Questions...

[Llewndyn]

Ran a couple PUGs this life, and maybe I've been off soloing and doing guild-only runs, but has the general etiquette of the game changed? You be the judge:

Scenario 1. Ran an elite PoP PUG, we get in, I'm having a blast killificating stuff with my newly-acquired instadeath spells. They consume SP quite quickly, especially when I'm really the only one killing anything, so we get to the lightning room and I say I will stay out and pull lever then go shrine. The cleric is standing outside with me, looking at me then at the room like an idiot, like he had no idea what he was supposed to do. I watched the group in the room hit a couple buffs, stop moving, wait 15 seconds by watching my buff bar, then hit switch and run up. I think the cleric was trying to move just far enough in that I'd pull the lever thinking he was in, then he could jump out and not have to risk dying. First, is it possible to die in the lightning room? All the air eles do is throw you around, so stand in a corner and you're golden? Apparently it IS possible. Everyone dies in the room, and the cleric had moved too far in and fried himself on the door I think. The following ensues:

PL: "Why would you do that, what are you, 5?"
Me: "???"
GM1 (sorc): "Why didn't you ask and make sure we were all ready, you're a ******" (paraphrasing)
Me: "You all buffed, and weren't moving, I assumed you were ready. Not sure how you even die in there"

I go in and clear the room out with no fanfare. They try to get me killed in Lailat room, but because I'm not a complete gimp I manage to kill the room off in short order. I think in order to show me how it's done, this SAME EXACT CONVERSATION ensued at every door from then on out:

GM1 (at lever): "Is everyone ready?"
PL: "I believe so, I think we are ready"
GM1: "Does everyone have buffs?"
PL/others: "Yes, yes I have buffs"
GM1: "OK I'm going to pull lever now, be ready everyone"

ARE YOU FRIGGIN KIDDING ME?! Pathetic. If you can't do a room in Prison of the Planes, with 3 other people in said room with you, don't blame me. It's not my fault. I can do a room on my own. I could LONG before I got decent gear or completionist. Gimme a break.

Is it now known etiquette to go through 11 levels and ways of asking if everyone is ready before doing anything? How pathetic has PUGging become if that's the case?!

Who was in the right here?

Scenario 2: We are doing an elite Rainbow run, which went really well, get to the end, make short work of the end boss, and people are looting chests. In order to show I am a team player and not a tool, I cast Greater Teleport on the group and zone back to Meridia with everyone. The sorc pipes up and says "thanks to whatever a**hat cast GT, I didn't get end chest"... ***?!

Greater Teleport gives you 58 seconds to click Accept. In that time, you can swap weapons, make sweet love to your partner, check inventory, raid buff, and STILL have 40 seconds to teleport! If it's not what you want you can also click....DECLINE. I respond with something like "It's not my fault you are dumb. I will take your statement as a compliment, thanks!" and drop party. Is it now rude to cast greater Teleport? Because if so I could have saved a ton of plat not buying a stack of said scrolls...

Who was in the right here?

Scenario 3: RWTD elite run, we get in, the group is just not mechanically able to blast through, and I'm not helping a whole lot as I don't have enough death spells to spam them and in wraith mode I'm kind of susceptible (300 damage per hit hurts, no matter WHO you are). I figure I will break streak (893.... sniff) and run it on hard, and everyone is cool with that (we didn't have a healer, and I had no pots, so switching to alive mode was not an option, I would have been a burden on the party). Then people start dropping, leaving me, a ranger (who was awesome) and a bard. I say let's hop in on hard, and he complains that it will break his streak and he needs his streak and why can't we run it on elite? I mention he has no say in the matter as he hasn't contributed anything yet, and he drops group. Here is why this is on here:

a) When he joined, he asked for a share. To a walk-up.
b) When told it was a walk-up, he complained he could not get into the Vale. After some back and forth, he had never been to Gustavine. We spent the latter half of Ritsac guiding him there.
c) Once IN the Vale, he died twice trying to run to Meridia. He then asked for help getting out as he couldnt kill anything.

I sent him a tell informing him "don't worry bud, I'm sure some group will run this and let you pike and contribute nothing and you'll get to cap real soon. Have a nice night!" I'm really kind of sick of the streak BS. If you can't pull your own weight even a LITTLE bit, you don't need to be on a streak. I KNEW RWTD would be tough for me because of my build choices. I refused to use the PM light damage absorbtion enhancement, opting to run on Hard and get it over with instead. I refuse to pike and have others run the quest for me, but it appears to be a common theme: so many people demand an elite streak when they couldn't complete 2 quests in a row on hard no matter which 2 quests they are. They get into a run, and if the rest of the group doesn't do the quest for them or they run into ANY adversity, they leave and find a group willing to let them actipike (actipike means you run along with the group, maybe cast haste or throw the odd heal, but other than that shield block or do nothing) and get all the way to cap and we end up with a further cheapening of the TR process. I'm trying to figure out which one is less detrimental to the game: People who hog out Otto's boxes each life or people who actipike their way through 5 lives then get all whiny when they can't finish a quest and blame Turbine, other players who used to pull them through, lag, or an odd combination.

Who was in the right here?

I'm looking forward to a spirited debate, and am willing to concede if there is a genuine change in etiquette that puts me in the wrong, though I am hard pressed to see that happening. Thanks for reading, have a nice day.

[Kawai]

never seen anyone write themselves up with multiple examples of being classic tool.
congrats.

[Llewndyn]

never seen anyone write themselves up with multiple examples of being classic tool.
congrats.

I can see you looked real close at why I wrote what I did. It's great to get such thoughtful responses.

I don't believe I was being a tool. If I go into one of the rooms in PoP, and buff, then stand there, I am ready to go. I assumed that was common knowledge. Apparently it's not. I want to know why.
If someone casts greater teleport on me, and I haven't looted the chest yet, I loot the chest and take it, or hit decline. I assumed that was common knowledge. Apparently it's not. I want to know why.
If I can't hold my own and have no idea how to get to a quest, I probably wouldn't run it on elite if the rest of the group, all of which have way more HP/ SP than me, just died running it and they KNOW HOW TO GET THERE. I would not whine about a hard run if I knew I could not do an elite run on my own or contribute much to the successful running of an elite quest. I assumed that was common knowledge. Apparently it's not. I want to know why.

Are my responses mean? Yep. Are they elitist? Probably. Would I do them again if given another chance? Absolutely. Do I feel remorse or that I'm in the wrong? Nope.

