Devs: My experience with comms and capping a character

[Dandonk]

My completionist project, Dantig, is now on his 9th life. Running with a guildie, I decided to note what quests we did, and the tally up my comms after we reached cap. Which we just did.

Before we started on the epic quests, we got to 21 by doing heroic quests like Reaver's Reach stuff, some Amrath and some IQ things.

After that, we ran purely epic quests and always on EH and higher.

I am VIP, and have a greater epic tome. Generally ran with +4% ship buff, and always have voice on. VIP bonus is currently higher than normal, and we are on an xp weekend. I used three pots, one 10%, one 20% and one 30%. Each three hours. These covered about half my run time.


QUESTS
List of quests we ran:

EE: von 1-4, IDx2, UGx2, Lost thread, LoD, 2 high road quests, deal and the demon
EH: BFE, Ssch chain, demon web chain, wheloon chain, LoD, SotO, Beyond the Rift, Well^3, con3, 3x high road q, GH apart from raid, study in sable, storm horns chain, druid deep chain

All these were once-per-day, and thus gave comms. Beyond the above, I ran one more ID on EE that did not give comms.

I took xp rewards from two sagas, but not from the three(or four?) others I completed.

We did not have streak on GH quests, LoD, SotO, Beyond the Rift, and Wheloon chain, but we did on everything else. We had first time bonus on everything, of course.


AREAS
Storm Horns: 118 army, 215 nature, 15 explorers, 4 rares.
Wheloon Prison: 414 slayers, 8 explorers, 5 rares.
Gianthold: 4 dragons, 173 giants, 107 other races, 20 explorers, 5 rares.
The Underdark: 38 slayers, 4 liberator, 2 explorers, 0 rares.
Ssch: 78 drow, 19 children, 2 rares, all 24 explorers.
The Demonweb: 18 drow, 44 spiders, 21 fiends, 4 rares, 13 explorers.
The High Road: 103 slayers, 6 rares, all 12 explorers.
King's Forest: 371 slayers, 15 rares, all 40 explorers.


COMMS
My total of vcomms after this run was 1472. I could have had 33 more, but in one case (and only one), I did NOT take the comms but took a named item for reward. Thus, I could have had 33 more. For a total of 1505 vcomms.


CONCLUSION
I acknowledge that with VIP bonus and the use I made of pots, I came to cap faster than I would otherwise. So I did not expect to have the 4200 vcomms after this run, especially since I made some use of a couple of explorer areas and got the first 300k xp outside epic quests.
But I must admit, I did not expect to have only 36% of the needed vcomms for a heart, since we ran some on EE and I didn't just farm high xp quests. I ran GH for flag, flagged for CITW, ran wheloon, druid deep, high road and storm horns chains, as well as doing A Study in Sable. Ran lots of different stuff, not just lowlevel or high xp stuff.

Is this WAI, devs? Let's say I could've gotten 50% vcomms more if I didn't use pots, and we didn't have xp bonuses running. Even so, I'd only be around 54% of the needed vcomms.

I read that we were supposed to get a heart if we ran EH to cap, and took vcomms as rewards all the time. I do not believe this is the case. Can you please enlighten me why my experience is so far from the stated goal?

Is the conclusion here that I should drop VIP, keep away from using TP on pots and tomes of xp, in order for this to work? Is that what you want?

[Teh_Ghoul]

My completionist project, Dantig, is now on his 9th life. Running with a guildie, I decided to note what quests we did, and the tally up my comms after we reached cap. Which we just did.

Before we started on the epic quests, we got to 21 by doing heroic quests like Reaver's Reach stuff, some Amrath and some IQ things.

After that, we ran purely epic quests and always on EH and higher.

I am VIP, and have a greater epic tome. Generally ran with +4% ship buff, and always have voice on. VIP bonus is currently higher than normal, and we are on an xp weekend. I used three pots, one 10%, one 20% and one 30%. Each three hours. These covered about half my run time.


QUESTS
List of quests we ran:

EE: von 1-4, IDx2, UGx2, Lost thread, LoD, 2 high road quests, deal and the demon
EH: BFE, Ssch chain, demon web chain, wheloon chain, LoD, SotO, Beyond the Rift, Well^3, con3, 3x high road q, GH apart from raid, study in sable, storm horns chain, druid deep chain

All these were once-per-day, and thus gave comms. Beyond the above, I ran one more ID on EE that did not give comms.

I took xp rewards from two sagas, but not from the three(or four?) others I completed.

We did not have streak on GH quests, LoD, SotO, Beyond the Rift, and Wheloon chain, but we did on everything else. We had first time bonus on everything, of course.


AREAS
Storm Horns: 118 army, 215 nature, 15 explorers, 4 rares.
Wheloon Prison: 414 slayers, 8 explorers, 5 rares.
Gianthold: 4 dragons, 173 giants, 107 other races, 20 explorers, 5 rares.
The Underdark: 38 slayers, 4 liberator, 2 explorers, 0 rares.
Ssch: 78 drow, 19 children, 2 rares, all 24 explorers.
The Demonweb: 18 drow, 44 spiders, 21 fiends, 4 rares, 13 explorers.
The High Road: 103 slayers, 6 rares, all 12 explorers.
King's Forest: 371 slayers, 15 rares, all 40 explorers.


COMMS
My total of vcomms after this run was 1472. I could have had 33 more, but in one case (and only one), I did NOT take the comms but took a named item for reward. Thus, I could have had 33 more. For a total of 1505 vcomms.


CONCLUSION
I acknowledge that with VIP bonus and the use I made of pots, I came to cap faster than I would otherwise. So I did not expect to have the 4200 vcomms after this run, especially since I made some use of a couple of explorer areas and got the first 300k xp outside epic quests.
But I must admit, I did not expect to have only 36% of the needed vcomms for a heart, since we ran some on EE and I didn't just farm high xp quests. I ran GH for flag, flagged for CITW, ran wheloon, druid deep, high road and storm horns chains, as well as doing A Study in Sable. Ran lots of different stuff, not just lowlevel or high xp stuff.

Is this WAI, devs? Let's say I could've gotten 50% vcomms more if I didn't use pots, and we didn't have xp bonuses running. Even so, I'd only be around 54% of the needed vcomms.

I read that we were supposed to get a heart if we ran EH to cap, and took vcomms as rewards all the time. I do not believe this is the case. Can you please enlighten me why my experience is so far from the stated goal?

Is the conclusion here that I should drop VIP, keep away from using TP on pots and tomes of xp, in order for this to work? Is that what you want?

I'd drop vip and not buy potions or anything anymore, a drop in sales numbers is the only thing that might get them to realize their stupidity.

[DrNuegebauer]

I'd drop vip and not buy potions or anything anymore, a drop in sales numbers is the only thing that might get them to realize their stupidity.

It might not be stupidity.

Hard to get free, while new and shiny, so that those who are desperate will buy rather than grind. But it's been "under review" the whole time, so that when the sales drop, the number of comms required can be safely dropped as well without causing mass nerd-rage.

The only way to make them drop the number of comms is for people to not buy anything at all.

[Demarill]

while i also agree that 4.2k is way too high a number especially considering were grinding the same content for comms as we will for xp(or comms if multi etring) next life unlike standard Tr where you farmed epic for tokens then ran heroic content, it could definatly be lowered. With regards to your comms versus xp gained if your doing multiple etrs youll earn less xp on the future lives as there will be no longer andy first time on difficulty bonuses for yo uas theyre not reset by etr

[Lonnbeimnech]

I posted this in another thread. Posting it again here (updated) because the other thread devolved quickly.


I bought a heart the day etr came out because I was already capped and just wanted to get the ball rolling.

The first run back to cap I did as I usually did when I tr, focus on xp. Well I got to cap and still needed about ~2000 comms, the grind seemed ridiculous. But I eventually got them and did another etr.

Second time around I decided to put more focus on comms rather than doing daily von3s and wiz king runs. Doing mostly epic hard, but doing the highest level quests I was allowed to run, so that meant doing epic hard gianthold at level 22 and wheloon on epic hard at level 23, etc. Now I'm about 800k xp from level 28 and I'm sitting at ~4311 comms(iirc). So I probably could have done a few xp runs in there as well. My routine was to do wheloon skipping the last part, then druid's curse, then high road, then gianthold walkups including 'cabal for one' but not crucible, all on EH, then doing ID on EE. That was about 500 comms in 3 hours or so.

I used no xp pots, don't have the epic xp tome, didn't use voice or mantle and didn't bother with ship buffs and didn't get first time bonus for any quest.

I think by the time everyone works out an efficient system, doing a life per week at a casual pace(3 hours a night at a zerg) will be possible, without buying xp stones, hearts, xp pots, etc.

[Lauf]

That was about 500 comms in 3 hours or so.

I used no xp pots, don't have the epic xp tome, didn't use voice or mantle and didn't bother with ship buffs and didn't get first time bonus for any quest.

Thanks for sharing, good to know someone found SOME way in which this can be done.

I've tried to do the same, no xp pots, no high xp quests, no running explorers or optionals... everything on EH or EE, and only once did a quest without getting coms for it (a guildy needed a hand).

the end result was 2650 coms at level 28.


the only way I can explain such a difference between what you and I got is that you ran the highest possible quests as early as possible, while I was running level appropriate ~ quests. what's even more remarkable is that from all I've heard my 2.6k is far beyond what my friends and guildies were able to get while leveling... making your 4.3k a truly astonishing feat.

[jalont]

My completionist project, Dantig, is now on his 9th life. Running with a guildie, I decided to note what quests we did, and the tally up my comms after we reached cap. Which we just did.

Before we started on the epic quests, we got to 21 by doing heroic quests like Reaver's Reach stuff, some Amrath and some IQ things.

After that, we ran purely epic quests and always on EH and higher.

I am VIP, and have a greater epic tome. Generally ran with +4% ship buff, and always have voice on. VIP bonus is currently higher than normal, and we are on an xp weekend. I used three pots, one 10%, one 20% and one 30%. Each three hours. These covered about half my run time.


QUESTS
List of quests we ran:

EE: von 1-4, IDx2, UGx2, Lost thread, LoD, 2 high road quests, deal and the demon
EH: BFE, Ssch chain, demon web chain, wheloon chain, LoD, SotO, Beyond the Rift, Well^3, con3, 3x high road q, GH apart from raid, study in sable, storm horns chain, druid deep chain

All these were once-per-day, and thus gave comms. Beyond the above, I ran one more ID on EE that did not give comms.

I took xp rewards from two sagas, but not from the three(or four?) others I completed.

We did not have streak on GH quests, LoD, SotO, Beyond the Rift, and Wheloon chain, but we did on everything else. We had first time bonus on everything, of course.


AREAS
Storm Horns: 118 army, 215 nature, 15 explorers, 4 rares.
Wheloon Prison: 414 slayers, 8 explorers, 5 rares.
Gianthold: 4 dragons, 173 giants, 107 other races, 20 explorers, 5 rares.
The Underdark: 38 slayers, 4 liberator, 2 explorers, 0 rares.
Ssch: 78 drow, 19 children, 2 rares, all 24 explorers.
The Demonweb: 18 drow, 44 spiders, 21 fiends, 4 rares, 13 explorers.
The High Road: 103 slayers, 6 rares, all 12 explorers.
King's Forest: 371 slayers, 15 rares, all 40 explorers.


COMMS
My total of vcomms after this run was 1472. I could have had 33 more, but in one case (and only one), I did NOT take the comms but took a named item for reward. Thus, I could have had 33 more. For a total of 1505 vcomms.


CONCLUSION
I acknowledge that with VIP bonus and the use I made of pots, I came to cap faster than I would otherwise. So I did not expect to have the 4200 vcomms after this run, especially since I made some use of a couple of explorer areas and got the first 300k xp outside epic quests.
But I must admit, I did not expect to have only 36% of the needed vcomms for a heart, since we ran some on EE and I didn't just farm high xp quests. I ran GH for flag, flagged for CITW, ran wheloon, druid deep, high road and storm horns chains, as well as doing A Study in Sable. Ran lots of different stuff, not just lowlevel or high xp stuff.

Is this WAI, devs? Let's say I could've gotten 50% vcomms more if I didn't use pots, and we didn't have xp bonuses running. Even so, I'd only be around 54% of the needed vcomms.

I read that we were supposed to get a heart if we ran EH to cap, and took vcomms as rewards all the time. I do not believe this is the case. Can you please enlighten me why my experience is so far from the stated goal?

Is the conclusion here that I should drop VIP, keep away from using TP on pots and tomes of xp, in order for this to work? Is that what you want?

Yes, this is WAI. If you just got given a heart upon reaching cap, they wouldn't exist in store.

[Qhualor]

if it takes no voice, xp pots, no epic tomes, ship xp buff, no first time bonus, skipping low Comm quests to focus on high Comm quests, etc than I expect the devs to make an adjustment. if it affects their store sales, we can expect a change.

[jalont]

if it takes no voice, xp pots, no epic tomes, ship xp buff, no first time bonus, skipping low Comm quests to focus on high Comm quests, etc than I expect the devs to make an adjustment. if it affects their store sales, we can expect a change.

lols. Effects their store sales? If everyone earned a heart by leveling to 28, there would be NO store sales. Epic reincarnating can only happen once you reach 28..... If you're given a heart upon reaching 28, no one would ever have a need to buy a heart.

[Qhualor]

lols. Effects their store sales? If everyone earned a heart by leveling to 28, there would be NO store sales. Epic reincarnating can only happen once you reach 28..... If you're given a heart upon reaching 28, no one would ever have a need to buy a heart.

not what I meant. if you reach level 28 without even earning half the required Comms to ER, that affects their store sales. the only thing they could profit from is maybe people just buying the heart to ER and earn a free one about every other life or every 3rd life.

[Teh_Ghoul]

lols. Effects their store sales? If everyone earned a heart by leveling to 28, there would be NO store sales. Epic reincarnating can only happen once you reach 28..... If you're given a heart upon reaching 28, no one would ever have a need to buy a heart.

And so now people won't use xp potions, buy epic xp tomes, or buy otto's stones, they'll farm hearts and buy nothing. You know you're right buying nothing is much better than the money they could have gotten from potions, tomes, and stones.

[Dandonk]

I posted this in another thread. Posting it again here (updated) because the other thread devolved quickly.


I bought a heart the day etr came out because I was already capped and just wanted to get the ball rolling.

The first run back to cap I did as I usually did when I tr, focus on xp. Well I got to cap and still needed about ~2000 comms, the grind seemed ridiculous. But I eventually got them and did another etr.

Second time around I decided to put more focus on comms rather than doing daily von3s and wiz king runs. Doing mostly epic hard, but doing the highest level quests I was allowed to run, so that meant doing epic hard gianthold at level 22 and wheloon on epic hard at level 23, etc. Now I'm about 800k xp from level 28 and I'm sitting at ~4311 comms(iirc). So I probably could have done a few xp runs in there as well. My routine was to do wheloon skipping the last part, then druid's curse, then high road, then gianthold walkups including 'cabal for one' but not crucible, all on EH, then doing ID on EE. That was about 500 comms in 3 hours or so.

I used no xp pots, don't have the epic xp tome, didn't use voice or mantle and didn't bother with ship buffs and didn't get first time bonus for any quest.

I think by the time everyone works out an efficient system, doing a life per week at a casual pace(3 hours a night at a zerg) will be possible, without buying xp stones, hearts, xp pots, etc.

Interesting. I wasn't aware that the "4200 comms gained trough EH" had the small print of "do it at highest level possible, while using no xp boosts at all, and no first time bonuses, and run the same quests over and over". But OK.

[EllisDee37]

Interesting. I wasn't aware that the "4200 comms gained trough EH" had the small print of "do it at highest level possible, while using no xp boosts at all, and no first time bonuses, and run the same quests over and over". But OK.It's more along the lines of run every epic quest on EH 3x each and you'll generate ~7 million xp and ~4200 comms.

A rough approximation of how they came up with the 4200 number is that they took the average xp people actually earn on the live servers running EH as the "base xp" amount for each epic quest. They added up all the xp you get for running every quest on EH once, figured the % that got you to 28, extrapolated out how much valor you'd end up with repeating all quests evenly to get to 28, and then based the heart cost on how much valor that would get you.

[Dandonk]

It's more along the lines of run every epic quest on EH 3x each and you'll generate ~7 million xp and ~4200 comms.

A rough approximation of how they came up with the 4200 number is that they took the average xp people actually earn on the live servers running EH as the "base xp" amount for each epic quest. They added up all the xp you get for running every quest on EH once, figured the % that got you to 28, extrapolated out how much valor you'd end up with repeating all quests evenly to get to 28, and then based the heart cost on how much valor that would get you.

Ah, so they do mean that I should die and renter in every quest, while not use pots or tomes or being VIP? Seems silly to me. If I support them, they make it more annoying for me to grind a heart. If not, it's less annoying.

[maddong]

Well its a reason to run the expansion pack. Level 22 gets you into Wheloon. Level 23 gets you into Stormhorns. Might as well give up the streak bonus too and just start them on normal once you can.

[Teh_Ghoul]

Well its a reason to run the expansion pack. Level 22 gets you into Wheloon. Level 23 gets you into Stormhorns. Might as well give up the streak bonus too and just start them on normal once you can.

Now if only the graphic effects in the expansion didn't make playing them as fun as ramming a needle into your eyes.

[axel15810]

This is such a math nightmare. I wonder why they went this route instead of doing something simple - Say create an NPC that you can talk to only once you get to lvl 28 that has you get a certain number, say 30, epic quest completions for an epic heart. One heart per life. You can do any epic quest, but each quest only counts one time per difficulty level to encourage running a lot of different content/ discourage farming. EH counting as 1 completion and EE as 1 1/2 completions. Would have been so simple and fair. And awesome for quest diversity.

[EllisDee37]

Ah, so they do mean that I should die and renter in every quest, while not use pots or tomes or being VIP?No.

[Teh_Ghoul]

No.

I disagree with the die and renter part but with less xp buffs the grind is less aggravating.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

I think by the time everyone works out an efficient system, doing a life per week at a casual pace(3 hours a night at a zerg) will be possible, without buying xp stones, hearts, xp pots, etc.


3 hours a night on a single toon for a whole week, and zerging is casual?


That's a part time job! Where's my freaking pay cheque?

[Steevye]

Now if only the graphic effects in the expansion didn't make playing them as fun as ramming a needle into your eyes.

You don't enjoy the seizure inducing Shadowfail? Come on, I've had a blast the three times I entered that area and found myself running into walls minutes after losing consciousness. I don't know why anyone wouldn't love that place.

[Dandonk]

No.

That must be what the maths are based on, otherwise I do not see how it can possibly be as stated.

[EllisDee37]

That must be what the maths are based on, otherwise I do not see how it can possibly be as stated.As already explained to you, the math is based on actual average XP earned on live servers.

[Dandonk]

As already explained to you, the math is based on actual average XP earned on live servers.

So they say. I do not believe it. This would mean that people were reentering, dying left and right, never using pots, not being VIPs and not buying tomes - as well as not going for optionals, nor getting bonuses for anything inside the quests.

So yeah... but no. I do not believe it.

