For once i agree with Blizzard. Turbine should do the same! Back to your roots!

[badbob117]

So i got a email a few weeks ago from the dreaded Blizzard company, before all this exploit nonsense hit DDO. I was done with Diablo 3 last year when my account got hacked by some putz. I Took a break from DDO for a bit. Went and fooled around in Neverwinter only to realize fast it was just another pay to win cash grab of a game. The exploits from the community and the lack of action from the devs pretty much killed the game. All they really cared about was Astral shard purchases and zen . The game declined and turned into a bunch of gold spammers fast.

I played some xbox games. Some pc games. Nothing in the MMO realm because i was kinda sick of the cash grabs around every corner. Then last week I decided to come back to DDO and see whats up. Reconnect with some old friends and kill some baddies. Maybe start the grind up once again for loot, xp, raids and epic mumbo jumbo. Upon checking my email for purchase order i finally got around to seeing what that message from Blizzard was all about...

Here it is. I was kinda shocked to say the least. Blizzard doing away with its cash cow?

http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr106/badbob117/blizzard_zpscb375de1.jpg (http://s474.photobucket.com/user/badbob117/media/blizzard_zpscb375de1.jpg.html)

For once i agree with them and i think these lame real money Auction houses do nothing but cause trouble for Games like Diablo, DDO and Neverwinter. These games are supposed to be about killing bad guys and ransacking their treasure. Every game i played with a real money auction house where we could purchase virtual junk ended up with its fair share of negative consequences. Once they add this feature the game gets tainted, Cheapened and cheesy as heck. Dungeons and Dragons online is no exception. It creates a rift in the community. A two tier system so to speak. Those with their big credit cards and those without. It also causes a influx of people willing to exploit to bypass paying real money for pixels.

Do away with it. It tarnishes the game. For once i agree with Blizzard! They are doing away with their dirty cash grab tactics and i think Turbine should do the same. Devs Time can be spent on better things rather then all this astral shard nonsense!

You guys and girls at Turbine should go back to your roots as well. Make money by selling us wicked quests and raids with tons of new bad guys hording their awesome loot. That is all we want! To play a game and reap our just rewards. It is pretty simple really. The direction the game has went since ASAH is pretty bleak! Just my 2 cents after coming back and seeing the economy in shambles in a game used to love. Dev time wasted once again on stuff 90% of the player base could care less about. Nothing good will ever come of a real money AH. At least not for us players!

I Tried the new expansion. Looted some boring new loot and was underwhelmed as a whole after completing it. I could not help but think to myself how much better it could be if the devs focused less on cash grabs and more on game play. The game is messed up right now and i personally think Turbine should re-evaluate their economic choices. I Have not even been back a week and the game feels stale already. The new Expansion was no where near the caliber of what Motu was! The poor choices of Turbine as a whole has really effected the game and it has to stop! Turbine needs to go back to its roots of being a game company and not a zen/tp/store/AS business. It is really starting to show in the lack of quality quests, loot and monsters! It is a pretty sad state of affairs! Smarten up Turbine!

Anyway that is my bi-annual rant for the year on these forums. Good questing and peace out y'all!

[uncleblue]

How long have you worked for Blizzard?

[badbob117]

How long have you worked for Blizzard?

I actually hate blizzard with a passion. But hey thanks for contributing with such a intellectual post to the thread! :D

[carll78]

http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr106/badbob117/blizzard_zpscb375de1.jpg (http://s474.photobucket.com/user/badbob117/media/blizzard_zpscb375de1.jpg.html)

http://i.imgur.com/ydiBX0B.gif

[Xeno5k]

I never paid a penny to use the ASAH. I just farmed 50 favor bought a diamond, crushed it and posted my first item, made some more shards, posted a second item, and so on and so forth. It's really inefficient to buy shards from the store, unless you have that much disposable income. The real problem is people pay money for things yet have no say in how those things turn out. If they are going to release new content then the people who pay for it should have voting rights as to what it is and how it works.

[uncleblue]

I actually hate blizzard with a passion. But hey thanks for contributing with such a intellectual post to the thread! :D

Obviously.

You hate them so much you actually read their emails and reposted them on DDO's forum, trashing DDO, and saying Blizzard is good.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[redspecter23]

I never paid a penny to use the ASAH. I just farmed 50 favor bought a diamond, crushed it and posted my first item, made some more shards, posted a second item, and so on and so forth. It's really inefficient to buy shards from the store, unless you have that much disposable income. The real problem is people pay money for things yet have no say in how those things turn out. If they are going to release new content then the people who pay for it should have voting rights as to what it is and how it works.

This right here.

The ASAH is only a cash store if you want it to be one. I used shards that I had banked in the form of diamonds before the change. Never spent a single cent on the shards in the store. As mentioned, it's extremely inefficient to do so. Astral shards are available in game. You just have to post rare unwanted loot on the ASAH and let rich people spend their money on shards from the store to buy items.

Even if you don't want to participate in that, you can just use the forums and directly trade your unwanted loot for loot you can use.

I'm not sure how this compares to the money shop in Diablo 3 as I never tried that one out at all. Honestly, if the ASAH went away tomorrow it would have no effect on how much loot I obtain as I never bought anything from it. My daily gold rolls would stop immediately though and even then, it's not a huge loss.

[supott]

We are writing tell you about..

..Advance notice..

Sorry, couldn't help but notice the wrong grammar. Anyway, this is nice to hear for Diablo 3. Diablo 2 is one of my all time fave games.. Haven't tried 3 yet.
With regards to DDO, i think as long as there is still BTC and BTA loot, ASAH is ok. DDO needs to make money and I am for supporting the game. It's a F2P game and this is how they make money. I accept this. It is not a PVP game either so it doesn't destroy the game..

In the end, it's just a game and it will 'tempt' you but its your decision whether you wanna play for fun, or spend all your $$$ on it.

[Antiguo]

Obviously.

You hate them so much you actually read their emails and reposted them on DDO's forum, trashing DDO, and saying Blizzard is good.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Woah, i must say you are impressive, not even the more rabid fanboys could say that being against the ASAH is by any means "trashing DDO" or that saying a single decision by Blizzard makes them good (or bad).

Now tell me, what good has the ASAH done to DDO?, why do you defend it?, how long have you been working for WB?

[Vellrad]

1. AH using normal currency (like gold, plat or whatever metal is used to make in game coins) is good for a game- it lets people to sell loot they don't need from killing monsters to gather wealth needed to purchase loot want, and/or resources consumed to kill more monsters. (RL$$ AH is not cool)

2. Diablo's goal is killing monster for loot. That's why blizzard removed RL$$ AH.
DDO's goal is grinding XP over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, using random generated loot, while buying XP boosts from one of 3 NPCs, or (hopefully) DDO Store. That's why turbine don't need to care about shard exchange. Its simply irrelevant, as loot has became irrelevant.

[Charononus]

Op a good percentage of the forumites are insane and unable to see anything Turbine does as bad. They could delete everyone's toons and these people will call it the best decision ever made. You can't have a discussion about ways to actually improve the game here because they think everything is great and that you can't improve on that perfection.

[Xianio]

2. Diablo's goal is killing monster for loot. That's why blizzard removed RL$$ AH.

Nope, definitely not.

This isn't a game play decision, it's an economic and political decision. The nice thing for Blizzard is that it's also very easy PR to say "hey we're doing it for you" when that's really not the driving factor at all.

Something important to note about this choice is that the removal will occur shortly before D3 enters the console market. This is the most likely reason for the removal of the AH. Consoles are significantly more complicated economically as Blizzard now needs to deal with a 3rd part intermediary in addition to another layer of transactions (country/currency for the PC which is currently at least 4-5 markets and then double that as consoles would require their own unique systems).

What's more, Sony may not be willing to give the Blizzard team the constant stream of info they need to safeguard credit card info for which they would be liable.

Finally, D3 is currently a "dead" game (not that nobody plays it but that nobody NEW is playing it). This "hey we're dropping the AH AND moving to consoles" is an excellent way to create incentives for yet another group of people to buy units. The final decision most likely being made after poor interest and sales on the latest expansion.

All told, this is D3 "cashing out," moving away from a semi-P2W model for a final hurrah at unit sales.
-------------------------

Turbine can't really do this and expect the same results. Mostly because they're not moving into a new market, don't have the marketing support of a major global company and their entire game is based around the choice of the F2P-nickel and dime model or the P2P classic MMO interaction.

The shard shop is 100% to get F2P players to spend the odd few dollars/the money Turbine gives you for free so that they become comfortable spending money on the game, thus are more likely to make bigger, more frequent purchases.

TLDR: Oranges and apples, or how I learned digital markets are complicated.

[AtomicMew]

Nope, definitely not.

This isn't a game play decision, it's an economic and political decision. The nice thing for Blizzard is that it's also very easy PR to say "hey we're doing it for you" when that's really not the driving factor at all.

Something important to note about this choice is that the removal will occur shortly before D3 enters the console market. This is the most likely reason for the removal of the AH. Consoles are significantly more complicated economically as Blizzard now needs to deal with a 3rd part intermediary in addition to another layer of transactions (country/currency for the PC which is currently at least 4-5 markets and then double that as consoles would require their own unique systems).

What's more, Sony may not be willing to give the Blizzard team the constant stream of info they need to safeguard credit card info for which they would be liable.

Finally, D3 is currently a "dead" game (not that nobody plays it but that nobody NEW is playing it). This "hey we're dropping the AH AND moving to consoles" is an excellent way to create incentives for yet another group of people to buy units. The final decision most likely being made after poor interest and sales on the latest expansion.

All told, this is D3 "cashing out," moving away from a semi-P2W model for a final hurrah at unit sales.
-------------------------

Turbine can't really do this and expect the same results. Mostly because they're not moving into a new market, don't have the marketing support of a major global company and their entire game is based around the choice of the F2P-nickel and dime model or the P2P classic MMO interaction.

The shard shop is 100% to get F2P players to spend the odd few dollars/the money Turbine gives you for free so that they become comfortable spending money on the game, thus are more likely to make bigger, more frequent purchases.

TLDR: Oranges and apples, or how I learned digital markets are complicated.

I don't necessarily agree or have an opinion, but this is a well thought out counterpoint to the original post. Basement dwellers, pay attention.

[Clatterfist]

Nope, definitely not.

This isn't a game play decision, it's an economic and political decision. The nice thing for Blizzard is that it's also very easy PR to say "hey we're doing it for you" when that's really not the driving factor at all.

Something important to note about this choice is that the removal will occur shortly before D3 enters the console market. This is the most likely reason for the removal of the AH. Consoles are significantly more complicated economically as Blizzard now needs to deal with a 3rd part intermediary in addition to another layer of transactions (country/currency for the PC which is currently at least 4-5 markets and then double that as consoles would require their own unique systems).

What's more, Sony may not be willing to give the Blizzard team the constant stream of info they need to safeguard credit card info for which they would be liable.

Finally, D3 is currently a "dead" game (not that nobody plays it but that nobody NEW is playing it). This "hey we're dropping the AH AND moving to consoles" is an excellent way to create incentives for yet another group of people to buy units. The final decision most likely being made after poor interest and sales on the latest expansion.

