antipode or dual celestias

[Scrag]

So, I am a drow ninjaspy pure monk, with all 8 points in drow shortsword/shuriken/whatever +1/+1 bonuses, and 41 points in ninjaspy, giving me the vorpal with slashing/piercing weapons. Is there any reason at all why I should not go with dual celestias?

Also, should I go with Legendary Dreadnaught, or work my way over to fury, or go with flowers?

[TeacherSyn]

So, I am a drow ninjaspy pure monk, with all 8 points in drow shortsword/shuriken/whatever +1/+1 bonuses, and 41 points in ninjaspy, giving me the vorpal with slashing/piercing weapons. Is there any reason at all why I should not go with dual celestias?

Also, should I go with Legendary Dreadnaught, or work my way over to fury, or go with flowers?

You are full of Vorpal happiness.

If you are fortunate enough to find one, much less two Celestia shortswords, do try them out. They should dish out much destruction to anything that doesn't require a metal-type DR bypass. That is, anything short of a Pit Fiend should take a big ouchie from them, especially with the poison DoTs. I know that other threads have noted that certain stats claimed for Ninja Spy aren't fully working, but what is working kills quite efficiently.

When using true weaponry, LD is a strong option for more damage and speed for more damage. You can use the Volcano's Edge ability for extra damage and the ED qualifies for most other abilities, provided you have Power Attack and Cleave on your character. LD will also work for much unarmed attacks in terms of the boosts, but not so much with most of the special attacks, which won't apply.

Shouldn't be a problem to go to Fury of the Wild (haven't used it myself), but keep in mind that ninjas work best when they aren't the center of attention, so its attacks may draw more aggro than you want. Offensively, it's a nicer option.

Grandmaster of Flowers gives you more synergy with the ninja as well as greater ki weaponization, but that doesn't mean you can't twist in some good LD or FitW stuff. I like adding in Legendary Tactics (+6 to tactical/stun DCs) and Brace for Impact (40% stacking fortification and +2 reflex) from Unyielding Sentinel. When my character's in LD mode, I'll twist in things from GMoF.

You didn't mention Shadowdancer, and you should. It has strong defensive powers, especially in persistent Incorporeal, Dodge, Invisibility, and even Dominate powers. Should meld well with a Drow for those special quests.

[Krelar]

If you are fortunate enough to find one, much less two Celestia shortswords, do try them out. They should dish out much destruction to anything that doesn't require a metal-type DR bypass. That is, anything short of a Pit Fiend should take a big ouchie from them, especially with the poison DoTs. I know that other threads have noted that certain stats claimed for Ninja Spy aren't fully working, but what is working kills quite efficiently.


Metal type is not a problem for Celestia as it ignores metal/alignment DR. (It even breaks DR/-) Only thing you have to worry about is light resistant/immune mobs (there are not very many in game)

[inspiredunease]

I didn't think celestia worked with the ninja spy core stuff as it's not piercing/slashing damage? I'd love to be corrected as it would be an awesome build.

[Scrag]

I didn't think celestia worked with the ninja spy core stuff as it's not piercing/slashing damage? I'd love to be corrected as it would be an awesome build.

Ugh. So then ninjaspy is utterly useless. The only real shortsword worth anything is celestia, unless you want to go for rebellion, but that is _ml25_.

Can someone confirm somehow if this works with ninjaspy?

edit: you have level 24 brush hooks, but if it doesnt bleed you are screwed, because thats all the extra damage you get. It also looks like you have to complete druids deep on epic elite..... It isn't a very easy chain to do on ee for sure.

[Krelar]

I didn't think celestia worked with the ninja spy core stuff as it's not piercing/slashing damage? I'd love to be corrected as it would be an awesome build.

It really depends on how the enhancement is typed. Some don't actually check the damage type they check the weapon type. (So a short sword will always be considered piercing and a quarterstaff will always be considered bludgeoning) others check the actually damage type.

I'm not sure which the ninja spy is.

