Beaten by kobolds!

[Carlobrand]

Okay, to be fair, it's in Elite mode.

I'm running solo, a 4th level character, mixed fighter/thief. Does pretty well by stealth and ambush except in Elite mode - no great surprise, Elite's supposed to be harder. It's just that it's the Kobold shaman who are giving me fits, not the other fights. In Elite, the shaman throw these combinations of lightning bolts, some sort of obscuring black mist, and a curse that puts me at -4. I can get the shaman alone, drawing his support into 1-on-1's with bluff, but I can't defeat a single shaman - that black mist thing is making it impossible for me to see them. I'm not putting out enough damage to drop them in one blow in Elite mode, even with a sneak attack, and once they get a chance to get a spell off, I'm cooked.

Like I said, it's elite mode, but it makes me worry for the future of the character when I start running into serious mages at the higher levels in Normal mode. I'm looking for ideas for how I can build the character up to better deal with mages in solo player.

[GeoffWatson]

Okay, to be fair, it's in Elite mode.

I'm running solo, a 4th level character, mixed fighter/thief. Does pretty well by stealth and ambush except in Elite mode - no great surprise, Elite's supposed to be harder. It's just that it's the Kobold shaman who are giving me fits, not the other fights. In Elite, the shaman throw these combinations of lightning bolts, some sort of obscuring black mist, and a curse that puts me at -4. I can get the shaman alone, drawing his support into 1-on-1's with bluff, but I can't defeat a single shaman - that black mist thing is making it impossible for me to see them. I'm not putting out enough damage to drop them in one blow in Elite mode, even with a sneak attack, and once they get a chance to get a spell off, I'm cooked.

Like I said, it's elite mode, but it makes me worry for the future of the character when I start running into serious mages at the higher levels in Normal mode. I'm looking for ideas for how I can build the character up to better deal with mages in solo player.

The Elite kobold shamans are quite dangerous for their level.
Try some potions of Resist Energy:Lightning or Protection from Energy:Lightning. Maybe wands if you've got enough Use Magic Device.
Remove Curse comes in potions as well.
Guild ship buffs can help as well.

Geoff.

[AbyssalMage]

Okay, to be fair, it's in Elite mode.

I'm running solo, a 4th level character, mixed fighter/thief. Does pretty well by stealth and ambush except in Elite mode - no great surprise, Elite's supposed to be harder. It's just that it's the Kobold shaman who are giving me fits, not the other fights. In Elite, the shaman throw these combinations of lightning bolts, some sort of obscuring black mist, and a curse that puts me at -4. I can get the shaman alone, drawing his support into 1-on-1's with bluff, but I can't defeat a single shaman - that black mist thing is making it impossible for me to see them. I'm not putting out enough damage to drop them in one blow in Elite mode, even with a sneak attack, and once they get a chance to get a spell off, I'm cooked.

Like I said, it's elite mode, but it makes me worry for the future of the character when I start running into serious mages at the higher levels in Normal mode. I'm looking for ideas for how I can build the character up to better deal with mages in solo player.
Ship Buffs is the easiest way. If you don't have this as an option then you have to use strategy.
Use corners to make them move to you and then you have to blitz them as soon as they come around the corner. Not sure what you are using for weapons but that may be an issue also. My main strategy was to "plink" them with arrows until they chased me around the corner. Another suggestion would be to use a Merc Healer if you are not already. You have a 20% miss chance in the fog so fighting in the fog is not advisable. That is why fighting around corners is advisable. Hopefully the first fog disappears before he casts the fog on the second side.

[Thalone]

Are you isolating them or fighting them with a mob of melees? I find it helpful on lower-DPS classes to draw off the manageable clumps of enemies before tackling casters. Common methods to peel enemies away are Bluff and using a returning thrower to hit the ground in front of the enemy you want to attract. If your Hide/Move Silently are good, you can also move close and bump up against the target you want to draw away. Also, if you watch shamans, they tend to put their arms in the air when they're about to cast--that is your cue to run behind a nice wall so you don't get fried.

You mentioned you're a "fighter thief"... I do not find melee to be difficult during the lower levels. Have you taken Power Attack/Cleave? Most kobolds won't survive more than a couple of hits after getting Cleaved.