All told, this is D3 "cashing out," moving away from a semi-P2W model for a final hurrah at unit sales.
-------------------------

Turbine can't really do this and expect the same results. Mostly because they're not moving into a new market, don't have the marketing support of a major global company and their entire game is based around the choice of the F2P-nickel and dime model or the P2P classic MMO interaction.

The shard shop is 100% to get F2P players to spend the odd few dollars/the money Turbine gives you for free so that they become comfortable spending money on the game, thus are more likely to make bigger, more frequent purchases.

TLDR: Oranges and apples, or how I learned digital markets are complicated.

I suspect this is the truth of the matter.

[burningwind]

agree, shard auction house are no good to this game. most of the stuff on there are way over priced. and it destroy the game market.. plat no longer hold much value to most people.

[Derana]

agree, shard auction house are no good to this game. most of the stuff on there are way over priced. and it destroy the game market.. plat no longer hold much value to most people.

yup. you cant buy anything for plat anymore in this game because everyone is plat capped. and because plat is worth nothing for this reason, no1 will spend their plat for anything because no1 accepts plat as currency. endless circle.

if you want something special or expensive (i hold the opinion that all this bound to character on equip stuff is designed only for the purpose of selling it on the astral shard auction house) you have to either get lucky with loot and find a lesser-blessed person that will buy an ioun stone for 600 astral shards (happened on sarlona) or you have to farm it urself. but with the normal auction house having a limit of 2 million, the inventory being capped at 4,3million and plat being pretty much worthless, the economy is quite ruined for a few months already.

the values to trade ee items for are ottos boxes, raid timers, rare scrolls (barely nowadays cuz of the lovely +10/11 stat random loot items) and astral shards. pretty sad :(

[Pandir]

Nope, definitely not.

This isn't a game play decision, it's an economic and political decision. The nice thing for Blizzard is that it's also very easy PR to say "hey we're doing it for you" when that's really not the driving factor at all.

Something important to note about this choice is that the removal will occur shortly before D3 enters the console market. This is the most likely reason for the removal of the AH. Consoles are significantly more complicated economically as Blizzard now needs to deal with a 3rd part intermediary in addition to another layer of transactions (country/currency for the PC which is currently at least 4-5 markets and then double that as consoles would require their own unique systems).

What's more, Sony may not be willing to give the Blizzard team the constant stream of info they need to safeguard credit card info for which they would be liable.

Finally, D3 is currently a "dead" game (not that nobody plays it but that nobody NEW is playing it). This "hey we're dropping the AH AND moving to consoles" is an excellent way to create incentives for yet another group of people to buy units. The final decision most likely being made after poor interest and sales on the latest expansion.

All told, this is D3 "cashing out," moving away from a semi-P2W model for a final hurrah at unit sales.
-------------------------

Turbine can't really do this and expect the same results. Mostly because they're not moving into a new market, don't have the marketing support of a major global company and their entire game is based around the choice of the F2P-nickel and dime model or the P2P classic MMO interaction.

The shard shop is 100% to get F2P players to spend the odd few dollars/the money Turbine gives you for free so that they become comfortable spending money on the game, thus are more likely to make bigger, more frequent purchases.

TLDR: Oranges and apples, or how I learned digital markets are complicated.

Yup this, Blizzard got some respect back from me for it but ilike any other company Blizzard wouldn't do it if there wasn't a economic reason attached.
Just from the little bit i played Diablo 3 it never looked like the AH gave them enough Bang for the huge overhead cost it has. (They actually have real money you can cash out, that probably adds tons of hoops to jump through in comparison to the Shard AH here)

[uncleblue]

Dev time wasted once again on stuff 90% of the player base could care less about. Nothing good will ever come of a real money AH. At least not for us players!

I Tried the new expansion. Looted some boring new loot and was underwhelmed as a whole after completing it. I could not help but think to myself how much better it could be if the devs focused less on cash grabs and more on game play. The game is messed up right now and i personally think Turbine should re-evaluate their economic choices. I Have not even been back a week and the game feels stale already. The new Expansion was no where near the caliber of what Motu was! The poor choices of Turbine as a whole has really effected the game and it has to stop! Turbine needs to go back to its roots of being a game company and not a zen/tp/store/AS business. It is really starting to show in the lack of quality quests, loot and monsters! It is a pretty sad state of affairs! Smarten up Turbine.

How is this not trashing Turbine?

[uncleblue]

Op a good percentage of the forumites are insane and unable to see anything Turbine does as bad. They could delete everyone's toons and these people will call it the best decision ever made. You can't have a discussion about ways to actually improve the game here because they think everything is great and that you can't improve on that perfection.

And some people just like to spread misery.

[Ashlayna]

Op a good percentage of the forumites are insane and unable to see anything Turbine does as bad. They could delete everyone's toons and these people will call it the best decision ever made. You can't have a discussion about ways to actually improve the game here because they think everything is great and that you can't improve on that perfection.

So the one guy on the tirade represents the majority of the forumites?

[Charononus]

So the one guy on the tirade represents the majority of the forumites?

There are countless people that fit "fanboi" title that go on rants everytime someone wants to change anything for the better. Change ed's for less grind. Evil. Get rid of the cashtral shard exchange. Evil. The list goes on and on. It's pointless to try to make legitimate suggestions here there are too many fanbois ready to defend turbines maidenhood like white knights to the death.

[Pandir]

There are countless people that fit "fanboi" title that go on rants everytime someone wants to change anything for the better. Change ed's for less grind. Evil. Get rid of the cashtral shard exchange. Evil. The list goes on and on. It's pointless to try to make legitimate suggestions here there are too many fanbois ready to defend turbines maidenhood like white knights to the death.

Meh you make Turbine get rid of the ASAH as you do with blizzard. As soon as it's unprofitable it'll be gone. Seems like there is tons of money spent on it though.

[Chai]

Meh you make Turbine get rid of the ASAH as you do with blizzard. As soon as it's unprofitable it'll be gone. Seems like there is tons of money spent on it though.

Tons of money spent on it? Tons of people proved they were willing to undermine that and break the rules to get stuff free. People are getting fed up with cash grab mechanics in MMOs, and I cant wait til it gets to the point where companies have to re-tether the financial success of the division to the quality of the game itself.

[Forzah]

There are countless people that fit "fanboi" title that go on rants everytime someone wants to change anything for the better. Change ed's for less grind. Evil. Get rid of the cashtral shard exchange. Evil. The list goes on and on. It's pointless to try to make legitimate suggestions here there are too many fanbois ready to defend turbines maidenhood like white knights to the death.

I can think of several reasons why, for instance, you would want to change EDs for less grind, but also several reasons why you would want to keep it the way it is. Same for removing or keeping the ASAH. Are you a "fanboi" for choosing one set of reasons over the other? I don't know.

Purely from a business perspective the ASAH could be making Turbine money, but it could also lose them money because of leaving customers. It's really hard to tell which is the most significant effect. For me personally the ASAH is detrimental to the way I experience the game. It is one of the reasons why I play less. The main reason is the high droprates and availability of epic gear and the overpowered and boring random loot. So on my behalf they could easily get rid of the ASAH.

[Pandir]

Tons of money spent on it? Tons of people proved they were willing to undermine that and break the rules to get stuff free. People are getting fed up with cash grab mechanics in MMOs, and I cant wait til it gets to the point where companies have to re-tether the financial success of the division to the quality of the game itself.

Hmmmm those people would have done the same thng if there was no shard exchange(Unless there was a way to dupe actual astral shards that i missed). Kinda only proves that people will cheat to get easy free stuff, in fact isn't that one of the reasons those auction houses even work ?
But if you're right i'll be more than happy to see any real money auction houses gone, i'm just not so optimistic.

[Loromir]

So i got a email a few weeks ago from the dreaded Blizzard company, before all this exploit nonsense hit DDO. I was done with Diablo 3 last year when my account got hacked by some putz. I Took a break from DDO for a bit. Went and fooled around in Neverwinter only to realize fast it was just another pay to win cash grab of a game. The exploits from the community and the lack of action from the devs pretty much killed the game. All they really cared about was Astral shard purchases and zen . The game declined and turned into a bunch of gold spammers fast.

I played some xbox games. Some pc games. Nothing in the MMO realm because i was kinda sick of the cash grabs around every corner. Then last week I decided to come back to DDO and see whats up. Reconnect with some old friends and kill some baddies. Maybe start the grind up once again for loot, xp, raids and epic mumbo jumbo. Upon checking my email for purchase order i finally got around to seeing what that message from Blizzard was all about...

Here it is. I was kinda shocked to say the least. Blizzard doing away with its cash cow?

http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr106/badbob117/blizzard_zpscb375de1.jpg (http://s474.photobucket.com/user/badbob117/media/blizzard_zpscb375de1.jpg.html)

For once i agree with them and i think these lame real money Auction houses do nothing but cause trouble for Games like Diablo, DDO and Neverwinter. These games are supposed to be about killing bad guys and ransacking their treasure. Every game i played with a real money auction house where we could purchase virtual junk ended up with its fair share of negative consequences. Once they add this feature the game gets tainted, Cheapened and cheesy as heck. Dungeons and Dragons online is no exception. It creates a rift in the community. A two tier system so to speak. Those with their big credit cards and those without. It also causes a influx of people willing to exploit to bypass paying real money for pixels.

Do away with it. It tarnishes the game. For once i agree with Blizzard! They are doing away with their dirty cash grab tactics and i think Turbine should do the same. Devs Time can be spent on better things rather then all this astral shard nonsense!

You guys and girls at Turbine should go back to your roots as well. Make money by selling us wicked quests and raids with tons of new bad guys hording their awesome loot. That is all we want! To play a game and reap our just rewards. It is pretty simple really. The direction the game has went since ASAH is pretty bleak! Just my 2 cents after coming back and seeing the economy in shambles in a game used to love. Dev time wasted once again on stuff 90% of the player base could care less about. Nothing good will ever come of a real money AH. At least not for us players!

I Tried the new expansion. Looted some boring new loot and was underwhelmed as a whole after completing it. I could not help but think to myself how much better it could be if the devs focused less on cash grabs and more on game play. The game is messed up right now and i personally think Turbine should re-evaluate their economic choices. I Have not even been back a week and the game feels stale already. The new Expansion was no where near the caliber of what Motu was! The poor choices of Turbine as a whole has really effected the game and it has to stop! Turbine needs to go back to its roots of being a game company and not a zen/tp/store/AS business. It is really starting to show in the lack of quality quests, loot and monsters! It is a pretty sad state of affairs! Smarten up Turbine!

Anyway that is my bi-annual rant for the year on these forums. Good questing and peace out y'all!


I would bet that TURBINE would love to get back to the basics. Unfortuantely, Warner Borthers holds the purse strings, and Warner Demands Profit. So, Turbine is forced down this road in order to insure it's existance. If Turbine can't turn a profit, WB will shut them down and won't give it a second thought. AND once Turbine is gone, the game that I love will be gone.

