How To Tank

[AlfredTheTall]

I'm new to DDO and am interested in making a Pally Tank. I have seen lots of threads on tanking builds, but I wonder if anyone knows of an article or thread on the actual mechanics of tanking. For example, is there more to it than just running into a group of monsters, hit Intimidate, and then try to hit as many of them as possible? Is there a best practice for building threat, other than just attacking? Does holding up your shield do anything for your defense? Does attacking with your shield do anything more than attacking with your sword? Is Cleave a good feat to get?

Thanks for any advice you have.

[stoerm]

I'm new to DDO and am interested in making a Pally Tank.

Hi,

Take the time to listen to / watch this:

http://www.ddocast.com/2013/09/ddocast-306-build-a-tank/

Enjoy.

[Teh_Troll]

1. Get aggro.

2. Yell "HJEAL MEH!" repeatedly into your mic.

[Teh_Troll]

Hi,

Take the time to listen to / watch this:

http://www.ddocast.com/2013/09/ddocast-306-build-a-tank/

Enjoy.

I just did . . .

and honestly, these guys have no idea what they are talking about.

LOL - "My WF barbarian is soft of tankish"

Seriously . . . you have a guy who's highest "tank" level is 8 talking like he has ANY authority on the subject?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to rip on these guys as in general the DDOcast guys are pretty good but please ignore this video.

[Teh_Troll]

I'm new to DDO and am interested in making a Pally Tank.

Any subscriber to my threads knows how much I love paladins, I’ve played 5 lives of them including that of a 100 AC raid-tank back before the ENH pass and 100 AC actually meant something.

Pally is a good choice so have in a tank build but there are SO many advantages to multi-classing it’s not funny. In anything that I’d consider a “tank” I’d want at least 2 pally levels for Divine Grace. Saves are CRITICAL in this game in the higher levels. In EE FoT high saves can pretty much trivialize the Dracolich.



I have seen lots of threads on tanking builds, but I wonder if anyone knows of an article or thread on the actual mechanics of tanking.

It because quite frankly tanks are not needed in DDO at all anymore for all but 1 raid (EE LOB) that nobody even cares to run. Every other quest/raid in this game simply doesn’t require one. If you’re ever in a situation where you think you need a tank it means you haven’t come up with a better strategy yet.

I’m serious, the old raids are all a joke now with the level cap of 20. We have a rogue tank the Abishai in EE Chrono last night just because he had agro (only because I was out hunting for optionals, I swear . . .).



For example, is there more to it than just running into a group of monsters, hit Intimidate, and then try to hit as many of them as possible?

This is NOT a DPS-Tank-Heals game. Simply put in quests you should never ever need to do this.

With that said it can some times be useful. In EE CiTW my old Stalwart (with evasion) would intim ALL the trash in the optional and keep it busy while the rest of the party would dispatch the boss. It worked great . . . dance ball wasn’t reliable but intimdate got them every time.

But for standard questing you if you’re ever concerned about “tanking” you’re doing this wrong.



Is there a best practice for building threat, other than just attacking?

You MUST hit things to get threat. Intimidate give you more as it give you a buffer. Stance greatly increases this, as does Claw Set, Stalwart or DOS TOD set, and the Unyeilding Sentinel stance “Stand Against the Tide” . . . that gives you a ton of threat. Threat needs damage though so you have to be able to cause some damage to keep agro.

Back when we used to do LOB and the few EE LoBs before it became irrelevant .we would have a very high-threat guy rack up a bunch of threat and then hit Intimidate to steal his agro. The threat-magnet would then wait 5ish seconds and then start hitting again. Do it like that is you can block the entire time while holding agro. We don’t do this anymore as it simply isn’t needed anywhere.



Does holding up your shield do anything for your defense?

I assume you mean blocking, it increases your AC and gives you blocking DR

But . . .the Enhancement pass made armor and shield terrible. “Monk” based tanks are by far the best choice right now. Enough PRR to reach the point of diminished returns, 25% incorporeal, no dodge-cap from armor, able to do a lot more damage as well. Seriously, Turbine’s disgusting love of monks has gimped any non-monk tank to the point of them not being relevant.

And to make things worse we have the ridiculously stupid “must have a shield” nonsense to get the stance benefits for those times when holding a shield aint’ needed. I don’t need a friggin shield to fight Lolth . . . why the hell did you nerf the stance?