[Clatterfist]

Kobold Shamans are extremely dangerous at low level due to Lightning Bolt's ability to rebound and hit you twice with a single casting. Curse can hose your saves, which are likely to be unreliable at that level anyway, and Obscuring Mist can be a problem when trying to deal with the shaman quickly. So, what can you do?

The first thing is to be prepared. Any Lightning Resistance you can get will be extremely beneficial because it'll apply twice against the rebounds, which are the most dangerous moments in the fight. Remove Curse pots are great to bring your bring your saves back up and can be drank safely if you break line of sight with the shaman first. An item that increases your Dexterity will increase your chances of making your saves, as will a resistance item. If you've got at least two rogue levels, then successful saves against Lightning Bolt negate all the damage.

The second thing is to consider fighting them at long range. Lightning Bolt has double spell range so you won't be able to easily outrange them with a bow, but they do perform an obvious tell before casting spells so you can juke side-to-side and let the lightning bolt zap harmlessly into space... and so long as you're a good distance clear of them, they can't befuddle you with Obscuring Mist so easily, helping you retain your sense of control.

If you do prefer to melee them, you can consider tactical feats and burst damage. If they can't see through your stealth, you could try opening with a trip, or a hard hitting active move from one of your enhancement trees.

[Carlobrand]

Some good ideas here.

No, I don't fight mobs; I draw individuals out to fight at a safe distance from whatever mob they're in. Makes for a slow game, but I've always favored stealth and guile over wild charges. The ranged idea sounds promising; I'd been trying to melee the shaman in the hope that hitting it might spoil the casting, but they've got pretty fair concentration. I'd never heard of ship buffs before today; I'm returning after an absence of a couple years, vaguely recall that there were ships then but I don't recall if they did anything - I mostly ignored them. Enhancements seem to have undergone a radical change: my former enhancement hotkeys were greyed out when I came back, and my character had no enhancements and 16 points available to spend. My old enhancements don't seem to exist per se, but there are roughly similar variants in the mix; I'm still getting the hang of this new enhancement system. And, I had something called a "heart of wood" added to the inventory - interesting idea, that.

[GeoffWatson]

If you favour stealth, you could try sneaking past, and not fighting them at all.

Depends on the quest - some you have to kill everything, some you can complete without killing anything (and get a Devious XP bonus).

Geoff.

[Xianio]

Those guys will get you from time to time.

For them, I usually just bring out the biggest, hardest hittingest weapon I've got and smack away. Plus I always maintain a trip/stun/whatever and use it on them.

Otherwise just grab dedicated reflex gear and lightning/fire gear (for that scorching ray spell that'll chew through hp real fast).

[Matuse]

Kobold shamans and their shift in spell use as you go from Normal -> Elite are one of the big eye openers for DDO that separates it from other MMOs. If it makes you feel any better, the Shamans are actually LESS dangerous on Elite than on Hard, where they spam you with Hold Person, and once you fail -that- save, you get absolutely clobbered.

The biggest key for shamans is to carry some lightning resistance. Be it a shockproof item or a stack of resist potions, it makes a huge difference.

Kobolds are small, and this gives them a penalty vs being tripped. Everyone gets the trip feat. Use it!

Beg borrow or steal a returning throwing weapon. Use the terrain to your advantage. Lightning bolts don't go through walls. Duck in and out of a corner or alcove and pick them off. This also keeps you free of their Obscuring Mist castings.

Being cursed is a nuisance mostly for the penalty to your saves than the -to hit. Remove curse potions at low levels are kind of a big expenditure. Don't go nuts removing every little curse, or you'll be broke in no time.

[LavidDynch]

Ship Buffs is the easiest way. If you don't have this as an option then you have to use strategy.

this is totally worth to be a forum sign. Any antiship lobbyist around?

[Kafkadreams]

the shaman throw these combinations of lightning bolts, some sort of obscuring black mist, and a curse


Everyone else has covered the lightning and curse bits. You can deal with the obscuring mist with a clicky of Gust of Wind. I know the clickies used to drop on a fairly regular basis but I don't know if they still do. It took me forever to understand the beauty of having that spell on a ring in my inventory and now I don't leave the harbor without one.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Also, if you watch shamans, they tend to put their arms in the air when they're about to cast--that is your cue to run behind a nice wall so you don't get fried.

