Sorc evocation fail

[maximus123123123]

So here's been my experience with sorc evocation (air savant).

Sorc > Zap (say chain lightning)

EE Mobs > Evade... Evade... Evade...

Sorc > turn on Heighten, Maximize, Empower
Sorc > ZAP

EE Mobs > Evade... Evade... Evade...

Sorc > ZAP
EE Mobs > Evade... Evade... Evade...

Sorc > ZAP
EE Mobs > Evade... Evade... Evade...

Sorc > "I think I will switch to Shiradi...."

That's been my experience on EE (EN and EH work a bit better of course).

Anyway, Let the Flaming Begin !
-----------------------------------

[Vellrad]

Stick with polar ray and horrid wilting.

[Rush007]

So here's been my experience with sorc evocation (air savant).

Sorc > Zap (say chain lightning)

EE Mobs > Evade... Evade... Evade...

Sorc > turn on Heighten, Maximize, Empower
Sorc > ZAP

EE Mobs > Evade... Evade... Evade...

Sorc > ZAP
EE Mobs > Evade... Evade... Evade...

Sorc > ZAP
EE Mobs > Evade... Evade... Evade...

Sorc > "I think I will switch to Shiradi...."

That's been my experience on EE (EN and EH work a bit better of course).

Anyway, Let the Flaming Begin !
-----------------------------------

There isn't much info here, whats your DC, whats your twists and what are you trying to kill. This your log vs a shadakar assassin because a lot of EE mobs don't have evasion.

[maximus123123123]

My point is, has anyone actually been able to make an evocation sorc work? (i.e. evocation with draconic incarnation not shiradi.)
Because I'm thinking it's impossible, at least if you intend to play Epic Elite at some point.

[chrisdinus7]

My point is, has anyone actually been able to make an evocation sorc work? (i.e. evocation with draconic incarnation not shiradi.)
Because I'm thinking it's impossible, at least if you intend to play Epic Elite at some point.

A lot of mobs don't actually have evasion. Even when they do, if you are properly set, you can get past it. For a lightning savant, the level 4 spell augmentation in draconic gives a 15% chance to reduce the reflex save by 10 of any target hit by your electric spells. Magister's level 3 school augmentation does the same thing, but for evocation spells. These stack with each other and proc per hit, not spell. So, a magic missile with the evo aug has ~50% chance to debuff a target per cast. If you build for saves, and use the two debuffs, you can land your spells on pretty much anything. It is just a whole lot easier to be a shiradi.

[maximus123123123]

...EE mobs don't have evasion.

Many have evasion.
Those that don't still get 50% off damage when they save and on EE they save a lot. Very expensive when you are trying to convert spell points into DPS.

[Rush007]

My point is, has anyone actually been able to make an evocation sorc work? (i.e. evocation with draconic incarnation not shiradi.)
Because I'm thinking it's impossible, at least if you intend to play Epic Elite at some point.

So twist magister tier 3 evocation augmention for 15% chance to apply -10 reflex saves. Lead with a no save evocation spell. Magic missle works great because just like shiradi it gets multiple times to proc, don't even max or empower. Fire this first on the reflex heavy mob, follow with the boom.

For groups use ice storm or chain missles. If your built correctly this will help.

[maximus123123123]

If you build for saves, and use the two debuffs, you can land your spells on pretty much anything. It is just a whole lot easier to be a shiradi.

I want to hear from someone that claims they have a viable EE capable Draconic Incarnation toon that does not need to guzzle a bunch of mana pots.

I believe evo based sorcs using, e.g., Air Savant electric spells (not Shiradi evo mind you) is not viable end game for EE questing.

[Rush007]

I want to hear from someone that claims they have a viable EE capable Draconic Incarnation toon that does not need to guzzle a bunch of mana pots.

I believe evo based sorcs using, e.g., Air Savant electric spells (not Shiradi evo mind you) is not viable end game for EE questing.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Sigh.

[Drwaz99]

I want to hear from someone that claims they have a viable EE capable Draconic Incarnation toon that does not need to guzzle a bunch of mana pots.

I believe evo based sorcs using, e.g., Air Savant electric spells (not Shiradi evo mind you) is not viable end game for EE questing.

Here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/430512-Solo-EE-WGU-fleshie-Sorc-in-DI-Flawless

Air Savant in DI WGU EE Solo.

His build:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/415819-Farwind-An-Air-savant-Endgame-EE-DPS-Build

[maximus123123123]

So twist magister tier 3 evocation augmention for 15% chance to apply -10 reflex saves. Lead with a no save evocation spell. Magic missle works great because just like shiradi it gets multiple times to proc, don't even max or empower. Fire this first on the reflex heavy mob, follow with the boom.

For groups use ice storm or chain missles. If your built correctly this will help.

You're talking about using magic missiles, chain missiles, ice storm...
I'm talking about an Air Savant that wants to use her ELECTRIC SPELLS.
It's not as though there aren't any...
Why use everything else? Because an Air Savant that wants to use Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Ball Lightning, etc., is not viable. At least admit it...

[danotmano1998]

I want to hear from someone that claims they have a viable EE capable Draconic Incarnation toon that does not need to guzzle a bunch of mana pots.

I believe evo based sorcs using, e.g., Air Savant electric spells (not Shiradi evo mind you) is not viable end game for EE questing.


OP, I feel your pain. I went electric for a while, realized everything and it's dog saved constantly (at least, it felt that way to me), and promptly respec'd into ice. Since then, I stick to ice/fire/acid and enjoy the ride a lot more. Electric just doesn't have those no-save options or persistant AOE's that make up the effective arsenal in my opinion.

