Iconics and the first level - any plans allow choice of first level without a LR?

[redoubt]

Thanks.

[Uska]

Not that I know of and I dont think there should be why you say? Keyword ICONIC!

[redoubt]

Not that I know of and I dont think there should be why you say? Keyword ICONIC!

It was a question, not meant to start an argument. Why would I ask? Because I don't want to spend a heart and then have to drop another 1195tp (or was it 1295) on a +1 heart just to get the build I want.

Iconics are just other races that start at level 15 instead of 1. That they force you to take a specific level of anything is the part that doesn't fit. (Please keep in mind that this is just the opinion of one person who hasn't placed D&D since it was AD&D and no, I never played wow either.)

Have a pleasant evening.

[Uska]

Not wanting a fight either :0 just stating my opinon for example the bladeforged is a paladin and as far as I know these are a ddo thing only I quit playing actual dnd after they brought out 4E and went to a different game altogether for my pnp needs. I just think since they are iconic they should be that way. Will I raise a protest against it if they decide to change, no as I dont really care if they do or not.

[redoubt]

Not wanting a fight either :0 just stating my opinon for example the bladeforged is a paladin and as far as I know these are a ddo thing only I quit playing actual dnd after they brought out 4E and went to a different game altogether for my pnp needs. I just think since they are iconic they should be that way. Will I raise a protest against it if they decide to change, no as I dont really care if they do or not.

Well, I had thought that too. The part about bladeforged is a paladin etc... but the more I looked at how the iconics are set up, they seem much more like a race than a class. I also thought they had said something about being able to turn down elminster and not be a paladin... but maybe that was only after level 1...?

Mostly, I'm hoping for some insight on the dev plans on this one. I would not mind a few PDK and shadar kai past lives and it would be a different quest set than the ones I've been doing, so that would be kinda cool. I can work the shadar kai ones, as my normal build always starts with rogue for level 1. I wanted to do a couple druid lives and PDK seems very much like human so that would work, but not for the pure caster build. But who am I kidding really? It will take me many many months to go through that many lives... ;)

My guildmates were talking about 4e a while back. Sounds like a whole new game...

[EllisDee37]

Not that I know of and I dont think there should be why you say? Keyword ICONIC!You can already remove it now with an LR+1.

[Golddragon87]

It is in Turbines best interest to not allow you to pick a class at level 1 on an Iconic. By offering a premium race in the form of an "iconic" they get revenue when the race is unlocked with more revenue when the Lesser Reincarnate is performed. From a purely business perspective they have no reason to want this changed. If there was enough community outcry they may consider it but as of right now most people seem content with the situation. It is unfortunate but it is the reality of the situation.

[waryJerry]

There's no reason for the original poster to be apologetic because I'm certain z lot of people feel the same way. Given that you can now get both your heroic past life feat plus another iconic post life feat (disappointingly incremental as it is), aren't most of us who are still working on our heroic completionist feat going to prefer doing it as an iconic than as a standard race? My guess is that more iconics are on the way, but at the moment taking the first class is a bother especially considering how many hearts Turbine wants us to grind out/go to the Turbine store and fork out money for. There should be a mechanic built into the iconic's creation process that allows us to choose the first life for ourselves. And, off the topic completely, with all these new past life feats, what about a racial past life feat? Perhaps we could be awarded this only once, it would be a relatively weak but worthwhile passive bonus, and there should also be a racial completionist feat (which would hopefully be granted automatically rather than having to take up a feat slot). What DDO, after all, has to offer as unique is the ability to slowly grow more powerful by leveling through a number of lifetimes. Make the most of it, Turbine.

[morkahn82]

Either make first level free to choose, or make the class-bound level obligatory without the possibility to exchange via hearts. The actual setting is just ridiculous and chicanery.

I do not even get the point why starting a character at level 15? Or why to sell already existing race/classes under new name with new visuals and a few minor changes for 1.5k tp? The whole iconic setting seems half-baked to me.

[Vellrad]

I would like to be able to start at any class as a lvl1 character, instead of 15.

[IronClan]

Oh good grief people, it's a game, you all realize that there are challenges and obstacles and hurdles and frictions, that are designed into EVERY GAME EVER MADE, for the purpose of there being a GAME to play in the game. This is no different... The fact that you're looking at it with a critical eye is soley the result of them charging real money for LR+1's (though they are available in the game for relatively little (1mil plat often enough)... It's no less or more of an arbitrary meta obstacle than the Boss that wipes the party in a raid.

