dodge percent please explain ...

[snowlord]

dodge chance = (_) ... ??? this is my chance to dodge?

Dodge max = (_) ... ??? This is the max I can get from items? .. so I can add a higher dodge chance item to try and reach this number???

Items don't stack? .. only one the highest dodge bonus item counts?


thx.

[HatsuharuZ]

dodge chance = (_) ... ??? this is my chance to dodge?

Dodge max = (_) ... ??? This is the max I can get from items? .. so I can add a higher dodge chance item to try and reach this number???

Items don't stack? .. only one the highest dodge bonus item counts?


thx.

1) Yes.

2) This is the maximum dodge you can get, total, unless it's from a spell like Displacement or a feat like Improved Uncanny Dodge.

3) Items do not stack. Enhancements do, however.

[prophet1]

hes right let me try to expain how to max it out , ok u have 30% dodge max lets say , so u get the 10% dodge item , also u can use feats dodge 3% , now enhance when u do them look ay the other ones find ones that dont cost many points to get 2 and take em , youll find alot of low ones and those 3% stack up , then you get to epic dest now u can take twist of fates to pull them from other class dests , personally i like to pull the fighter +6 tats and the 20% phy res in comb exp , but if your a monk u already get alot , so if u need steal fro that dest or add a lvl or 2 , u can get to max faster than u would think , class enh can also have specific dodge to there race , so enhancments will stack + item + destiny and 30 actually seems low , but thats every 3 hit miss , so blur or disp then u have dodge , last feat 28 is 5% miss all the time and when they do manage to get through your ac buffers it away or phy res makes it minimal

[sephiroth1084]

2) This is the maximum dodge you can get, total, unless it's from a spell like Displacement

What? Displacement has no relation to Dodge. Completely separate statistics.


As for Dodge, the % is your chance to avoid an attack that would hit you. If your Dodge were 50% and you had no other defenses (AC, concealment, incorporeality), you would be missed on every other attack.

Dodge items don't stack, but different sources all stack together (dodge item, dodge enhancements, feats, dodge from epic destiny, dodge from Haste, etc...). Enhancements that grant a bonus to dodge also all stack.

Your maximum Dodge is the most you can get, except in the case of a few specific abilities (like, as mentioned, Improved Uncanny Dodge when activated). Your armor's maximum Dex bonus will limit this cap, while some abilities and enhancements will allow you to raise one or both of these figures.

For example, if you have a +6% Dodge item on, but you're wearing full-plate armor with a max Dex of 1, then your effective Dodge will be 1%.

As another example, if you have a +10% dodge item, 3% from enhancements, 3% from Dodge feat, 2% from Mobility, 2% from Spring Attack, 2% from Combat Archery, 3% from Grandmaster of Flowers, 3% from a Magister twist, and 4% from monk Ocean Stance (total 32%), but your max Dodge is 25% (the normal max), you won't gain any benefit from the additional 7 points you have.

Some abilities can raise your max Dodge cap.

[Munkenmo]

Enhancements that grant a bonus to dodge also all stack.

Most of what you said was really good advice. This part isn't true though:

Examples of not stacking enhancements:

Kensai agility : ninja spy agility
Kensai improved dodge : Tempest improved doge

It's very easy to argue they don't stack as they're the same enhancement, but in the interest of new player advice I think it's a good idea to point this out.

@ the op, you had it almost perfect:

Dodge Max = max dodge you can get from all sources combined.

[FranOhmsford]

Some abilities can raise your max Dodge cap.

Have had trouble with Max Dodge Cap and Enhancements personally:

1) When taking Feats {Dodge/Mobility} and Enhancements that "Supposedly" Boost Dodge Chance...Which of these are STILL stopped by Armour?

2) Do any of them Boost the Max Dodge of a Monk say from the Base Maximum? {IF NOT an Earth Stance Monk has far better defenses than an Air Stance because both can get the exact same Dodge but the Earth Stance gets PRR on top!}.

3) What's the Highest Possible Dodge Chance anyone's managed to get on a Stalwart or Sacred Defender wearing None Mithral Full Plate?
AND
What's the Theoretical maximum if you went for it with ALL Feats and Enhancements possible?