That doesn't mean I'm NOT in the wrong, though. Explain how I am in the wrong in any of these scenarios, maybe I'm missing something. If I am a "classic tool", and I PUG a LOT, I would have more stories. But I don't. I just wondered if maybe something changed recently that I was unaware of, and I'm tired of people being/ doing stupid and letting them get away with it. No one let ME get away with it when I was coming up in this game, and rather than whine and assume everyone else was the problem I learned from each mistake and criticism, even if I changed nothing because of it.

In closing, thanks for responding, and I hope you will come back and explain a little more, as if I AM being a tool, I would like to see how, and maybe suppress it.

Love,
Llew

[Fedora1]

Scenario 1 - I'd have to hear their side of the story. It might seem like you waited long enough, but then again we only have your word.
Verdict: Undecided.

Scenario 2 - You were in no way to blame for the other idiot accepting the GT before he looted the chests.
Verdict: Innocent.

Scenario 3 - Might have been better once the bard dropped group to let that be the end of the story instead of sending him the tell.
Verdict: Justified but not classy.

[Miow]

Let me try to be a little nicer, you make some valid points but being harsh with people and how you communicate with them can completely make your feelings irrelevant regardless of validity.

[Wipey]

Heh so you got couple lives under your belt, learned to run stuff faster and faster, learned to make better builds and more things are annoying you than when you was a first lifer.
It appears everybody else is so slow or butthurt primadonnas.
In other news, water is wet.

[Bowser_Koopa]

Llewndyn has become an elitist, I'm not sure if I should be happy about this or sad. I could go dig up earlier posts where Llewndyn defended the casual/noob population and now he has graduated to the expecting people to only hit his LFM if they "Know it".

This seems to be natural progression of Vet characters according to DDO forumites. I personally don't believe it happens 100% of the time but hey it happens.

But to answer your 3 scenario questions you aren't wrong or right. You clearly have reached the point where you are trying to give puggers regardless of who they are credit for learning all the things you have been taught or learned yourself without accepting the possibility that they simply may not have the knowledge, gear or player skill to do the things that now come naturally to you.

So either you'll learn to post LFM's that say BYOH or Know It or Zerg Run only or the other multitude of catchphrases veterans and/or elitist use to try to get only other like people to join the LFM and not delay your quest to beat the quest in what you feel is an acceptable amount of time and/or resources.

Or maybe you will accept that others may not have your skill or knowledge and need a helping hand and be willing to help them.

Just for clarification I fall into the first crowd, while I don't hate teaching "noobs" etc with my limited playtime I generally just want to get X amount of things done in Y time as fast as possible.

Bowserkoopa,

Watching the Elitist population grow one person at a time.

[kned225]

By your own admission, you're a mean elitist. You shouldn't be grouping with newbs. Leave that to the vets who have the patience and desire to deal with the ups and downs of newb-grouping

Time to brush-up on those elitist, exclusionary lfms and enjoy the company of your own kind

[Kawai]

...especially when I'm really the only one killing anything...


...looking at me then at the room like an idiot



PL: "Why would you do that, what are you, 5?"
Me: "???"
GM1 (sorc): "Why didn't you ask and make sure we were all ready, you're a ******" (paraphrasing)
Me: "You all buffed, and weren't moving, I assumed you were ready. Not sure how you even die in there"


Whole conversation reeks.
-Cant see them being ready if that's the complaint from more than one person.

And since only your side of story, expected some embellishing. --np.
-but the embellishments show your maturity level in your replies.
They died, obviously, from the gate itself.

any "completionist" would know this.
what's more.... any Veteran/Leader/"Completionist" wouldn't be involved in this kind of drama or even think of bringing it here.
i suspect, could b wrong, many Stones r involved IF actual completionist?
...even so. takes all kinds.


...I go in and clear the room out with no fanfare. They try to get me killed in Lailat room, but because I'm not a complete gimp I manage to kill the room off in short order.

so many examples in two sentences. *rolls eyes


...ARE YOU FRIGGIN KIDDING ME?! Pathetic.

and again.

then, u seek validation for it.
Who was in the right here?


..."It's not my fault you are dumb. I will take your statement as a compliment, thanks!" and drop party. Is it now rude to cast greater Teleport?

Been known for long time that one doesn't cast it directly on chest.
if accidental, a simple Im sorry would suffice, would it not?
instead, another tantrum, and come here to seek validation.

Next, your entire Scenario 3 is just boiling over with Immaturity from someone claiming to be Veteran/Leader.

Cant see anyone with that kind of experience acting like you did.
-not to mention the rude & mean things you said to a person who is obviously new to the quest.

Would you act like this in public?

whatever.
Sad.

[Enoach]

Ran a couple PUGs this life, and maybe I've been off soloing and doing guild-only runs, but has the general etiquette of the game changed? You be the judge:

Scenario 1. ...
Who was in the right here?

Scenario 2: ...
Who was in the right here?

Scenario 3: ...
Who was in the right here?

I'm looking forward to a spirited debate, and am willing to concede if there is a genuine change in etiquette that puts me in the wrong, though I am hard pressed to see that happening. Thanks for reading, have a nice day.

Scenario 1: On the pulling the lever which you group felt was too soon, and by the evidence of the Cleric not being in the room. The wrong in this situation is not the action you took by assumption, that was a misunderstanding. The wrong is in the attitude expressed by both parties.

Scenario 2: The Greater Teleport at the end of a Vale quest is very appreciated by many players, but might I suggest that you can avoid this situation by simply standing back from the chest before you cast a spell that puts up a dialog that in some cases prevents any other action especially when there are "Are you Sure?" messages popping up. While I agree the "No" button is easy to press and it is on the player to press the right button. But again you can avoid this type of drama by being more practical and realize not everyone is as fast as you in looting. Providing the GT was not the issue, it was the timing.

Scenario 3: As the PL you set what difficulty you wanted to run the quest, you notified the party of your intent. As can be expected some left because they wanted to do this on a different difficulty. The continuing of the conversation after the person left the group was by no means a positive on this encounter with someone not at the same level as you in the game. However, that will be their impression of people like yourself (generally causing a tainted view of that group).

