Battle cleric

[mobrien316]

Continuing with my ongoing project of building a (pure) battle cleric, I have hit a personal high in HP (531), AC (66), and PRR (36) for Praetoreus, my level 16 dwarven battle cleric. He currently has 11 points in Warpriest, 33 points in Radiant Servant, and 20 points in Dwarven racial enhancements.

I have no idea if these numbers are impressive to others, but they are personal bests for Praetoreus. I'm quite satisfied with this build. I would like his unbuffed melee damage to be a bit better, but it's good as it is. Not great by any means, but good. I can't remember the last time I ran out of SP.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2e1h9vc.jpg

[unbongwah]

What feats etc. did you take? Apart from flavor, what does staying pure get you?

[Pala-forged]

I'll bite - why so much AC/hp? Why a shield?

And.. uh.. why not have more saves?

[axel15810]

What feats etc. did you take? Apart from flavor, what does staying pure get you?

He's brought up his pure build in several threads before. I believe he enjoys playing a pure battle cleric for lore reasons.

As for practicality - I would guess it offers additional SP, turning level, level 8 and 9 spell slots and a capstone.

Not a min/max build and definitely not optimal as far as melee DPS goes, but it will still do great healing any content and have ok melee DPS in epics when using THF in Fury or LD.

[mobrien316]

What feats etc. did you take? Apart from flavor, what does staying pure get you?

This is his current build. He will likely be using his free +20 Lesser Heart once he hits 20 (maybe after a bit of leveling in Shiradi) to take 20 levels of bard for that past life (which is why he is chaotic good for this life - normally I think a dwarven cleric would be lawful good.)

I'm still experimenting with the enhancements, so his next life (which will also be a battle cleric) may be a bit different.

As far as staying pure cleric instead of splashing, I just prefer it that way. I think if you play DDO as a first-person shooter game, staying pure to be a battle cleric is probably not for you. If you play it more like an RPG, then staying pure seems to just make more sense to me. Plus, I have heard from so many people that you simply cannot make a viable battle cleric without splashing something else, so I like the challenge of making a pure cleric who is great at healing and good at melee.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Praetoreus 13th Life
Level 20 Chaotic Good Dwarf Male
(20 Cleric)
Hit Points: 357
Spell Points: 1361
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 19
Reflex: 6
Will: 16

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 16 24 24
Dexterity 8 10 10
Constitution 17 19 21
Intelligence 10 13 13
Wisdom 14 18 18
Charisma 14 16 16

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance -1 0 4
Bluff 2 3 3
Concentration 7 28 31
Diplomacy 2 3 6
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 2 3 3
Heal 6 27 30
Hide -1 0 0
Intimidate 2 3 3
Jump 3 7 7
Listen 2 4 4
Move Silently -1 0 0
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 0 1 1
Search 0 1 3
Spellcraft 0 14 14
Spot 2 4 4
Swim 3 7 7
Tumble n/a n/a n/a
Use Magic Device n/a n/a n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Druid
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Sorcerer
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Wizard
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Healing Domain (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Smite Foe (Rank 1)


Level 2 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Waraxe
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Pacifism (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Extra Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Wand Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Improved Turning (Rank 1)


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Improved Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Improved Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Mighty Turning (Rank 1)


Level 5 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Intense Healing (Rank 1)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Positive Energy Burst (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Altruism (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Intense Healing (Rank 2)


Level 7 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Intense Healing (Rank 3)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Altruism (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Endless Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 1)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Endless Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Endless Turning (Rank 3)


Level 10 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Shield Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Incredible Healing (Rank 1)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Incredible Healing (Rank 2)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Improved Empower Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Positive Energy Aura (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Divine Might (Rank 1)


Level 13 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Resilience of Battle (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Divine Might (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 1)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Shield Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 2)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Armor Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Shield Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 3)


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Child of the Mountain (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Sanctuary (Rank 1)


Level 17 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Altruism (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 3)


Level 19 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Child of the Mountain (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 2)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Tactics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Tactics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Tactics (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 3)





I'll bite - why so much AC/hp? Why a shield?

And.. uh.. why not have more saves?
The AC and HP are as useful to a battle cleric as they are to a fighter or other front-line melee character. As far as the saves, Fortitude and Will are fine for level 16. I haven't found a need for higher Reflex saves until higher levels, and at level 18 he uses other gear to increase his DEX and Reflex saves.

[kierg10]

you don't need that many HPs at lvl 16.

Sword and board is seriously limiting your dps potential.

The saves are meh

If you are a melee you should invest more into Warpriest tree than radiant servant.

Pure is a waste, at most go 18 levels of cleric, and even 18 cleric 2 fighter isnt as good as 17 cleric 2 monk 1 fighter.

[mobrien316]

you don't need that many HPs at lvl 16.

Sword and board is seriously limiting your dps potential.

The saves are meh

If you are a melee you should invest more into Warpriest tree than radiant servant.

Pure is a waste, at most go 18 levels of cleric, and even 18 cleric 2 fighter isnt as good as 17 cleric 2 monk 1 fighter.

Thanks for the input. Did you read any of my post?

[mobrien316]

People are free, of course, to have anyone they like in their group. They can screen based on the number of vowels in a character's name if that's what they want to do... In my opinion, some people could be a lot more open to who they will accept in their group and still be able to complete everything.

This morning my level 18 battle cleric sees an LFM for Lords of Dust on elite, which he hadn't done before. The group already has five in it, a monk, an artie, two barbarians, and a wizard. I hit the LFM to join. The LFM was limited to druids, favored souls, and clerics, so it seemed to me they were looking for a healer.

A moment later I get a tell, "Caster cleric?"

I reply, "No, battle cleric. I can heal."

There is silence for at least sixty seconds and then I get a "Sorry!" tell followed by a decline.

I solo'd the quest. It took me about half an hour. When I was done, their LFM was still up.

[SirValentine]

I get a "Sorry!" tell followed by a decline.

I solo'd the quest. It took me about half an hour. When I was done, their LFM was still up.


Beautiful! Got to love that.

Personally, I might have put up another LFM for it, marked "BYOH, IP".

[Makkuroi]

id probably go twf with warpriest, double (or triple with doublestrike percentage) proc on ameliorating strike is just too good. Taking radiant servant tier5 is definitely better than warpriest tier 5, i took warpriest tier 4 and radiant servant tier 5 on my clonk (at epic levels, for leveling I was disciple/servant) and was rather satisfied.

[guardianx2009]

People are free, of course, to have anyone they like in their group. They can screen based on the number of vowels in a character's name if that's what they want to do... In my opinion, some people could be a lot more open to who they will accept in their group and still be able to complete everything.

This morning my level 18 battle cleric sees an LFM for Lords of Dust on elite, which he hadn't done before. The group already has five in it, a monk, an artie, two barbarians, and a wizard. I hit the LFM to join. The LFM was limited to druids, favored souls, and clerics, so it seemed to me they were looking for a healer.

A moment later I get a tell, "Caster cleric?"

I reply, "No, battle cleric. I can heal."

There is silence for at least sixty seconds and then I get a "Sorry!" tell followed by a decline.

I solo'd the quest. It took me about half an hour. When I was done, their LFM was still up.

That's because 'battle cleric' is a dirty word.

I had a somewhat similar experience:
A few weeks back while I was levelling my level 14 pure, I joined a pug for Elite Madstone. I reached the quest first and proceeded to start clearing the front optional. All is good, until on the way to the first seer, party leader notices the kill count:

Leader: "Are you a DPS cleric"?
My Response: "I'm a do everything cleric"

Leader goes on a rant about how I'm going to run out of SP and become a liability etc etc..

At this point, I decided to make it a point to run up the kill count. Right before the locked gate optional with the 3 red named skele's, I intentionally dumped my SP, then proceeded to turn every single skele in there... including the 3 red names.

