Eldritch Archer:Self-sufficient wizard AA

[Arsont]

Greetings. I've been tossing this idea around in my head for a couple weeks now, and threw it at a couple friends too. Since I'm not getting any new insights, I think it's time to bring it here. Mostly theorycrafting, but I'll flesh out what I can.

The goal is to have a self-sufficient build for my main with which to do his wizard life. A little background info: My main is, and always will be (Unless Turbine just completly kills it) an Arcane Archer. That being said, I've done my best to make sure this is playable (Short of actually TRing into it), and will be worth a party slot. The idea is a self-healing, durable melee with moderate ranged and melee dps. Selfcast Quickened recon, displacement and haste should help a bit too.


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Arsont Angelfire
Level 28 Lawful Neutral Warforged Male
(2 Monk \ 6 Ranger \ 12 Wizard \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 490
Spell Points: 1371
BAB: 13\13\18\23
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 17
Will: 13

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 16 26
Dexterity 16 21
Constitution 18 22
Intelligence 14 18
Wisdom 6 10
Charisma 6 10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
+4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 3 18
Bluff -2 8
Concentration 7 21
Diplomacy -2 23
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 8
Heal -2 8
Hide 3 13
Intimidate -2 8
Jump 3 16
Listen -2 8
Move Silently 3 13
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 6 36
Search 2 13
Spellcraft 6 35
Spot -2 20
Swim 3 16
Tumble 3.5 14
Use Magic Device 0 20

Level 1 (Wizard)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Artificer
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Barbarian
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Bard
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Druid
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Rogue
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 2 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Undead


Level 3 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 6 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 7 (Ranger)


Level 8 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider


Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 10 (Wizard)


Level 11 (Wizard)


Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell


Level 14 (Wizard)


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 16 (Wizard)


Level 17 (Wizard)


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Precise Shot
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell


Level 19 (Wizard)


Level 20 (Wizard)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Toughness


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Combat Archery


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Tactician




Feats
The heroic level feats are basically set in stone; Bab requirements for most of them limit when I can take certain feats, so I've fit things in the best I can. Beside not getting IPS until 18 (A problem I've had on other lives) it's workable. Extend is taken later than quicken so I can dump concentration and because nothing really needs extend until Haste. I've toyed with the idea of dropping something to pick up Zen Archery to make use of some of the monk things (Namely, Sun-Soul in earth stance with Sireth and Dance of Flowers), but I'm not sure how practical that would be at this point*

I'm also not sold on my epic feat choices. I'd like to fit in OC and Combat Archery at the least. It's then a toss-up between Epic Toughness and Epic DR; I'm not sure which is overall more useful. Destiny feats are even more relaxed. If I intend to keep Stunning Blow, I'd like to pick up Tactician as well.

*Depending when we get the cap pushed to 30, and assuming we get another feat then, I'd probably keep my heroic feats as they are and fit in Zen Archery in the epic feats.

Skills
Skills are pretty simple. The bulk goes into Repair and Spellcraft for the boosts to Reconstruct and the Eldritch enhancements. A point in tumble and some UMD for good measure, enough diplo to get the "best" result from tea with the Queen (Assuming gear) then the rest goes wherever. I'll probably revist my skills and fully dump concentration, and focus on spot or balance.

Destiny
Most likely, I'll be running this in Dreadnought, twisting in Primal Scream (+5/5 Str/Con), Unearthly Reactions (3% dodge, +6 reflex, phasing) and Dragonhide (+6 fort, No auto-fail on 1). I'd probably swap to Fury for raids, swapping Grim Precision for Scream. If I did end up fitting in Zen Archery, I'd probably swap Dragonhide for Dance of Flowers in conjunction with Sireth. And naturally due to being a somewhat ranged build, I could swap to Shiradi, with twists depending on the content and role I'd be running.

Gear
As this is mostly a theorycraft build for now, I haven't bothered much thinking about gear. That being said, I have most of what I need to make this work, minus docents. As this would be the first forgie life for this toon, I haven't made anything other than fleshie armor. I do have a couple of the lower level docents on my LoB FvS (Blademark, Defiance, Quorforged), but nothing really nice for endgame. If I planned on using the Sun-soul bonus with monk stances, I'd have to get the docent and upgrade it, but I can do that sometime before I TR. Depending on how bored I get with my current life, I may or may not be able to grind out enough scales for some dragonscale docents (Both heroic and epic).