I'm willing to put up with some of this out of the box nonsense if it means my game will stick around for me to continue playing.

When we feel the need to bash Turbine, we need to keep in the back of our mind that Warner Brothers is the Puppet Master here.

[Forzah]

I would bet that TURBINE would love to get back to the basics. Unfortuantely, Warner Borthers holds the purse strings, and Warner Demands Profit. So, Turbine is forced down this road in order to insure it's existance. If Turbine can't turn a profit, WB will shut them down and won't give it a second thought. AND once Turbine is gone, the game that I love will be gone.

I'm willing to put up with some of this out of the box nonsense if it means my game will stick around for me to continue playing.

When we feel the need to bash Turbine, we need to keep in the back of our mind that Warner Brothers is the Puppet Master here.

It's questionable whether the ASAH really contributes towards profits in the long run. In the short run it probably does, but in the long run, probably not.

[Ashlayna]

There are countless people that fit "fanboi" title that go on rants everytime someone wants to change anything for the better. Change ed's for less grind. Evil. Get rid of the cashtral shard exchange. Evil. The list goes on and on. It's pointless to try to make legitimate suggestions here there are too many fanbois ready to defend turbines maidenhood like white knights to the death.

You know, unlike others that want to raise a big fuss about "I'm leaving", I tend to just disappear, then reappear later. You'll notice, if you check my post history, that I have a very long lapse between posts from the last time I walked away, and this current return. Why? Because there's no need to raise a fuss about "I'm burned out and going to something else until I burn out there, and then somewhere else after that".

That to say this; they can ditch the ASAH any time they want to, but since you brought it up, the latest incarnation of "I don't want to play the EDs as designed, change it or I'll quit(even though I refuse to spend any money on the game ever) is evidence that people want stuff handed to them, not that it's really all that bad of a design. At least the last time that came up, people would still have to grind for their twists. This time, they'll just be handed those too. What's next, hit 20 and get an xp stone that takes you to 28 "because the grind is unfun"? Isn't that exactly why Otto's boxes et al exist now?

[Chai]

Hmmmm those people would have done the same thng if there was no shard exchange(Unless there was a way to dupe actual astral shards that i missed). Kinda only proves that people will cheat to get easy free stuff, in fact isn't that one of the reasons those auction houses even work ?
But if you're right i'll be more than happy to see any real money auction houses gone, i'm just not so optimistic.

Right, what it proves is that people aren't as laa dee daa about supporting the current cash grab system as many would have us believe. If they were they would have bought grind circumvention rather than use a loophole to get it free. They will support the easy, until the easier comes along, then we see how loyal they were to the easy which they appeared to support previously.

[Forzah]

Right, what it proves is that people aren't as laa dee daa about supporting the current cash grab system as many would have us believe. If they were they would have bought grind circumvention rather than use a loophole to get it free. They will support the easy, until the easier comes along, then we see how loyal they were to the easy which they appeared to support previously.

Supporting P2W mechanics and exploiting are two unrelated subjects. If you are willing to pay for something but is just is easily available for free, then simple economic theory says you are going to take it for free. It has nothing to do with supporting P2W.

[Antiguo]

How is this not trashing Turbine?

Stating facts is not trashing anyone.

Lets get real, the time used to develop the ASAH is wasted, the new loot system and new named loot is booring and pityful, the economic choices of Turbine, focusing on moneygrabbing astral shards schemes instead good content, are rather poor, and this expansion cant even compare whit MoTU.

The game is still great, dont get me wrong, but lately Turbine decisions are being pretty bad. Getting rid of the ASAH would be a nice turning point i say.

[Forzah]

Stating facts is not trashing anyone.

Lets get real, the time used to develop the ASAH is wasted, the new loot system and new named loot is booring and pityful, the economic choices of Turbine, focusing on moneygrabbing astral shards schemes instead good content, are rather poor, and this expansion cant even compare whit MoTU.

The game is still great, dont get me wrong, but lately Turbine decisions are being pretty bad. Getting rid of the ASAH would be a nice turning point i say.

I see only opinions there.

[Pandir]

Right, what it proves is that people aren't as laa dee daa about supporting the current cash grab system as many would have us believe. If they were they would have bought grind circumvention rather than use a loophole to get it free. They will support the easy, until the easier comes along, then we see how loyal they were to the easy which they appeared to support previously.

Who really said people actually support P2W. They use it because it's an easy way to get what they want. The easiest way to get something is obviously free and withoout effort, so it just makes sense people use that over the ASAH.

I like Otto's boxes, i like them because i don't like heroic leveling too much, i prefer the epics. If they weren't offered i probably wouldn't finish more than 2 TR's. I have no loyality to the Otto's boxes though if they give me a free 1-20 button on character creation i'll use that and skip the boxes:P.

[Antiguo]

I see only opinions there.

Dispute them then.

[Antiguo]

Who really said people actually support P2W. They use it because it's an easy way to get what they want.

YOU JUST DID!

If they didnt support P2W they wouldn't use it, i mean... DUH.

[Ashlayna]

Stating facts is not trashing anyone.

Lets get real, the time used to develop the ASAH is wasted, the new loot system and new named loot is booring and pityful, the economic choices of Turbine, focusing on moneygrabbing astral shards schemes instead good content, are rather poor, and this expansion cant even compare whit MoTU.

The game is still great, dont get me wrong, but lately Turbine decisions are being pretty bad. Getting rid of the ASAH would be a nice turning point i say.

Let's do get real: There are people all over the forums going on and on about how the new loot tables are killing older raid gear they've been using for years, then saying that that loot is boring. So while we're getting real, if the gear is good enough to replace what they've been using for years, how boring is it really? In fact, since this does seem to be the case, I'd say the new loot is going a long way to actually impacting the ASAH.

[Forzah]

Dispute them then.

I agree with most of them, but that doesn't make them facts.



the time used to develop the ASAH is wasted.

Could or could not be true, depends on how you define wasted and on Turbines goals. It has made Turbine short term profits, so from that perspective it's probably not wasted time.



the new loot system and new named loot is booring and pityful.

I agree, but how can you objectively claim something is boring and pitiful? That is an opinion. A fact is that there are fewer prefixes and affixes available and that some of the new effects are stronger than what is currently available on named items.



the economic choices of Turbine, focusing on moneygrabbing astral shards schemes instead good content, are rather poor

They are focussing on both at the same time; I can't even tell whether the one goes at the expense of the other. And what does poor mean? Poor for the quality of the game? Poor for profits? All questionable.



, and this expansion cant even compare whit MoTU.

Considering there are fewer quests and no raid I guess you could claim this. But then again, it's still hard to compare two expansions. What would you measure by?

[Antiguo]

Let's do get real: There are people all over the forums going on and on about how the new loot tables are killing older raid gear they've been using for years, then saying that that loot is boring. So while we're getting real, if the gear is good enough to replace what they've been using for years, how boring is it really? In fact, since this does seem to be the case, I'd say the new loot is going a long way to actually impacting the ASAH.

Yeah, i'm pretty sure all this spreadsheet kind of loot whit only 10 or 11 different mutations is so exciting you feel like on fire.....

The only reason the new loot is "killing raid gear" (and i have no problem whit that, new loot MUST kill OLD raid gear) is because it has bigger numbers on it.

The problem whit the loot is not the "big numbah!!", it's the lack of variety, go look for that thread whit the list of vanished old loot mutations and come back telling me the new look is exciting and fun, i dare you.

[Pandir]

YOU JUST DID!

If they didnt support P2W they wouldn't use it, i mean... DUH.

Uh i think we have a disagreement on the word support. I don't buy from my supermarket because i want to support it i buy there because it offers something i want.

[zDragonz]

Random Loot: The only weapons I have been able to sell so far is Wraps. The rest of the weapons do not sell even though they may be awesome.

Why is this?

[Qhualor]

Stating facts is not trashing anyone.

Lets get real, the time used to develop the ASAH is wasted, the new loot system and new named loot is booring and pityful, the economic choices of Turbine, focusing on moneygrabbing astral shards schemes instead good content, are rather poor, and this expansion cant even compare whit MoTU.

The game is still great, dont get me wrong, but lately Turbine decisions are being pretty bad. Getting rid of the ASAH would be a nice turning point i say.

Right. Get more players out there questing again and maybe it would help the lfm. Fix drop rates to be more fair and make grind for loot worth the time and effort. Do a pass with all epic gear to make at least the majority of it worth aiming for and grinding for. Make epic items actually better than random loot. All these things fixed or changed makes for a happier player base and Turbine can still profit without the P2WAH.

[Qhualor]

Random Loot: The only weapons I have been able to sell so far is Wraps. The rest of the weapons do not sell even though they may be awesome.

Why is this?

Because everyone is looting the same stuff. There's not enough variety. Random loot invalidates some named gear.

[Antiguo]

Uh i think we have a disagreement on the word support. I don't buy from my supermarket because i want to support it i buy there because it offers something i want.

Meaning you support that mmmmm lets say toilet paper over the other brand of toilet paper next to it.

Dont forget there's a choice here, if you use the box you are chosing not to level those levels questing, so you are supporting the use of the box over the questing. If you were against the use of the boxes (meaning you didnt support them), you wouldnt use them. Simple.

[Chai]

Uh i think we have a disagreement on the word support. I don't buy from my supermarket because i want to support it i buy there because it offers something i want.

You are supporting it by buying from it.

[Ashlayna]

Yeah, i'm pretty sure all this spreadsheet kind of loot whit only 10 or 11 different mutations is so exciting you feel like on fire.....

The only reason the new loot is "killing raid gear" (and i have no problem whit that, new loot MUST kill OLD raid gear) is because it has bigger numbers on it.

The problem whit the loot is not the "big numbah!!", it's the lack of variety, go look for that thread whit the list of vanished old loot mutations and come back telling me the new look is exciting and fun, i dare you.

If you've been following that thread, you'd know I've already been there. So what you're saying is people don't know what they want? The new stuff is good enough to replace their old gear, which they used while all the missing permutations on the loot existed, but them being missing is boring? My take is the old, and not so old affixes do need to return. That's rather off topic to this discussion, but since you brought it up, if it's so boring, how is it that those protesting loudest are actually using it? So hear you are, attempting to shout me down about this, just as somebody else attempted to shout me down about some of the not so old gear still being BiS for me. So I guess, despite your claims, that I do indeed prefer some of the older loot over some of the newer. We were supposed to be getting real, not basing the dialog on your misconceived perceptions. These are subjective, and therefore cannot be real to everyone, since everyone's opinions will vary.

There are also lots of posts about how raid gear shouldn't be so easily replaced. But, you and I do agree on this, to a point, new content, with new gear/gear types should make some older gear obsolete, just not all of it.

[Xianio]

People are getting fed up with cash grab mechanics in MMOs, and I cant wait til it gets to the point where companies have to re-tether the financial success of the division to the quality of the game itself.

That's never going to happen. The days of "pure" MMO cash mechanics (I'm defining that as buy the box, pay the monthly, buy the expansion and nothing in between) is gone and except in very rare circumstances will never come back.