[Daemoneyes]

So they say. I do not believe it. This would mean that people were reentering, dying left and right, never using pots, not being VIPs and not buying tomes - as well as not going for optionals, nor getting bonuses for anything inside the quests.

So yeah... but no. I do not believe it.

People are reentering and dying left and right, dont forget that there are a lot of casuals that die their way up.
But still, a system where pots/vip/tomes are useless is ridicules.
If nothing else those things should give you a bonus to Valor gain, perhaps +2 Valor per 5% xp bonus.

[Dandonk]

But still, a system where pots/vip/tomes are useless is ridicules.
If nothing else those things should give you a bonus to Valor gain, perhaps +2 Valor per 5% xp bonus.

Very true. And good idea.

[kned225]

I read that we were supposed to get a heart if we ran EH to cap, and took vcomms as rewards all the time


Dev posted a couple weeks back that the idea of a "once and done" on eh to get a heart was absolutely never intended. It was a miscommunication of some sort. I dont have the link but im sure someone can find it

[SirValentine]

But still, a system where pots/vip/tomes are useless is ridicules.


If you average "X" comms per quest, it takes you 4200/"X"="Y" quests to get 4200 comms.

I must admit, I don't really get the complaints.

Is it really a problem if you run some of those quests while already being level 28?

What's the advantage of running EXACTLY THE SAME number of quests, but being lower level while doing so?

More XP just means you spend the same time getting comms for a heart, but part of that time at 28 instead of lower level. Why is that bad?

Not to say 4200 is a great number, but the "drop VIP, die, re-enter, don't use Voice or ship XP buff" stuff doesn't make any sense at all.

[morkahn82]

Not to say 4200 is a great number, ...

it is a great number.

42 is the Answer to The Ultimate Question of Past Life, the DDO Universe, and Everything. The devs had problems with granularity, because people should run more than 42 quests to get an epic TR heart, so they choose finer granularity i.e. 42*100=4200.

So, to not mess up with the laws of time and space turbine should not lower the comms needed, they should rather increase the commendation drops.

[EllisDee37]

So they say. I do not believe it. This would mean that people were reentering, dying left and right, never using pots, not being VIPs and not buying tomes - as well as not going for optionals, nor getting bonuses for anything inside the quests.

So yeah... but no. I do not believe it.No, you're focused on optimal xp farming. That is not what the "run on EH and get your heart by cap" math was based on. It was based on running every single epic quest an equal number of times. As in, running VON3 no more (or less) than you run Druid's Deep.

[Qhualor]

Dev posted a couple weeks back that the idea of a "once and done" on eh to get a heart was absolutely never intended. It was a miscommunication of some sort. I dont have the link but im sure someone can find it

What they meant to say was 1 cycle apparently. I know for a fact you can one and done to 25 with a handful of quests, raids, the new quests added the past 6 months left over and no Shadowfell. Thats with only ship xp buff. They can call it a cycle or one and done, but either way, while leveling to 28 you won't even earn half the required Comms to buy a EHoW.

[Miow]

No, you're focused on optimal xp farming. That is not what the "run on EH and get your heart by cap" math was based on. It was based on running every single epic quest an equal number of times. As in, running VON3 no more (or less) than you run Druid's Deep.

The same could be said for tokens the difference being we used to farm specific quests for tokens not exp. Now i guess they want you to diversify what you run to maximize coms. It becomes a choice...

[Dandonk]

Dev posted a couple weeks back that the idea of a "once and done" on eh to get a heart was absolutely never intended. It was a miscommunication of some sort. I dont have the link but im sure someone can find it

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/429363-Earning-Hearts-of-Wood-%28Second-Life%29?p=5152334#post5152334

"Our current plan is that Iconic and Epic Hearts of Wood each require 4200 Commendations of Valor. This is close to our estimate of how many Commendations of Valor you would get from playing Epic Hard, non-ransacked quests and usually taking Commendations as the end reward, based on how many quests characters would finish between levels 20-28 (again, on Epic Hard)."

This seems clear and not open to misinterpretation for me. I ran EH, except for the EEs (which gives more comms than EH), and I ended up with around a third of the comms needed to get a heart. I did not "usually" take comms, I took them every single time except once, and my total was with the 33 I did not take included.


If you average "X" comms per quest, it takes you 4200/"X"="Y" quests to get 4200 comms.

I must admit, I don't really get the complaints.

Is it really a problem if you run some of those quests while already being level 28?

What's the advantage of running EXACTLY THE SAME number of quests, but being lower level while doing so?

More XP just means you spend the same time getting comms for a heart, but part of that time at 28 instead of lower level. Why is that bad?

Not to say 4200 is a great number, but the "drop VIP, die, re-enter, don't use Voice or ship XP buff" stuff doesn't make any sense at all.

People do not use xp pots, or any other xp boosts, in heroic in order to take the same time to TR but be granted the "privilege" of running the last two days at level 20 instead of using those days levelling.

When you're at cap, you lose the sense of progress. So yes, it's a problem that this mechanic does not reward purchases/VIP status etc, since you're going to get to the goal at exactly the same speed as not having those boosts. It seems counterproductive to me to lessesn the value of store purchases/VIP in this way.

The number of comms needed for a heart was supposed to be based on running EH oncer-per-day quests to cap. This is NOT the case in the game as it is. I would like the devs to actually stand by their word and make the comms needed close to the comms gained.
I did not force them to make the statement, but they did - and thus, I'm not asking for anything not promised.

[HAL]

If you average "X" comms per quest, it takes you 4200/"X"="Y" quests to get 4200 comms.

I must admit, I don't really get the complaints.

Is it really a problem if you run some of those quests while already being level 28?

What's the advantage of running EXACTLY THE SAME number of quests, but being lower level while doing so?

More XP just means you spend the same time getting comms for a heart, but part of that time at 28 instead of lower level. Why is that bad?

Not to say 4200 is a great number, but the "drop VIP, die, re-enter, don't use Voice or ship XP buff" stuff doesn't make any sense at all.

People use XP buffs to get to cap faster so they can TR faster, not so they can sit at cap. If they can't TR faster using XP buffs, many people will say "why bother using them?" I would guess that a large percentage of people who TR don't need the "advantage" of being at level cap in order to grind their quests more easily. And the people who would like that advantage are probably newer to the TR scene and don't use all the XP buffs.

Really it's not a question of why not keep using XP buffs, but why pay to use them if they don't get you the intended result.

(Ninja'd by Dandonk :) )

[Teh_Ghoul]

(Ninja'd by Dandonk :) )

But needs to be said over and over and tatooed onto peoples heads until it sinks in with the powers that be.

[Paleus]

And so now people won't use xp potions, buy epic xp tomes, or buy otto's stones, they'll farm hearts and buy nothing. You know you're right buying nothing is much better than the money they could have gotten from potions, tomes, and stones.

This was noted well in advance of the CoV for hearts going live. It seems Turbine, and some players, should take a lesson from Black Friday sales on the concept of "loss leader." Sell or give away something at a greatly reduced cost to stimulate sales in other items. The current state of CoV for hearts could be a net loss for Turbine if they only gain themselves a few sales from hearts but lose a lot of the otto stones, xp potions, xp tomes, and incentives for people to be VIP with an XP bonus.

I'm sure the preference would be for people to still buy all the stones, pots, and tomes and then buy a heart on top of that. But, while noting that I have no sales data to back up my assumptions, my gut is telling me that won't be the outcome.

[Kaytis]

I sympathize with the OP. My two mains were capped, or nearly so when update 20 went live. Every day since then I have spent at least half my time running the same three boring quests over and over and over again, punctuated by more boredom running the sagas over and over. I always take the coms. I could quite literally have leveled back to 28 two times over at this point.

I have just over 3000 coms and I am sick to death of it.

I signed up for VIP to get a heart on all my toons. I will cancel my sub the day after they get them.

There is no way I will ever buy a heart for 4200 coms either. I will wait for them to lower the price or find something else to do.

In a nutshell: I find it offensive that I am forced to effectively level to 28 three times just for the honor of doing it one more time with benefits. Whoever thought 4200 coms was a good number needs their head examined.

[Lauf]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/429363-Earning-Hearts-of-Wood-%28Second-Life%29?p=5152334#post5152334

"Our current plan is that Iconic and Epic Hearts of Wood each require 4200 Commendations of Valor. This is close to our estimate of how many Commendations of Valor you would get from playing Epic Hard, non-ransacked quests and usually taking Commendations as the end reward, based on how many quests characters would finish between levels 20-28 (again, on Epic Hard)."

This seems clear and not open to misinterpretation for me.

The number of comms needed for a heart was supposed to be based on running EH oncer-per-day quests to cap. This is NOT the case in the game as it is. I would like the devs to actually stand by their word and make the comms needed close to the comms gained.
I did not force them to make the statement, but they did - and thus, I'm not asking for anything not promised.

could not have said it better myself. QFT.

[oweieie]

Turbine's solution will be to halve XP rewards for epic quests. Then they will halve them again. Then they will adjust them back upwards but still be below the original halving.

For those who aren't paying attention, this is how they destroyed challenges and made it so no one ever did them ever again. (And since they don't give comms no one will really ever ever do them again)

You will all owe me a cookie when history proves me right.

[jalont]

And so now people won't use xp potions, buy epic xp tomes, or buy otto's stones, they'll farm hearts and buy nothing. You know you're right buying nothing is much better than the money they could have gotten from potions, tomes, and stones.

That's just silly. I buy xp pots and tomes all the time and it doesn't cost me a dime. What else are you going to spend the million free TP you earn on? If I were to stop buying these things, there would be no decrease in money coming in to Turbine. As for stones, if people are willing to p2w anyway, then TRing, stoning and grinding out coms for epic tr is always a better option than not doing so.

[Erdrique]

This has already been mentioned in a few other posts as well, where folks have capped from 20 to 28 and have received less than half of the number of commendations needed to get an Epic Heart of Wood. When that number was first quoted/established, I initially thought it was too high and I always figured that it would be lowered at some point. Players keeping track of their commendations and posting them on the forums and how they have gained their experience helps to strengthen this argument and I hope the devs take note and lower the quantity of commendations needed to purchase a Epic Heart of Wood. One can always hope right :).

[slarden]

Great data! Thank you for spending the time on this.

I mostly run EH while leveling but have been running EE more to get coms. The 4200 # is definitely high. One evening of EE questing will still only get me 300 coms.

I think rewarding EE with the most coms makes sense, but I do question whether 100% 50% and 25% is the right formula. Let's face a casual player that runs EN simply can't epic reincarnate without buying a heart from the store.

I think 100% 75% 50% would make more sense. My EE runs are only marginally longer than EH runs so EE players still earn the highest coms/minute. I think Turbine can also safely lower the com requirement to 3500 and still have people complaining that it is too high.

[Thrudh]

This was noted well in advance of the CoV for hearts going live. It seems Turbine, and some players, should take a lesson from Black Friday sales on the concept of "loss leader." Sell or give away something at a greatly reduced cost to stimulate sales in other items. The current state of CoV for hearts could be a net loss for Turbine if they only gain themselves a few sales from hearts but lose a lot of the otto stones, xp potions, xp tomes, and incentives for people to be VIP with an XP bonus.

I'm sure the preference would be for people to still buy all the stones, pots, and tomes and then buy a heart on top of that. But, while noting that I have no sales data to back up my assumptions, my gut is telling me that won't be the outcome.

Almost anyone who buys a Ottos stone will be willing to buy a heart too. XP pot sales indeed may suffer though. They should lower the number of comms needed to 3500, AND make XP pots give % boosts to comms as well.

[AbyssalMage]

Ok, I am confused so don't flame me.

I notice the number of people saying that they earned less than half of the Comm's needed for ETR going from 20-28. If this is correct, let me state my confusion.

On your journey to 28, what XP bonus did you have? VIP? Pots? Shrine? Weekend? Streaks? Objectives? Tomes? Item?

It really does sound like the developer(s) figured the Comm's with having none of the above. So maybe this is part of the problem. Has anyone done the math on 20-28 using only the quest base xp on EH? Once that is known, maybe we can see how many Comm's that would provide and how close to 4.2k we are. The first part (how much xp) is just cut and paste as it is already posted in DDO Wiki. Adding the Comm's may take slightly more time but should be fairly fast if done while copying the xp over to the forums.

My confusion comes from there are currently too many variables when people play and post their results. Lets strip every variable out and focus on: Quest name, base xp (EH), Comm's. Then it is simple addition. Then we can make EDUCATED proposals on how to fix, if it needs fixing.

[Ryiah]

Almost anyone who buys a Ottos stone will be willing to buy a heart too. XP pot sales indeed may suffer though.

Considering that Otto's box stones are affected by XP potions, the 50% pots will be as popular as ever.

[Braegan]

Ok, I am confused so don't flame me.

I notice the number of people saying that they earned less than half of the Comm's needed for ETR going from 20-28. If this is correct, let me state my confusion.

On your journey to 28, what XP bonus did you have? VIP? Pots? Shrine? Weekend? Streaks? Objectives? Tomes? Item?

It really does sound like the developer(s) figured the Comm's with having none of the above. So maybe this is part of the problem. Has anyone done the math on 20-28 using only the quest base xp on EH? Once that is known, maybe we can see how many Comm's that would provide and how close to 4.2k we are. The first part (how much xp) is just cut and paste as it is already posted in DDO Wiki. Adding the Comm's may take slightly more time but should be fairly fast if done while copying the xp over to the forums.

My confusion comes from there are currently too many variables when people play and post their results. Lets strip every variable out and focus on: Quest name, base xp (EH), Comm's. Then it is simple addition. Then we can make EDUCATED proposals on how to fix, if it needs fixing.

Shamless plug, but here's what I posted earlier.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/431810-ATTN-Devs-Compiled-Data-Epic-XP-CoV

[Seikojin]

...snip
Is this WAI, devs? Let's say I could've gotten 50% vcomms more if I didn't use pots, and we didn't have xp bonuses running. Even so, I'd only be around 54% of the needed vcomms.

I read that we were supposed to get a heart if we ran EH to cap, and took vcomms as rewards all the time. I do not believe this is the case. Can you please enlighten me why my experience is so far from the stated goal?

Is the conclusion here that I should drop VIP, keep away from using TP on pots and tomes of xp, in order for this to work? Is that what you want?

It is WAI; never said that you should get the 4200 in one run. Were you able to get a TR heart in one run before Epics?

[Dandonk]

It is WAI; never said that you should get the 4200 in one run. Were you able to get a TR heart in one run before Epics?

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...34#post5152334

"Our current plan is that Iconic and Epic Hearts of Wood each require 4200 Commendations of Valor. This is close to our estimate of how many Commendations of Valor you would get from playing Epic Hard, non-ransacked quests and usually taking Commendations as the end reward, based on how many quests characters would finish between levels 20-28 (again, on Epic Hard)."

[Kaytis]

Ok, I am confused so don't flame me.

I notice the number of people saying that they earned less than half of the Comm's needed for ETR going from 20-28. If this is correct, let me state my confusion.

On your journey to 28, what XP bonus did you have? VIP? Pots? Shrine? Weekend? Streaks? Objectives? Tomes? Item?

It really does sound like the developer(s) figured the Comm's with having none of the above. So maybe this is part of the problem. Has anyone done the math on 20-28 using only the quest base xp on EH? Once that is known, maybe we can see how many Comm's that would provide and how close to 4.2k we are. The first part (how much xp) is just cut and paste as it is already posted in DDO Wiki. Adding the Comm's may take slightly more time but should be fairly fast if done while copying the xp over to the forums.

My confusion comes from there are currently too many variables when people play and post their results. Lets strip every variable out and focus on: Quest name, base xp (EH), Comm's. Then it is simple addition. Then we can make EDUCATED proposals on how to fix, if it needs fixing.

It is possible to get from 20 to 28 streaking EH with a lesser tome of learning, voice, and a 5% shrine. You don't need anything else except possibly a handful of VON IIIs -and maybe not even that. I took my sorc, who has a greater tome of learning, and with just the voice, and 5% shrine, from 20 to 28 without ever setting foot in Shadowfell. There were a few VON IIIs along the way for sure in her case.

But basically, a reasonably geared toon, i.e. ship shrine, voice, some kind of tome, can epic hard streak to 28 effortlessly -nothing else is needed. No where near enough coms will be collected along the way. You will be lucky to get 1000 in practice.

And before I get the the usual forum paladin "but you will not be able to streak on the second pass" responses, I fully intend to follow the ETR with a heroic TR to optimize the leveling process (as soon as they can assure me I won't lose my tomes and destiny xp in the process).

[Portalcat]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...34#post5152334

"Our current plan is that Iconic and Epic Hearts of Wood each require 4200 Commendations of Valor. This is close to our estimate of how many Commendations of Valor you would get from playing Epic Hard, non-ransacked quests and usually taking Commendations as the end reward, based on how many quests characters would finish between levels 20-28 (again, on Epic Hard)."

I think people have read certain entitlements into that statement which aren't there.

They never said you could run EH to level cap in a way that sensibly optimizes for XP whatsoever. As has been mentioned in this thread, someone showed that running each quest on EH 3x would get you roughly the XP and the comms at the same time, assuming no tomes or pots. This is not how people on the heroic TR hamster wheel typically run heroic lives, where XP is the only factor that needs to optimized for.

The whole thrust of the system is to break the paradigm of only farming high xp/min quests and instead rewarding a more varied approach. People who run epic content with the mentality that XP is end-all-be-all are going to run into a wall because it's not the rate-limiting factor in this system. Since the system exists entirely in addition to the previous ones and these players aren't actually losing anything by having things like XP tomes, it seems presumptuous and entitled to complain about getting any kind of raw deal from a pure bonus just because it requires a different approach to optimize than people are used to.

[maddmatt70]

My completionist project, Dantig, is now on his 9th life. Running with a guildie, I decided to note what quests we did, and the tally up my comms after we reached cap. Which we just did.

Before we started on the epic quests, we got to 21 by doing heroic quests like Reaver's Reach stuff, some Amrath and some IQ things.

After that, we ran purely epic quests and always on EH and higher.

I am VIP, and have a greater epic tome. Generally ran with +4% ship buff, and always have voice on. VIP bonus is currently higher than normal, and we are on an xp weekend. I used three pots, one 10%, one 20% and one 30%. Each three hours. These covered about half my run time.


QUESTS
List of quests we ran:

EE: von 1-4, IDx2, UGx2, Lost thread, LoD, 2 high road quests, deal and the demon
EH: BFE, Ssch chain, demon web chain, wheloon chain, LoD, SotO, Beyond the Rift, Well^3, con3, 3x high road q, GH apart from raid, study in sable, storm horns chain, druid deep chain

All these were once-per-day, and thus gave comms. Beyond the above, I ran one more ID on EE that did not give comms.

I took xp rewards from two sagas, but not from the three(or four?) others I completed.

We did not have streak on GH quests, LoD, SotO, Beyond the Rift, and Wheloon chain, but we did on everything else. We had first time bonus on everything, of course.