I ended up running away with over 100 kills.

[axel15810]

That's because 'battle cleric' is a dirty word.

I had a somewhat similar experience:
A few weeks back while I was levelling my level 14 pure, I joined a pug for Elite Madstone. I reached the quest first and proceeded to start clearing the front optional. All is good, until on the way to the first seer, party leader notices the kill count:

Leader: "Are you a DPS cleric"?
My Response: "I'm a do everything cleric"

Leader goes on a rant about how I'm going to run out of SP and become a liability etc etc..

At this point, I decided to make it a point to run up the kill count. Right before the locked gate optional with the 3 red named skele's, I intentionally dumped my SP, then proceeded to turn every single skele in there... including the 3 red names.

I ended up running away with over 100 kills.

lol...got to love the times when this happens. Can't stand people who don't understand that being able to melee has no affect on your ability to heal the party.

If I were you, as soon as I heard that "you're going to run out of SP" nonsense I would have thrown on my madstone boots so I couldn't cast and healed the whole quest with aura and bursts :D

[Spoonwelder]

I would seriously consider two feat changes:

Toughness and Maximize out
Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery in - more PRR, more doublestrike for dmg if you are staying in S&B mode all the time.

Maximize isn't helping your two main cures - Heal and Mass Heal. And Empower healing plus devotion item and enhancements and you should be doing adequate healing from aura/bursts.

Honestly as well - I would consider dropping D-axes and going with your faith weapon - the extra damage from the warpriest will help alot in bumping up your damage more than offsetting the small drop in dps from not using D-axes that is unless you have a lit2 or something for levelling and aren't going to stay at cap.....

As for enhancements - I agree with the previous poster - get to tier 4 in Warpriest at least and Rad servant with the rest of your non-racial AP allocation. I would also argue that tier 5 is nice since you get perma Divine Power and Magic backlash is very nice to put casters on their butts. Try out Divine Vessel but I found it always proc'd just as I killed something so I dropped it to save the AP. With ameliorating strike you won't miss the radiant aura too much at all.

[SirValentine]

Leader goes on a rant about how I'm going to run out of SP...


You're supposed to run out of SP! If you're not running on empty when you get to a shrine, you weren't casting enough. He didn't want those SP just WASTED, did he?

[SirValentine]

I would seriously consider two feat changes:

Toughness and Maximize out
Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery in - more PRR, more doublestrike for dmg if you are staying in S&B mode all the time.

Maximize isn't helping your two main cures - Heal and Mass Heal. And Empower healing plus devotion item and enhancements and you should be doing adequate healing from aura/bursts.


I'm not impressed with Toughness, either.

But Maximize? Have to disagree there. Even ignoring healing, and even if you melee a lot, I expect there will be times you use Divine Punishment or Blade Barrier. Maximize makes a noticeable difference.

And completely disagree on "main cures". Sure, Heal is a given. But Mass Heal? No thanks. Especially on a melee build, who wants to stop everything else for that long? Maximize helps your real main group-curing, Positive Energy Burst and the Mass Cure Wounds spells. Mass Heal seems like a niche spell only useful in a few specific places, not a bread-and-butter spell.

[voodoogroves]

Mass Heal seems like a niche spell only useful in a few specific places, not a bread-and-butter spell.

Places like "the past", mostly.

[unbongwah]

As far as staying pure cleric instead of splashing, I just prefer it that way. I think if you play DDO as a first-person shooter game, staying pure to be a battle cleric is probably not for you. If you play it more like an RPG, then staying pure seems to just make more sense to me. Plus, I have heard from so many people that you simply cannot make a viable battle cleric without splashing something else, so I like the challenge of making a pure cleric who is great at healing and good at melee.
If you're staying pure for RPing or personal challenge - well, more power to you. But even if you're not going the Radiant Titan route, a ftr splash for feats & free profs. and/or pally splash for Divine Grace would really help out with your apparent goals - namely "heals+melee DPS+not dying." :)

As stated, the Shield Mastery feats would help out your S&B DPS + PRR (+15% doublestrike and up to +30 PRR w/Legendary Shield Mastery); with a ftr 2 splash, you could take Imp Shield Bash + Shield Striking for 35% bash chance. Cleave feats add AoE DPS and access to Overwhelming Crit, Lay Waste, and Momentum Swing. Adding Empower boosts your bursts & DPS spells (if you use them). Toughness isn't worth it unless you're also going for eToughness, IMHO; and even then it's iffy on a feat-starved build.

[ValariusK]

What server is it that has enough clerics that pickup groups can be picky as to what spec their priest has? Certainly not Orien. I never had any trouble there on my first life THF 19C/1F warpriest or my 2nd life TWF 20 priest (who was actually MORE, not less, of a war priest than my first life despite the pure class). Maybe there are a few people out there that would hold out for the slightly better healing ability a radiant sword and boarder has but I've never met them. Most are happy just to have a cleric at all. In my 3rd life, as a rogue-1/fighter-1/ranger-rest, I'm feeling an acute shortage of 1st tier healing classes (with my spec I'm distinctly 3rd tier in that).

[axel15810]

Places like "the past", mostly.

I guess I'm in the minority because I still use Mass heal during boss fights or times when the party is grouped up close and aura/bursts aren't enough. Mostly only on EE. Its way more efficient than mass cures - it heals for way more and costs less SP. And with inflated HP bars these days that's important. Yeah it casts slow but just cast it a second or two before you would normally cast the mass cure and it's not a problem.

Can't remember the last time I used a mass cure in epics.

[guardianx2009]

Places like "the past", mostly.

This past week, I found myself resorting to Mass Heal in the EE Study in Sable end fight.

It worked better and more efficient than cures. It stabilized the fight once I started pacing it with the vampire's attack pattern.

[Spoonwelder]

To me a warpriests main source of healing is going to be either two or three of aura, burst and ameliorating strike - without being all speced out you will be hitting with 200+ burst, 50+ aura and 150ish strike - if you have all 3 going you won't need much else - what you may need is a big heal on the group ie. Mass Heal (quickened) and you will be just fine or single heals on single targets. So maximize is less necessary.

I also said to drop it if he is primarily melee - DP doesn't do enough damage(without gearing for it which will likely mean he sacrifices melee dps to do so) to slot a feat just for it. Blade Barrier is nice but if you are dumping wisdom then it will always be saved against....so in a feat starved class where he stated he is mostly melee - I would recommend against maximize. But if he splashed two fighter levels then I would want it back in.

Pure Cleric - dwarf - 7 feats to heroic cap
PA,D-axe,IC:Slash,quicken, emp. Heal and
either
Cleave/GCleave (for OC at 21) or
Shield/Imp Shield for more Doublestrike or
Max/Empower for more damage on no DC spells (searing light, DP, nimbus)

[firemedium_jt]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Holy_Symbol_of_Lolth

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Shamanic_Fetish_(Level_25)




To me a warpriests main source of healing is going to be either two or three of aura, burst and ameliorating strike - without being all speced out you will be hitting with 200+ burst, 50+ aura and 150ish strike - if you have all 3 going you won't need much else - what you may need is a big heal on the group ie. Mass Heal (quickened) and you will be just fine or single heals on single targets. So maximize is less necessary.

I also said to drop it if he is primarily melee - DP doesn't do enough damage(without gearing for it which will likely mean he sacrifices melee dps to do so) to slot a feat just for it. Blade Barrier is nice but if you are dumping wisdom then it will always be saved against....so in a feat starved class where he stated he is mostly melee - I would recommend against maximize. But if he splashed two fighter levels then I would want it back in.

Pure Cleric - dwarf - 7 feats to heroic cap
PA,D-axe,IC:Slash,quicken, emp. Heal and
either
Cleave/GCleave (for OC at 21) or
Shield/Imp Shield for more Doublestrike or
Max/Empower for more damage on no DC spells (searing light, DP, nimbus)




Even if you build for primary melee does not mean you will be invited to the group as such.