Every MMO with a trading mechanic (ie: all of them) has a very busy external market. This market operates in both digital currency (I'll trade you SwordX for StaffY) and also real currency (I'll give you 20 bucks for SwordX). Old MMO's didn't have a method for inserting themselves into that interaction and didn't know if it was really worth it to do so. The industrialization of gold farmers, particularly in WoW, showed game companies loud and clear how lucrative those markets could be.

Due to that, MMO's have been trying to get themselves into the "extras" and "meta markets" ever since. These come in the form of "cash grabs" in many cases. By giving people the option to go through a trusted source vs a potentially unreliable source, a good many will choose the more expensive reliable source. These are your cash shops/shard exchanges etc etc.

Further, thanks primarily to Riot Games, the F2P model has been shown to have an absolutely outrageous profit margin when done correctly. While Turbine has done a decent job of it for a game that wasn't designed with F2P specifically in mind, the marketing theory behind it is still supported well.

For lots of people time is the resource they have very little of. I, for example, work 45-55 hours a week, have a wife, a dog, play sports a few times a week and have occasional family obligations. For me, buying a sword of teh aw3s0me for 20 bucks makes a LOT more sense then spending 6-7 hours grinding for one.

Really, it's just to open MMO's to another market. Traditional MMO "elites" have LOTS of time available giving them the resource needed to be the original masters of the content. A secondary market of gamers that are busy, working professionals also like the game but simply don't have the time to see the games full content without a side market (ie: cash to catch up).

For MMO's to truly optimize and cater to the whole playerbase they need to give working professionals a reason to buy expansions ie: ways to finish the existing content. Cash shops are the primary means to accomplishing this.

So, don't expect cash shops and "hidden" cash shops to ever stop. If anything, MMO's will probably become more centered around these systems once Riot Games goes public (if they do) and makes their mountains of cash public knowledge.

TLDR: Cash shops and "money grabs" will never go away. You might as well get used to them.

[Antiguo]

Right. Get more players out there questing again and maybe it would help the lfm. Fix drop rates to be more fair and make grind for loot worth the time and effort. Do a pass with all epic gear to make at least the majority of it worth aiming for and grinding for. Make epic items actually better than random loot. All these things fixed or changed makes for a happier player base and Turbine can still profit without the P2WAH.

Exactly, and add back some of the rare prefixes/suffixes vanished, woundrous should mean something rare and amazing, not +2 to item level.

[Ashlayna]

Meaning you support that mmmmm lets say toilet paper over the other brand of toilet paper next to it.

Dont forget there's a choice here, if you use the box you are chosing not to level those levels questing, so you are supporting the use of the box over the questing. If you were against the use of the boxes (meaning you didnt support them), you wouldnt use them. Simple.

It's interesting that you bring this up. I used a box on my FvS's first life, and found that, despite the quick advancement in levels, I still had to run those quests, for favor. So what time did I really save?

[Chai]

Who really said people actually support P2W. They use it because it's an easy way to get what they want. The easiest way to get something is obviously free and withoout effort, so it just makes sense people use that over the ASAH.

I like Otto's boxes, i like them because i don't like heroic leveling too much, i prefer the epics. If they weren't offered i probably wouldn't finish more than 2 TR's. I have no loyality to the Otto's boxes though if they give me a free 1-20 button on character creation i'll use that and skip the boxes:P.

Most of the excuse of supporting it from those who disagreed with me over 3 years of threads on the topic was that it makes Turbine money. Then the mass waffling of 2012-2013 occurred and people got a whole bunch of stuff free - thus invalidating the excuse that it makes Turbine money when some of them tried to justify what they did, even going as far as using "Turbines poor decision making and implementation" as an excuse. If they didnt support those decisions in the first place, Turbine would have had to change their tune on them much earlier on.

[Antiguo]

It's interesting that you bring this up. I used a box on my FvS's first life, and found that, despite the quick advancement in levels, I still had to run those quests, for favor. So what time did I really save?

Yeah, i too think that using the boxes is a pretty bad idea.

[Pandir]

Meaning you support that mmmmm lets say toilet paper over the other brand of toilet paper next to it.

Dont forget there's a choice here, if you use the box you are chosing not to level those levels questing, so you are supporting the use of the box over the questing. If you were against the use of the boxes (meaning you didnt support them), you wouldnt use them. Simple.

Ok Toilet paper. I don't buy brands, if the one supermarket has toiletpaper in acceptable price/quality i buy there if they one next door has a better offer next week i'll use that one.

Same here. If they didn't offer the boxes i'd sit at my 2 TR's and be about as happy. The boxes enable me to do a few more past lifes without being too bored(And no except for a 90% reduction in XP even a first life curve wouldn't change that). An offer i find acceptable for the price.
The shard AH i find not acceptable in cost to benefit, nor was the bigbys boxes so i don't get them.

My main point was about that has nothing to do with support or loyality to the P2W stuff, just people taking advantage of an offer they find acceptable. The cheat was just the better offer.
As such i have not much loyality to Turbine or DDO either, they just offer a game i happen to enjoy at the moment.

[Pandir]

Most of the excuse of supporting it from those who disagreed with me over 3 years of threads on the topic was that it makes Turbine money. Then the mass waffling of 2012-2013 occurred and people got a whole bunch of stuff free - thus invalidating the excuse that it makes Turbine money when some of them tried to justify what they did, even going as far as using "Turbines poor decision making and implementation" as an excuse. If they didnt support those decisions in the first place, Turbine would have had to change their tune on them much earlier on.

Well it does make Turbine money otherwise they wouldn't do it, but if the actual justification was they do it to support Turbine by giving them money, well i would not believe that either.

[Chai]

That's never going to happen. The days of "pure" MMO cash mechanics (I'm defining that as buy the box, pay the monthly, buy the expansion and nothing in between) is gone and except in very rare circumstances will never come back.

Every MMO with a trading mechanic (ie: all of them) has a very busy external market. This market operates in both digital currency (I'll trade you SwordX for StaffY) and also real currency (I'll give you 20 bucks for SwordX). Old MMO's didn't have a method for inserting themselves into that interaction and didn't know if it was really worth it to do so. The industrialization of gold farmers, particularly in WoW, showed game companies loud and clear how lucrative those markets could be.

Due to that, MMO's have been trying to get themselves into the "extras" and "meta markets" ever since. These come in the form of "cash grabs" in many cases. By giving people the option to go through a trusted source vs a potentially unreliable source, a good many will choose the more expensive reliable source. These are your cash shops/shard exchanges etc etc.

Further, thanks primarily to Riot Games, the F2P model has been shown to have an absolutely outrageous profit margin when done correctly. While Turbine has done a decent job of it for a game that wasn't designed with F2P specifically in mind, the marketing theory behind it is still supported well.

For lots of people time is the resource they have very little of. I, for example, work 45-55 hours a week, have a wife, a dog, play sports a few times a week and have occasional family obligations. For me, buying a sword of teh aw3s0me for 20 bucks makes a LOT more sense then spending 6-7 hours grinding for one.

Really, it's just to open MMO's to another market. Traditional MMO "elites" have LOTS of time available giving them the resource needed to be the original masters of the content. A secondary market of gamers that are busy, working professionals also like the game but simply don't have the time to see the games full content without a side market (ie: cash to catch up).

For MMO's to truly optimize and cater to the whole playerbase they need to give working professionals a reason to buy expansions ie: ways to finish the existing content. Cash shops are the primary means to accomplishing this.

So, don't expect cash shops and "hidden" cash shops to ever stop. If anything, MMO's will probably become more centered around these systems once Riot Games goes public (if they do) and makes their mountains of cash public knowledge.

TLDR: Cash shops and "money grabs" will never go away. You might as well get used to them.

I dont believe this at all, and any objective observation of the industry will tell you that these cash grab mechanics have reached their peak as far as success is concerned. It has reached its saturation point. Yes there are still whales who will pay thousands of RL dollars for a pixelated island in a pixelated ocean somewhere in cyberspace, but what we are seeing is the more blatent the cash grab mechanics become, the less and less support they receive. Real money auction house was pretty blatent.

It may be a while yet, but Im thinking we will see a resurgence of sub only, or sub games with cash shop lite. Enough games have been created around cash shop mechanics now where the quality of the game doesnt improve, but the quantity of opportunities within the cash shop "improves" - and hopefully sooner than later companies will figure out that if they want long term users they will have to tether the financial success of the company to the quality and quality increase of the game itself, rather than keeping it tethered to cash shop opportunities. When they do not do this the game becomes a revolving door for people to play for a much smaller time than they would in the traditional MMO days, then bounce when it is no longer entertaining. When the quality of the game is not the focus, it doesnt stay entertaining for any length of time that could be deemed "long term" for any significant percentage of users.

[Forzah]

Most of the excuse of supporting it from those who disagreed with me over 3 years of threads on the topic was that it makes Turbine money. Then the mass waffling of 2012-2013 occurred and people got a whole bunch of stuff free - thus invalidating the excuse that it makes Turbine money when some of them tried to justify what they did, even going as far as using "Turbines poor decision making and implementation" as an excuse. If they didnt support those decisions in the first place, Turbine would have had to change their tune on them much earlier on.

That lame excuse is just ********, man. You exploit because you can get something for free that would otherwise cost time or money, or simply because it's fun. Not because of the direction of the game.

Moreover, it makes perfect sense for P2W supporters to exploit. They make an economic decision to buy the item. Suppose a customer values the item at $5 and it costs $3, then his "utility" for buying the item is $2. When it is free his "utility" is $5. As we can expect the customer to be a utility maximizer, it makes sense for him to exploit.

People who are disgusted by P2W may have a negative utility for the item, say -$5. They are not willing to exploit, because it does not increase the fun they get out of the game. And then there's the people who thought $3 was too expensive, which will also get the item for free from exploiting.

So for anyone who is willing to pay for a feature, exploiting makes sense economically.

[Pandir]

That lame excuse is just ********, man. You exploit because you can get something for free that would otherwise cost time or money, or simply because it's fun. Not because of the direction of the game.



That's actually what mainly bothered me about the exploit, if you exploit you exploit doesn't affect me much but if you're stupid enough to get caught then accept the consequences and don't come crying and trying to shift the blame to someone else.

[Xianio]

I dont believe this at all, and any objective observation of the industry will tell you that these cash grab mechanics have reached their peak as far as success is concerned. It has reached its saturation point. Yes there are still whales who will pay thousands of RL dollars for a pixelated island in a pixelated ocean somewhere in cyberspace, but what we are seeing is the more blatent the cash grab mechanics become, the less and less support they receive. Real money auction house was pretty blatent.

This is blatantly untrue. Your "objective observation" simply isn't supported by facts. Sorry man.

Lets start with the primary reason "F2P + microtransaction buy in" is becoming the #1 method for always-on always-growing games.
1) Riot Games
Riot Games is a 3-4 year old start up (measuring from launch) that has, for the first time, demonstrated the extreme strength of a true F2P + Microtransaction payment model. In less than 5 years Riot Games has gone from a company owing money to many investors to a (estimated) billion-dollar company. With 5 million concurrent players a day and 150,000 years worth of time spent in LoL per year the 10-20% "regular purchasers" they report in the micro-transaction field is notably greater than what traditional MMO's have been able to accomplish through monthly fees.