AREAS
Storm Horns: 118 army, 215 nature, 15 explorers, 4 rares.
Wheloon Prison: 414 slayers, 8 explorers, 5 rares.
Gianthold: 4 dragons, 173 giants, 107 other races, 20 explorers, 5 rares.
The Underdark: 38 slayers, 4 liberator, 2 explorers, 0 rares.
Ssch: 78 drow, 19 children, 2 rares, all 24 explorers.
The Demonweb: 18 drow, 44 spiders, 21 fiends, 4 rares, 13 explorers.
The High Road: 103 slayers, 6 rares, all 12 explorers.
King's Forest: 371 slayers, 15 rares, all 40 explorers.


COMMS
My total of vcomms after this run was 1472. I could have had 33 more, but in one case (and only one), I did NOT take the comms but took a named item for reward. Thus, I could have had 33 more. For a total of 1505 vcomms.


CONCLUSION
I acknowledge that with VIP bonus and the use I made of pots, I came to cap faster than I would otherwise. So I did not expect to have the 4200 vcomms after this run, especially since I made some use of a couple of explorer areas and got the first 300k xp outside epic quests.
But I must admit, I did not expect to have only 36% of the needed vcomms for a heart, since we ran some on EE and I didn't just farm high xp quests. I ran GH for flag, flagged for CITW, ran wheloon, druid deep, high road and storm horns chains, as well as doing A Study in Sable. Ran lots of different stuff, not just lowlevel or high xp stuff.

Is this WAI, devs? Let's say I could've gotten 50% vcomms more if I didn't use pots, and we didn't have xp bonuses running. Even so, I'd only be around 54% of the needed vcomms.

I read that we were supposed to get a heart if we ran EH to cap, and took vcomms as rewards all the time. I do not believe this is the case. Can you please enlighten me why my experience is so far from the stated goal?

Is the conclusion here that I should drop VIP, keep away from using TP on pots and tomes of xp, in order for this to work? Is that what you want?

My conclusion is far different then yours.
1. in 6 months the level cap goes up to 30 which will mean millions of more experience will be required to level cap and in fact probably close to double what is currently required. Vcomms will be easy to come by and after levelling to 30 no more grind will be required at that point.
2. Turbine is giving everybody's characters that is a VIP a free epic heart. Which will alleviate the grind per character quite a bit.
3. You are running inefficient quests to get vcomms.
4. Some grind is obvoiusly o.k.

For me the big thing is Turbine listened to our concerns and is giving everyone a free epic heart that is a VIP on all their characters. That will greatly reduce this issue for the vast vast majority of the playerbase and those that are not VIP well they can sign up or not sign and do some grinding instead - its their choice. Here you are complaining about something that will be a total non issue in 6 months time when the level cap goes up to 30. You are just another one of those players that can not adapt to changes in the game. Shrug you can always play something else.

[AbyssalMage]

Shamless plug, but here's what I posted earlier.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/431810-ATTN-Devs-Compiled-Data-Epic-XP-CoV

Thanks, it is a start but I notice you have BB on a few quests, S/R/E explorer XP, and from a previous post you leveled over the xp weekend (If I remember correctly) which still leaves too many variables. If we cut out those variables where would you be level wise? level 24, early 25? That is the first part of the problem.


It is possible to get from 20 to 28 streaking EH with a lesser tome of learning, voice, and a 5% shrine. You don't need anything else except possibly a handful of VON IIIs -and maybe not even that. I took my sorc, who has a greater tome of learning, and with just the voice, and 5% shrine, from 20 to 28 without ever setting foot in Shadowfell. There were a few VON IIIs along the way for sure in her case.

But basically, a reasonably geared toon, i.e. ship shrine, voice, some kind of tome, can epic hard streak to 28 effortlessly -nothing else is needed. No where near enough coms will be collected along the way. You will be lucky to get 1000 in practice.

And before I get the the usual forum paladin "but you will not be able to streak on the second pass" responses, I fully intend to follow the ETR with a heroic TR to optimize the leveling process (as soon as they can assure me I won't lose my tomes and destiny xp in the process).
What if the Comm amount was based on a totally unrealistic perspective on "a reasonable geared toon?" That is why we need to strip the variables out to see how many Comm's are available between 20 and 28. I have a feeling we will see close to 4k Comm's available if we look strictly at base xp only with no additional sources. This is only a theory though :(

[Dandonk]

My conclusion is far different then yours.
1. in 6 months the level cap goes up to 30 which will mean millions of more experience will be required to level cap and in fact probably close to double what is currently required. Vcomms will be easy to come by and after levelling to 30 no more grind will be required at that point.
2. Turbine is giving everybody's characters that is a VIP a free epic heart. Which will alleviate the grind per character quite a bit.
3. You are running inefficient quests to get vcomms.
4. Some grind is obvoiusly o.k.

For me the big thing is Turbine listened to our concerns and is giving everyone a free epic heart that is a VIP on all their characters. That will greatly reduce this issue for the vast vast majority of the playerbase and those that are not VIP well they can sign up or not sign and do some grinding instead - its their choice. Here you are complaining about something that will be a total non issue in 6 months time when the level cap goes up to 30. You are just another one of those players that can not adapt to changes in the game. Shrug you can always play something else.

My conclusion is that the grind is not what they said it would be. Is yours different from that?

[bracelet]

Shrug you can always play something else.

This is about the only thing you added to the conversation. Elder scrolls online is coming and it looks delicious. If we don't get a reduction in the pre-grind before we can even grind to our advantage, the attrition is going to be very painful.

[Braegan]

Thanks, it is a start but I notice you have BB on a few quests, S/R/E explorer XP, and from a previous post you leveled over the xp weekend (If I remember correctly) which still leaves too many variables. If we cut out those variables where would you be level wise? level 24, early 25? That is the first part of the problem.


(

Well if you have any kind of streak you will have BB for the CiTW flagging quests as their is no heroic conterpart. Most of the quests I didn't have BB on.

The bonus xp is largely optional XP. I too was suprised how much that adds up to. I did no excessive S/R/E, just what I got on the way to the quest. And many times I would just invis and run at no time did I spend any time in wilderness just racking up kills. I'll edit my post to include S/R/E totals as well.

I did level a bit during the xp weekend. But those kinds of variables will always be present. Being VIP and Epic tome of Learning over that stretch would roughly equal out the same result. Perhaps having a higher ship bonus then +2% (which is what I had) and it would be close to equal.

I would like to see others post their findings as well. But I don't think we'd ever get one without any kind of variable.

[Seikojin]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...34#post5152334

"Our current plan is that Iconic and Epic Hearts of Wood each require 4200 Commendations of Valor. This is close to our estimate of how many Commendations of Valor you would get from playing Epic Hard, non-ransacked quests and usually taking Commendations as the end reward, based on how many quests characters would finish between levels 20-28 (again, on Epic Hard)."

Yeah, I don't see one run mentioned in that, at all.

However I do see enough pluralization that would suggest running EH since that is easier than EE. Multiple times, for months at a time, until you get your comms. I expected people to misconstrue the message to mean one run.

[Dandonk]

Yeah, I don't see one run mentioned in that, at all.

However I do see enough pluralization that would suggest running EH since that is easier than EE. Multiple times, for months at a time, until you get your comms. I expected people to misconstrue the message to mean one run.

"based on how many quests characters would finish between levels 20-28 (again, on Epic Hard)."

That strongly implies, to the point of being misleading if it's not just one run from 20 to 28, that we should get them running from 20 to 28. Once.

[maddmatt70]

My conclusion is that the grind is not what they said it would be. Is yours different from that?

Varg clarified what he said the grind would be i.e. that there could be some grind. You can check the dev posts for this. Obvioulsy until the level cap goes up to 30: doing explorers for xp, running non epic quests, running just lower level epic quests, and doing a few more efficient epic elites then before, not using xp pots will be more the way of things for the general population. I anticipate with the the free xp heart having to do extra grinding (or buy a heart) after about 3-4 epic past lives with my current playstyle which does not seem to bad. Somebody can always pay to win if they want and buy hearts and use xp pots and all that so nothing really new there.

[erethizon]

Great data! Thank you for spending the time on this.

I mostly run EH while leveling but have been running EE more to get coms. The 4200 # is definitely high. One evening of EE questing will still only get me 300 coms.

I think rewarding EE with the most coms makes sense, but I do question whether 100% 50% and 25% is the right formula. Let's face a casual player that runs EN simply can't epic reincarnate without buying a heart from the store.

I think 100% 75% 50% would make more sense. My EE runs are only marginally longer than EH runs so EE players still earn the highest coms/minute. I think Turbine can also safely lower the com requirement to 3500 and still have people complaining that it is too high.

I have to say both of your suggestions are very good. Lowering the total comm number from 4200 to 3500 seems like a good first step. It is the kind of thing I would expect from Turbine because it gives a little (so they won't have to take it back later) and let's them see how things go from there. Your other suggestion is also very important. The number of comms given from hard completions is so low compared to elite that running quests on hard is pretty much a waste of the quest. If I run a quest on hard I know I won't be able to get comms from that quest for another 18 hours which means I will lose out on any elite runs of that quests that I could catch later that day (this has happened to me before). So instead I find myself waiting around for elite groups only (was on a paladin before I TRed so soloing EE was not an option) because running quests on hard just doesn't pay enough. Bumping the hard reward up to 75% of the elite reward is a very good idea. I have had to drop group before because after waiting around for people for 20 minutes and only getting 3 of us, the leader decided to run the quest on hard instead of elite. It was a good thing I did, because an hour later I was in a group running the quest on elite and would have gotten only half the comms for that quest if I had wasted my time on hard earlier that day.

[Dandonk]

Varg clarified what he said the grind would be i.e. that there could be some grind. You can check the dev posts for this. Obvioulsy until the level cap goes up to 30: doing explorers for xp, running non epic quests, running just lower level epic quests, and doing a few more efficient epic elites then before, not using xp pots will be more the way of things for the general population. I anticipate with the the free xp heart having to do extra grinding (or buy a heart) after about 3-4 epic past lives with my current playstyle which does not seem to bad. Somebody can always pay to win if they want and buy hearts and use xp pots and all that so nothing really new there.

Some grind, yes. Equal to doing about three times the quests I'd already done? That's nowhere -near- what was posted.

[maddmatt70]

Some grind, yes. Equal to doing about three times the quests I'd already done? That's nowhere -near- what was posted.

If you change your playstyle somewhat, are VIP so you get the free heart, the grind will not be remotedly three times the quests. That is your unwillingness to not change your playstyle for the next 6 months. If you want to use xp pots, run low level high xp per minute low comm per minute quests, and buy epic tr hearts, go ahead that is your choice.

[Qhualor]

My conclusion is far different then yours.
1. in 6 months the level cap goes up to 30 which will mean millions of more experience will be required to level cap and in fact probably close to double what is currently required. Vcomms will be easy to come by and after levelling to 30 no more grind will be required at that point.
2. Turbine is giving everybody's characters that is a VIP a free epic heart. Which will alleviate the grind per character quite a bit.
3. You are running inefficient quests to get vcomms.
4. Some grind is obvoiusly o.k.

For me the big thing is Turbine listened to our concerns and is giving everyone a free epic heart that is a VIP on all their characters. That will greatly reduce this issue for the vast vast majority of the playerbase and those that are not VIP well they can sign up or not sign and do some grinding instead - its their choice. Here you are complaining about something that will be a total non issue in 6 months time when the level cap goes up to 30. You are just another one of those players that can not adapt to changes in the game. Shrug you can always play something else.

Mine is different than yours.

1. An increase in xp required to cap, but no word of more quests or how many so we don't have to grind till our eyes bleed to reach level 30. So far, 1 raid coming soon (TM).

2. Notice its for VIPs only. We can assume that many players are going VIP for at least a month. Either by selling a EHoW via store or enticing non VIPs to go VIP for the month, Turbine sneakily is making a profit either way.

3. At some point it would be nice to run quests because they are fun for me. Also, if the design is for most efficient Comms quests, than its broken.

4. Agree, but not the current Comm grind.

6 months time? Maybe for power gamers. The rest of us will be a year, but what about new players that have to go through the same grind taking at least a year for it to be a "non issue"? The complaints won't stop until a real adjustment is made or they change it to do what they said they were going to do.

[maddmatt70]

Mine is different than yours.

1. An increase in xp required to cap, but no word of more quests or how many so we don't have to grind till our eyes bleed to reach level 30. So far, 1 raid coming soon (TM).

2. Notice its for VIPs only. We can assume that many players are going VIP for at least a month. Either by selling a EHoW via store or enticing non VIPs to go VIP for the month, Turbine sneakily is making a profit either way.

3. At some point it would be nice to run quests because they are fun for me. Also, if the design is for most efficient Comms quests, than its broken.

4. Agree, but not the current Comm grind.

6 months time? Maybe for power gamers. The rest of us will be a year, but what about new players that have to go through the same grind taking at least a year for it to be a "non issue"? The complaints won't stop until a real adjustment is made or they change it to do what they said they were going to do.

The free epic hearts will help all of those casual players a ton. It takes them forever to level from 20-28 as is now they can just use that free heart they get and by the time they get back to level 28 the cap will be up to 30 so they will not experience this Vcomm problem because they will need so much more xp at that point.

XP will almost certainly be the bottleneck when the cap goes up to 30 and not Vcomms what that means is we will get our 4200 Vcomms prior to capping our character at level 30; hence, this whole concern about comms will be a non issue at that point or the grind for vcomms at cap will be minute in the alternative.

I can not answer your question about what is fun for you. Will levelling to 30 be fun? I have no idea, but the devs hopefully will have added another 15+ quests by that point. Hey I do not mind if they tweak a few things like getting all the explorer/slayers/etc. gives somebody a bunch of comms as a reward. Maybe tweaking epic normal up a little, but besides that not so much. People actually now have to debate whether to play epic hard or epic elite now which is great in my opinion.

[Teh_Troll]

If you change your playstyle somewhat, are VIP so you get the free heart, the grind will not be remotedly three times the quests. That is your unwillingness to not change your playstyle for the next 6 months. If you want to use xp pots, run low level high xp per minute low comm per minute quests, and buy epic tr hearts, go ahead that is your choice.

No playing DDO at all > changing my playstyle.

This game isn't good enough for me to bother to adapt to it's dumb changes.

2500 comms is far more reasonable than this asinine 4500 number. Seriously this is a dumber "end-game" than the ED grind.

[Teh_Troll]

I can not answer your question about what is fun for you. Will levelling to 30 be fun? I have no idea, but the devs hopefully will have added another 15+ quests by that point. Hey I do not mind if they tweak a few things like getting all the explorer/slayers/etc. gives somebody a bunch of comms as a reward. Maybe tweaking epic normal up a little, but besides that not so much. People actually now have to debate whether to play epic hard or epic elite now which is great in my opinion.

Oh what a load of malarky.

- Anyone can examine the trends and see the XP in any new content WILL SUCK. That's all we got in Shadowfail was a bucket of meh quests with lousy XP and bad loot. The higher drop-rate on comms was only to bolster the sales on this porr product.

- On coms-per-minute there's still no contest - EH all the way.

[badbob117]

I just capped a new toon, From level 20-28 and my cov count was at 1230. Granted i did not really care about grinding for covs. I just wanted to hit cap so i did my fair share of high xp quests. Although i did take em at almost every end reward. Managed to get my purple dragon night favor running all of motu on hard. did not touch one elite quest.

But yeah all in all, it seems way to high. The game is in rough shape man! Straight up messed up lately. Tomes are not dropping. No cool weapons are dropping anymore. Bugs up the wazoo, You have a choice of some coms or renown now. That is it/ No cool loot what so ever on one end reward this life for me and not one tome dropped from any quest or end reward. There is not much to get excited about.

I Don't even plan on doing any epic TR until they fix the loot, Make some exciting stuff to do at cap and make the game fun again. Right now with this grind as end game its pretty **** bleak! The game Cannot go on like this and prosper! We need some changes bigtime! It is sad state of affairs lately. :(

[Teh_Troll]

The question is this Turbine . .. do you want us ETRing or do you want us running things at cap over and over again to get coms to ETR?

Buying hearts is not an options for some. I'd be more included to do it if ETRing were fun and not a boring chore (6 million karma is ********, but a matter for another conversation).

2500 coms is still close to twice the number a person would get leveling running a reasonable quest progression.

[myliftkk_v2]

The free epic hearts will help all of those casual players a ton. It takes them forever to level from 20-28 as is now they can just use that free heart they get and by the time they get back to level 28 the cap will be up to 30 so they will not experience this Vcomm problem because they will need so much more xp at that point.

XP will almost certainly be the bottleneck when the cap goes up to 30 and not Vcomms what that means is we will get our 4200 Vcomms prior to capping our character at level 30; hence, this whole concern about comms will be a non issue at that point or the grind for vcomms at cap will be minute in the alternative.

I can not answer your question about what is fun for you. Will levelling to 30 be fun? I have no idea, but the devs hopefully will have added another 15+ quests by that point. Hey I do not mind if they tweak a few things like getting all the explorer/slayers/etc. gives somebody a bunch of comms as a reward. Maybe tweaking epic normal up a little, but besides that not so much. People actually now have to debate whether to play epic hard or epic elite now which is great in my opinion.

One free Epic heart is about as helpful as putting a dollar in a bum's tin cup. And that's if and only if, your toon's meet the requirements during the offer. So new players who might join later get no benefit whatsoever. But, perhaps they know their number of new players has slowed to a trickle. If the comm numbers weren't so high they wouldn't have to offer anything free.

Leveling to 30 will likely be easy.

[EllisDee37]

It really does sound like the developer(s) figured the Comm's with having none of the above. So maybe this is part of the problem. Has anyone done the math on 20-28 using only the quest base xp on EH? Once that is known, maybe we can see how many Comm's that would provide and how close to 4.2k we are. The first part (how much xp) is just cut and paste as it is already posted in DDO Wiki. Adding the Comm's may take slightly more time but should be fairly fast if done while copying the xp over to the forums.I did that here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/430836-Efficient-Valor-Farming-Techniques?p=5176970&viewfull=1#post5176970). Vargouille says that this process is fairly close to the actual process they used here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/430836-Efficient-Valor-Farming-Techniques/page15#post5177085).


No playing DDO at all > changing my playstyle.This is the key, really. Most of the complaints about comms are from people who do something like a daily VON3 run for xp, which will kill your comms:xp ratio by a million xp in a week. (Note: I am one of these people.)

If you maximize your xp you will be way short on comms. If you run everything evenly (druid's deep exactly as much as VON3, both the same as shadowfell, etc...) you'll hit 28 around the same time as you hit 4200 comms.


The problem is that no matter how well intentioned the new system, optimally grinding efficient xp is way, way, way, way too ingrained in the player base to ever hope for a change in their playstyle. It is simply never going to happen, ever. The best Turbine can hope for is everybody currently playing (and paying) will up and leave the game entirely but get replaced by new players who aren't so invested in optimal xp farming. That's really the only option.

4200 is way too high
3500 is way too high
2500 is about right

The reason is that you simply CANNOT evaluate all xp as the same. XP from good xp quests is far more important than xp from bad xp quests. If you run nothing but the first quest in Druid's Deep once a day every day on EH and run nothing else (maybe play another alt) you'd probably have like 6000 comms by the time you hit 28. And that doesn't matter to anybody because nobody would ever do that. Unfortunately, this is the same with the system the devs have created. Nobody will ever run it the way they envision it; we won't completely ignore the xp of the quests we're running. We just won't.

