatly and partially address the common complaint of "elitism" in DDO. It did not take long after creating the thread for posters to criticize my build, gear, and making other off-topic remarks. Some even made ad hominem arguments against me personally and not just my Ranger.

Adopting that suggestion from 2011 should help to retain some newcomers no matter how hard some meta-gamers seem to be working to chase them away. FranOhmsford even listed the best rogue contracts to make available for platinum. Of course it would help even more to always have questers and meta-gamers in different instances but that is not as simple to do as making a few rogue hirelings available for platinum.

[...]Look better. Post your own lfm.[...]
My Elf does not look all that bad but as I said "the soap is a lie" so cleaning him up is not an option. Posting an LFM probably won't help because virtually all comers will be meta-gamers that think taking twenty minutes to finish a long quest is going "slow". From their point of view it is true because "fast" for meta-gamers would be closer to six minutes. Even a "slow" twenty minutes is still six times faster than my "normal" 120 minutes. What I need is to group with other questers on their first time through. Sadly, there are almost no newcomers left on Thelanis to see my LFM so that leaves rogue hirelings as the next best choice.

[...]And you're best option is to learn how to bypass the trap.[...]
No, in my day you played what you rolled and my Elf Ranger will never be able to disarm traps. Nor will I re-roll him with a +20 wooden thingie to add the ability. There is nothing wrong with my character's build or his gear and he does just fine solo if he has a rogue hireling with him. The issue is not if those hirelings should be available, which they have been for years, but if they should cost real money or virtual platinum.

[...]you aren't that special.[...]
Exactly right, and that is another very good reason not to group with others. Give me rogue hirelings for platinum and I will go play in my own instance and never bother anyone else. That's a promise.

[...]Want an example of slowness ?[...]he's level 22[...]was level 6[...]a year ago[...]Can you imaging how slow he is ? I bet you don't[...]
Bet I do! My current and first character has just made L12 after 10 months of adventuring. That is about 1.2 levels per month. Your quick friend did 16 levels in 12 months which is a blistering rate of 1.33 levels per month. How could I possibly keep up with a speed-demon like that? By the way, I never said I was slowest but only in the top 5% of slowness. The top 1% must be far slower than I. None of this matters, though, because speed matching only matters in groups of players. After being dragged through quests at five times my normal speed in 100% of the groups I've been in there is no point in trying to group with other players again. So I won't group but will use hirelings that can always match my speed when and if I can afford to buy their contracts.

[...]meh i dont worry about you nor care[...]
Wasn't talking about me but the vast majority of people that have limited funds. Rich one percenters have always been able to take five hirelings and a pile of tasty cakes on each and every quest. They also have real nice gear. That doesn't mean that poor people shouldn't be able to hire a rogue too.

Where i live people would bought 2 just in case prices raise again (not i, btw), so no, reminds me nothing. It's always about getting more money, wether it works or not is not the point.
Poor stupid man raised his prices while his competitors lowered theirs. The competitors settled for less profit but stupid's greed caused him to suffer a substantial loss. In subsequent years the competitors returned to the fair but poor stupid never came back. Wonder what happened to him.

Did you know shards stopped dropping in silver daily rolls a long time ago? That significantly increased the real-world cost of rogue hireling contracts for f2p and Premium players. Many players left and never returned. Wonder what happened to them and if having rogue contracts for platinum might help to bring some of them back.

harry-pancreas

01-23-2014, 08:28 AM

The script is about other people and not you. The point is that meta-gamers are questing for gear. They aren't even questing for gear to go questing because they have already done all the quests several times. To me repeating the same quest over and over just to get that ultra-rare drop is no fun at all. Nerfing the hard-won item in a later patch only makes things worse.

Constant MMO references are also somewhat confusing. DDO allows six in a group or twelve in a raid and not the hundreds or thousands that the word "massive" suggests. What does MMO actually mean anyway and why is it so often given as an excuse for every problem in DDO?
i know you wasnt talking about me with the plot, but you did call me meta gamer, so you actually were doing it ;)

Again, I was not talking about you but go look at most threads in this forum or even posts in this thread and see how fast they spin off on tangents. I started this thread to repeat what I thought was a good suggestion made by another poster back in 2011. Rogue hirelings for platinum would help me greatly and partially address the common complaint of "elitism" in DDO. It did not take long after creating the thread for posters to criticize my build, gear, and making other off-topic remarks. Some even made ad hominem arguments against me personally and not just my Ranger.

Adopting that suggestion from 2011 should help to retain some newcomers no matter how hard some meta-gamers seem to be working to chase them away. FranOhmsford even listed the best rogue contracts to make available for platinum. Of course it would help even more to always have questers and meta-gamers in different instances but that is not as simple to do as making a few rogue hirelings available for platinum.

that's my point - i'm a jerk and i don't want new comers who need hirelings, hence it's a terrible suggestion
My Elf does not look all that bad but as I said "the soap is a lie" so cleaning him up is not an option. Posting an LFM probably won't help because virtually all comers will be meta-gamers that think taking twenty minutes to finish a long quest is going "slow". From their point of view it is true because "fast" for meta-gamers would be closer to six minutes. Even a "slow" twenty minutes is still six times faster than my "normal" 120 minutes. What I need is to group with other questers on their first time through. Sadly, there are almost no newcomers left on Thelanis to see my LFM so that leaves rogue hirelings as the next best choice.
you would be surprised about what you can find. And lfm has a portion for a text where you could put "newcomers only" or whatever. Sniffing flowers is the common term and everyone will understand

No, in my day you played what you rolled and my Elf Ranger will never be able to disarm traps. Nor will I re-roll him with a +20 wooden thingie to add the ability. There is nothing wrong with my character's build or his gear and he does just fine solo if he has a rogue hireling with him. The issue is not if those hirelings should be available, which they have been for years, but if they should cost real money or virtual platinum.
i'm NOT talking about going rogue. I've said "bypass" and not "disable". Funny how you skipped my comment of the DM in pnp, no rogues and traps. Maybe you were the one directing an puting no traps for your players when they were lacking of rogues.
Using hires is not "solo" btw. Solo is, well... solo.
Exactly right, and that is another very good reason not to group with others. Give me rogue hirelings for platinum and I will go play in my own instance and never bother anyone else. That's a promise.

there is no good reason to not group with other is an MMO, except situational ones (if the situation last months is more like a rule than an exception) plus you're making no sense. Not special then can't group with others ? Looks like you feel the opposite way really ("oh i'm so slow not meta gamer and special, i can't find my match". BLAH)
and i wouldnt say you "bother" really. Would you be bothered if you were the rogue and someone asks for help ?
Bet I do! My current and first character has just made L12 after 10 months of adventuring. That is about 1.2 levels per month. Your quick friend did 16 levels in 12 months which is a blistering rate of 1.33 levels per month. How could I possibly keep up with a speed-demon like that? By the way, I never said I was slowest but only in the top 5% of slowness. The top 1% must be far slower than I. None of this matters, though, because speed matching only matters in groups of players. After being dragged through quests at five times my normal speed in 100% of the groups I've been in there is no point in trying to group with other players again. So I won't group but will use hirelings that can always match my speed when and if I can afford to buy their contracts.

do you play mostly every day, around 5 hours ? I still bet you can't imaging...or maybe you just examine every barrel for 5 minutes hoping to find...er...idk, more squirrels ?

