Quest ransack? Why?

[mobrien316]

Was there ever any word from a dev regarding the rationale behind quest ransack?

In general, I'm not a fan of running the same quest a dozen times in a row, but there are a few quests in the game where I often do exactly that. When I TR, I have found Kobolds' New Ringleader to be an easy pile of XP, and I like how the quest is set up. I can run it the first time, going through every room and breaking every box and killing every monster, and then I can do it a dozen more times, jumping over the crates and completing each run in 2 minutes.

Why was the repeat penalty changed to start after ONE completion? Has there been any official word?

[Theboz]

Was there ever any word from a dev regarding the rationale behind quest ransack?

In general, I'm not a fan of running the same quest a dozen times in a row, but there are a few quests in the game where I often do exactly that. When I TR, I have found Kobolds' New Ringleader to be an easy pile of XP, and I like how the quest is set up. I can run it the first time, going through every room and breaking every box and killing every monster, and then I can do it a dozen more times, jumping over the crates and completing each run in 2 minutes.

Why was the repeat penalty changed to start after ONE completion? Has there been any official word?

Your reason why you hate quest ransack is the reason why they have it in the game to kep people runnimg the same quest over and over and over and over................

[Charononus]

Because people cried that others were farming and doing legend lives in 72 hours or less. It was a nerf to appease the jealous casuals of the playerbase.

[burningwind]

they want you to buy new content..so they can make more money. period.

p.s. for equipment wise they want you to buy shard and buy em off other player. so they earn more money.

[Theboz]

they want you to buy new content..so they can make more money. period.

p.s. for equipment wise they want you to buy shard and buy em off other player. so they earn more money.

False, quest ransack was there since the game started wwell before f2p.

[Charononus]

False, quest ransack was there since the game started wwell before f2p.

Technically right but missing the point as the decay rate was doubled in u19.

[MindCakes]

Was there ever any word from a dev regarding the rationale behind quest ransack?
Without quest ransack, there would basically be at most 20 heroic quests worth running.

Maybe there would be a couple otheres worth farming, but that's what you do after you out-leveled them.

[TPICKRELL]

Just a note for clarification... The first run at a given difficulty doesn't count for ransack.

So, you can still run a quest E+H+N+C then 1 run of any difficulty at full xp before your next run gets a 20% penalty.

I've run several quest including New Ringleader at: E+H+N+C + H + H without incurring any penalties on the next day's run.

I don't like for the steep drop off... 20% per completion is to much.

And I don't like the fact that the 50% daily recovery of penalty is against what the penalty on the next run will be, rather than what the penalty was on your last run. That effectively reduces the daily runs from 3 to 2 if you don't want a carryover penalty for the next day.

i'd really like them to either increase the recovery to 60% or better yet make it recover 50% against the penalties you actually incurred rather than the one you would incur if you were to run it one more time.

[Kylstrem]

It was done because with the old way, the ransack was permanent. This was especially bad when you hit epic levels. If you did a quest more than 3 times at epic then you had a really bad permanent ransack percentage loss that could never be recovered.

Since you now need 6.6 million XP to level cap, plus 1.98 million to cap each destiny, it would be difficult to run a wide range of quests without getting the really good ones permanently ransacked for XP to a level that no one would do them.

Plus they couldn't figure out to separate Heroic runs from Epic runs... so if you ran VON3 three times while leveling, when you hit heroic you start with whatever XP penalty you got for running it for the 4th time.

It is actually better now unless you really liked to run a single quest 9 times in a row.

[kned225]

Was there ever any word from a dev regarding the rationale behind quest ransack?

In general, I'm not a fan of running the same quest a dozen times in a row, but there are a few quests in the game where I often do exactly that. When I TR, I have found Kobolds' New Ringleader to be an easy pile of XP, and I like how the quest is set up. I can run it the first time, going through every room and breaking every box and killing every monster, and then I can do it a dozen more times, jumping over the crates and completing each run in 2 minutes.

Why was the repeat penalty changed to start after ONE completion? Has there been any official word?

Its all about daily logins. Thats why we have daily bonus, daily dice etc. U know...like zynga

Its for when turbine starts selling ingame advertising. Welcome to the Taco Bell Shard Exchange!

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

I'm a casual I guess. I usually get to log on for one or maybe two hours a day after my kids are in bed. This new mechanic fits perfectly with my play style and I rather like it. Like XP capping while I was level 17 was much easier this life. Litany twice a night on elite for a week or so. Not exactly edge of your seat exciting, but it was much better than alternative of three weeks of elite, hard, norm quests from that level range.

[AzB]

It was done because with the old way, the ransack was permanent. This was especially bad when you hit epic levels. If you did a quest more than 3 times at epic then you had a really bad permanent ransack percentage loss that could never be recovered.



bingo!

Everyone focuses on the bad and conveniently forgets the good. It really, really sucked to farm the bejeezus out of something in heroic and then have nothing left in epic.

Not to mention that this has been very good for variety and number of lfms on my server.

And I don't miss that old ransack grind much at all. Variety is the spice and all that. Running the same quests over and over is not necessary.

Last life I tried an experiment. I ran through every quest at level, once on elite and done. It worked perfectly up until 14-15 level where I had to borrow a few quests from the next higher level. And I had to run everything in Vale twice. But the beauty was that I could run it under level, raise level, come back again the next day and run those same quests at level with no penalty. Made life so much easier and more interesting.

And guess what? Took exactly the same amount of time. 7 days.

[Chai]

The XP ransack mechanic is one of the better things Turbine has done in a long time. It gives us the ability to not worry about how many times we farm Gianthold in heroic before we get to epic levels. It allows us to continually get high amounts of XP out of quests on a daily basis.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

And if they had left the decay rate the same as it was before you could have had that and the farmers would still be able to farm and everyone would be happy. Instead they nerfed farmers because some in your situation complained that others were capping too fast.