[Rush007]

You're talking about using magic missiles, chain missiles, ice storm...
I'm talking about an Air Savant that wants to use her ELECTRIC SPELLS.
It's not as though there aren't any...
Why use everything else? Because an Air Savant that wants to use Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Ball Lightning, etc., is not viable. At least admit it...

Because there is a reason to use them? Magic missle, no save, multi hit to proc debuff. Its called more than 3 buttons and using your head. If you want to continue playing enlightened about your ability go shiradi like you want to so you don't have to think.

[mobrien316]

Air savant can be tough to run in epic elite. Largely because, until you get to epic elite, you can essentially spam your SLA Electric Loop, SLA Lightning Bolts, and toss in occasional Chain Lightnings to clear most mobs. That isn't nearly as effective in EE, often not even in EH.

As others have mentioned, you have to change up your play style a bit. Debuffing mobs is a pain, and it's slow, but it's effective.

[maximus123123123]

Because there is a reason to use them? Magic missle, no save, multi hit to proc debuff. Its called more than 3 buttons and using your head. If you want to continue playing enlightened about your ability go shiradi like you want to so you don't have to think.

When I play an Air Savant, I want to play with Electric Spells...That's the whole point.
Air Savant is not viable on EE unless you do as you said, use spells other than Electric Spells, but then what's the point in that? Just go Shiradi and save yourself the trouble...

[Gauthaag]

use enlarged shocking grasp:) no save

[Miow]

Because there is a reason to use them? Magic missle, no save, multi hit to proc debuff. Its called more than 3 buttons and using your head. If you want to continue playing enlightened about your ability go shiradi like you want to so you don't have to think.

I think the op wants to know if you can achieve and maintain a great working dc with evocation spells without having to resort to debuffing everything first. At least that is what I'm understanding.

[lugoman]

I just switched from ice to elec savant. In addition to the saves issue, the elec spells seem to have aiming issues. I seem to cast into the ground a lot. Maybe I just need more practice.

[HastyPudding]

Of all sorcerer types, air savant requires the most work, as they are 99% dependent on evocation DC's for damage, and every lightning spell except 2 require the mob to make a reflex save. You need to go wizard-style with your DC's or you're never going to make it; that includes going non-warforged, as their penalty to charisma and lack of charisma enhancements is severely detrimental to what you need. Fire savants are in a slightly less restricting corner, but still require DC's for all but a couple of their spells. Earth and water savants can easily get away with lower DC's.

In a nutshell, air savant is a poor choice for a sorcerer if you plan on going into a lot of EE quests.

[Rush007]

When I play an Air Savant, I want to play with Electric Spells...That's the whole point.
Air Savant is not viable on EE unless you do as you said, use spells other than Electric Spells, but then what's the point in that? Just go Shiradi and save yourself the trouble...

Why limit yourself to only electric spells? What do you do vs electric immune mobs, resistant mobs? Addressing this will make you a better player if you open up your mind about the possibilities you possess. Right now its closed and nothing I can say will change that. Only you can accept change.

[Draxis]

Evocation magic in ee takes some work. You HAVE to debuff their saves somehow first. Even then, I really really recommend grinding past lives. That +3 can be the difference between 'This is not so bad' and utter frustration.

[Rush007]

I think the op wants to know if you can achieve and maintain a great working dc with evocation spells without having to resort to debuffing everything first. At least that is what I'm understanding.

Not everything has over the top reflex saves. Archers, assassins you change tactics.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Why limit yourself to only electric spells? What do you do vs electric immune mobs, resistant mobs? Addressing this will make you a better player if you open up your mind about the possibilities you possess. Right now its closed and nothing I can say will change that. Only you can accept change.

As silly as you made it sound, it's true. I like to call sorcs the barbarians of casters, and it's not just because of massive damage. On the surface they look like cake DPS with minimal hotbars, but players who go into either of those classes as though they require no more planning or thought than "what four things should I bother to hotkey" are just lousy players.

[HastyPudding]

Not everything has over the top reflex saves. Archers, assassins you change tactics.

Except the problem is that end-game right now is filled to the brim with assassins, wolves, and other things with high reflexes.

In fact, the last few major updates have been geared towards angering player casters. MoTU was filled with so many drow with evasion that for a long time it was just a pain in the rear. Then epic gianthold came out, and many mobs had very high fortitude saves or were immune to enchantments, p*ssing off the necromancy/enchantment wizards. Now we have shadowfell, filled to the brim with high reflex assassins, enchantment-immune shadows, high will-save casters, and veritable hordes of mobs that require heavy crowd control/instant death spells or aoe dps to get by on higher difficulties.

[Miow]

Evocation magic in ee takes some work. You HAVE to debuff their saves somehow first. Even then, I really really recommend grinding past lives. That +3 can be the difference between 'This is not so bad' and utter frustration.

Good work, i'm in agreement and i also took a wizard PL.

To the OP your answer is no it's just not feasible to rely on your evo electric spells without debuffs. That is the painful reality.

[IronClan]

I think the op wants to know if you can achieve and maintain a great working dc with evocation spells without having to resort to debuffing everything first. At least that is what I'm understanding.

So in other words he wants to play poorly, be one dimensional, use no tactics whatsoever, mash the same 4 hot keys over and over and still succeed in the hardest content the game has to offer?

Did I get that about right?

[Miow]

So in other words he wants to play poorly, be one dimensional, use no tactics whatsoever, mash the same 4 hot keys over and over and still succeed in the hardest content the game has to offer?

Did I get that about right?