[EllisDee37]

Buying hearts is not an options for some. I'd be more included to do it if ETRing were fun and not a boring chore (6 million karma is ********, but a matter for another conversation).

2500 coms is still close to twice the number a person would get leveling running a reasonable quest progression.Agreed on both counts 100%, and just to clarify for Turbine, we play the game very differently. But we both come to the exact same conclusions.

[maddmatt70]

I did that here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/430836-Efficient-Valor-Farming-Techniques?p=5176970&viewfull=1#post5176970). Vargouille says that this process is fairly close to the actual process they used here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/430836-Efficient-Valor-Farming-Techniques/page15#post5177085).

This is the key, really. Most of the complaints about comms are from people who do something like a daily VON3 run for xp, which will kill your comms:xp ratio by a million xp in a week. (Note: I am one of these people.)

If you maximize your xp you will be way short on comms. If you run everything evenly (druid's deep exactly as much as VON3, both the same as shadowfell, etc...) you'll hit 28 around the same time as you hit 4200 comms.


The problem is that no matter how well intentioned the new system, optimally grinding efficient xp is way, way, way, way too ingrained in the player base to ever hope for a change in their playstyle. It is simply never going to happen, ever. The best Turbine can hope for is everybody currently playing (and paying) will up and leave the game entirely but get replaced by new players who aren't so invested in optimal xp farming. That's really the only option.

I agree that it is these Von3 optimal xp types who are complaining. They can choose to buy their epic hearts or run something else other then von3 basically it is up to them. Game is a lot more fun when you run more quests in my opinion. I think that a lot of people will change how they play - that is really the history of DDO. People change or quit or whatever. Really that is the history of any MMO. Running 'Von3' over and over is not a good game by anyone's estimation.

[Lauf]

we won't completely ignore the xp of the quests we're running. We just won't.

I have, and focused on com farming from 20 to 28. got 2700 coms.

sad but true.

[Jasparion]

It might not be stupidity.

Hard to get free, while new and shiny, so that those who are desperate will buy rather than grind. But it's been "under review" the whole time, so that when the sales drop, the number of comms required can be safely dropped as well without causing mass nerd-rage.

The only way to make them drop the number of comms is for people to not buy anything at all.

This.

They will not change anything as long as the cashed-up, hard-core players are buying.

[Dandonk]

I agree that it is these Von3 optimal xp types who are complaining.

I ran it twice during the run to 28. Twice. So sorry, but no.

[Dandonk]

I have, and focused on com farming from 20 to 28. got 2700 coms.

sad but true.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. The heart price does seem way off.

[Ilindith]

On my current life I ran every single quest on EH, excluding raids. I also repeated some of them, but on different days, so they gave me commendations again.

I took commendations for just about every single reward, except maybe 2-3 of them.

I ended up with roughly 1900 commendations.

4200 is just stupid and clearly chosen to make people buy hearts in the store.

[Gremmlynn]

People use XP buffs to get to cap faster so they can TR faster, not so they can sit at cap. If they can't TR faster using XP buffs, many people will say "why bother using them?" I would guess that a large percentage of people who TR don't need the "advantage" of being at level cap in order to grind their quests more easily. And the people who would like that advantage are probably newer to the TR scene and don't use all the XP buffs.

Really it's not a question of why not keep using XP buffs, but why pay to use them if they don't get you the intended result.

(Ninja'd by Dandonk :) )I guess the devs used the same logic I would by assuming anyone who would pay to cut down the xp grind and TR faster would also pay to cut down the comm grind by buying a heart if they didn't have the necessary comms.

Personally I don't see the point of paying extra, simply to skip ahead on the hamster wheel this game is as grinding comms for a 3rd life isn't noticeably different than grinding xp for a 5th. It's just something to play towards in either case and the biggest problem with the system is the 6 million karma that will be needed in off spheres (why add something to give players something to simply play towards, then make doing so not much fun?), but that's a different issue.

[Jasparion]

On my current life I ran every single quest on EH, excluding raids. I also repeated some of them, but on different days, so they gave me commendations again.

I took commendations for just about every single reward, except maybe 2-3 of them.

I ended up with roughly 1900 commendations.

4200 is just stupid and clearly chosen to make people buy hearts in the store.

Yep. Ive said it in another thread, but it really looks like their goal is to have us buy an Epic TR every second life.

[Gremmlynn]

This was noted well in advance of the CoV for hearts going live. It seems Turbine, and some players, should take a lesson from Black Friday sales on the concept of "loss leader." Sell or give away something at a greatly reduced cost to stimulate sales in other items. The current state of CoV for hearts could be a net loss for Turbine if they only gain themselves a few sales from hearts but lose a lot of the otto stones, xp potions, xp tomes, and incentives for people to be VIP with an XP bonus.My question is, outside of some of us that are hard core enough about this game to hang out here, how many actually buy those things? Or more to the point how many that do would also scoff at buying a heart? I run with a rather casual crowd and in my experience, not many do so and those who do wouldn't think twice about grabbing a heart from the store.


I'm sure the preference would be for people to still buy all the stones, pots, and tomes and then buy a heart on top of that. But, while noting that I have no sales data to back up my assumptions, my gut is telling me that won't be the outcome.With those I play with, more are likely to buy a heart to keep going than buy those other things simply to go faster.

[Gremmlynn]

It is possible to get from 20 to 28 streaking EH with a lesser tome of learning, voice, and a 5% shrine. You don't need anything else except possibly a handful of VON IIIs -and maybe not even that. I took my sorc, who has a greater tome of learning, and with just the voice, and 5% shrine, from 20 to 28 without ever setting foot in Shadowfell. There were a few VON IIIs along the way for sure in her case.

But basically, a reasonably geared toon, i.e. ship shrine, voice, some kind of tome, can epic hard streak to 28 effortlessly -nothing else is needed. No where near enough coms will be collected along the way. You will be lucky to get 1000 in practice.

And before I get the the usual forum paladin "but you will not be able to streak on the second pass" responses, I fully intend to follow the ETR with a heroic TR to optimize the leveling process (as soon as they can assure me I won't lose my tomes and destiny xp in the process).Except that epic hard streaking, or even first time bonus, get's used up on with the first epic "life". So likely weren't taken into account.

Hell, anyone can find a way to gain the least number of comms that could be gained going from 20-28, but it would be unreasonable to expect the devs to use that as their target. Personally, as they actually want there to be a demand for store hearts, I'd find it unreasonable for them to even use the average number gained, erring more on the side of leveling inefficiently. Expecting them to make the same mistakes, from their perspective, as they did with heroic hearts is rather silly. Despite the, not unreasonable at this late date, player reaction to their attempt to correct those mistakes.

[Gremmlynn]

3. At some point it would be nice to run quests because they are fun for me. Also, if the design is for most efficient Comms quests, than its broken.How is this any more broken than the claim in 2009, that most saw as reasonable, that one could own the whole game for free at 25TP/100 favor?

The whole reason they developed the game was to make money off it. Designing it so one must go out of their way to need to spend any money would seem to go against this goal. Though this seems to be a mistake the devs have made more than once (progressively easier free heroic TR hearts, resetting favor on heroic TR, etc).

[oweieie]

I agree that it is these Von3 optimal xp types who are complaining. They can choose to buy their epic hearts or run something else other then von3 basically it is up to them. Game is a lot more fun when you run more quests in my opinion. I think that a lot of people will change how they play - that is really the history of DDO. People change or quit or whatever. Really that is the history of any MMO. Running 'Von3' over and over is not a good game by anyone's estimation.

No, I didn't do von3 daily nor optimal. I completely ignored streak and just did quests that were posted. I also only took tomes for sagas. I came nowhere close to 4500 comms.

I guess it doesn't matter too much that "end reward based on class" is completely busted for a lot of the new quests since ALL YOU CAN TAKE is comms. But it means there are a hell of a lot less wraps on the AH, good luck getting a Sunder VI with a slot, or a focus V wand with a slot.

And as for quitting, that is exactly what people are doing. The number of active players is in the toilet right now. The game will be on life support come summer. Hurray ghostbane.

[oweieie]

How is this any more broken than the claim in 2009, that most saw as reasonable, that one could own the whole game for free at 25TP/100 favor?

The whole reason they developed the game was to make money off it. Designing it so one must go out of their way to need to spend any money would seem to go against this goal. Though this seems to be a mistake the devs have made more than once (progressively easier free heroic TR hearts, resetting favor on heroic TR, etc).

It works like this, 5% of people spend simply ludicrous amounts of cash buying otto's boxes and shards and selling them for in-game loot to others. 15% of people pump a bit of money in now and again and/or are VIP. 80% of players pay almost nothing but are there to keep the 5% happy.

[Qhualor]

How is this any more broken than the claim in 2009, that most saw as reasonable, that one could own the whole game for free at 25TP/100 favor?

The whole reason they developed the game was to make money off it. Designing it so one must go out of their way to need to spend any money would seem to go against this goal. Though this seems to be a mistake the devs have made more than once (progressively easier free heroic TR hearts, resetting favor on heroic TR, etc).

I was referring to a system designed to alleviate Comm grind by farming high Comm quests. how is that any different than the high xp/min quests that people were/still farm where you can cap with just 1k favor? it makes sense if you want the Comms to run only EE and the high level quests because you earn them faster and earn more of them than compared to lower level epics. at some point I want to run quests for loot. fun and yes, even shards/seals/scrolls. designing a system that has such a ridiculous intentional grind just to ER is ludicrous. im all in favor of finding ways to get people to run a wider variety of content and to buy packs, but this is the wrong kind of incentive.

[Braegan]

I agree that it is these Von3 optimal xp types who are complaining.

The facts shown in my thread refute your claim completely.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/431810-ATTN-Devs-Compiled-Data-Epic-XP-CoV

OP, I do appologize for linking my thread twice now. But, it's for the same cause! :)

[Lauf]

Personally, as they actually want there to be a demand for store hearts, I'd find it unreasonable for them to even use the average number gained, erring more on the side of leveling inefficiently.

I don't think anyone's expecting them to err on the side of leveling inefficiently, but rather admit that they aren't in the same ballpark as those who are EFFICIENTLY collecting coms, and FIX the current values, even if the new values would err on the side of caution (3k) rather than try to be relevant for the normal player (~2k).

I think you would find the debate about fine tuning would be far different than the one you're seeing now. as it stands it is unreasonable to expect anyone to farm for a heart while leveling, which is what they claimed they were trying to accomplish.

so either they were lying, or they've made an error in judgment. either way they aren't looking good at the moment.

[SilkofDrasnia]

The time it takes to go from 20~28 is considerably faster than getting 4200 valcoms. I sat on 23 and I am sitting now on 27 on my caster as I farm for ED XP and as I make my way through the spheres getting fate points and I have under 1k valcom and that is running EH sprinkled with some EE.

I have 3 levels in magister and draconic, 4 in fatesinger, 3 in shadowdancer and 4 in GMOF, 3 in US and I am about to hit level 3 in Exalted angel. Hah and I had 569 or so valcoms when I logged out earlier. I chose the valcoms except maybe twice as end rewards.

This char chose and started destinies THIS life after valcoms were added to the game. I understand they need to make cash but this is frackking ********, the balance between leveling and acquiring valcoms is just too far out of tune.

At this rate I will only get enough valcoms every 4 lives or more to be able to get a epic heart.

[Oxarhamar]

Thanks for sharing, good to know someone found SOME way in which this can be done.

I've tried to do the same, no xp pots, no high xp quests, no running explorers or optionals... everything on EH or EE, and only once did a quest without getting coms for it (a guildy needed a hand).

the end result was 2650 coms at level 28.


the only way I can explain such a difference between what you and I got is that you ran the highest possible quests as early as possible, while I was running level appropriate ~ quests. what's even more remarkable is that from all I've heard my 2.6k is far beyond what my friends and guildies were able to get while leveling... making your 4.3k a truly astonishing feat.

I think you forgot that half the 4.3k CoV were acquired in the first ETR. the OP of your quote gained 4.3 in the span of 2x 20-28

[SilkofDrasnia]

Interesting. I wasn't aware that the "4200 comms gained trough EH" had the small print of "do it at highest level possible, while using no xp boosts at all, and no first time bonuses, and run the same quests over and over". But OK.

I am sorry but EH and 500 coms in 3 hrs, SS or should I say a video for the complete uninterreupted 3 hrs or I call BS.

[Gremmlynn]

I was referring to a system designed to alleviate Comm grind by farming high Comm quests. how is that any different than the high xp/min quests that people were/still farm where you can cap with just 1k favor? it makes sense if you want the Comms to run only EE and the high level quests because you earn them faster and earn more of them than compared to lower level epics. at some point I want to run quests for loot. fun and yes, even shards/seals/scrolls. designing a system that has such a ridiculous intentional grind just to ER is ludicrous. im all in favor of finding ways to get people to run a wider variety of content and to buy packs, but this is the wrong kind of incentive.I actually think they designed a system, that if it worked, would provide enough of a profit margin for WB to consider giving it a budget. Something I doubt any system that made grinding comms as anywhere near as easy as grinding out heroic hearts couldn't do. Maybe it has as much chance of succeeding as a last second Hail Mary pass as time runs out, but that's still more than designing a system that's tantamount to kneeling down.

Getting people to run varied content, while nice, is not likely what 4200 comms is about. Hoping people buy some, or even most, of their hearts from the store in order to show the kind of returns WB expects on their money is much more likely what it is about. But don't expect anyone from Turbine to hint to us rats that the game might be a sinking ship as that would probably make anything they do futile.

[EllisDee37]

Personally, as they actually want there to be a demand for store hearts, I'd find it unreasonable for them to even use the average number gained, erring more on the side of leveling inefficiently. Expecting them to make the same mistakes, from their perspective, as they did with heroic hearts is rather silly. Despite the, not unreasonable at this late date, player reaction to their attempt to correct those mistakes.That's using the same dangerous assumption the devs are using, which is that epic hearts (like heroic hearts even before this ER system) are or should be a profit center. They aren't and they shouldn't. Instead of a profit center, they are a retention tool. And a vitally important one at that. The system as designed, with 4200 comms, will reduce income by reducing the number of people interested in doing the hamster wheel, which will result in lower player retention and less revenue for Turbine.

If nobody spent a single TP on epic hearts but everyone was ERing left and right that would translate into increased revenue for Turbine.

[Gremmlynn]

I don't think anyone's expecting them to err on the side of leveling inefficiently, but rather admit that they aren't in the same ballpark as those who are EFFICIENTLY collecting coms, and FIX the current values, even if the new values would err on the side of caution (3k) rather than try to be relevant for the normal player (~2k).

I think you would find the debate about fine tuning would be far different than the one you're seeing now. as it stands it is unreasonable to expect anyone to farm for a heart while leveling, which is what they claimed they were trying to accomplish.

so either they were lying, or they've made an error in judgment. either way they aren't looking good at the moment.I would also say it's rather unreasonable to expect anyone to own the whole game for free. But it is possible. Were they also lying in 2009 when they made that claim? Frankly, from the theoretical numbers I've seen 4200 seems quit close to what one would get by varying content and not having all the big xp easy buttons going. It's the pot's, tome's, streaks and other methods players use to avoid playing any more than they have to to gain levels that mess things up.

Cool, you want to play less, you can do so for 1295 TPs. Seems simple to me.

Personally, the game plays much the same whether I'm counting my progress in comms or my next epic past life, so it makes little difference which I'm grinding for. Both are just a way of simulating progress in my mind

[Gremmlynn]

That's using the same dangerous assumption the devs are using, which is that epic hearts (like heroic hearts even before this ER system) are or should be a profit center. They aren't and they shouldn't. Instead of a profit center, they are a retention tool. And a vitally important one at that. The system as designed, with 4200 comms, will reduce income by reducing the number of people interested in doing the hamster wheel, which will result in lower player retention and less revenue for Turbine.

If nobody spent a single TP on epic hearts but everyone was ERing left and right that would translate into increased revenue for Turbine.Actually, I'm making the assumption that if they aren't an effective profit center, the game is financially doomed regardless how many of us it retains.

Simply put, VIP's aren't enough to keep the game running, new players aren't coming in in enough numbers to even stabilize what they are losing from even what little departing premiums spend and the reason that's little is because the majority of premium players have reached the tipping point where most make more TP's per heroic life than they spend for new content and convenience items. Personally I don't think the game has a large enough player base to support itself, or at least support any sort of growth, with the system in place without a new persistent profit center.

As evidence, I'll put forth the fact that the only new paid content in 2013 was an underwhelming expansion, apparent low server populations, the plan that lead to players sitting on a bridge and the fact that eTR will not reset favor so as not to have Turbine basically paying us every time we do it like hTR does.

I hope someone can show me my assumption is way off the mark.

[Lauf]

Frankly, from the theoretical numbers I've seen 4200 seems quit close to what one would get by varying content and not having all the big xp easy buttons going.

please read the posts in this thread. The problem we're having is that the theory doesn't translate to in-game experience, even when not using pots/tomes/buffs etc.

real life com count for 20-28 on EH is anywhere from 1000 to 2500. I personally went all out for it while also occasionally running EE content and not using xp buffs, for a total of 2700.

so the theory doesn't hold water, and we would like to see it revisited and the numbers revised to reflect what was said they were intended to be.

not sure how I can make it any clearer.

[Braegan]

Frankly, from the theoretical numbers I've seen 4200 seems quit close to what one would get by varying content and not having all the big xp easy buttons going. It's the pot's, tome's, streaks and other methods players use to avoid playing any more than they have to to gain levels that mess things up.



Please read the thread I posted. No theory, but alot of fact that proves what you assume to be incorrect.

[Lauf]

Actually, I'm making the assumption that if they aren't an effective profit center, the game is financially doomed regardless how many of us it retains.

I hope someone can show me my assumption is way off the mark.

Gladly. In fact, all you need to do is read your own post.



eTR will not reset favor so as not to have Turbine basically paying us every time we do it


This basically means that all those heavy duty players (myself included) that currently can afford to get most everything with grinded tp, would stop earning tp and eventually start paying $$.

by making the epic hearts a profit center, turbine is driving players away from the eTR and back to heroic TRing, which means players will not only continue to earn free tp, but would also have less incentive to purchase the new content which is all aimed at epic levels.

so the more turbine pushes to make a buck off the epic/iconic hearts, the more it drives players away from paying and from playing. it WILL produce short term results, as many players (like myself) got stuck in epic levels, some couldn't be bothered with the grind and just paid for a heart. this doesn't mean they would willingly repeat the process. I know I won't.

some people I know are doing the math that it's better to be vip for a month and get a free heart then cancel, never to return to epic levels again.

so short term - more VIPs, more heart purchases, turbine's making money and everyone looks smart.
long term - less players playing epic levels, more people canceling VIPs, less players buying epic packs, and less players playing in general.

however if they make epic hearts readily available, you'll have less tp in players pockets, and suddenly people who enjoy playing the game will find themselves paying to get the new packs that are being released. you'll have happy costumers, a healthy game and (finally) some more money coming in.
that IMO is the right way to go about getting cash from players.