If my situation were completely different I'd probably be capping "too fast" too. I don't like it when people tell me how to play this game, so why would I tell someone "you cap too fast!" But this change (and the 20% daily) has really increased the speed in which my toons can level. Maybe I'll be able to get completionist in 5 years now instead of 6 :)

[Enoach]

As others have already mentioned the system was implemented as Turbines solution to allow us players to run quests again without the massive penalties. While hard for some to believe there are people with characters that have been around since 2006 that have never TR'd and ran quests there were available at the time. Some even getting 0 XP from Gianthold quests. Now translate that to Epic levels and these same people will get to run these quests once per new Difficulty setting and once again they become 0 XP.

What the system did is allow for these people as well as those that enjoy running a smaller set of quests multiple times that ability to get "more" XP out of them.

The cost is that 50% of the XP penalty is removed every 18 hours and that the Ransack Penalty is 20% per run (as long as it is not the First time for that difficulty)

Now I agree, to me the change from 10% to 20% for each run was steep and I even spoke out about it when it was first laid out as well as when it made it to LAM.

I would have preferred to keep the 10% and have it restore 30% every 18 hours. This would have left the current leveling practice alone, still kept epic level farming minimized in that a person could Ransack it in one day and do a different farm while they wait the 3 days for ransack to clear. I'm sure every leveling expert at the Epic level have at least 3 to 4 XP farming quests they like to do.

For those that believe people were complaining that others were CAPing to fast, I don't believe that came from the community, that mentality would have come from the Game Designers. I'm always impressed that people can turn a TR around in 72 hours (give or take). If that is how they want to play, good speed is what I say.

[Charononus]

bingo!

Everyone focuses on the bad and conveniently forgets the good. It really, really sucked to farm the bejeezus out of something in heroic and then have nothing left in epic.

Not to mention that this has been very good for variety and number of lfms on my server.

And I don't miss that old ransack grind much at all. Variety is the spice and all that. Running the same quests over and over is not necessary.

Last life I tried an experiment. I ran through every quest at level, once on elite and done. It worked perfectly up until 14-15 level where I had to borrow a few quests from the next higher level. And I had to run everything in Vale twice. But the beauty was that I could run it under level, raise level, come back again the next day and run those same quests at level with no penalty. Made life so much easier and more interesting.

And guess what? Took exactly the same amount of time. 7 days.

You're concentrating on the bad too, you could cap 25 just running eh then en on all the epic quests thru motu then some explorers. Then you had id to cap destinies and everything else was loot runs.

[Kalimah]

New Ransack system beats the pants off the old one in every way. Yes, you have to run a wider variety of quests but it is faster to level 20 this way than the old and you don't have to tell your pals no you wont run x quest with them because you are afraid to gimp yourself out of experience down the road.

[Charononus]

New Ransack system beats the pants off the old one in every way. Yes, you have to run a wider variety of quests but it is faster to level 20 this way than the old and you don't have to tell your pals no you wont run x quest with them because you are afraid to gimp yourself out of experience down the road.

For some it's faster for some it is far far slower, I don't mind that you guys got a speed increase for your playstyle but it could have been done without nerfing anyone elses. My only theory on why it was done is all the complaints about people zerging and leveling too fast and that means I hold those that benefited responsible for my getting a nerf.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

For some it's faster for some it is far far slower, I don't mind that you guys got a speed increase for your playstyle but it could have been done without nerfing anyone elses. My only theory on why it was done is all the complaints about people zerging and leveling too fast and that means I hold those that benefited responsible for my getting a nerf.

Well I guess I look at it more like they are trying to take care of both the extremes. I can definitely sympathize with the issue for people that level "too fast" as now it's not as easy. But I guess I'm biased as it's really helped me. I'm sure people will come up with a guide on how to maximize XP with some kind of per level daily quest run list of some kind.

And for your theory to hold true... that would mean that Turbine listens to it's customers *GASP* ;)

[Missing_Minds]

It was done because with the old way, the ransack was permanent. This was especially bad when you hit epic levels. If you did a quest more than 3 times at epic then you had a really bad permanent ransack percentage loss that could never be recovered.
Correct.

Personally, given the XP value of a few quests, I much perfer the new method rather than never running, never running, never running, ok i'll run it just once now... *wait 8-18 lvls to cap* Ok, now I'll run it constantly/when I want to run it.

That just was not fun.

[Ungood]

May not have been due to players complaining, but due to the fact that the Dev's themselves did not want people to run the same 20 quests to the ground.

After all, if you were around for the FW nerf, one of their reasons for nerfing FW was to inspire players to use other spells, for no other motive then because their team put time into making the graphics for those other spells. Same could hold true for quests, after all, if they went though the effort to make them, they may as well force you EXP grinders to run them.

[Avenging_Angel]

What used to be the optimal route before the change is not anymore. I don't know if the math guys on the forums have already figured it out.


And man, SOMEONE here is really mad about the change.

[walkin_dude]

I just ran into the only time ransack has annoyed me since I started playing the game. I ran The Church and the Cult a bunch over the weekend, trying to get a Silver Longbow for one of my toons on Argo. The second round, I even found some kindly folks to run it with me. Sadly, the bow never dropped.

This was a case of decreased chest rewards, though, not xp. I wasn't getting any xp.

Numerous Bloodplates dropped, a couple of Shadow Cloaks, and one of the trinket (can't recall the name just now). :(

[mobrien316]

Why on earth would anyone in the game complain that someone else was leveling too quickly?

I really don't get that...

[Missing_Minds]

Why on earth would anyone in the game complain that someone else was leveling too quickly?

I really don't get that...

Easy. The faster people level, the faster they may leave. Unless they stick around for a while the nominal cash value of a fast leveling player is not that much. Slow them down a bit and they may buy a bit out of the store before they vanish. Basic economics.