Nope i think he just wants to prove that it's not possible to rely on what can be achieved with his evo dc electric spells. Working on getting a great working dc is one part of tactics imo. Plus I'm pretty sure he has other spells in his book for stuff that's immune to electric hahaha crazy not to.

Where is your evil twin.

[Draxis]

So in other words he wants to play poorly, be one dimensional, use no tactics whatsoever, mash the same 4 hot keys over and over and still succeed in the hardest content the game has to offer?

Did I get that about right?

No need to be so derisive. Let people play how they want to play.

But the answer is no - Even with all the feats, pl feats, epic destinies, bard songs, ship buffs, and a +5 item, you will not achieve the evocation DCs to consistently affect ALL mobs in ee without a debuff. Even with the debuff, those Shadar-kai assassins are a PITA.

It's stupid-easy to twist in the -10 reflex debuff from Magister, though. Even if a non-evasion mob saves the first time, they're still potentially affected by the debuff.

[Wizza]

In a nutshell, unskilled and ungeared air savant is a poor choice for a sorcerer if you plan on going into a lot of EE quests.

Ftfy.

[IronClan]

No need to be so derisive. Let people play how they want to play.

It may be harsh but it sounds like that is what he wants, as he has ignored good advice over and over responding with basically "But I don't wanna". Only he's phrased "I don't wanna" in much more provocative passive aggressive way.

[Vellrad]

No need to be so derisive. Let people play how they want to play.

But the answer is no - Even with all the feats, pl feats, epic destinies, bard songs, ship buffs, and a +5 item, you will not achieve the evocation DCs to consistently affect ALL mobs in ee without a debuff. Even with the debuff, those Shadar-kai assassins are a PITA.

It's stupid-easy to twist in the -10 reflex debuff from Magister, though. Even if a non-evasion mob saves the first time, they're still potentially affected by the debuff.

My guildie, who is completionist druid, spams his earthquakes. He don't got +5 orb or anything, but mobs lie on the ground most of the time.


So in other words he wants to play poorly, be one dimensional, use no tactics whatsoever, mash the same 4 hot keys over and over and still succeed in the hardest content the game has to offer?

Did I get that about right?

That's more than most of players, as majority just wants to hold down attack key and win.

[oberon131313]

My guildie, who is completionist druid, spams his earthquakes. He don't got +5 orb or anything, but mobs lie on the ground most of the time.

To be fair, earthquake is a special case, in that it forces saves every couple seconds and is persistent. If you look at the average for it to hit one mob on the first save chance, it starts to average out to what you would see on another caster casting a spell with the same dc chance.

[Mattimeo_the_Sorcere]

My point is, has anyone actually been able to make an evocation sorc work? (i.e. evocation with draconic incarnation not shiradi.)
Because I'm thinking it's impossible, at least if you intend to play Epic Elite at some point.

I'm a Draconic Incarnation Sorcerer and I actually don't use twists since I think it's too much work to grind off-destinies just to get [one] ability that may be useful for me. That being said, my strategy for EEs as a sorc is this:

- For starters, drink Essence of Seduction potions from Yugoloth and use guild-buff shrines to give you +2 to your DCs

-Use Sunburst, primarily for blinding

- Solid Fog for a -5 debuff to reflex saves, if you can spare a spell slot. It works even on purple and red named bosses.

- Use Otto's Irresistible Dance

- Make use of your Draconic Abilities such as Roar, Energy Burst, and Dragon Breath

- Ruin. It exists. You're a sorcerer with god-mode SP. USE IT.


Sunburst is my go-to crowd control spells on most EEs because it can permanently blind even EE enemies should they fail their reflex saves. It's quick-casting and spammable and it basically makes your allies invisible to the enemy, only it's more useful than the actual invisibility spell in my opinion.

Otto's Irresistible Dance is another great spell because as long as you can beat Spell Resistance, you can pin almost anyone down with it. I used it to great effect in EE Gianthold Tor and did pretty well in that dungeon.

Your draconic abilities exist for a reason. To use them. They generally have higher DCs than what you can get on any of your spells, even evocation, so abuse them. Flyby Attack is great for tripping even a group of enemies and it's an ability I rarely see others use in the field. It has a minute cooldown so only use this when you absolutely need it, which you inevitably will when you get swarmed by a bunch of enemies in an ambush. Fly through them, knock them down, turn around and blast them with some dragon breath.

Dragon Breath and Energy Burst are also great for their damage and while both hit reflex saves, they have higher DCs because they calculate
your character level in with the DC number, so you should be hitting with them more often than not.

Then there is Draconic Roar. Another skill I rarely see used unless it's me using it. It's a fear-based will-save AOE centered on yourself to freeze a bunch of enemies. This works on spiders, humanoids, and most other enemies. The duration is 15 seconds but that's more than enough time to give you an escape, a breather, and an opportunity to blast them with dragon breath or set up some other CC spells. It's probably one of the best, if not the best, crowd control spell sorcerers can get and it costs you nothing to use. Unfortunately, it also has a minute cooldown so use this when necessary to get best results.

Again, just about all your draconic abilities have higher DCs than most of your spells and most of them cost you little to nothing to use, so make the best out of them.

Finally, you got Ruin. Honestly, screw what the nay-sayers say. I took this spell and I'm happy I did because it is extremely powerful and I can only imagine how much damage it would do in the hands of a force-specialized caster. It offers no saving throw, just pure damage. Because sorcerers (and favored souls) have a lot of SP, the spell does best in their hands. However, the extreme cost of the spell (90-100 SP when Maximized and Empowered) may discourage you from taking it at first, the spell wasn't meant to be spammed like a magic missile, despite its relatively fast cooldown of 30 seconds. Use it only for bosses (it's a single target spell) and powerful enemies who would otherwise resist your spell-like abilities or the primary element of your draconic abilities. They'll always take damage no matter what, you contribute significantly to DPS when you cast your other cheaper spells while it is on cooldown, and with its critical damage potential, it can one-hit kill weaker enemies, if not severely damage them. Just be careful with it and don't use it on half-dead enemies that the melee are already swinging at.