Best tank I’ve seen in action is a Pally 8/Ranger 6/Monk 6. Like 1200-1300 HP, was able to break 180 AC in tests, bunch of PRR, etc. Saves up the wazoo (literally, it said that on his character sheet), 110+ intimidate, all the bells and whistles. We use him on EE FoT and he trivializes it. For the reaver in EE we use a Tempest Ranger or a Monk with a bunch of displacement clickies.

I’m not joking and I’m kinda bitter about how much they gimped Armor and Shield tanks. But we have to deal with the realities of the cards Turbine deals to us.



Does attacking with your shield do anything more than attacking with your sword? Is Cleave a good feat to get?

Absolutely take the cleaves as they works great with Sword-n-board. It’s just that S&B are absolutely terrible right now.



Thanks for any advice you have.

It’s not free. I’m PM you my PayPal information.

Some simple tips . ..

- You must be able to hold agro. You need very good threat and decent damage. You need to farm the gear that amplifies this. If you canot hold agro it is YOUR fault and the DPS are allowed to make fun of you.
- You need as much damage avoidance as possible. AC is useless, it doesn’t do anything in anything difficult and the threshold of it working in easy content is so low it’s not worth investing in. PRR, Dodge, incorporeal FTW.
- For the love of all that is holy invest in healing amp!!!!! There is nothing that screams “noob idiot” more than a 1300 HP “tank” with zero healing amp. Get as much as you can, end of discussion.
- Have a DPS option for when you are leveling. Leveling as a “tank” is just useless.

[Enoach]

First a foremost the important part of "tanking" is know when to tank and when not to tank.

There are feats that improve how a shield works for you both Defensively (Shield mastery/Deflection) and offensively (Shield Bash)

Shields come in different styles and abilities look for these and consider them similar to an offhand weapon.

Next, never agro more than you can control - This means that you need to be able to survive it. If you are taking more damage then what can be restored you will lose the attrition game.

Goal of Tanking is to use less resources than it would take if the entire party was taking damage.

Look to PRR and Miss Chances like Dodge, Blur/Displacement and Incorporeal as ways to reduce damage

[HastyPudding]

What about building for doublestrike with a shield? Take the old 18 paladin/2 fighter build. The Sentinel destiny, along with stalwat/defender enhancements and various offensive/defensive shield feats (and now with epic destiny feats), you could reach a very high doublestrike rate. Add in shield bashing procs, white dragon fullplate/helmet, and a good bastard sword/dwarven axe (looking at you, Nightmare), it sounds interesting: above average AC, high PRR, paladin's saves, and a high doublestrike.

I have a feeling that it looks better on paper, but I've seen a lot of good players making them, so it can't be horrible. I saw a level 28 palifighter in CITW the other day with a S&B build and he was tearing stuff apart. It's not top notch dps, but you have great survivability, self healing, and it is a more useful build than the traditional S&B tank that has next to no dps and a very tiny niche to fill. I think it'd be great to satisfy the 'flavor' for people who like shield builds.

[kned225]

If you're new to the game i wouldn't worry about tanking EE fot

You're probably wanting to build a tank cuz you have the image of the heavily armored shield carrying badass tincan in your head, not some blurry pyjama wearing dude

Dont be afraid to go full tincan first life. The game provides enough tools for these guys to hold aggro and survive in 99% of the situations you'll come across as a new player

[Teh_Troll]

If you're new to the game i wouldn't worry about tanking EE fot

You're probably wanting to build a tank cuz you have the image of the heavily armored shield carrying badass tincan in your head, not some blurry pyjama wearing dude

Dont be afraid to go full tincan first life. The game provides enough tools for these guys to hold aggro and survive in 99% of the situations you'll come across as a new player

I'm sorry but advising a new player to build a tank in the current DDO is just plain bad advise.

Yeah, they won't be worrying about EE FOT or EE LOB . . . but tell me when at all said tank would be useful?

[kned225]

I'm sorry but advising a new player to build a tank in the current DDO is just plain bad advise.

Yeah, they won't be worrying about EE FOT or EE LOB . . . but tell me when at all said tank would be useful?

If you're pugging, i agree...its ****. U cant kill fast enough to keep up and nobody needs a tank

If he's in a static grp with a few friends who are also new and they wanna have fun with more traditional roles, let them have their fun. To that grp, he might be useful. Lets not forget, there are lots of these players out there

I think its a bit hasty to tell new players that tanks are just **** without understanding what their goals are

[Ralmeth]

I'm sorry but advising a new player to build a tank in the current DDO is just plain bad advise.

Yeah, they won't be worrying about EE FOT or EE LOB . . . but tell me when at all said tank would be useful?