Also, this change also rendered having to figure out how to stop window farming exploit a mute point so they don't have to change quest completion/finishing mechanics to stop that exploit.

[Missing_Minds]

And man, SOMEONE here is really mad about the change.

Some people really don't. Me, all it has done now is allowed me to level faster, actually.

[Kylstrem]

This change was NOT made because people were complaining that other people were levelling too fast... that's just a silly argument to make.

The change was because people were complaining that once they hit Epic levels, the good XP quests were ransacked (I'm Looking at you VON3), or if you weren't wise enough with your planning while trying to cap to 26, you might have run Rusted Blades/Death Undone too many times and it was virtually worthless to you once you capped.

And with the raising of the level cap to 28, turbine knew it would get worse since you'd need to repeat more epic quests to get capped and stop the repeat penalty counter from increasing.

that's the reason.. not because the supposed "daisy sniffers" were jealous of the "power gamers."

[Krelar]

Also, this change also rendered having to figure out how to stop window farming exploit a mute point so they don't have to change quest completion/finishing mechanics to stop that exploit.

Can it really be called an exploit when they specifically fixed it to continue working? (You couldn't do it in the early beta of MoTU, they changed it to allow window farming again)

[vengfarga]

Because people cried that others were farming and doing legend lives in 72 hours or less. It was a nerf to appease the jealous casuals of the playerbase.

As just such a casual, I'd prefer to think of us as 'bemused' rather than 'jealous'. A bit more "Why would you want to?" than "How can you do that?"
So, really nerfing you guys as a by-product of helping us? I can only apologise, we'd hardly even noticed you were there, same as vice-versa.
Or perhaps this new system is a better balance between the two - so one game can, if not keep us both HAPPY, keep us both satisfied?
Of course, if I ever manage to get as far as 3rd life in 72 weeks or less, I may start to lean more towards your thinking ;D

[droid327]

The change was also made to help people find partners for quests, help PUGs fill up faster. If you put up a PUG for, say, Delirium or Acid Wit before, odds are it would never fill because people were all just blitzing Litany and Vale quests ad nauseum. Now, people have an incentive to run a variety of quests rather than just the "best". That leads to more social interaction. I can tell you, as a soloist I've run way more groups since ransack, just because people join when I open an LFM, or post up LFMs for quests I'm looking to do.

Yes, its a net negative for the subset of hardcore players who have dedicated full groups ready to run all content at all times at maximum efficiency. But DDO has to deliberately de-incentivize the hardest of hardcore players sometimes, keep a balance between hardcore-rewarding and casual-friendly. For casual players, Quest Ransack was a HUGE improvement, they gained much more than the leet grinders lost.

[NaturalHazard]

Because people cried that others were farming and doing legend lives in 72 hours or less. It was a nerf to appease the jealous casuals of the playerbase.

Maybe also they wanted to make sure those stones of TR of theirs would be as popular as possible?

[IronClan]

Quest ransack = social engineering that at the same time fixes the old perma-XP penalty that I think predates even TR'ing and wasn't designed to account for end game repetition of epics. It fixes many problems from multiple angles. Those two are just the most onerous.

3. Sure they want you to buy more quest packs, but also:
4. They get lots of "I'm leaving, all the pugs are the same small selection of quests run 10 times in a row until my eyes bleed" exit surveys
5. MOST PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO FARM, and love having an INCENTIVE to play varied content that REWARDS not repeating more than a tolerable E, H, N and maybe one more E.

Farming has been stagnating the game into "absolute max XP/min" lowest common denominator forever that was helping even powergamers become bored of the game faster. and making it hard for "followers not leaders" types to find LFM's for content that wasn't the default "leveling farm" in that level range.

being mad at "those **** casuals" for taking 10x farming away from you is like being mad at your mom for not letting you eat a whole box of cookies at once... You don't know whats best for you, and someone should probably have taken the cookies away long ago.

[pHo3nix]

The change was also made to help people find partners for quests, help PUGs fill up faster. If you put up a PUG for, say, Delirium or Acid Wit before, odds are it would never fill because people were all just blitzing Litany and Vale quests ad nauseum. Now, people have an incentive to run a variety of quests rather than just the "best".

To fix a problem you should first understand it. Why people used to run, for example, litany so many times? Cause it's good xp/min compared to everything at that level.
What's the easiest solution to make all quests appealing? Give all quests the same xp/min of litany, shadow crypt, von3 and the problem fixes itself without needing other changes. If every quest was the same xp/min people could choose to run whatever they like more instead of farming something 9 times cause even on the 9th run some quests are still better xp/min than others on their 1st elite run with BB.

[Missing_Minds]

Can it really be called an exploit when they specifically fixed it to continue working? (You couldn't do it in the early beta of MoTU, they changed it to allow window farming again)
Just because you can do something doesn't mean it was intended. So YES, it can really be called an exploit.

If you couldn't in the early but later could,
1. They had fixed it then broke it in typical Turbine fashion.
2. Tried to fix it then discovered it broke other things in ways not intended and couldn't be fixed by launch time so revert the change.

[Qhualor]

just because theres a quest ransack now doesn't mean people aren't still farming quests. the farm runs have been cut in half except for the usual high xp/min quests like Von 3 and Shadow Crypt. as long as the xp/min is still worth it, people still farm but its making it so more quests are being run. this i like because its opening up more lfms and the zerg TR group i sometimes join doesn't bore me as much as it did before. its taken a bit of an adjustment for them but they are starting to get a rhythm going again. with the xp curve coming soon and the adjustments to quest xp, things should be even easier. the more incentive to run varied quests the better grouping could be and the better for Turbine to make some money with pack sales.

[AzB]

What's the easiest solution to make all quests appealing? Give all quests the same xp/min of litany, shadow crypt, von3 and the problem fixes itself without needing other changes. If every quest was the same xp/min people could choose to run whatever they like more instead of farming something 9 times cause even on the 9th run some quests are still better xp/min than others on their 1st elite run with BB.