2) The move to micro-transaction across media
Micro transactions have grown substantially in the past 3 years. In the past, small studios would regularly create gated content the could be accessed with small amounts of money and regularly considered the old model of P2W. Now, major game studios including Sony (Dead Space), Capcom (DLC), Blizzard and MMO's across the board are adopting F2P + microtransactions.

3) The average age of gamers is increasing.
The average age of a video game player is now reported to be 36-38 years old, white male in dual income households 1 or fewer children. In the upcoming years this will increase as will the number of children per household (for this primary demographic). This is a HUGE incentive to find ways to give gamers the same 'thrills' they had before without losing out on the 16-25 "all the time in the world" market. One of the best ways to accomplish this is through smart P2W (which is quickly becoming Pay to Rush, not win because that's smarter).

Finally, F2P economic theory is receiving PhD level attention in economic departments and psychology departments in some of the most forward thinking universities. This will likely result in new methods being explored in the upcoming years.

Remember, gaming is the single most lucrative entertainment media in the world and a single company just figured out how to make more money, faster than anyone had ever done before. This is HUGE and will change the fundamental landscape of payment models in gaming.

Want to vanguard the old way? Go ahead, but you're in for frustration, not vindication.

[firemedium_jt]

There has always been play to win since China has these kids working 18 hours a day for 3 weeks in a row.

Turbine is tapping into the gold market and putting the Chinese out of business. It is kinda sick what these Chinese workers do. They use to never have days off, but the suicide rate was bad, so now they get them some sun once in a while. I think it is one day off every 3 weeks. You think playing MMOs can be bad. Imagine if it was your job 18 hours a day for weeks without rest.

Turbine is undercutting these 3rd party companies and they should. It is a fine balance, but Turbine should be getting the money instead of these 3rd party companies. I think they have balanced things out well. However the latest gear release has gimped too much raid gear. A little too much power creep. I am however glad Bloodstones are not a big deal now. I like some power creep cause it means you do not need to grind so much. Just be patient. We need some level 30 raids. Maybe some raids already in the game with some new loot revamped with new lvl 30 loot in power. The content needs to adjust. Maybe EH is too easy.

The game has to change to keep players interested. Try not to get them to leave. There will be mistakes along the way. A little too much here or there, but I think the goal is to keep things interesting. At least Turbine is fair IMHO when they make major changes they give out the LRs.

I like the Raid timers in the free economy, and the mana pots from the DDO store. I like what I am seeing int he ASAH cause I think it is pretty funny. The prices are not for the average player that knows the game and what things are worth.

Some people like me don't have the time that 15 year olds have. Maybe the teenagers should get a job and buy stuff from the game instead of wasting their time grinding all the time. Go get a job. Learn something new. Meet people. Learn to social interact face to face instead of electronically. Maybe go on a date. No trolling here. This is important life stuff.

[bsquishwizzy]

Nope, definitely not.

This isn't a game play decision, it's an economic and political decision. The nice thing for Blizzard is that it's also very easy PR to say "hey we're doing it for you" when that's really not the driving factor at all.

Something important to note about this choice is that the removal will occur shortly before D3 enters the console market. This is the most likely reason for the removal of the AH. Consoles are significantly more complicated economically as Blizzard now needs to deal with a 3rd part intermediary in addition to another layer of transactions (country/currency for the PC which is currently at least 4-5 markets and then double that as consoles would require their own unique systems).

What's more, Sony may not be willing to give the Blizzard team the constant stream of info they need to safeguard credit card info for which they would be liable.

If the game consoles you were referring to were something like the Atari 2600, I would definitely agree with you. However, the mechanics of putting in purchasing systems into something like Xbox 360 or Xbox One are relatively trivial. In fact, many of these systems will be online-dependent for the unforeseeable future. At least that’s where the market is going. And it is going there at light speed. So if you are making a console game, you want “in” on that revenue stream.

Furthermore – admittedly not knowing the internal details of how Blizzard builds their software – the clearing house for payment information is generally not maintained by Blizzard, nor would they be the one who develops the transactions to update payment info into their system – that would be most likely contracted out. And there are a lot of places that have expertise in this area.

Doing a little research on how Blizzard implemented transactions, they took a fairly hefty chunk of percentage from each transaction (I think something like 15%), where maybe 2 – 6% is really maybe the overhead. That leaves about 9% in revenue for basically doing nothing.

Given the uproar that preceded Diablo III by their fanatical (unhinged) fan-base, I have little reason to doubt their explanation on this matter.

Granted, I am not a member of the team at Blizzard that handles these things, and so I am speaking from ignorance. However, I have a decent knowledge how those system work, who holds the data, how the data is processed, and how some of these systems interact.

[bsquishwizzy]

That's never going to happen. The days of "pure" MMO cash mechanics (I'm defining that as buy the box, pay the monthly, buy the expansion and nothing in between) is gone and except in very rare circumstances will never come back.



I've been in the software industry for over two decades now. The term "will never come back" is one I stopped using about 10 - 15 years ago.

The cash mechanics of an MMO are subjects to trends like any other system. Micro-transactions sound great, but they are heavily reliant upon pushing people into buying every little item they need to play the game. And then when everyone jumps on board with that, someone comes along with this "radically new" idea of selling subscriptions. And then the trend changes.

Subscription systems have an advantage in that they player is paying for the game even if they are not playing it. Plus people will continue to maintain their subscriptions even when they don't play the game for months on end. it provides a stead stream of income that is not dependent on actual activity. The real key is making sure your subscription price is enough to generate a profit. Then again, making sure you set pricing accordingly to generate a profit is the key of ANY system.

The whole point is: never say never.

[Ykt]

Make money by selling us wicked quests and raids with tons of new bad guys hording their awesome loot. That is all we want!

Sorry but i'd rather spend my time playing hide n seek with my White Panther Creature Companion wearing a Top Hat Cosmetic Helmet!

That's what RPGs and DnD are all about.

[TBot1234]

3) The average age of gamers is increasing.
The average age of a video game player is now reported to be 36-38 years old

It's 30 according to the Entertainment Software Association: http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp

[Xianio]

If the game consoles you were referring to were something like the Atari 2600, I would definitely agree with you. However, the mechanics of putting in purchasing systems into something like Xbox 360 or Xbox One are relatively trivial.

Please note that I said economical and political, not technical. On the tech. end this is as simple as the current system they have in place. Which, while definitely not simple to create originally, shouldn't be overly difficult to bring over once already created (as both parties have done).

My claim isn't based on tech as that would be silly. Obviously they can do that, it's well demonstrated. My claim is based on expectations on contract negotiations, legal ramifications of console + PC market integration (something they've claimed to be trying for) and, while highly speculative, perhaps on Sony's spotty record on information security. I don't think anyone has trouble flipping the tech switch, I do think that the work required in acquiring the validation to exist across multiple media sources and marketplaces to be substantially more difficult. Primarily because this would be precedent setting in the industry - often something you want to aim to do with a new release with a high likelihood of purchases (like the RMAH/AH D3 release), thus safeguarding the initial cash investment.

While it's yet to be seen in D3 RMAH/AH did lasting damage to the Diablo brand, it's unlikely that the capital gains suffered over all. Like you said, a 9% profit on every transaction in addition to being PC game to sell the most units on release ever ensures that the Blizzard team took in a fair chunk of cash.

PS: When I say "never" I don't mean that we'll never see subscription-based gaming, as that model has been proven to be successful, but rather that "going back" will never be possible. The ebb and flow will occur but the market has gained a new tool to take money from the pockets of customers. The likelihood of that disappearing is next to 0. From now on it'll be a mixed marketplace, not a "subscription or bust" marketplace. That's what I meant, although in hindsight could have been worded better.

Edit: I apologize, I cannot recall where I read 36-38. I'll do a little digging but as I'm already wasting a lot of time when I should be working I don't expect to find it before this discussion is well and done.

[fredericko]

It is very shallow to post a single screenshot and try to make a point out of the single most controversial feature of one of the best selling games of all time (required internet connection was the most hated, but not controversial since there was zero controversy - no one liked it, period): Diablo 3's real money auction house (henceforth RMAH).

For starters, there used to be no bound gear whatsoever in D3, so all named loot could be sold.

Then, gear is 100% of your build in D3. D3 has automatic stat allocation, and you can swap each and every one of your skills at zero cost, anytime (you lose a chargeable buff if you do it in the middle of a quest, that's all).

Unlike DDO, where random and crafted loot has a place in nearly every toon, legendary / set items are where it's at in D3. Problem is, only half (or less) of named gear stats are fixed. The other are random. So you finally got that eSOS for your barbarian. Good for you. Except that instead of extra crit profile it has a +8 bonus to intelligence, and instead of a +10 enhancement bonus, it is only +6 with a %5 reduction of meteor swarm casting cost to compensate. (Blizzard is trying to fix this.) Now try to imagine how much someone would be willing to pay for that perfect eSOS, the one we all know. In case you're wondering a nearly perfect item sells for 400+ dollars.

To make matters worse, Blizzard officially acknowledged that item drop was adjusted (down, of course) because of the presence of an AH.

But above it all, AS are not real money. You add a RMAH, and people that do not play the game enter the scene. There are people who just snipe the gold AH for cheap items to resell at the RMAH, then buy cheap items at the RMAH to sell at the AH, then repeat. People who, simply put, spend zero hours ingame, literally, but make sure no one can find a good item at a decent price.

And of course bot farms. In D3 you don't need to click on gold to pick it up; you kill a mob, it drops some gold, you walk close to the gold pile and you pick it up. No need to open chests for gold farming, no need to browse your inventory for good items. There used to be bot farmer interviews up on youtube where a single gold farmer would explain how he set up and maintained a D3 200+ bot farm just to gather gold, then buy the best items at the AH, then repost them at the RMAH, to make a sizeable profit without any third party site or ingame advertising involved whatsoever.

TLDR: neither the game system, nor the loot system, nor the currency, allow for a direct comparison between RMAH and ASAH.

[bsquishwizzy]

Please note that I said economical and political, not technical. On the tech. end this is as simple as the current system they have in place. Which, while definitely not simple to create originally, shouldn't be overly difficult to bring over once already created (as both parties have done).

My claim isn't based on tech as that would be silly. Obviously they can do that, it's well demonstrated. My claim is based on expectations on contract negotiations, legal ramifications of console + PC market integration (something they've claimed to be trying for) and, while highly speculative, perhaps on Sony's spotty record on information security. I don't think anyone has trouble flipping the tech switch, I do think that the work required in acquiring the validation to exist across multiple media sources and marketplaces to be substantially more difficult. Primarily because this would be precedent setting in the industry - often something you want to aim to do with a new release with a high likelihood of purchases (like the RMAH/AH D3 release), thus safeguarding the initial cash investment.

