Balance

[Jaajoo]

I have been playing DDO couple years, and been playing multiple other MMORPG games as well. I think the DDO has clearly the worst balance in the gaming history. No offence really, just a fact. DDO has still the best character system because it is rather versatile, and probably so rather hard to balance. Well, bad balance is really dropping the build options fast, but it is still nice.

Is there any plans to improve the balance?


imho...

I think the biggest general issue is that builds that can do multiple things can actually do those things extremely well. Those builds can do those so well that single purpose builds do have hard time.
Like DPS vs DPS&SelfHeals. etc.

Balancing heavy/medium armor vs monk&evade would be a really nice thing, I have to admit that I have really been waiting this one. Evade is far more useful than just AC/PRR, evade is maybe the best feat in the game. So Heavy/Medium Armor needs a huge buff to be a valid option imho. I have to admit that a knight in a shining robes is getting a bit boring after all these years.

Continue by making the shields useful.

I think that small clear fixes like by setting Divine Grace to cap to paladin level should already be there.

There might be people who enjoy from broken mechanism, and then love to pwn. I am still sure that most of us hate that. So if you see a build that is clearly superior to one of the pure classes, it is either over powered or your pure class is under powered.

...

And maybe you have to give more hp for mobs, so that those have time to hit back.

[lyrecono]

nice trolling,

Try the other perspective:

on Epic Elite stuf hits so darn hard and has so much hp, that the best option seems to be a (slightly melee) ranged toon with:

Evasion&super saves (70 buffed is not uncommen) to avoid the damage that's so high that hp can't soak it up anymore like it used to.
Ranged dps, to avoid the insane melee damage mobs put out.

self healing, because grouping up in melee expecting mass heals is suicidal. I have seen many healers disapear since the enhancement update, only poping up for guid raids. They might have lost interest in playing for some reason....
Another good reason for self healing is time constraints, if you have 2 hours of play a day, you're not gone waste it on waiting for a healbot.

i build an EE AC/Prr tank, it survives with ease, still gets denied in "end game" by top tier players, 6 selfhealing ranged dps toons just make it go by faster. I might not like it, but i moved on.
Nobody at turbine listens or cares.

If your refering to heroic content:
are you running with tr's?
Speaking as a (near triple) completionist, my main's with his carnifex cuts through elite WW like a chainsaw through tinfoil, backed up by high stat points, protective bufs, potions, perma blur, evasion high saves, atleast 6 years of experience, yada yada yada.
All that gear, build stuff, and player experience cost time to build up. Ask advice on toon building, gear options etcwhen grouped up with veteran players.

With some time and unhealthy obsesion, even you can do it.
Just don't blame the guy/girl behind the toon, all we did was adapt to the environment, the harsh elite conditions that were laid down by turbine.

Don't bother asking for ballance, turbine stopped carring years ago...

Ranger attack speed, instakill casting, sorc's shirady, furymonchkers etc, they nerf&buff by acident, not by ballancing.

[Jaajoo]

nice trolling,

Try the other perspective:

on Epic Elite stuf hits so darn hard and has so much hp, that the best option seems to be a (slightly melee) ranged toon with:

Evasion&super saves (70 buffed is not uncommen) to avoid the damage that's so high that hp can't soak it up anymore like it used to.
Ranged dps, to avoid the insane melee damage mobs put out.

self healing, because grouping up in melee expecting mass heals is suicidal. I have seen many healers disapear since the enhancement update, only poping up for guid raids. They might have lost interest in playing for some reason....
Another good reason for self healing is time constraints, if you have 2 hours of play a day, you're not gone waste it on waiting for a healbot.

i build an EE AC/Prr tank, it survives with ease, still gets denied in "end game" by top tier players, 6 selfhealing ranged dps toons just make it go by faster. I might not like it, but i moved on.
Nobody at turbine listens or cares.

