Peak Damage Weapons with Tier 5 Augmentation

[maddong]

If you are going for max critical damage (excluding barbarian) are these pretty much the options (with tier 3 earth stance/overwhelming crit, excluding epic destiny):

deathnips 15-20/x4 (19-20/x6) fighter 8/monk 1 (110% average crit damage with keen edge)
sword of shadows 13-20/x3 (19-20/x5) fighter 8/monk 1 (100% with keen edge)
sireth 13-20/x3 (19-20/x5) monk 5/rogue 1 or rogue 5/monk 1 (100% with staff spec)
balizarde 13-20/x3 (19-20/x5) fighter 8/monk 1 (100% with keen edge)
drow khopesh 13-20/x3 (19-20/x5) fighter 8/monk 1 (100% with keen edge)
forester's brushhooks 13-20/x3 (19-20/x5) monk 20 (100% with ninja master)
drow dagger 13-20/x3 (19-20/x4) rogue 5 (90% with knife spec; cannot get earth stance because cannot be centered)
axe of adaxus 17-20/x4 (19-20/x7) fighter 8/monk 1 (90% with keen edge but including headmans chop, excluding devastating critical which you would get also but isn't included in the others)

[Darkrok]

If you are going for max critical damage (excluding barbarian) are these pretty much the options (with tier 3 earth stance, excluding epic destiny):

deathnips 15-20/x4 (19-20/x6) fighter 8/monk 1 (110% average crit damage with keen edge)
sword of shadows 13-20/x3 (19-20/x5) fighter 8/monk 1 (100% with keen edge)
sireth 13-20/x3 (19-20/x5) monk 5/rogue 1 or rogue 5/monk 1 (100% with staff spec)
drow khopesh 13-20/x3 (19-20/x5) fighter 8/monk 1 (100% with keen edge)
drow dagger 13-20/x3 (19-20/x4) rogue 5 (90% with knife spec; cannot get earth stance because cannot be centered)

The list looks good. I'd add in that you could actually do 8+ fighter, 5+ rogue, 1+ monk to get earth stance on the drow dagger. Not sure I would bother building for that but it could be done.

I keep debating a deathnip toon at cap. Seems like it would be really fun to get that kind of damage...thinking that you'd want to build around the required 9 levels to look for classes/abilities to increase fort bypass as it's the top build for crit damage. Perhaps even go so far as to use 10 rogue/8 fighter/2 monk. Opportunist would work out really well on the build. I'll have to see how that build would work out.

[Darkrok]

Ok, looking at Deathnips I'm thinking you could get a lot of play out of the following build:

10 rogue/8 fighter/2 monk
Race whatever
Damage stat could be strength or con (if dwarf)
Not overly MAD but we're missing out on self-healing beyond scrolls and unmodified cocoon so that's the downside

Total heroic feats are 5 fighter, 7 levels, and 2 monk (14 or 15 if human)
Heroic Feats:
Weapon Focus -> Weapon Spec -> Greater Weapon Focus
Two Weapon Fighting -> iTWF -> gTWF
Adept of Forms -> MoF -> GMoF (optional but we can fit it in if desired)
Power Attack -> Cleave -> Great Cleave
Improved Critical: Pierce
Precision

The feat order and leveling order will be tricky in getting all of our feats in at the right time (since level 6, 12, and 18 should be the form upgrades). We'd need the TWF line later on depending on our tome usage, etc. I think it's certainly workable though, allows for Celestia for DR-breaking when Deathnips would fall behind (since both are piercing) and provides a ton of sneak attack damage that melds well with our fort bypass concerns.

Last thing - first blush this seems like a great spot for Throw your Weight Around. Earth IV stance would be +4 to our to-hit/damage stat. Dwarf would be 20-base to our starting damage stat. We'd still have to get to 23 base strength for Overwhelming Critical which probably means 2-3 level-ups to strength but we're going to certainly be in Earth stance...why not use that to add more to our damage? Other races would certainly work as str-based but going con-based (and using the dwarven boosts to pick damage as filler to get to Throw your Weight Around) seems attractive.

[Darkrok]

Took a closer look at Throw your Weight Around is underwhelming here. Race is inconsequential for the most part other than perhaps requiring a +5 con tome of you go down the Epic Toughness route if you take a race that doesn't get +2 con.