Wasn't talking about me but the vast majority of people that have limited funds. Rich one percenters have always been able to take five hirelings and a pile of tasty cakes on each and every quest. They also have real nice gear. That doesn't mean that poor people shouldn't be able to hire a rogue too.
poor ? playing an MMO ? Don't make me laugh, i see starving skinny childs sleeping in the street every day going to work. Please be respectful. If you think poor people can afford a comp and internet connection, you have no idea what poor people is.

Poor stupid man raised his prices while his competitors lowered theirs. The competitors settled for less profit but stupid's greed caused him to suffer a substantial loss. In subsequent years the competitors returned to the fair but poor stupid never came back. Wonder what happened to him.
not sure where you going with this and the p2w giving more money. Turbine did not raise the prices, nor raised they production costs. Dev's salaries are probably the same and they just added new stuff.
Did you know shards stopped dropping in silver daily rolls a long time ago? That significantly increased the real-world cost of rogue hireling contracts for f2p and Premium players. Many players left and never returned. Wonder what happened to them and if having rogue contracts for platinum might help to bring some of them back.
oh i know, i won 100 once, was fun. I'm glad they don't drop anymore that was too much. What you should have done, IMHO, is to save some (for posting free) and start selling the items you don't want in the astral auction house; problem solved.

--

Waaye

01-24-2014, 01:10 PM

[...] so you actually were doing it [...]
Okay, maybe I was referring to your playing style indirectly but does it resemble the remark? Does your character go questing for gear and do you refer to DDO as an MMO in the game or on the forums? [There may not actually be a SAUR item but would you believe there is a Nude Bomb?]

[...] i don't want new comers who need hirelings, [...]
Well you got your wish, new players of any sort are rare in DDO these days. Many posts in several threads on the DDO forums seem to be about driving new people away from the game. Even suggesting a minor change like rogues for platinum that will harm no one and could help DDO prosper is met with attacks on the original poster. Why is that if we are all just DDO fans trying to have some fun?

Thou doth protest the hirelings too much, methinks.

[...] lfm has a portion for a text where you could put "newcomers only" or whatever. [...]
There are almost no slower-playing newcomers to see the LFM. If there was a special instance for beginners it would be almost empty most of the time. Tried grouping a half dozen times and every single time the pace was waaye too fast for me. Meta-gamers usually quest at several times my normal speed. When I did group with them I had no recollection of where we had been or what we did there. The only way I know it wasn't all a dream is the "SAUR" or other unique item that remained in my inventory.

Whatever those quests were they sure weren't fun, at least not for me. Back in the day when I had some shards and quests were less nasty taking only Burak and Riana on quests really was fun. Those days are gone but could return if I could only buy rogue contracts for platinum..

[...] there is no good reason to not group [...]
There are several good reasons for me not to group. The odds are against players ever finding a good match. First the players must all be on the same server. Then being in the top 5% of slowness means about a one in twenty chance of finding someone that goes about the same speed. If those things match then they also have to be the right level, with the right skills, and get along well with each other. The server, speed, level, skills, and personality must all match for players to be compatible. Thats like winning a lottery and not a LFM request!

Besides, why should I be holding any group of gamers back when I can adventure just fine in my own isolated instance with hirelings? All I need is rogue hireling for platinum and my solo party will be balanced.

[...] poor ? playing an MMO ? [...]
Relatively poorer people then. Like the ones that can't afford to buy very many rogue contracts for TP or shards.

[...] not sure where you going with this [...]
Poor Mr. Stupid's greed caused him to raise prices and lose money instead of making a profit. Turbine absolutely did raise the real cost of rogue hirelings for f2p and Premium players. I know because I are one.

The current cost of rogue contracts is clear, 40 TP for one hour's work from Shadow. What is not clear is how many rogue contracts will be needed to complete all of the quests in an adventure pack. That makes accurate budgeting impossible and is one of the reasons most reviewers now say DDO is "p2w".

Many other game companies sell game coin for cash but they also pay players game coin for viewing ads. Those games are called "f2p" even though they are actually sponsored to play or "s2p" as I call it. Advertisers paying companies for access to a viewing audence is a simple concept. Radio and television have used a similar scheme for several decades with good results.

Because some competing game companies have lowered their prices by going "s2p" most "p2w" titles are now declining and may not be back next year. p2w companies that raise prices still further to make up for lost revenue will probably only hasten the decline as it did for poor Mr. Stupid. On the other hand, lowering the real cost of the game by doing things like making rogue contracts available for platinum should help to slow the decline or maybe even stop it.. Do you see where I going now?

[...] start selling the items you don't want in the astral auction house; problem solved. [...]
In the past two months out of the dozens of items I have posted on the Shard Exchange only three have sold; Mummy's wrap for 3, Drow Leather for 3, and an exceptional Khopesh for 3. Nothing else would sell no matter how good it was. That is nine shards in two months time and that will buy two one hour Shadow contracts with one shard left over. Those two contracts could be used up in as little as a couple hours of adventuring. Of course more one-hour contracts are available at two for a real-world dollar for those who would spend the money. Same problem as before, no rogue contracts available for platinum.

harry-pancreas

01-27-2014, 07:48 AM

Okay, maybe I was referring to your playing style indirectly but does it resemble the remark? Does your character go questing for gear and do you refer to DDO as an MMO in the game or on the forums? [There may not actually be a SAUR item but would you believe there is a Nude Bomb?]

Well you got your wish, new players of any sort are rare in DDO these days. Many posts in several threads on the DDO forums seem to be about driving new people away from the game. Even suggesting a minor change like rogues for platinum that will harm no one and could help DDO prosper is met with attacks on the original poster. Why is that if we are all just DDO fans trying to have some fun?

Thou doth protest the hirelings too much, methinks.
.

ok i didn't even read the rest, because i didn't attack you, at least not before you did tbh. I even tried to help till you pulled this attitude "you're a meta gamer and you can't quest with me, blah blah blah". Fine, whatever.