You can also run behind the shaman, if timed well, they will shoot their lightning bolt off in the wrong direction.

Another thing, trip.

[mna]

You can also run behind the shaman, if timed well, they will shoot their lightning bolt off in the wrong direction.
Or, you could make them turn away instead. That is, Bluff them, or if you get a Deception proc, or...


Another thing, trip.

Or stun if you have that capability. Not sure if Sap works? Anyhow I think that latter one is just until damaged so not as good, but...



Although I have to say that I've had more trouble with the lightning bolts than the holds on my toons. Holds usually get saved against on one of the later attempts before I'm dead and then I can usually do something about that, a bouncing lightning bolt and a 1 on the reflex save is often instant death at those levels.

[Zillee]

To see the shamens in the black fog, try hard targetting them with your tab key. You may still end up missing them though ... Resist potions and protection potions will help, as will the fighting around the corner advice. If all else fails, use a hireling as bait while you sneak up behind them :D

They are actually the worst enemy at this level. You're going to love the first time you get caught in cloudkill! Ooooh and sleetstorm. Still remember the first time I encountered that in The Swiped Signet. I didn't know what the heck had just happened. So much for you to look forward to!

[Carlobrand]

I'm finding Elite mode quite thrilling actually - and very puzzling at times. Took the same character into another dungeon, met up with zombies. Equipped my best plate armor and shield, the Zoms are hitting me about half the time. Apparently there was some change to the to-hit" calculation while I was gone. Is it applied only to Elite, 'cause they're nowhere near so accurate in Hard?

This is very exciting - most fun I've had in a long time, to be honest, though I'm doing a lot of dying - but it's very difficult to figure out which challenges I'm up to and which are beyond my reach when the zoms in the "level-4" elite dungeon can hit through my best armor half the time and carry a 10-point "slash damage reduction". (If I have it right, the 3.5 book zombie has a DR of 5. Are all DRs doubled in Elite?) Occurs to me belatedly that the earlier-mentioned shaman are behaving more like 5th level monsters than 3rd, what with the lightning and all. There've been game mechanic changes that make Elite very different from the D&D 3.5 that I'm familiar with, and clearly I've got a heck of a lot to learn about what those changes are, but is there some more accurate way of judging the module's difficulty?

[Teh_Ghoul]

I'm finding Elite mode quite thrilling actually - and very puzzling at times. Took the same character into another dungeon, met up with zombies. Equipped my best plate armor and shield, the Zoms are hitting me about half the time. Apparently there was some change to the to-hit" calculation while I was gone. Is it applied only to Elite, 'cause they're nowhere near so accurate in Hard?

This is very exciting - most fun I've had in a long time, to be honest, though I'm doing a lot of dying - but it's very difficult to figure out which challenges I'm up to and which are beyond my reach when the zoms in the "level-4" elite dungeon can hit through my best armor half the time and carry a 10-point "slash damage reduction". (If I have it right, the 3.5 book zombie has a DR of 5. Are all DRs doubled in Elite?) Occurs to me belatedly that the earlier-mentioned shaman are behaving more like 5th level monsters than 3rd, what with the lightning and all. There've been game mechanic changes that make Elite very different from the D&D 3.5 that I'm familiar with, and clearly I've got a heck of a lot to learn about what those changes are, but is there some more accurate way of judging the module's difficulty?
Take what you know about 3.5 difficulty and cr ratings, ball it up, throw it in a trash can, light it on fire, then throw the ashes out the window.

The boss in
http://ddowiki.com/page/In_the_Belly_of_the_Beast
a level 22 quest
Feryl Cay'Vorym
http://ddowiki.com/page/Feryl_Cay%27Vorym
is a cr43 on elite iirc.

[taurean430]

I'm finding Elite mode quite thrilling actually - and very puzzling at times. Took the same character into another dungeon, met up with zombies. Equipped my best plate armor and shield, the Zoms are hitting me about half the time. Apparently there was some change to the to-hit" calculation while I was gone. Is it applied only to Elite, 'cause they're nowhere near so accurate in Hard?