It is not that hard to fit in Radiance spell power along with Impulse and Devotion. You using a red slot for spell power instead of 1d10 acid or whatever is not a big drop in melee dps.

triple stacked DP does over 200/sec and a nice addition to your melee damage or if you are not the primary melee and are hanging back. Some nice versatility if you take Maximize and even Empower. If you splash you can take both.

[Spoonwelder]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Holy_Symbol_of_Lolth

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Shamanic_Fetish_(Level_25)








Even if you build for primary melee does not mean you will be invited to the group as such.

It is not that hard to fit in Radiance spell power along with Impulse and Devotion. You using a red slot for spell power instead of 1d10 acid or whatever is not a big drop in melee dps.

triple stacked DP does over 200/sec and a nice addition to your melee damage or if you are not the primary melee and are hanging back. Some nice versatility if you take Maximize and even Empower. If you splash you can take both.

Fully stacked DP only does an average of 71 (3d6+60) before spell power - maximize adds 105 to that (71x150%) - add crits at say 15% and you get about 120 avg dmg added by maximize. That is every 2 seconds for 16 seconds - so say 8 hits total of 960 dmg ADDED from maximize. For 75 SP Most likely a melee build that would be maximized on each hit due to the finickyness of rolling out two unmaximized DPs then hitting with maximized only on the 3rd and subsequent......now lets just estimate the number of swings per second at about 4 (I am sure someone on the forums has the exact number) so for 16 seconds that is 64 swings. So Maximize on your DP is adding 15dmg per swing.....that is good.

BUT
-it takes 20seconds to get to that level of damage add so its useless in trash fights.
-take casting time out of your DPS (say even 1 second so 4 swings and you lose maybe 200 damage on a mediocre melee)
-SP now no longer spent on healing, buffing etc....
-don't forget lost SP and time when the boss moves behind you so you are not 'facing'

VERSUS
3% doublestrike all the time, improved AC and PRR

I can't tell someone that one is absolutely better than the other - you can tell on your own from playing - is a Maximized DP critical to your success in taking down a boss? Self healers? Does it drain your SP unnecessarily otherwise? I suggested the drop of maximize to allow him to fit in more melee DPS which seemed to be his focus. That to me meant he had shunted casting damage down to 3rd focus (Melee, Heal, Cast) and the build choices should reflect that. As such maximize is on the bubble for this type of build.

ALSO

As the OP is a PURE battle cleric splashing to get extra feats is not an option I discussed. He could also drop D-Axes and use faith based weapons (5dmg per swing extra+3d4 light dmg light total). Then he could keep maximize and go with SM and ISM.....it would most likely be an improvement if he could get decent weapons to replace his DAxes.

[firemedium_jt]

Fully stacked DP only does an average of 71 (3d6+60) before spell power - maximize adds 105 to that (71x150%) - add crits at say 15% and you get about 120 avg dmg added by maximize. That is every 2 seconds for 16 seconds - so say 8 hits total of 960 dmg ADDED from maximize. For 75 SP Most likely a melee build that would be maximized on each hit due to the finickyness of rolling out two unmaximized DPs then hitting with maximized only on the 3rd and subsequent......now lets just estimate the number of swings per second at about 4 (I am sure someone on the forums has the exact number) so for 16 seconds that is 64 swings. So Maximize on your DP is adding 15dmg per swing.....that is good.

BUT
-it takes 20seconds to get to that level of damage add so its useless in trash fights.
-take casting time out of your DPS (say even 1 second so 4 swings and you lose maybe 200 damage on a mediocre melee)
-SP now no longer spent on healing, buffing etc....
-don't forget lost SP and time when the boss moves behind you so you are not 'facing'

VERSUS
3% doublestrike all the time, improved AC and PRR

I can't tell someone that one is absolutely better than the other - you can tell on your own from playing - is a Maximized DP critical to your success in taking down a boss? Self healers? Does it drain your SP unnecessarily otherwise? I suggested the drop of maximize to allow him to fit in more melee DPS which seemed to be his focus. That to me meant he had shunted casting damage down to 3rd focus (Melee, Heal, Cast) and the build choices should reflect that. As such maximize is on the bubble for this type of build.

ALSO

As the OP is a PURE battle cleric splashing to get extra feats is not an option I discussed. He could also drop D-Axes and use faith based weapons (5dmg per swing extra+3d4 light dmg light total). Then he could keep maximize and go with SM and ISM.....it would most likely be an improvement if he could get decent weapons to replace his DAxes.

I would like to see your math on DP.
You must mean the first 20 seconds while you triple stack. I am talking about a triple stack after the first 30 seconds or so. My numbers are with Max and empower and about 100 light power with about a 9% critical average.

I have a spread sheet on it but cant find it right now being that I am on my phone.

[firemedium_jt]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/390677-amp-Cleric-Divine-Punishment-and-why-Divines-should-use-it-more-DOTs-rock?highlight=divine+punishment

Well my Android update messes my phone up so here is the link to my DP numbers posted about half way down the thread.

I will say that I like Empower and Maximize together. Also works on other things like healing bursts and SLAs types for free.

m

[mobrien316]

I find Maximize very handy on my battle cleric. It is free to use with Healing Burst, and it is a big help in tougher fights when I can stack maximized DP to go along with melee damage. I'd like to squeeze in Heighten as well, for a higher success rate on Destruction, but there just aren't enough feats.

[axel15810]

I find Maximize very handy on my battle cleric. It is free to use with Healing Burst, and it is a big help in tougher fights when I can stack maximized DP to go along with melee damage. I'd like to squeeze in Heighten as well, for a higher success rate on Destruction, but there just aren't enough feats.

To me, Maximize is worth it for the +150 spellpower to Burst alone because of how often I use burst. Heck, I hated having to give up Empower in my most recent build to fit in all the melee feats I wanted. The added uses on DP, Blade barrier, ect. are just gravy. But I don't have amy strike. Now if you have amy strike as well as burst/aura I could see giving it up although I don't use amy strike in the first place because of how unrealiable it is.

But at that point if you're giving up on bursts by not taking maximize, I'd think seriously about just going FVS. And I'd for sure go FVS if you're going T5 Warpriest and not taking aura, because what's the point of being a cleric if you don't use aura or bursts? May as well get the extra SP and goodies that FVS get. FVS have access to the Warpriest tree as well.

[Spoonwelder]

I would like to see your math on DP.
You must mean the first 20 seconds while you triple stack. I am talking about a triple stack after the first 30 seconds or so. My numbers are with Max and empower and about 100 light power with about a 9% critical average.

I have a spread sheet on it but cant find it right now being that I am on my phone.
My math is just on the affect of maximize's 150 spellpower addition to whatever else you may already have - that 150 is applied to the base damage - max triple stack with average of 71dmg (3d6+60) 71x150%=105ish. Add crits in the 15% range and the increase FROM MAXIMIZE is 120ish on average - every 2 seconds for 16 seconds.

Same info as in my last post emphasis added though. I agree a fully meta'd, spellcrafted, geared spell power of in the 3-400s will produce alot of damage - but maximize is only a portion of that.

Anyway as I said it is a build choice that someone needs to consider - but having maximize is not an absolute requirement on a warpriest. I personally don't have it right now on mine and I don't miss it too much - I have way too many other things to click on to reliably get and keep the stack going. And really it's only needed on bosses/mini-bosses.

[Spoonwelder]

To me, Maximize is worth it for the +150 spellpower to Burst alone because of how often I use burst. Heck, I hated having to give up Empower in my most recent build to fit in all the melee feats I wanted. The added uses on DP, Blade barrier, ect. are just gravy. But I don't have amy strike. Now if you have amy strike as well as burst/aura I could see giving it up although I don't use amy strike in the first place because of how unrealiable it is.