Soloists drive me crazy (and i solo a lot, but i prefer to be with people), i try to be nice and helpful with everyone (with the kind of help they need and ask) but why would i want new people to play with, if they're soloing with hires and the put the style over the company ? Why are they even playing an MMO, or this one in particular ?
I hate zerging and i have zerger friends, cause they're nice people, once in a while i go zerg with them for a few quests, we have a good time, not a big deal. It drives me mental when a new player comes with this attiture "hey, you're all wrong" and then "the community" (i agree, not the best one) is the one to be blamed because the new player left. He left either cause the game was too hard or he didn't like it, period.

I didn't mean to attack you but really, you're being too close minded.

And sometimes i metagame, last times pretty often, but it drives me mental when people assume that's my only way. This is a rich game (in content) and it's worth to explore every part of it, IMHO, even the "BYOH KNOW IT" lfm's with a leader that's a jerk. Just saying.

harry-pancreas

01-27-2014, 08:11 AM

And now i'm gonna answer you, to be polite (*tries to keep it calm*)

Okay, maybe I was referring to your playing style indirectly but does it resemble the remark? Does your character go questing for gear and do you refer to DDO as an MMO in the game or on the forums? [There may not actually be a SAUR item but would you believe there is a Nude Bomb?]

OF course i go questing for gear. After i did the quest a few times i let myself meta game and get the gear i will need to do the next "real run" (aka pnp-friendly style) without bots, without store items and all that **** (i don't usually use store items except, again, for something specific. Once i forgot my spell components twice, i had some point for favor and bought omnispell dust. OMG what a big deal)

Well you got your wish, new players of any sort are rare in DDO these days. Many posts in several threads on the DDO forums seem to be about driving new people away from the game. Even suggesting a minor change like rogues for platinum that will harm no one and could help DDO prosper is met with attacks on the original poster. Why is that if we are all just DDO fans trying to have some fun?

Thou doth protest the hirelings too much, methinks.
You take it to personal. You want rogue hires for plat, i want all hires out. You post a suggestion in the forums, i keep the "real" feedback (some want, some not). Live with it.
Oh and i see lot of new people, don't listen too much to forums, not always reflect reality (example: "OMG we need to buff pure classes, no one plays them!!!!!!!!----- Well i'm tired of seeing lvl 20 fighters, clerics, wizards, sorcerers, monks, favored souls xD)
There are almost no slower-playing newcomers to see the LFM. If there was a special instance for beginners it would be almost empty most of the time. Tried grouping a half dozen times and every single time the pace was waaye too fast for me. Meta-gamers usually quest at several times my normal speed. When I did group with them I had no recollection of where we had been or what we did there. The only way I know it wasn't all a dream is the "SAUR" or other unique item that remained in my inventory.
Whatever those quests were they sure weren't fun, at least not for me. Back in the day when I had some shards and quests were less nasty taking only Burak and Riana on quests really was fun. Those days are gone but could return if I could only buy rogue contracts for platinum..

That's true, and the same happened to me for a long time. Then i met some friends with my style, and, do you know how ?
LFM's. And half docen of times you say ? I think the best person with my style i met was in the 99th time i joined an lfm.
And i agree, the arcade-mode in DDO is no fun, at least not till you have the quest in your memory (and it would be still more fun to be amnesiac, forget it an re-crawl, but we're humans and we remember).
Is it supossed to be fun when you use you're name instead of the word "way" ? "lol" ?

There are several good reasons for me not to group. The odds are against players ever finding a good match. First the players must all be on the same server. Then being in the top 5% of slowness means about a one in twenty chance of finding someone that goes about the same speed. If those things match then they also have to be the right level, with the right skills, and get along well with each other. The server, speed, level, skills, and personality must all match for players to be compatible. Thats like winning a lottery and not a LFM request!

Don't be so exigent, it's a game.
In the level, right skills, blah blah blah. What if you try to meet nice PEOPLE, however they play ? You will be surprised how much you can have if you open you're mind.

Besides, why should I be holding any group of gamers back when I can adventure just fine in my own isolated instance with hirelings? All I need is rogue hireling for platinum and my solo party will be balanced.
Because is an MMO. Turbine should really make a stand-alone copy of the game to play offline...maybe we would get an empty who pannel but no lag at least...

Relatively poorer people then. Like the ones that can't afford to buy very many rogue contracts for TP or shards.
We have a computer and net connection. We're rich. Take a look to africa, asia, Haiti, Zuriname (not that i expect you to know where some of those places are), heck, most of the world...

Poor Mr. Stupid's greed caused him to raise prices and lose money instead of making a profit. Turbine absolutely did raise the real cost of rogue hirelings for f2p and Premium players. I know because I are one.

The current cost of rogue contracts is clear, 40 TP for one hour's work from Shadow. What is not clear is how many rogue contracts will be needed to complete all of the quests in an adventure pack. That makes accurate budgeting impossible and is one of the reasons most reviewers now say DDO is "p2w".
contracts needed to complete any quest (save 5-6 as much): 0
I'm not exceptional (i'm actually pretty bad) so if i did it, you can do it.

Many other game companies sell game coin for cash but they also pay players game coin for viewing ads. Those games are called "f2p" even though they are actually sponsored to play or "s2p" as I call it. Advertisers paying companies for access to a viewing audence is a simple concept. Radio and television have used a similar scheme for several decades with good results.

And how that's not meta gaming ? I see adds, my character gets plat. Sure, whatever...

Because some competing game companies have lowered their prices by going "s2p" most "p2w" titles are now declining and may not be back next year. p2w companies that raise prices still further to make up for lost revenue will probably only hasten the decline as it did for poor Mr. Stupid. On the other hand, lowering the real cost of the game by doing things like making rogue contracts available for platinum should help to slow the decline or maybe even stop it.. Do you see where I going now?

DDO is fine, only thing it needs to retain new players is to slow down with the self-healing and solo-friendly (like rogue hirelings) so we see lfm's back up again. Check the who pannel and check how many people is there, and how many people is in party. And this is why rogues for plat would actually harm everyone, while it's helping just a few people.

In the past two months out of the dozens of items I have posted on the Shard Exchange only three have sold; Mummy's wrap for 3, Drow Leather for 3, and an exceptional Khopesh for 3. Nothing else would sell no matter how good it was. That is nine shards in two months time and that will buy two one hour Shadow contracts with one shard left over. Those two contracts could be used up in as little as a couple hours of adventuring. Of course more one-hour contracts are available at two for a real-world dollar for those who would spend the money. Same problem as before, no rogue contracts available for platinum.
Sell better stuff then, of course the mummy wrapings will give you nothing. And gotcha, how's that not meta-gaming ? Never seen an auction house in pnp.

cheers.