From the perspective of a power gamer who plays the game a LOT...For the typical player / PUG, a well built and played tank can be useful if they include a good amount of DPS in their build.

[Uska]

Bah my bard is a better tank than anything else here I'll show you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0YC3RpvE3M

[Lonnbeimnech]

Don't make a tank. Make a dps that can heal himself.

[unbongwah]

The DDO powergamers will tell you that tanks are unnecessary. So are healers, trappers, bards, most full-time archers (special exception granted from monkchers), and a little category I call "almost everything else." To the powergamer, if you're not playing one of a select handful of max-DPS self-healing builds with tons of survivability & self-sufficiency, then you are Doing It Wrong(tm).

This is due largely to the fact that powergamers only build for EEs, which are the Bizarro Mirror Universe DDO, where all the conventional rules of playing have been turned on their ear. Also, everyone sports a goatee, even the hawt chicks, because evil.

So, if you want to be a powergamer yourself someday, you should definitely heed their advice, give up on playing a classic tank, and look for one of the aforementioned "sanctioned" builds. All aboard the TR Train!

OTOH, if you just want to play a S&B pally (b/c it's your favorite PnP character or whatever) who doesn't embarrass themselves in a fight, let's see what we can do to help. :)

[Teh_Troll]

From the perspective of a power gamer who plays the game a LOT...For the typical player / PUG, a well built and played tank can be useful if they include a good amount of DPS in their build.

Where? Where can it be more useful than any other option that isn't ridiculous like a con-based thrower build?

[Teh_Troll]

The DDO powergamers will tell you that tanks are unnecessary. So are healers, trappers, bards, most full-time archers (special exception granted from monkchers), and a little category I call "almost everything else." To the powergamer, if you're not playing one of a select handful of max-DPS self-healing builds with tons of survivability & self-sufficiency, then you are Doing It Wrong(tm).

This is due largely to the fact that powergamers only build for EEs, which are the Bizarro Mirror Universe DDO, where all the conventional rules of playing have been turned on their ear. Also, everyone sports a goatee, even the hawt chicks, because evil.

So, if you want to be a powergamer yourself someday, you should definitely heed their advice, give up on playing a classic tank, and look for one of the aforementioned "sanctioned" builds. All aboard the TR Train!

OTOH, if you just want to play a S&B pally (b/c it's your favorite PnP character or whatever) who doesn't embarrass themselves in a fight, let's see what we can do to help. :)


Sorry . . . but EH and easier content does not reach the difficulty level of having to build anything special for any role.

[voodoogroves]

Where? Where can it be more useful than any other option that isn't ridiculous like a con-based thrower build?

I totally want to build one of these now.

[unbongwah]

Sorry . . . but EH and easier content does not reach the difficulty level of having to build anything special for any role.
In which case, people are free to build what they want (within reason), rather than what's deemed optimal. Sure, maybe it takes them longer to finish quests and they don't top the kill counts like the minmaxers; but if the vast majority of DDO is so easy, then as long as they don't cause a party wipe or spend the whole run as soulstones, who cares? Plenty of ways to fix a "gimpy" build thru LRs/TRs, gear, EDs, etc. if/when someone wants to do that.

[kned225]

Sorry . . . but EH and easier content does not reach the difficulty level of having to build anything special for any role.

The mistake you're making is assuming everyones ultimate goal in this game is the same as yours...to be the BEST. To trivialize the games hardest content. That may be the only goal in many games but its not the case in ddo

Its a D&D game. People have romantic attachments to certain classes, races, images. They dont play certain classes or combos because they HAVE to...to be the BEST, to get the BEST loot and be the next uberboi of the server. They play them because they think they're cool

[Teh_Troll]

In which case, people are free to build what they want (within reason), rather than what's deemed optimal. Sure, maybe it takes them longer to finish quests and they don't top the kill counts like the minmaxers; but if the vast majority of DDO is so easy, then as long as they don't cause a party wipe or spend the whole run as soulstones, who cares? Plenty of ways to fix a "gimpy" build thru LRs/TRs, gear, EDs, etc. if/when someone wants to do that.

But you will eventually grow out of EH and lower and want something more. It's evolution, you'll eventually get good enough and equipped enough and want to do more. Raiding, EEs, etc . . .

I'm sorry, advising people to build toons that they'll eventually have to LR/TR out of to be effective when they reach that point is bad advise.