[Gremmlynn]

Please read the thread I posted. No theory, but alot of fact that proves what you assume to be incorrect.No, you just don't seem to be running within the theory is all. I think you are operating under the assumption that Turbine wants to give out free hearts to everyone at cap. More likely they intentionally ignored many optionals, any s/r/e (which would eventually cap out anyway without using methods not considered in their formula to renew them) and most of the bigger bonuses in order to generate sales through the very impatience that causes players to use those bonuses.

Personally I think they might be better off trying to sell the comms themselves and comm booster pots to make smaller sales every life rather than a big just the on the lives where comms come up short. But I don't have access to their data.

[Braegan]

No, you just don't seem to be running within the theory is all. I think you are operating under the assumption that Turbine wants to give out free hearts to everyone at cap. More likely they intentionally ignored many optionals, any s/r/e (which would eventually cap out anyway without using methods not considered in their formula to renew them) and most of the bigger bonuses in order to generate sales through the very impatience that causes players to use those bonuses.

Personally I think they might be better off trying to sell the comms themselves and comm booster pots to make smaller sales every life rather than a big just the on the lives where comms come up short. But I don't have access to their data.

No, I think you just answered quickly without even glancing at my thread.

I ran nearly every single quest in game, with minimal XP boosting and while now level 27 I have a paultry 1635 comms. Reading more in my thread you would find I did very little S/R/E. The current system is bad. I don't mind a little grind, but this is well beyond that.

Please respond when you have read my thread and see facts over theory.

[Gremmlynn]

Gladly. In fact, all you need to do is read your own post.



This basically means that all those heavy duty players (myself included) that currently can afford to get most everything with grinded tp, would stop earning tp and eventually start paying $$. For what? I doubt we have the player base left to make developing new content worth what they make off it. I also doubt as many overall players buy xp pots as the forum going minority.


by making the epic hearts a profit center, turbine is driving players away from the eTR and back to heroic TRing, which means players will not only continue to earn free tp, but would also have less incentive to purchase the new content which is all aimed at epic levels.Well that little demonstration on the bridge likely hasn't been adjusted for yet. Got to remember this was all though up along with heroic TRing becoming more of a payed option.


so the more turbine pushes to make a buck off the epic/iconic hearts, the more it drives players away from paying and from playing. it WILL produce short term results, as many players (like myself) got stuck in epic levels, some couldn't be bothered with the grind and just paid for a heart. this doesn't mean they would willingly repeat the process. I know I won't.Retaining customers in a money losing system is no worse than losing them with a system that can make money. The difference being that the money losing system has no chance, where the other only fails if it actually does lose customers.


some people I know are doing the math that it's better to be vip for a month and get a free heart then cancel, never to return to epic levels again.

so short term - more VIPs, more heart purchases, turbine's making money and everyone looks smart.
long term - less players playing epic levels, more people canceling VIPs, less players buying epic packs, and less players playing in general.As opposed to short and long term continuing to lose money?


however if they make epic hearts readily available, you'll have less tp in players pockets, and suddenly people who enjoy playing the game will find themselves paying to get the new packs that are being released. you'll have happy costumers, a healthy game and (finally) some more money coming in.
that IMO is the right way to go about getting cash from players.The problem with this is that it costs just as much to make packs for one million players as one thousand, but one million has a much higher return on investment. I wont say we've dropped that low, but would not be surprised if we are low enough to make developing new packs as more a player retention tool than a profit making one by the number of new non-expansion packs we saw this year (basically 2 of 2 quests each, one of which was an expansion lead in) and what we got for the price with the expansion.

Frankly, I think the game as at the point population wise where anything a new pack brings in would just defray some of the costs of developing it and keeping players paying for things like epic hearts on a regular basis being the only reason they even bother continuing to put them out.

[Vellrad]

If nobody spent a single TP on epic hearts but everyone was ERing left and right that would translate into increased revenue for Turbine.

I'm not so sure of that.

With BB and free XP pots (challenges, eberron etc), everyone I know earns more TP on TRing, than they spend on it.
Most TR to accumulate TP for various store purchases.
It looks like hearts are the way to get money out of it, because, from our point of viev, TRing is 0 income for turbines.

[Lauf]

I'm not so sure of that.

With BB and free XP pots (challenges, eberron etc), everyone I know earns more TP on TRing, than they spend on it.
Most TR to accumulate TP for various store purchases.
It looks like hearts are the way to get money out of it, because, from our point of viev, TRing is 0 income for turbines.

Favor doesn't reset on an eTR, so as long as you eTR, you won't accumulate any TP at all. heroic TRing is where you will get most of your TP.
as things stand now, it's harder to eTR than it is to hTR, which is the exact opposite of common sense marketing.
they are pushing the players to get more free TP, and be exposed to less new content. From where I'm sitting, that's called shooting yourself in the foot.

[Gremmlynn]

No, I think you just answered quickly without even glancing at my thread.

I ran nearly every single quest in game, with minimal XP boosting and while now level 27 I have a paultry 1635 comms. Reading more in my thread you would find I did very little S/R/E. The current system is bad. I don't mind a little grind, but this is well beyond that.

Please respond when you have read my thread and see facts over theory.No I answered after looking at EllisDee's numbers in the other thread he linked (basically every epic quest 3x on EH with just enough xp boosts to go slightly over what you need to cap from that). Which is likely much closer to the data the devs used than the experiences any of us who hang out in a game's forum would generate.

Other than that, the numbers just need to be adjusted for the boost to quest xp from the last update to be in-line with the player base's average.

[Gremmlynn]

Favor doesn't reset on an eTR, so as long as you eTR, you won't accumulate any TP at all. heroic TRing is where you will get most of your TP.
as things stand now, it's harder to eTR than it is to hTR, which is the exact opposite of common sense marketing.
they are pushing the players to get more free TP, and be exposed to less new content. From where I'm sitting, that's called shooting yourself in the foot.Iirc, it was some of us sitting on a bridge that shot them in the foot. hTRing was supposed to become much harder to do for free. They have been trying to, more or less, phase it out for a while now actually. Starting with the proposal to wipe ED xp.

[Braegan]

No I answered after looking at EllisDee's numbers in the other thread he linked (basically every epic quest 3x on EH with just enough xp boosts to go slightly over what you need to cap from that). Which is likely much closer to the data the devs used than the experiences any of us who hang out in a game's forum would generate.

Other than that, the numbers just need to be adjusted for the boost to quest xp from the last update to be in-line with the player base's average.

Then I say again, read my thread. Then respond. Mine isn't theory, it's fact.

The system is fail, I'll be capped Xp wise with half the comms needed to do an ETR. And that is following the pattern of hitting alot of varied content, with low to none xp boosting affects in place.

[Gremmlynn]

Then I say again, read my thread. Then respond. Mine isn't theory, it's fact.

The system is fail, I'll be capped Xp wise with half the comms needed to do an ETR. And that is following the pattern of hitting alot of varied content, with low to none xp boosting affects in place.I read it. All it is is one players experience. I also read the thread in which the data used to come up with the numbers was described. It discounted all forms of non-quest xp and used the actual data from every epic level character in the game to set the baseline. All your thread proves is that you are above the baseline as far as xp gaining goes.

Did you read that thread?

Edit: Read it again. ~25% of your xp came from non-quest sources.

[EllisDee37]

I'm not so sure of that.

With BB and free XP pots (challenges, eberron etc), everyone I know earns more TP on TRing, than they spend on it.
Most TR to accumulate TP for various store purchases.
It looks like hearts are the way to get money out of it, because, from our point of viev, TRing is 0 income for turbines.I mainly heroic tr, running all content on elite for TP. As in, that's most of what I do in the game, though I do keep a stable of epic characters for guild raids which we run twice weekly.

I'm happy to buy points each double point bonus sale for general expenses. Those include appearance kits, augments and tomes (both stat and xp.) I've owned all non-expansion adventure packs for almost a year now, so despite having nothing to spend TP on I still buy TP. Even though I get at least 750 TP every heroic TR. (All my lives end with at least 3000 favor.)

That makes me skeptical of your premise. I'm happy to keep buying TP (when on sale) just to have for whatever comes my way each life. I would not, however, buy hearts in the store, and if that's the only realistic way to earn them outside of extreme grind then I will not buy the hearts, not TR, and not buy points for whatever may come up next life because there won't be a next life.


*I also own both expansions, but those were both pre-ordered. I don't consider expansions as a TP purchase.

[SilkofDrasnia]

I read it. All it is is one players experience. I also read the thread in which the data used to come up with the numbers was described. It discounted all forms of non-quest xp and used the actual data from every epic level character in the game to set the baseline. All your thread proves is that you are above the baseline as far as xp gaining goes.

Did you read that thread?

Edit: Read it again. ~25% of your xp came from non-quest sources.

Yeah and the devs are sooo good at knowing how we the players actually build, play and what we generally want in this game. I am what I perceive as a general type player I don't farm the best gear the quickest nor the slowest, I like to zerg rather than flower sniff but I am not the fastest leveler nor am I the slowest.

I like to stay at cap for awhile but I also like to TR yet I am not one of the TR in 36 hrs type and the system as it it now is bloody bloody unbalanced and tuned towards those that will min/max and zerg farm quest on the sole basis of efficient valcom acquisition.

It totally ignores what I consider the norm which is like myself, amateur zergers/TR people. I think this is the biggest group in the game and they will lose most of our business if they leave things tuned like this.

[EllisDee37]

Yeah and the devs are sooo good at knowing how we the players actually build, play and what we generally want in this game. I am what I perceive as a general type player I don't farm the best gear the quickest nor the slowest, I like to zerg rather than flower sniff but I am not the fastest leveler nor am I the slowest.

I like to stay at cap for awhile but I also like to TR yet I am not one of the TR in 36 hrs type and the system as it it now is bloody bloody unbalanced and tuned towards those that will min/max and zerg farm quest on the sole basis of efficient valcom acquisition.

It totally ignores what I consider the norm which is like myself, amateur zergers/TR people. I think this is the biggest group in the game and they will lose most of our business if they leave things tuned like this.I'm probably one step down from you, and I too find this system as implemented untenable. I ponied up my $15 to get my five epic hearts (all five of my alts are currently 20+) and if this system stays as it's currently implemented I envision doing a grand total of 6, maybe 7 epic reincarnations ever. Once I'm done with those six hearts there will likely be a few more months of hanging around, but it won't be long before I get bored and look for a new game.

EDIT: In an effort to not just cry doom, what would fix it for me are the two simple fixes Teh_Troll wants to see implemented:

1) Heart cost lowered from 4200 to 2500 valor
2) Karma requirement lowered from 6 million to 2 million

Note that these desires aren't a "meet me halfway" kind of thing. If they lower hearts to 3500 valor and karma to 3 million xp I more than likely won't consider them realistically viable.

Right now I'd like to TR my paladin into a sireth-wielding double-strike 15/5 paladin/rogue build. Getting 9% double strike from three epic past lives seems like a no-brainer, and you'd think I could just use LD and be happy with it. But I have a LD build -- my fighter -- and want a fury build, which is my paladin. Playing for 18 million xp as a different flavor than I built him for isn't something I'm willing to do, pretty much ever.

[Qhualor]

I read it. All it is is one players experience. I also read the thread in which the data used to come up with the numbers was described. It discounted all forms of non-quest xp and used the actual data from every epic level character in the game to set the baseline. All your thread proves is that you are above the baseline as far as xp gaining goes.

Did you read that thread?

Edit: Read it again. ~25% of your xp came from non-quest sources.

deny it all you want, but the system is fail according to how the devs described it to us how on the "1 cycle". I see similar experiences described by others on the forums, read the complaints in guild/party chats in game all the time and using myself as an example. the only experiences I dismiss are the ones that use farming techniques such as Von 3 to determine how hard the grind is. discounting the average xp/min player, your typical player would normally have or want to have 10-20% xp pots going, ship xp buff, at least partial quest bonus (trap, breakables, slayers/explorers running to quests, etc), VOM and maybe an epic tome of some kind. there are other bonuses of course too, but its varied and depends on group also. none of the xp bonus is really required leveling to 28 and earning enough Comms to buy an EHoW falls short by a landslide.

[EllisDee37]

discounting the average xp/min player, your typical player would normally have or want to have 10-20% xp pots going, ship xp buff, at least partial quest bonus (trap, breakables, slayers/explorers running to quests, etc), VOM and maybe an epic tome of some kind. I'm a clear step below endgame players but equally a clear step above the typical player. I never have more than a 5% pot going, but I've had those 5% ones going 24/7 for well over a year now. I also do keep voice on all the time but no epic tomes except the one free lesser that came with Shadowfell pre-order.

I do get the full ransack bonus probably 90% of all quests I run, and conquest maybe 75% of all quests.

[SilkofDrasnia]

deny it all you want, but the system is fail according to how the devs described it to us how on the "1 cycle". I see similar experiences described by others on the forums, read the complaints in guild/party chats in game all the time and using myself as an example. the only experiences I dismiss are the ones that use farming techniques such as Von 3 to determine how hard the grind is. discounting the average xp/min player, your typical player would normally have or want to have 10-20% xp pots going, ship xp buff, at least partial quest bonus (trap, breakables, slayers/explorers running to quests, etc), VOM and maybe an epic tome of some kind. there are other bonuses of course too, but its varied and depends on group also. none of the xp bonus is really required leveling to 28 and earning enough Comms to buy an EHoW falls short by a landslide.

The problem is many people hit von3 for xp as it part of leveling like any other quest that has high xp. If Turbine was really serious about the "1 cycle" claims they needed to make valcoms drop amount kind of dependent on what XP a quest gives.

If they can't or wont do this then the "1 cycle" thing is just smoke blown up our toushies.

[Qhualor]

The problem is many people hit von3 for xp as it part of leveling like any other quest that has high xp. If Turbine was really serious about the "1 cycle" claims they needed to make valcoms drop amount kind of dependent on what XP a quest gives.

If they can't or wont do this then the "1 cycle" thing is just smoke blown up our toushies.

that's why I said I discount the xp/min player and tried to put together "ballpark numbers" for an average player leveling to 28. running Von 3 pre-Comms could be considered part of the average player scenario when it was just about leveling to cap and destiny grinding. now it makes no sense to grind epic xp if you want to earn enough Comms to buy an EHoW. now the grind has shifted not just for the xp/min player but for ALL types finding the best Comms quests.

[SilkofDrasnia]

that's why I said I discount the xp/min player and tried to put together "ballpark numbers" for an average player leveling to 28. running Von 3 pre-Comms could be considered part of the average player scenario when it was just about leveling to cap and destiny grinding. now it makes no sense to grind epic xp if you want to earn enough Comms to buy an EHoW. now the grind has shifted not just for the xp/min player but for ALL types finding the best Comms quests.

No you're wrong here, I don't believe the "majority of players" will shift to valcom grinding. I consider myself part of the majority and I won't switch my playstyle. Many people play von3 because it is fun and gives good xp, that isn't going to change in people minds, people want to get back up to max level to get their good gear etc.

I am not XP/MIN type of guy but like most I like XP, I like to run von1 or snitch etc when I don't have long to play, I like to get in a couple von3s, I like to run the 3 motu chains. What I play depends on my time and what I WANT to play along with my wife and guildies want to play.

What I wanted to do like most peeps I know and play with was 1 to 28 ETR then immediately HTR and do 1 to 28 again. Most people I know would do the same but we most of us wont bother to ETR when we hit 28 if it takes to long to get them, we will just HTR and do 1 to 28 and rinse repeat till we have enough valcoms to do a ETR.

Look at it this way I will keep playing the game the way I enjoy it, running quest I enjoy to run because ultimately I am here to have fun, if Turbine thinks they will force me to run quests I don't like or want to run just so I can "fairly" and within a "reasonable" amount of time be able to ETR I simply wont ETR and they can play alone in their sandbox.

It kind of comes back to the whole Epic debate back when there was only the "EPIC" difficulty. They added EN, EH and EE for a reason, they wanted content to be available for all types of players yet are "forgetting" their own theory when it comes to ETR

[Qhualor]

No you're wrong here, I don't believe the "majority of players" will shift to valcom grinding. I consider myself part of the majority and I won't switch my playstyle. Many people play von3 because it is fun and gives good xp, that isn't going to change in people minds, people want to get back up to max level to get their good gear etc.

I am not XP/MIN type of guy but like most I like XP, I like to run von1 or snitch etc when I don't have long to play, I like to get in a couple von3s, I like to run the 3 motu chains. What I play depends on my time and what I WANT to play along with my wife and guildies want to play.

What I wanted to do like most peeps I know and play with was 1 to 28 ETR then immediately HTR and do 1 to 28 again. Most people I know would do the same but we most of us wont bother to ETR when we hit 28 if it takes to long to get them, we will just HTR and do 1 to 28 and rinse repeat till we have enough valcoms to do a ETR.

Look at it this way I will keep playing the game the way I enjoy it, running quest I enjoy to run because ultimately I am here to have fun, if Turbine thinks they will force me to run quest I don't like or want to run just so I can "fairly" and within a "reasonable" amount of time be able to ETR I simply wont ETR and they can play alone in their sandbox.

It kind of comes back to the whole Epic debate back when there was only the "EPIC" difficulty. They added EN, EH and EE for a reason, they wanted content to be available for all types of players yet are "forgetting" their own theory when it comes to ETR

I didn't say "majority of players". I said "your average player" is going to have or want to have certain xp boosts while leveling. I listed, give or take, what an average player would be using. since you can hit level 28 without really any of those boosts or needing to farm Von 3 type of quests you still will fall short of the required Comms needed to buy an EHoW by at least 2k. I discount experiences that the grind for 4200 Comms when people talk about farming Von 3 quests. Von 3 may be fast and easy xp, but its not good for accumulating Comms at a fast rate. if you are going to grind for Comms, its better to run higher level, short EE quests daily.

im sure some players are doing the level 1-28 for past lives, but its too early to call that the norm or what the majority of players are doing. I know many people personally that are either focused on a heroic past life grind or a epic past life grind. not both at the same time. I don't know anyone that is actually doing both. I do know that everyone I know is in agreement that the Comm grind is too much.

[SilkofDrasnia]

I didn't say "majority of players". I said "your average player" is going to have or want to have certain xp boosts while leveling. I listed, give or take, what an average player would be using. since you can hit level 28 without really any of those boosts or needing to farm Von 3 type of quests you still will fall short of the required Comms needed to buy an EHoW by at least 2k. I discount experiences that the grind for 4200 Comms when people talk about farming Von 3 quests. Von 3 may be fast and easy xp, but its not good for accumulating Comms at a fast rate. if you are going to grind for Comms, its better to run higher level, short EE quests daily.

im sure some players are doing the level 1-28 for past lives, but its too early to call that the norm or what the majority of players are doing. I know many people personally that are either focused on a heroic past life grind or a epic past life grind. not both at the same time. I don't know anyone that is actually doing both. I do know that everyone I know is in agreement that the Comm grind is too much.

Lets try this again, the average player IS the majority. I don't know hardly anyone that uses xp pots except hardcore TR zergers, unless they get them for free from daily dice rolls and then they tend to store them for heroic levels.

Your missing the point, hitting von3 sometimes is not any worse than hitting wizking or some others and saying well you shouldn't count those that hit those quests, it is well not the way to look at things.