As a note about the amount of death spells available for RWTD; I've found that Greater Shout (while not a DPS spell) helps to equalize the fights against the Eladrin. It may not be glamorous but it can go a long way in reducing the damage taken by the whole party. You took the step of picking a difficulty you felt the party you had could survive, but you can also go one step further by adding additional survivability to your party.

[Memnir]

You should solo more. That's the only takeaway I get from the whole OP.
If other people annoy you so much, and if you are (seemingly) unable to interact in a sociable manner with people of lower sill sets then yours... Yeah, solo more.


Frankly, the only scenario that I think you are totally absolved of is the Greater Teleport thing. That's on them. The others are very debatable where the blame should rest. Honestly, I think you are as much to blame for what happened as the other folks in the party... just in different ways. If you cannot have empathy for newer or less skilled players - remove them from the equation and just solo.

I'm not saying that as a bad thing. I mostly solo myself these days. For different reasons, maybe, but I still solo more then I group. If and when I do group, I let go of my preconceived notions of skill and preparedness on the behalf of the rest of the party. I expect things to go wrong, and have to engage in teaching moments, and know that silly things may happen. That's what is wonderful about PUGs... they are a total grab-bag of skill and readiness. But, if you cannot do likewise, then perhaps it's time to give the PUG scene a break for a while.



My opinions only - your mileage will no doubt vary.

[voodoogroves]

I tend to not post 'BYOH' and isntead go with "in progress".

This lead to an ADQ earlier today where someone joins, zones in to the sands and asks where the quest is.

I try not to be too much of a jerk, but X things in Y time....

[Llewndyn]

Scenario 1 - I'd have to hear their side of the story. It might seem like you waited long enough, but then again we only have your word.
Verdict: Undecided.

Scenario 2 - You were in no way to blame for the other idiot accepting the GT before he looted the chests.
Verdict: Innocent.

Scenario 3 - Might have been better once the bard dropped group to let that be the end of the story instead of sending him the tell.
Verdict: Justified but not classy.

And that's what I was hoping to get at. I really have wondered if maybe I was in the wrong and this was how etiquette has changed, kind of like how HoX changed after EDs came out or what have you. I haven't PUGged a bunch of PoP runs since then, so I have nothing to quantify it against.

The bard one, I admit, was not particularly classy, but it hit a nerve. We had already wiped, he had contributed nothing but whining about having to run back to the Twelve, and it really gets on my nerves when someone is lazy and just EXPECTS things to be handed to them. I would prefer someone join and try hard and die, over and over and over again, and keep trying, than someone who is used to being useless, joining and expecting to pike through an elite streak. I had an 893 quest streak, and I worked or helped with every quest. Even when I was useless for DPS, I found a way to contribute, be it buffs, rez, heck even grabbing aggro and dying so the group could take on the boss and get a few free minutes without trash to contend with. This guy smacked of "I would never lower myself to running something on hard", and he had no idea how hard the quest was on elite because he couldn't stay alive long enough to get there. Even with just hearing my side, the deaths and issues even getting into the Vale are irrefutable. How much would he have been able to contribute? While I could be wrong, and even if he added 0 to kills or DPS he might have been a CC powerhouse, so you have a valid point, but I was still annoyed and am tired of letting people just be obtuse and get away with it because the vast majority of the server population is way too polite to call them on it.

If I join your PUG, go in and die doing something stupid, you can all feel free to call me on it, SS and post it to the forums, and I will accept those consequences. It happens, and I deserve what happens. But what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and I will call you out on it when you can't make it to a quest, half the party leaves because the quest is too tough, you've obviously never run it since you had no idea how to get to it or how to get to the area you need to access in order TO get to it, but demand the group carry you through elite so you can get free XP.

[Llewndyn]

Heh so you got couple lives under your belt, learned to run stuff faster and faster, learned to make better builds and more things are annoying you than when you was a first lifer.
It appears everybody else is so slow or butthurt primadonnas.
In other news, water is wet.

Not true. I have zero problem running things slowly. I had 0 problem with the PoP group if they had told me they weren't ready yet. I said what I was going to do, then waited for them to buff, then told the cleric to hop in, he didn't, I waited 15 seconds, what more could I have done?

In the second, the group was AWESOME. The run took 35 minutes, which is not super fast, but for the most part everyone used great teamwork and no one got left behind, which is why I was caught off guard when the sorc in question jumped my case at the end.

The last one, I will concede I was a bit of a d-bag, but as I said, it hit a nerve. Sue me.

[Fedora1]

You mixed up two of my verdicts I think.

I said on the bard one (scenario 3) you were justified, but probably should not have sent the last tell.

It was scenario 1 I said I needed to hear the other side of the story.

[Llewndyn]

Llewndyn has become an elitist, I'm not sure if I should be happy about this or sad. I could go dig up earlier posts where Llewndyn defended the casual/noob population and now he has graduated to the expecting people to only hit his LFM if they "Know it".

This seems to be natural progression of Vet characters according to DDO forumites. I personally don't believe it happens 100% of the time but hey it happens.

But to answer your 3 scenario questions you aren't wrong or right. You clearly have reached the point where you are trying to give puggers regardless of who they are credit for learning all the things you have been taught or learned yourself without accepting the possibility that they simply may not have the knowledge, gear or player skill to do the things that now come naturally to you.

So either you'll learn to post LFM's that say BYOH or Know It or Zerg Run only or the other multitude of catchphrases veterans and/or elitist use to try to get only other like people to join the LFM and not delay your quest to beat the quest in what you feel is an acceptable amount of time and/or resources.

Or maybe you will accept that others may not have your skill or knowledge and need a helping hand and be willing to help them.

Just for clarification I fall into the first crowd, while I don't hate teaching "noobs" etc with my limited playtime I generally just want to get X amount of things done in Y time as fast as possible.

Bowserkoopa,

Watching the Elitist population grow one person at a time.

As a first/second/third+ life character, I never demanded others do quests that I knew I would not be able to contribute to. I ran them on difficulties I could handle first, and worked my way up. I'm an elitist for expecting other people to do the same?

I bend over backwards (it's an expensive enhancement, costs 3 AP) to help new players. Not by giving them plat so I have another notch on my yuletide log every Christmas, but because I believe in the "if you help them, they will return the favor and the server will be a gooderer place" mantra. This is 3 examples of times I did not ignore silly questions or try to help teach people, and I think that's pretty good odds. I can post about the dozens of PUGs I join where I have John Stamos teach people life lessons while I play an acoustic guitar in the background, but who wants to read that tripe?