4) When Working out which to Boost what is the Optimum set up at Lvls 18, 23 and 28 for AC, Dodge and PRR for each Role {I won't say Class or Build because that's way too wide} - Tank, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Raid Healer {NOT HEALBOT!}, Caster DPS/CC

5) And has Dodge made Dex a None Dump Stat for anyone other than Dex to Dmg Builds, Tanks {who don't exactly boost it super high anyway} and Monks {Wis and Str both seem to be of higher Priority to many and you can't Dump Con!}? {P.S. Just Enough to Qualify for Imp Precise Shot counts as Dumped in my Book!}

[Matuse]

1) When taking Feats {Dodge/Mobility} and Enhancements that "Supposedly" Boost Dodge Chance...Which of these are STILL stopped by Armour?

All of them. Dodge is capped by armor. Even big boosts like the +50% you get from Master's Blitz is still subject to your armor's dodge cap (which is the same as its dex-to-AC cap).


2) Do any of them Boost the Max Dodge of a Monk say from the Base Maximum? {IF NOT an Earth Stance Monk has far better defenses than an Air Stance because both can get the exact same Dodge but the Earth Stance gets PRR on top!}.

The whole point of Earth is that it's the defensive stance. Air has much higher offense (and better Reflex saves). Unless you're using an ability which raises your dodge cap from 25, everyone has the same dodge cap of 25. Monks will probably taking the "Agility" ability in the Ninja Spy tree. One of its virtues is increasing your max possible dodge from 25 to 28.


3) What's the Highest Possible Dodge Chance anyone's managed to get on a Stalwart or Sacred Defender wearing None Mithral Full Plate?

A multiclass Dwarven Fighter/Paladin, assuming dragonplate armor with a MDB of 2, with a MDB augment in the blue slot (+2), using Epic Daggertooth's Belt (+4 MDB), Stalwart Defense Mastery (+3) and Sacred Defense Mastery (these should stack, for another +3), Dwarven Armor Mastery (+3) and with the active Fighter past life (+1) would have a total maximum dodge bonus of 18.

This could be achieved with a +10 Dodge item, Dodge (+3), Mobility (+2), Spring Attack (+2), 1 Shadar-Kai past life (+1), and being hasted (+1).


AND
What's the Theoretical maximum if you went for it with ALL Feats and Enhancements possible?

A Ranger/Monk using Master's Blitz (+50), +10 Dodge Item (+10), Dodge (+3), Mobility (+2), Spring Attack (+2), 3 Shadar-Kai past lives (+3), Haste (+1), Monk Flurry of Blows (+6), Ranger Improved Dodge (+3), Monk Ninja Spy Acrobatics (+2) = 82. But the cap would be 81 (with 3 tiers of Agility from Ninja Spy and 3 tiers of Improved Mobility from the Tempest tree).

I could be missing something to improve that. I'm not intimately familiar with all of the enhancement trees.


4) When Working out which to Boost what is the Optimum set up at Lvls 18, 23 and 28 for AC, Dodge and PRR for each Role {I won't say Class or Build because that's way too wide} - Tank, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS, Raid Healer {NOT HEALBOT!}, Caster DPS/CC

For survivability, you want everything, really. Permanent Blur, Permanent Incorporeal, Max Dodge possible with your available feats and armor choice, and highest PRR you can manage. Plus of course, saves, element resists, etc, etc.


5) And has Dodge made Dex a None Dump Stat for anyone other than Dex to Dmg Builds, Tanks {who don't exactly boost it super high anyway} and Monks {Wis and Str both seem to be of higher Priority to many and you can't Dump Con!}? {P.S. Just Enough to Qualify for Imp Precise Shot counts as Dumped in my Book!}

Improved Precise Shot needs 19 dex. That would mean a 14 base and a +5 tome to be able to take it at level 19+. I don't know of anyone who considers a 14 to be "dumped".

In any event, Dex has no impact or interaction with Dodge in any way shape or form.

[Razor_Wit]

Thank you for the excellent explanation Matuse. It was very helpful to me.

[Gremmlynn]

A multiclass Dwarven Fighter/Paladin, assuming dragonplate armor with a MDB of 2, with a MDB augment in the blue slot (+2), using Epic Daggertooth's Belt (+4 MDB), Stalwart Defense Mastery (+3) and Sacred Defense Mastery (these should stack, for another +3), Dwarven Armor Mastery (+3) and with the active Fighter past life (+1) would have a total maximum dodge bonus of 18.