But at that point if you're giving up on bursts by not taking maximize, I'd think seriously about just going FVS. And I'd for sure go FVS if you're going T5 Warpriest and not taking aura, because what's the point of being a cleric if you don't use aura or bursts? May as well get the extra SP and goodies that FVS get. FVS have access to the Warpriest tree as well.

Ameliorating strike is easy to use and doesn't preclude being in RS at tier 5 as it is only tier 4. If you are a battle cleric (pure) I can't see any great reason not to have it. With a heroic Elite Shamanic Fetish (72 devotion I think) and empower healing I proc for 150ish (double proc with TWF for 300 ish). I found I don't even need aura really - burst is enough.

I haven't found Am Strike to be unreliable at all - I only have to watch that I have a target in front of me and if a ranged type that they have just moved (ie. aren't likely to move away again in the next second). The radius of heal is also similar to burst so works well - and it procs a lesser restoration which is nice (not as good as burst but still nice).

I also wouldn't give up bursts - empower healing is more than enough plus basic devotion item to get a really good result from it.

Again though - maximize is a choice at this point for a battle cleric - you choose to use it - fine - I am not saying you are wrong in doing so just that the options for that feat choice should be considered. Either 3% doublestrike (shield mastery) or another 5% doublestrike (improved shield mastery).....the improvement in your melee damage from that choice may well be worth it to some....alternatively spend some feats on TWF for even more DPS.

[unbongwah]

For fun I took the OP's build concept of a super-sturdy axe&shield cleric and came up with this TYWA-based monstrosity:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 28 Lawful Good Dwarf Female
(2 Paladin \ 18 Cleric \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 651
Spell Points: 1251
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 28
Reflex: 10
Will: 16

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 11 13
Dexterity 8 10
Constitution 20 30
Intelligence 12 14
Wisdom 11 13
Charisma 14 16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: CON


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)


Level 8 (Cleric)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: CON
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: CON


Level 17 (Cleric)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: CON
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Constitution (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Dwarven Runes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Axe Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Dwarf - Throw Your Weight Around (Axes) (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Healing Domain (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Pacifism (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Positive Energy Burst (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Improved Empower Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Positive Energy Shield (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Wand Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Wand Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Wand Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Altruism (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Altruism (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Altruism (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Improved Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Improved Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Divine Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Intense Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Intense Healing (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Unyielding Sovereignty (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Martyrdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Endless Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Endless Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Incredible Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Incredible Healing (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Positive Energy Aura (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Cure Focus (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Reactive Heal (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Smite Foe (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Resilience of Battle (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Sanctuary (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - War Domain: Blur (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Sacred Touch (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Sacred Touch (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Sacred Touch (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Smite Weakness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Ameliorating Strike (Rank 1)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: CON
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Toughness


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Holy Strike


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Blinding Speed


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: CON
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Elusive Target


The pally splash adds Divine Grace & d.axe prof; the Shield Mastery feats boost PRR & doublestrike (+15% doublestrike and up to 30 PRR w/Legendary SM); I pushed base HPs past 650 just for bragging rights. ;)

Bad idea? Probably. :p STR-based would be better DPS, esp. w/Divine Might; dropping the Toughnesses to add more metamagics or CL+GC would also make sense. But OP was going off the beaten path, so off the beaten path I went.

[axel15810]

Ameliorating strike is easy to use and doesn't preclude being in RS at tier 5 as it is only tier 4. If you are a battle cleric (pure) I can't see any great reason not to have it. With a heroic Elite Shamanic Fetish (72 devotion I think) and empower healing I proc for 150ish (double proc with TWF for 300 ish). I found I don't even need aura really - burst is enough.

I haven't found Am Strike to be unreliable at all - I only have to watch that I have a target in front of me and if a ranged type that they have just moved (ie. aren't likely to move away again in the next second). The radius of heal is also similar to burst so works well - and it procs a lesser restoration which is nice (not as good as burst but still nice).

I also wouldn't give up bursts - empower healing is more than enough plus basic devotion item to get a really good result from it.

Again though - maximize is a choice at this point for a battle cleric - you choose to use it - fine - I am not saying you are wrong in doing so just that the options for that feat choice should be considered. Either 3% doublestrike (shield mastery) or another 5% doublestrike (improved shield mastery).....the improvement in your melee damage from that choice may well be worth it to some....alternatively spend some feats on TWF for even more DPS.

Perfectly valid points, we all have different opinions.

I personally hate amey strike. I can see why others would like it. But it's not my playstyle. I have an alt who has it, but as far as my main, no. I want a reliable mass heal that I can cast in the heat of the moment, not one that requires I be standing in front of an enemy or that has a chance of missing.

But the main reason I don't have it is because I find the AP more useful elsewhere. Besides, Aura and Bursts are plenty enough free healing. The only time I'd use Aemy Strike anyway is when I'm out of bursts, since Aemy strike (to me) is just a gimped burst. In warpriest I'm generally just taking Divine Might and +10 PRR.

As far giving up Maximize, in heroics you might be ok without it. But in my opinion with the inflated HPs on your allies and the increased damage from enemies in epics, bursts would be almost not worth using for a main source of healing if not maximized. Especially Epic Elite.

[Spoonwelder]

Perfectly valid points, we all have different opinions.

I personally hate amey strike. I can see why others would like it. But it's not my playstyle. I have an alt who has it, but as far as my main, no. I want a reliable mass heal that I can cast in the heat of the moment, not one that requires I be standing in front of an enemy or that has a chance of missing.

But the main reason I don't have it is because I find the AP more useful elsewhere. Besides, Aura and Bursts are plenty enough free healing. The only time I'd use Aemy Strike anyway is when I'm out of bursts, since Aemy strike (to me) is just a gimped burst. In warpriest I'm generally just taking Divine Might and +10 PRR.

As far giving up Maximize, in heroics you might be ok without it. But in my opinion with the inflated HPs on your allies and the increased damage from enemies in epics, bursts would be almost not worth using for a main source of healing if not maximized. Especially Epic Elite.

Granted that your opinion holds for you but when I need a 'reliable mass heal' I either cast mass heal :) or a mass cure or if it is just me - heal. But Am. Strike,radiant burst in rotation are enough to keep me topped up most of the time - occasionally having to jump back - cast heal, refresh displacement - head back in to battle if I am getting too much aggro. That said I haven't played this character in epic elites - he's not geared for it - I wouldn't until I could reliably hit double procs of Am. Strike in the 200s (ie. 400 total) every 15 seconds - but with EE I would also thing aura is a throw away - just not enough spike healing available....burst and mass cure/heal are your only real choice.

As to AP taken in WP if you are a battle cleric - really I like Inflame and points spent there (with the two optional lines attached for saves and elemental dmg reduction), DM and PRR are enough to get you to Am Strike. On a FVS I would for sure go to Tier 5 and take Magic Backlash and Divine Power.

[firemedium_jt]

Well I don't use Divine Punishment with Max and Empower on mobs. That is a waste of mana with or without Meta feats. The whole point of melee Cleric is to melee trash mobs. There by saving spell points. And Ameliorating Strike saves me mana along with Aura and Burst with Maxizmize and Empower Feats. Therefore I have enough spell points to cast Divine Punishment Max/Empowered out with those mana saving devices even with 3 levels of splash. I save it for Orange Red names that will last long enough for 6 casts of DP. If they don't last that long then the boss name is not worth it. DP finishes bosses faster increasing my total dps output reducing my need to heal waiting for the pure melees to finish it.

There is Cocoon, a long with heal scrolls too. Cocoon is a huge savings on healing also especially if others in the party have it too. A long cool down, but just something else for cheap healing along with Ameliorating Strike.