If your refering to heroic content:
are you running with tr's?
Speaking as a (near triple) completionist, my main's with his carnifex cuts through elite WW like a chainsaw through tinfoil, backed up by high stat points, protective bufs, potions, perma blur, evasion high saves, atleast 6 years of experience, yada yada yada.
All that gear, build stuff, and player experience cost time to build up. Ask advice on toon building, gear options etcwhen grouped up with veteran players.

With some time and unhealthy obsesion, even you can do it.
Just don't blame the guy/girl behind the toon, all we did was adapt to the environment, the harsh elite conditions that were laid down by turbine.

Don't bother asking for ballance, turbine stopped carring years ago...

Ranger attack speed, instakill casting, sorc's shirady, furymonchkers etc, they nerf&buff by acident, not by ballancing.


Nice trolling dude, I love it...

Yes, in DDO forums everything that is negative about the game is trolling. So you are right, I am trolling as well with my negative ideas. This is the only forum where you are a troll if you want something to be fixed. Nice still that you agree that the game balance is very broken.

Do not worry, I cut through the WW with my carnifex as well. So you think you have skills because of this? I think the game is just easy, and even I can do it with my TR! And I have zero unhealthy obsession, because the game is easy mode.
There is no freaking mad skills in this game, and you wont get those because you play years, imho. This is not atom and nuclear physics, this is a game, seriously. The most important thing is to know what is the flavor of the year and you are good to go. Oh, and then good thing to know are the broken items that are madly OP for their level.
The game is only difficult for new players because they think that the game classes are in balance, and they just pick something to play... And indeed, they stand there proudly in their heavy armor.

Then you tell that some specific kind of build is the one that works in EE. So again we can see that the specific kind of builds work, means those are broken, because rest of the builds cannot follow. Or maybe it is the opposite, the rest of the builds should just get a clear buff.
You also go through some of the stat and values, nice, and you just point exactly the parts that are broken in the game. Like for example that evasion&Super saves?
You tell me about AC/PRR tank, and that you do not get groups. I feel sorry for you. Please devs fix it.

I am not blaming the guy behind the toon, I am blaming the devs.

I have not yet lost my hope after all these years.. Please do something for this very bad balance, pretty pls.
If you could do that so that it is not an accident, like that you actually think about what you are doing.
I think all the rest of the people should continue calling balance here as well, until we get it.

The devs have a nice community behind them, there are people that have been playing year after year. I think you could show some gratitude from this support and finally give us a great big balance fix.

...

Please dont take things too seriously, life is too short for that.

[TeacherSyn]

Blaming Turbine for the game is like blaming God for water being wet after you fall in a pool.

A game, for good or bad, is a simulation with a set of rules. Some rules may be too strict (Nintendo Hard) and make for a game that's too hard to play. Some games might have fewer rules, is easy to play but leaves little challenge.

DDO still offers quite a bit of balance. Why do I say this?

Because you're complaining. Not that complaining is totally a bad thing. But you're standing about waiting for the world to change while other players are learning how to change their worlds, through their characters. That's what a game is.

Nor will Turbine or any other game company worth a darn tell you how to play or give you hints. That removes the challenge. The balance you seek comes not only from maxing this and using that, but in how you play. A zerging Rogue, no matter how good a trapper, is a dead one. A Monk with low WIS and STR is equally endangered.

You'll have a long wait before Turbine hands you solutions on a platter. That's not how the world works. The balance is found in hundreds of feats and enhancements and skills. You have to bother to take the time to learn how to fit the pieces together or find another game to enjoy.

[Jaajoo]

Blaming Turbine for the game is like blaming God for water being wet after you fall in a pool...

The devs are defining how things are, they can fix the balance issues. Unfortunately I cannot affect to that more than just complaining that they have done ~nothing for it in years.

If you can fix balance by playing well, please play more.

[lyrecono]

all i was saying is that they should fix the game mechanics first, Armor toons work fine in heroics (if you have strong gear and build for it ofc).
the content isn't ballanced well for all the classes. (imho)

[Teh_Troll]

[QUOTE=Spencerian;5195321]
DDO still offers quite a bit of balance. Why do I say this?/QUOTE]

because you like being wrong?