Waaye

01-27-2014, 12:48 PM

cheers.
Okay bye.

Irenae

02-11-2014, 06:58 PM

I have a better idea, permanent hirelings. Of Course I would barely even pay plat for any hireling, let alone RWM. So I just skip hirelings entirely, unless needed for soloing a quest. It's not like they are needed most of the time anyway. I like most people refuse to pay RWM for temporary hirelings that go away quickly and I even feel my Plat is better spent elsewhere. I guess if you have TP from earned favor it might work a couple of times but that's it and is not a permanent solution. So maybe the answer is get a friend to play with who has the rogue skills you need. Because I don't think they are going to listen to the obvious answer that Rogue hirelings should be available for plat.

biggin

02-12-2014, 11:27 AM

Fedora1

02-12-2014, 11:58 AM

No.

If you can't get around traps on Norm then the problem isn't the traps. If you absolutely refuse to either build a PC with HP's, evasion or the least amount of gear then that's fine..... you just need to learn how to play better. A vet can run naked through elite if need be. If you can't complete on Norm or Solo then the problem lie's with you, not with what you can buy or not buy. This isn't Little League, not everyone gets a trophy for sitting down in the outfield and picking their nose.

Nice.

The OP is self-depricating. He already stated he can't play, he is slow, hits every trap, etc. He admitted all the stuff you attempted to insult him with.
His argument is simple - you can get hireling that heal for plat, why is a rogue any different?

You don't have to agree but please don't repeat things the OP has already plead guilty to.

(Next excuse - the thread is too long I can't be bothered to read it).

biggin

02-12-2014, 04:56 PM

Nice.

The OP is self-depricating. He already stated he can't play, he is slow, hits every trap, etc. He admitted all the stuff you attempted to insult him with.
His argument is simple - you can get hireling that heal for plat, why is a rogue any different?

You don't have to agree but please don't repeat things the OP has already plead guilty to.

(Next excuse - the thread is too long I can't be bothered to read it).

Oh, I read the whole thing. The reason you can get a hireling that heals for plat IMO is because it is no different then drinking pots, only faster and cheaper. I wasn't trying to insult him. He insults himself enough. But just because he refuses to build a viable character or learn how to play the game is obviously of no consequence to any of you. If he had trouble finding his way through quests should we then give him portables holes so he can walk through the walls?

The lower quests are trials so to speak. You learn, you progress, you get rewarded. I'm sorry if he is old and has a slow computer. That is still no excuse. He has made plenty of references to his ranger. Why not put in 2 rogue levels? He could easily hit every trap himself with very little in the way of gear. He could go as slow as he wanted and traps would become a non-issue. The devs have put plenty in place for a person to either survive, remove or get around traps. About 95% of them can be timed, it just takes practice. How does a person who can't survive a trap on Norm think that he would or even should continue to progress? That is a huge red flag that you've done something wrong. This isn't DDO 2006 where there was no scaling and you spent days getting beat to death in the harbor.

I get what he's saying, but let's just say you could design your own Pac-Man. If he said that yes, he made a Pac-Man that was four times slower than all the ghosts and it couldn't eat the pellets, would we redesign the game or just maybe, possibly, he may want to build a better Pac-Man? And not every quest has these 'impossible' traps. Even myself, a player since the beginning, sometimes eats a trap I've forgotten about, I may roll a 1 and get blasted. My answer isn't to basically make traps null and void, which is what you are asking. I put my big boy pants on, pay my repair bill, go back in and try harder. A person needs to figure these things out. D&D is traditionally a thinking persons game. Let's not turn it into even less of that if possible.

Fedora1

02-12-2014, 05:40 PM

Oh, I read the whole thing. The reason you can get a hireling that heals for plat IMO is because it is no different then drinking pots, only faster and cheaper.

You can't raise yourself from the dead or attack while drinking a pot. Big big difference.

I wasn't trying to insult him. He insults himself enough. But just because he refuses to build a viable character or learn how to play the game is obviously of no consequence to any of you. If he had trouble finding his way through quests should we then give him portables holes so he can walk through the walls?

You did pretty much insult him.
He did not ask for portable holes to walk through walls. He asked for a rogue hireling to help with traps. Which is already available - for real money.

I'm sorry if he is old and has a slow computer. That is still no excuse.

Excuse for what? Asking to make a rogue hire available for plat?

He has made plenty of references to his ranger. Why not put in 2 rogue levels? He could easily hit every trap himself with very little in the way of gear. He could go as slow as he wanted and traps would become a non-issue.

That's a good suggestion. Better than "You suck at playing. Learn to not suck."

The devs have put plenty in place for a person to either survive, remove or get around traps. About 95% of them can be timed, it just takes practice. How does a person who can't survive a trap on Norm think that he would or even should continue to progress? That is a huge red flag that you've done something wrong. This isn't DDO 2006 where there was no scaling and you spent days getting beat to death in the harbor.

Now you're back to how bad he sucks, and how dare he ask for a rogue hire be made available for plat.

I get what he's saying,

Do you? He is saying that RIGHT NOW you can get a rogue hireling, but you have to pay cash. Why? All other hires are available for plat, why the hold out on rogues? IMO a cleric hire is FAR more valuable than a rogue for the occasional traps. Clerics are available for plat.

but let's just say you could design your own Pac-Man. If he said that yes, he made a Pac-Man that was four times slower than all the ghosts and it couldn't eat the pellets, would we redesign the game or just maybe, possibly, he may want to build a better Pac-Man?

See, you don't really get what he's saying. He is not asking for a game to be redesigned.

And not every quest has these 'impossible' traps.

I didn't see where he said there were impossible traps in every quest.

Even myself, a player since the beginning,

Gosh I couldn't have guessed. You go on and on about how this is easy, that's easy, I did it, and therefore don't move my cheese. Tell me how a rogue hire for plat would affect you? Maybe it would make a quest easier for someone without your l33t mario skillz and you would lose some bragging rights? I don't know.

My answer isn't to basically make traps null and void, which is what you are asking.

Oh really? A rogue hire (which is available right now for real $$) is making traps null and void? So a cleric for hire makes damage null and void too, right?

I put my big boy pants on,

Typical comment when trying to insult others.

D&D is traditionally a thinking persons game. Let's not turn it into even less of that if possible.

Its a video game really.