[ReaperAlexEU]

Where? Where can it be more useful than any other option that isn't ridiculous like a con-based thrower build?

in that train wreck that's where. any decent vet should be able to save a train wreck on just about any build they happen to be messing with at the time. but newbies in a train wreck together have a slim chance of pulling out of it. a newbie with a tank however could just save the day.

and drop the "best" stuff, focus on "viable" instead, a newbie needs a viable build not a EE ready build. this is the realm that is heavily saturated in flavour builds where the newbies come to learn about the fun of DDO not the challenging EE end game for when they have been there and done that.

what does it matter that one guy is on a S&B tank in a heroic normal quest when he could be playing something better? chances are he's next to a CON dumped elven ranger called leggofmyleglass, a cleric that doesn't know he has AoE CC spells and a rogue that is scared to wade into the fight. that is the game we are talking about, not the TR train back to epics where full DPS and a few pots between fights trivialises heroic elite, but heroic normal and hard actually killing players who don't know what's coming next. in that game a tank really can be fun to play, and handy to have on your side too.

[Teh_Troll]

The mistake you're making is assuming everyones ultimate goal in this game is the same as yours...to be the BEST. To trivialize the games hardest content. That may be the only goal in many games but its not the case in ddo

You're mistaken, my goal is to pike with the best. Being the best is just too much work. Piking more fits my playstyle.

And a S&B paladin is too much piking even for me.



Its a D&D game. People have romantic attachments to certain classes, races, images. They dont play certain classes or combos because they HAVE to...to be the BEST, to get the BEST loot and be the next uberboi of the server. They play them because they think they're cool

If you don't get bored and leave you will eventually have to make something viable for end-game unless you just perma-TR.

I've played flavor builds, none of my toons are FoTM. I understands attachments to something you read in a fantasy novel or played in PnP. But when people come to the forums and as for advise it's reasonable to assume they are looking for advise on how to be useful in the current game.

Step 1 on that . . . don't be a S&B melee.

[Teh_Troll]

Why don't we ask the OP . . .

Mr. OP . . . what are your goals with this character?

[unbongwah]

But you will eventually grow out of EH and lower and want something more. It's evolution, you'll eventually get good enough and equipped enough and want to do more. Raiding, EEs, etc . . .
Not everybody raids; not everybody runs EEs; not everybody rides the TR Train ad nauseum; not everybody has the same goals you do. I realize that's crazy-talk in some quarters, but DDO is big enough to accommodate the crazies; I'm living proof of that. :p I've been playing off & on for four years now; I don't have the time nor inclination to do a lot of raiding, I don't enjoy the TR grind, and I don't care if my characters are "EE-worthy," though I do try to ensure they don't embarrass themselves. My DDO experience is not the same as your DDO experience; and fortunately, that's okay as long as we're both having fun. :)

I'm sorry, advising people to build toons that they'll eventually have to LR/TR out of to be effective when they reach that point is bad advise.
So is telling newbies they can only build toons capable of running content they may not reach for months and might not enjoy once they get there (IMHO).

I already told the OP if he wants to be a powergamer, he should heed the powergamers' advice. If their goals are somewhat different, though, then there's a lot more room for variety just for fun.

[kned225]

what does it matter that one guy is on a S&B tank in a heroic normal quest when he could be playing something better? chances are he's next to a CON dumped elven ranger called leggofmyleglass, a cleric that doesn't know he has AoE CC spells and a rogue that is scared to wade into the fight. that is the game we are talking about, not the TR train back to epics where full DPS and a few pots between fights trivialises heroic elite, but heroic normal and hard actually killing players who don't know what's coming next. in that game a tank really can be fun to play, and handy to have on your side too.

This is dead on. And a part of the game a lot of vets seem to forget.

Long-time players evolve, the hardcore ones who can put in the endless hours it takes to get to the point you wanna tackle ee endgame. A lot of others never do...id bet MOST others never do. Its not a priority for them.

This game has a sizable population of players who never worry about that nonsense and just spend a couple hours on a sunday having a few laughs with friends. Not complaining that the game is boring or too easy, they're just having fun

[ReaperAlexEU]

Why don't we ask the OP . . .

Mr. OP . . . what are your goals with this character?

****it jim, you're a troll, stop being so bleeding sensible! :p

[kned225]

Why don't we ask the OP . . .

Mr. OP . . . what are your goals with this character?

Theres no way hes still around. After reading all this hes probably decided everyone in this game is nuts and hes off to a more reasonable game where responders just tell you to go **** yourself when u ask a question, not ponder lifes mysteries

After all, he was really only asking whether he could spam the intim button

[Teh_Troll]

So is telling newbies they can only build toons capable of running content they may not reach for months and might not enjoy once they get there (IMHO).

it's better to crush their dreams now than after 6-12 months of heading down a dead-end path.

