New to Arti - a few questins if you don't mind!

[Xianio]

Hello hello all,

I've got a handful of questions for this new build that I'm developing. It centers around Arti and has aspirations towards EE content.

The build in very basic terms is:
Arti/Pally/Wizard - Dwarf
15/2/3
Battle Engineer/KotC/Eldritch Knight/Dwarf
32/9/13/20 - With 6 to spare.

What makes this build different is that I intend to try and use Dwarven Fortress effectively. ie: Dwarven axe, fullplate and tower shield.
The idea is high Doublestrike with lots of +'s to flat and % damage for a nasty hard hitter with glancing blows, shield bashes and a some nice protections to boot.

So, onto the questions;

Is it possible to cast Deadly Weapons on a shield? I don't suspect it is but if I could that would be great. :)
Has anyone tried casting Deadly Weapons on Epic Templar's Retribution? I'd like to know if it becomes 3d10 or 2[2d10]
Do Deadly Weapons and Weapon Attachment stack or replace?
Would Wand and Scroll Mastery (from EK) be a good idea?
How well does Arti healing stack up in EE? (not warforged) Would I need to go Cocoon or would 50% elemental reduction from Energy Sheath be a good idea?

Thanks :)

[droid327]

-Nice in theory, but in practice your DPS with S&B will be lacking, and what you gain for it (higher AC and a moderate amount of bonus PRR) really doesn't do that much for you as you go further into the game.

-DW only casts on your mainhand weapon, so no...shield is always offhand

-The wiki looks like it has an old old screenshot; I'm pretty sure Epic Templar's Retribution is 2[1d10], so DW would just raise it to 3[1d10]

-DW and WA stack for +1.5[W], AFAIK

-WSM depends how much you're using scrolls and wands...odds are with that build you'll be scroll/wand healing a lot, so yes then.

-Arti healing (non-WF) does not exist for EE, basically. Construct Essence is a joke and a death sentence. Cure Serious Admixture is the best native positive energy healing you get, but its got a much longer cast time and cooldown than actual CSW; Cure Critical Admix has self-targeting problems, from what I found on Lama. So fleshie Arti healing basically means scroll heals and hireling heals. I'd definitely plan on going Cocoon.

[Xianio]

-Nice in theory, but in practice your DPS with S&B will be lacking, and what you gain for it (higher AC and a moderate amount of bonus PRR) really doesn't do that much for you as you go further into the game.

You're forgetting the glancing blows, bashes and 15% doublestrike, but that's okay. I enjoy S&B and the plan is to go Dwarf Fortress. I'll lay out the mathy expectations later once I finalize the questions. Then I'll ask you knowledgeable folk for input when it's all put together.



-DW only casts on your mainhand weapon, so no...shield is always offhand

Mhmm odd, now I have conflicting information. Bizarre. Have you tried this recently?



-The wiki looks like it has an old old screenshot; I'm pretty sure Epic Templar's Retribution is 2[1d10], so DW would just raise it to 3[1d10]


Most likely correct, 8d10 would have been insane. Looks like runner up goes to Deurgar Weapon Master axe




-Arti healing (non-WF) does not exist for EE, basically. Construct Essence is a joke and a death sentence. Cure Serious Admixture is the best native positive energy healing you get, but its got a much longer cast time and cooldown than actual CSW; Cure Critical Admix has self-targeting problems, from what I found on Lama. So fleshie Arti healing basically means scroll heals and hireling heals. I'd definitely plan on going Cocoon.

Mhmm again conflicting info. However, my first look numbers are supporting your conclusion. It looks like Cocoon might be required - which is too bad, 50% damage reduction would have been great.

[droid327]

You're forgetting the glancing blows, bashes and 15% doublestrike, but that's okay. I enjoy S&B and the plan is to go Dwarf Fortress. I'll lay out the mathy expectations later once I finalize the questions. Then I'll ask you knowledgeable folk for input when it's all put together.


I wasn't necessarily knocking the slower gameplay, if you enjoy a more defensive, deliberate playstyle, of course. I meant more that your decreased DPS (even with all those things you mentioned) relative to THF or TWF, meaning you spend longer in combat, and you end up taking more damage overall than if you went with a higher DPS build and killed them faster. Which seems to negate the whole purpose of a tank build :)

[Livmo]

Automated repairs will give some extra help for heal/repair. Seems to work great on others, but OK for me.

Arcanotechnician enhancements

Tier Three

Requires Artificer Level 3, 10 APs spent in tree

Automated Repairs: You have installed automated repair systems in your Iron Defender. It repairs itself/and you/and nearby allies 4d4+1 points of damage every 18/12/6 seconds. (NOTE: Testing suggests that it repairs you every 12 seconds at both rank 2 and rank 3, while the tooltip claims it repairs itself every 12, and you every 6, at rank 2. And it is repair, not heal, so you must benefit from repair to benefit from that aspect of the power.)