Qhualor

02-12-2014, 05:56 PM

whether you are a good player or not, a new player or vet or whatever the case may be, there is no reason to not have rogue hires for plat in the game also. people use them for xp or to unlock chests with named loot or to get secret door optionals or because they die when the wind blows. who cares if you NEED to learn to play and survive running or getting around traps. if someone NEEDS a rogue for traps to get by them than they probably NEED a cleric to babysit them and raise them from the dead too which means they have to buy a hire from the store anyways. with all this logic of rogue hires shouldn't be available for plat in the game and people should learn to play or build better characters, might as well start charging real live players for joining groups with specific skills than.

biggin

02-12-2014, 06:17 PM

You can't raise yourself from the dead or attack while drinking a pot. Big big difference.

You did pretty much insult him.
He did not ask for portable holes to walk through walls. He asked for a rogue hireling to help with traps. Which is already available - for real money.

Excuse for what? Asking to make a rogue hire available for plat?

That's a good suggestion. Better than "You suck at playing. Learn to not suck."

Now you're back to how bad he sucks, and how dare he ask for a rogue hire be made available for plat.

Do you? He is saying that RIGHT NOW you can get a rogue hireling, but you have to pay cash. Why? All other hires are available for plat, why the hold out on rogues? IMO a cleric hire is FAR more valuable than a rogue for the occasional traps. Clerics are available for plat.

See, you don't really get what he's saying. He is not asking for a game to be redesigned.

I didn't see where he said there were impossible traps in every quest.

Gosh I couldn't have guessed. You go on and on about how this is easy, that's easy, I did it, and therefore don't move my cheese. Tell me how a rogue hire for plat would affect you? Maybe it would make a quest easier for someone without your l33t mario skillz and you would lose some bragging rights? I don't know.

Oh really? A rogue hire (which is available right now for real $$) is making traps null and void? So a cleric for hire makes damage null and void too, right?

Typical comment when trying to insult others.

Its a video game really.

Nothing I said was insulting unless you take the stance that you will never get better at this game so make it easier. This is not an 'I walked uphill both ways' speech. This is simple mechanics of the game. You need to learn how to play the game. Yes, this is exactly like asking for portable holes to walk through walls. A trap is in essence a wall you either can easily pass 40 different ways or you cannot progress. Now you are asking that for plat people should be able to make all traps null and void. Well, sorry, but I don't think that's good. Why not just put a 'Pay 50 plat, disable all traps' message at zone in? For an extra 50 plat, they can remove all mobs. Maybe have an NPC walk you to the end of the quest?

If you can't learn how to kite mobs as a divine, arcane or ranged player I would not ask that for plat they all get stuck to the floor. Not every quest has a trap. If you can't survive them on Norm then yes, the fault lies with the player, not the mechanics.

biggin

02-12-2014, 06:39 PM

EllisDee37

02-12-2014, 06:49 PM

I dont care. 1st.. 30th... 512th...

there isnt a quest in the game where there is a trap that must be disabled in order to complete the quest.

a first lifer free to play isnt going to be worried about an extra 500 xp from traps...There is very little I worry about regarding traps nowadays, even on a low-reflex non-evasion character. I just time them.

My first couple lives, however, I was completely at the mercy of trappers. Heck, even my evasion alts had issues with traps on elite runs. I remember on my first life being completely stymied by the acid jets in Swiped Signet, if you can believe it. I barely can myself, since it's so trivially easy to drink a jump pot and jump right over them.

New players do not have game knowledge, and the two main ways to deal with traps are 1) have a trapper or 2) have game knowledge. I'm not including high reflex evasion alts, because they do not actually have to deal with traps at all.

Qhualor

02-12-2014, 07:16 PM

So basically your stance is that no matter what, no matter how badly a PC is built, no matter if they don't want to group with people, everyone should be able to complete every quest?

not what i said. i said there is no reason why there shouldn't be rogue hires for plat in game. there is only 1 reason why the heroic rogues are available in the store and we all should know the reason why that is.

biggin

02-12-2014, 07:42 PM

not what i said. i said there is no reason why there shouldn't be rogue hires for plat in game. there is only 1 reason why the heroic rogues are available in the store and we all should know the reason why that is.

No argument here. DDO has made a pay to win model. I don't like it but it is what it is. So, if a player refuses to learn how to play to win then they must pay. It's where my content, bug fixes, etc come from, people who pay for convenience. I mean we aren't talking about soloing EE content on a first life naked toon here. We are talking level 8 quests on Norm. Players somehow figured out for years before we had hirelings how to either bypass or render traps a non issue. I get that the game has moved to make it more solo friendly but at some point a person may have to step back and reevaluate that maybe they may be doing something wrong.

EllisDee37

02-12-2014, 07:45 PM

biggin

02-12-2014, 09:55 PM

How about a compromise: Add rogue hires to the plat vendors for levels 1 to 8 only, or something like that? I agree that traps are an early barrier for new player retention, but also see the merit of the other side of the argument. Maybe just include enough rogue hires for plat to retain new players long enough to get hooked on the game?

I see your point but honestly even if someone is new to the game they should have acquired the favor for 40 TP.

People see posts like mine and think 'elitist jerk'. I'm fine with that. The game used to be much harder and to be honest, before it went F2P, it was dying. They went back to the drawing board and came back with easy buttons. I am not against those if the person pays for them. No one is required to pay to play this game. However, if a person wishes to make the game easier, they should have to pay something into it. It cost money to develop hirelings. It cost money to make the DDO store. They spent money to make money. Now people believe they should be given free passes in quests. Well, I don't think that's good for players, good for the game or good for the longevity we all hope this game continues to have.

Every single player who has ever played this game had to either learn how to play or they quit. New, old, doesn't matter, we all had a learning curve. I remember my first big learning moment. I started playing a cleric because I figured I could stand in the back, watch other players and get a feel for the game. The longer I played the harder it was for me to keep up. I was having all sorts of trouble trying to keep people healed and this was way before you ever saw BYOH type LFM's.

Finally someone had enough. Here's the conversation:

Him: Dude, *** is your problem?
Me:I don't know, having trouble because of having to switch between weapons, potions, scrolls and healing?
Him: Huh?
Me: With only one hotbar I try to scroll with my mouse wheel as fast as I can but I can't keep it straight.
Him: You do know you can have more than one hotbar, right?
Me: How?
Him: Jesus.....see that arrow on the hotbar? Click it.
Me: HOLY SHI.......

I learned something that day that made me a better player and from that point on I loved playing the game. Before that I was constantly frustrated and felt like I kept letting everyone down. Point being is we all start somewhere, it's never easy for anyone, but we learn through our mistakes and we get a sense of accomplishment when we figure these things out....or when the entire party laughs at our noobishness. Either way, DDO has set up a system where you don't have to learn, you can build horrible characters and still be successful in spite of it. But if you do, you have to stick a coin the slot.