Therein lies the problem.

*snip*

...its better to run higher level, short EE quests daily.

*snip*


The plain fact is coms are too hard to grind because they give you pretty much the same amount on quests regardless of what xp the quest gives which is asinine.

I am in a founder guild and I can assure you the average player does not use xp pots, or otto boxes, they use VOM and shipbuff XP and that is it. The ones that are most likely to ETR are the same people that enjoy HTRing, those that don't like to TR are not likely to do either.

I agree with you, valcom grind is too high but I don't agree with your reasoning.

[Forzah]

The ones that are most likely to ETR are the same people that enjoy HTRing, those that don't like to TR are not likely to do either.

I disagree here. With ETRing you don't have to restart completely. You will be almost as strong as you were before the ETR, since you still have your base class and will quickly regain epic destinies. That is much more interesting for people who like to play capped toons. I don't think I'd ever HTR again, but I could see myself run a couple of ETRs.

[SilkofDrasnia]

I disagree here. With ETRing you don't have to restart completely. You will be almost as strong as you were before the ETR, since you still have your base class and will quickly regain epic destinies. That is much more interesting for people who like to play capped toons. I don't think I'd ever HTR again, but I could see myself run a couple of ETRs.


For some yes but why TR in the first place? More power etc... so my claim stands those that are likely ETR and HTR are the same people. Sure some might be tired of HTR and just want to ETR and some might even want to only keep HTRing, The big point is to keep the hamster wheel going.

Doing it how they are now is not likely to keep the hamster wheel going especially since many are not all the impressed with ETR benefits in the first place. Those of us that may want to ETR because we want to HTR anyways may just write it off if we are forced to stay too long at endgame as they tuned it for peeps running "short EE quests".

[Rykka]

People use XP buffs to get to cap faster so they can TR faster, not so they can sit at cap. If they can't TR faster using XP buffs, many people will say "why bother using them?" I would guess that a large percentage of people who TR don't need the "advantage" of being at level cap in order to grind their quests more easily. And the people who would like that advantage are probably newer to the TR scene and don't use all the XP buffs.

Really it's not a question of why not keep using XP buffs, but why pay to use them if they don't get you the intended result.

(Ninja'd by Dandonk :) )

I have a pile of XP pots from daily rolls that I don't use. I always skip the XP shrine and refuse to renew it. Levels just force you up the tree. This XP boost is encouraging me to cancel VIP. Frankly, I'd check an option box that gave 0XP on a Quest. But recalling and reentering sounds like good advice.

[Dandonk]

On my current life I ran every single quest on EH, excluding raids. I also repeated some of them, but on different days, so they gave me commendations again.

I took commendations for just about every single reward, except maybe 2-3 of them.

I ended up with roughly 1900 commendations.

4200 is just stupid and clearly chosen to make people buy hearts in the store.

Thank you for sharing another data point.


The facts shown in my thread refute your claim completely.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/431810-ATTN-Devs-Compiled-Data-Epic-XP-CoV

OP, I do appologize for linking my thread twice now. But, it's for the same cause! :)

No problem, it can't be linked often enough if people refuse to read what's posted.


I am sorry but EH and 500 coms in 3 hrs, SS or should I say a video for the complete uninterreupted 3 hrs or I call BS.

Not sure what, if anything, this has to do with me.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Not sure what, if anything, this has to do with me.

Oh sorry meant to quote the guy you had quoted!

[Dandonk]

Oh sorry meant to quote the guy you had quoted!

Oh :) No worries then :)

[Braegan]

I read it. All it is is one players experience. I also read the thread in which the data used to come up with the numbers was described. It discounted all forms of non-quest xp and used the actual data from every epic level character in the game to set the baseline. All your thread proves is that you are above the baseline as far as xp gaining goes.

Did you read that thread?

Edit: Read it again. ~25% of your xp came from non-quest sources.

Well I thought I was pretty clear exactly where the xp I gained was from.

The ~25% you mention, nearly all of it is from quest optional xp. I did no optional xp farming, just ran the quests and recorded the total xp given at the end. The S/E/R totals were posted as well, highest being 177, lowest being 1. All together that probably made up ~1% of the xp total. Daily Dice rolls, ok sure using free silver rolls for the 8 or 9 days it took me to do this is what about 5k? Saga turn ins were a nice bump but not huge, all of those turned in on Hard. The rest is all xp you would normally get by just running the quest as intended and gaining optional xp in the process.

[nibel]

The problem is many people hit von3 for xp as it part of leveling like any other quest that has high xp.

The reason is very simple. Turbine want us to run the Shadowfell content. Thus, they gave Shadowfell quests the highest return for CoV. The rationalization after this (higher level quests gives more CoV) is a reasonable excuse. The intent is still the same.

They don't want people running Eberron content after level 24. Their math is skewed towards people running Wheloon at level 25-26, and SH at level 27-28. Their first try was tying it to sagas (where all epic sagas, but two, requires SC content).

I don't have time to do the math, but just for the sake of numbers, has someone counted how much CoV you would get if once you hit 25, you run only Wheloon/SH instead of Eberron content until you cap?

[SilkofDrasnia]

The reason is very simple. Turbine want us to run the Shadowfell content. Thus, they gave Shadowfell quests the highest return for CoV. The rationalization after this (higher level quests gives more CoV) is a reasonable excuse. The intent is still the same.

They don't want people running Eberron content after level 24. Their math is skewed towards people running Wheloon at level 25-26, and SH at level 27-28. Their first try was tying it to sagas (where all epic sagas, but two, requires SC content).

I don't have time to do the math, but just for the sake of numbers, has someone counted how much CoV you would get if once you hit 25, you run only Wheloon/SH instead of Eberron content until you cap?

Oh yes I understand this they want to force us to run certain content to make $$$, I get that... what I am saying is it won't work and will come back to bite them in the arse if they keep this up.

Like I have been saying this whole 1 ETR heart in " 1 cycle" is smoke up our toushies. It is more along the lines of run the quests we tell you to run and we will deign to allow you to farm cov so you can ETR otherwise fork out $$$.

Guess what I already paid for all of the packs except for two I didn't like and I want to be able to run them without being penalized, add to this I have PAID to be able to run lvl 20 to 28 and EDs etc as well so strong arming me for more cash so I can effectively use this content again is going to make me dig in my heels and think FU Turbine.

[Teh_Troll]

I ran it twice during the run to 28. Twice. So sorry, but no.

He's immune to facts.

[Qhualor]

Lets try this again, the average player IS the majority. I don't know hardly anyone that uses xp pots except hardcore TR zergers, unless they get them for free from daily dice rolls and then they tend to store them for heroic levels.

Your missing the point, hitting von3 sometimes is not any worse than hitting wizking or some others and saying well you shouldn't count those that hit those quests, it is well not the way to look at things.


Therein lies the problem.



The plain fact is coms are too hard to grind because they give you pretty much the same amount on quests regardless of what xp the quest gives which is asinine.

I am in a founder guild and I can assure you the average player does not use xp pots, or otto boxes, they use VOM and shipbuff XP and that is it. The ones that are most likely to ETR are the same people that enjoy HTRing, those that don't like to TR are not likely to do either.

I agree with you, valcom grind is too high but I don't agree with your reasoning.

Yes, let's try this again. When players talk about the grind for Comms, I discount the ones that judge the grind that farm the high xp quests. Grinding high xp quests is not a good standard to go by when accumulating Comms. I have found your typical player to run a more variety of quests to flag for CITW, run EE for PDK favor, run certain chains for saga rewards and run certain Eveningstar chains for named rewards.

Normally I would see players using some sort of xp pots, epic tomes were included in expansion packages that players would use to level and help alleviate the destiny grind for fate points and past lives, VOM, ship xp buff and its not uncommon to get bonus xp from quests and making the run to quests. That is what I consider, and I would typically see players doing this, an average player and what should be considered when determing Comms required for an EHoW in 1 cycle. Its been said many times here and I know in game done it myself personally as well as talked to many other players that you will easily level to 28 without having earned half the required Comms.

[EllisDee37]

Normally I would see players using some sort of xp potsThere is simply no chance that the average player is using xp pots in any meaningful way.

[Qhualor]

There is simply no chance that the average player is using xp pots in any meaningful way.

Exactly. It makes no sense to right now. Leveling to 28 is by far easy compared to the Comms earned in that time. That's why I say it makes no sense to xp farm quests if you plan to earn a EHoW.

[Matuse]

The only time I use an XP pot is when I'm doing Litany. The way I quest, I just can't justify it for anything else. I can run Litany (with the boss optionals) enough times during the hour that an XP pot lasts to make it worthwhile. For almost all other quests in the game, I'm quite content to take 50-90 minutes to finish them. RL can call me away at any time for an unspecified amount of time (a week ago, my start to finish time in Sleeping Dust was 9 and a half hours, thanks to a sudden AFK). When there's every possibility that I could completely waste the potion, I simply don't use them at all.

[Lauf]

I find the devs silence on this issue disturbing, would have thought this is an important enough issue to warrant some sort of response.

[Ilindith]

I find the devs silence on this issue disturbing, would have thought this is an important enough issue to warrant some sort of response.

They all TRed into the "We just want your money" build.

[Dandonk]

The only time I use an XP pot is when I'm doing Litany. The way I quest, I just can't justify it for anything else. I can run Litany (with the boss optionals) enough times during the hour that an XP pot lasts to make it worthwhile. For almost all other quests in the game, I'm quite content to take 50-90 minutes to finish them. RL can call me away at any time for an unspecified amount of time (a week ago, my start to finish time in Sleeping Dust was 9 and a half hours, thanks to a sudden AFK). When there's every possibility that I could completely waste the potion, I simply don't use them at all.

I used pots less than half the time I ran to 28. But in order to make people look away from that, I've now started again and will completely refrain from using pots.

I'm not sure this is what Turbine would like, but hey.

In any case, gimme a week or two, and I'll be 28 again and have new results without pots and xp weekend.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Yes, let's try this again. When players talk about the grind for Comms, I discount the ones that judge the grind that farm the high xp quests. Grinding high xp quests is not a good standard to go by when accumulating Comms. I have found your typical player to run a more variety of quests to flag for CITW, run EE for PDK favor, run certain chains for saga rewards and run certain Eveningstar chains for named rewards.

Normally I would see players using some sort of xp pots, epic tomes were included in expansion packages that players would use to level and help alleviate the destiny grind for fate points and past lives, VOM, ship xp buff and its not uncommon to get bonus xp from quests and making the run to quests. That is what I consider, and I would typically see players doing this, an average player and what should be considered when determing Comms required for an EHoW in 1 cycle. Its been said many times here and I know in game done it myself personally as well as talked to many other players that you will easily level to 28 without having earned half the required Comms.

Again most peeps don't use XP pots just like most don't really care about citw, and you are avoiding the point which is devs claimed we could in our normal quest from 20 to 28 be able to acquire a E-heart which is simply not the case. Twist it about how you will we are having to actively in a convoluted manner farm coms and even then I am not convinced you will acquire enough coms for a in "1 cycle" run.

When making such statements the devs needs to see and know how we are playing and leveling or their statements becomes lies and smoke up our toushies, it is not very hard to understand.

You keep going on and on about high XP quest, I say that is not relevant, when making statements to a community you need to speak to the whole of the community not just some small % or subset of it.

I will repeat again the "average" player is not using xp pots etc. You mention some of the epic tomes included with shadowfail, I say so what, they can't give with one hand and then try and take away with the other or say well it's your own fault for using what we give you and have that make sense or expect us to be happy about it.

IF they are going to make a baseline for the average player to then tune valcom drop rates they need to take in the data on ALL the dang players not just those that don't run "high XP" quests, otherwise their "baseline" is in error.

It is pretty clear they are doing this in a manner that most peeps will not be willing to put up with in the hopes we say "F" it and give in and buy a 20 buck heart from the store.

I do not mind if it becomes quicker to earn valcoms if you run newer content like in shadowfail but it is dang ridiculous that you earn under 600 from 20 to 28 because you ran too much ebberon content. I used no pots only ship buffs and the VOM.

This isn't anecdotal my PM has under 600 coms and she stayed parked at 23 for close to one week capped earning no XP and I am parked at 27 right now. There is no way in hell I will be able to earn 2k com before I get fed up and take 28 and possibly HTR.




Exactly. It makes no sense to right now. Leveling to 28 is by far easy compared to the Comms earned in that time. That's why I say it makes no sense to xp farm quests if you plan to earn a EHoW.

You even are arguing my case for me here, they claimed we could earn a ETR heart in 1 normal cycle from 20 to 28 yet as you claim it is vastly vastly easier to lvl from 20 to 28 than it is to get a heart.

They never added a qualifier to their statement saying you would be able to earn a Heart "but only if you run the lowest xp quests on EE".

[deahamlet]

I forgot what thread and who and I'm too sleepy to look now, but someone ran a life that actually produced enough commendations but they basically run underlevel so to speak and loads of EE. So base quest level is 24, let's say, they ran it at 24... but EE 24 is NOT level 24, get what I'm saying? That way they ended up with enough comms because they basically ran the newer content more.

Another person did the maths and said if you are not using ANY XP boosts... not VIP, not tomes, not shrine, not voice, not XP pots... and you run each epic quest x3 (forgot if on EH or EE) you would get enough comms.

Well that's just lovely, says I...

1. I do have tomes on all my characters, I do have VIP, I do have a high level ship with a nice XP shrine (our poor guild leader is wasting moneyz on that it seems)... I guess all these things that I thought were supporting the game and adding to my fun are actually detracting from my fun as I'd have to grind harder because 20-28 will go faster for me, period.
2. I don't believe option 1 or 2 presented is how most people play or would play even if we say stop farming VON3 ad nauseam and whatnot. For one, expecting everyone and their momma to run EE to get enough comms is not realistic. For two, expecting people to run level 24 EE at level 24 is unrealistic for a big chunk of the population. And for three, since only first completion counts, you pretty much run what's at your level for that day and call it a day. No more 12 hour gaming sessions because you have a free Friday no spouse etc... You better have multiple characters and run them all.

Overall I think it stinks of Turbine trying to tell people HOW to play rather than anything else. I also think taking average player XP from 20-28 with what quests they run is a whole bunch of BS. How many people ran Shadowfail that much and that hard from 26-28 to account for all those comms? HAHA. And what player, do show me, plays at level EH or EE to level? Definitely not casuals, definitely not vets.

And on top of it they make me mad I gave them money for anything that increases XP incoming.

There ARE ways to get to 28 from 20 and get enough comms. Is it viable for most people? Doesn't sound to me as the two successful accounts do not strike me as average for anyone, vet or not.

[Qhualor]

Again most peeps don't use XP pots just like most don't really care about citw, and you are avoiding the point which is devs claimed we could in our normal quest from 20 to 28 be able to acquire a E-heart which is simply not the case. Twist it about how you will we are having to actively in a convoluted manner farm coms and even then I am not convinced you will acquire enough coms for a in "1 cycle" run.

When making such statements the devs needs to see and know how we are playing and leveling or their statements becomes lies and smoke up our toushies, it is not very hard to understand.

You keep going on and on about high XP quest, I say that is not relevant, when making statements to a community you need to speak to the whole of the community not just some small % or subset of it.

I will repeat again the "average" player is not using xp pots etc. You mention some of the epic tomes included with shadowfail, I say so what, they can't give with one hand and then try and take away with the other or say well it's your own fault for using what we give you and have that make sense or expect us to be happy about it.

IF they are going to make a baseline for the average player to then tune valcom drop rates they need to take in the data on ALL the dang players not just those that don't run "high XP" quests, otherwise their "baseline" is in error.

It is pretty clear they are doing this in a manner that most peeps will not be willing to put up with in the hopes we say "F" it and give in and buy a 20 buck heart from the store.

I do not mind if it becomes quicker to earn valcoms if you run newer content like in shadowfail but it is dang ridiculous that you earn under 600 from 20 to 28 because you ran too much ebberon content. I used no pots only ship buffs and the VOM.

This isn't anecdotal my PM has under 600 coms and she stayed parked at 23 for close to one week capped earning no XP and I am parked at 27 right now. There is no way in hell I will be able to earn 2k com before I get fed up and take 28 and possibly HTR.





You even are arguing my case for me here, they claimed we could earn a ETR heart in 1 normal cycle from 20 to 28 yet as you claim it is vastly vastly easier to lvl from 20 to 28 than it is to get a heart.

They never added a qualifier to their statement saying you would be able to earn a Heart "but only if you run the lowest xp quests on EE".

please stop with the "mosts" and "majority". I am not saying either of these things.

again, I am talking about pre-Comms and what the "average" player was using or would use. players would use xp pots and epic tomes to grind out destinies. maybe not in your circle of players, but in the wide circle of puggers I saw and was told this.

where am I avoiding the question about earning a EHoW in "1 cycle"(Vargouilles words)? they definitely did not implement a system the way they said it was going to work. you cant earn enough Comms from 20-28 just running on EH and leveling to 28. I know this for a fact and I know this from the many forum posters on this issue as well as from numerous players in game. im on your side on this issue, not against.

if you are running Von 3 or any other high xp quests more than a few times, you are xp farming. why xp farm if you are interested in trying to earn a EHoW in game? those quests aren't efficient with Comms and is a bad way to show what the "average" player is doing. if you are xp farming than chances are you don't care enough about earning Comms and you will either just buy the heart or not ER until whenever down the road, if at all.

if you are running Von 3 or any other high xp quests more than a few times for Comms, than you are doing it wrong. its been posted many times by some people that show which quests give out a better Comm return. some can be done quickly, some not so quick.

the better and more efficient way to kill 2 birds with 1 stone is to run sagas. I know quite a few players that run EE GH saga daily for Comms and saga xp to use for off destinies.

the average player was using some form of xp pot, epic tomes, VOM, etc, etc. I said this numerous times already. not every player used xp pots and not every player has an epic tome. that is why I said "ballpark". I know its dangerous on the forums to state such "facts", but when I saw this in game anywhere from puggers to guildies to my own personal experience, I think I can safely say that those "give or take numbers" is about average. I know some players are running Von 3 daily, but I know many others actually want to run sagas, get PDK favor, flag for raids, run certain quests for loot and run Eveningstar quest chains for rewards. that is what should be figured into what an average player does in epics and not that the "majority" of players are farming Von 3.

[Vyder]

they are pushing the players to get more free TP, and be exposed to less new content. From where I'm sitting, that's called shooting yourself in the foot.



I think at this point they have no more feet to shoot :)

[Teh_Ghoul]

I think at this point they have no more feet to shoot :)

They've been moving up the legs for a while. At this point they're dangerously close to the groin.