I went with Dwarf in this build and took Toughness -> Epic Toughness as a result as opposed to Grandmaster of Forms + one other feat at 24. It's certainly feasible to go with Half Elf or Human here but there's so little space for AP's with all the juicy stuff in assassin and kensei that I'm not sure race really matters.

EDIT: Basically the enhancements I took were Mechanic to get to Wand/Scroll 75% (this is our main self-healing so that's critical), Kensei for One with the Blade picking up 30% haste boost and +3 action boosts, and assassin to pick up the cheaper crit damage enhancements, execute, killer 2/3, poison blades, shiv, bleed them out, and the 30% damage boost. That's at least 8 haste boosts and 8 damage boosts a rest which should have us very much set in that regard. We could dump the damage boosts if we're in dreadnaught or twist the damage boost which would open up 6ap...might be a nice setup for running a half elven version that takes the 20% damage boost there and double-boosts. I also missed the Shintao enhancements so I'd have to redo some things to fit in the 7-13 points we'd want to spend there. Have to come back to this later and see if I can work it all out on a Half Elf.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Deathnips
Level 28 Lawful Neutral Dwarf Male
(8 Fighter \ 2 Monk \ 10 Rogue \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 530
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 16
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 18 32
Dexterity 15 19
Constitution 18 22
Intelligence 10 14
Wisdom 8 12
Charisma 6 10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Strength used at level 15
+4 Tome of Dexterity used at level 15
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 15
+4 Tome of Intelligence used at level 15
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 15
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 15
+5 Tome of Strength used at level 19

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 2 16
Bluff -2 8
Concentration 4 16
Diplomacy -2 8
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle -2 8
Heal -1 9
Hide 2 12
Intimidate -2 8
Jump 4 19
Listen -1 11
Move Silently 2 12
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 12
Search 0 14
Spellcraft 0 10
Spot -1 11
Swim n/a n/a
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device -2 8

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Fighter
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Ranger
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Rogue)


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Adept of Forms


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Precision


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Knife in the Darkness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Shiv (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Shiv (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Shiv (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Venomed Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Venomed Blades (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Venomed Blades (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Bleed Them Out (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Bleed Them Out (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Bleed Them Out (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Damage Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Damage Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Critical Accuracy (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Execute (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Critical Damage (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Critical Damage (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Critical Damage (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Killer (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Assassin (Rog) - Killer (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Mechanic (Rog) - Arbalester (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Mechanic (Rog) - Mechanics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Mechanic (Rog) - Mechanics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Mechanic (Rog) - Awareness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Mechanic (Rog) - Awareness (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Mechanic (Rog) - Wand and Scroll Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Mechanic (Rog) - Wand and Scroll Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Mechanic (Rog) - Wand and Scroll Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Light Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Spiritual Bond (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strike With No Thought (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Extra Action Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Light Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Light Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Weapon Meditation (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Conditioning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Conditioning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Light Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Shattering Strike (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Light Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Strength (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Keen Edge (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - One With The Blade (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Deadly Strike (Rank 1)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Toughness


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Blinding Speed


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: First Blood

[fredericko]

If you are going for max critical damage (excluding barbarian) are these pretty much the options (with tier 3 earth stance, excluding epic destiny):

deathnips 15-20/x4 (19-20/x6) fighter 8/monk 1 (110% average crit damage with keen edge)
sword of shadows 13-20/x3 (19-20/x5) fighter 8/monk 1 (100% with keen edge)
sireth 13-20/x3 (19-20/x5) monk 5/rogue 1 or rogue 5/monk 1 (100% with staff spec)
drow khopesh 13-20/x3 (19-20/x5) fighter 8/monk 1 (100% with keen edge)
drow dagger 13-20/x3 (19-20/x4) rogue 5 (90% with knife spec; cannot get earth stance because cannot be centered)

That's a nice list. If you allow me to nitpick a little bit, if the list is only for DPS reasons splashing out of kensai doesn't seem like a good idea because kensai 20 gives an extra 16% doublestrike over kensai 18. For a weapon like eSOS that hits 37 times out of 20 attacks (1 is always a miss, so that's 19 base + 16 from 13-20x3, + 2 from OC), 16% doublestrike adds 5 more attacks (tecnhically 5.5) while mountain stance just adds 2 (extra multiplier on19-20).

Now ofc that monk splash can mean much more than just extra crit.