Anyway, that's all the advice I can think of at the moment. Hope this helps.

[merridyan]

I'm a Draconic Incarnation Sorcerer and I actually don't use twists since I think it's too much work to grind off-destinies just to get [one] ability that may be useful for me. That being said, my strategy for EEs as a sorc is this:


Its 3 abilities that you can twist in not one. +3 evocation DC not useful? 10% more SP not useful? you may want to re-think that.

[Mattimeo_the_Sorcere]

Its 3 abilities that you can twist in not one. +3 evocation DC not useful? 10% more SP not useful? you may want to re-think that.

Honestly, I hate grinding and as I've said before (if you decided to read anything I said besides what you quoted from me) I don't want to have to run off-destinies to get extra stuff. That's not how I want to play, it's not fun to me, and it feels like work. Sure, you get useful stuff from it but the effort you have to put into it is not fun. It's why I'll never TR again and why I'm sticking to my one Epic Destiny. I had fun grinding for the Epic Destiny I like but I don't like the idea of having to grind destinies I don't find as "fun" just to get one OR three new abilities.

I never said it wasn't useful; I said it was "too much work."


So trust me, I don't need to re-think anything. You just need to learn to read.

[merridyan]

Honestly, I hate grinding and as I've said before (if you decided to read anything I said besides what you quoted from me) I don't want to have to run off-destinies to get extra stuff. That's not how I want to play, it's not fun to me, and it feels like work. Sure, you get useful stuff from it but the effort you have to put into it is not fun. It's why I'll never TR again and why I'm sticking to my one Epic Destiny. I had fun grinding for the Epic Destiny I like but I don't like the idea of having to grind destinies I don't find as "fun" just to get one OR three new abilities.

I never said it wasn't useful; I said it was "too much work."


So trust me, I don't need to re-think anything. You just need to learn to read.

...

[Mattimeo_the_Sorcere]

Lols be second rate sorc.. no skin off my nose.

Have you ever even played a sorcerer before? My character does fairly well on EE content even without the twists. I have enough player skill that relying on that system isn't necessary and the tips I offered to the OP, I offered them because they do work. Nice rebuttal, by the way. That just means I proved my point.

[merridyan]

Have you ever even played a sorcerer before? My character does fairly well on EE content even without the twists. I have enough player skill that relying on that system isn't necessary and the tips I offered to the OP, I offered them because they do work. Nice rebuttal, by the way. That just means I proved my point.

The thing is, you have already earned 1 fate point, get a few AP in Magister, which requires little to no work (2 runs of von3 would probably do it). You can then twist in +1 charisma, or +6 concentration/will save. I can understand that grinding all fate points is too much work. But getting a couple level 1 twists is pretty darned easy.

[Mattimeo_the_Sorcere]

The thing is, you have already earned 1 fate point, get a few AP in Magister, which requires little to no work (2 runs of von3 would probably do it). You can then twist in +1 charisma, or +6 concentration/will save. I can understand that grinding all fate points is too much work. But getting a couple level 1 twists is pretty darned easy.

Well, when you put it that way, that doesn't sound so bad. Thank you for clarifying. Making the jump from DI to Magister as a sorcerer doesn't sound as time-consuming as say, making the jump from Arcane Sphere to Divine Sphere and it is magic-related so I may just do that.


...Maybe.

[HAL]

It may be harsh but it sounds like that is what he wants, as he has ignored good advice over and over responding with basically "But I don't wanna". Only he's phrased "I don't wanna" in much more provocative passive aggressive way.

I have very good reading comprehension (I don't know about many others in this thread).

What I read is the OP asking if there is a way to be successful with straight Evocation, in his selected element, in Draconic Incarnation ED, in EE quests, without drinking a lot of mana pots. That is very clear and very specific. And then I see a lot of people making recommendations to use other things than straight Evocation (I don't know of any debuffs that are Evocation spells), or another element, etc.

Instead of giving all this advice that doesn't actually answer the OP's question, those people should just simply say "No" or "I can't think of a way to do it".

So your summation is completely inaccurate.

[Wipey]

But the answer is yes :)
You can get to 60 evo and that's enough because it's mostly against reflex saves ( like druids earthquake is effective ) unlike hjealzors implosion against fort save ( my cleric 65 evo is wonky in some places ).

Yes it's not easy button Shiradi ( aka jump around, cast 2 spells, stuff dies ) but it works.

Old Zerkul's video but still fantastic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA4q7VRdl_0)

[Mattimeo_the_Sorcere]

I have very good reading comprehension (I don't know about many others in this thread).

What I read is the OP asking if there is a way to be successful with straight Evocation, in his selected element, in Draconic Incarnation ED, in EE quests, without drinking a lot of mana pots. That is very clear and very specific. And then I see a lot of people making recommendations to use other things than straight Evocation (I don't know of any debuffs that are Evocation spells), or another element, etc.

Instead of giving all this advice that doesn't actually answer the OP's question, those people should just simply say "No" or "I can't think of a way to do it".

So your summation is completely inaccurate.