[SilkofDrasnia]

please stop with the "mosts" and "majority". I am not saying either of these things.

again, I am talking about pre-Comms and what the "average" player was using or would use. players would use xp pots and epic tomes to grind out destinies. maybe not in your circle of players, but in the wide circle of puggers I saw and was told this.

where am I avoiding the question about earning a EHoW in "1 cycle"(Vargouilles words)? they definitely did not implement a system the way they said it was going to work. you cant earn enough Comms from 20-28 just running on EH and leveling to 28. I know this for a fact and I know this from the many forum posters on this issue as well as from numerous players in game. im on your side on this issue, not against.

if you are running Von 3 or any other high xp quests more than a few times, you are xp farming. why xp farm if you are interested in trying to earn a EHoW in game? those quests aren't efficient with Comms and is a bad way to show what the "average" player is doing. if you are xp farming than chances are you don't care enough about earning Comms and you will either just buy the heart or not ER until whenever down the road, if at all.

if you are running Von 3 or any other high xp quests more than a few times for Comms, than you are doing it wrong. its been posted many times by some people that show which quests give out a better Comm return. some can be done quickly, some not so quick.

the better and more efficient way to kill 2 birds with 1 stone is to run sagas. I know quite a few players that run EE GH saga daily for Comms and saga xp to use for off destinies.

the average player was using some form of xp pot, epic tomes, VOM, etc, etc. I said this numerous times already. not every player used xp pots and not every player has an epic tome. that is why I said "ballpark". I know its dangerous on the forums to state such "facts", but when I saw this in game anywhere from puggers to guildies to my own personal experience, I think I can safely say that those "give or take numbers" is about average. I know some players are running Von 3 daily, but I know many others actually want to run sagas, get PDK favor, flag for raids, run certain quests for loot and run Eveningstar quest chains for rewards. that is what should be figured into what an average player does in epics and not that the "majority" of players are farming Von 3.

Are you daft? Read your dang posts you are coming off as a fanboy and implying the problem is high XP quests when the problem is Turbine being greedy, the problem isn't high XP quests, I am not frackkiing arguing that high XP questing is the best way to farm coms.

I am arguing that you need to stop defending Turbine by trying to imply high XP quest are the main problem, it's frackking obvious what the problem is, pull your head out and smell it for what it is.

As for my use of the majority, you stop using "average" because your average is so far off base it is not even funny especially when you're using average to mean majority. In case it's too hard to comprehend, the "average" player is the majority and as such average and majority means the same dang thing in this case.

Your whole theory is BS because no one is XP farming from 20 to 28 mate you level just too dang fast even if you don't want to.

I am done talking to you, you stubborn boy, we both agree com farming is too long/hard but I am putting the blame where it belongs where as you are implying its the players fault for using and playing with what turbine gave us which is quite frankly so asinine it's astounding.

You keep babbling about the "best" method to "farm" coms, guess what? They claimed we would get enough via normal game play from 20 to 28 and that mate is not what you keep going on about or even what this whole thread is about.

[Singular]

Thank you for sharing another data point.



No problem, it can't be linked often enough if people refuse to read what's posted.



Not sure what, if anything, this has to do with me.

OP, I couldn't agree more with your position. Every single example of someone actually running from 20-28 demonstrates that 4200 CoV is too high a requirement. The highest anyone has gotten actually doing that is around 2700 - even running each quest on EE didn't break 3000. That contrasts sharply with the "data" generated by Turbine and others that show a run from 20-28 is sufficient.

I'm a research scientist by trade. It's quite clear that the model used by Turbine isn't accurate with regards to the reality demonstrated by players. When your model doesn't describe the phenomena it purports to, it's time to change the model. No amount of repeating 'this is what the data tells us' is going to change the reality that 4200 CoVs cannot be gained in one cycle from 20-28.

Turbine quite clearly needs to 1) change their model describing leveling from 20-28, 2) explain that their model reflects a long term goal of 20-30 instead (lately they seem to have been releasing systems designed for the future, failing to realize how adversely that affects the present), or 3) listen to the player base and lower the CoV requirements.

I like being VIP and paying for it. My VIP is up in Jan and I am strongly considering dropping it if the above issue isn't addressed - after all, what's the point in having an XP bonus if the end result is a mismatch between capping and etring?

(mind you, my consideration of dropping VIP includes having to pay for expansions that do not include raids - why stay VIP if I have to pay for content anyways? Yet that's another discussion...)

[SilkofDrasnia]

OP, I couldn't agree more with your position. Every single example of someone actually running from 20-28 demonstrates that 4200 CoV is too high a requirement. The highest anyone has gotten actually doing that is around 2700 - even running each quest on EE didn't break 3000. That contrasts sharply with the "data" generated by Turbine and others that show a run from 20-28 is sufficient.

I'm a research scientist by trade. It's quite clear that the model used by Turbine isn't accurate with regards to the reality demonstrated by players. When your model doesn't describe the phenomena it purports to, it's time to change the model. No amount of repeating 'this is what the data tells us' is going to change the reality that 4200 CoVs cannot be gained in one cycle from 20-28.

Turbine quite clearly needs to 1) change their model describing leveling from 20-28, 2) explain that their model reflects a long term goal of 20-30 instead (lately they seem to have been releasing systems designed for the future, failing to realize how adversely that affects the present), or 3) listen to the player base and lower the CoV requirements.

I like being VIP and paying for it. My VIP is up in Jan and I am strongly considering dropping it if the above issue isn't addressed - after all, what's the point in having an XP bonus if the end result is a mismatch between capping and etring?

(mind you, my consideration of dropping VIP includes having to pay for expansions that do not include raids - why stay VIP if I have to pay for content anyways? Yet that's another discussion...)

Nicely said! It's great to see a post from someone that actually gets the issue.

[Jasparion]

I find the devs silence on this issue disturbing, would have thought this is an important enough issue to warrant some sort of response.

Like a mention in the holiday update letter from a senior producer?

:)


Again most peeps don't use XP pots just like most don't really care about citw, and you are avoiding the point which is devs claimed we could in our normal quest from 20 to 28 be able to acquire a E-heart which is simply not the case. Twist it about how you will we are having to actively in a convoluted manner farm coms and even then I am not convinced you will acquire enough coms for a in "1 cycle" run.

Well, I think they said that you can rull all the quests on EH and get your free E Heart. But this has been shown to be not true a number of times now. And we hear nothing from Turbine.

Which once again reinforces the view that they clearly want us earning an E Heart every second life, and purchasing the other with TP.

[Qhualor]

Are you daft? Read your dang posts you are coming off as a fanboy and implying the problem is high XP quests when the problem is Turbine being greedy, the problem isn't high XP quests, I am not frackkiing arguing that high XP questing is the best way to farm coms.

I am arguing that you need to stop defending Turbine by trying to imply high XP quest are the main problem, it's frackking obvious what the problem is, pull your head out and smell it for what it is.

As for my use of the majority, you stop using "average" because your average is so far off base it is not even funny especially when you're using average to mean majority. In case it's too hard to comprehend, the "average" player is the majority and as such average and majority means the same dang thing in this case.

Your whole theory is BS because no one is XP farming from 20 to 28 mate you level just too dang fast even if you don't want to.

I am done talking to you, you stubborn boy, we both agree com farming is too long/hard but I am putting the blame where it belongs where as you are implying its the players fault for using and playing with what turbine gave us which is quite frankly so asinine it's astounding.

You keep babbling about the "best" method to "farm" coms, guess what? They claimed we would get enough via normal game play from 20 to 28 and that mate is not what you keep going on about or even what this whole thread is about.

yes, im daft. learn to read my posts or don't bother commenting. you clearly are trying to be argumentative when I am AGREEING with the problem of the Comm grind and that it is NOT what we were told. im not going into a symantic debate with you over average, majority or most. I don't play that game. as far as me coming across as being a fanboi!? read my posting history if you know how to not jumble what I say in those posts. weren't we both standing on the bridge on Wayfinder? im done with this thread.

[SilkofDrasnia]

yes, im daft. learn to read my posts or don't bother commenting. you clearly are trying to be argumentative when I am AGREEING with the problem of the Comm grind and that it is NOT what we were told. im not going into a symantic debate with you over average, majority or most. I don't play that game. as far as me coming across as being a fanboi!? read my posting history if you know how to not jumble what I say in those posts. weren't we both standing on the bridge on Wayfinder? im done with this thread.

You don't have a semantics issue? Your the one going one about me using the word majority and I clearly said like you I find the grind to high but you keep going on blablabla about high XP quest as if we were talking about efficient com farming when it pretty clear that really isnt the issue but that the 4200 is too high a number and they chose that number to strong arm peeps into buying hearts from the store.

I don't give a rats arse about your posting history doesn't mean squat or mean you can't have your head high high somewhere at times.

[Portalcat]

I find the devs silence on this issue disturbing, would have thought this is an important enough issue to warrant some sort of response.

It will get a response when they've made a decision as to what they will do, and no sooner. Put yourself in Turbine's shoes for a second and you can see why this has to be that way.

Seriously, you can quell quite a bit of anti-Turbine rage by postulating that they're rational actors who care about their game and who act mostly in good faith, and then trying to work backwards to figure out why a rational actor would do X. This isn't fanboi-ism; this is called "empathy" and it works most of the time in the rest of the world too.

[Dandonk]

Well, I think they said that you can rull all the quests on EH and get your free E Heart. But this has been shown to be not true a number of times now. And we hear nothing from Turbine.

Which once again reinforces the view that they clearly want us earning an E Heart every second life, and purchasing the other with TP.

Just to clear this up, they did not say we could run all Epic quests once on Hard and get the hearts. It was said that we could run EH to cap and get "close" to the vcomms needed.

Of course, my own experience and that of most others does not agree with that statement.

[Gremmlynn]

I mainly heroic tr, running all content on elite for TP. As in, that's most of what I do in the game, though I do keep a stable of epic characters for guild raids which we run twice weekly.

I'm happy to buy points each double point bonus sale for general expenses. Those include appearance kits, augments and tomes (both stat and xp.) I've owned all non-expansion adventure packs for almost a year now, so despite having nothing to spend TP on I still buy TP. Even though I get at least 750 TP every heroic TR. (All my lives end with at least 3000 favor.)

That makes me skeptical of your premise. I'm happy to keep buying TP (when on sale) just to have for whatever comes my way each life. I would not, however, buy hearts in the store, and if that's the only realistic way to earn them outside of extreme grind then I will not buy the hearts, not TR, and not buy points for whatever may come up next life because there won't be a next life.


*I also own both expansions, but those were both pre-ordered. I don't consider expansions as a TP purchase.A question. Why are you so dead set against spending TP's on hearts that actually let you get on with playing the game, but have no problem buying non play effecting appearance kits or arguably p2w augments and tomes?

[Gremmlynn]

I am in a founder guild and I can assure you the average player does not use xp pots, or otto boxes, they use VOM and shipbuff XP and that is it. The ones that are most likely to ETR are the same people that enjoy HTRing, those that don't like to TR are not likely to do either.

I agree with you, valcom grind is too high but I don't agree with your reasoning.This is pretty much my experiance too. It's pretty easy to spot someone who is running a pot as they are always trying to beat the clock.

Though I will disagree with you on who will be epic TRing. Personally I am one of those who doesn't much care to TR and when I do it's either because I don't like the character and am basically rerolling or I'm doing pretty much the same build over again. In either case it's rare and generally unplanned because I don't like to give up all that I have worked for for such small gain.

With epic TR, I retain my ED's, so all I'll be giving up is a few hp's, saves, BAB and access to gear, mostly for just a short time due to the xp scaling of epic levels. Level 25 comes quickly and 26 isn't bad either so most of the time it's just a loss of 2 or 3 levels. Maybe the reason why I don't see 4200 as such a bad number is that getting those comms actually gives me a reason to play at full power for a while. Something the game is rather lacking in.

[Gremmlynn]

For some yes but why TR in the first place? More power etc... so my claim stands those that are likely ETR and HTR are the same people. Sure some might be tired of HTR and just want to ETR and some might even want to only keep HTRing, The big point is to keep the hamster wheel going.

Doing it how they are now is not likely to keep the hamster wheel going especially since many are not all the impressed with ETR benefits in the first place. Those of us that may want to ETR because we want to HTR anyways may just write it off if we are forced to stay too long at endgame as they tuned it for peeps running "short EE quests".Actually I think they tuned it for those who go to the store if the comms aren't there when their character is. For less than the price of a night at the bar, which is what I would have been doing if not playing an MMO in my younger days, they can keep on keeping on.

[deahamlet]

A question. Why are you so dead set against spending TP's on hearts that actually let you get on with playing the game, but have no problem buying non play effecting appearance kits or arguably p2w augments and tomes?

I don't know about him, but I don't feel squeezed for money from a sleazy dealer when it comes to tomes or augments or kits.

Now ETR seems to be their endgame. I don't see 2-3 raids (one of which being eVON and the other a pain in the arse nanny mission fighting belly buttons) as being an endgame. I don't see the latest content even on EE as endgame... it just doesn't have the diversity of what we used to call endgame before MOTU. We used to have endgame as TR, epics and raids. Now we just really have TR. If that is their endgame but it gives me the hibby jeebees creepy vibes I'm going to feel bitter about participating and even more grumpy about the obvious push for me to pay.

This is a HOBBY. Just like I don't like obvious tactics in marketing and in stores, I most certainly do not like to feel pushed into a corner to spend in a hobby. And as I said a few times by now, I had no problem spending for HTR heart even though I had the tokens because I wanted to support the game. I had options then and I chose to give them money. They want to offer me a dreary grindy ride in order to manipulate me into paying, I'm going to resist.

[Gremmlynn]

OP, I couldn't agree more with your position. Every single example of someone actually running from 20-28 demonstrates that 4200 CoV is too high a requirement. The highest anyone has gotten actually doing that is around 2700 - even running each quest on EE didn't break 3000. That contrasts sharply with the "data" generated by Turbine and others that show a run from 20-28 is sufficient.

I'm a research scientist by trade. It's quite clear that the model used by Turbine isn't accurate with regards to the reality demonstrated by players. When your model doesn't describe the phenomena it purports to, it's time to change the model. No amount of repeating 'this is what the data tells us' is going to change the reality that 4200 CoVs cannot be gained in one cycle from 20-28.

Turbine quite clearly needs to 1) change their model describing leveling from 20-28, 2) explain that their model reflects a long term goal of 20-30 instead (lately they seem to have been releasing systems designed for the future, failing to realize how adversely that affects the present), or 3) listen to the player base and lower the CoV requirements.

I like being VIP and paying for it. My VIP is up in Jan and I am strongly considering dropping it if the above issue isn't addressed - after all, what's the point in having an XP bonus if the end result is a mismatch between capping and etring?

(mind you, my consideration of dropping VIP includes having to pay for expansions that do not include raids - why stay VIP if I have to pay for content anyways? Yet that's another discussion...)Actually, with enough re-entries, it's likely that 4200 could be gained from 20-21, which as a scientist, you should have been able to figure out.

Also, their model supports what they want it to support. Most likely an attempt to get people to give up and just buy their heart. I'm sure they looked long and hard for the right data to supports their model. Not that the data really means anything in the real world.

Personally, the hard data I go by is that every epic quest completed on EH 3 times will get me enough comms for a heart. What level that takes me to, or how long I spend at cap doing that is pretty much irrelevant to what it takes to get the comms.

[Gremmlynn]

Just to clear this up, they did not say we could run all Epic quests once on Hard and get the hearts. It was said that we could run EH to cap and get "close" to the vcomms needed.

Of course, my own experience and that of most others does not agree with that statement.Obviously, you don't get near the number of re-entry penalties as their model used. They didn't lie, the just used a truth that supported their goals.

Gratz, you are way above what their model considers average and should be happy that they offer hearts in the store to let you take advantage of that superiority.

After the initial proposal of all types of hearts being earned from low comm amount saga rewards it seems pretty obvious where they stand on the issue.

[Gremmlynn]

I don't know about him, but I don't feel squeezed for money from a sleazy dealer when it comes to tomes or augments or kits.

Now ETR seems to be their endgame. I don't see 2-3 raids (one of which being eVON and the other a pain in the arse nanny mission fighting belly buttons) as being an endgame. I don't see the latest content even on EE as endgame... it just doesn't have the diversity of what we used to call endgame before MOTU. We used to have endgame as TR, epics and raids. Now we just really have TR. If that is their endgame but it gives me the hibby jeebees creepy vibes I'm going to feel bitter about participating and even more grumpy about the obvious push for me to pay.

This is a HOBBY. Just like I don't like obvious tactics in marketing and in stores, I most certainly do not like to feel pushed into a corner to spend in a hobby. And as I said a few times by now, I had no problem spending for HTR heart even though I had the tokens because I wanted to support the game. I had options then and I chose to give them money. They want to offer me a dreary grindy ride in order to manipulate me into paying, I'm going to resist.The thing is, it's not a hobby to them and I'm sure very few business people base their plan on hoping customers throw some money their way to support them. That's more something hobbyist game designers would do.

The hard facts are, if WB thinks DDOs budget could be better invested elsewhere, it will be invested elsewhere. Want to ride the TR train, expect to buy the ticket or jump through the hoops they put up in order to maintain their "everything can be had for free" slogan, without going bankrupt from everyone getting everything for free everything for free.

[Dandonk]

Obviously, you don't get near the number of re-entry penalties as their model used. They didn't lie, the just used a truth that supported their goals.

Gratz, you are way above what their model considers average and should be happy that they offer hearts in the store to let you take advantage of that superiority.

After the initial proposal of all types of hearts being earned from low comm amount saga rewards it seems pretty obvious where they stand on the issue.

If I ran with 50% pots all the time, and only farmed high xp quests, or ran all explorer areas to 1500 slayers, I could grant you that. But I didn't. I ran lots of different quests, rarely took saga xp rewards, and still only ended up with 36% of the comms needed. I'll grant you that with bonus weekend and VIP bonus and stuff, I'll be "above average" (whatever that means) in xp gained per quest... but I'm not getting three times what "average" is. Sorry, I don't believe that.

But I agree - they took a lesson from 1984 and made the truth whatever they wanted it to be. 2 + 2 is 3, 4 and 5 all at the same time.

[EllisDee37]

A question. Why are you so dead set against spending TP's on hearts that actually let you get on with playing the game, but have no problem buying non play effecting appearance kits or arguably p2w augments and tomes?I view hearts the same way I view Sigils of Leveling.

Also, those other things are permanent, as in you buy them once ever per character. Except augments, which are super cheap and kinda fun. Spending TP on character customization = good. Spending TP just to continue playing = bad.

[Gremmlynn]

I view hearts the same way I view Sigils of Leveling.

Also, those other things are permanent, as in you buy them once ever per character. Except augments, which are super cheap and kinda fun. Spending TP on character customization = good. Spending TP just to continue playing = bad.Having farmed those level sigils, I disagree. I know exactly what I need to run to get the comms, to me the uncertainty was what bothered me with the sigils. Also, the fact that I get to actually have a reason to play that character at cap makes it better imo. If epic PLF's were simply handed out every time I got 4200 comms or 6.6 million xp or whatever, rather than going back to 20, it would even be better. Harder to monetize though.

Also, once each per character is the problem Turbine is running into I think. Not that wiping tomes on TR did anything but keep most from using them much at all. But the whole issue of basically having the game paid off and just sitting back and building "equity" with favor seems to point out a flaw in their long term business plan it seems they are trying to correct. Or at least with the current population and lack of new blood. Not enough to make development very profitable, especially with most being around long enough to be playing with the houses money.