You are whining about a meta issue, you are no more entitled to start an Iconic without the associated 1st level than you are to complete raids without stepping into the raid. Because: They designed it that way it's a game; the entire thing is fundamentally arbitrary with some rather hackneyed "tried and true" skinners boxes to keep you wanting to play. You can accept the skinners boxes, because you find most of them enjoyable or you can go find a more enjoyable set of skinners boxes.

They are all man made obstructions or challenges intended to get you to "game" be they a 1st level in Paladin or "you must at least step foot inside this quest to have a 1% chance at a raid item".

But you say "it's not the same a paladin level doesn't get anyone to "game" it's just arbitrary!" So is needing to step foot inside a quest to get a chance as anything it offers. If you think about it for a moment.

On the contrary Iconics having 15th level banked, and at least 1 level of their associated "iconic"class is exactly the same, it's a gaming "opportunity" with a "cost" in this case "I can get that nifty Recon SLA for my character but I either A) need to find a way to incorporate 1 or more Pali levels, or B) pay the cost to get an LR+1 to "game" the system and remove the Pali level.

Feeling entitled to not have to use a +1LR OR incorporate one or more Pali levels is just as wrong as feeling entitled to get XP or loot without ever stepping foot into a quest. They designed in the challenges, this one is no different than the others. I can't use a Dwarven axe without A) the exotic prof Dwarven Axe feat or B) using the race Dwarf... NO NO NO I WANT OPTION C) I get to use it: because I wanna! I shouldn't have to choose! I am entitled to use Dwarven Axes without either a feat or Dwarf race!. Nope... I'm not, it's a game and every distinction in it is part of the give and take of making choices (i.e. gaming)

Look at the hurdles in every game and you will find that games are basically just "playgrounds" that are designed with fake/Arbitrary/abstract/cliche/overused challenges that are hopefully intriguing/compelling/interesting/exciting enough to make you want to play that game.

If you want to game the system to get that sweet Recon SLA without being a mostly Paladin you'll need to pay the opportunity cost (incorporate 1 or 2 Pali levels) in your build, or pay the resource/cash cost (an in game +1LR or a store purchased one) to circumvent it completely.

[IronClan]

I would like to be able to start at any class as a lvl1 character, instead of 15.

This is an option I could see them allowing, giving up the 15 levels of banked XP as the opportunity cost of not needing a +1 LR to chose your first level. Because there's a give and take that way. However if you look at what an +1 LR costs compared to say an Bigby's box ...

[EllisDee37]

This is an option I could see them allowing, giving up the 15 levels of banked XP as the opportunity cost of not needing a +1 LR to chose your first level. Because there's a give and take that way.Agreed. Works for me.

[Chai]

Just make it so the first life iconic has to take the first level of the class tied to it and a TR into an iconic does not.

Of course the TR system is where they want to make the money on this, because the build enthusiasts want to combine the race abilities with a specific build they want to use which does not include the class normally tied to the iconic.

[MartinusWyllt]

I guess with the bladeforged specifically it is your god and creator telling you you're a 1st level paladin, so I guess I can get that...though you'd think said god might want some variation...or, say, favored souls of his own or casters or clerics.

I am of the opinion that this should be an option when TRing into an iconic, maybe even with the option to start at lvl 1, I suppose, but you can do that yourself by not accepting training and "earn" the autogranted xp.

[Gauthaag]

I guess my opinion will be minority one here, but imho the combination of class and race is what makes iconic iconic. Stripped of class - u should get regular warforged, elf, human and whatever shadarkai is.

Why should elf (or sun elf or whatever) get enhancements based on their religious belief, while regular elf not? whole racial trees of enhancement were designed based on particular class in mind.
I think it would be appropriate for iconic specific abilities from racial tree to have class lvl requirement.

[DrakHar]

I would prefer it to be unremovable, as well. However, I would prefer that it not need to be level 1.
For example, if I wanted to make my warchanter 16/2/2 or 15/3/2 PDK, which I think would be fun, I'd need to respec. Because fighter at level 1 SUCKS for skill points and my trapping, searching, and UMD will all suffer because of that on a build that can already be tight on skill points.