I reread through the OP's thread too and it does seem like he just wants to blast lightning spells in EE. If he just wants to use his element in EE, he could use the Draconic abilities (lightning-based versions) and do OK with those. Also, I already offered using Solid Fog and Sunburst as debuffs and Sunburst is Evocation. Solid Fog is Conjuration but it helps with the absurdly high reflex saves a lot of EE mobs have. But yes, you can't just simply cast lightning spells through an EE reliably unless you prep your mobs in advance. That works fine in EH but EE is a different monster altogether.

[IronClan]

I have very good reading comprehension (I don't know about many others in this thread).

What I read is the OP asking if there is a way to be successful with straight Evocation, in his selected element, in Draconic Incarnation ED, in EE quests, without drinking a lot of mana pots. That is very clear and very specific. And then I see a lot of people making recommendations to use other things than straight Evocation (I don't know of any debuffs that are Evocation spells), or another element, etc.

Instead of giving all this advice that doesn't actually answer the OP's question, those people should just simply say "No" or "I can't think of a way to do it".

So your summation is completely inaccurate.

Personally I think you need to work on those skills a little (or perhaps just actually READ the thread), as plenty of the advice has been strictly "evocation" based as well as Draconic... Not sure how someone with such good self proclaimed reading comprehension missed that. Perhaps your vision was effected by your self back patting?

The OP does not want a real answer to his question, he wants everyone to console him and tell him he did his best and confirm that indeed, if he can't do it, it is actually impossible, as he suspected all along.


You're talking about using magic missiles, chain missiles, ice storm...
I'm talking about an Air Savant that wants to use her ELECTRIC SPELLS.
It's not as though there aren't any...
Why use everything else? Because an Air Savant that wants to use Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Ball Lightning, etc., is not viable. At least admit it...

See?

I say once again: should the hardest most challenging part of the game cater to a player that wants to spam the same 4 spells over and over, and apparently doesn't want to use any tactics at all, or even use passive advantages like debuff procs?

[Clatterfist]

Here are three weapons you can use to help you out without pretending you're not an air savant:

Electric Surge is the first. That is the most direct counter to evading mobs, because it's long range, has no save, builds to massive damage and is extremely efficient. It benefits directly from your being an Air Savant. The drawbacks are that it's slow acting and single target, but as one of the greatest boss killer spells you should know this one anyway, and can resort to it whenever necessary to beat mobs with great saves.

Greater Shout is the second. Air savants get bonuses to sonic spells too, and while the damage on this spell is pretty low it is area of effect and targets the fortitude save, meaning that it can't be evaded. It will apply stacks of vulnerable from your savant core power, and if you can beat the targets' fortitude saves then it'll also daze them. More utility than nukage, but certainly an option when beset by pesky evaders. It doesn't cost much SP, either.

Prismatic Spray is the third. Prismatic Spray isn't exactly a lightning spell (though it can roll an electric result), but it's a tool that belongs to all evokers. It's somewhat random what sort of effect you'll get when you use it...you might get more wasted evades: but it can roll fortitude based effects, will based effects, and as long as you're using it on a large group of targets you've got a decent chance that something will stick. If you can reliably beat a monster's weaker save types with your evocation DC then this spell is excellent at thinning groups of evading mobs. If you can't then it doesn't help much.

Then there's save debuffing, as others have mentioned. This sure doesn't help the efficiency issue, but some of the spells you can use to this purpose are useful in their own right, so don't discount it completely. Solid Fog is very thematic for an air sorcerer and applies a hefty reflex save penalty (-5) without allowing the target any sort of roll to avoid it - no save, no SR check. It also slows those inside, helping to group them up for your nuke, and it grants a concealment miss chance that can't be negated by true seeing. It's a decent package of effects to help you drop a more effective chain lightning. Waves of Exhaustion is another option; it applies a -3 to reflex saves via exhaustion's dexterity reduction, it works on just about anything, lasts for absolutely ages, severely slows non-boss enemies, is area effect and allows no save. The downsides are that it's quite expensive to cast and requires a check against spell resistance.

[chrisdinus7]

I have very good reading comprehension (I don't know about many others in this thread).

What I read is the OP asking if there is a way to be successful with straight Evocation, in his selected element, in Draconic Incarnation ED, in EE quests, without drinking a lot of mana pots. That is very clear and very specific. And then I see a lot of people making recommendations to use other things than straight Evocation (I don't know of any debuffs that are Evocation spells), or another element, etc.

Instead of giving all this advice that doesn't actually answer the OP's question, those people should just simply say "No" or "I can't think of a way to do it".

So your summation is completely inaccurate.

Both of the debuff procs in question work on lightning spells. Lightning spells are basically all evocation, hence the evocation school augmentation can proc on them. Likewise, the other debuff is in draconic and only applies to electric spells. So, if he doesn't want to be slightly more efficient by opening with a MM, he can simply spam his electric spells to proc the debuffs. Each target hit by his SLAs will have a 27% chance (per hit), to get at least a -10 to its reflex save. The most powerful save debuffs available are by spamming evo spells. As such, he can basically spam the SLA electric loop and electric loop until his group of mobs are debuffed, and then chain lightning to his heart's content. He can give them -20 to their saves with nothing but electric spells. Assuming he builds for DCs (should be able to hit the low to mid 60s), that should virtually always land.

You can make a spell spamming sorc in DI and be effective in EE. You can even solo EE quests with it. The first page even contains a link to a thread of someone doing it. It certainly isn't the most efficient build, and a shiradi spammer is probably more effective. But a DI Air Savant can certainly work in EE. Using debuffs doesn't require going outside of electric or evo.

[maximus123123123]

Here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/430512-Solo-EE-WGU-fleshie-Sorc-in-DI-Flawless

Air Savant in DI WGU EE Solo.