Legal ramifications? And contract negotiations? There are none. The only issue would be transaction volume, and the ability to plug it into the system in question – the tech issue. And if Sony has a terrible track record on information security, it won’t matter if it is crappy on a console or on a PC – it is the same across platforms.

Now, you may have a point about Blizzard wanting to distribute on Playstation or Xbox, and that has some bearing on the subject. There may be platform-exclusive rights to the game (thereby edging the other out of that offering). Or, if they release it on multiple platforms, there might be some work to be done – on the back end – making the online cash transactions work within the framework of the platform (for example, maybe having payment routed through that Xbox Live nonsense). But that is neither political, or a matter of economics. And is, say, Microsoft was uncomfortable with the clearinghouse Blizzard used for their online transactions, then you might have a point. It then comes down to a matter of what they make more money on: the game itself, or the online transactions? My experience is: the online transactions. Because those have a longer lifespan than the actual game purchase. Purchasing the game is a one-time transaction. Paying for stuff over the next two- to three-years adds up quickly. And the fact is, even if someone pirates your software, you STILL make money from them via online transactions.



PS: When I say "never" I don't mean that we'll never see subscription-based gaming, as that model has been proven to be successful, but rather that "going back" will never be possible. The ebb and flow will occur but the market has gained a new tool to take money from the pockets of customers. The likelihood of that disappearing is next to 0. From now on it'll be a mixed marketplace, not a "subscription or bust" marketplace. That's what I meant, although in hindsight could have been worded better.

When I first started in software development, your programmer coded on a mainframe, the user accessed the mainframe via a terminal. This is commonly referred to as “Thin Client / Thick Server.” Then PCs came along, and people rushed headlong to put everything on a PC. Back then, it was referred to a “Thick Client.”

Then the Internet popped up, and HTML pages were all the rage. We then had a rush to put all applications on a web server somewhere, and access it through an Internet browser. Hence, the return to essentially “Thin Client / Thick Server.” And then someone started snorting funny substances, and we got N-tier somewhere along the way…

And this is just one example – I have about a dozen of them. Saying that going back will be impossible ignores trends altogether. It may not look exactly the way you thought it would – much like the Internet browser didn’t look like a dumb terminal (and the use of the term “dumb terminal” is a bit of a misnomer, as there were codes and whatnot for formatting and display, which is far from the definition of “dumb” from a technical aspect), but its application was almost EXACTLY that of a dumb terminal. It didn’t do edits on-the-fly, and your transaction had to take a round-trip to the server before they actuall meant anything. It was a “dumb terminal” on sterioids…but still basically a “dumb terminal” nonetheless.

So, again, never say never.

[bsquishwizzy]

I want to also hammer this home: whether console or PC, paying for services online is here for the time being. The trend now is for giving away the software, and making your money on the services because the latter has far less overhead than the former.

[legendkilleroll]

i dont like the shard exchange, prices on there are a joke

I dont like any pay features tbh, cosmetics are fine but raid timers, used to be 2 and half months if you wanted your 20th reward now people just buy timers do 20th in few days then complain there is nothing to do

Ottos/bigby, getting the ones with motu was cool, try get people ready for when expansion hit now its just buying a past life

This is ofcourse my opinion and maybe not having money to throw around is part of the reason but i play games to achieve something, earn something, seems now you only need money and you can get everything in game :(

[Xianio]

And this is just one example – I have about a dozen of them. Saying that going back will be impossible ignores trends altogether. It may not look exactly the way you thought it would – much like the Internet browser didn’t look like a dumb terminal (and the use of the term “dumb terminal” is a bit of a misnomer, as there were codes and whatnot for formatting and display, which is far from the definition of “dumb” from a technical aspect), but its application was almost EXACTLY that of a dumb terminal. It didn’t do edits on-the-fly, and your transaction had to take a round-trip to the server before they actuall meant anything. It was a “dumb terminal” on sterioids…but still basically a “dumb terminal” nonetheless.

This actually supports what I'm saying. I'm saying that additions fundamentally change and erase the old "as it was." Your "dumb terminal" may be back... but it's on steroids, thus changed/improved. The same can be shown in just about any market and means to earn. Old methods may return but they don't return exactly the way they were, they return with upgrades and workarounds learned during the time when they weren't the "go-to."

The lesson here being that nothing successful ever truly leaves the market. Even when "old becomes new" it's not as it was - it's as it was+


Legal ramifications? And contract negotiations? There are none.

None? That is crazy talk. You have a service that requires internet access that must be reached through a new intermediary (the PS4 in this case). To believe that Sony doesn't want a piece of that pie while giving their system over to manage it is naive. Further, any time you create a functional economy there are distinct legal/political ramifications you must navigate. While you don't have to "sign" something, you need to safeguard yourself against being liable because of X/Y/Z reason.

While it may seem like the console vs PC divide would be a negligible one, that's not necessarily the case. I doubt it is but I'm not a lawyer so I couldn't tell you with any degree of certainty.


And if Sony has a terrible track record on information security, it won’t matter if it is crappy on a console or on a PC

This also significantly over simplifies things. We already know that Sony has been hacked via their PS3 and lost hundreds of thousands of individuals credit card information. This was an enormous scandal only a few years ago. This isn't a universal "if it happens here it'll happen everywhere" issue. It's how information is accessed and who can be held responsible. After all, on the PC it is the individual who is liable as they maintain their own security systems. Consoles are maintained by the company that creates them, that's why Sony losing CC info is 100% Sony's liability, not the users.

[Chai]

This also significantly over simplifies things. We already know that Sony has been hacked via their PS3 and lost hundreds of thousands of individuals credit card information. This was an enormous scandal only a few years ago. This isn't a universal "if it happens here it'll happen everywhere" issue. It's how information is accessed and who can be held responsible. After all, on the PC it is the individual who is liable as they maintain their own security systems. Consoles are maintained by the company that creates them, that's why Sony losing CC info is 100% Sony's liability, not the users.

For this to be true, the entire DB of CCs would need to be kept on the console. Since its not, it isnt true. The event youre talking about was not compromised at the console level, or info traveling to and from, it was at the DB level, so in that case, the difference in console -vs- PC doesnt really play into it.

[Xianio]

It doesn't really matter what "level" it was at because the question of liability doesn't result entirely from flow of info.

When you put a credit card on a console you're engaging in a promise of trust that the information you've given (Sony here) will be safeguarded by them. If Sony licenses a product to use their system then, while using Sony's console the CC info becomes compromised there is a significant chance that Sony could be held liable for said failure to secure the information entrusted to them.

It's why they offered every customer free stuff in exchange for signing away the right to sue them over this issue (not that would actually be enough to stop people but it helps).

Like I said before, everything you do on the PC is your responsibility. If you download a virus, that sucks, for you. If you give away your credit card info, well, you shouldn't do that. Even if you have anti-virus or anti-theft software on your computer it's still your fault for providing that info/entry into your system. You're the king of your PC, for better or worse.

The same is not true with a console. That's why it matters.

Edit: What I mean may not be clear. Let me try another example.

Current setup: Your credit card info gets compromised you get ****ed and sue Blizzard. Blizzard now has to fend off a lawsuit which costs money and resources.
New setup: Your credit card info gets compromised you get ****ed and sue Sony. Sony claims Blizzard is partially liable as the compromise was in some way the result of their security. Sony now has the opportunity to distribute a % of the financial damages to Blizzard. Blizzard must defend themselves in court which costs money and resources.

That's why it's not the same when it's a console vs a PC. With PC's you don't sue the guy who made your computer when your info gets compromised. In consoles, you do.

[kned225]

I doubt it is but I'm not a lawyer so I couldn't tell you with any degree of certainty..

If u find a lawyer who can tell u anything with any degree of certainty, lemme know

[Thrudh]

There are countless people that fit "fanboi" title that go on rants everytime someone wants to change anything for the better. Change ed's for less grind. Evil. Get rid of the cashtral shard exchange. Evil. The list goes on and on. It's pointless to try to make legitimate suggestions here there are too many fanbois ready to defend turbines maidenhood like white knights to the death.

Interesting post. Seems to me the doombois far outnumber the fanbois on these forums. I don't think I've seen very many "fanbois" defending the ED system. You've seen countless numbers of fanbois on these forums?

Turbine said - "Hey, we're going to spread out the exp curve for TRs, and lower the total amount of exp needed for 20th level by 600k, and give you 20% daily first-time bonus, and raise the xp on these 15 quests that you guys have asked us to raise forever (Amrath and Cannith), and we're going lower the exp on 4 quests that we think give too much..."

Are we unthinking fanbois when we say "Hey, that sounds pretty good"

Or are YOU an unthinking doomboi when you see all that above and you post "You nerfed VOL!!! That's it, I'm taking a break from this game" (and you did post that, and of course, you didn't take a break)

Your opinions are highly suspect. You're so bitter you can't see good in anything Turbine does anymore.

[Xianio]

If u find a lawyer who can tell u anything with any degree of certainty, lemme know

Can, or will?

Zing :D

[Chai]

That lame excuse is just ********, man. You exploit because you can get something for free that would otherwise cost time or money, or simply because it's fun. Not because of the direction of the game.

Moreover, it makes perfect sense for P2W supporters to exploit. They make an economic decision to buy the item. Suppose a customer values the item at $5 and it costs $3, then his "utility" for buying the item is $2. When it is free his "utility" is $5. As we can expect the customer to be a utility maximizer, it makes sense for him to exploit.

People who are disgusted by P2W may have a negative utility for the item, say -$5. They are not willing to exploit, because it does not increase the fun they get out of the game. And then there's the people who thought $3 was too expensive, which will also get the item for free from exploiting.

So for anyone who is willing to pay for a feature, exploiting makes sense economically.

Its a blatent and quite literal contradiction in logic to blame Turbines lack of attention to the quality of the game as justification for exploiting, when the same folks doing so are the ones who supported all the machanics that allowed Turbine to untether the financial success of the game from the quality of the game itself, in favor of cash grab mechanics (causing the same deterioration of the quality of the game they are attempting to cite). On top of that, many of those guilty of this used the excuse that those mechanics make Turbine money as justification for supporting those mechanics, then turned around and made it so Turbine doesnt make money due to their exploiting.

[Chai]

Interesting post. Seems to me the doombois far outnumber the fanbois on these forums. I don't think I've seen very many "fanbois" defending the ED system. You've seen countless numbers of fanbois on these forums?

Turbine said - "Hey, we're going to spread out the exp curve for TRs, and lower the total amount of exp needed for 20th level by 600k, and give you 20% daily first-time bonus, and raise the xp on these 15 quests that you guys have asked us to raise forever (Amrath and Cannith), and we're going lower the exp on 4 quests that we think give too much..."

Are we unthinking fanbois when we say "Hey, that sounds pretty good"

Or are YOU an unthinking doomboi when you see all that above and you post "You nerfed VOL!!! That's it, I'm taking a break from this game" (and you did post that, and of course, you didn't take a break)

Your opinions are highly suspect. You're so bitter you can't see good in anything Turbine does anymore.

There are very few doom and gloomers or fanbois on this forum. There are more folks on this forum who use those labels on those they disagree with than there are folks who fit those labels.