The xp/min obsessors would still find a way to knock 8 seconds off one of those quests that all have the same xp/min and then run that one over and over.

[Thrudh]

Because people cried that others were farming and doing legend lives in 72 hours or less. It was a nerf to appease the jealous casuals of the playerbase.

It was a huge buff for those of us that play one and done. It allows players the ability to run quests whenever we want and not "save" them. Yes, XP ransack happens faster, so you can't repeat a quest 10 times in a row, but you can play a fun quest 20 times over 40 days which you could not do before.

It's a pretty decent trade-off.

And no one asked for it that I know of... Pretty neat solution I think.

As for the legend lives in 72 hours crowd?? HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!i

[Chai]

With the ransack leveling off at -80% base, Im still getting 12k out of ID every 90sec - 2min. Getting about the same 12k @ -80% base trying to farm BOB / TTT for epic ingredients.

[Charononus]

For those that think making people run more quests is good for pugging, for my part and I do post pugs quite a bit, it means that I'm zerging harder, and absolutely never coming back for others in those groups now because I have to complete poorer xp quests now. It has honestly made me put of groups that are less friendly than ever before.

Also some of the quests that weren't run and weren't farmed are horribly designed quests that should be deleted from the game, that's right coyle I'm looking at you.

[Thrudh]

Why on earth would anyone in the game complain that someone else was leveling too quickly?

I really don't get that...

No one did... And that's not why they changed it...

I didn't really care if people leveled in 2 days... I DID have snarky remarks for them when the morons came here and complained that they were bored. But I don't remember anyone asking Turbine to slow others down...

Being ransacked forever was a real problem though with the level cap going up... I think the solution they came up with is pretty good... Real powergamers can still level very very fast, and the rest of us got huge buffs with this change... Basically a permanent 20% exp bonus.

[Thrudh]

For those that think making people run more quests is good for pugging, for my part and I do post pugs quite a bit, it means that I'm zerging harder, and absolutely never coming back for others in those groups now because I have to complete poorer xp quests now.

Why do you even play this game? Seriously... What part of it is fun for you?


Also some of the quests that weren't run and weren't farmed are horribly designed quests that should be deleted from the game, that's right coyle I'm looking at you.

There are 200 good quests between the 30 you used to run and Coyle.

[Qhualor]

For those that think making people run more quests is good for pugging, for my part and I do post pugs quite a bit, it means that I'm zerging harder, and absolutely never coming back for others in those groups now because I have to complete poorer xp quests now. It has honestly made me put of groups that are less friendly than ever before.

Also some of the quests that weren't run and weren't farmed are horribly designed quests that should be deleted from the game, that's right coyle I'm looking at you.

nobody is making you do anything. if you xp farmed quests, you can still do it. i posted earlier there are still farm groups. its still the same old invis run and with EDs (yeah im going there :) ) its still just as fast as before quest xp ransack. the only thing that has changed is that certain farm quests for the xp/min crowd are run about half as much as before, but the rest of the good farm quests are still run 10x. i did 2 lives with a real hardcore zerg xp/min group capping in just over a week both times because we were leveling together. if it wasn't for jobs and other commitments, we would have capped in half that. xp/min zerg to cap is still there, you just have to make a little adjustment to the change.

this is the issue with the xp/min crowd. they are in such a hurry to cap and make time relevant to them and want Turbine to change the game around for them. this quest xp ransack is a great business strategy on Turbines part and its very helpful for those of us who don't want to zerg to cap. the changes they have made and the changes up coming benefits all play styles.

[Soulfurnace]

For those that think making people run more quests is good for pugging, for my part and I do post pugs quite a bit, it means that I'm zerging harder, and absolutely never coming back for others in those groups now because I have to complete poorer xp quests now. It has honestly made me put of groups that are less friendly than ever before.

Also some of the quests that weren't run and weren't farmed are horribly designed quests that should be deleted from the game, that's right coyle I'm looking at you.
Mind pming me your toon(s)? Sick of posting my own LFMs, latching onto yours would be nice.

[NaturalHazard]

Mind pming me your toon(s)? Sick of posting my own LFMs, latching onto yours would be nice.

Hey im rolling up a wf barb to run with your new cleric pm me..............

[Soulfurnace]

Hey im rolling up a wf barb to run with your new cleric pm me..............
Nice try mate.

My wf barb "Hjeazler" has that spot already. (It's the 1 mutlibox toon who serves no combat purpose if things go bad on my main)

[NaturalHazard]

Nice try mate.

My wf barb "Hjeazler" has that spot already. (It's the 1 mutlibox toon who serves no combat purpose if things go bad on my main)

I thought a WF barb would be named jhealzmeh!!! not hjealzler?

[Zirun]

Another change in possible playstyles that I don't think has caught on a lot yet (though I could just not see it) is that you can now run XP-rich quests at a much lower level. For the hardcore XP/min crowd, they can start farming quests like Shadow Crypt 2/3 times per day. It may slow them down in terms of how many days it takes to get to level 20, but it's potentially faster in game-time... assuming they can handle the challenge of being several levels under the quest. Coincidentally, these types of player are frequently the ones that complain about how easy the game is.

You want challenge? Start farming Shadow Crypt at level 7 while keeping your Bravery bonus alive. If you want your ex pees, go get 'em!

They probably won't because it's too hard, but the game is still way too easy for them. :P

[Soulfurnace]

I thought a WF barb would be named jhealzmeh!!! not hjealzler?
Never. Clerics are Hjealzmeh, barbs are Hjealzer :3

FvS are non-existent on my f2p toons. :c

[Thrudh]

Look... the devs are doing a lot of positive things around experience... They are smoothing out the TR curve, lowering the total amount needed, buffing up some Amrath and Cannith quests, giving VIPs 10% exp bonus, giving everyone 20% bonuses for first daily run..