[DrakHar]

I have been playing DDO couple years, and been playing multiple other MMORPG games as well. I think the DDO has clearly the worst balance in the gaming history. No offence really, just a fact. DDO has still the best character system because it is rather versatile, and probably so rather hard to balance. Well, bad balance is really dropping the build options fast, but it is still nice.

Is there any plans to improve the balance?


imho...

I think the biggest general issue is that builds that can do multiple things can actually do those things extremely well. Those builds can do those so well that single purpose builds do have hard time.
Like DPS vs DPS&SelfHeals. etc.

Balancing heavy/medium armor vs monk&evade would be a really nice thing, I have to admit that I have really been waiting this one. Evade is far more useful than just AC/PRR, evade is maybe the best feat in the game. So Heavy/Medium Armor needs a huge buff to be a valid option imho. I have to admit that a knight in a shining robes is getting a bit boring after all these years.

Continue by making the shields useful.

I think that small clear fixes like by setting Divine Grace to cap to paladin level should already be there.

There might be people who enjoy from broken mechanism, and then love to pwn. I am still sure that most of us hate that. So if you see a build that is clearly superior to one of the pure classes, it is either over powered or your pure class is under powered.

...

And maybe you have to give more hp for mobs, so that those have time to hit back.

1. Your divine grace "Fix" will just mean paladin is as bad of a splash as it is as a main class.

2. Multiclasses should have an edge when built correctly over pures. Now, the flipside: they should be WORSE when not built well. Right now, it's as simple as "take 2 levels of monk, rogue, or paladin." It should be harder than that, but when done correctly, you should be rewarded. And you should be punished for mussing it up.

3. I see you're one of the posters who wants a character who is only good at one thing. That's boring as hell for me. And most players may or may not agree with me, or you, I'm not pretentious enough to think I'm in the majority, but I CAN tell you that every party I've been in HATES when we have to wait for one specific character type to start a quest. Multiclassing solves this issue.

4. The reason there are balance problems is because of what you listed as a strength - the diversity of builds. If you want each thing to only fill one role then you don't help diversity, you slaughter it. I see tons of builds in game now with the enhancement pass. Yes, they're multiclassed, but the difference is, they aren't all 12/6/2 or 18/2. I see 15/3/2, 8/8/6, 9/5/5, and everything in between - this is a good thing. People are asking "What do you think is better? 13/6/1, 12/6/2, 15/3/2..." etc on guild forums. That never happened before the update, because everyone knew the one or two best splits for each class, and anything different was probably "wrong". Now, there's real tradeoffs on where you level split.

I admit, however, there is no tradeoff vs being pure. And I also admit that I don't care, for the same reason I don't care the paths are broken - being pure should make you functional, but it should not be as powerful as someone experimenting to find the best combination. Otherwise, you kill what you perceive as the strength of the system, the many varied combinations.

Edit: If you want specific things nerfed (low level monk splashes, etc) then we can talk. But in general, I can't agree.

[Jaajoo]

all i was saying is that they should fix the game mechanics first, Armor toons work fine in heroics (if you have trong gear and build for it ofc).
the content isn't ballanced well for all the classes. (imho)

I think that armor toons do not work in heroics. Actually, when was the last time you needed armor in heroics?

There is a certain amount of truth in content that is not in balanced for all the classes. Like if the content would have far less reflex save "things", evade would not be mandatory.

Still, I think the content is not the real issue here, and at least the harder one to fix. I would try to find fix from the class features instead.

[Jaajoo]

1. Your divine grace "Fix" will just mean paladin is as bad of a splash as it is as a main class....

1. DG fix would make Paladin to have its own thing, you have to splash it a bit more to get the benefits. There can sure be other issues in Paladin class that would need buff, but DG in its current form is broken.

2. Why multiclasses should have an edge? Why the game just cannot give you versatility and "way I want to play"? Why it has to give power from that?

3. I actually hate that pretty much in all games you have to specialize. I really like this side in DDO to be honest. But I dont want to get additional powers from it. I accept that classes that specialize are clearly the best in what they do. I do not have to be able to do everything almost as well as specialized classes. I would feel that the game is not in balance because of that. Indeed.