Heck, even if tanks were in high demand do you really think recommending somebody start as one is a good idea? When I built mine (both of which, one Stalwart and one DoS, are no longer tanks) they were leveled and geared as offensive builds. It's just the smarter way to go about things.

I'm sorry, it is best to set the record straight when people ask about this stuff.

[Ralmeth]

But you will eventually grow out of EH and lower and want something more. It's evolution, you'll eventually get good enough and equipped enough and want to do more. Raiding, EEs, etc . . .

I'm sorry, advising people to build toons that they'll eventually have to LR/TR out of to be effective when they reach that point is bad advise.

This is where you are wrong, and is the perspective of a power gamer that MUST beat the game. I have been playing DDO since it almost first came out and I have no interest in, nor will ever have the free time for building up a character for epic elite play. I've tried it and found the game play is just kind of dumb, with mobs having too many hit points. Fun game play to me is having an optimal window in the number of swings / attacks it takes to kill an enemy. Feeling like you have to chop down a tree against every opponent is just not fun, IMHO (which is why people playing EEs build for uber DPS, to bring the number of swings required to kill a mob down to a more reasonable level). I'm good with heroic elite and epic hard. I just want to play the game to have fun, and I would surmise that the majority of DDO players are in the same boat.

So your question is very valid, for what content does the OP want to build their character for? If they want to make the most powerful character that is uber in epic elites, then I totally recommend they listen to the advice of people that play EEs. However if someone is a typical player, then learning how to tank can be very useful because that's the game they are going to be playing.

It's a matter of perspective.

[Ralmeth]

it's better to crush their dreams now than after 6-12 months of heading down a dead-end path.

Heck, even if tanks were in high demand do you really think recommending somebody start as one is a good idea? When I built mine (both of which, one Stalwart and one DoS, are no longer tanks) they were leveled and geared as offensive builds. It's just the smarter way to go about things.

I'm sorry, it is best to set the record straight when people ask about this stuff.

If they are in the minority and are a power gamer that wants to play EE, then it makes sense to warn them. I hate in DDO that sometimes what works at lower levels no longer works at higher levels. I've learned that lesson the hard way. However from the perspective of someone who plays a Paladin tank through heroic elites and epic hards, building a Paladin tank is a very viable character, and can be a very useful party member. I quite often lead PUGs and always get comments at the end of, "wow that was a great party", "that was really smooth", etc, because if you play your character right a Pally tank can be the gel that holds the group together, even when things get really rough.

[Ralmeth]

The DDO powergamers will tell you that tanks are unnecessary. So are healers, trappers, bards, most full-time archers (special exception granted from monkchers), and a little category I call "almost everything else." To the powergamer, if you're not playing one of a select handful of max-DPS self-healing builds with tons of survivability & self-sufficiency, then you are Doing It Wrong(tm).

This is due largely to the fact that powergamers only build for EEs, which are the Bizarro Mirror Universe DDO, where all the conventional rules of playing have been turned on their ear. Also, everyone sports a goatee, even the hawt chicks, because evil.

So, if you want to be a powergamer yourself someday, you should definitely heed their advice, give up on playing a classic tank, and look for one of the aforementioned "sanctioned" builds. All aboard the TR Train!

OTOH, if you just want to play a S&B pally (b/c it's your favorite PnP character or whatever) who doesn't embarrass themselves in a fight, let's see what we can do to help. :)

/Like

[Inoukchuk]

But you will eventually grow out of EH and lower and want something more. It's evolution, you'll eventually get good enough and equipped enough and want to do more. Raiding, EEs, etc . . .

I'm sorry, advising people to build toons that they'll eventually have to LR/TR out of to be effective when they reach that point is bad advise.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Building your favorite flavor build first is a great learning experience and when you're ready for the evolution to "end game" or EEs then you should take what you've learned and TR. You'll want the build pts and past life anyway, and it's fun to go back and see just how much easier the stuff you struggled with first life is. The fact that the OP is here getting (any) advice puts him ahead of 95% of new players.

[Teh_Troll]

. . .building a Paladin tank is a very viable character . . .

No, it is not.

This is bad advise to new players.

[Teh_Troll]

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Building your favorite flavor build first is a great learning experience and when you're ready for the evolution to "end game" or EEs then you should take what you've learned and TR. You'll want the build pts and past life anyway, and it's fun to go back and see just how much easier the stuff you struggled with first life is. The fact that the OP is here getting (any) advice puts him ahead of 95% of new players.

My first toon was a flavor build, you know what I learned?