Also, I'd have to make sure to work in stunning, probably via Seal of Dun'Robar (Would also consolidate a dodge item). Exceptional stunning would probably fit better on Addy Cloak of the Bear than belt, especially if in monk-mode.

I haven't bothered with final hp/saves/dodge/stun dc yet, since that can all change drastically based on gear. Once I figure out a decent set-up, I'll give it a go. Too tired to do it now though, so will look at it later. I'm open to any suggestions on gear though.

Enhancements
I just realized I didn't flesh this out yet in my post. I'll do a quick summary and edit later if needed.

Currently looking at 32 in AA (Just enough to pick up slayers), 4 in Ninja Spy (3% dodge), 13 in Eldritch Knight (Enough to get the SLAs and Eldritch Barrier), 7 in PM (+30 hp, some spell power), then 20ish in racial (Hp, tactics, whatever. Probably won't take Weapon Attachement due to Manyshot, but still an option). Will expand later.



Again, so far I've just been tossing this build around with a couple friends. If I've missed something or not made something clear, please let me know and I'll do my best to explain. I'm open to any suggestions (Provided they aren't a total change in direction for the build). If you've gotten this far, thanks for reading!

[peng]

I'd drop stunning blow, extend, and either toughness or imp crit: slashing for zen archery and adept/master of forms. Master earth stance gives you an additional +1 crit multiplier on 19-20 as early as level 12. You could drop a 4th feat for grandmaster of forms if you want some more con/prr, or switch your melee imp crit feat to use unarmed/q-staff or shortswords (pretty sure greater twf is better than imp crit tho).

Edit: just realized that extend was a wiz bonus feat. You could drop stun blow, toughness, and epic toughness for zen archery/monk forms. As long as you plan to always be centered, I'd take master of forms before overwhelming crit.

[Vellrad]

I don't think a dance of flowers works with bows.
I'm not sure, but describtion clearly says 'melee'.

[DyrtNap]

I have a suggestion if you have the time and money/TP

A Bladeforged 8wiz/6mnk/6rgr is an amazing choice. I made a non BF version on Lamannia to test and even with only weak repair spells it was pretty amazing. You have VERY solid ranged and decent Melee. You also have a MAX LVL RECONSTRUCT with free meta's.

Its VERY tight on AP e.g. Eldrich 31 min, Racial 11 min, Deepwood 11 min, that is just to have Recon SLA, Sniper Shot and perma Tensers (FYI SLA Recon is not effected by Tensers). You will want SOOOOOOO much more than you can spend.

Its VERY expensive:

Stats since now wisdom becomes another high cap stat i.e. 44ish for 10k stars.

Must have 36pt build

Must have +5 tomes in at least 3 stats.

Must do a LR +3 JUST REMEMBER TO ONLY USE 1 LVL OF PALADIN.

[Arsont]

I have a suggestion if you have the time and money/TP

A Bladeforged 8wiz/6mnk/6rgr is an amazing choice. I made a non BF version on Lamannia to test and even with only weak repair spells it was pretty amazing. You have VERY solid ranged and decent Melee. You also have a MAX LVL RECONSTRUCT with free meta's.

Its VERY tight on AP e.g. Eldrich 31 min, Racial 11 min, Deepwood 11 min, that is just to have Recon SLA, Sniper Shot and perma Tensers (FYI SLA Recon is not effected by Tensers). You will want SOOOOOOO much more than you can spend.

Its VERY expensive:

Stats since now wisdom becomes another high cap stat i.e. 44ish for 10k stars.

Must have 36pt build

Must have +5 tomes in at least 3 stats.

Must do a LR +3 JUST REMEMBER TO ONLY USE 1 LVL OF PALADIN.
While I appreciate the input, the build you suggest would be a radical shift from what I proposed. My build is a self-sufficient melee build with the ability to fall back on Manyshot and Slayer Arrows for burst damage. What you posted is similar in regards to self-sufficiency, but different on other accounts. Firstly, the level split you suggest cannot exist as bladeforged; Bladeforged, by necessity, will have their first level as Paladin. This means either dumping wizard (Counterintuitive to a wizard life), dumping ranger (Loses AA) or dumping monk (Loses several goodies). It would be possible to do a 10/9/1 wizard/ranger/paladin build if you wanted evadion and bladeforged enhancements, but then you lose 10k stars. At which point, the build then becomes essentially the same as the one I posted, in regards to function. All that being said, it would be possible to do a warforged version of the 8/6/6 wiz/ranger/monk build, or swap 6 ranger for 6 bladeforged pally to do a melee version.