This is very exciting - most fun I've had in a long time, to be honest, though I'm doing a lot of dying - but it's very difficult to figure out which challenges I'm up to and which are beyond my reach when the zoms in the "level-4" elite dungeon can hit through my best armor half the time and carry a 10-point "slash damage reduction". (If I have it right, the 3.5 book zombie has a DR of 5. Are all DRs doubled in Elite?) Occurs to me belatedly that the earlier-mentioned shaman are behaving more like 5th level monsters than 3rd, what with the lightning and all. There've been game mechanic changes that make Elite very different from the D&D 3.5 that I'm familiar with, and clearly I've got a heck of a lot to learn about what those changes are, but is there some more accurate way of judging the module's difficulty?

Lightning bolts are a tough customer to deal with.

Consider using a Phiarlan Mirror Cloak for encounters with casters in that level range. It won't help against the notorious lightning bolts, but will against curses. The shaman's have trouble beating spell resistance 17 in that level range.

What Zillee mentioned about using the 'tab' key is spot on. You can target them while they are standing in the middle of obscuring mist. There will still be a miss chance, but it's doable to hit them.

Consider also getting some heroism pots to help with your reflex saves. They now last for 5 mins at a time. On a low reflex save character I've used those in the past along with cat's grace pots (also 5 min).

When in doubt, or if they jump halfway up a wall, break line of sight. They will give chase to get it back and come to you.

Also; consider watching their animations. When you see the animation related to them casting, jump and strafe left or right to avoid their lightning bolts or other spells altogether. That takes some practice though.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

this is totally worth to be a forum sign. Any antiship lobbyist around?

I agree. ;)


While I am not anti-ship per say, I am anti-ship invite /beg.

My own little guild of mostly one doesn't have 30pt resists yet. I have alts on every server and usually run most quests without ship buffs.

That said, it has been a very long time since I found elite Harbor Kobolds to be a challenge.

But... I tend to play dex based toons with good reflex saves. And I bring hireling healers, or at least my own heals and cures.


Back up!
That is my advice.

Pull them to you.
Remove those curses.
Range them.
Shoot around corners.
Watch for the casting animation.

Seriously, let some see you... then back up. Fight what comes to you.
Use the terrain to limit the number that attack you at once.

Get cursed, run.
Get hit by one lightning bolt, run.
Heal up.

Try again.

[Carlobrand]

Take what you know about 3.5 difficulty and cr ratings, ball it up, throw it in a trash can, light it on fire, then throw the ashes out the window. ...

I think you're right on that; I'm going to have to toss preconceptions out and just approach it as a new game, at least where the monsters and their abilities are concerned. Interesting times ahead!

As regards the other suggestions:

I'll work in the tab bit, that's a good idea. And trip. And gaming to the animation. I'm definitely going to have to get much, much better with the hotkeys and the range of strategies if I'm going to hold my own on Elite. The Phiarlan Mirror Cloak looks like it'd take most of my platinum to get, but it definitely looks like it'd be worth it. Potions and such - there might be a budget issue, I'll need to price them and weigh that against the potential reward. I may have to work dongeons in normal or hard so I can earn some cash for the pots to use in Elite.

[Asmodeus451]

lots of great advice here, but theres one thing i dont see mentioned: advice on how to kill them quickly


you mention being 2/2 FTR/ROG, so i'll be assuming thats what you have


in the 1st and 2nd tier of enhancements for the Assassin Rogue Tree, there are a pair of enhancements that act as attacks with (for your level) greatly boosted damage. They're called Shiv and Bleed them Out. Used back to back as a one-two punch, they'll pretty much kill or almost kill (as in one extra hit needed) any mob, even on elite.

[Saekee]

lots of great advice here, but theres one thing i dont see mentioned: advice on how to kill them quickly


you mention being 2/2 FTR/ROG, so i'll be assuming thats what you have


in the 1st and 2nd tier of enhancements for the Assassin Rogue Tree, there are a pair of enhancements that act as attacks with (for your level) greatly boosted damage. They're called Shiv and Bleed them Out. Used back to back as a one-two punch, they'll pretty much kill or almost kill (as in one extra hit needed) any mob, even on elite.