Yet STILL there are people so bitter with this game that all they can do is complain that Turbine nerfed their xp/min farm runs.

The doom-bois are so bitter they can only see the 1 bad change in a sea of 10 good changes. Turbine is making it FAR easier for you to TR in 24 hours if that is what makes you happy.

[NaturalHazard]

Look... the devs are doing a lot of positive things around experience... They are smoothing out the TR curve, lowering the total amount needed, buffing up some Amrath and Cannith quests, giving VIPs 10% exp bonus, giving everyone 20% bonuses for first daily run..

Yet STILL there are people so bitter with this game that all they can do is complain that Turbine nerfed their playstyle.

The doom-bois are so bitter they can only see the 1 bad change in a sea of 10 good changes. Turbine is making it FAR easier for you to TR in 24 hours if that is what makes you happy.

Yep thanks thrudh for keeping on turbines case and suggesting loads of ideas for them to improve stuff, keep up the good work!!!!

[Thrudh]

Yep thanks thrudh for keeping on turbines case and suggesting loads of ideas for them to improve stuff, keep up the good work!!!!

I have suggested many times that they raise Amrath and Cannith quest exp, and that they smooth out the TR exp curve because 18-20 was so grindy... So you're welcome...

But many of the people who complain constantly about Turbine ALSO asked for those things, and when they finally get them, all they can do is STILL complain about exp.

[NaturalHazard]

I have suggested many times that they raise Amrath and Cannith quest exp, and that they smooth out the TR exp curve because 18-20 was so grindy... So you're welcome...

But many of the people who complain constantly about Turbine ALSO asked for those things, and when they finally get them, all they can do is STILL complain about exp.

When will they ever be happy?

Anyway this change suits my play style better so im not complaining per se. Don't have to worry about running out of stuff 18-20, or missing xp via stupid mistakes, someone over leveled being let him and entering the quest as you finish on your first time on elite and you just realise what level they are *facepalm* and leader then gets a lot of rage lol. Still seeing guildies zipping past me, today level 1 tomorrow level 18, that ngiht they hit 20 and are back down to 1 next morning.

Don't know if thats all due to stones or if they have found some sweet spots for their zerge 1-20 rinse repeat every couple of days.

[Hendrik]

Why do you even play this game? Seriously... What part of it is fun for you?





Clearly running the same quest over and over and over and over and ignoring everything and everyone else.

[Hendrik]

When will they ever be happy?



When they only have one quest to run from level 1 to cap with no doors, traps, puzzles or anything else.

[Soulfurnace]

When they only have one quest to run from level 1 to cap with no doors, traps, puzzles or anything else.
Yup. Those doors suck.

[kuro_zero]

IMO Quest XP Ransack had nothing to do with heroic leveling and everything to do with the ED grinding that became prevalent via ID and RB. It was a way for them to address non-decaying XP rewards when one hit the hard level XP cap.

They then tweaked the XP penalty timer from 7 days, 3 days, to the current 50% per day on live when the impact of heroic leveling was revealed with their changes. Its not a terrible system as it is, but a pretty heavy handed and wide-reaching solution to address a very narrow problem.

[Charononus]

Why do you even play this game? Seriously... What part of it is fun for you?

.

Griefing flowersniffers has been pretty fun lately. =P

[PermaBanned]

Griefing flowersniffers has been pretty fun lately. =P

I wonder if that was like the comment "Dev B" made in the breakroom about the XP change:

Dev A asks: "So what was with that whole xp ransack thing?"
Dev B replies: "Griefing powergamers has been pretty fun lately!"

[Soulfurnace]

Griefing flowersniffers has been pretty fun lately. =P
...Tell me yer toons :(

Zerg groups while also griefing flowersniffers sounds like arguably the best group I've joined in ages :P

[erethizon]

Was there ever any word from a dev regarding the rationale behind quest ransack?

In general, I'm not a fan of running the same quest a dozen times in a row, but there are a few quests in the game where I often do exactly that. When I TR, I have found Kobolds' New Ringleader to be an easy pile of XP, and I like how the quest is set up. I can run it the first time, going through every room and breaking every box and killing every monster, and then I can do it a dozen more times, jumping over the crates and completing each run in 2 minutes.

Why was the repeat penalty changed to start after ONE completion? Has there been any official word?

When I got into alpha testing there was a quest called Miller's Debt (which was just a shorter version of the one we have today). This quest consisted of talking to Miller (the quest started in the room with him) killing two iron defenders that attacked you after you spoke with him and then killing the boss iron defender in the room that opens up (exactly like the end of the current Miller's Debt quest). If you held a level running this quest was the fastest way to get to level 7 there was in the game (I think the exp stopped at 1 exp short of level 7 but it may have been 1 exp short of level 8). I leveled up many characters this way during alpha testing. It was boring and did not make for a good impression of the game, but it was certainly very efficient (and remember the level cap was 10 back then so this was a huge percentage of the total experience grind).

Permanent quest ransacking was added to prevent exactly this type of behavior. Thankfully they recently realized that there was no need to make the ransacking permanent and so we now have quests that go from fully ransacked to totally unransacked in just 36 hours. The trouble with MMO players is that they will find the most efficient way to accomplish a goal, bore the heck out of themselves by using the most efficient method (no matter how tedious it is) and then complain that the game is terrible because it made the most efficient way to accomplish the goal extremely boring. A well designed game needs to make sure that the fastest way to accomplish a goal is also the most fun because a well designed game has to protect the players from their own stupidity. It shouldn't have to work that way, but it does. Games that fail to do this are considered boring by the masses and end up doing much more poorly than they would have if they had been designed to prevent players from ruining them.

[NaturalHazard]

Griefing flowersniffers has been pretty fun lately. =P

Im a flower sniffer can you come grief my runs please?