The irony of me being a "noob defender" who now seems quite elitist is not lost on me, and it's something I wrestle with daily. I don't consider myself an elitist, because I don't:

1. Join a group and link a bunch of epic items I can't use just to make people feel inferior
2. Remind people over and over how many lives I've done as some idiotic justification for my behavior
3. Insult everyone for every little infraction, perceived or real
4. Come to the forums and write whiny... wait
5. Play the elusive bardcherarti
6. Have a toon in Ravensguard (why do you keep denying my application?!)

For those reasons, and because I have no facial hair (and all bad guys have facial hair and cut off jorts with chained wallets), I consider myself a benevolent new player helper, nothing more.

[Teh_Troll]

So the OP managed to find groups full of people less experienced than he was and had to come here to make us think he was a competent player?

Fascinating . . .

[Teh_Troll]

By your own admission, you're a mean elitist. You shouldn't be grouping with newbs. Leave that to the vets who have the patience and desire to deal with the ups and downs of newb-grouping

Time to brush-up on those elitist, exclusionary lfms and enjoy the company of your own kind

LOLz . . . the other elitists won't run with him.

[Llewndyn]

And since only your side of story, expected some embellishing. --np.
-but the embellishments show your maturity level in your replies.
They died, obviously, from the gate itself.

I'll ignore the maturity level quip, that's not very nice. There is no embellishing, thus the quotes around what they said. It IS from memory, but it's implied that if I put quotes around it, I'm not embellishing things. When I went back to rez, only the cleric's stone was in the gate. The other ones were in the back of the room, toward the middle. It's possible they hit the gate, ran from it and got 2nd hit killed, though, so that could be true. I was at the shrine, so was not there to see.


any "completionist" would know this.
what's more.... any Veteran/Leader/"Completionist" wouldn't be involved in this kind of drama or even think of bringing it here.
i suspect, could b wrong, many Stones r involved IF actual completionist?
...even so. takes all kinds.

Once you attain completionist/ vet status, you do not learn supreme Shaolin patience. It DOES take all kinds. You obviously know few if any completionists or veterans. They/We are all people too, with varying dispositions and mannerisms. To imply that as a completionist or vet I must now be above all drama is short-sighted and incorrect. I can't read your second sentence, so am going to guess you are implying I died quite a bit on my way to completionist? I did. I died. A lot. I never blamed anyone else for it. I don't blame lag for it. I died because I rolled a 1 or I screwed up or I wasn't ready when I should have been. Implying that new players don't need to bring any accountability to the table is asinine. Also, I am asking in my post if things had changed. You could have responded with "Yes, this is how it is now" and I would be fine with that, and would go into PUGs assuming they would act like the above people and plan accordingly. Attacking me like I forced them to suck is lame. Were you the sorc in the second example?


Next, your entire Scenario 3 is just boiling over with Immaturity from someone claiming to be Veteran/Leader.

Please re-read my post. Where do I claim I'm the leader? I'll concede I was a bit of a jerk in my response to him but it's alright for him to demand we run a quest for him so he can pike? And I'M the immature one? Got it.


Would you act like this in public? If someone acted like some of these people (entitled, ungrateful) in public, yes, I would, can, and have responded rudely to them in public. Maybe it would be nicer to ignore it and just smile and walk away, but in these few instances I did not do that. Also I note you ignore in scenario 1 where in order to get back at me they let me go into the Lailat room first then backed up and hit the lever, hoping to kill me. I don't need validation, I was asking if maybe something had changed because I hadn't PUGged for a couple months, not often, any way. If you are nice to me, I am nice back. If you are rude to me, I don't care HOW many lives I've done, I'm going to be rude back.

[Teh_Ghoul]

Don't cast gt, some people will even report you to gms for it. I will never learn the spell or buy the scroll again. Sucks for the normal people that might have appreciated it.

[Llewndyn]

Scenario 1: On the pulling the lever which you group felt was too soon, and by the evidence of the Cleric not being in the room. The wrong in this situation is not the action you took by assumption, that was a misunderstanding. The wrong is in the attitude expressed by both parties.

Scenario 2: The Greater Teleport at the end of a Vale quest is very appreciated by many players, but might I suggest that you can avoid this situation by simply standing back from the chest before you cast a spell that puts up a dialog that in some cases prevents any other action especially when there are "Are you Sure?" messages popping up. While I agree the "No" button is easy to press and it is on the player to press the right button. But again you can avoid this type of drama by being more practical and realize not everyone is as fast as you in looting. Providing the GT was not the issue, it was the timing.

Scenario 3: As the PL you set what difficulty you wanted to run the quest, you notified the party of your intent. As can be expected some left because they wanted to do this on a different difficulty. The continuing of the conversation after the person left the group was by no means a positive on this encounter with someone not at the same level as you in the game. However, that will be their impression of people like yourself (generally causing a tainted view of that group).

As a note about the amount of death spells available for RWTD; I've found that Greater Shout (while not a DPS spell) helps to equalize the fights against the Eladrin. It may not be glamorous but it can go a long way in reducing the damage taken by the whole party. You took the step of picking a difficulty you felt the party you had could survive, but you can also go one step further by adding additional survivability to your party.

I agree with all of your points. I cast GT a little close to the chest, but thats because the group was close to the chest and I was in a hurry to move on to the next quest. As for the third scenario, I didn't feel it necessary to add in all the back and forth, but the impression I got was the bard felt entitled to an elite completion, and was annoyed we weren't going to do it on elite. I said 3 times we were going to do hard, each time him whining about how he needs elite. I can see how what I did could be construed as wrong though from reading your responses. Thank you.

RE: Greater Shout: I never thought of that. I was using hypnotize and FoD and Circle of Death and PK, and they were hitting, but the cooldowns make it so in between those I was really just laying down ice storm and jumping around like an idiot, the whole time thinking "There has to be a better way"... will give that a try.

[Llewndyn]

LOLz . . . the other elitists won't run with him.

It hurts!

I never said I was elite anything, and I would have made this post my first and second lives. I don't quite get how people not using common sense (if a dialogue box comes up asking if you want to teleport to Meridia, and you haven't looted the chest yet, why would you click yes?) somehow makes me a wannabe elitist. If If you are an elitist, I would rather solo, I'd probably be done with the quest before you were finished talking yourself up and linking lame items everyone got (what is with people linking Pinion all the time? People who are under 20?), so there's that. I do enjoy your troll though, I felt this annoyance rise up within me just seeing that you had responded before I even read what you wrote, and I was not disappointed. +1!