This could be achieved with a +10 Dodge item, Dodge (+3), Mobility (+2), Spring Attack (+2), 1 Shadar-Kai past life (+1), and being hasted (+1).Wouldn't the +2 MDB from Mobility Feat make it 20? Or doesn't that stack with something else on the list.

[Munkenmo]

A multiclass Dwarven Fighter/Paladin, assuming dragonplate armor with a MDB of 2, with a MDB augment in the blue slot (+2), using Epic Daggertooth's Belt (+4 MDB), Stalwart Defense Mastery (+3) and Sacred Defense Mastery (these should stack, for another +3), Dwarven Armor Mastery (+3) and with the active Fighter past life (+1) would have a total maximum dodge bonus of 18.

Do mobility and that MDB augment stack? if so your max dex bonus is 20, if not, the MDB augment seems like a bit of a waste.

[Matuse]

Huh, I completely missed that mobility gave a MDB increase. No reason to think that it wouldn't stack with the armor. The one I'm not 100% sure about is whether the augment will stack with Daggertooth's belt.

[unbongwah]

a MDB augment in the blue slot (+2), using Epic Daggertooth's Belt (+4 MDB)
Are you sure these two stack?

[Matuse]

Are you sure these two stack?

Just looked at one of the augments, and it lists an enhancement bonus to MDB, same as Daggertooth. So no stacking. But the 18 still ends up being right. You lose 2 from the augment, but gain it back from Mobility.

[FranOhmsford]

All of them. Dodge is capped by armor. Even big boosts like the +50% you get from Master's Blitz is still subject to your armor's dodge cap (which is the same as its dex-to-AC cap).


In any event, Dex has no impact or interaction with Dodge in any way shape or form.

So taking Dodge and Mobility at low levels on a Full Plate Build is a bad choice I take it?


(which is the same as its dex-to-AC cap) At top of your post whereas at the bottom you say that
Dex has no impact or interaction with Dodge in any way shape or form.

So if a Stalwart started with 18 base Dex, Put all Level ups into Dex etc. etc. {Not that any would! This is Theoretical!} and used all possible boosts to Max Dex Bonus wouldn't he/she have a higher Dodge Cap than one starting at 14 Base Dex and putting nothing else in it other than a vanilla +6 item?

Or your Ranger with no need to hit that 19 dex for Imp Precise Shot {Rangers qualify anyway at Lvl 11} - Let's say you stick everything in Str and Con and leave Dex at Base 10 {Elf} - AGAIN THEORETICAL not saying anyone would!
BUT
How much difference does this really make to survivability?


Finally: Overwhelming Crit requires Base 23 Str right? = 18 Base and +5 Tome on a Dwarf - Take Con to Dmg Enhancement and no need to put any more points in Str whatsoever {not even a Vanilla item!}.
This to me = Dumping Str!

Same goes for Dex 14 +5 Tome for Imp Precise Shot.

Or for any other Feat Requirement!

You're Still Dumping said stat to the lowest you can!

If there's no need to start with 15 or 16 Dex because you can get everything required from 14 then that's a Problem {and one that Dex to Dmg Enhancements have started to Fix thank goodness - I'm just wondering whether Dodge also benefits from as high a Dex as Possible or whether that 14 +5 Tome and lvl appropriate gear is still everything you'll ever need?

i.e. What's the point of Elf Enhancements to Dex on a Non Dex to Dmg Build anyway? {Other than +1 reflex save of course}.


NOT TROLLING Just looking for More than Dex is Fine when it patently is still the weakest {most likely to be dumped} Stat in the game {Despite Dex to Dmg helping a lot!}?
Let's face it...When Every Monk is a Wis Build, Every Artificer/Rogue Mech is an Int Build and When Every Assassin/Acrobat/Ranger USED to be Str Builds Dex has a Real Problem that isn't anywhere near fully fixed and Balanced with the other 5 stats!