Flavor builds suck.

[ReaperAlexEU]

My first toon was a flavor build, you know what I learned?

Flavor builds suck.

if you make them bubblegum flavoured then they chew

[ReaperAlexEU]

anyway, the important part here is it all depends on what the OP is aiming for with regards to end game. if its to TR or to run EN/EH then a paly tank can work (might not shine, but it will work). if they are gunning for EE then yeah, i'd also advise against it.

so arguing over what advice is right is largely moot until the OP chimes in with their aims

[Teh_Troll]

anyway, the important part here is it all depends on what the OP is aiming for with regards to end game. if its to TR or to run EN/EH then a paly tank can work (might not shine, but it will work). if they are gunning for EE then yeah, i'd also advise against it.

Translation: pally tanks can work fine in content so easy it doesn't matter what you are playing.



so arguing over what advice is right is largely moot until the OP chimes in with their aims

Come on, this whole forum is moot. Since when has that stopped us?

[Enoach]

I play a S&B Paladin Tank (Currently Level 28 all ED's at level 5, only 3 ED's not MAX)

I would agree with teh_troll that a First Live Paladin Tank is like rolling a 2 ton bolder up a steep Greased slop. I would not recommend that path until gear is available.

I regularly EE quests Solo, Duo and with Parties. But I don't depend on my AC to get me through it. UMD and GS Clickies are my bread and butter.

[ReaperAlexEU]

Translation: pally tanks can work fine in content so easy it doesn't matter what you are playing.
hehe, didn't we already cover this point earlier? like when the paly tank is fighting alongside the CON dumped drow ranger called xoxDrizztLovesYouxox, the wizard that doesn't know how to jump cast called GandalfTheSkyBluePinkWithPurpleSpots and a 6 STR halfling mechanic. so no, it really doesn't matter at that point, which now extends into EN and EH. thats why flavour builds are just fine if you're not planning to hit the epic elites.


Come on, this whole forum is moot. Since when has that stopped us?

this forum serves a very important purpose, it's the only place you get hjeels :p

[Jeremiah179]

This whole thread reminds me of a person asking how to make Plat.

Answer One: Long description of valuable collectables and items, spending a dollar to be vet to post more auction house items etc.

Answer Two: Just level up and don't worry about money - at level 20 you have plat up the whahzoo.

New Answer Two: Plat don't matter no more, they ruined game with ASAH.

In this scenario you could argue forever about each answer and split on opinions...


My advise to every player - have fun, and try not to get caught up in what others are telling you is fun. You could play this game as a single player non-mmoish type game and have loads of fun for a very long time.

If fun means running with the best, listen to the best, join a guild, build one character and make it viable, then grow from there...

If fun means collecting mushrooms to sell on AH as a level 5 ranger named zzzDriztzzz (I actually do not know the spelling! lol) Then do not worry about it...just have fun.


This game really has a lot to offer a very wide range of people looking for something to do... and actually the game is only the most broken for end-gamer elite... they are the ones with a broken end game and less to do as they await U20 and hope to be interested again. Unfortunately, they will defeat everything in U20 in a couple weeks and be bored again, in a month or two some crazy person on some server somewhere will be the first to max out all of the available Epic Past Lives or whatever they are called.

When I started a couple years ago, I knew I was very late to the party. I purposely played for almost the first year solo, not out of preference really, but because I wanted to enjoy what the masses would call boring first... then I could join the veterans and grind into oblivion, I did not want to skip what they got to enjoy 2-3 times. The game has a ton to offer a new first life player if they stay away from the TR train 1-20 in a week group.

Just my opinion.

[HungarianRhapsody]

How to tank, a lesson in 3 parts

Part the first: Be a Ranger or a Monk (or both).

Part the second: Get out your bow and engage the multi-shot (note - this is different than multi-pass, even though both are fun to say in Leelo's accent from the 5th Element). Get the enemy's aggro (i.e. his attention will be focused on you because you will have done more damage to it than anyone else since you can shoot it before the melee get in range and because you're shooting several arrows per attack).

Part the third: Run away from the melee types in large, looping circles in order to keep them from engaging with the target. This will prevent them from taking damage since they will be chasing the enemy and attacking from behind and as long as you stay out of your target's melee range, you will also take minimal damage from the enemy that you are tanking. Plus, this has an extra benefit for all of the melee characters in the party who get to enjoy the extra challenge of hitting that moving target. Since so many quests in DDO are so very easy, players will enjoy and appreciate that extra challenge.