I'd drop stunning blow, extend, and either toughness or imp crit: slashing for zen archery and adept/master of forms. Master earth stance gives you an additional +1 crit multiplier on 19-20 as early as level 12. You could drop a 4th feat for grandmaster of forms if you want some more con/prr, or switch your melee imp crit feat to use unarmed/q-staff or shortswords (pretty sure greater twf is better than imp crit tho). Edit: just realized that extend was a wiz bonus feat. You could drop stun blow, toughness, and epic toughness for zen archery/monk forms. As long as you plan to always be centered, I'd take master of forms before overwhelming crit.

I've taken the stances suggestion into consideration. I ran some hp numbers, and it looks like I can hit 1017 hp in Master of Earth, with no toughness/etoughness feats. That puts me within my saftey zone for an EE melee, so it is an option. I'm very reluctant to drop Stunning Blow at the moment though. I could swap toughness for Zen Archery at 4, then pick up Adept and Master of forms somewhere after 20. Assuming level cap by this point is 30, I could drop OCrit in favor of Master of Stances, and swap etoughness for Adept of Stances. I could also swap Stunning Blow in favor of OCrit, something I'll have to think on.

As you noted, no Gtwf feat. This build will be thf, using SoS while leveling, then swapping to Stout Oak and eventually Sireth post 20. I do this for one reason: I hate how warforged look when they run with a weapon in the off-hand. it always just seems to flail about, and it's not pleasant to look at. This build could easily be adapted to twf though; I would probably drop Cleave and Great Cleave in favor of Gtwf and Khopesh, swap perfect thf for the twf variant and drop OCrit for...something. IC:Slash is taken early to maximize the effectiveness of the SoS, but would be swapped to IC:Bludgeon for staff usage.

Having said all this, I'm still not totally sold on trading 82 static hp (Toughness and etoughness at 30) and OCrit for some PRR and conditional variations of the before mentioned (The 1017 noted above drops to 935 if uncentered or in fire stance; OCrit effect is only for Master of Earth). Again, something I'll have to think on.


I don't think a dance of flowers works with bows. I'm not sure, but describtion clearly says 'melee'.
And yes, Dance of Flowers would just apply to the melee portion of the build. I'm likely going to be 70/30 melee/ranged, possibly more melee. Good to point out though.

Thanks everyone for the input so far. I'm working on getting a gear projection together, so that should be done soon.

[DyrtNap]

While I appreciate the input, the build you suggest would be a radical shift from what I proposed. My build is a self-sufficient melee build with the ability to fall back on Manyshot and Slayer Arrows for burst damage. What you posted is similar in regards to self-sufficiency, but different on other accounts. Firstly, the level split you suggest cannot exist as bladeforged; Bladeforged, by necessity, will have their first level as Paladin. This means either dumping wizard (Counterintuitive to a wizard life), dumping ranger (Loses AA) or dumping monk (Loses several goodies). It would be possible to do a 10/9/1 wizard/ranger/paladin build if you wanted evadion and bladeforged enhancements, but then you lose 10k stars. At which point, the build then becomes essentially the same as the one I posted, in regards to function. All that being said, it would be possible to do a warforged version of the 8/6/6 wiz/ranger/monk build, or swap 6 ranger for 6 bladeforged pally to do a melee version.
[/color]

I guess you didn't read U20 patch notes did ya. Iconics can LR out of their 1st level class. Which is why I mentioned the need for a LR +3.

I did only glance through your post because I needed to leave soon to meet family for lunch so I did miss a little. I did realize it would be a race switch which is why i added "if you have the time and money..." it was more or less meant to be a little encouragement that Wizard archer builds are decently strong if done right and give a few possible ideas.

The melee between the two actually isn't going to be much different. Unless I'm missing something your build has that this one wouldn't you gain all the monk goodies and can choose a melee focus through feats and enhancements (which I'm actually building atm). At the very worst we're talking about adding in monk goodies to your build without losing but Buff durations and a few useful spells that are more than offset by the monk gains. If anything you would probably end up with better melee because you gain Stunning Fist, Sneak attack damage, 25% incorp, faster movement, Evasion, a free melee feat(s) that would allow the use of at least Master stances e.g. trade PA for Master Stances grab zen archery and 10k to stay centered with Bows, Celestia's, Sireth or Fists(or whatever your choice).