[Darkrok]

It just occurred to me that there's a specific setup that's going to have the largest crit multiplier...beyond anything offered by other weapons:

Axe starts as 20x4
Kensei + Imp Crit expands that to 17-20x4
Earth Stance goes to 17-18x4, 19-20x6

Total crit power = 16 (6 from the x4's and 10 from the x6's) for 80%. This is lower than the other weapons on the list. That said, this weapon offers the ability to take Headman's Chop from LD to add another 10% while the others do not so it would be lumped in with the 90% profiles once you consider that difference.

Adding in LD with Headman's Chop and Devastating Critical takes you to 17-18x4, 19-20x8 for an ED total of 100% (again, equivalent to where the 90% crit profile weapons would be if they went with LD but with the shiny x8 crit that I think is only provided right now but x4 axes.

[sirgog]

How does Forester's Brush Hook (19/x3, kama) look with a pure monk (Ninja Spy capstone, earth stance)?

[Darkrok]

How does Forester's Brush Hook (19/x3, kama) look with a pure monk (Ninja Spy capstone, earth stance)?

This one is fascinating to me. They're pretty much global DR breakers (outside of bludgeoning/piercing/weird stuff) as aligned metalline weapons. Their damage isn't bad (+7 enhancement bonus, 3[1d6] base damage, phlebotomizing). From a crit range perspective assuming my math is correct we get the following:

Base 19-20x3
Expanded Crit Ninja Spy Capstone 17-20x3
Improved Critical Feat 13-20x3
Earth Stance + Overwhelming Critical 13-18x3, 19-20x5

Total crit power of 20 (12 from x3 and 8 from the x5) = 100%

[Darkrok]

This one is fascinating to me. They're pretty much global DR breakers (outside of bludgeoning/piercing/weird stuff) as aligned metalline weapons. Their damage isn't bad (+7 enhancement bonus, 3[1d6] base damage, phlebotomizing). From a crit range perspective assuming my math is correct we get the following:

Base 19-20x3
Expanded Crit Ninja Spy Capstone 17-20x3
Improved Critical Feat 13-20x3
Earth Stance + Overwhelming Critical 13-18x3, 19-20x5

Total crit power of 20 (12 from x3 and 8 from the x5) = 100%

This also may be the most powerful weapon to make use of the following two abilities:


Fists of Iron: Earth Ki Melee Attack: You have imbued your attacks with extra force. Performs a melee attack with +3[W] damage, +1 critical threat range, and +1 Critical Damage Multiplier.

Fists of Iron attack: 12-18x4, 19-20x6, total crit power of 155%


The Trembling Earth
Combination: Earth - Earth - Earth
10 Ki.
The attack has +2 critical multiplier, and the victim is unable to cast spells for 30 seconds.
Fortitude save negates.


The Trembling Earth attack: 13-18x5, 19-20x7, total crit power of 180%

Spamming earth attacks would be devastating with this weapon setup.

[Wipey]

It just occurred to me that there's a specific setup that's going to have the largest crit multiplier...beyond anything offered by other weapons:

Axe of Adaxus in Dreadnaught with Headman's Chop.

Axe starts as 20x4
Kensei + Imp Crit expands that to 17-20x4
Earth Stance goes to 17-18x4, 19-20x5
Devastating Crit goes to 17-18x4, 19-20x6
Headman's Chop goes to 17-18x4, 19-20x7

Total crit power = 18 (6 from the x4's and 12 from the x7's) for 90%. In the conversation in total crit power but it will have the largest crits in the group.
No matter how you look at it, Adaxus' crit profile is just not good, don't know why people keep praising it. Max, probably yes, but not "total crit power " :) Also Adaxus would be x 8, you forgot OC, that would make 6 + 14 = 20.
Balizarde kensei in LD
13-18 x3
19-20 x6 ( earth, OC, devastating crit ), 12+ 10 = 22.
Duergar
15-18 x3
19-20 x7 , 8 + 10 = 18
Deathnip
15-18 x4
19-20 x7 , 12 +10 =22

Any good twf would be in fury too, so that's something to consider, axes would be even further behind.
Deathnip means no Planar focus of course ( there is still Claw but who does that anymore :)) and much lower base damage than other weapons, super easy to obtain though.