[ReaperAlexEU]

How to tank, a lesson in 3 parts

Part the first: Be a Ranger or a Monk (or both).

Part the second: Get out your bow and engage the multi-shot (note - this is different than multi-pass, even though both are fun to say in Leelo's accent from the 5th Element). Get the enemy's aggro (i.e. his attention will be focused on you because you will have done more damage to it than anyone else since you can shoot it before the melee get in range and because you're shooting several arrows per attack).

Part the third: Run away from the melee types in large, looping circles in order to keep them from engaging with the target. This will prevent them from taking damage since they will be chasing the enemy and attacking from behind and as long as you stay out of your target's melee range, you will also take minimal damage from the enemy that you are tanking. Plus, this has an extra benefit for all of the melee characters in the party who get to enjoy the extra challenge of hitting that moving target. Since so many quests in DDO are so very easy, players will enjoy and appreciate that extra challenge.

if you do this correctly you can extend a trivial fight to last exactly 2 minutes, thus giving the party more bang for the buck and leaving you ready to manyshot the next group of mobs!

[Ralmeth]

No, it is not.

This is bad advise to new players.

Actually, the first question when a new player asks for advice is what content do they aspire to play? If they want to get to end game and beat epic elites, then I agree that a Paladin tank is not the right type of character to build. If I had the time / wanted to play epic elites I would TR my Pally tank into a Fighter based character, probably based around Cetus' build, or I'd play my sorc. However, if a new player just wants to play and doesn't care about epic elites, then it's bad advice to tell them not to play a type of character they would enjoy.

[avepepix]

it's better to crush their dreams now than after 6-12 months of heading down a dead-end path.

Heck, even if tanks were in high demand do you really think recommending somebody start as one is a good idea? When I built mine (both of which, one Stalwart and one DoS, are no longer tanks) they were leveled and geared as offensive builds. It's just the smarter way to go about things.

I'm sorry, it is best to set the record straight when people ask about this stuff.

Well its about perspective, I have a First life, Dwarf, Stalwart Def, lvl 25 now, and he is all the bad thinks you said about thanks.
Its true that you can get bored. But no for the class, you get bored of the game if nobody wants to play with you that bored quests where is the stuff you need.
For ex. 95% of the people want the SOS and im a dwarf, a bad tempered one, hard head, screaming and insulting, like if i was in pnp. So for what i want the sos? For nothing. But for me is fun haven 132 ac, 1302 hp. Press 1 to intimidate all the folks that walks around me.
Hit the shift to rise my PRR and see and laught of his futiles intents of killing me.

If you want a tank there`s some things you have to know.
NOT everyone has to play with a thank besides him, they will run, they will hit and the will die, and you will see all that and cant do nothing about it. Like a tank you cant run (maybe you can) but then a ranger scream MANYSHOOT and then you loose the AGRO and have to run and intimidate again.
Or with undead, they dont will wait you to get the agro, so you try to intimidate but you cant, and then again you will see how the skeleton kill your party.

You can chose AC or Hit points or Saves.
You cant full all. if in your plans you cant get more than 150 AC forget AC. They allways will hit you.
You can say, ok I leave the AC to other givme life!!! . I have 1300 and i can die easily... so dont think that you can live only for have 1500 hit points.
The saves can evite you fall in a spell... But they cant cast you enervation and you cant loose 15 lvls soo...
Dont matter what path you choose. The perfect tank dont exist. Allways can be a quest, a enemy that can kill you. So, get fun!! Its the only thing that really matters.

For example my simple first life dwarf fighter tank. I really enjoy playing with him, he its not a power character, It was the first character i made when enter the game, he hasent the best equip. But its really fun for me trying to save the life of the rest of the party.

[elraido]

it's better to crush their dreams now than after 6-12 months of heading down a dead-end path.

Heck, even if tanks were in high demand do you really think recommending somebody start as one is a good idea? When I built mine (both of which, one Stalwart and one DoS, are no longer tanks) they were leveled and geared as offensive builds. It's just the smarter way to go about things.

I'm sorry, it is best to set the record straight when people ask about this stuff.

6-12 months on a dead end path? That all? My first toon 7 years ago was a S&B Paladin tank. He is basically the only one I play on a regular basis to this day.

Let people play what they want to play. Obviously I enjoy my tank...even if they are a dead end. It is your opinion. Besides, if it means they can take a horrible build and play the game just fine...does that mean they are a better player than you?

[avepepix]

6-12 months on a dead end path? That all? My first toon 7 years ago was a S&B Paladin tank. He is basically the only one I play on a regular basis to this day.