His build:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/415819-Farwind-An-Air-savant-Endgame-EE-DPS-Build

He had to leave the quest THREE times in order to get more mana.
That means either the spell point pool for evocation casters needs to be increased three fold or the spell point costs for spells across the board need to be reduced three times over. I'm going to assume he's using maximized, heightened, empowered SLA's and even then he had to leave three times for more mana. Sounds like FAIL to me. I mean, the whole evocation system is completely borked to the point that either no one plays an evocation caster or must do so as an efficient shiradi with force spells. Sorry to burst the bubble of all those who claim it works just fine. Chugging endless spell point pots is not, IMO, a workable solution. And neither is leaving the quest three times or taking a long time to complete a quest by sticking to slow casting SLA's.

[Wipey]

Or maybe hardest quest in the game shouldn't be soloable without using resources.

60 against will and reflex, 65+ against fort kinda works.

Or jump on Shiradi bandwagon, splash 2 fvs and keep pressing Force Missiles, Magic Missile and Chain Missile if you want to solo EEs.

[maximus123123123]

Or maybe hardest quest in the game shouldn't be soloable without using resources.

60 against will and reflex, 65+ against fort kinda works.

Or jump on Shiradi bandwagon, splash 2 fvs and keep pressing Force Missiles, Magic Missile and Chain Missile if you want to solo EEs.

The more people continue to claim evocation sorcs are just fine without shiradi, the more the devs will overlook this very weak archetype and the more people will continue to jump on the Shiradi bandwagon....because it WORKS ! It works the way evocation casters were supposed to work.

[moo_cow]

The more people continue to claim evocation sorcs are just fine without shiradi, the more the devs will overlook this very weak archetype and the more people will continue to jump on the Shiradi bandwagon....because it WORKS ! It works the way evocation casters were supposed to work.

Wow ... seriously if you don't think evocation sorc's are good than you just don't know how to play or you are just lazy.

[maximus123123123]

Wow ... seriously if you don't think evocation sorc's are good than you just don't know how to play or you are just lazy.

Or maybe it is because I know how to play that I can see that evocation is seriously lacking.

Sure a pure evocation Sorc can outkill everything on the map while in Draconic Incarnation, but they will have to continually chug spell point pots to keep up. Therein is the problem and the reason Shiradi is the only way to go for those of us who cannot afford to use 20+ spell point pots per quest.

[maximus123123123]

There is a way to make non-Shiradi evocation casting viable: Give SLA's a viable cooldown (like 1-2 seconds rather than the current 5+ seconds) and make the spell point free to cast. That's basically what a Shiradi sorc is and why it actually WORKS.

[moo_cow]

Or maybe it is because I know how to play that I can see that evocation is seriously lacking.

Sure a pure evocation Sorc can outkill everything on the map while in Draconic Incarnation, but they will have to continually chug spell point pots to keep up. Therein is the problem and the reason Shiradi is the only way to go for those of us who cannot afford to use 20+ spell point pots per quest.

Interesting I usually don't have to pot when I solo and the only quests I actually have to drink pots in, in a group is ee wgu, and only 1 or 2 cause I'm to lazy to run back and shrine.

[maximus123123123]

I have no problem with evocation remaining as is. It is extremely weak IMO, because to fully take advantage of it, you'd run out of spell points super fast. But to each his own I guess.

I definitely prefer Shiradi for the efficiency and effectiveness it provides and would have preferred that pure evocation was more along those lines. But the consensus being that it's just fine, so be it...

Also, I really love how those opposed to Shiradi always use the word "Spam" in their arguments: as in "Spam mm, fm, cm..."
As though cc casters don't spam cc spells, monks don't spam fist swings, melee don't spam sword swings, archers don't spam arrows, and healers don't spam heals....

[viktorserak]

I have no problem with evocation remaining as is. It is extremely weak IMO, because to fully take advantage of it, you'd run out of spell points super fast. But to each his own I guess.

I definitely prefer Shiradi for the efficiency and effectiveness it provides and would have preferred that pure evocation was more along those lines. But the consensus being that it's just fine, so be it...

Also, I really love how those opposed to Shiradi always use the word "Spam" in their arguments: as in "Spam mm, fm, cm..."
As though cc casters don't spam cc spells, monks don't spam fist swings, melee don't spam sword swings, archers don't spam arrows, and healers don't spam heals....

Hi Welcome

term "spam heals" is widely used on these forums, CC casting spams... less often, but as well. Monks, meeles and archers obviously dont spam. I just assume that english is not your prime language, so no biggie. I am not native english speaker as well and there will be a handfull of grammar errors in this post.

I read all the thread till this post.
You asked question. The question was answered multiple times and except for one or two ppl, everyone told you: yes, it is possible to make air savant work in EE.
People gave you multiple advices on how to prepare you enemies via electric evocation. Or via sonic evocation. Or via nonelectric evocation. Or via Conjuration, that costs next to nothing. Or via Necromancy. If you are unwilling to take at least some of these advices, then the problem is not your character - it is in you. You simply cannot treat EE and EH equally. No one does.
You were also given a video (the fact that you are unhappy with said person reentering shows to me, that you either never ran EE WGU and thus have no idea what are you talking about, or that you are simply unwilling to listen) of the hardest EE quest in the game soloed by air savant.

Only advice left here to say is:
Learn to use air savant in EE content (from this thread)
OR
Switch to different element - air is the harder to master
OR
Go Shiradi.

Air savant requires most skill ad brain.
Shiradi least. Shiradi is, in fact, not that much powerfull - it is just that much easier to learn, that why it is so popular.