[Darkrok]

No matter how you look at it, Adaxus' crit profile is just not good, don't know why people keep praising it. Max, probably yes, but not "total crit power " :) Also Adaxus would be x 8, you forgot OC, that would make 6 + 14 = 20.
Balizarde kensei in LD
13-18 x3
19-20 x6 ( earth, OC, devastating crit ), 12+ 10 = 22.
Duergar
15-18 x3
19-20 x7 , 8 + 10 = 18
Deathnip
15-18 x4
19-20 x7 , 12 +10 =22

Any good twf would be in fury too, so that's something to consider, axes would be even further behind.
Deathnip means no Planar focus of course ( there is still Claw but who does that anymore :)) and much lower base damage than other weapons, super easy to obtain though.

Yeah, I fixed my damage list earlier but you're right, Adaxus is even with the 90% weapons once you factor in headman's chop which puts it in the conversation but down the list. Balizarde Kensei is equal to the sword of shadows Kensei, sireth monk/rogue, and pure monk forester's brush hook at 100% outside of LD, 110% in LD.

Interesting thing is you could actually build a Balizarde Kensei and level up with the Deathnips without changing the build. Seems like a nice way to go given what's in the game right now. It also gives you a solid option for DR breaking as Balizarde and Celestia both fall within the Light Blades area for Kensei. Would be a nice path for someone building a crit-focused toon and I agree that divorcing yourself from needing dreadnought is a good thing.

[maddong]

Updated the original post.

Effort wise it looks like Sireth is a real winner considering the whole world will have one for free next update.

How much behind is a deathnip build vs a balizarde build in DPS considering that it has a superior crit profile? The nice thing about deathnips is they work well with adrenalines.

[Darkrok]

Updated the original post.

Effort wise it looks like Sireth is a real winner considering the whole world will have one for free next update.

How much behind is a deathnip build vs a balizarde build in DPS considering that it has a superior crit profile? The nice thing about deathnips is they work well with adrenalines.

That's going to depend on some of the other items mentioned earlier...you're going to need to get some other method of getting the artifact bonus to damage that you lose from planar conflux. Balizarde isn't a world-beater damage-wise - it's got a great crit profile but it's +8 enh, 2.5[1d8] (11.25 average), phlebotomizing (3d6=10.5 average) and that's it. Deathnips are +5 enh, 1.5[1d6] (5.25 average), and 9d10 on crits (30% of 49.5 average = 14.85 average). That makes Balizarde 29.75 total on things that can bleed with 19.25 of that applying to all enemies and multiplying through on crits. Deathnips are 25.1 total against all enemies but only 10.25 of that multiplying through on crits. The nips are behind by 10 base damage which sounds like a lot...but then you figure in that so much of your damage will be coming from other sources that it's more like 80-85% if I had to guess. There's no question that Balizardes will outperform the nips but not by enough to make the nips unusable.

Sireth is really nice but the builds using it are going to look a lot different as 1) it's THF-based - only the Epic Sword of Shadows makes our list as another THF weapon and 2) it really requires at least a few rogue, a few monk level, and at least one of the two having 5 levels to shine. That's not game-breaking but means a different looking build which may not be ideal for exploiting the crit profile as much as possible. Specific issues that come to mind are that if we go heavily monk we'd really want wisdom to take advantage of things like Quivering Palm but we're still going to want Overwhelming Critical. Similarly we could go Dex-based in Rogue or Monk either one but again, we still have to invest to get Overwhelming Critical. The smaller/non-existent monk splashes don't have those concerns and can therefore sell out more heavily into strength and therefore into crit damage. I'm really thinking that a 12 fighter/6 ranger/2 monk that took both of the offhand boosts (tempest and shintao) to get offhand strikes to 100% could do some crazy things with a crit-centric piercing build. As a bonus you would have enough investment in ranger and other free feats to pick up Manyshot (free) and Improved Crit: Ranged which would allow you to Furyshot if you stayed in Fury of the Wild. For a more balanced ranged/weapon mix you could go 11 ranger/8 fighter/1 monk and pick up most of the same feats (in my version I built you lose out on Quick Draw and Greater Weapon Spec), still get the 100% offhand attacks, and have Improved Precise Shot added in for times you can line up a big row for your Furyshot or even just a Manyshot + 1 or 2 adrenaline.