[Xianio]

decreased DPS (even with all those things you mentioned) relative to THF or TWF,

You might end up being surprised how close the TWF and S&B ends up being if you do it right! :D I just need to figure out how to force feed Shield Bashing into my build so I can get 45-50 damage every mainhand attack out of it. Why doesn't Arti. Imp. Crit. cover slashing?! *grump grump*


Question: How feasible is taking off a shield to heal/buff for a few seconds before putting it back on? I'm torn between 3 EK or 2 Fighter. 3 EK gives -20% arcane failure, which I feel is required if I must keep the shield on. Fighter gives tower shield for free and 2 useful feats + another level of Arti. so I can grab another free feat and another 6th level spell.

Any thoughts on swapping out a shield while casting the occasional buff/heal scroll? Doable or would that be a hotkey jungle gym for my fingers?

[Satyriasys]

-Arti healing (non-WF) does not exist for EE, basically. Construct Essence is a joke and a death sentence. Cure Serious Admixture is the best native positive energy healing you get, but its got a much longer cast time and cooldown than actual CSW; Cure Critical Admix has self-targeting problems, from what I found on Lama. So fleshie Arti healing basically means scroll heals and hireling heals. I'd definitely plan on going Cocoon.

I cannot agree with this. Construct essence has been all the healing I require on my ranged arti. Maybe not if I were tanking. If you have good repair spell power and repair skill reconstruct heals in the hundreds and follow it up with a quick repair critical when its on cooldown if needed.

[toaftoaf]

water baloons work ok if you know how to use them (all 3 needed really) self targeting is abit hard, but doable

[droid327]

Question: How feasible is taking off a shield to heal/buff for a few seconds before putting it back on? I'm torn between 3 EK or 2 Fighter. 3 EK gives -20% arcane failure, which I feel is required if I must keep the shield on. Fighter gives tower shield for free and 2 useful feats + another level of Arti. so I can grab another free feat and another 6th level spell.

Any thoughts on swapping out a shield while casting the occasional buff/heal scroll? Doable or would that be a hotkey jungle gym for my fingers?

Perfectly feasible if you want, IMO...its just going to be 2 more hotkeys.

Why do you need -20% ASF? You're talking 35% from Heavy Armor, 50% from Tower Shield, for 85%...knock off 10% from BE core, 15% from a Blue Augment, that's still 60% (what else am I forgetting?). Going down to 40% with EK really doesn't give an acceptable success rate for in-combat scroll heals, when you need them (since, of course, Arti spells aren't subject to ASF). And out of combat, no, its no big deal to swap out your shield.

I'd take the *3* extra feats (you do lose your free Wiz feat ~= Arti feat) plus Tac Det or especially BB (on a melee Arti) every time.


I cannot agree with this. Construct essence has been all the healing I require on my ranged arti. Maybe not if I were tanking. If you have good repair spell power and repair skill reconstruct heals in the hundreds and follow it up with a quick repair critical when its on cooldown if needed.

Have you actually played into Epic? When "in the hundreds" translates to "about two or three hits"? And your dog no longer works for holding aggro (or anything except lever pulling)? That's why I called it a death trap, its one of those things that works marvelously through Heroic but doesn't scale and leaves you completely unsuited for endgame.

The problem with CE is it leaves you weaker vs both Positive and Repair than WF are to either...

WF get 80% Positive (with racials, which are must-takes), 100% Repair
Fleshies get 100% Positive (or more with racials), 0% Repair
CEs get 50% repair, 75% heal. So you're worse than a WF in BOTH categories. And no way to boost your Repair Amp.

Even soloing, you're better off with 100% Positive and a healbot hireling/UMD scrolls/CSWA/Cocoon at full power, than a -25% penalty to all those for half-powered Recons. The main reason being, later in the game, Cocoon and hireling/groupmate heals will be your primary heals and half a Recon doesn't cut it anymore...at best you're treading water, you take as much damage as it heals over the cooldown period.

[kned225]

Mhmm again conflicting info. However, my first look numbers are supporting your conclusion. It looks like Cocoon might be required - which is too bad, 50% damage reduction would have been great.


I'll just keep it simple...You're gonna get hammered...and hard, in EEs. Even with cocoon, its not gonna be pretty

Why? Because you're using the worst defensive option for tank (s&b), the worst dps option for a melee (again s&b), the worst healing option (25/50 penalty) along with the worst strategy for EEs (get in their face)

[Xianio]

I'll just keep it simple...You're gonna get hammered...and hard, in EEs. Even with cocoon, its not gonna be pretty

Why? Because you're using the worst defensive option for tank (s&b), the worst dps option for a melee (again s&b), the worst healing option (25/50 penalty) along with the worst strategy for EEs (get in their face)

The S&B option is for offense, not tanking. Once I make sure that I know how everything interacts I'll post the build, complete with DPS gained from using a shield instead of a different weapon. Shield's have never been as good as they are now for offense and it's very clear that after YEARS of **** poor offensive shield options the groundwork for that has been laid thick.