With this strategy I splash Pal2 FTR1 now, and it is so much more powerful than Pure Melee Cleric in so many ways. There is tons of synergy.

[mobrien316]

With this strategy I splash Pal2 FTR1 now, and it is so much more powerful than Pure Melee Cleric in so many ways. There is tons of synergy.

For some people, the goal is to make a powerful melee cleric without splashing anything else. It can certainly be done, and the fact that it is more difficult to do than if you were to splash one or two other classes is exactly why people do it.

[firemedium_jt]

For some people, the goal is to make a powerful melee cleric without splashing anything else. It can certainly be done, and the fact that it is more difficult to do than if you were to splash one or two other classes is exactly why people do it.

I am building for EE. You obviously are not. Not saying your are not having fun with your Pure Build and I will even say you are pushing the envelope, and challenging the norm. It is just a less powerful build the way the game is at the moment. But hey who knows in a few months with these devs.

The quest that took you a hour to solo would have probably taken 30 minutes with a CLR17/PAL2/FTR1 build.

[firemedium_jt]

Divine Punishment explained

(and other DOT spells like Niac's_Biting_Cold and Eladar's_Electric_Surge)

Every tick is every 2 seconds.

If your DP maxed out on spell power with Maximize and Empower does around 100 damage per tick then...


Time
in
Sec. DP1 DP2 DP3

0 Cast
1
2 100
3
4 100
5
6 100
7
8 100
9
10 100 Cast
1
2 200 100
3
4 100 100
5
6 100 100
7
8 100 100
9
20 100 200 Cast
1
2 200 100 100
3
4 100 100 200
5
6 100 100 100
7
8 100 100 100
9
30 100 200 cast
1
2 100 100 100
3
4 200 100 100
5
6 100 100 200
7
8 100 100 100
9
40 100 200 cast



The last 20 seconds is

25x100 = 2500
7x200 = 1400

3900

every 20 seconds or

200/sec average


https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/390677-amp-Cleric-Divine-Punishment-and-why-Divines-should-use-it-more-DOTs-rock?highlight=divine+punishment


Now that is casting every 10 seconds. However once you triple stack you can wait till 16 seconds to continue the stack, but when the cooldown ends is when i recast it. I would not want to risk losing a stack in cause the worst monster in the game is the lag monster.

The triple stack continued with no criticals:

20 100 100 Cast
1
2 100 100 100
3
4 100 100 100
5
6 100 100 100
7
8 100 100 100
9
30 100 100 cast
1
2 100 100 100
3
4 100 100 100
5
6 100 100 100
7
8 100 100 100
9
40 100 100 cast

with no critical is 3000 every 20 seconds or

150/sec


The above 40 second DP stack is a 20% critical that can be hard to get nowadays with the last few updates. Half that is 10% and not that hard to get, but hard to maybe gear for on a melee cleric especially with all the epic gear that is so much better. However if it is your job to hang back and heal getting your Light critical on a stick is not that hard at all.

You can use DP even on a melee cleric with lower mana as long as you take all the cheap healing you can take. Ameliorating Strike is the cheapest for 2W damage also. Then there is burst and Aura. Your turns regenerate. Followed by Cocoon that has a nice range and no line of sight and very cheap to use. Then heal scrolls at a plat cost. Then there are your Heal and Mass Heal spells for large amounts of healing. If you have a well built and geared group your Heal and Mass Heal is not needed as much.

If your Divine Punishment is less or greater than 100 then use that percentage. i.e. 80 would be a 20% reduction or 120/sec with no critical and 168/sec with a high light critical of about 20% critical chance.







P.S.

be careful with this. The boss will probably charge you.

[mobrien316]

I am building for EE. You obviously are not.

You are incorrect. While I don't plan each life specifically for EE (because that's only a fraction of the game), I've already done a number of EE's in previous lives with this build (or close variations of this build). EE's can be very tough, some more so than others, but there are plenty of people who do EE without "optimal" builds.

As far as doing a quest in half the time with a splashed battle cleric, you must be misunderstanding me. The challenge of building a pure battle cleric is part of the fun part for me; if my goal was to do each quest as quickly as possible, I'd go with a different build that made the quests easier, as you apparently do.

[firemedium_jt]

You are incorrect. While I don't plan each life specifically for EE (because that's only a fraction of the game), I've already done a number of EE's in previous lives with this build (or close variations of this build). EE's can be very tough, some more so than others, but there are plenty of people who do EE without "optimal" builds.

As far as doing a quest in half the time with a splashed battle cleric, you must be misunderstanding me. The challenge of building a pure battle cleric is part of the fun part for me; if my goal was to do each quest as quickly as possible, I'd go with a different build that made the quests easier, as you apparently do.

So without good saves in EE you melee like a pure melee? Man I doubt that, but if you run with powerful builds in EE you can get away with it. At least Favored Souls have better saves to melee if you are going to build a cleric like one. Heck even Favored Souls are not staying pure to get PAL2 or MNK2 for survivability if they want to be able to use their melee in EE and live.

I pug a lot and that in itself is challenging enough for me. Tons of pugs that don't read the forums and have weaker builds. I say weaker, but not necessarily less fun. I just mean to plan for the variety.

I am just finishing grinding most of my EDs and rebuilt my Human Cleric from CLR17/FTR2/WIZ1 to CLR17/FTR1/PAL2 to eventually go in FOTW and melee in EE. Maybe not when the main healer in the group, but when we have enough divines, so I can diversify. I will also say that the PAL2 is not needed for heroic, so I would take PAL2 at lvl19 and lvl20 for epic.





If you want to Sword and Board this is for you

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Madstone_Aegis

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Oathblade
They came out with this before the invention/update with Keen II and III. If a weapon is a named epic with Keen they really should give it a Tier 2 or 3 keen for .5W or 1W extra with the latest gear update; seriously. Maybe Vorpal tier 2 or 3 also.

[silinteresting]

as for melee'ing in epic elite as a pure cleric wasnt there a post from a twf
cleric who dumped str and saves a little while back.

i seem to remember being called raindance or something close to it.

your friend sil :)

just remembered name i think it was called silverdance, anyway check it out
from what i remember seemed good at the time.

your friend sil :)

[firemedium_jt]

Granted that your opinion holds for you but when I need a 'reliable mass heal' I either cast mass heal :) or a mass cure or if it is just me - heal. But Am. Strike,radiant burst in rotation are enough to keep me topped up most of the time - occasionally having to jump back - cast heal, refresh displacement - head back in to battle if I am getting too much aggro. That said I haven't played this character in epic elites - he's not geared for it - I wouldn't until I could reliably hit double procs of Am. Strike in the 200s (ie. 400 total) every 15 seconds - but with EE I would also thing aura is a throw away - just not enough spike healing available....burst and mass cure/heal are your only real choice.

As to AP taken in WP if you are a battle cleric - really I like Inflame and points spent there (with the two optional lines attached for saves and elemental dmg reduction), DM and PRR are enough to get you to Am Strike. On a FVS I would for sure go to Tier 5 and take Magic Backlash and Divine Power.

I have not done a lot of EE. I am starting to.

If you are using Mass Cures you are doing something wrong IMHO. They are so expensive in mana for less than half the healing of Mass Heals. They are barely better than burst and Amel strike.

You might need to scream at the group about aggro management and fortification if you need to use Mass Cures.

I cant remember using Mass Cures once I got Mass Heal. Even without Mass Heal I tried to use Mass Cures and thought the return on my mana investment was a joke.

If you are using Mass Cures then you sure as hell are not casting Divine Punishment.

[mobrien316]

If you are using Mass Cures then you sure as hell are not casting Divine Punishment.

Why not?

[axel15810]

Why not?

Too SP intensive. If you're doing both you'll burn through your SP in no time.

[axel15810]

Divine Punishment explained



Nice job on the math.