[Vellrad]

There has always been play to win since China has these kids working 18 hours a day for 3 weeks in a row.

<snip>



I don't bellive in masses of people tormented by playing MMOs 24/7.

Most gold farmers are simply bots.

Sure, someone oversees them, but having someone grinding gold manually is much less eficcient than using bots/

[Xianio]

Ah, if only it was true.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2011/06/02/chinese-prisoners-forced-to-farm-world-of-warcraft-gold/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2011/06/02/chinese-prisoners-forced-to-farm-world-of-warcraft-gold/)

[uncleblue]

Interesting post. Seems to me the doombois far outnumber the fanbois on these forums. I don't think I've seen very many "fanbois" defending the ED system. You've seen countless numbers of fanbois on these forums?

Turbine said - "Hey, we're going to spread out the exp curve for TRs, and lower the total amount of exp needed for 20th level by 600k, and give you 20% daily first-time bonus, and raise the xp on these 15 quests that you guys have asked us to raise forever (Amrath and Cannith), and we're going lower the exp on 4 quests that we think give too much..."

Are we unthinking fanbois when we say "Hey, that sounds pretty good"

Or are YOU an unthinking doomboi when you see all that above and you post "You nerfed VOL!!! That's it, I'm taking a break from this game" (and you did post that, and of course, you didn't take a break)

Your opinions are highly suspect. You're so bitter you can't see good in anything Turbine does anymore.

OMG ty Trudh, I thought I was going insane for a while there. So many posters that think they know so much about how to run a game, and don't mind telling it like fact, and if anyone disagrees with them, they are labelled and insulted.

SO much negativity on these forums, lately, and I can attribute it to maybe FIVE bad apples stirring up trouble, constantly.

[Qhualor]

There are very few doom and gloomers or fanbois on this forum. There are more folks on this forum who use those labels on those they disagree with than there are folks who fit those labels.

exactly. what annoys me is that I will agree with a doomer in 1 thread than in the next thread I agree with the doomer talking like a fanbois. nobody is sticking to a side it seems anymore. when you agree with Thrudh, you know you have to start questioning the definition of fanbois. :)

[IronClan]

A couple things in this thread that seem to be popular notions but yet defy common sense.

A) Blizzard can't figure out how to do AH on consoles, or can not eliminate them for consoles while keeping the PC version (they are two separate code bases of course they can do this if they want)
B) they are "cashing out" by closing a popular source of revenue; they only lose cash by doing this.
C) People in DDO exploited recently because of the existence of a ASAH

I'm sorry but all of these notions contain backward causality, an unsupported premise and/or wishful thinking.

Occam's razor suggests that Blizz is shutting down D3's AH's because they have too much negative impact on the actual gameplay just as they state. The fact that the game suffers noticably because of the reasons they state; seems to lend credence to the idea. It shouldn't need credence, as it's friken obvious but apparently it does.

Personally I think them shutting down their AH's is an overreaction, if they simply put a mixture of bound loot in the game they would be fine, but D3 is a much flimsier and more shallow game than DDO, and thus it's core mechanics break much easier and much faster (I got about a month of replay value out of it, and yes largely because I could get end game equipment off the gold AH easier than I could by playing the game itself).

I really shouldn't have to explain why A B and C notional at best, but they got enough agreements in the early part of this thread that apparently I should: D3 has two code bases, the console version of D3 has an entirely separate control scheme and UI. Indeed the AH in D3 is a separate executable OUTSIDE OF THE GAME, it can be "down" while the game is up, and vice versa, (this is why it was possible at times for the D3 AH to not be able to show you your inventory to access your stuff to sell it) And frankly there's no reason a Console can't have a cash AH. The "complexty" cited is a chimera, EVERYONE who makes consoles loves money, and getting X percent of it is not something they would be against. Worst case scenario, they simply leave the cash AH out of the console version, for any console manufacturer that makes having it to too much of a pain... In fact they could even have used it as an exclusive marketing point "PS4 Diablo 3 gets exclusive PC style Auction houses". The nebulously defined "complexity" has never stopped developers before, 2 different types of DLC for PS3 and Xbox? but none for the Wii ? Sure why not, Phone apps with various functionality and the Wii not getting either, but the DS or Vita getting a version? Sure why not?.

And lastly the amount of backwards causality inherent in "we made thousands of Globes of imperial blood because: the Astral Shard AH and P2W" is staggering. Forget how many (all of them) of the games previous exploits happened without an ASAH; forget how many other MMO's with no cash AH or even cash shop have all suffered from exploits. In fact forget where the term "Exploit" originally became popularized in the MMO vernacular, the original "A title" commercial MMORPG, Ulitma Online which had it's in game economy permanently ruined FOREVER (no seriously even to this day (well up to a couple years ago anyway) everything in UO costs absurd amounts of money compared to what it was supposed to, even with the game down to a few tens of thousands of players) before anyone even SOLD GOLD ON EBAY... before there was even such a thing as "gold spammers" or third world countries employing their poor by farming gold in MMO sweat shops. I'm sorry to be a downer but come on some of you guys want to assign all that is evil to the Frankenstein of "P2W" so you only need to set up one torches and pitchforks mob even if it makes no sense.

[IronClan]

There are very few doom and gloomers or fanbois on this forum. There are more folks on this forum who use those labels on those they disagree with than there are folks who fit those labels.


Interesting post. Seems to me the doombois far outnumber the fanbois on these forums. I don't think I've seen very many "fanbois" defending the ED system. You've seen countless numbers of fanbois on these forums?

I'm not the president of DDO but I endorse these posts ;)

I'll even admit to being a little doom-ish at times and a little fan-ish at times.

[Xianio]

B) they are "cashing out" by closing a popular source of revenue; they only lose cash by doing this.

I'm sorry but all of these notions contain backward causality, an unsupported premise and/or wishful thinking.

Occam's razor suggests that Blizz is shutting down D3's AH's because they have too much negative impact on the actual gameplay just as they state.

You've only really reorganized the explanation I gave originally. Perhaps you didn't like the term "cashing out."

If you have low interest and player expectations on new players with a current system the means to fix that problem would be to remove the contentious system. By removing the P2W component and returning to a unit purchasing method I used the term "cashing out" to show that they're done with a continuous micro-transaction income in favour of a 1 time payout method.

Cashing out being the appropriate term as it comes from gambling. One doesn't cash out when they've got "all the money" available. They cash out when they believe that they've won with a strong margin and continuing on would likely result in a net loss.

So, yes, they are closing a popular revenue stream (ie: cashing out that revenue stream) in hopes that it will allow them to drive up sales for their console market.

Edit: After further rereading your post I'm coming to the conclusion that you must not be referring to my posts :S As the initial 1,2,3 steps represent the opposite of what I wrote. Derp. :D

[IronClan]

As for the original post: the idea of shutting down the AH in DDO is too dramatic, but the idea of lowering the amount of good loot that can be put in them; Maybe allowing EN items and making EH and EE items unsellable (but maybe allowing EH to me tradable between players while EE's are bound to character), maybe tagging "wondrous craftsmanship" items with "no AH" but letting players trade them, would help. Maybe make a third tier above wondrous, "ancient craftsmanship" that drops items 4ML's and allows for the most perfect loot rolls, that are account bound only?

There's plenty of ways to lower the negative impact that sellable loot has on replayability without throwing the baby out with the bath water. DDO's balance is not as bad as D3's was because DDO has raid loot that's never on the AH, and shards/seals, and named bound on acquire loot... These things tend to promote replay, and DDO wasn't as shallow a "pure loot" game as the rogue-like D3 is. IMO the recent trend of sellable bind on equip items has been bad for replay and one of the reasons the game is suffering such extreme pendulum swings of player inactivity between new content.

So DDO can learn a lesson from D3, but it doesn't need to go to that extreme, it just needs to tone down the sellable stuff and invent a new thing or two that encourages players to stick around and play between updates. Shroud and epic seal/shards used to be this mechanic, they could buff the old stuff up and epic Shroud or they can reinvent the wheel as they are prone to do, because the old dev's systems are terrible and the new systems are better because new dev's made them. Either way they need to address the massive attrition the game suffers from.

[badbob117]

Idk, maybe if that Email was from some other weird game not made by blizzard, peeps would not be so uptight. :p

Its like mentioning Iphone in a android forum. Or xbox in a ps forum. Some folks are diehard fanboys when it comes to this nonsense. Me personally i don't give a heck . I just grab what looks cool and use it, then tell it how i see it.

This game needs to change direction. When you spend 50 bucks on a new xpac and your done in a week, without any cool loot to speak of afterwords. No raids to kill time in, Then something is wrong with the development side of the game. They are focusing on the wrong stuff. This xpac sucked compared to MOTU and it shows! It was the same price to top it off.

Idk about you guys but I literally feel kinda ripped off by the new expansion. Yet last year i felt great after buying Motu. It kept me going all fall and winter and having a blast. Can you say the same for Shadow conspiracy? Walk in new explorer zones and some dude is offering to tp me to the quest entrance for 3 astral shards? What the heck happened here? They went from Qaulity content to cheese within a year!

I am more willing to spend my money on Quality over fluff any day of the week. Build those raids and quests and we will buy em. Leave the junk on the google play store where it belongs!

[Charononus]

As for the original post: the idea of shutting down the AH in DDO is too dramatic, but the idea of lowering the amount of good loot that can be put in them; Maybe allowing EN items and making EH and EE items unsellable (but maybe allowing EH to me tradable between players while EE's are bound to character), maybe tagging "wondrous craftsmanship" items with "no AH" but letting players trade them, would help. Maybe make a third tier above wondrous, "ancient craftsmanship" that drops items 4ML's and allows for the most perfect loot rolls, that are account bound only?

There's plenty of ways to lower the negative impact that sellable loot has on replayability without throwing the baby out with the bath water. DDO's balance is not as bad as D3's was because DDO has raid loot that's never on the AH, and shards/seals, and named bound on acquire loot... These things tend to promote replay, and DDO wasn't as shallow a "pure loot" game as the rogue-like D3 is. IMO the recent trend of sellable bind on equip items has been bad for replay and one of the reasons the game is suffering such extreme pendulum swings of player inactivity between new content.

So DDO can learn a lesson from D3, but it doesn't need to go to that extreme, it just needs to tone down the sellable stuff and invent a new thing or two that encourages players to stick around and play between updates. Shroud and epic seal/shards used to be this mechanic, they could buff the old stuff up and epic Shroud or they can reinvent the wheel as they are prone to do, because the old dev's systems are terrible and the new systems are better because new dev's made them. Either way they need to address the massive attrition the game suffers from.

I don't think most people want the ah itself to go, just the asah. That and to start making quest loot btcoa and btaoa instead of btcoe.

[Qhualor]

As for the original post: the idea of shutting down the AH in DDO is too dramatic, but the idea of lowering the amount of good loot that can be put in them; Maybe allowing EN items and making EH and EE items unsellable (but maybe allowing EH to me tradable between players while EE's are bound to character), maybe tagging "wondrous craftsmanship" items with "no AH" but letting players trade them, would help. Maybe make a third tier above wondrous, "ancient craftsmanship" that drops items 4ML's and allows for the most perfect loot rolls, that are account bound only?