Until I get around to posting that though you'll just have to wait. :)


what else am I forgetting?

You're forgetting a pair of gloves that gives another -10% and, even though I doubt it works this way, both armor and shield have blue slots so "maybe" both can be reduced by 15%... but I doubt it.

Unfortunately I hadn't realized that Construct Essence was required for Weapon Attunement. Not that it's an issue feat wise but it certainly weakens my healing options - probably too much.

However that really doesn't break the build, and even helps it defensively. I get another 7 AP back which I can then dump into +shield dex bonus. I might be able to pull out 10. Pretty spiffy all told. If that's the route I take I'd end up with only a 10% greater chance of being hit (assuming AC doesn't help at all) but 30-40 more PRR than the average.

[Satyriasys]

Have you actually played into Epic? When "in the hundreds" translates to "about two or three hits"? And your dog no longer works for holding aggro (or anything except lever pulling)? That's why I called it a death trap, its one of those things that works marvelously through Heroic but doesn't scale and leaves you completely unsuited for endgame.

The problem with CE is it leaves you weaker vs both Positive and Repair than WF are to either...

WF get 80% Positive (with racials, which are must-takes), 100% Repair
Fleshies get 100% Positive (or more with racials), 0% Repair
CEs get 50% repair, 75% heal. So you're worse than a WF in BOTH categories. And no way to boost your Repair Amp.

Even soloing, you're better off with 100% Positive and a healbot hireling/UMD scrolls/CSWA/Cocoon at full power, than a -25% penalty to all those for half-powered Recons. The main reason being, later in the game, Cocoon and hireling/groupmate heals will be your primary heals and half a Recon doesn't cut it anymore...at best you're treading water, you take as much damage as it heals over the cooldown period.

Yes. My Human Artificer is my preferred character for running EE. While Construct Essence needs an epic version or an enhancement which improves it, it is still very viable. You told the op that this feat was a joke and a trap and I only wanted to let him know that some people are successfully running the most difficult content in game using Construct Essence as their only form of healing.

[Livmo]

Yes. My Human Artificer is my preferred character for running EE. While Construct Essence needs an epic version or an enhancement which improves it, it is still very viable. You told the op that this feat was a joke and a trap and I only wanted to let him know that some people are successfully running the most difficult content in game using Construct Essence as their only form of healing.

I use human arty the most in EE. I like Construct Essence. I buff my repair spell power.

[unbongwah]

It centers around Arti and has aspirations towards EE content.
While I salute your theorycrafting instincts, I strongly suggest you get one of your characters to epic levels before you try to get too creative with your build ideas. Until you experience EEs first-hand and spend some time working on EDs, it's hard to understand what your builds really require to thrive.

"Training is useful. But there is no substitute for experience."

[Xianio]

While I salute your theorycrafting instincts, I strongly suggest you get one of your characters to epic levels before you try to get too creative with your build ideas. Until you experience EEs first-hand and spend some time working on EDs, it's hard to understand what your builds really require to thrive.

"Training is useful. But there is no substitute for experience."

Absolutely. This build in working on can't actually be built by me for quite some time or without a cash investment. That said, I've already started the fun build version ie 28 points, 0 past lives. The goal is to craft the "best" version of the build then critique that. Any less gets into to many arbitrary problems (like many shot being left out while planning a slot for it for the +4 tome).

EE content is super hard so some basic baselines exist. Might as well see if the build can check those boxes when it's at its best. Otherwise you waste a TON of time for an experience that will never come.

[Singular]

Wow, sounds like an interesting build. I have a couple thoughts:

I play human arties - I have two. One uses construct essence, one does not. I can see the feasibility either way, but I've honestly grown used to the one who doesn't use it. It used to be that we had easy access to boosting heal scrolls, making no construct essence more usable. However, in its absence, I think construct essence will be fine.

That said, you're a dwarf. You're going to have tons of hit points. I do perfectly fine on my artie w/out construct essence in EE content using just rejuvenation cocoon and heal scrolls. And hit points helps - the greater your hp are, the easier they are to manage via cocoon. Likewise, construct essence will make cocoon not work as well - mind you, you could simply use reconstruct or whatever. That will limit your sp in some ways, though.

Anyways, I solo lots of EE quests via aggro management and careful use of cocoon plus heal scrolls and the panic Crystal Cove rum :)

So let us know how it turns out! How is your build working for you? How do you find EE content?

[Xianio]

Not even close to it ;)

I'm limited by a 28 point build for now and this significantly improves with 32 points/tomes. I've let this fall by the way-side but I'll post the actual full build for critique this weekend.