Great advice here. I remember finding the kobold shamans nightmarish when I first played the game. They are good training for later, tougher casters. Vets playing melee classes often charge into a group and go right for the casters in order to take them down first because they always create the worst troubles...and are the most squishy against melees. Rogues specialize at taking out casters due to evasion (avoids many of their spells), sneak, bluff etc. so in groups, as you level, a good rogue will move ahead and take out casters.
I know you are a splash class so as you level, consider getting at least five levels of rogue by level 12 in order to get the tier 5 assassin enhancement Knife Specialization. Assuming you do the rest as fighter or tempest, you can have a good two-weapon fighting melee character with daggers (or kukris, but there are lots of good named daggers).

[Carlobrand]

...
I know you are a splash class so as you level, consider getting at least five levels of rogue by level 12 in order to get the tier 5 assassin enhancement Knife Specialization. Assuming you do the rest as fighter or tempest, you can have a good two-weapon fighting melee character with daggers (or kukris, but there are lots of good named daggers).

Splash class?

I'm at the point of leveling up, so I'm considering your level-5 rogue advice. Part of the problem is I started the character about 4 years ago under rather different enhancement rules, then I was absent a few years for personal reasons; the new structure is making me rethink my original build ideas. The character is intended as a pure solo; I have kids and need to be able to AFK or bail on a dungeon at a moment's notice, and that's not a nice thing to do to other people. My original idea was to give all my characters at least one to two levels of rogue so they could handle traps and locks, then progress in a chosen class. Ergo, at this point I would be marching forward as a fighter. I've got a low-level rogue/ranger in the wings (with one level of fighter for the armor and weapons options) and had been considering starting a rogue/wizard or rogue/cleric for some fun with spells, on the "1-2 levels of rogue and then ..." plan, before I had to drop out. However, the build as fighter is clearly not up to tackling masses of opponents in Elite, much less opponents backed by casters - and I'm liking the challenge of Elite enough that I want to focus my build in that direction - so now I'm reconsidering the rogue-2/fighter-n as a solo. I'm thinking pure rogue - with maybe a single fighter level for the armor and weapons and the one extra feat, or maybe with a single level of cleric so I can hole up someplace quiet and heal rather than be dependent on potions and the statue-things - would have been the better bet. Also debating rogue/ranger, but the rogue's crossbow-sniping abilities seems to overlap there.

So now I'm considering how best to salvage this character. An extra level of fighter isn't a disaster, but I might consider getting a heartwood thingy to reclass that level if it'll make this guy more effective. Maybe I should have gone rogue with one level of fighter and one level of cleric.

[Matuse]

The Phiarlan Mirror Cloak looks like it'd take most of my platinum to get, but it definitely looks like it'd be worth it.

The Mirror Cloak is a Bound item, you can't just buy one. You'll need to head over to House P and quest for it (assuming you are VIP or have the Carnival pack). Good news is that the Carnival quests are some of the best ones in the game, IMO. Partycrashers is one of my most favorite quests in the entire game.


Potions and such - there might be a budget issue, I'll need to price them and weigh that against the potential reward. I may have to work dongeons in normal or hard so I can earn some cash for the pots to use in Elite.

Hulk...SMASH! Find a barrel or a box? Break it. Leave nothing standing behind you. In addition to getting Ransack XP bonuses, you get piles of useful potions and occasionally weapons/armor/accessories. I've never once bought any of the resist potions, but my potion/scroll mule still has a stack of 100 of each flavor.


So now I'm considering how best to salvage this character. An extra level of fighter isn't a disaster, but I might consider getting a heartwood thingy to reclass that level if it'll make this guy more effective. Maybe I should have gone rogue with one level of fighter and one level of cleric.

Multiclassing is generally not something you want to do on the fly as you level up. It's not just easy but TRIVIAL to seriously screw up your character that way. If this character is 4 years old, you should have a +20 Lesser Heart in your inventory. I don't know that I'd bother using it at such a low level, but it can be used to fix almost anything you don't like about the character.