In heroics, DP is a great spell.

On epics though, I feel it is mostly not worth casting if on a melee cleric.

First of all, it is costly and you may need the SP to heal, buff, ect. Most melee clerics have low SP. And until you get it completely built up, you'll definitely be losing more DPS in the 1 second of cast time than your DoTs are hitting for. So we're only talking big HP bosses where DP is in consideration to be used. And how long can it be reasonably sustained with a melee cleric's low SP?

And even at it's peak, I'm not sure it's worth it losing the melee DPS to cast time when I'm already critting for thousands of damage in melee. And your post assumes a perfect cast sequence...in game you're likely not going to time it just right so that lowers the numbers as well. And many, likely most melee clerics don't have empower, which lowers your damage on DP even more. And they likely have none of the light enhancements in the DD tree. And they may not even have much in the warpriest tree if they don't invest heavily in it (I don't).

And you have to slot a radiance item. Not a big deal if you have a shamanic fetish equipped but many (like me) prefer to slot devotion on a weapon red slot. And you have to fit in DP on a melee cleric's already cramped hotbar.

I'm not claiming to know the math but for all practical purposes it seems to me the spell is no longer worth it in epics for me.

[firemedium_jt]

Nice job on the math.

In heroics, DP is a great spell.

On epics though, I feel it is mostly not worth casting if on a melee cleric.

First of all, it is costly and you may need the SP to heal, buff, ect. Most melee clerics have low SP. And until you get it completely built up, you'll definitely be losing more DPS in the 1 second of cast time than your DoTs are hitting for. So we're only talking big HP bosses where DP is in consideration to be used. And how long can it be reasonably sustained with a melee cleric's low SP?

And even at it's peak, I'm not sure it's worth it losing the melee DPS to cast time when I'm already critting for thousands of damage in melee. And your post assumes a perfect cast sequence...in game you're likely not going to time it just right so that lowers the numbers as well. And many, likely most melee clerics don't have empower, which lowers your damage on DP even more. And they likely have none of the light enhancements in the DD tree. And they may not even have much in the warpriest tree if they don't invest heavily in it (I don't).

And you have to slot a radiance item. Not a big deal if you have a shamanic fetish equipped but many (like me) prefer to slot devotion on a weapon red slot. And you have to fit in DP on a melee cleric's already cramped hotbar.

I'm not claiming to know the math but for all practical purposes it seems to me the spell is no longer worth it in epics for me.

There are better spells like Draconic Energy burst twisted in. You only get Quicken on it for free. It does 1800 damage easy for me with a potency 78 item. Is cheap on mana. A long cooldown, but is better on mobs than Blade Barrier and a lot cheap to use. The DP is mostly for EH xp grinding and getting things done if we have too many Divines in the group and not enough dps. There are lots of builds that can BYOH too nowadays. EE only if my mana is not needed for healing. DP is a necessary tool that should not be gimped IMHO. So yeah I get what you are saying. I even managed to take one SLA Searing light.

Just so many reasons to take Maximize and Empower.

It is easy to time it to stack it.

I have a cool down bar right below my character with Smite, Divine Might, Divine Punishment, Cleave, GCleave, Momemtum Swing, Adrenaline, Primal Scream, Draconic Energy Burst, Inflame, and Cocoon. Then there is Human Damage boost and FTR haste, but they are usually timed with Adrenaline to stack with it.

Using turn undeads have no cool down now, so you can cast your Aura and Radiant burst with no cool down between them.

I only look up at the top of the screen for the Aura timer and Divine Power timer from my item click.

[mobrien316]

This post is not aimed at anyone in particular... There is a continual disconnect between players who say "I like playing this class this way with these feats/gear/enhancements" and the people who respond with "That's a waste! This is so much better than that!"

I think if some argues something along the lines of "this build with this gear is the highest DPS in the game" then it certainly makes sense for someone else to counter with "actually, this build with this gear is demonstrably more DPS."

But when someone says "I like this build and I like using these spells because it works for me and I enjoy it" I really don't get why some people feel the need to denigrate that. Are they offended because someone is having fun on a build that is not considered optimal? Are they annoyed because someone is using gear or enhancements or spell combinations that are not mathematically "the best" for them to be using?

[stoerm]

Thanks for sharing your build, I for one found the stats impressive. There is no such thing as too much HP. In fact a deep HP pool and free healing from radiant aura are a good combination to absorb spikes in incoming damage, even though your saves are fine for your level.

I'm liking the durable front line dorf cleric concept and wil probably do something similar on my main for his next cleric life. After the current life he'll have done caster and melee paths on both cleric and fvs.

Regarding the age old battle cleric pug decline issue, I find it mildly amusing considering that a caster divine will probably spend his sp and spell slots for offense, not healing. It's up to the leader to decide if either is better, since the likelihood of getting a healbot is fairly miniscule.

[Spoonwelder]

I have not done a lot of EE. I am starting to.

If you are using Mass Cures you are doing something wrong IMHO. They are so expensive in mana for less than half the healing of Mass Heals. They are barely better than burst and Amel strike.

You might need to scream at the group about aggro management and fortification if you need to use Mass Cures.

I cant remember using Mass Cures once I got Mass Heal. Even without Mass Heal I tried to use Mass Cures and thought the return on my mana investment was a joke.

If you are using Mass Cures then you sure as hell are not casting Divine Punishment.
You misread me - I was kind of joking. Mass cures are only emergency casts.....all timers on hold (ie. just hit burst and amy strike but group needs HP NOW hit mass cure fast then back to rotation - Mass cures are emergency only for me).

Mass heal has a problem with being a bit slow in a tight spot but can be added to a rotation of heals (skipped if everyone is at or near full HP).

[axel15810]

This post is not aimed at anyone in particular... There is a continual disconnect between players who say "I like playing this class this way with these feats/gear/enhancements" and the people who respond with "That's a waste! This is so much better than that!"

I think if some argues something along the lines of "this build with this gear is the highest DPS in the game" then it certainly makes sense for someone else to counter with "actually, this build with this gear is demonstrably more DPS."

But when someone says "I like this build and I like using these spells because it works for me and I enjoy it" I really don't get why some people feel the need to denigrate that. Are they offended because someone is having fun on a build that is not considered optimal? Are they annoyed because someone is using gear or enhancements or spell combinations that are not mathematically "the best" for them to be using?

You need to come out and say in your original post "this is a flavor build, I know it is not optimal". Make it clear. You didn't do that. In fact, I haven't seen you actually admit that your build is not optimal in any of your prior posts. But I have seen you make posts saying your build makes sense for this reason or that. Make it clear next time and you won't get any of those comments. People think you are stubbornly trying to defend a pure melee cleric build as optimal when it obviously is not, which why they are annoyed.

[painkiller3]

I think instead of dwarf, morning lord would work as well. Feynwild tap is huge boost to a melee cleric's SP. If I ever TR my 2pal/1ftr iwill probably make her a mornjnglord as 1900sp goes a lot further in epoic with feynwild tap and a bauble

[mobrien316]

You need to come out and say in your original post "this is a flavor build, I know it is not optimal". Make it clear. You didn't do that. In fact, I haven't seen you actually admit that your build is not optimal in any of your prior posts. But I have seen you make posts saying your build makes sense for this reason or that. Make it clear next time and you won't get any of those comments. People think you are stubbornly trying to defend a pure melee cleric build as optimal when it obviously is not, which why they are annoyed.

You have got to be kidding me. I don't see how anyone can think I was posting this build as a "king of DPS" build.

In my first post, when I wrote:

I would like his unbuffed melee damage to be a bit better, but it's good as it is. Not great by any means, but good.
You interpreted that to mean I thought he was king of DPS? A melee build without cleave or great cleave? Without any weapon focus or weapon specialization feats?