[Vellrad]

May not have been due to players complaining, but due to the fact that the Dev's themselves did not want people to run the same 20 quests to the ground.


IDK, daily playthorugh bonus encourages to run less quests, just few at day.

[morkahn82]

The XP ransack mechanic is one of the better things Turbine has done in a long time. It gives us the ability to not worry about how many times we farm Gianthold in heroic before we get to epic levels. It allows us to continually get high amounts of XP out of quests on a daily basis.

This. Considering the raid timer of 3 days, you always get full xp for the raids. Which is just wonderful. Best change ever. Good times for the laid-back player. The old ransack mechanic was just awful, simply because you could not check how many completions you already had in advance. You needed to join group, run there and step in to see. Now you just need to know if you ran the quest more than 3 times the day before.

[Pandir]

When I got into alpha testing there was a quest called Miller's Debt (which was just a shorter version of the one we have today). This quest consisted of talking to Miller (the quest started in the room with him) killing two iron defenders that attacked you after you spoke with him and then killing the boss iron defender in the room that opens up (exactly like the end of the current Miller's Debt quest). If you held a level running this quest was the fastest way to get to level 7 there was in the game (I think the exp stopped at 1 exp short of level 7 but it may have been 1 exp short of level 8). I leveled up many characters this way during alpha testing. It was boring and did not make for a good impression of the game, but it was certainly very efficient (and remember the level cap was 10 back then so this was a huge percentage of the total experience grind).

Permanent quest ransacking was added to prevent exactly this type of behavior. Thankfully they recently realized that there was no need to make the ransacking permanent and so we now have quests that go from fully ransacked to totally unransacked in just 36 hours. The trouble with MMO players is that they will find the most efficient way to accomplish a goal, bore the heck out of themselves by using the most efficient method (no matter how tedious it is) and then complain that the game is terrible because it made the most efficient way to accomplish the goal extremely boring. A well designed game needs to make sure that the fastest way to accomplish a goal is also the most fun because a well designed game has to protect the players from their own stupidity. It shouldn't have to work that way, but it does. Games that fail to do this are considered boring by the masses and end up doing much more poorly than they would have if they had been designed to prevent players from ruining them.

You could see the same behaviour with Impossible Demands and rusted blades, people farming the quests days on end then complaining about it. I guess that's one of the main reasons for the change (although a bit late), second being the valid complaint that quest ransack stuck between heroic and epic level quests and being forced to plan out the leveling process for it.

[Ivan_Milic]

It was done this way because of epic lvls and turbine raising lvl cap, adding 3 more million xp to get while adding only 15 quests(or how much in this last pack).

[fredericko]

It's actually easy to adapt to the new system. My friend T (>30 TR's on that toon) and me went from 1 to 20 in 11 days with something less than 4 hours a day on average and it was our first TR with the new ransack system. You can still start at Harbor and hit lvl 3 just by farming Kobold's New Ringleader. That's actually how we did it. We weren't obsessed with max xp per minute: we did reasonable farming of the usual subjects but we also ran pretty much every single quest out there at least once in elite (3BC - restless isles included).

[Thrudh]

Griefing flowersniffers has been pretty fun lately. =P

Char, is it possible for you to admit that the NET xp changes have been positive for the players, and the devs appear to be listening?

[Charononus]

Char, is it possible for you to admit that the NET xp changes have been positive for the players, and the devs appear to be listening?

It's been positive for some players and negative for others. It has not been positive for all no matter how much you may want to close your eyes and wish it was so.

edit*

and that's the problem it's punitive to some for no reason other than to be punitive.

[Ausdoerrt]

The new system is great and I like it. Sure, 20% for each extra run is a bit harsh, but it's better than what we used to have, anyway. Encourages variety and gives additional choice.

[Ryiah]

For the hardcore XP/min crowd, they can start farming quests like Shadow Crypt 2/3 times per day.

Even at -80% the Shadow Crypt is still insane XP. One life I did, shortly after the ransack system was introduced, I ran the Shadow Crypt so many times I lost track of the count. It was fantastic XP.

[Lanhelin]

While I understand the ransack thing applied to dungeons, it's a bit disappointing that it applies to Wilderness areas too. In Wilderness areas there are Slayer quests with thousands of mobs to be killed as quest objectives, so if you want to complete these quests you have to enter the area multiple times or stay in by design. Obviously it's intended by the Devs to enter multiple times or stay in and wait for respawn, because otherwise the quest objectives are not completable. Eg. in The High Road you can stay for hours and kill the respawn, but there are also random rare encounters which the player has no influence on when or where they spawn. I did the 5k Slayer there within a couple of days and it happened, that the rare encounter "Trader Travels" where to kill a Fire Reaver occured not so rare, and now the chest is always empty. The rare encounter also doesn't disappear once on the map, and it happened, that there were three Fire Reaver "rares" at the same time on my map. I didn't want to kill them anymore, but when I don't do so, they remain there until I leave the map and reset it.

Maybe it's some kind of luxury problem, but in this case I feel a bit punished by ransack for a thing I have no influence on. To solve this, ransacked rare encounters should simply stop to spawn until the ransack countdown is over, but not letting them spawn again and again with empty chests.

[Thrudh]

It's been positive for some players and negative for others. It has not been positive for all no matter how much you may want to close your eyes and wish it was so.

But this is not true anymore... Even before the new announcements, not being able to farm more 4-5 times (instead of 8-9 times) was a negative for powergamers, but gaining a 20% bonus on every quest went a long way to balancing that out.

But after the new announcements (600k less needed to TR, exp smoothing, boost to Amrath and Cannith quests exp), even powergamers like you WILL be able to TR faster than before.

So you (barely) had a reason to complain before, but not anymore. You will be able to TR faster than ever before, and yet you still see the devs moves as punitive.


and that's the problem it's punitive to some for no reason other than to be punitive.