[Xianio]

That's a nice list. If you allow me to nitpick a little bit, if the list is only for DPS reasons splashing out of kensai doesn't seem like a good idea because kensai 20 gives an extra 16% doublestrike over kensai 18. For a weapon like eSOS that hits 37 times out of 20 attacks (1 is always a miss, so that's 19 base + 16 from 13-20x3, + 2 from OC), 16% doublestrike adds 5 more attacks (tecnhically 5.5) while mountain stance just adds 2 (extra multiplier on19-20).

Now ofc that monk splash can mean much more than just extra crit.

Sorry to derail a little but help me out here. I'm currently in the (very long) process of leveling up my first toon. My hope is that the build provides unexpectedly high dps.

Some quick context; I'm building a pure 20 S&B Fighter using the Bsword First Blood. The big point to note being that 50% of the time it has 84% doublestrike (when fully geared).

Given the method described above I've found this: 19 base + 4 from 17-20x2 + 2 from OC with 84% doublestrike adding 21 more attacks for 46 attacks per 20 swings.

Is this correct?

[cru121]

Is Shining Devastation worth mentioning? 19-20 / x3 + plus the option of Pulverizer

[Darkrok]

Is Shining Devastation worth mentioning? 19-20 / x3 + plus the option of Pulverizer

Looking at it the same way that I looked at the axe of adaxus (including the special ED Pulverizer but leaving out devastating critical) we get the following:

Base 19-20/x3
With Pulverizer 18-20/x3
With 8 fighter 17-20/x3
With Improved Crit: Bludgeoning 13-20/x3
With Earth Stance/OCrit: 13-18/x3, 19-20/x5 = 100% crit damage (right in the second pack behind only deathnips)

This one suffers even more outside of LD though:
15-18/x3, 19-20/x5 = 80% crit damage

It is a THF weapon though which makes it an option for someone that can't get an ESoS and wants a max-crit THF weapon. It's also 1.5[1d16] and 2d6 force damage making it an average per hit of 12.75 + 7 force damage. That's a higher number than the Balizarde's I looked at earlier as far as the number that propagates through to crits. Obviously Epic Sword of Shadows is MUCH better (27.5 damage per hit that multiplies through to crits...no added damage) but as far as weapons go simply for maximizing crits Shining Devastation with Pulverizer selected in Dreadnought is among the top.

[maddong]

Looking at it the same way that I looked at the axe of adaxus (including the special ED Pulverizer but leaving out devastating critical) we get the following:

Base 19-20/x3
With Pulverizer 18-20/x3
With 8 fighter 17-20/x3
With Improved Crit: Bludgeoning 13-20/x3
With Earth Stance/OCrit: 13-18/x3, 19-20/x5 = 100% crit damage (right in the second pack behind only deathnips)

This one suffers even more outside of LD though:
15-18/x3, 19-20/x5 = 80% crit damage

It is a THF weapon though which makes it an option for someone that can't get an ESoS and wants a max-crit THF weapon. It's also 1.5[1d16] and 2d6 force damage making it an average per hit of 12.75 + 7 force damage. That's a higher number than the Balizarde's I looked at earlier as far as the number that propagates through to crits. Obviously Epic Sword of Shadows is MUCH better (27.5 damage per hit that multiplies through to crits...no added damage) but as far as weapons go simply for maximizing crits Shining Devastation with Pulverizer selected in Dreadnought is among the top.

I'm pretty sure I read that pulverizer and keen edge don't stack.

[Darkrok]

I'm pretty sure I read that pulverizer and keen edge don't stack.

If that's true then that weapon goes back to being meh.

[moo_cow]

That's a nice list. If you allow me to nitpick a little bit, if the list is only for DPS reasons splashing out of kensai doesn't seem like a good idea because kensai 20 gives an extra 16% doublestrike over kensai 18. For a weapon like eSOS that hits 37 times out of 20 attacks (1 is always a miss, so that's 19 base + 16 from 13-20x3, + 2 from OC), 16% doublestrike adds 5 more attacks (tecnhically 5.5) while mountain stance just adds 2 (extra multiplier on19-20).

Now ofc that monk splash can mean much more than just extra crit.

Going outside of kensai pally and monk are the good splash to go for.

- with just the 2 levels of monk from a dps standpoint you get 1.5[w] and 10% double strike or +1 critical multiplier on roll of 19-20
- and with 4 levels of pally, or less you can add 12 + str from your charisma

+ more goodies, but actually staying pure kensai is pretty weak compared to what you can add from splashes from dps standpoint.