[peng]

I don't think a dance of flowers works with bows.
I'm not sure, but describtion clearly says 'melee'.

Last time I checked (before u19) dance of flowers seemed to be working with centered bows, but not in the weapon description. Testing damage numbers on the training dummy seemed consistent with dance of flowers working. If someone could confirm that testing, that would be helpful.

About dropping stunning blow: it's pretty difficult to get a good dc, so I tend not to bother.

[Arsont]

I guess you didn't read U20 patch notes did ya. Iconics can LR out of their 1st level class. Which is why I mentioned the need for a LR +3.

I did only glance through your post because I needed to leave soon to meet family for lunch so I did miss a little. I did realize it would be a race switch which is why i added "if you have the time and money..." it was more or less meant to be a little encouragement that Wizard archer builds are decently strong if done right and give a few possible ideas.

The melee between the two actually isn't going to be much different. Unless I'm missing something your build has that this one wouldn't you gain all the monk goodies and can choose a melee focus through feats and enhancements (which I'm actually building atm). At the very worst we're talking about adding in monk goodies to your build without losing but Buff durations and a few useful spells that are more than offset by the monk gains. If anything you would probably end up with better melee because you gain Stunning Fist, Sneak attack damage, 25% incorp, faster movement, Evasion, a free melee feat(s) that would allow the use of at least Master stances e.g. trade PA for Master Stances grab zen archery and 10k to stay centered with Bows, Celestia's, Sireth or Fists(or whatever your choice).

I didn't see the bit about being able to LR out of the base Iconic levels, but after some searching I was able to find a seperate post from Glin that elaborated on the issue. So yes, thank you for pointing that out to me. Funds are not an issue, as I already have the iconic races through the pre-order and this toon has at least a +4 tome in every stat. That being said...

I'm not keen on the idea of a Bladeforged for one main reason: The best thing it brings, imo, is the full caster level Reconstruct. The negative to both dex and wisdom is unfortunate, especially for a build that intends to use the bow to some degree (Whether with dex or Zen Archery), particuarly if trying to meet the dex requirements for IPS, never mind Combat Archery. Back in the day when you could hit everything on a 2 with PA on, it wouldn't bother me as much. Now, though, it gives me pause for consideration. It would still be doable, but it just seems to be a waste of build points to reach the needed benchmarks. Bladeforged is also behind 10 hp, but that's trivial. Negatives aside, I do like the Power of the Forge boost and the Communion of Handling.

What I mean is this: A 6 monk split would be used to pick up 10k stars. To make the best use of 10k stars, you want as much wis as possible. With that in mind, you max wisdom (16 build points, leaving us with 20) to 16. 16+5 tome+8 item+3 insight+2 yugo+2 alchemical+3 master of ocean+2 enhancements+1 exc+2 ship=44. Good enough to make 10k stars worthwhile. However, this leaves dex at the minimum 14 (+5 tome) needed for IPS, str at 14 and con at 14. Again, it's doable, but I don't feel the investment is worthwhile. This was my main decision in using dex as my primary ranged stat, choosing to dump wisdom, and thus not building for 10k stars.

You are correct on the account of the melee being similar, but I should have made that more clear instead of using such hyperbole. I would use staves regardless of the build. Melee should be higher with staves (Namely, Sireth), due to LD boosts.

The build loses much more than "Buff durations and a few useful spells" by dropping to 8 wizard as well. Part of my build is it must have Slayer arrows; This locks it out from the permament Tensor's effect from EK. Because of this, being able to cast extended Tensor's is a must. I cannot agree that there are enough monk goodies to make the exchange worthwhile. While Shadow Veil and faster movement would be nice, they're the only thing I can really appreciate. Stunning Fist cannot be used with quarterstaves, which is my preferred weapon for centered builds of this sort. Also, the majority of the LD destiny does not apply to unarmed, further pushing my decision towards staves, negating added damage dice of more monk levels. Sneak attack would be nice, but as I generally only solo, the SA would only apply on stunned mobs. In the build I posted, with the changes I noted, I would still be able to pick up Zen Archery, Adept of Stances and Master of Stances.