[Bowser_Koopa]

As a first/second/third+ life character, I never demanded others do quests that I knew I would not be able to contribute to. I ran them on difficulties I could handle first, and worked my way up. I'm an elitist for expecting other people to do the same?

I bend over backwards (it's an expensive enhancement, costs 3 AP) to help new players. Not by giving them plat so I have another notch on my yuletide log every Christmas, but because I believe in the "if you help them, they will return the favor and the server will be a gooderer place" mantra. This is 3 examples of times I did not ignore silly questions or try to help teach people, and I think that's pretty good odds. I can post about the dozens of PUGs I join where I have John Stamos teach people life lessons while I play an acoustic guitar in the background, but who wants to read that tripe?

The irony of me being a "noob defender" who now seems quite elitist is not lost on me, and it's something I wrestle with daily. I don't consider myself an elitist, because I don't:

1. Join a group and link a bunch of epic items I can't use just to make people feel inferior
2. Remind people over and over how many lives I've done as some idiotic justification for my behavior
3. Insult everyone for every little infraction, perceived or real
4. Come to the forums and write whiny... wait
5. Play the elusive bardcherarti
6. Have a toon in Ravensguard (why do you keep denying my application?!)

For those reasons, and because I have no facial hair (and all bad guys have facial hair and cut off jorts with chained wallets), I consider myself a benevolent new player helper, nothing more.

So lets see point 1 (makes a note to learn how to type in different colors in other peoples quotes)

Yes by expecting others do not spend time learning quests or using the wiki or other forms of knowledge prior to joining your group on Elite you are an Elitist. I don't really understand this but it appears to be the popular idea amongst those who started the label of elitist etc. Apparently we live in Instant Gratification world where you the vet are responsible for making sure the new player knows everything and doesn't die etc. Again I'm not sure when this became the "Norm" just an observation I've had in the many years of playing this game.

Next even if you help noobs any time you don't help noobs or don't help them enough you are an elitist. Not sure when this one happened either but hey it's the law live with it.

1. Join a group and link a bunch of epic items I can't use just to make people feel inferior
If you meet anyone who does this they aren't really an Elitist they are just well a not nice word lets say italian short plumber with an M on his hat.

2. Remind people over and over how many lives I've done as some idiotic justification for my behavior
Again atleast in the circles I run in I never see these sorts of people if they are out there, I demand they stop referring to themselves at Elitist

3. Insult everyone for every little infraction, perceived or real
Admittedly sometimes for fun we do this in Ravensguard

4. Come to the forums and write whiny... wait
I prefer to come to the forums and post that the mobs in this game are mistreated and need buffs that aren't just more HP's

5. Play the elusive bardcherarti
I haven't seen one of these bardcherarti's and I hope I never do and they are not Elitist in my evil overlord opinion

6. Have a toon in Ravensguard (why do you keep denying my application?!)
While I am the Great Evil overlord of Ravensguard I don't handle recruiting that goes through Rit, amazingly they have denied my request to rename the guild "The Koopa Troopa's" as well but that's another story.

So in closing no matter how nice you are someone in this game will find some way to tick you off. Someone will call you an elitist. Some other players don't want to put in "work" in the game they just want to have fun sign on and do a dungeon with no forward knowledge with their Cha based barbarian. And lastly at some point you just have to play the game the way you want and not project it on others in any way because they are not you and we'll never know why they sign on to an online game that resembles dnd 3.5 instead of enjoying another MMO or real life or plotting to rid the mushroom kingdom of a guy who is so annoying his name is Mario Mario

Bowserkoopa,

People tell me I hate noobs, at this point I go along with it because apparently no matter what you do once you become a vet your an elitist jerk

[Jasparion]

By your own admission, you're a mean elitist. You shouldn't be grouping with newbs.

Because newbs should be running Elites. And that is his fault.

[Sothary]

Sigh... How many days til Christmas? Oh sup Koop!

[Bowser_Koopa]

Hi Soth long time no see

[Knight_slayer]

Hmmm.... pugs, puggers! Nothing has changed. Pugs are exactly as they have always been, completely random. I quite enjoy the randomness of pugging. Just not sure how you get upset because a pugger did something unexpected! A pugger was gimp! OMG... Everyone who joins pick up groups has a bunch stories of someone doing/saying something strange. Something unexpected. They also have stories about meeting really good players. As well as everything in between
Ran a couple PUGs this life, and maybe I've been off soloing and doing guild-only runsI imagine you never pugged before, or not in a long time.

[chester99]

You should solo more. That's the only takeaway I get from the whole OP. If other people annoy you so much, and if you are (seemingly) unable to interact in a sociable manner with people of lower sill sets then yours... Yeah, solo more. Frankly, the only scenario that I think you are totally absolved of is the Greater Teleport thing. That's on them. The others are very debatable where the blame should rest. Honestly, I think you are as much to blame for what happened as the other folks in the party... just in different ways. If you cannot have empathy for newer or less skilled players - remove them from the equation and just solo. I'm not saying that as a bad thing. I mostly solo myself these days. For different reasons, maybe, but I still solo more then I group. If and when I do group, I let go of my preconceived notions of skill and preparedness on the behalf of the rest of the party. I expect things to go wrong, and have to engage in teaching moments, and know that silly things may happen. That's what is wonderful about PUGs... they are a total grab-bag of skill and readiness. But, if you cannot do likewise, then perhaps it's time to give the PUG scene a break for a while. My opinions only - your mileage will no doubt vary.False. And while I'm sure someone typed up a similar response to Neville Chamberlain just before his trip to Munich, advice like this is what causes the problem. We can not accept the tards doing tard things. If we do, we're no better than those who let the Germans march over Europe. They need to be called on it and come away with a clear understanding that stupidity is worse than genocide, in a gaming sense. And I'm talking about a gaming sense here: if your mission in play is to be terrible and suck the fun from every aspect of this game, you are stoking the ovens of MMO gaming, ready to push poor folks who still try to PUG into them.Stop the madness. When you see bad plan, let it be known. Things will never get better without that.