[Violith]

So if a Stalwart started with 18 base Dex, Put all Level ups into Dex etc. etc. {Not that any would! This is Theoretical!} and used all possible boosts to Max Dex Bonus wouldn't he/she have a higher Dodge Cap than one starting at 14 Base Dex and putting nothing else in it other than a vanilla +6 item?


max dex bonus is completely different then the stat dex. Its based on armor, robes have no max, but dodge is capped at 25 (apart from enhancements that raise the cap), Some light armor has fairly high max dex bonus (epic duelist I believe is 22), usually goes lower with each heavier armor to heavy which would be lucky to have a natural 3 max dex bonus.

Max dex bonus enhancements and items all raise it equally, so if someone invested in them, and another didnt, the person who did would get a higher dodge cap. so it doesnt matter what the dex is. but the 25% dodge cap is still there, no matter what armor type, so no matter how many max dex bonuses that epic duelist leathers gets, 3 more would be all it'd need to cap dodge, any max dex bonus over that would be wasted. (unless you got a towershield, since those have their own max dex bonus which succeeds the armor's max dex)


so your stats have nothing to do with it, get enogh so you can to acquire Feats you want, and thats about it. for dodge, they dont do a thing, apart from qualifying you for dodge/mobility line of feats.



as for the elven and such, They're just as you said, not really meaningful except to raise stats, which raise AC (dex (and wis for monk) and saves (Con/Dex(or int)/wis(or cha). on a non dex character, dex enhancements arent that great. same with any other stat type. if the build doesnt require it, they're meaningless aside from raising other bonuses.

[FranOhmsford]

max dex bonus is completely different then the stat dex. Its based on armor, robes have no max, but dodge is capped at 25 (apart from enhancements that raise the cap), Some light armor has fairly high max dex bonus (epic duelist I believe is 22), usually goes lower with each heavier armor to heavy which would be lucky to have a natural 3 max dex bonus.

Max dex bonus enhancements and items all raise it equally, so if someone invested in them, and another didnt, the person who did would get a higher dodge cap. so it doesnt matter what the dex is. but the 25% dodge cap is still there, no matter what armor type, so no matter how many max dex bonuses that epic duelist leathers gets, 3 more would be all it'd need to cap dodge, any max dex bonus over that would be wasted. (unless you got a towershield, since those have their own max dex bonus which succeeds the armor's max dex)


so your stats have nothing to do with it, get enogh so you can to acquire Feats you want, and thats about it. for dodge, they dont do a thing, apart from qualifying you for dodge/mobility line of feats.


Sorry if I'm appearing Dumb here but I'm having trouble following this ^

1) The Example you quoted was Stalwart so we're not talking about Epic Duellist's Leathers here - However I did also ask about Rangers later on so not a biggie.

2) You seem to be under the impression that Both would have the same Max Dodge Cap and therefore the same Dodge.

What I was getting at however was say we have 2 Stalwart Defenders, Both Dwarves and Both with exactly the same Armour {Best Non-Mithral Full Plate available!} and Both with access to +2 Ship Buffs.

1 of them starts with 10 Base Dex and has a +6 Dex Augment Slotted at Lvl 20 {+8 at 28 if that's even available!} and a +2 Tome.

The other starts with 16 Base Dex and has a +10-12 Dex item, an Exceptional Dex item and a +5 Tome

Are you telling me that that Max Dex Bonus doesn't matter one jot to the second and he could have no more Dodge than the 1st?


If this is true then What is the Optimum Dex Score that any higher won't make a difference to a Stalwart?
What is the Optimum for a Ranger in E-Duellist's Leathers
And what Enhancements, Feats etc. are simply not necessary OR again What's the Optimum Dex to aim for on a Wind Stance Monk?

[mikarddo]

Hmm, I wonder if this means its better to wear a robe on a FvS rather than medium armor?
Do you think the higher dodge cap from the robe or the higher prr from the medium armor is better? The extra ac is almost surely of no consequence.

[Matuse]

So if a Stalwart started with 18 base Dex, Put all Level ups into Dex etc. etc. {Not that any would! This is Theoretical!} and used all possible boosts to Max Dex Bonus wouldn't he/she have a higher Dodge Cap than one starting at 14 Base Dex and putting nothing else in it other than a vanilla +6 item?

All other things being equal, someone with an 8 dex has exactly the same dodge as someone with 20, 50, 70, 200, or 500 dex.


Or your Ranger with no need to hit that 19 dex for Imp Precise Shot {Rangers qualify anyway at Lvl 11} - Let's say you stick everything in Str and Con and leave Dex at Base 10 {Elf} - AGAIN THEORETICAL not saying anyone would!
BUT
How much difference does this really make to survivability?