[fredericko]

Sorry to derail a little but help me out here. I'm currently in the (very long) process of leveling up my first toon. My hope is that the build provides unexpectedly high dps.

Some quick context; I'm building a pure 20 S&B Fighter using the Bsword First Blood. The big point to note being that 50% of the time it has 84% doublestrike (when fully geared).

Given the method described above I've found this: 19 base + 4 from 17-20x2 + 2 from OC with 84% doublestrike adding 21 more attacks for 46 attacks per 20 swings.

Is this correct?

Technically doublestrike is a better damage scaling factor than crit profile because it scales with more things than crit profile. I posted what I posted for simplicity sake.

If you want to get some feedback on a specific build you'd probably get great suggestions by posting your build on the correspondent forum section.

To answer your question: Assuming you can maintain that 80% doublestrike, then I suppose your calculations would be accurate. However, it's easy to get carried away with that calculations since I suspect a big chunk of that 80% doublestrike comes from landing a clicky attack, which will be hitting thin air lots of times against moving targets for lag reasons alone (I am getting that lots of times when trying to Shadow Double with my monk). At any rate S&B is not going to give you top tier DPS because your damage per swing will be remarkably lower than a 2HF and your attack speed will be lower than a TWF, and that's on a same crit profile weapon. It's true that S&B can do more DPS than ever before though.

[fredericko]

Going outside of kensai pally and monk are the good splash to go for.

- with just the 2 levels of monk from a dps standpoint you get 1.5[w] and 10% double strike or +1 critical multiplier on roll of 19-20
- and with 4 levels of pally, or less you can add 12 + str from your charisma

+ more goodies, but actually staying pure kensai is pretty weak compared to what you can add from splashes from dps standpoint.

We're thread hijacking, but to answer your post: my lvl 20 eSOS horc kensei when on LD hits for 120+ weapon damage on a run-of-the-mill left click swing, before haste / damage boost. +1.5[W] adds 10 damage per swing to an eSOS and that's a twist of fate you're spending. Regardless of spare twists: going 120 to 130 dmg/swing for 16% doublestrike (and that's assuming 18 fighter) is a bad trade, and even with a +1 to 19-20 crits it doesn't pay because for an eSOS kensei that crit gain means less than a 5% overall DPS increase (there are other considerations though - if you had decent doublestrike already then 10 extra damage per strike could pay off).

Wind stance would be better than earth stance DPS wise, but even then you would have to go full Grandmaster of forms to get 10% doublestrike (earth crits need only master), which is close but not quite, and on top of that you would be sacrificing earth survivalability.

[trapbait]

Great thread!

May have a problem, was tweaking dual axe toon last night, and I couldn't get a change in the threat range when I added keen edge. It was 19-20 due to the improved critical, but no change after adding the Keen edge.

Tried several ways, reseting enchancments, feats, etc.... couldn't get the threat range off 19-20.

Any ideas as what I am doing wrong or did yesterdays patch bring a Keen edge gremlin with it?

Look forward to feedback.

[hi_sa1nt]

What about a centered kensai dual wielding Mornh hammer build?

[Eth]

Why is there no Epic Mirage on the list? With Keen Edge it should crit 11-20, right? ;)
Not the best crit profile overall, but certainly fun to crit every 2nd hit.

[Inoukchuk]

Sorry to derail a little but help me out here. I'm currently in the (very long) process of leveling up my first toon. My hope is that the build provides unexpectedly high dps.

Some quick context; I'm building a pure 20 S&B Fighter using the Bsword First Blood. The big point to note being that 50% of the time it has 84% doublestrike (when fully geared).

Given the method described above I've found this: 19 base + 4 from 17-20x2 + 2 from OC with 84% doublestrike adding 21 more attacks for 46 attacks per 20 swings.

Is this correct?

EE first Blood only grants 15% doublestrike, so I assume the other 69% comes from sources that would also apply to other weapons. So now calculate duergar waraxe with 69% doublestrike (then proceed to forget about first blood).

Side note, Coronation fits same circumstance as Shining Devastation. Too bad to hear pulverizer doesn't work with keen edge (if that's true, which I assume it is).

[redraider]

What about a centered kensai dual wielding Mornh hammer build?

Especially with a dwarf with Con based damage profile.