[Erofen]

...(makes a note to learn how to type in different colors in other peoples quotes)...
We'll, when you press reply with quote hit the advanced or partly advanced version. (There is a setting is personal preferences thing or whatever you can find on side list when opening PM inbox.)
From there, you should see when replying a bunch of buttons at the type like Font or A. (The color one.)
Then from there proceed to type in whatever color you want between [ QUOTE = ? ] and [ / QUOTE ] .
Hope that helps!

~Somewhat Friendly Neighborhood Halfling

Answer in quote.

[Llewndyn]

Hmmm.... pugs, puggers! Nothing has changed. Pugs are exactly as they have always been, completely random. I quite enjoy the randomness of pugging. Just not sure how you get upset because a pugger did something unexpected! A pugger was gimp! OMG... Everyone who joins pick up groups has a bunch stories of someone doing/saying something strange. Something unexpected. They also have stories about meeting really good players. As well as everything in betweenI imagine you never pugged before, or not in a long time.

Mostly because guildies can't/won't keep up, so I have.

I would respond with snarkiness and snide comments, but I have a lot of respect for you, so I will just say this: I like joining PUGs usually because of randomness as well. I generally don't mind even when stuff like the aforementioned things happen. I only note these 3 examples because they seem to be kind of a theme (well, theme might be a strong word) amongst a lot of PUGs. I've run in some where I'm full on hasted and buffed and running as fast as my little dwarf legs will take me and it's all I can do to lay down a web before everything is dead and then it's time to move again - as I said before, those PUGs are in the slight majority, and are mostly what I expect when I join a PUG. Its when I get some of the stuff above over and over again that I wonder if I missed something.

Also, finally, in none of my scenarios do I mention someone being gimp. It may be implied, but that's not my intent. And I'm not implying I never die - last night I got into an EE Partycrashers, rolled a 1 on knockdown at the fire giant, and rolled nothing higher than a 3 as he hit me 3 times for 700 damage, killing me. I was sad, and a little embarrassed (karma's a B!) and I made sure when I got up I didn't let it happen again and I wasn't put in that situation anymore. In essence, I LEARNED from my mistake. I usually don't play EE because of all the horror stories I hear about it, so I would say I was in much the same boat as a lot of new players, since the strategies and things you have to do are different (even if only slightly). I didn't whine about it, I didn't pike so I wouldn't die after that, I buffed, made sure everyone else was buffed, and moved on with the intent on bettering myself. That's all I ask from newer players.

[Theolin]

....

RE: Greater Shout: I never thought of that. I was using hypnotize and FoD and Circle of Death and PK, and they were hitting, but the cooldowns make it so in between those I was really just laying down ice storm and jumping around like an idiot, the whole time thinking "There has to be a better way"... will give that a try.

Web also works on them ....

[Seikojin]

Scenario 1:
Not letting the cleric in, or clarifying if the cleric was ready is asking for a party wipe. The lack of communication is on everyone's shoulders. So you waiting then pulling is not bad, but not waiting for a cleric response is asking for whining when they wipe. In PuG's, if I know I can't solo content without another player, then I call it out and ask everyone to wait until everyone is there. Just as a courtesy to everyone. Not my requirement, however, politeness almost never fails to pay.
Scenario 2:
I actually have been the victim of speed clicking and accidentally missing loot due to GT dialog. However, I knew it was my fault for being impatient. Clicker beware. In that case, my response would be, sorry, my bad, been there and learned to slow it up when it comes to popups.
Scenario 3:
How long afgo was this?! Was that you?! LOL Seriously though, the tell is bad form, however, being open and clear with players about their survivability in that and not being butthurt over dropping and reforming in hard is all good. I let people learn the hard way when it comes to things as that. I would have told the bard; We can't do elite. The mobs have too high of saves and their damage would drop us like the trash we are. Hard is much more easy. Everyone else who wanted elite have left, so try to catch up with them.

[Livmo]

If you PUG and have no expectations of others, then you won't be disappointed. Things happen and we are all human. Living in the past doesn't help. Each new PUG is it's own creature. Since we cannot go back in time and change the outcomes, its better to move on. Live, learn, and forgive.

[schelsullivan]

In other news, water is wet.

I beg to differ, water is not wet, the thing that has water sticking to it is the thing that is wet.

[Knight_slayer]

I would respond with snarkiness and snide comments


Why? I was not being snarkey, just because I do not agree with you does not mean I am trolling you.

I have had my fair share of run-ins with puggers. One guy in a CITW run I was leading would not stop killing portal keepers at the start of the end fight. I had to ask him to stand in a corner and pike till the raid was complete. At the time it was very frustrating but it's just another bad pugger story to add to the already long list. Have also had fantastic experiences with puggers and have made many friends through random pick up groups. Anyway, I don't think you need to stress because you had a few bad experiences in pugs, there will be many more!



I like joining PUGs usually because of randomness as well. I generally don't mind even when stuff like the aforementioned things happen. Its when I get some of the stuff above over and over again that I wonder if I missed something.


You didn't miss anything, the puggers are the same as they always were! You however have changed a lot. From starting out as a complete noob, like everyone, and grown in to the experienced player you are today. I remember when I didnt know where all the quests were. I would ask for a share in every group I joined. There was a time when I couldn't even afford to buy cure serious potions for myself. I would never have capped my first life if not for the pick up groups I joined.



Also, finally, in none of my scenarios do I mention someone being gimp. It may be implied, but that's not my intent.


You did not, I did. I used it as an example. I wonder how you are so shocked that pugs are full of folks that don't know exactly what their doing! It's normal mate.

[voodoogroves]

Usually I'm short-manning with guildies, but I'm trying real hard to PUG out the open spots.

When there are no guildies on (which, small guild = frequent) I end up pugging - either starting or joining.

I have to say, most of the groups I'm in have had 2-3 pretty rocking folks, then the rest is a mix you can't predict - but I've had solid cores in most of the groups for the last few weeks.

There have been a few that are moving way too slow for my preference, but I don't stay in those. Others are solid enough we can fast-farm (where 2 is handier than 1, like Fleshmaker's, Vol now, etc.).

I've also been pleasantly surprised at the newer players who try to keep up and are asking questions about how to do things with speed/efficiency, etc.

All in all, my recent pugging experience has been pretty good. That includes a nice fast blitz of some GH and Orchard w/ Exploits earlier today, etc. and Vhaewhatever earlier than that.

[blackdoguk]

All in all, my recent pugging experience has been pretty good. That includes a nice fast blitz of some GH and Orchard w/ Exploits.