Higher dex would mean a slightly higher AC, but not enough to justify the expense if you don't need the dex for something else (feat qualification).


What I was getting at however was say we have 2 Stalwart Defenders, Both Dwarves and Both with exactly the same Armour {Best Non-Mithral Full Plate available!} and Both with access to +2 Ship Buffs.

1 of them starts with 10 Base Dex and has a +6 Dex Augment Slotted at Lvl 20 {+8 at 28 if that's even available!} and a +2 Tome.
The other starts with 16 Base Dex and has a +10-12 Dex item, an Exceptional Dex item and a +5 Tome
Are you telling me that that Max Dex Bonus doesn't matter one jot to the second and he could have no more Dodge than the 1st?

Correct. Max Dex Bonus is related to dodge based on the armor being worn. The maximum dodge you can have is the same as the max dex bonus of your armor. Sans armor, everyone has the same maximum possible dodge: 25. Some things let you exceed that 25 (Monk, Ranger enhancements that raise the cap, or temporary bonuses like Master's Blitz that specifically blow the cap up).

For a fullplate wearer, if you also want a good dodge chance, you have to heavily invest in items/enhancements/feats that raise the max dex bonus of your armor, because that will by extension also raise your dodge cap. There might be some fullplate out there that has a MDB higher than 2, but I'll bet it's otherwise incredibly terrible to wear and not worth the 1-2 points of dodge it would give. Not compared to the significant offensive or defensive benefits of Black or White Dragonplate.


If this is true then What is the Optimum Dex Score that any higher won't make a difference to a Stalwart?

There's no such thing. A Stalwart wants lots of AC, and everybody wants a high reflex save. Dex helps both of those things, and Reflex is not capped by armor, so the effective maximum would be enough dex that you could only fail ANY reflex save on a 1...for a Fighter with a bad innate Reflex, you'd probably be looking at something like a 90 dex to achieve that much of a save bonus. Better off investing in Con to just withstand the hit than to avoid it (since you wouldn't have Evasion anyway).

Again, your dexterity score has NOTHING to do with your Dodge. That being said: If you're looking at maxxing out your Dodge, then there's a dex requirement to take the actual Dodge feat (13). That's the closest that those two stats come to interacting with one another.


What is the Optimum for a Ranger in E-Duellist's Leathers
And what Enhancements, Feats etc. are simply not necessary OR again What's the Optimum Dex to aim for on a Wind Stance Monk?

Same as Stalwart (except Rangers and Monks get Evasion, so can make much better use out of an uber-high reflex save). A triple class monk/ranger/rogue would by virtue of enhancements and innate class feats have the best possible dodge available with the least investment. But this doesn't relate to the dex score beyond the 13 needed to qualify for the Dodge feat.

[sephiroth1084]

Max Dex bonus does two things:

Limits the amount of Dex you may apply to your Armor Class
Limits the percentage of Dodge you may benefit from

That the is the beginning and end of the relation between Dex and Dodge--they are both limited by your MDB on armor.

A Dex of 6 has the same chance to Dodge, and max Dodge as a Dex of 50--whatever their Dodge bonuses are, and a cap of 25 (before enhancements adjust that).

Ideally, you want as much Dodge as you can get. AC is almost entirely meaningless in epic elite content, whereas Dodge retains almost its entire value everywhere in the game: some monsters may be able to bypass some amount of Dodge, but given the numbers we have available for that (stuff like 3% bypass from Grim Precision, or 3% from Elven Skill), and the fact that I've never seen anyone reporting that their Dodge chance isn't working as much as it should, I suspect any creatures capable of bypassing some Dodge are limited to maybe 4 or 5% max, but more likely 1-3%.

For these reasons, full-plate is somewhat detrimental to your character's defenses if you're running EE, unless you're going to invest heavily in improving the MDB on your armor to the high teens/low 20s (and filling it), which is itself going to detract from other areas.

As for highest max Dodge...I think it's possible to get up to something like 31%, maybe a little higher, and the only things that affect that, or exceed it, call out that relationship in their descriptions. Ninja Spy's Agility increases your max Dodge chance by 3, but doesn't increase your Dodge bonus, for example.