I wont say 4200 is a good number, frankly I'm pretty ambivalent to any number as it's more something to do than something to get to me. But I do see why they might be doing things the way they are and can't fault them for it if I'm close to right. Doing what is needed to possibly stay profitable beats just going with the flow until Turbine/WB cuts their loses with the game.

[deahamlet]

The thing is, it's not a hobby to them and I'm sure very few business people base their plan on hoping customers throw some money their way to support them. That's more something hobbyist game designers would do.

The hard facts are, if WB thinks DDOs budget could be better invested elsewhere, it will be invested elsewhere. Want to ride the TR train, expect to buy the ticket or jump through the hoops they put up in order to maintain their "everything can be had for free" slogan, without going bankrupt from everyone getting everything for free everything for free.

I don't care what it is to them. No customer ever needs care. They either like and pay or the go elsewhere. The end.


I used to set aside 100 dollars for gaming spending each month because yes I make that much money and used to buy 1-2 games each month which used to be 120-130 bucks if not collector's edition and such. Because DDO became a big chunk of my monthly gameplay, I gave THEM the money. VIP and TP packages. A lot of it went on fluff and extra characters and such. Because I didn't feel manipulated, because I didn't feel they designed any system to force my hand, I freely gave.

You know where that 100 dollars a month is going to since two months after MOTU? Not DDO or Turbine, that I can tell you. It went to GW2 and Neverwinter and Tera and finally PSO2. Yes, I'd rather take the horrible price for japanese points and enjoy a game with home-made mods to translate it than give money to DDO because they done messed up.

Everyone wants to say that you can't go by what a customer says they would spend money on. But facts are facts. I USED TO give DDO 100+ a month, now I don't. I USED TO buy hearts of wood even though I didn't need to cause I was swimming in tokens. And yet I did. I am NOT buying an epic heart of wood as things stand now.
The past - spending money; the present - not spending that money. Maybe they should figure out how to be more subtle and sneaky. If I step into a store and the sales clerk is pushy and sleazy, I will never come again. I will still buy what I need and spend my money, but elsewhere.

Their design works for you, that's great for you. It does not work for me. For me this game is not food, and even for food and shelter I have options, I don't have to buy from a certain company! This is worse... this is a hobby to me and there are mucho options out there.

I still hope this game will recover. In February I renewed my yearly VIP with a bit of hope and am waiting for that hope to pan out. So far, I'm uncertain that VIP will be renewed. That 100 a month they haven't been getting from me and they won't the way they are going.

[Gremmlynn]

I don't care what it is to them. No customer ever needs care. They either like and pay or the go elsewhere. The end.


I used to set aside 100 dollars for gaming spending each month because yes I make that much money and used to buy 1-2 games each month which used to be 120-130 bucks if not collector's edition and such. Because DDO became a big chunk of my monthly gameplay, I gave THEM the money. VIP and TP packages. A lot of it went on fluff and extra characters and such. Because I didn't feel manipulated, because I didn't feel they designed any system to force my hand, I freely gave.

You know where that 100 dollars a month is going to since two months after MOTU? Not DDO or Turbine, that I can tell you. It went to GW2 and Neverwinter and Tera and finally PSO2. Yes, I'd rather take the horrible price for japanese points and enjoy a game with home-made mods to translate it than give money to DDO because they done messed up.

Everyone wants to say that you can't go by what a customer says they would spend money on. But facts are facts. I USED TO give DDO 100+ a month, now I don't. I USED TO buy hearts of wood even though I didn't need to cause I was swimming in tokens. And yet I did. I am NOT buying an epic heart of wood as things stand now.
The past - spending money; the present - not spending that money. Maybe they should figure out how to be more subtle and sneaky. If I step into a store and the sales clerk is pushy and sleazy, I will never come again. I will still buy what I need and spend my money, but elsewhere.

Their design works for you, that's great for you. It does not work for me. For me this game is not food, and even for food and shelter I have options, I don't have to buy from a certain company! This is worse... this is a hobby to me and there are mucho options out there.

I still hope this game will recover. In February I renewed my yearly VIP with a bit of hope and am waiting for that hope to pan out. So far, I'm uncertain that VIP will be renewed. That 100 a month they haven't been getting from me and they won't the way they are going.Yes, I can see how you find Turbine as pushy and sleazy by actually offering a way, however grindy, to eTR for free. The nerve of them to not make it easy to avoid paying them for the service they provide...

[deahamlet]

Yes, I can see how you find Turbine as pushy and sleazy by actually offering a way, however grindy, to eTR for free. The nerve of them to not make it easy to avoid paying them for the service they provide...

Hmm let's see... I bought the content, I pay monthly fees to them... and yet they want me to pay them to benefit from re-running the content... and hmmm let's see... pay them so they won't make an actual end-game but pretend rerunning 1-28 is the actual end-game?

Hmmm no thanx.

I am not trying to avoid paying for anything. I am not willing to pay to circumvent an annoyance they introduced in order to make me pay. ETR is a service? Lords all mighty, that's a scam if there ever was one. It's not content, it's fluffy benefits that do not help or are needed cause there's no endgame to push yourself towards... the price point for an epic heart is hilarity itself and the fact that they feel I have to pay them for that service, LOLZ.

Other MMOs you pay your monthly fee, you pay for the content... anything else they try to entice you by offering fluff that you may want. I don't get this love affair with games that introduce annoyances to force you to pay or grind boringfest until your eyes pop out of your skull. That is a scam model. I pay monthly fees. I paid for the expansions. I paid for character slots, character updates (bank, inventory etc). THOSE are services. ETR heart is not a service. It's a scam. A scam that makes one sorry they pay for VIP, ever paid for epic tomes, paid for xp pots, paid for guild shrine, etc.

But hey, you think it's a great service and it's fine to make the process of getting one an annoyance so we all pay. So it must be fine *rolls eyes*.

PS: There is an Android game my friends played for a while. I think it was called Marvel or something. It became so hardcore obvious that it was about making as much money as possible and not about intelligent gameplay that they stopped playing. While in the first couple of months when it wasn't such an obvious scam, they paid and bought things, usually the 50 or so they set aside for a game. They had fun. When it became more and more that you couldn't play or compete without dolling out more and more money, eventually they quit. Their friends also quit one by one their whole big guild was empty. Cause nobody likes a game that makes it obvious that it's just trying to get you to spend instead of giving you fun that you will want to spend money on. I guess you wouldn't be able to see the difference.

[Dandonk]

Yes, I can see how you find Turbine as pushy and sleazy by actually offering a way, however grindy, to eTR for free. The nerve of them to not make it easy to avoid paying them for the service they provide...

I want them to keep their word. I did not force them to provide a fairly easy way to grind the hearts, but they said they would. I'm holding them to their word, that's all.

[Dandonk]

Well, they're reading these threads: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/431810-ATTN-Devs-Compiled-Data-Epic-XP-CoV#post5188512

That was the good news. The bad is that they don't think the number is way off. So the original goal of people getting "close" to the comms needed by running EH to 28 must be bait-and-switch, or someone is having trouble with their math.

[Teh_Ghoul]

Well, they're reading these threads: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/431810-ATTN-Devs-Compiled-Data-Epic-XP-CoV#post5188512

That was the good news. The bad is that they don't think the number is way off. So the original goal of people getting "close" to the comms needed by running EH to 28 must be bait-and-switch, or someone is having trouble with their math.

Math doesn't solve anything.

[Dandonk]

Math doesn't solve anything.

+1 for that reminder.

I hope... against hope perhaps, that Turbine isn't using that kind of math when designing the game.

On the other hand, it would explain a few things.

[Singular]

Actually, with enough re-entries, it's likely that 4200 could be gained from 20-21, which as a scientist, you should have been able to figure out.

Re-entries don't pay CoVs. You get them the first time you play on a difficulty setting, if I'm not mistaken. If you were waiting for the quests to reset, then run them again, you're still mounting up experience. There's not a chance you will get 4200 CoVs between level 20-21 - that only requires 300 000 xp. You'll likely get that in 2 hours or less. Anyone who has played epic levels would know this.


Also, their model supports what they want it to support.

No, it doesn't.


Most likely an attempt to get people to give up and just buy their heart.

Then their model doesn't support their stated claims and I am not incorrect.


I'm sure they looked long and hard for the right data to supports their model.

I don't think you were paying attention to what they wrote and are inferring that when they say "we designed the number so that if you run every quest on EH to cap, you'd have enough hearts" what they really mean is "we want to frustrate you so that you purchase the hearts instead of play the game for them."


Not that the data really means anything in the real world.

Yes. That's what I wrote. Perhaps you didn't understand that before attacking me through my profession?


Personally, the hard data I go by is that every epic quest completed on EH 3 times will get me enough comms for a heart. What level that takes me to, or how long I spend at cap doing that is pretty much irrelevant to what it takes to get the comms.

That's nice for you then. As you can see here, were you to read the comments, other posters do not share your position.

[Gremmlynn]

Hmm let's see... I bought the content, I pay monthly fees to them... and yet they want me to pay them to benefit from re-running the content... and hmmm let's see... pay them so they won't make an actual end-game but pretend rerunning 1-28 is the actual end-game?

Hmmm no thanx.Which is cool as it is your choice to pay for what they offer. Personally, I own all the playable content with a few account upgrades thrown in, which means I don't have to pay them a monthly fee and I earn TP's faster than they can turn out new content for me to spend it on, DDO nirvana. I have a feeling I'm closer to the normal consumer than you. You seem to be of the mindset that if they do things in a manner that please you, you will deign to throw some money their way as a gratuity. Me, and IMO most others, we're looking for the best deal we can get and if they offer to good a deal they are going to go out of business.


I am not trying to avoid paying for anything. I am not willing to pay to circumvent an annoyance they introduced in order to make me pay. ETR is a service? Lords all mighty, that's a scam if there ever was one. It's not content, it's fluffy benefits that do not help or are needed cause there's no endgame to push yourself towards... the price point for an epic heart is hilarity itself and the fact that they feel I have to pay them for that service, LOLZ.In that case, you shouldn't have a problem just ignoring they exist, the same way I do with appearance kits and cosmetic pets, both of which I find fluffy. Personally, I see eTR as little more than a minimally game effecting way to add something to give us a reason to play, so the grind involved matters little as farming comms for my 3rd epl is much the same experience as grinding xp for my 5th. Where I'm at on that hamster wheel is little more than semantics.


Other MMOs you pay your monthly fee, you pay for the content... anything else they try to entice you by offering fluff that you may want. I don't get this love affair with games that introduce annoyances to force you to pay or grind boringfest until your eyes pop out of your skull. That is a scam model. I pay monthly fees. I paid for the expansions. I paid for character slots, character updates (bank, inventory etc). THOSE are services. ETR heart is not a service. It's a scam. A scam that makes one sorry they pay for VIP, ever paid for epic tomes, paid for xp pots, paid for guild shrine, etc.That monthly fee scheme didn't seem to be working out for them so they went to something different. Here what that monthly fee pays for is mostly elite opening, 10% public area move speed, the ability to use all non-expansion or favor owned content, a 10% boost in xp and whatever other minor perks it has. You choose to pay for that, I don't and to each their own.


But hey, you think it's a great service and it's fine to make the process of getting one an annoyance so we all pay. So it must be fine *rolls eyes*.It's simply how they set up f2p. Personally, if I were in their shoes, I'd probably cut subscribers a deal on hearts, but they probably think the 500 TPs a monthly subscription includes is sufficient. Though with the recent push towards VIP, it wouldn't surprise me to see something in this area added.


PS: There is an Android game my friends played for a while. I think it was called Marvel or something. It became so hardcore obvious that it was about making as much money as possible and not about intelligent gameplay that they stopped playing. While in the first couple of months when it wasn't such an obvious scam, they paid and bought things, usually the 50 or so they set aside for a game. They had fun. When it became more and more that you couldn't play or compete without dolling out more and more money, eventually they quit. Their friends also quit one by one their whole big guild was empty. Cause nobody likes a game that makes it obvious that it's just trying to get you to spend instead of giving you fun that you will want to spend money on. I guess you wouldn't be able to see the difference.So you think they should up the power of eTRing to something people are willing to consider fun enough to spend money on them? Because lowering the price likely isn't a viable answer in a world where they are competing with what Bugs Bunny can make come budget time. Making something isn't enough unless it's reasonably close to what using DDOs budget on something else would make and WB has a lot of "something else" options.

[Gremmlynn]

Re-entries don't pay CoVs. You get them the first time you play on a difficulty setting, if I'm not mistaken. If you were waiting for the quests to reset, then run them again, you're still mounting up experience. There's not a chance you will get 4200 CoVs between level 20-21 - that only requires 300 000 xp. You'll likely get that in 2 hours or less. Anyone who has played epic levels would know this.Anyone who plays DDO would know that re-entries means leaving and re-entering a quest one or more times before getting a completion. At -20% xp a pop it is fairly easy to get a completion for full comm value with next to no xp. Is this a practical example of how the game is played? NO. But it is a possibility within the framework of the games mechanics.

No, it doesn't.Yes it does, if what they want it to support is the feeling that pretty much everyone who plays does so at a more efficient level than what the devs consider "normal". Which would be multiple party wipes where everyone leaves and re-enters the quest building up huge xp penalties. I could correctly claim that almost any car gets infinite gas mileage simply by conducting my tests by pushing the car out the back of a high altitude aircraft and letting gravity do the rest. 5 Miles of free fall is still 5 miles traveled. It's fairly easy when you design a model to achieve a desired result rather than to determine a realistic one.

Then their model doesn't support their stated claims and I am not incorrect.Their model could have been simply designed to support their desired result, rather than a realistic one. That doesn't make their claim any more untrue, just unrealistic.

I don't think you were paying attention to what they wrote and are inferring that when they say "we designed the number so that if you run every quest on EH to cap, you'd have enough hearts" what they really mean is "we want to frustrate you so that you purchase the hearts instead of play the game for them."[quote]No, I read it as the same sort of unrealistic claim I expected to come from pretty much anyone. About as reliable as what most people's resumes for an example. Not so much untrue as a rather selective collection of truths that support the position of the author.

What I expected from the system was enough frustration to get people many people to pay to avoid it. The original comms for saga completions proposal should have shown anyone with a little common sense where they stood on that issue.
[quote]Yes. That's what I wrote. Perhaps you didn't understand that before attacking me through my profession?Not attacking you. Just a bit surprised that someone in your position didn't realize how easily one could set up a model for the sole purpose of supporting their claims.

[deahamlet]

@Gremmlynn

They made an annoying grind to convince people to pay instead of playing to get the heart. That is an obvious cash grab.

What they should have done is first made an end-game that you would want to power yourself up for. They used to have that. I used to value HTR a GREAT deal because I wanted higher DCs, I wanted higher to-hit so when I did eParty I actually could use INT for dmg instead of to-hit cause she needed such a high to-hit to get through. I wanted higher to-hit from ranger PLs, more damage, even wanted barbarian PL for higher HP, etc. They were desirable because the goals I had in mind required it. In making HTR desirable, they made me want to run it. In making epic tokens usable for other very useful purposes as well as making farming them a pleasure (I might be alone in this but running epics and challenges was fun for me)... I found it easy to part with my money to buy the heart instead of paying with epic tokens for it. In fact, farming epic tokens was never a huge goal because the path to getting said tokens included farming for gear (seals, scrolls, base item, etc) and challenges were fun to run both for tokens or gear.

Now contrast that with ETR or even HTR in today's world. HTR benefits are nice but pale next to epic destinies and twists. AC was changed, don't need that to-hit so much. DCs in EE content are irrelevant, all the PLs in the world won't help you unless you are drunk on store pots each quest. The game does not require anymore either HTR benefits or ETR benefits. They are an optional eh... might be nice.

So the mistakes:
1. The ETR game is not required for any goals other than to just do it cause...
2. They produced an ETR wheel that is not required before producing a decent end-game. I'm dreading giving them any money that would encourage them to put more money into anything but producing an end-game raiding scene and epic scene worthwhile of the name end-game.
3. They introduced a long grind that is obviously made to push you to buy.

Considering 2 and 3, I feel like giving them money for an epic heart would encourage them to A. not produce an end-game cause this TR thing is producing them enough money with minimal cost and B. introduce long pointless grinds that are simply meant to push you towards paying. I don't want that kind of game, I'm not going to give money to encourage A and B.

[Gremmlynn]

@Gremmlynn

They made an annoying grind to convince people to pay instead of playing to get the heart. That is an obvious cash grab.Well grabbing cash is why they made the game. But really, 25tp/100 favor is, if anything, an even more annoying grind, but people don't seem to think that is a problem.


What they should have done is first made an end-game that you would want to power yourself up for. They used to have that. I used to value HTR a GREAT deal because I wanted higher DCs, I wanted higher to-hit so when I did eParty I actually could use INT for dmg instead of to-hit cause she needed such a high to-hit to get through. I wanted higher to-hit from ranger PLs, more damage, even wanted barbarian PL for higher HP, etc. They were desirable because the goals I had in mind required it. In making HTR desirable, they made me want to run it. In making epic tokens usable for other very useful purposes as well as making farming them a pleasure (I might be alone in this but running epics and challenges was fun for me)... I found it easy to part with my money to buy the heart instead of paying with epic tokens for it. In fact, farming epic tokens was never a huge goal because the path to getting said tokens included farming for gear (seals, scrolls, base item, etc) and challenges were fun to run both for tokens or gear. That would be nice, I just don't think there are enough of us around to buy it to make it a cost effective solution. Look at the last expansion. They needed to charge an arm and a leg for what was basically 2 raidless adventure packs just to make that cost effective.


Now contrast that with ETR or even HTR in today's world. HTR benefits are nice but pale next to epic destinies and twists. AC was changed, don't need that to-hit so much. DCs in EE content are irrelevant, all the PLs in the world won't help you unless you are drunk on store pots each quest. The game does not require anymore either HTR benefits or ETR benefits. They are an optional eh... might be nice.

So the mistakes:
1. The ETR game is not required for any goals other than to just do it cause...
2. They produced an ETR wheel that is not required before producing a decent end-game. I'm dreading giving them any money that would encourage them to put more money into anything but producing an end-game raiding scene and epic scene worthwhile of the name end-game.
3. They introduced a long grind that is obviously made to push you to buy.

Considering 2 and 3, I feel like giving them money for an epic heart would encourage them to A. not produce an end-game cause this TR thing is producing them enough money with minimal cost and B. introduce long pointless grinds that are simply meant to push you towards paying. I don't want that kind of game, I'm not going to give money to encourage A and B.Frankly, I'm not a big fan of the situation myself.

Personally I think their mistakes were to not advertise enough to have a big enough customer base to be able to produce an end game, or even more than a pittance of actual new content that isn't declared an expansion. But that's not going to happen. It seems to me, they are trying to find a source of recurring income that will allow them to not just go into maintenance mode, or shut down completely.

But nobody seems to be considering the big picture as to why they are doing the things they are and why they possibly can't do them the way many seem to want them to. I'm not advocating anything here, just explaining my take on what the situation is. That take is that either recurring heart sales generate enough income to cover the development of content at a loss, or they stop producing new content and maybe just pull the plug.

[Dandonk]

I have now gotten to 28 again. New thread with the latest findings: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/432282-Round-2-of-comm-gain-from-20-to-28