You are so bitter you can't even see the good changes anymore.

[Ausdoerrt]

^ I think you're talking about a different type of ransack there :) Or do you mean to say that slayers/explorers lose XP if you reenter the area a few times? This has not been my experience so far...

[Teh_Troll]

Its all about daily logins. Thats why we have daily bonus, daily dice etc. U know...like zynga

Its for when turbine starts selling ingame advertising. Welcome to the Taco Bell Shard Exchange!

Can I buy tacos with my shards? They'd at least be good for something then.

[Dandonk]

I tried hard to keep hating this, but in practice it's been good for me. Sure, it's cut down on my grind-the-same-quest-over-and-over but that's not a bad thing - I now get the xp I normally got from the repeat grind on other quests due to daily bonus. And come U20, we'll get lower TR xp cost - yay!

I can see that it is a problem if you only play one (or a very few) character(s) for xp, but for me it's been good.

[Teh_Troll]

...Tell me yer toons :(

Zerg groups while also griefing flowersniffers sounds like arguably the best group I've joined in ages :P

You guys need to move to Ghallanda. Tons of griefing targets.

And you'll be able to hjeal meh.

[Lanhelin]

^ I think you're talking about a different type of ransack there :) Or do you mean to say that slayers/explorers lose XP if you reenter the area a few times? This has not been my experience so far...

No, I mean the rare encounter chest ransack. When you loot a chest too many times, it's empty every time you open it again. While in dungeons, where the most players know where the chests are and doing dungeons mainly for XP, the Wilderness rares spawn by chance and them and their chests are something like a welcome change in the process of killing. Most Wilderness areas are static with no respawn, but the High Road and King's Forest (and I guess the Storm Horns too) are dynamic with mob and rare encounter respawn. Players have no influence on what and where respawning, and the whole respawn design is meant to let players stay in the area and not to leave and reset it, isn't it? So either the chest ransack should not count towards Wilderness chests or the rares shouldn't spawn again until the chest ransack is resetted.

[Chai]

Strictly speaking from an XP / min perspective and ignoring all else, the only time it was better to farm one quest was when we were at XP cap. Otherwise the ransack penalty was perminent.

So now, if I am so inclined, instead of waiting and not running specific quests until I am level 28 with capped leveling XP, I can farm the shinola out of them anyhow, and get 12k per run even when at -80% base, which is where the ransack penalty bottoms out - and this is even before potions and tomes for those who buy those for grinding XP.

If I dont want to grind the same quest multiple times per day, I can grind the same high Xp quests three times per day. Next day I will have zero ransack penalty. It goes down at a rate of 20% per repetition. So first run is at full, second run -20, third run -40. We get back 50% per day. So even after three runs of von 5 today, I can run it again tomorrow, and get 100% XP all over again.

[Ausdoerrt]

No, I mean the rare encounter chest ransack. When you loot a chest too many times, it's empty every time you open it again. While in dungeons, where the most players know where the chests are and doing dungeons mainly for XP, the Wilderness rares spawn by chance and them and their chests are something like a welcome change in the process of killing. Most Wilderness areas are static with no respawn, but the High Road and King's Forest (and I guess the Storm Horns too) are dynamic with mob and rare encounter respawn. Players have no influence on what and where respawning, and the whole respawn design is meant to let players stay in the area and not to leave and reset it, isn't it? So either the chest ransack should not count towards Wilderness chests or the rares shouldn't spawn again until the chest ransack is resetted.

Oh, so yeah, that's a separate issue. Sounds like the respawn mechanic may need some tweaking, but chest ransack is functioning absolutely fine.

Some rare encounter chests in certain areas can drop rare/valuable/named items or ingredients, and can be farmed easily thanks to reset. Therefore, chest ransack is absolutely necessary on these just like in the quests.

[kned225]

Can I buy tacos with my shards? They'd at least be good for something then.

EE Crunchwraps Supreme

[TPICKRELL]

...
If I don't want to grind the same quest multiple times per day, I can grind the same high Xp quests three times per day. Next day I will have zero ransack penalty. It goes down at a rate of 20% per repetition. So first run is at full, second run -20, third run -40. We get back 50% per day. So even after three runs of von 5 today, I can run it again tomorrow, and get 100% XP all over again.

My testing indicates this is not quite true. If you run the quest once, you get no ransack penalty on that run, but the /ransack command reports a ransack of 20% after the run.

The second run you get a 20% ransack penalty as expected, and /ransack reports 40%.

If you run it a third time, you get a 40% penalty and /ransack then reports 60%. The 50% you recover is against what /ransack reports, so if you run it three times, you will start the next day with a 10% penalty. I think it should work the way you describe, but it doesn't.

[Chai]

My testing indicates this is not quite true. If you run the quest once, you get no ransack penalty on that run, but the /ransack command reports a ransack of 20% after the run.

The second run you get a 20% ransack penalty as expected, and /ransack reports 40%.

If you run it a third time, you get a 40% penalty and /ransack then reports 60%. The 50% you recover is against what /ransack reports, so if you run it three times, you will start the next day with a 10% penalty. I think it should work the way you describe, but it doesn't.

Im not seeing this 10% penalty, and ive been running BOB + TTT 3x per day on each toon trying to farm epic mats for multiple toons.

I do see the ransack report the way you are describing it, because its reporting what your next run will be.

[TPICKRELL]

<snip> OK, i'll check again tonight. I tested it, but it was right after U19 came out. I hope you are right, 3X per day would help out a bunch on leveling my haggle only bard.

[AzB]

IDK, daily playthorugh bonus encourages to run less quests, just few at day.

Perhaps for you. For most of the groups I've been in, it seems to do just the opposite. Sagas are also motivating people to run some less popular quests. The combination has breathed new life into guild groups, static groups, and even pugs from what I've seen.

I guess it depends on a lot on your perspective.