[ThomasHunter]

I recently noticed the synergy in the Drow and Ninja Spy trees with short swords. I am planning a TR from a put monk into another pure monk, but this time a Drow using short swords (seems fun!).

Admittedly, I am not a monk expert so am unsure of how to build this. I'm thinking you want to get to 13 STR somehow (tomes or whatever) for PA. I'm also assuming that you should start DEX at a minimum of 18 (I don't think there is enough build points to go further). However, I don't want to go below 14 CON (lots of build points on an elf already).

My main question is regarding WIS. Since monks and their special features seem to be WIS-based, should I start reasonably high here (14-15) and put all level ups here? I'm just not convinced since the whole point seems to be to max DEX for max damage with short swords.

Thanks for the help!

[Scrag]

It really depends on how the enhancement is typed. Some don't actually check the damage type they check the weapon type. (So a short sword will always be considered piercing and a quarterstaff will always be considered bludgeoning) others check the actually damage type.

I'm not sure which the ninja spy is.

It would be a massive waste of a free box if it turned out it was damage type instead of weapon type. Sunblade and celestia both use weapon type for things like improved crit, so I dunno. I really want to get the most bang for my buck. :/

[Scrag]

I recently noticed the synergy in the Drow and Ninja Spy trees with short swords. I am planning a TR from a put monk into another pure monk, but this time a Drow using short swords (seems fun!).

Admittedly, I am not a monk expert so am unsure of how to build this. I'm thinking you want to get to 13 STR somehow (tomes or whatever) for PA. I'm also assuming that you should start DEX at a minimum of 18 (I don't think there is enough build points to go further). However, I don't want to go below 14 CON (lots of build points on an elf already).

My main question is regarding WIS. Since monks and their special features seem to be WIS-based, should I start reasonably high here (14-15) and put all level ups here? I'm just not convinced since the whole point seems to be to max DEX for max damage with short swords.

Thanks for the help!

I am a drow ninjaspy pure monk, and I have found it problematic... One of your key abilities gives you additional damage if the enemy is helpless. Since you are armed, you have to use stunning blow. Since you have to use stunning blow, your dc sucks, because you have crappy strength but high dex/wis/con. High wis gets you better dc for quivering palm, but that comes at the cost of dex, which is where you are getting dex to damage (supposedly). There are so few weapons in the epic game worth having that benefit from dextodam, tbh unless celestias work, I would say the entire ninja spy core is garbage, except for the shadow cloak. There just are not enough _good_ short swords or kamas to fuel ninjaspy mid, late, or epic game. And dream's edge is pretty useless for an 18 kama to boot.

[ThomasHunter]

I'm definitely learning more about monks. I actually thought the DC for SF was based on Wisdom which was why a clonk works well. In fact, my (newly made) clonk seems to be fine utilizing SF! I am indeed surprised and saddened.

Okay, point taken on named short swords (still an outstanding question on Celestia). There are plenty of non-named weapons these days at least!

Thanks again!

[fognozzle]

I'm definitely learning more about monks. I actually thought the DC for SF was based on Wisdom which was why a clonk works well. In fact, my (newly made) clonk seems to be fine utilizing SF! I am indeed surprised and saddened.

Okay, point taken on named short swords (still an outstanding question on Celestia). There are plenty of non-named weapons these days at least!

Thanks again!

The DC for stunning FIST is indeed wisdom based, the DC for stunning BLOW is strength based. The previous poster was referencing having to use stunning blow to make mobs helpless since using dual short swords precludes you from using stunning fist.

[inspiredunease]

Ugh. So then ninjaspy is utterly useless. The only real shortsword worth anything is celestia, unless you want to go for rebellion, but that is _ml25_.

Rebellion also sucks hairy eggs. 2.5[d8] instead of d10. Yeah the on crit is not a terrible proc, but it really doesn't stand up to Supreme Good, Radiance, Greater Sunburst, Fiery Detonation and banishing. Armor-piercing you're going to have from FBDS, and deception is also something you're already going to have slotted elsewhere.