And when I wrote:

Plus, I have heard from so many people that you simply cannot make a viable battle cleric without splashing something else, so I like the challenge of making a pure cleric who is great at healing and good at melee.
You thought when I mentioned a “viable battle cleric” that I secretly meant “optimal battle cleric?” Viable means "capable of success or continuing effectiveness" - it is not synonymous with "optimal."

[firemedium_jt]

Well right off I had a problem with the title. It is already a troll thread due to that.

Battle Cleric and Healbot are dirty words on the Cleric forum.

They are polar opposites and inexperienced players and trolls use those terms. And those that think a Cleric should only heal therefore if you splash levels they will call you a Battle Cleric and if you don't you may be called a Healbot. Heck please do not take our advice as you being a Healbot. That is more about how you play the class.

There is

Melee Cleric
Necro Cleric
CC Cleric
Evoker Cleric
Radiant Titan
etc.
Lots of creative names, but most do not classify their builds as Battle or Healbot.

Then there are melees that take Cleric up to Heal and the rest melee for cheap healing BB and DP.

You can melee a Pure Cleric and avoid the splash if you want to. Its fine. No one cares how powerful we are really as long as we heal when needed.

But you know they want the healer to live and Hit Points is not always enough currently even with all that Toughness. Heck Toughness might even be gimp now.



Here is my Radiant Titan. Due to saves being important I think this build is optimal at the moment for EE.

It has +5 Supreme tome...
and I got very little help on the forums...
because many do not believe in buying anything at the DDO store. I even buy mana pots Major Concentrated cause they are so cheap for me at 6 cents a piece for Majors, but lately I almost never use them. It allows me versatility in the game when needed. It goes against the elitist attitude on the forums, but I hate grinding and pick my grinding carefully. About the only thing I grind is the EAGA and a daily run of Jungle for xp. If it only cost me real world pennies to close the gap with the multi elite TRs I do not have a problem with that. Those that work a lot and have less time on their hands or are casual can keep up with the rest. I support the game and those that have to F2P it.

Some minor tweaking would be even out the CHR, so I gave a little extra STR in Warpriest. Took the Universal Spell Power down slightly from 9 ranks to 5 ranks. Took Human CHR (instead of STR) and an extra Kensei action boost. Divine Disciple has the +2 to saving throws and I took one long range SLA Searing light. I find it useful. Just 12 points in that tree now. The Universal Spell Power is ok, but a very small increase the more total spell power you have as a percentage.

Some other things I might do differently is delay Overwhelming Critical and in favor of GTHF. Maybe even Great Cleave, but it helps reset my Momentum Swing 5W and that is huge especially when I stack it Adrenaline and Human Damage boost using the EAGA with a W of d20.



Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

CLRftrpal Melee
Level 28 Lawful Good Human Male
(1 Fighter \ 2 Paladin \ 17 Cleric \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 492
Spell Points: 1222
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 30
Reflex: 17
Will: 21

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28) (Level 28)
Strength 14 23 25
Dexterity 14 19 19
Constitution 16 24 24
Intelligence 8 13 13
Wisdom 12 17 17
Charisma 14 19 21

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
+4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15
+5 Tome of Strength used at level 19
+5 Tome of Dexterity used at level 19
+5 Tome of Constitution used at level 19
+5 Tome of Intelligence used at level 19
+5 Tome of Wisdom used at level 19
+5 Tome of Charisma used at level 19

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28) (Level 28)
Balance 2 12 20
Bluff 2 5 13
Concentration 7 30 38
Diplomacy 2 5 13
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 2 5 13
Heal 1 3 11
Hide 2 4 12
Intimidate 2 5 13
Jump 2 7 15
Listen 1 3 11
Move Silently 2 4 12
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair -1 1 9
Search -1 1 9
Spellcraft 3 22 30
Spot 1 3 11
Swim 2 7 15
Tumble n/a 5 13
Use Magic Device n/a 6 14

Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Spellcraft (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host
Feat: (Human Bonus) Maximize Spell


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+2)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Spellcraft (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Balance (+1.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: CON
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: CON
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: CON
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Human Adaptability: Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Divine Emissary of Light (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Sacred Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Spellpower: Universal (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Spellpower: Universal (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Spellpower: Universal (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Spell Points (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Spell Points (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Spell Points (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Spellpower: Universal (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Spellpower: Universal (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Spellpower: Universal (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Searing Light (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Searing Light (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Spellpower: Universal (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Spellpower: Universal (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Divine Disciple (Clr) - Spellpower: Universal (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Healing Domain (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Pacifism (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Positive Energy Burst (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Improved Empower Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Extra Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Wand Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Wand Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Wand Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Bliss (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Bliss (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Improved Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Improved Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Improved Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Intense Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Endless Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Endless Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Endless Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Incredible Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Radiant Servant (Clr) - Positive Energy Aura (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Smite Foe (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Resilience of Battle (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Divine Might (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Toughness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Smite Weakness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Wall of Steel (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Inflame: Saving Throws (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Clr) - Ameliorating Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Axes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)








Speed and Divine Power are easy to get on items so why take feats and enhancements for them? Those are build assests best spent elsewhere.
All you really need to melee a Pure Cleric in Heroic is Improved Critical or Keen and Power Attack and Cleave for 2hr with Paralyzer. For Two Weapon all you need is the first TW feat and Improved Critical with a Paralyzer. Extra gear mostly Metalline, seeker, accuracy and deadly, and Paralyzer, and about 4 Divine Power items with 3-5 clicks each to last between shrines. So with just a few feats any Divine can melee. Even Mages.

Pure Cleric as you can see is easy to give some melee. It is not rocket science or a big deal. The real power is in the Epic Destinies now anyway. You just need to take the Heroic Pre Req for those Destinies.

[mobrien316]

Well right off I had a problem with the title. It is already a troll thread due to that.

Sorry, but I lost interest in reading your reply after the first two sentences. The words "battle cleric" make this a troll thread? That's idiotic.

I have been working on a pure battle cleric build and have gotten to the point where I am satisfied with it. I'm not done, but I'm satisfied with my progress thus far, and I thought I'd post a screen shot of his personal highs in HP, AC, and PRR, just because I enjoy this game and I enjoy building characters and I thought some others might be interested in seeing that all pure battle clerics aren't gimp. Someone asked to see his build, so I posted that.

If you think that's trolling, then either you don't know what trolling is or you are trolling yourself with this post.

[stoerm]

Battle Cleric and Healbot are dirty words on the Cleric forum.


Bleh, they can't have it both ways. Either a build is focused on healing or other things (casting or melee). If "battle cleric" and "healbot" are bad words for a build, the only correct divine path must be the offensive caster!

At most "battle cleric" and "healbot" could be applied as derogatives toward an ineffective play style. Caster divines can be just as useless. Where's the bad word for the fvs who spends all his SP on failed destructs and blade barriers that mobs never run into?

In any case the disdain for melee clerics went away with the self sufficiency mantra. You can't demand non-divines to be self-healing and still ask for clerics to babysit you. Like you say, anyone still using those terms as derogatives is just showing their noobishness.

[unbongwah]

But when someone says "I like this build and I like using these spells because it works for me and I enjoy it" I really don't get why some people feel the need to denigrate that. Are they offended because someone is having fun on a build that is not considered optimal? Are they annoyed because someone is using gear or enhancements or spell combinations that are not mathematically "the best" for them to be using?
For many of us, "proper" builds are optimization exercises: figure out what your goals are, then how to max out your stats, DCs, Spellpower, APs, etc. to meet those goals. There's also an engrained bias against pure builds these days; the U19 overhaul means there's even more "low-hanging fruit" than ever to be harvested thru splashing. Basically, you need a pretty thick skin for daring to be different (read as: suboptimal) when you post to the forums.