Decide if you want to be a fighter that dabbles in rogue, or a rogue with bulked up melee. Then that guides you towards the majority of your levels. I would probably not bother splashing in any Cleric. Max out your UMD, get a Charisma item, and your rogue levels should let you effectively use cure wands for healing yourself. Wands are a lot more effective (and a couple orders of magnitude cheaper) than potions, but potions can be used by anybody without restriction.

[Carlobrand]

The Mirror Cloak is a Bound item, you can't just buy one. You'll need to head over to House P and quest for it (assuming you are VIP or have the Carnival pack). Good news is that the Carnival quests are some of the best ones in the game, IMO. Partycrashers is one of my most favorite quests in the entire game. ...

AHA! A-questing, then. Thanks!


... Hulk...SMASH! Find a barrel or a box? Break it. Leave nothing standing behind you. In addition to getting Ransack XP bonuses, you get piles of useful potions and occasionally weapons/armor/accessories. I've never once bought any of the resist potions, but my potion/scroll mule still has a stack of 100 of each flavor. ...

I do that as a habit, built up a fair collection of potions (and assorted other goodies) that never get used in Normal or Hard, but I burned through a chunk trying to take on the Kobolds on Elite - which says something about the qualitative difference in the degree of challenge, I suspect.

What is a potion/scroll mule?


... Multiclassing is generally not something you want to do on the fly as you level up. It's not just easy but TRIVIAL to seriously screw up your character that way. If this character is 4 years old, you should have a +20 Lesser Heart in your inventory. I don't know that I'd bother using it at such a low level, but it can be used to fix almost anything you don't like about the character.

Decide if you want to be a fighter that dabbles in rogue, or a rogue with bulked up melee. Then that guides you towards the majority of your levels. I would probably not bother splashing in any Cleric. Max out your UMD, get a Charisma item, and your rogue levels should let you effectively use cure wands for healing yourself. Wands are a lot more effective (and a couple orders of magnitude cheaper) than potions, but potions can be used by anybody without restriction.

Well, in fairness I did have a plan, as I described, but it's a 4-year-old plan that doesn't seem to be appropriate to the new enhancement rules or to the way they're handling Elite now. I have a suspicion that this might have been one of the reasons these hearts of wood got handed out. Yes, I have a +20 Lesser Heart of Wood, and yes, it is way too big a cannon to fire at this rather minor problem; I'll save it for when I'm much higher in levels. I also have a plain lesser heart of wood; while that won't address any class issues, it does give me a chance to convert my 28 point fighter-rogue into a 32-point fighter-rogue, and maybe rebalance skills a bit. (I spent on Heal, regretted that after I realized how the skill worked.) Only thing is, I hear there are some bug issues with the free heart of wood, so I'm wondering if it might be better just to get my hands on a +1 and just get it all done at once. Or does the +1 hide bugs of its own?

So, where do I lay my hands on a good charisma item?

(Interestingly, I find I also have a level-1 fighter with a +20 lesser and a straight lesser - my very first character, who I retired early on when it occurred to me that I couldn't open locks or deal with traps. I never deleted him, and now with these hearts of woods, I'm thinking it miight be interesting to bring him out of retirement as a pure fighter or maybe fighter/cleric - though I'm still going to have to think of some way to deal with locks and traps.)

[Saekee]

Multiclassing is generally not something you want to do on the fly as you level up. It's not just easy but TRIVIAL to seriously screw up your character that way. If this character is 4 years old, you should have a +20 Lesser Heart in your inventory. I don't know that I'd bother using it at such a low level, but it can be used to fix almost anything you don't like about the character.

Decide if you want to be a fighter that dabbles in rogue, or a rogue with bulked up melee. Then that guides you towards the majority of your levels. I would probably not bother splashing in any Cleric. Max out your UMD, get a Charisma item, and your rogue levels should let you effectively use cure wands for healing yourself. Wands are a lot more effective (and a couple orders of magnitude cheaper) than potions, but potions can be used by anybody without restriction.

this poster has some reflections: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/426757-Build-Options-for-a-Knife-Specialist?highlight=tempest+knife+specialist
Matuse is very correct--you really need to plan out multiclassing. For example, certain feats like IC: piercing require a Base Attack Bonus of 8; rogues only get a .75 BAB so you need to time it just right. Plus, when splashing rogue classes, it is best to stagger them out so as to maximize the skill bonuses.
I timed my rogue levels so that I took my fifth rogue level at 12, then redid my enhancements for Tier 5 assassin Knife Specialization. Rangers get good skill bonuses so I was able to keep up my trapping skills. You went fighter so that is different!