There's plenty of ways to lower the negative impact that sellable loot has on replayability without throwing the baby out with the bath water. DDO's balance is not as bad as D3's was because DDO has raid loot that's never on the AH, and shards/seals, and named bound on acquire loot... These things tend to promote replay, and DDO wasn't as shallow a "pure loot" game as the rogue-like D3 is. IMO the recent trend of sellable bind on equip items has been bad for replay and one of the reasons the game is suffering such extreme pendulum swings of player inactivity between new content.

So DDO can learn a lesson from D3, but it doesn't need to go to that extreme, it just needs to tone down the sellable stuff and invent a new thing or two that encourages players to stick around and play between updates. Shroud and epic seal/shards used to be this mechanic, they could buff the old stuff up and epic Shroud or they can reinvent the wheel as they are prone to do, because the old dev's systems are terrible and the new systems are better because new dev's made them. Either way they need to address the massive attrition the game suffers from.

I could compromise with this and I think its a much better suggestion than what we currently have. P2WAH would be less P2W and if players wanted the best loot, they would have to run the quests to get it or just settle for the EN/EH version. but, that's pretty much how it is now though. players usually settle for EH and buy or trade for EE gear. i think there is more to come with the P2WAH, IMO.

just noticed you said AH. never mind if you meant the AH.

[IronClan]

just noticed you said AH. never mind if you meant the AH.

I mean both. As the same causality applies to both, they both dilute replay value. Both could be toned down by the same mechanic of not allowing EE gear to be purchased at all, make EH gear unsellable but possibly tradable player to player, and make EN sellable. Also have maybe half of new packs loot be bound on aquire. And I like my idea of Wondrous being account bound not sellable, or if they really want to allow those to be sold, make a new tier that's not sellable.

Right now the balance is too far to the side of allowing things to be sold, IMO it needs to be reeled back in... The old grindy Seal/shard/scroll system (when scrolls weren't trivial to get) was the right amount of grindy* (for DDO) was IMO a fairly good balance... People kept playing Epics... Oh hell I don't need any more argument than (I'll say it again) everyone repeat after me I've said this so many times now:

VON5-6 currently might be the most played raid in the game (certainly it's close)... all the proof anyone should need.

* (not grindy for 99.9% of the MMO's I've ever played, not even worthy of calling grind compared to most of them)

[erethizon]

Tons of money spent on it? Tons of people proved they were willing to undermine that and break the rules to get stuff free. People are getting fed up with cash grab mechanics in MMOs, and I cant wait til it gets to the point where companies have to re-tether the financial success of the division to the quality of the game itself.

That would require the players to be willing to walk away from their favorite game when it fails to be good enough. As long as we continue to support games that fail to deliver, games will continue to fail to deliver. Money is the only thing that matters.

[MrRoboto]

For once i agree with them and i think these lame real money Auction houses do nothing but cause trouble for Games like Diablo, DDO and Neverwinter. These games are supposed to be about killing bad guys and ransacking their treasure. Every game i played with a real money auction house where we could purchase virtual junk ended up with its fair share of negative consequences. Once they add this feature the game gets tainted, Cheapened and cheesy as heck. Dungeons and Dragons online is no exception. It creates a rift in the community. A two tier system so to speak. Those with their big credit cards and those without. It also causes a influx of people willing to exploit to bypass paying real money for pixels.

Do away with it. It tarnishes the game. For once i agree with Blizzard! They are doing away with their dirty cash grab tactics and i think Turbine should do the same. Devs Time can be spent on better things rather then all this astral shard nonsense!

You guys and girls at Turbine should go back to your roots as well. Make money by selling us wicked quests and raids with tons of new bad guys hording their awesome loot. That is all we want! To play a game and reap our just rewards. It is pretty simple really. The direction the game has went since ASAH is pretty bleak! Just my 2 cents after coming back and seeing the economy in shambles in a game used to love. Dev time wasted once again on stuff 90% of the player base could care less about. Nothing good will ever come of a real money AH. At least not for us players!

I Tried the new expansion. Looted some boring new loot and was underwhelmed as a whole after completing it. I could not help but think to myself how much better it could be if the devs focused less on cash grabs and more on game play. The game is messed up right now and i personally think Turbine should re-evaluate their economic choices. I Have not even been back a week and the game feels stale already. The new Expansion was no where near the caliber of what Motu was! The poor choices of Turbine as a whole has really effected the game and it has to stop! Turbine needs to go back to its roots of being a game company and not a zen/tp/store/AS business. It is really starting to show in the lack of quality quests, loot and monsters! It is a pretty sad state of affairs! Smarten up Turbine!

Anyway that is my bi-annual rant for the year on these forums. Good questing and peace out y'all!

Two tier system

What is wrong having a two tier system? It certainly gives more options in how you want to make your purchases, be it a premium guild boats, gold seal hirelings etc. It also helps to regulate each other. For example, If the astral shard ah price becomes too high, more people will shift to the platinum auction house.

Those with credit cards and those without

You dont need a credit card to be able to earn astral shard. You can always use your farmed points to buy astral shards. Now with the ability to re sell your bound to char on equip gears back to the astral shard auction house, its even easier to earn astral shards.

Influx of people willing to exploit to bypass paying real money for pixels

With the introduction of new ways of making money, there will always be new types of exploiters. This should not deter progress.

Tons of new bad guys hording their awesome loot

Isnt that the case already? I dont get what you are trying to say.

Economy in shambles

How is the economy is shambles? How do you define it? Yes its in its recovery stage now after the most recent exploit, but it certainly isnt broken. Its still pretty easy to make lots of money by anyone willing to try.

Nothing good will ever come of a real money AH

Ok, first of all, the shard exchange system isnt a real money auction house. You can be a 100% F2P player and still use its features to earn lots of shards.

[Charononus]

Ok, first of all, the shard exchange system isnt a real money auction house. You can be a 100% F2P player and still use its features to earn lots of shards.

Where do you think the shards come from the daily dice? People bought in and spent, as are just a form of real money.

[MrRoboto]

Where do you think the shards come from the daily dice? People bought in and spent, as are just a form of real money.

Its not a form of real money when u buy them from earned turbine points. You do realise points magically appear in ur account every 100 favour yeah?

[Charononus]

Its not a form of real money when u buy them from earned turbine points.

And do you think the market is full of that? The market is full of purchased shards with probably less than 1% of them earned from former daily dice rolls or people farming tp for them. Even if you haven't bought them, someone that bought the gear you sold did. 99% or more of as in circulation have been purchased with real money.

[MrRoboto]

And do you think the market is full of that? The market is full of purchased shards with probably less than 1% of them earned from former daily dice rolls or people farming tp for them. Even if you haven't bought them, someone that bought the gear you sold did. 99% or more of as in circulation have been purchased with real money.

Firstly, of all ur 1-99% earn-bought is most like a load of ****. Secondly, the point isnt how much bought shard is in regulation. The diff between a real money ah and the shard system is that you cant enter the rmah without actually spending real cash. This however, you can. Hence, its not a real money auction house. Its a shard exchange.

[Charononus]

Firstly, of all ur 1-99% earn-bought is most like a load of ****. Secondly, the point isnt how much bought shard is in regulation. The diff between a real money ah and the shard system is that you cant enter the rmah without actually spending real cash. This however, you can. Hence, its not a real money auction house. Its a shard exchange.

That is one of those distinctions that is great for court and legal matters but matters so little in ordinary life that most people would laugh at it.

[MrRoboto]

That is one of those distinctions that is great for court and legal matters but matters so little in ordinary life that most people would laugh at it.

Yes and the shard exchange isnt RMAH. However, i feel that i need to congratulate you on being able to dig out those numbers, since it must have been way up inside.

[Charononus]

Yes and the shard exchange isnt RMAH.

It's close enough outside a courtroom.

[zDragonz]

Because everyone is looting the same stuff. There's not enough variety. Random loot invalidates some named gear.

The coolest weapon I ever saw Drop was back in 2009 in the Shroud! Someone pulled a +2 Vorpal, Silver Longsword of Puregood. Yea its a longsword but still very cool!

[Ashlayna]

And do you think the market is full of that? The market is full of purchased shards with probably less than 1% of them earned from former daily dice rolls or people farming tp for them. Even if you haven't bought them, someone that bought the gear you sold did. 99% or more of as in circulation have been purchased with real money.

Source?

[Charononus]

Source?

anecdotal combined with logic.

[Ashlayna]

anecdotal combined with logic.

So it's your opinion, therefore subjective, and really doesn't add up to much of anything but post count?

[MrRoboto]

anecdotal combined with logic.

Exactly what i expected, numbers out of his ass.

[Charononus]

So it's your opinion, therefore subjective, and really doesn't add up to much of anything but post count?

1 daily dice no longer give shards

2 I think the smallest tp amount for a shard package is around 500 tp, that's about 2000 favor for a small amount of shards 100? I'm not logged in right now to get exact numbers.

3 Thousands of as change hands on the asah daily from the evidence of my own trading combined with the fact that I'm not the only one selling.

4 The asah takes a 30% cut

5 That 30% cut amounts to more on a daily basis than people can earn from favor on a daily basis because of estimated volume

6 Most shards are purchased with real money.

The 99% is an estimate on my part but that the majority is purchased is very sound.

[Ashlayna]

1 daily dice no longer give shards

2 I think the smallest tp amount for a shard package is around 500 tp, that's about 2000 favor for a small amount of shards 100? I'm not logged in right now to get exact numbers.

3 Thousands of as change hands on the asah daily from the evidence of my own trading combined with the fact that I'm not the only one selling.

4 The asah takes a 30% cut

5 That 30% cut amounts to more on a daily basis than people can earn from favor on a daily basis because of estimated volume

6 Most shards are purchased with real money.

The 99% is an estimate on my part but that the majority is purchased is very sound.

I have no doubt that a high percentage are bought. I know I will buy them to keep shards for gold seal hirelings, it's more cost effective to buy the small pack so I can bring a rogue on my FvS for trapping in Elite content at level. I also don't use the ASAH. However, just pulling random numbers from dark smelly places and claiming it as fact, as you initially did is counterproductive to dialog. It puts people off, instead of engaging them in the dialog.

[Charononus]

I have no doubt that a high percentage are bought. I know I will buy them to keep shards for gold seal hirelings, it's more cost effective to buy the small pack so I can bring a rogue on my FvS for trapping in Elite content at level. I also don't use the ASAH. However, just pulling random numbers from dark smelly places and claiming it as fact, as you initially did is counterproductive to dialog. It puts people off, instead of engaging them in the dialog.

Engaging in cheerleading a fleecing of the players like you are is offputting.

[MrRoboto]

Engaging in cheerleading a fleecing of the players like you are is offputting.

You are very entertaining. Pls continue.

[Ashlayna]

You are very entertaining. Pls continue.

I start to type responses, then can't quit laughing long enough to type.