Qhualor

02-12-2014, 10:26 PM

I see your point but honestly even if someone is new to the game they should have acquired the favor for 40 TP.

People see posts like mine and think 'elitist jerk'. I'm fine with that. The game used to be much harder and to be honest, before it went F2P, it was dying. They went back to the drawing board and came back with easy buttons. I am not against those if the person pays for them. No one is required to pay to play this game. However, if a person wishes to make the game easier, they should have to pay something into it. It cost money to develop hirelings. It cost money to make the DDO store. They spent money to make money. Now people believe they should be given free passes in quests. Well, I don't think that's good for players, good for the game or good for the longevity we all hope this game continues to have.

Every single player who has ever played this game had to either learn how to play or they quit. New, old, doesn't matter, we all had a learning curve. I remember my first big learning moment. I started playing a cleric because I figured I could stand in the back, watch other players and get a feel for the game. The longer I played the harder it was for me to keep up. I was having all sorts of trouble trying to keep people healed and this was way before you ever saw BYOH type LFM's.

Finally someone had enough. Here's the conversation:

Him: Dude, *** is your problem?
Me:I don't know, having trouble because of having to switch between weapons, potions, scrolls and healing?
Him: Huh?
Me: With only one hotbar I try to scroll with my mouse wheel as fast as I can but I can't keep it straight.
Him: You do know you can have more than one hotbar, right?
Me: How?
Him: Jesus.....see that arrow on the hotbar? Click it.
Me: HOLY SHI.......

I learned something that day that made me a better player and from that point on I loved playing the game. Before that I was constantly frustrated and felt like I kept letting everyone down. Point being is we all start somewhere, it's never easy for anyone, but we learn through our mistakes and we get a sense of accomplishment when we figure these things out....or when the entire party laughs at our noobishness. Either way, DDO has set up a system where you don't have to learn, you can build horrible characters and still be successful in spite of it. But if you do, you have to stick a coin the slot.

you should be happy to hear that hirelings are supposed to be on the table for improvement sometime down the road here according to Producer Rowan.

at one time FVS were store only. now you can buy them from vendors in game too.

the way i see it, whats the difference between a dumb dumb rogue hire that disables the traps, finds the secret doors and picks locks for you and a dumb dumb cleric hire that buffs you (usually just 1, if any), some can give you DVs for more blue bar fun and keeps you healed while you run forward and kill without much worry for your red bar? what Turbine is saying to me is that rogue hires are more profitable for a convenience item by keeping them sold in the store. in all the pug groups i have ever been in since 2009, only 2 times has someone summoned a rogue. if a hire is summoned its 99% of the time a cleric/FVS. i meet very few people that actually buy rogue hires because they think it slows them down, the extra xp isn't worth it and most times there is nothing worth it behind those secret doors.

i honestly don't see much of a difference having a rogue hire in your group or having a real live rogue player in your group and how that can affect the learning curve. the biggest problem with the learning curve in DDO is not making it through traps, its being self sufficient and game knowledge. i think you are confusing learning curve with learning how to set up hot bars and hot keys, which happens to everyone when they are new. i went through the same thing myself until someone told me i could have more than 1 hot bar, i can drag stuff to the hot bar and that i will never have enough AP to get everything on the enhancement list.

player retention is a problem, it seems to me. im a believer that in the low levels it should be a cake walk for veterans and sorta difficult for new players. its more important that they start off trying to figure how to play and get them hooked into liking DDO enough to invest in the game. i think the low levels are just about right with quests like Irestone Inlet and Proof is in the Poison as random quests in the low level range that start to become challenging. by level 8 it should be a steady increase in challenge. by this point they should be getting a better handle on the game and learning to figure out alternative solutions on how to get past traps if there is no trapper.

biggin

02-12-2014, 10:54 PM

Actually I would happy to hear the entire hireling system would be moved to the DDO store. Again, hirelings are not necessary, just a convenience. I think people should pay for that convenience with money. Just a different opinion on the subject and obviously the devs feel more your way then mine. The only exception to this are hireling clerics. One of the biggest gripes vets have with new players is they let themselves die because they don't carry pots. It annoys me when someone joins my group and immediately pops a cleric, but at least it gives them a slightly better way to stay healed and save some plat. I get it. But all a hireling rogue is going to do is take away from one of the core elements of the game (to me). Some quests are designed for balanced parties, says so when you zone into a quest, big writing and all. If you choose not have a balanced party then you need to be prepared to try and outsmart the quest. Paying plat to render a quest harmless is just silly IMO.

EllisDee37

02-13-2014, 02:13 AM

I see your point but honestly even if someone is new to the game they should have acquired the favor for 40 TP. When I was a new player, I spent 30+ minutes in every harbor quest. 40 TP every other quest was unthinkable. I would never have spent TP on them, and I didn't. Instead, on my non-trappers I pugged, waiting for trappers to join.

With the state of the pug scene as it is now, I may have given up.

(Okay, maybe not 30+ minutes in Bringing the Light, but upwards of an hour in many of them. Like Smuggler's Warehouse, Butcher's Path, etc...)

Fedora1

02-13-2014, 05:39 AM

I think people should pay for that convenience with money.

So your answer is learn-to-not-suck or pay-to-not-suck?

As long as you are consistent and say that ALL hires should be store bought I guess I can't fault you. I just disagree. Your stance is basically "everyone should learn to play Mario or they are doing it wrong".

Some quests are designed for balanced parties, says so when you zone into a quest, big writing and all. If you choose not have a balanced party then you need to be prepared to try and outsmart the quest. Paying plat to render a quest harmless is just silly IMO.

The OP's long story in a nutshell is:

1. He does not have the Mario skills needed to avoid traps.
2. He does not PUG due to his self-admitted lack of playing skills that others have.
3. Since you NEED a balanced party for some quests, he would like to hire a rogue for plat, just like you can hire a cleric.

biggin

02-13-2014, 07:16 AM

Exactly Fedora. You have stated before 'it's just a game'. I agree and thinking that possibly a person may want to learn how to play the game is somehow elitist? You think my stance is learn how to play the game or pay not to play the game? YES. Those Mario skills are important. If you don't have Mario skills you can make an evasion toon that doesn't need them. Or a max CON toon that doesn't need them. Or join a group of like minded players so you don't need them. If you flatly refuse to use any of the resources available do I think we need more free resources? No. Yes, I do think that you either need to learn how to play this game, like every other game designed since the history of games or at least pay not to have to learn.