[maximus123123123]

Air savant requires most skill ad brain.
Shiradi least. Shiradi is, in fact, not that much powerfull - it is just that much easier to learn, that why it is so popular.

Shiradi is popular because it works the way evocation ought to work. That is, it is effective while being efficient at the same time.
An Air Savant takes no more brains to play than a Shiradi, either can be played intelligently or with stupidity. The difference is, the smarter players go Shiradi because they realize how ineffectual any other kind of evocation is. But as I said, to each his own and if you prefer to be ineffectual or constantly drink pots, than enjoy...cheers !

[Xenaphon]

Shiradi is popular because it works the way evocation ought to work. That is, it is effective while being efficient at the same time.
An Air Savant takes no more brains to play than a Shiradi, either can be played intelligently or with stupidity. The difference is, the smarter players go Shiradi because they realize how ineffectual any other kind of evocation is. But as I said, to each his own and if you prefer to be ineffectual or constantly drink pots, than enjoy...cheers !
I have tried Shiradi and High DC (~60DC) Evoc Water Savant in EE quests and I prefer Draconic by far.
My SLA Cold ray does 1k to 2k damage for 2SP. It hits almost all the time. Frost lance has Fort save and does tons of damage. Real reason why you want high DC is for energy burst. I have seen it do 5 digit damage to everything around me.

Dragon breath, Enegry Burst.. then if anything is alive polar ray or cold ray. If you see one or two mobs... hit them with frost lance and cold ray... dead and dead.

When you run into cold immunes, RUIN and disintergrate

[viktorserak]

Shiradi is popular because it works the way evocation ought to work. That is, it is effective while being efficient at the same time.
An Air Savant takes no more brains to play than a Shiradi, either can be played intelligently or with stupidity. The difference is, the smarter players go Shiradi because they realize how ineffectual any other kind of evocation is. But as I said, to each his own and if you prefer to be ineffectual or constantly drink pots, than enjoy...cheers !

I completely disagree. Btw, my main is an Air savant right now :-)

Simple nuking without much thinking is the same as simple meeling by meeles. Because, lets face it, if I play meele, iI just wanna swing my big blade in their faces right? I dont want to cast healing spells onto myself as well! (cocoon).

If you are really thinking like that, then i completey agree, that the only way for you to complete harder EE quests, without DDO store, on sorc is to go shiradi.
Its simple and it doesnt require thinking That why it is so popular. Enjoy.

Or... learn. Most of the best material is right in this thread.

[maximus123123123]

As I said, if the consensus is that evocation casting is good EXACTLY as it is and needs no changes, then I'm all for that.
I won't be switching out of Shiradi with a FvS splash any time soon though unless it gets the nerf bat.

Although I've changed my position, I have not changed my opinion that evocation casting in DI would be far better if it were more along the lines of Shiradi. So, for example, giving the SLA's 1-2 second cooldowns instead of the current 5+ seconds and reducing the spell point cost to 0 or at most 1 or 2 spell points.

But apparently evocation is perfect as it is and needs absolutely no tweaking. I'm fine with that as I don't plan on switching back to one of them from Shiradi and will even continue playing my sorc so long as the only (IMO) viable evocation option remains unchanged.

[maximus123123123]

I would just add, however, that the very best players choose Shiradi casters with at least two lvls of FvS for a reason. At little to no cost you can use magic missiles and force missiles all day and dip into your spell pool occasionally for other things like buffs, recon, ice storms, etc.

This is the way (again IMHO) evocation casting should be.

[Catteras]

I think the op wants to know if you can achieve and maintain a great working dc with evocation spells without having to resort to debuffing everything first. At least that is what I'm understanding.

The OP doesn't want to "know" anything. He made up his mind before he every posted anything here. It doesn't matter how many helpful suggestions the community gives him, he'll always come back with the same old "but but but" lines.

Let the OP cry in the corner about his "electric" "air savant" sorc while the rest of us happily twist, debuff, and kill cr ap.

[maximus123123123]

The OP doesn't want to "know" anything. He made up his mind before he every posted anything here. It doesn't matter how many helpful suggestions the community gives him, he'll always come back with the same old "but but but" lines.

Let the OP cry in the corner about his "electric" "air savant" sorc while the rest of us happily twist, debuff, and kill cr ap.

Not sure how many different ways I can say I agree that evocation casting should NOT be changed. But you're right, it is still my opinion that it is borked up...

By the way, the answer to the question you posed in your signature is that you can continue collecting commendations of valor even after you've reached 28....but I guess some people would prefer to just sit around and cry in their little corner ;)

[DDOisFree]

Any wizard or sorc that wants to solely rely on a single elemental damage type isn't viable in this game. Lots of mobs have high resistances or immunities that nulify any build based on a single damage type. You need a secondary damage support, and force is the best for any primary elements because the missile spells bypass spell resistance, saves, and the multi hitting nature gives you a great chance to proc ED debuffs or additional damage.

Unless you can get up to 60+ evocation DCs, you cant expect to reliably bypass enemy saves on EE. As much as you might dislike shiradi, its there for a reason to make offensive casters viable in EE. Even if you want to stick to draconic, simply twisting in the mere Stay Frosty stan e onto any savant vastly improves your EE viability.

And don't forget that solid fog gives enemies -5 reflex saves, and there's a new necklace in the game that gives +5 evocation focus. Next you'll cry that you do t want to swap your current neck gear or something.