In my previous post, when I refer to monk goodness, I'm referring first to evasion and two feats, the usage of fire stance for Stunning Blow DC's, as well as the boost to soloing via earth stance in tandem with the Sun Soul set. When centered, monk 2 also gives 4% dodge, which would come in handy too.


While I realize this is probably a bit long, I felt it important to let you know that I'm not trashing your suggestions, but they are not in line with the original goals of the build. Hopefully this explains a few things.

[Arsont]

Last time I checked (before u19) dance of flowers seemed to be working with centered bows, but not in the weapon description. Testing damage numbers on the training dummy seemed consistent with dance of flowers working. If someone could confirm that testing, that would be helpful.

About dropping stunning blow: it's pretty difficult to get a good dc, so I tend not to bother.

I may have to test again now that my main is capped. Last I checked, however, it didn't seem so. I certainly hope it has changed, but it wouldn't bother me too much if not.

I've looked at my stunning blow DC, and with my projected gear layout I'm just able to get a 61; From what I've gathered, that is just barely enough to get by stunning casters or roguish types. I'm going to end up swapping it for Zen Archery. Dropping Stunning Blow also lets me drop Tactician, which I could swap for toughness (Or Spell Power:Repair, if I really wanted). Should I do that, I'd be willing to swap eToughness for Adept of Stances, and then postpone Combat Archery or OCrit until 30 (Assuming we get a feat then) in order to pick up Master of stances.

[MaxBhaalspawn]

I have a suggestion if you have the time and money/TP

Must do a LR +3 JUST REMEMBER TO ONLY USE 1 LVL OF PALADIN.

Why a +3 and not only a +1 to get rid of pally 1?

[Twinkly]

Spellsword did not work on my throwing dagger, my darts, my bow, nor arrows. Must be a bug.

[Twinkly]

Update: Just noticed that spellsword is now applying to my bow. However, still not working on a thrower. C'mon turbine, how hard can it be?


Is that 61 stun totally maxed out?

[Arsont]

Update: Just noticed that spellsword is now applying to my bow. However, still not working on a thrower. C'mon turbine, how hard can it be?


Is that 61 stun totally maxed out?

Slightly off topic, but Spellsword is also applying to unarmed, which I was not expecting.

On topic:
61 stun isn't full-tilt maxed, but it's pretty close. After looking at gear again, stun dc will look something like this:

Assuming 16 base str, all levels to str, epic Tactics feat, Master of Stances (2 feats minimum-Adept and Master of stances):
16 base+7 level+4 tome+8 item+3 insight+6 tensors+5 primal scream+2 profane+1 exc+4 Fury+2 yugo+2 ship=58=25 str mod

Stun DC:10 base+25 str+3 warforged+1 Fighter PL+6 LD+10 Seal of Dun'Robar+6 Adamantine Cloak of the Bear+2 Tactician=63

I -could- squeeze in few more points to that dc. Max str, +5 tome and a couple points in EK would give me 66. Fitting in a +10 str item is another +1 for a grand total of 67.

How effective is a dc 63?

Gear
Helm: Epic White Dragon (Str 8)
Eyes: Gs Conc-Opp w/ 45 hp
Neck: Skirmisher (Deadly +8, Dodge 9%)
Docent: Stone Heart w/ Sun Soul/ Flawless White Dragon
Cloak: Adamantine Cloak of the Bear (Combat Mastery +6)
Bracers: Sun Soul (Insightful Con +2)/Guardian's Bracers
Gloves: EE Nether Grasps (+2 profane str)
Belt: Sun Soul (Con 7)/Guardian's Girdle
Ring 1: Seal of Dun'Robar (Stunning +10)
Ring 2: EE Consuming Darkness (Seeker 12)
Boots: Treads of Falling Shadow (Dex +8, Insight Dex +3) or Halcyon Boots
Trinket: Focus of Prowess (Insight Str +3)

This isn't a 100% final gear layout, but it gives a general idea of how I'd fit things in. Most of this I already have, so that's not a problem. Slots are pretty flexible; Main things to slot are PRR, resistance, vitality and int. Bracers and neck are probably going to be swap slots, but what I have listed is likely the setup I'll be shooting for.
In cases where there are two items listed but seperated by a backslash, the first set assumes I'm centered and using Sun Soul.


Gear setup will probably change if I'm not wanting to use Stunning Blow and be centered, namely cloak and rings. The rest is pretty standard.

Thanks for the input, I look forward to more!