Saying this game is F2P is a misnomer. It's free to try. You can play it for free if you learn the nuances of the game, how favor/TP work and even still it would be hard to keep it completely free. If Turbine has seen a way to make a profit on it then so be it. They don't make money, we don't have a game, it's as simple as that. As discussed, he could easily put in one rogue level, more CON, better equipment, useful evasion, the list goes on and on. If you don't want to use any of the free tools out there then yes, I think you should pay. I as a VIP have bought Epic Hearts. I could continue to farm comms but I pay for the convenience to not have to. Do I think they should be sold for plat even though it would benefit me? No.

Ellis, it's good you spent your time in the quests. However you did not need a rogue hireling to complete any of them. Not by a long shot. Sure, maybe you built an abomination, walked into a trap and died. But hopefully you learned where the trap was, went back in and circumvented it . New players shouldn't be able to complete quests the first time through in every quest. How boring would that be? This is a game that especially to new players have extreme depth and complexity. It's what brings people here. This is not NWO or WOW where you can log on and play for days or weeks before ever dying for the first time. You can easily build a bad PC, you can walk into a trap, you could fall off the walkway that runs from the Korthos zone in point up to the Harbor. When the game went f2p there was a very long suggestion thread about putting handrails on that ramp. I get that sometimes what may seem simple to us may seem extremely difficult to others. But as someone who would like to see this game not just continue but progress I realize that takes money.

doawithlife

02-13-2014, 09:27 AM

Wow lots of people seem to forget, when they played through these quests the first time there were actually low level people to group with. Even with a smaller server population, that population was centered around lvl 8 not lvl 20.
Try getting a group for proof is in the poison now (and yeah you solo that with a 50 hp first life character and no hireling, not to mention no idea of how the quest works and you can't afford tons of heal pots yet).

Seriously, move the entire thing to the marketplace? Yeah that will ensure every new player quits. None will be able to solo far enough to stick with the game, most would quit by about level 4. The few brave enough to group and lucky enough to find a group. They tend to get verbally abused by the older players. So the new players end up soloing or quitting.
Let's make soloing impossible for them, sounds like a solid business plan.

There should at least be rogues for pp that can handle hard quest. If you want a rogue that can do elite quests, then make that pay. There is a reason WoW gives a trial period, people don't want to pay before they find out if they like a game.

EllisDee37

02-13-2014, 03:36 PM

New players shouldn't be able to complete quests the first time through in every quest.Tell me, which quests were you unable to complete your first time through?

biggin

02-13-2014, 06:11 PM

Tell me, which quests were you unable to complete your first time through?

It was many moons ago but pretty much all of them. There was no quest scaling so as a cleric I zoned into a quest, saw 4 or 5 mobs who promptly ran over and beat me to death. I learned real quick to group. Awesome part was there was also XP debt (don't remember how it panned out) so you not only got beat to death but then you had to either sit in a tavern while it SLOWLY returned back to base or run the next quest for basically no XP. In 2006 the game was not forgiving in the least. I can see why people left it then. But to say you should be able to buy for plat a way to bypass traps on Norm just doesn't sit right with me. It's not an elitist view. This is a game that people should want to learn to play. I don't see it as any different than if someone couldn't shoot someone playing Halo then asking for everyone to be given nerf guns except for him. Traps are part of the game and people should want to learn how to either use one of the 1000 ways to get by or disarm them themselves.

And to doa, people who verbally abuse new players also verbally abuse old players. Anyone who throws up a LFM for anything, especially anything less than level 10 or so should know what the party makeup will be. A dbag is a dbag no matter which way you put it. I sometimes (when I used to heroic TR) would put up LFM's for things like Gwyland's, Stormcleave, etc not because I needed the help but because it was a break in the monotony to show players around. I still have a lvl 4 FVS who has nothing but wands, pots, plat etc to pass out to new players back when I used to try and help Clay with the mentoring program. I personally don't see a problem with losing 10% XP in a quest that gives very little to begin with.

I don't think a rogue hireling is the reason people are quitting the game.

Uska

02-13-2014, 07:00 PM

So your answer is learn-to-not-suck or pay-to-not-suck?

As long as you are consistent and say that ALL hires should be store bought I guess I can't fault you. I just disagree. Your stance is basically "everyone should learn to play Mario or they are doing it wrong".

The OP's long story in a nutshell is:

1. He does not have the Mario skills needed to avoid traps.
2. He does not PUG due to his self-admitted lack of playing skills that others have.
3. Since you NEED a balanced party for some quests, he would like to hire a rogue for plat, just like you can hire a cleric.

I would rather they were removed entirely but a move to store would be enough I supose

EllisDee37

02-14-2014, 05:25 AM

It was many moons ago but pretty much all of them. There was no quest scaling so as a cleric I zoned into a quest, saw 4 or 5 mobs who promptly ran over and beat me to death. I learned real quick to group.That was a luxury you had. Many new players have trouble finding groups nowadays, especially if they need specific roles filled in that group. (eg: A trapper.)

I don't think a rogue hireling is the reason people are quitting the game.I don't understand why you don't see the connection. It's not the direct cause, but it contributes:

- New player tries a quest, dies in a trap.
- They put up an LFM to try and group for that quest, nobody joins.
- They look for rogue hires at the vendors but can't find any.
- They wait a little longer with that LFM, then give up and write that quest off as unplayable.
- Lather, rinse, repeat...wow that's a lot of unplayable quests, or at best a LOT of time waiting around hoping for a trapper to join my LFM. This game isn't really playable.
- At least I didn't spend any money. Let's see what other free games are out there, maybe that were produced THIS decade.

What I'm saying is get them hooked before they get to that last step. I get that your ego is wrapped up in how much better you are than new players, but your viewpoint is not good for the game's viability.

biggin

02-14-2014, 06:31 AM

That was a luxury you had. Many new players have trouble finding groups nowadays, especially if they need specific roles filled in that group. (eg: A trapper.)

I don't understand why you don't see the connection. It's not the direct cause, but it contributes:

- New player tries a quest, dies in a trap.
- They put up an LFM to try and group for that quest, nobody joins.
- They look for rogue hires at the vendors but can't find any.
- They wait a little longer with that LFM, then give up and write that quest off as unplayable.
- Lather, rinse, repeat...wow that's a lot of unplayable quests, or at best a LOT of time waiting around hoping for a trapper to join my LFM. This game isn't really playable.
- At least I didn't spend any money. Let's see what other free games are out there, maybe that were produced THIS decade.

What I'm saying is get them hooked before they get to that last step. I get that your ego is wrapped up in how much better you are than new players, but your viewpoint is not good for the game's viability.