[PermaBanned]

I would just add, however, that the very best players choose Shiradi casters with at least two lvls of FvS for a reason. At little to no cost you can use magic missiles and force missiles all day and dip into your spell pool occasionally for other things like buffs, recon, ice storms, etc.

This is the way (again IMHO) evocation casting should be.
Are you deluded or intentionally obtuse? Evo casting "should be" (IMO ofc) about domination through delivery of massive damage. Max/Emp/Heightened Fireballs that barbecue things, Acid Blasts that melt things, Ice Storms that rain death and Lightning Bolts that leave the mobs twitching on the floor.

Shiradi "Missile Spamming" only works because of "proc fishing" on a few broken spells. Magic Missile is a single spell, but has proc opportunities as though it were ten. Same story for Force Missle, and there SLA versions. With the non-SLA versions Shiradi cast them without Max/Emp/Heighten - they aren't chasing large damage numbers (like a real Evoker would!) they are chasing procs of Nerve Venom and Rainbow/Double Rainbow effects. I assure you, if those spells were not broken, and a single cast of Magic Missile had only a single chance of a proc, both the effectiveness and popularity of Shiradi "Missile Spammers" would be greatly reduced.

[maximus123123123]

I assure you, if those spells were not broken, and a single cast of Magic Missile had only a single chance of a proc, both the effectiveness and popularity of Shiradi "Missile Spammers" would be greatly reduced.

Apparently the devs disagree. Shiradi is WAI.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that evocation SHOULD NOT BE CHANGED.
It is perfect as it is.

It is still my opinion that it is broken. The usual tactic is as follows: Blow all your mana on a 150k HP mob and then sit out the rest of the fight for fear of dipping into too many pots....but that's another story....

[myliftkk_v2]

It may be harsh but it sounds like that is what he wants, as he has ignored good advice over and over responding with basically "But I don't wanna". Only he's phrased "I don't wanna" in much more provocative passive aggressive way.

This...

OP please, I rolled 4200+ comms on a Air Savant, most all in EEs. I've zero issues running through EE. If the OP learns how to play a caster, with say 20+ useful spells in their spellbook, not just 3, maybe they'd do better. If all you can do is figure out how to cast 3 spells, why didn't you go barb?

[Grimborn]

I want to hear from someone that claims they have a viable EE capable Draconic Incarnation toon that does not need to guzzle a bunch of mana pots.

I believe evo based sorcs using, e.g., Air Savant electric spells (not Shiradi evo mind you) is not viable end game for EE questing.
Timkin from Kyhber says to reroll. He has no problem being an Air Savant. in Epic Elite.

[kelly171717]

im also on khyber and ive ever only been an air savant and i have no problem with any content period. I agree on the reroll sentiments

[Grimborn]

Here are three weapons you can use to help you out without pretending you're not an air savant:

Electric Surge is the first. That is the most direct counter to evading mobs, because it's long range, has no save, builds to massive damage and is extremely efficient. It benefits directly from your being an Air Savant. The drawbacks are that it's slow acting and single target, but as one of the greatest boss killer spells you should know this one anyway, and can resort to it whenever necessary to beat mobs with great saves.

Greater Shout is the second. Air savants get bonuses to sonic spells too, and while the damage on this spell is pretty low it is area of effect and targets the fortitude save, meaning that it can't be evaded. It will apply stacks of vulnerable from your savant core power, and if you can beat the targets' fortitude saves then it'll also daze them. More utility than nukage, but certainly an option when beset by pesky evaders. It doesn't cost much SP, either.

Prismatic Spray is the third. Prismatic Spray isn't exactly a lightning spell (though it can roll an electric result), but it's a tool that belongs to all evokers. It's somewhat random what sort of effect you'll get when you use it...you might get more wasted evades: but it can roll fortitude based effects, will based effects, and as long as you're using it on a large group of targets you've got a decent chance that something will stick. If you can reliably beat a monster's weaker save types with your evocation DC then this spell is excellent at thinning groups of evading mobs. If you can't then it doesn't help much.

Then there's save debuffing, as others have mentioned. This sure doesn't help the efficiency issue, but some of the spells you can use to this purpose are useful in their own right, so don't discount it completely. Solid Fog is very thematic for an air sorcerer and applies a hefty reflex save penalty (-5) without allowing the target any sort of roll to avoid it - no save, no SR check. It also slows those inside, helping to group them up for your nuke, and it grants a concealment miss chance that can't be negated by true seeing. It's a decent package of effects to help you drop a more effective chain lightning. Waves of Exhaustion is another option; it applies a -3 to reflex saves via exhaustion's dexterity reduction, it works on just about anything, lasts for absolutely ages, severely slows non-boss enemies, is area effect and allows no save. The downsides are that it's quite expensive to cast and requires a check against spell resistance.
Agreed with the above. You have to work at it.

[Grimborn]

Or maybe it is because I know how to play that I can see that evocation is seriously lacking.

Sure a pure evocation Sorc can outkill everything on the map while in Draconic Incarnation, but they will have to continually chug spell point pots to keep up. Therein is the problem and the reason Shiradi is the only way to go for those of us who cannot afford to use 20+ spell point pots per quest.
Maybe you have to chug pots. Not all Sorc's do this. Speak for yourself. Learn to build a better Sorc is all I can say. I have plenty of sp for the job.

[Jeremiah179]

Maybe you have to chug pots. Not all Sorc's do this. Speak for yourself. Learn to build a better Sorc is all I can say. I have plenty of sp for the job.

I am full time Draconic Air Savant.

I have no issues running out of spell points, in fact, if I know a shrine is coming I usually intentionally blow through my last 1500 or so for fun before I top off again...

I agree with others, you might not know what you think you know.