4. The new enchantments are making heavy multiclassing possible because the minimum level requirements for all the boons is at level 5. This was a nerf for pure classes. They should double the effects form capstones, or maybe even more. Sure there are the core abilities that need more than 5 levels of specific class.


I am not here for pure classes. I am here for class balance.

[DrakHar]

1. DG fix would make Paladin to have its own thing, you have to splash it a bit more to get the benefits. There can sure be other issues in Paladin class that would need buff, but DG in its current form is broken.

No one would take it further than four. Paladin is an utterly useless class past 4. MAYBE someone would take it to 6, but at that point, taking 6 levels of something for a +1 to saves/level isn't really something anyone will do.


2. Why multiclasses should have an edge? Why the game just cannot give you versatility and "way I want to play"? Why it has to give power from that?
Because versatility = power. It just does. Being able to melee, ranged, self heal, etc, that's the big issue. People aren't generally yelling about a big number so much as "can do it while being safe" whether that be in pjs, in the back, self healing, etc.
3. I actually hate that pretty much in all games you have to specialize. I really like this side in DDO to be honest. But I dont want to get additional powers from it. I accept that classes that specialize are clearly the best in what they do. I do not have to be able to do everything almost as well as specialized classes. I would feel that the game is not in balance because of that. Indeed.
The game uses success and failures, not degrees of success. So either the splash can get traps, or can't. No in between. So either you make it so the one who dabbles in traps is just as good, or is useless. That's the mechancis.

4. The new enchantments are making heavy multiclassing possible because the minimum level requirements for all the boons is at level 5. This was a nerf for pure classes. They should double the effects form capstones, or maybe even more. Sure there are the core abilities that need more than 5 levels of specific class.

I agree, capstones should be better.

I am not here for pure classes. I am here for class balance.

Answers in bold.

[Jaajoo]

Answers in bold.

1. So you say that it is better to leave DG as it is and let the Paladin to be broken after lvl4? Or maybe, just maybe DG could be fixed and paladin made to be useful on lvl20 as well?
DG should be fixed and paladin class should be buffed. This is the right way of doing it imho.

2. Versatility in other games make you versatile, not more powerful. Why you think that in DDO it just cannot work?

3. Traps, one of the rare features that I think is working well atm. Rogue mechanics may have something to add here. But... Do you have some other examples to add here?

[axel15810]

There is a simple fix to all the balance issues with splashes.

Simply give us some capstones that are competitive with evasion like the devs said they would be instead of pathetically weak ones.


Problem solved.

[TeacherSyn]

[QUOTE=Spencerian;5195321]
DDO still offers quite a bit of balance. Why do I say this?/QUOTE]

because you like being wrong?

Now, as for forum balance, we've still not found enough acidic remarks or sufficient flaming retorts to quell some trolls. :) Methinks this one is over-balanced.

[Jaajoo]

capstones that are competitive with evasion

I agree.

[TeacherSyn]

The devs are defining how things are, they can fix the balance issues. Unfortunately I cannot affect to that more than just complaining that they have done ~nothing for it in years.

If you can fix balance by playing well, please play more.

Here's another perspective.

Ever thought that the imbalance you perceive is actually intended?

A "balanced" game is a boring one. The game is meant to imbalance you, to shake your complacency, to make you feel unprepared. Some traps in Epic Elite that don't appear elsewhere? That's to keep you on your toes. Not all classes can or will meet all requirements for a quest optimally. Else, D&D would have one class and one weapon and would never be what it is today.

So then you research, shore up your defenses, bring better offensive abilities, go back in that quest and gain the satisfaction of beating that sumbeotch.

There's not been any quest or raid that's unbeatable by design in DDO. If there were, then there would be an imbalance.

[Jaajoo]

A "balanced" game is a boring one. The game is meant to imbalance you...

I do not know what to say, so I just disagree.

"Teh Troll" might have something to add.