Epic exploiting reported on the forums.

[voodoogroves]

Epic exploiting reported on the forums.

I totally ran Fleshmakers yesterday with Exploits. I admit it, I'm a dirty cheat. They were the old school variety, if I recall. BAN MEH

I think once I also cured Light Wounds.

[exploitss]

Usually I'm short-manning with guildies, but I'm trying real hard to PUG out the open spots.

When there are no guildies on (which, small guild = frequent) I end up pugging - either starting or joining.

I have to say, most of the groups I'm in have had 2-3 pretty rocking folks, then the rest is a mix you can't predict - but I've had solid cores in most of the groups for the last few weeks.

There have been a few that are moving way too slow for my preference, but I don't stay in those. Others are solid enough we can fast-farm (where 2 is handier than 1, like Fleshmaker's, Vol now, etc.).

I've also been pleasantly surprised at the newer players who try to keep up and are asking questions about how to do things with speed/efficiency, etc.

All in all, my recent pugging experience has been pretty good. That includes a nice fast blitz of some GH and Orchard w/ Exploits earlier today, etc. and Vhaewhatever earlier than that.
Please Please dont Rush you will all get an Autograph eventually =P -Exploits

[eryah]

[QUOTE=Greater Teleport gives you 58 seconds to click Accept. In that time, you can swap weapons, make sweet love to your partner, check inventory, raid buff, and STILL have 40 seconds to teleport! If it's not what you want you can also click....DECLINE. I respond with something like "It's not my fault you are dumb. I will take your statement as a compliment, thanks!" and drop party. Is it now rude to cast greater Teleport? Because if so I could have saved a ton of plat not buying a stack of said scrolls...[/QUOTE]
Hahahah what a dum dum would complain about getting a free GT... i mean u should have sent him to the Nightforge... guess your jsut a good player running into bad groups ... i still have faith in PUGs i really do but from time to time I just want the quest to be over so i can quit group... Lets face it we were all newbies (noobs) at some point... I like to give advice, but I dont see ppl really taking info in often... anyways keep PUGging so you can keep telling this kind of stories :) its refreshing

p.s. dnt know if i quotted properly

[eryah]

Hahahah what a dum dum would complain about getting a free GT... i mean u should have sent him to the Nightforge... guess your jsut a good player running into bad groups ... i still have faith in PUGs i really do but from time to time I just want the quest to be over so i can quit group... Lets face it we were all newbies (noobs) at some point... I like to give advice, but I dont see ppl really taking info in often... anyways keep PUGging so you can keep telling this kind of stories :) its refreshing

p.s. dnt know if i quotted properly

[Fedora1]

Hahahah what a dum dum would complain about getting a free GT... i mean u should have sent him to the Nightforge... guess your jsut a good player running into bad groups ... i still have faith in PUGs i really do but from time to time I just want the quest to be over so i can quit group... Lets face it we were all newbies (noobs) at some point... I like to give advice, but I dont see ppl really taking info in often... anyways keep PUGging so you can keep telling this kind of stories :) its refreshing

p.s. dnt know if i quotted properly

You need another bracket "]" after the word quote in the beginning.


EDIT - Haha you ninja'd me and took the whole quote out. lol

[keveniaftw]

Llewndyn has become an elitist, I'm not sure if I should be happy about this or sad. I could go dig up earlier posts where Llewndyn defended the casual/noob population and now he has graduated to the expecting people to only hit his LFM if they "Know it".

This seems to be natural progression of Vet characters according to DDO forumites. I personally don't believe it happens 100% of the time but hey it happens.

But to answer your 3 scenario questions you aren't wrong or right. You clearly have reached the point where you are trying to give puggers regardless of who they are credit for learning all the things you have been taught or learned yourself without accepting the possibility that they simply may not have the knowledge, gear or player skill to do the things that now come naturally to you.

So either you'll learn to post LFM's that say BYOH or Know It or Zerg Run only or the other multitude of catchphrases veterans and/or elitist use to try to get only other like people to join the LFM and not delay your quest to beat the quest in what you feel is an acceptable amount of time and/or resources.

Or maybe you will accept that others may not have your skill or knowledge and need a helping hand and be willing to help them.

Just for clarification I fall into the first crowd, while I don't hate teaching "noobs" etc with my limited playtime I generally just want to get X amount of things done in Y time as fast as possible.

Bowserkoopa,

Watching the Elitist population grow one person at a time.

This just might be the first post of yours ever that I fully agree with

[prophet1]

i have a more funny anwser , first off i dont care if a bard pugs as long as he sings them songs thats what i party bards for anyway , fighters fight , mages cast and healers heal( debatable now a days, seems as of late the fs cry too much when they have 2 and claim im nit a healer, dont lie anymore your a healer type u can always heal , even my pally tryes to heal as much as possible the party) and bards sing . second as long as u don t end up in titans islands , who cares if ya get greater teleported , i have had the gt pop up the same second i went to click on chest right in the wat and whoosh i was off to wherever but never complained about it , i figured more a game bug than a person trying to be nice, never blames the mage just ddo placement of the spell

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I refer you to my sig.



And



I refer your former PUG-mates to my sig.








Edit: I went back and realized who wrote the OP. And I was surprised. I am not good at remembering names, but like someone else posted, I thought I remembered a lot more tolerance of noobs from you in previous posts.


Ok... mistakes happen.

Whenever I pull that lever in POP the same things go through my mind. Are they ready? How long do I wait? They look Ready? What is this guy doing? Out or in buddy, come on make up your mind.


But on another note: yes, people can die in there. They hurl lightning attacks and can do physical damage as well.
But the killer comes when you get hurled into the lighting at the barrier.
Which it sounds like you should have known that the Cleric was going to get hit by the barrier when you threw the switch. (I have seen this happen many times)


Anyway... like some other posters have said. This whole thing comes across as pretty elitist.

But I also see that it started with others in the group you were in, and how they responded to what happened.

I am reminded of two wrongs does not make a right.

[dunklezhan]

False. And while I'm sure someone typed up a similar response to Neville Chamberlain just before his trip to Munich, advice like this is what causes the problem. We can not accept the tards doing tard things. If we do, we're no better than those who let the Germans march over Europe. They need to be called on it and come away with a clear understanding that stupidity is worse than genocide, in a gaming sense. And I'm talking about a gaming sense here: if your mission in play is to be terrible and suck the fun from every aspect of this game, you are stoking the ovens of MMO gaming, ready to push poor folks who still try to PUG into them.Stop the madness. When you see bad plan, let it be known. Things will never get better without that.