Considering I just posted a CON-based S&B dwarven battlecleric, I'm no stranger to wandering off the minmax path. ;) At the same time, though, I think my build has a few advantages over yours, namely higher saves, more HPs, more PRR, and (maybe) better DPS.

I think instead of dwarf, morning lord would work as well. Feynwild tap is huge boost to a melee cleric's SP. If I ever TR my 2pal/1ftr iwill probably make her a mornjnglord as 1900sp goes a lot further in epoic with feynwild tap and a bauble
The problem is you have to spend 10 APs just to unlock Feywild Tap; and most of what's in the ML tree is pretty blah, IMHO. Rejuv of Dawn is alright if you want an extra emergency heal or two; but Blessing of Amaun is redundant with cleric spells, so it just saves SPs. Though I suppose if you specced for hammers or mauls, you could pick up weapon training.

[firemedium_jt]

I am the furthest thing from an elitist on here. I get flack for buying Concentrated Mana pots and the latest +5 Tomes. I consider myself a casual player. It is about having fun and supporting the game. Keeping players is what I am about here. I hate seeing players get discouraged in the game, hit a plateau and leave. I hit a plateau I don't want to grind out of it. I would rather wait for the devs to change things and help me catch up or I get out my pocket book. It bucks the norm on here, but I don't care. And this username is not linked to my regular account. Some get what i am trying to do on here. Mainly it is to promote this game not being a bad habit, and showing others how to do it easier and maybe more fun so they don't quit.

Now you can challenge yourself in many different ways in the game. Run around without armor. Play a few levels above your character lvl, etc. However an orange is an orange and an apple is an apple. Red is red and blue is blue.

A build is either viable and a good build or a bad one. Fun has nothing to do with it. If a build sucks you will be called out on it especially if it is so dam easy to build a better one even for a brand new player. However, enjoy the game the way you want to. You are a customer and a fellow player. I am glad you are here. I don't care if your build is weaker than others. It is more how you play it and how you run with it. And if you enjoy it that is all I really care about because that means you are on the servers joining groups and spending money to keep the game going.

[painkiller3]

The problem is you have to spend 10 APs just to unlock Feywild Tap; and most of what's in the ML tree is pretty blah, IMHO. Rejuv of Dawn is alright if you want an extra emergency heal or two; but Blessing of Amaun is redundant with cleric spells, so it just saves SPs. Though I suppose if you specced for hammers or mauls, you could pick up weapon training.

There's enough to get to 10...initial, rejuvenation dawn, two from bane of restless, 3 enchantment (pre-req) and 2 pts for SP. That leaves 35 for radiant servant, 25 for warpriest and a few points for ftr/pal. I think it's worth a try, if even just for half an hour as a new iconic :)

[mobrien316]

Fun has nothing to do with it.

You're doing it wrong.

[firemedium_jt]

You're doing it wrong.

You miss understand. I am ok with your build having to suck for you to have fun. I dont have a problem with that. Lol

Beauty is in eyes of beholder.

[Jasparion]

Divine Punishment explained

I think the best way to explain Div Punish is that in Heroic it is really only useful on bosses, and even then, in a group your DPS will often be so high that the boss will be down before your 3rd cast.

In Epic it can be more useful because mobs have a lot more HP so will be around longer.

For solo play it can be a lot more effective because you cast Blade Barrier, Div Punish and kite bosses until they die - using up very little spell points.

So it very much comes down to play style.

[Irenae]

Indeed, I am tired of people having cookie cutter builds and/or dictating certain ways to play. It's so unoriginal and unimaginative, and what do people who say simply do not like the monk class do for splashes e.t.c. ? I'm sure Monk is a good class, I even have it and tried it just simply didn't like it (not for me). As long as the quest gets completed and we are not soulstones the entire time so what if someone's build is way different from most people's? I am sure clerics can dps and heal, but that it is hard to pay attention to doing both and the cleric's time is better spent healing in most cases. Also grats on going pure, that adds difficulty but the added difficulty can make it more fun, it's not necessarily fun to trivialize the game's hardest content after all and sometimes more difficult makes more fun to play. I would like more feats personally, and maybe 2-3 Paladin levels as well as access to proficiency feats added by splashing and maybe some Rogue levels and try being a cleric that can open locked doors and disarm trap boxes. That's what's great is that there is something for everyone, so why do we have to be pigeonholed into Battle Cleric or Heal Cleric or Caster Cleric instead of being able to do all three?

[firemedium_jt]

Indeed, I am tired of people having cookie cutter builds and/or dictating certain ways to play. It's so unoriginal and unimaginative, and what do people who say simply do not like the monk class do for splashes e.t.c. ? I'm sure Monk is a good class, I even have it and tried it just simply didn't like it (not for me). As long as the quest gets completed and we are not soulstones the entire time so what if someone's build is way different from most people's? I am sure clerics can dps and heal, but that it is hard to pay attention to doing both and the cleric's time is better spent healing in most cases. Also grats on going pure, that adds difficulty but the added difficulty can make it more fun, it's not necessarily fun to trivialize the game's hardest content after all and sometimes more difficult makes more fun to play. I would like more feats personally, and maybe 2-3 Paladin levels as well as access to proficiency feats added by splashing and maybe some Rogue levels and try being a cleric that can open locked doors and disarm trap boxes. That's what's great is that there is something for everyone, so why do we have to be pigeonholed into Battle Cleric or Heal Cleric or Caster Cleric instead of being able to do all three?

You can do all three. I think you always should. They may be right that you can only do 2 well, but that is more in heroic. With EDs that is less so. I got a lot of flack when I posted my Generalist builds on here. One post said it was hard to fit empower on a melee cleric, but I had no trouble with that at least on my human. Even had Heighten on my Generalist when he had ftr2/wiz1. It is a trade off and that is the fun of it. He is more melee now with Pal2/Ftr1. Even a Pure caster Cleric should melee IMHO, and carry the gear for it like Divine Power, Accuracy, and Deadly. You can even use keen weapons like Falchions, Scimitars, Rapiers and Kukri with seek without Martial Proficiency if you think simple weapons are no good. It is only -4 to hit and that is not much now-a-days with Accuracy and Divine Power items.

Even self healing robot Mages can do all three. They have melee spells too for a reason. Most of their spells heal themselves. Lol. With INT they get some UMD maybe for healing scrolls.

If you run out or want to conserve spell points you might as well do something.

[SirValentine]

why do we have to be pigeonholed into Battle Cleric or Heal Cleric or Caster Cleric instead of being able to do all three?

Opportunity cost.

There's only so many feats, so many Action Points, so many ability and level-up points, so many twists, so many gear slots, and you can only be in 1 destiny at a time.

Every one of those dedicated to melee is one not dedicated to casting, and vice-versa.

You can be mediocre at everything, no problem. But if you want one of those to be effective in the toughest situations, you need to concentrate on it, and that comes at the expense of the others.

For me, to be an effective caster, I have no room for any melee stuff.



You can do all three. I think you always should.
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Even a Pure caster Cleric should melee IMHO


I used to say the same. In low-level content, I still can and do. When level cap was 20, I could and did. Sure, it was only, what, 10-20%, maybe, of the damage of a dedicated melee, but it was just a weapon swap and a couple buff spells.

Now, in tough content, I don't even bother. Standing toe-to-toe with mobs that do 200 or 400 damage a swing, to do 1% of the damage of a melee, against 400,000-hit-point mobs? It's just not worth it. At all. My time and SP is better spent on offensive spells.



One post said it was hard to fit empower on a melee cleric


Heh, I can't even fit Empower on my caster Cleric.



You can even use keen weapons like Falchions, Scimitars, Rapiers and Kukri with seek without Martial Proficiency if you think simple weapons are no good. It is only -4 to hit and that is not much now-a-days


For 1-handers, use Master's Touch scrolls for Proficiency.