I finally fished out the dev comment on it: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422146-Celestia-and-Dex-Damage. It still doesn't clarify whether it's WAI or not, but it's definitely borked. Personally I think you're better off with the old stalwart of LIT II / RAD II.

[Ayseifn]

Deception from weapons stacks with deception from clothing/jewelry, and similar deal with armour piercing. From what I understand different tiers will stack but the same tier wont, ie. 15% on Rebellion will stack with 20% from Black Robes. Rebellion also has a red slot so you can get devotion slotted if you need it, probably not a huge deal for pure monks but pretty great for monks that splash other classes.

[Scrag]

Rebellion also sucks hairy eggs. 2.5[d8] instead of d10. Yeah the on crit is not a terrible proc, but it really doesn't stand up to Supreme Good, Radiance, Greater Sunburst, Fiery Detonation and banishing. Armor-piercing you're going to have from FBDS, and deception is also something you're already going to have slotted elsewhere.

I finally fished out the dev comment on it: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422146-Celestia-and-Dex-Damage. It still doesn't clarify whether it's WAI or not, but it's definitely borked. Personally I think you're better off with the old stalwart of LIT II / RAD II.

Wow, talk about utter ghetto garbage. Thanks for digging up the quote on it. Ninjaspy is complete trash for pure monks using it specifically for shortswords/kamas/shuriken then. Who in their right mind would take it as a pure monk? -_-.

[Arlathen]

Who in their right mind would take it as a pure monk? -_-.

Me :)

I currently run a Half-Elf Monk 20, majoring in Ninja-Spy (I have the capstone) and wielding Dual Celestia's.

No, there not entirely ideal, but I can tell you the following:


Innate 1 - Dex to Hit doesn't work with Celestia.
Innate 2 - Dex to Damage doesn't work with Celestia.
Capstone - Vorpal doesn't work, Crit-Range expansion DOES work (Radiance procs on 15+).
Fists of Iron - Does work, as described.
Sting of the Ninja - Doesn't work, no Poison stacks applied.


That said, try some a pair of the Star of Day swords out. A pair with Holy Burst/Radiance work very nicely, and easy to work towards. There not as good as Celestia's, but can be very useful for stacking up Poison DoT and do get Vorpal.

Onto why I play this build...


My Monk is a Wis/Str build, Dex is enough for Reflex Saves and that's it
I've gone for Max DC Quivering Palm, currently sat at 70DC and it rocks
Celestia Radiance on 15+, with...
7D6+13 Sneak Damage is a really decent amount of extra damage
I've maxed my sneak skills, and get to play like an Assassin :)


It's a lot of fun, and I have another character that plays Unarmed Monk with Stunning Fist already...

[Wipey]

Rebellion also sucks hairy eggs.
Rebellion is equal raw dmg wise to Celestia.
Essentially red slot, SA, armour pierce, deception vs perma blind and banish on some mobs.
And that's hard to quantify and usefulness of those things will vary for different builds / gear of course.

[Todkaninchen]

It really depends on how the enhancement is typed. Some don't actually check the damage type they check the weapon type. (So a short sword will always be considered piercing and a quarterstaff will always be considered bludgeoning) others check the actually damage type.

I'm not sure which the ninja spy is.

They "fixed" at least part of it on the DEX to damage and DEX to hit stuff... For that, they check whether the usual item does piercing, slashing damage.

Which sort of screwed over my Rahl's Might collection (piercing Quarterstaves... or is it slashing?).

They also no longer get vorpal--which was awesome--because the based weapon type (quarterstaff) isn't slash/pierce either.

My bet is, they "fixed" that to allow celestia's to get the shortsword bonuses...

[Missing_Minds]

For DPS I think I'd go Celestias.

Antipodials always felt like a nitch weapon to me vs great dps. (they are great against neutrals such as animals, vermin, druids, et. I haven't really tried them out against unthinking undead.) However, my plan is to get a mabar neg level gem, slap that into antipodal, call it a day and retire Gravewrappings.