This is a funny post, but mostly it just made me think: 1st world problems! Perspective, people!



As for the OP (I've read the follow up replies):

Look: it doesn't matter what you put in your LFM, a PuG is a PuG, and you can't stop random. Therefore, everyone should simply be on their best, nicest behaviour. I mean, why not? If you want to make sure you only run with your version of "quality" people, the game has a mechanism for this, it's called a guild. Private chat channels can be created for like minded people (yo, Forthi!). LFMs... they're not it.

PuGs are spin the roulette wheel and hope that your text entry filters out at least some of the folks you want to avoid, and that no-one decides to troll you for putting 'know it' or something like that. You can't expect a PuG to be anything else. Even if it weren't for the fact that about 10% of any group of people are completely antisocial or contrary wossnames, fact is a lot of folks play this game who don't speak english as a first language and may not even have properly understood the LFM. But most likely they are trying to, and many of the really nice players I've bumped into have been non-english speakers, if you just take the time to establish what level of communications you do have. I've also met a few who aren't trying, and that is a pain. On the other hand, you can freely discuss reforming the group in front of them without them getting upset so...


Asking "who's in the right" immediately makes me want to say "not you". But looking at it objectively I tend to agree with others -

the GT issue is their fault not yours: read before you click. On the other hand, you are specifically asking about etiquette. So that said, why not, instead of assuming everyone *wants* a GT, just ask first? That would be what I consider the correct etiquette, and it's what I'd do.


On the PoP issue - again I think in terms of etiquette, it wouldn't have cost you anything to ask, not assume, that everyone was ready. You are the lever puller, and control the situation. You have the power. Therefore the onus of etiquette falls to YOU to check they're ready, not them to guess at how long your patience is before you decide it's been too long and they should be ready. You can just count in for heaven's sake it's not hard.

On the issue with the bard - they asked to join YOUR group so in terms of etiquette if you had posted things like 'know it' or 'be flagged', the onus is on them to be honest if they don't know it and send you a tell to see if it's alright to join. If you didn't, then it is on you, the leader, to get your group together and going and to brief party members as necessary. In my view you should really have cut them loose much earlier (and with more grace, but you've already admitted you know you were a bit rude so I'll not harp on that :) ) when it became clear they were not going to be fast enough for you. Personally, the point at which they could not get into the Vale, I would've said: are you flagged to get in, and do you know how to do that? And when they said no, I would've explained we were trying to get things done quickly and didn't have time to wait or explain right now. Then I'd probably have pointed them at the wiki, apologised for not being able to help them this time, and dismissed them. Because that would be the polite thing to do.

Now, am I too coddling, too forgiving? I don't know, probably. But although I've had idiots and noobs (distinct from newbs) in my party before, I've never had an angry tell about my actions in dismissing or dropping group when it's become clear we're incompatible or about my actions in a quest.

Except once, when a fellow officer scolded me for trying to do a PuG CiTW EH in a 1 rank destiny, because it made us look bad as a guild. And they were entirely right to do so, and I haven't done it again. I was a baaaaad widdle dunkle.

[prophet1]

no not at all you were totally in the right , wasn t your fault some crazy decided to test there lighting resistance vs the barrier , obviously the barrier won lol , the only pug ppl drive me mad is when try to tell them to stop cause u know a easier way and they go leroy jenkins running in like mad and by then all the mobs agro and insanity explodes and your left facing a bunch of soul stones and a pack of mobs and rednamed , and just a example , the end of epic tor u can shoot first pillar draw no agro then u can go invis target second go to back of room kill the second ( skelly cant see inv ) then the boss activates and can see invisable and hell follow you away from the mobs to a point where they wil bug if they come running and he wont , there by missing the constant respawn , but you always get those ppl go running like crazies into the room and alll hell breaks lose , so when the party dies im still standing to the side wacthing ( cause i said no wait 5 times before they ran in ) and there like we coulda won if u ran in a helped , my response is we coulda won if u had stopped to listen leroy , so don t let someone blame you for there issues , the bard had no right to demand elite if he can t solo elite and the greater tele gives you plenty of time to react , i solo more than pug , but when i do pug i go by group census on what to do and difficulty and i try t draw as much ago as i can to keep then alive even if they don t notice it , when all is said and done and the kill count favors you 3 or 4 to 1 you know youve done your job as well as you could lol

[eryah]

=Fedora1;5194475]You need another bracket "]" after the word quote in the beginning.


EDIT - Haha you ninja'd me and took the whole quote out. lol

Thank you :) hope this helps

[Llewndyn]

Why? I was not being snarkey, just because I do not agree with you does not mean I am trolling you.

I have had my fair share of run-ins with puggers. One guy in a CITW run I was leading would not stop killing portal keepers at the start of the end fight. I had to ask him to stand in a corner and pike till the raid was complete. At the time it was very frustrating but it's just another bad pugger story to add to the already long list. Have also had fantastic experiences with puggers and have made many friends through random pick up groups. Anyway, I don't think you need to stress because you had a few bad experiences in pugs, there will be many more!





You didn't miss anything, the puggers are the same as they always were! You however have changed a lot. From starting out as a complete noob, like everyone, and grown in to the experienced player you are today. I remember when I didnt know where all the quests were. I would ask for a share in every group I joined. There was a time when I couldn't even afford to buy cure serious potions for myself. I would never have capped my first life if not for the pick up groups I joined.





You did not, I did. I used it as an example. I wonder how you are so shocked that pugs are full of folks that don't know exactly what their doing! It's normal mate.

I guess I was a little shocked because the majority of PUGS I've been in have been great, even when it's comprised almost completely of newbs and I'm the only one who knows what they're doing. I've since learned a bit more patience, and plan to take a more helpful role in PUGs. RE: CITW, I demand you let me pike now since I know you'll let people do it! I'm only level 17 right now but I can link my Pinion...

[dunklezhan]

Wow . . . I think I understood that.

Me too. And the precise grammar of the exact translation forced me to read it in the voice of a badly dubbed martial arts movie. Double win!

[ice-arrow]

Me too. And the precise grammar of the exact translation forced me to read it in the voice of a badly dubbed martial arts movie. Double win!
I'll be back. [terminator's tone]
Ehehe.. kk.