Also, sorc/paladin is great combo for a bladeforged - but taking bladeforged at one leaves me with no real good feat choices except toughness, which I was debating not even taking. I'd prefer that someone must have at least one level in "X" but that it does need to be level 1. If you want to be able to LR out of that all together, I guess that's fine, I just wish I could change the order without doing that (I won't, because it's a waste of a heart, so Turbine won't get money from me on that).
Really the only one I'd remove the level from all together might be the Sun Elf.
First of all, Sun Elves are usually wizards, nothing iconic about a Sun Elf cleric.. in fact, Sun Elves usually are not clerics. So I don't feel bad lorewise.

[Shorlong]

I've made plenty of iconics (about half of my 15 toons...I deleted plenty of my older toons knowing I would never play them until they got to around 15 or 16....this was perfect for me). I also spend a lot of money on stuff that I find fun...and buying a +1 heart for that much isn't fun for me. So, what I've been doing is incorporating that first level into everything. Bladeforged Juggernaut? Looked at that paladin monk build, doing something kinda similar. Sun elf Tempest Ranger? Awesome, I get a free super heal spell, some more positive SP, and an SLA I can use in tight situations. PDK Bard? Great, I would have probably put a level of fighter in anyway, and now I get Charisma for attacking, so I can dump strength. The only Iconic I have made so far that I am kind of "meh" on, is my Bladeforged monk. I wouldn't mind him being full monk...but, then again, I only made him so that he could be a monk while wearing the pre-order Bladeforged cosmetic with the wolverine claws. Just seemed so awesome. So, I'll just stick with it.

Anyway, I'm sure you can make it work, even if it means that you're going to take a small bump in what you originally wanted to do. A caster druid can still benefit from on level of fighter, just from feats alone.

[Grosbeak07]

This is an option I could see them allowing, giving up the 15 levels of banked XP as the opportunity cost of not needing a +1 LR to chose your first level. Because there's a give and take that way. However if you look at what an +1 LR costs compared to say an Bigby's box ...

I'm a fan of this.

[SilkofDrasnia]

It is in Turbines best interest to not allow you to pick a class at level 1 on an Iconic. By offering a premium race in the form of an "iconic" they get revenue when the race is unlocked with more revenue when the Lesser Reincarnate is performed. From a purely business perspective they have no reason to want this changed. If there was enough community outcry they may consider it but as of right now most people seem content with the situation. It is unfortunate but it is the reality of the situation.

Pretty much this, I am sure the plan was lets make getting hearts of wood very very annoying so people will buy them from the store and lets make sure people need to buy LR to then get rid of that first forced level choice that happens with iconics.

Say ty WB!

[IronClan]

Given that you can now get both your heroic past life feat plus another iconic post life feat (disappointingly incremental as it is), aren't most of us who are still working on our heroic completionist feat going to prefer doing it as an iconic than as a standard race?

This is a great tangent IMO, so whats more "efficient" doing your completionist 1 through 20 X 11 (or whatever it is) or doing them 15 through 28 via iconics?

Worthy of it's own thread. so I posted one here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/430513 please follow the link if you're going to reply.

[waryJerry]

It may be good business in some sense but is it really good business to bleed people? Or, rather, to be perceived as bleeding your customers? I think a lot of what they've done with resurrection is a good thing but it's also encouraging a huge amount of grinding or of just purchasing a number of different kinds of hearts from the online store by the customer. At what point does the average player say enough of this! Turbine is having a problem already with customer relations and if you don't think so you haven't read the forums in three or four months.

[redoubt]

Oh good grief people, it's a game, you all realize that there are challenges and obstacles and hurdles and frictions, that are designed into EVERY GAME EVER MADE, for the purpose of there being a GAME to play in the game. This is no different... The fact that you're looking at it with a critical eye is soley the result of them charging real money for LR+1's (though they are available in the game for relatively little (1mil plat often enough)... It's no less or more of an arbitrary meta obstacle than the Boss that wipes the party in a raid.

/snip

Oh good grief, you whined more in your reply than in all the posts above you combined.

I asked a question (mostly about IF the DEVs had any plans about it.) A few people commented on how they felt about it, which is cool too.

I have certain builds in mind and I would like to know if, in the future, those will be options without using an LR+1. Is that what constitutes whining now? Really?

I won't quit the game over it. Never said I would. I'll find a way to make builds I like and play them in content I like. Turbine has done a few things in the last year that I'm not a fan of, so I decided to cut my DDO spending down to only my vip sub cost. Yep, it means it takes me longer to level each life. No boxes, less xp pots etc.

I like your idea of spending plat on LR+1s. I'll have to look into that. Might help me try something new; while sticking to my current spending plan.