I don't have an ego about how much better than new players I am. And since you have no idea what the server population was back in 2006 you have no way of knowing how easy it was or wasn't it was to find a group. Obviously you lack any sort of reading comprehension so I'll point it out......again. I played a CLERIC. For low level new players, I played a very desirable class to have in a party. Everyone, from then until now, is always happy to have a cleric in party. Feel free to look at your LFM's and see how many clerics or fvs there are who can't find groups. The OP could easily make a cleric with rogue levels and he would have to go anonymous in 15 seconds due to the sheer volume of party requests.

Like any game you need to learn how to play it. If this were chess, you would need to learn strategy and how the pieces move. Just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean you should move all the pieces like queens. If this were Connect 4 and you could only connect 2 would we then also have to change the game? Traps are part of the game, along with strategy, killing mobs, gear, and 20 other facets. You make it sound as if no one but completionists can survive a trap on norm.

If a new player for whatever reasons decides to play a class no one likes to group with (a new ranged player), doesn't want to learn how to avoid traps, doesn't want to build a decent toon do we then need to pull revenue out of the games pocket to support that? No thanks. Here's another small hint. People who refuse to learn how to play and build crappy toons don't stick around and drop $500 on it. They play as much free content as they can and move on. If you can navigate to the forums to complain that 'trapz iz hard' you can also spend another 10 minutes researching how to build a PC that makes 99% of traps null and void. But oh no, we couldn't possibly think that.

bruener

02-14-2014, 07:43 AM

Provide some examples of quests than cannot be completed without a rogue and you might have an argument.

completed by you without a rogue or completed my an inexperienced first lifer? there is a difference and i believe the OP is talking about new peeps. if we are talking about vets then most likely we can get around most of them. if we are talking about new people then there are dozens that would be awfully frustrating not to have one. do you remember your first run thru Redfang all those years ago? yikes mine was ugly to say the least lol.

I see no reason not to have rogues for hire with plat. we have clerics/fvs hires for plat. to me that makes the game much easier than a rogue hire does. but im sure the healer hires were added to keep ppl around cause getting one to join, that will actually heal someone else these days, is a time consuming PITA.

Irenae

02-15-2014, 04:06 PM

taurean430

02-15-2014, 09:29 PM

Offering a rogue hireling for plat would kill any need for the class in party.

That argument was lost years ago unfortunately. I recall understanding at that time that rogue hirelings were not available at all because of rogues being kicked out of or barred from parties due to lower hp, etc... That ship sailed many moons ago.

Gone are the days where players actually learned how to play the game by trial and error. Everyone wants an easy button accessable to them. It's something that makes me very sad. Something in the game killing your character isn't a cause for review and improvement in survival skills. It's now a call to break out your wallet.

Pretty sad state of affairs.

biggin

02-16-2014, 08:06 AM

That argument was lost years ago unfortunately. I recall understanding at that time that rogue hirelings were not available at all because of rogues being kicked out of or barred from parties due to lower hp, etc... That ship sailed many moons ago.

Gone are the days where players actually learned how to play the game by trial and error. Everyone wants an easy button accessable to them. It's something that makes me very sad. Something in the game killing your character isn't a cause for review and improvement in survival skills. It's now a call to break out your wallet.

Pretty sad state of affairs.

What's even sadder to me is now people are complaining that they play a free game and instead of learning to play it OR pay for it now they want to not learn to play it AND not pay for it by having free rogue hires.

EllisDee37

02-16-2014, 04:13 PM

Fedora1

02-16-2014, 06:57 PM

What's even sadder to me is now people are complaining that they play a free game and instead of learning to play it OR pay for it now they want to not learn to play it AND not pay for it by having free rogue hires.

You still don't get it if you make a comment like that.

The OP has tried, as you say, to "learn" it. He has played for quite some time, he did not start a month ago and now wants rogues to be available (along with clerics and the other classes) for free. Additionally, he has used TP and shards to get them.

You claim not to be elitist but your posts show otherwise. You claim to have read the thread but then make statements which do not reflect the points or reasons made by the OP.

Do cleric hires invalidate all player clerics? Do cleric hires interfere with your play? Have cleric hires ruined the game since they were implemented years ago?

You should worry more about power creep than rogue hires.

Qhualor

02-16-2014, 08:02 PM

I think there should be 1 of EVERY class in pure for both Plat and TP. The plat ones would be so-so while the tp ones would be excellent. Sounds like a simple easy way of doing hirelings that would help Turbine make money, get people addicted to plat ones at first and then when they are annoyed at say a plat rogue for occasionally blowing a box on later levels and higher difficulty to slowly wean them into tp hirelings.

there were complaints a long time ago about hires that couldn't perform certain objectives in quests, even the store bought ones. for a long time a level 9 rogue hire couldn't get the Int in Tear, but the cleric hire could. ive used rogue hires in quests like CoF at level that had trouble opening locked chests. at level rogues that had trouble with Wiz King traps. its been awhile, but I used to have trouble with at level rogue hires that blew the box for the random chest in Feast or Famine. there were a number of other quests that hires couldn't spot at level traps and roll fails on disable traps. sometimes it was a matter of just throwing them a GH, but sometimes not enough.

the last thing we want to do is add more problems with hires or more ways to annoy people. they already have a lot of issues with standing around after a fight and not following, standing there not healing, healing summons and everything else before their master, running slower than their master and having to teleport to you, standing in traps, agroing mobs when you tell them to stand still and have them parked around a corner, etc, etc. the devs did a much better job with them during the last pass, but they are still a long ways from replacing a player.

biggin

02-17-2014, 06:00 AM

You still don't get it if you make a comment like that.

The OP has tried, as you say, to "learn" it. He has played for quite some time, he did not start a month ago and now wants rogues to be available (along with clerics and the other classes) for free. Additionally, he has used TP and shards to get them.

You claim not to be elitist but your posts show otherwise. You claim to have read the thread but then make statements which do not reflect the points or reasons made by the OP.

Do cleric hires invalidate all player clerics? Do cleric hires interfere with your play? Have cleric hires ruined the game since they were implemented years ago?

You should worry more about power creep than rogue hires.

And how exactly am I being elitist by wanting to people to have to pay for a game they play OR learn to play the game? Just because I don't agree with the OP that means I have reading comprehension problems? Odd stance.

No, cleric hires do not invalidate PC's, but one can solo a quest without one. It may hurt your DPS to hop and pot, but it's really no different other than extra time and plat spent. A hireling cleric doesn't invalidate traps, which are integral parts of quests. It's on par with having melee hires who solo red name boss fights.

And why should I worry about power creep? You obviously believe that players who have 'played for quite some time' for some reason can't get past traps on Casual and Norm without an in game free way to bypass them.