I have a newborn also and family demands. I set things up so that Wednesday nights is DDO night. Makes a big difference.

[Carlobrand]

... Plus, when splashing rogue classes, it is best to stagger them out so as to maximize the skill bonuses. ...

I'm not sure if I understood that. We start with Rogue to get the best use of the starting skill points. Then - what am I looking for in the way of staggering the classes to max skill bonuses? I was under the impression it was a straight number-based-on-intel times class factor.

[Gremmlynn]

Some good ideas here.

No, I don't fight mobs; I draw individuals out to fight at a safe distance from whatever mob they're in. Makes for a slow game, but I've always favored stealth and guile over wild charges. The ranged idea sounds promising; I'd been trying to melee the shaman in the hope that hitting it might spoil the casting, but they've got pretty fair concentration. All mobs have auto-succeed for concentration. They can't be interrupted by damage. Try tripping them, or using stunning blow if you have it, those will interrupt them most of the time and keep them from casting for a bit.

[Gremmlynn]

I'm not sure if I understood that. We start with Rogue to get the best use of the starting skill points. Then - what am I looking for in the way of staggering the classes to max skill bonuses? I was under the impression it was a straight number-based-on-intel times class factor.Skills are capped at character level+3 though. So taking the lower number of skill point classes early (other than first level, which you should always take your highest skill point class at due to the creation bonus) means you are forced by the skill cap to spread them out over a lot of skills, then when you are getting fewer with the low skill point class you likely won't have enough to keep your most important skills capped.

Better to have a few skills that are likely to succeed than a lot of skills that are likely to fail.

Going the other way lets your skill caps build while you are getting fewer points to allow multiple points to be concentrated into the most important one's later when you are getting more from the higher skill point class. Or, if you enjoy doing the math, alternating classes so you lag a bit and catch back up by taking a level in the high skill class every 2nd, 3rd, or whatever the math shows you will have room under the cap to use all your points on your important skills.

For example, with my Fighter 12/Ranger 6/Rogue 2 build I took rogue at level 1 to maximize bonus skill points, fighter 2-12 due to getting fewer points in that class and wanting to concentrate points into non-fighter skills, ranger from 13-18 (would have been 14-19 but needed a level 6 ranger auto-grant feat, improved two-weapon fighting, at 18 to take greater two weapon fighting as my level 18 feat) to concentrate the 8ish skill points I got/level into the 3 skills I most wanted, due to all of them being well below cap, fighter at 19 and finishing off with rogue at 20 have maximum skill points to spend at the highest cap.

While this made for a rather late blooming character, that's the price to pay for that particular build to be effective later on.

[Matuse]

So, where do I lay my hands on a good charisma item?

There are lootgen Charisma items all over the place, in a variety of slots. It shouldn't be too difficult to find something.

Probably the best option would be the Helm of Frost. It has hugely outsized stats for its min level (5), the difficulty is in getting one without a higher level character to run Chronoscope.

There's also the Shaman's Beads from Red Fens, and the Sigil of Stormreach from Delera's (although on a first run of that chain, you probably want to take the Voice Of The Master as the end reward).

[Saekee]

I'm not sure if I understood that. We start with Rogue to get the best use of the starting skill points. Then - what am I looking for in the way of staggering the classes to max skill bonuses? I was under the impression it was a straight number-based-on-intel times class factor.

Rogues get 8 skill points per level PLUS the Int bonus; fighters only get 2/level. Also, many skills are class specific and cost double for non class members. so your multiclass here--when he/she takes a fighter level, will find that it costs 2skill points for 1 disable device point. That is why one should stagger out rogue levels (if skills are of interest) so that you can keep up prominent skills you use. For example, Search, Disable, Spot, Open Lock, etc will be hard to maintain with just fighter leveling