Let people play what they want to play. Obviously I enjoy my tank...even if they are a dead end. It is your opinion. Besides, if it means they can take a horrible build and play the game just fine...does that mean they are a better player than you?

Its true that its a dead end. We have fun with yours tanks, but out there are betters end game choises.
Basicaly to tank you have to generate threat, Then you need AC or HP.

I know that today basicaly you can tank with a wizard, but he wants a paladin. so, he must think his better ways to get fun.

Like i say in my partys, Im the tank, Im poor DPS, Im not a killer... i make the suffer and killing him slowly muahahahaha

[Teh_Troll]

6-12 months on a dead end path? That all? My first toon 7 years ago was a S&B Paladin tank. He is basically the only one I play on a regular basis to this day.

Some people learn things faster than others.

Just sayin . . .

[maddmatt70]

Not really sure even what future the S&B tank has now even as a tank with epic reincarnation giving so many defensive benefits and the way armor class, physical resistance, and dodge works. Since the more physical resistance and armor class that you have the more damage a character avoids or reduces up until a point where adding more basically will not improve the rating the key is really getting to the threshold where adding more PR or AC does not benefit a tank much if at all. Now a lot of builds can reach those thresholds. S&B are limited in how much dodge they can get whereas monks, arcanes, and light armor wearers are not. What this all means is a shiradi wizard or sorc for e.g. can have the same PRR and AC as a S&B tank with more dodge, dps and mobility.

[Teh_Troll]

Not really sure even what future the S&B tank has now even as a tank with epic reincarnation giving so many defensive benefits and the way armor class, physical resistance, and dodge works. Since the more physical resistance and armor class that you have the more damage a character avoids or reduces up until a point where adding more basically will not improve the rating the key is really getting to the threshold where adding more PR or AC does not benefit a tank much if at all. S&B are limited in how much dodge they can get whereas monks, arcanes, and light armor wearers are not. A shiradi wizard or sorc will have the same PRR and AC as a S&B tank with more dodge, dps and mobility.

With 9 Martial PLs we should see people routinely breaking 220 AC . . . I wonder if that'll work on EE bosses?

[maddmatt70]

With 9 Martial PLs we should see people routinely breaking 220 AC . . . I wonder if that'll work on EE bosses?

Well my update 19 shortsword unarmored tank build should hit about 200 ac. I am going to try to level him up and then tr a bunch that is if I enjoy epic trring. Not sure I will be able to manage epic trring because I am not sure I can handle doing any lives on epic hard. I have a feeling the whole game is going to be epic hard soon enough and just can not take that.

[bsquishwizzy]

Ok, so I’m reading this, and I have a second-life S&B pure pally tank.

First, I’m going to say that The_Troll is right about pure tanks. Pure pally, almost pure SD (also took some ranks in KotC and Human tree) is substandard as a pure tank, especially in EE. The problem is that I can rack up PRR, Healing Amp, and bump my AC but you run smack-dab into threat generation and intim because you are not dealing enough damage to keep the mob’s attention and aggro. It is extremely frustrating. The second issue is that you need a buttload of dodge / incorp / displacement and all that jazz to avoid damage, because you are getting mauled with inferior AC and PRR, even with a shield. So now you’re going down the farm trail to get equipment to compensate. So you lose on getting aggro, keeping it, and staying alive while the boss is focused on you. Without gear to compensate for the deficiencies, there is NO FRICKIN’ WAY I could tank a boss - any boss – on EE. I have some difficulties on EH as is.

Note, I am not running with gear that is total ****. I’d say I’m solidly in the middle between random loot equipment, and optimal.

Is my build useless? No. I routinely stay in the fight longer than other players at my same level – he is very hard to kill. My DPS is not great, but that can be compensated for with specialty weapons. Self-heals, the ability to take quite a bit of damage while I rez other players, and similar things makes him a utility player in a lot of aspects. And yes, I can run him in EE content at level in this manner, and be effective. But as a full-out tank, I’d lose aggro about 3 milliseconds after real DPS starts wailing on the boss, DR running or no.

It seems a shame that a build meant to be the king of aggro is actually more like the stable boy of aggro.

[DrNuegebauer]

The main problem with what teh_troll is saying in this thread can be summed up in one word.

Advice.

It's spelt with a c, not an s.

Apart from that, he's spot on. The original poster should not build a "tank". There is simply no need for one in DDO. And, if you DO decide to build one, please do everyone else a favour and don't waste their time by hitting LFMs.

[Teh_Troll]

First, I’m going to say that The_Troll is right . . .

You could have stopped there :)