My take on it is that many of the people that used to use the "farming formula" were doing it because they were bored and lazy. Usually rolling one of the cookie cutter exploiter type builds, and running through content as quickly as possible. Then complaining there was no end game, and now complaining that the farming routine that was all so familiar is gone.

Try something new once in a while. There is a new way to farm, and it's just something that works differently. The xp loss is minimal at best, and you get to do something other than run the same 4 quests at each level. Make the daily ransack reset work for you. Run Wiz King on thurs under level, run a few other quests to level, then run Wiz King on Fri at level. Tastes great, less grindy. I leveled two lives since the quest ransack and it takes the same amount of time. And for the most part, I ran everything once on elite and done. There are a couple of exceptions of course, but overall it was tons less grindy and a lot more fun.

[RaidMR]

Ok, so I admit I'm more in the 'flower sniffer' category than zerger, but I have farmed quests both pre and post U19 and I got to say I love the new system. Pre u19 if you wanted a quest to farm the ideal method was to run it on whatever difficulty before xp penalty kicked in, then avoid it till cap and then run it to death. Post u19 you can still farm quests but the diminishing returns on xp encourage the player to move on to different content at a certain point.

With the introduction of saga's there's even more incentive to run entire chains and base 'play' on more than just xp/min. Also if you're running a quest for loot/shards/seals/scrolls there's a good chance you'll still end up with a good chunk of xp so even if you don't get the item you're looking for at least you got something out of it more than vendor trash. In my books that's alright.

It seems to me that these so called power gamers constantly complain because every change seems to disrupt their scripted min/max behavior and nothing more. In this case the xp is there, and not really that much harder to run two or three quests instead of one... save the time it takes to travel from one to the other. So are they really complaining about nerfing the game or an increased effort on their part to play the game?

[Tscheuss]

For some it's faster for some it is far far slower, I don't mind that you guys got a speed increase for your playstyle but it could have been done without nerfing anyone elses. My only theory on why it was done is all the complaints about people zerging and leveling too fast and that means I hold those that benefited responsible for my getting a nerf.

It is only an hypothesis. It would only become a theory after it survives rigorous testing. :p

[Paleus]

It is only an hypothesis. It would only become a theory after it survives rigorous testing. :p

Oh you scallywag. Everyone knows that we don't need rigorous testing to claim you have a theory anymore. Instead we make grand sweeping proclamations with little evidence to back them up other than what I think I saw this one time or believe to be true. You know, modern theory building 101 in American culture.* Or as Colbert calls it, Truthiness.

After all, my gut tells me every change implemented by the Devs has been to single-handedly ruin my gaming experience, the dice rolls aren't random, everyone agrees with me or is a fanboi, sacrificing halflings improve loot chances, and all of my deaths are due to lag. That's why they implemented quest ransack, to make me want to leave this game.

*Yes I know people believe "Other Countries" exist and have players that play this game, but there is no room for such crazy thinking. I mean, why else would the majority of Turbine down-times seem to be coordinated to EST?

[Charononus]

It is only an hypothesis. It would only become a theory after it survives rigorous testing. :p

In this case I'd say it's a difference in using common definitions that have evolved in culture rather than literal technical definitions. Technical language is pretty rigid and unchanging where as common usage is constantly changing and growing. Another perfect example of this is that people use the word decimated to mean devastated even though decimation means to get rid of, remove, or destroy one out of ten.


Oh you scallywag. Everyone knows that we don't need rigorous testing to claim you have a theory anymore. Instead we make grand sweeping proclamations with little evidence to back them up other than what I think I saw this one time or believe to be true. You know, modern theory building 101 in American culture.* Or as Colbert calls it, Truthiness.

After all, my gut tells me every change implemented by the Devs has been to single-handedly ruin my gaming experience, the dice rolls aren't random, everyone agrees with me or is a fanboi, sacrificing halflings improve loot chances, and all of my deaths are due to lag. That's why they implemented quest ransack, to make me want to leave this game.

*Yes I know people believe "Other Countries" exist and have players that play this game, but there is no room for such crazy thinking. I mean, why else would the majority of Turbine down-times seem to be coordinated to EST?

Please look at the log in times on ddoracle for a day, it's really the best option for Turbine as a company, if you want that to change get more friends to play.

Also

We don't like you because you aren't murican.

[IronClan]

Also some of the quests that weren't run and weren't farmed are horribly designed quests that should be deleted from the game, that's right coyle I'm looking at you.

Coyle??? IMO anyone who fancies himself or portrays himself as an "elite" power gamer type who complains about Coyle is immediately suspect.

Either A) they haven't run Threnal in years and simply have no clue, and obviously aren't as knowledgeable as they want to pretend; or B) they aren't very good at the game and are just pretending to be haughty power gamers on the forums, with their noses stuck up in the air at "casuals" even if they aren't much removed from being that themselves*.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, then pick A) or B). :cool:

* not that there's anything wrong with being less of a power gamer, you can join my LFM any time Charo in fact I have a "flavor build" vet 7 lowbie (Druid Warforged summoner/caster named Swampthing will wear livewoodcore) that needs a house P pendant you are welcome to join me in running the whole chain, and finding out what I'm talking about :)

[Charononus]

Coyle??? IMO anyone who fancies himself or portrays himself as an "elite" power gamer type who complains about Coyle is immediately suspect.

Either A) they haven't run Threnal in years and simply have no clue, and obviously aren't as knowledgeable as they want to pretend; or B) they aren't very good at the game and are just pretending to be haughty power gamers on the forums, with their noses stuck up in the air at "casuals" even if they aren't much removed from being that themselves*.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, then pick A) or B). :cool:

* not that there's anything wrong with being less of a power gamer, you can join my LFM any time Charo in fact I have a "flavor build" vet 7 lowbie (Druid Warforged summoner/caster named Swampthing will wear livewoodcore) that needs a house P pendant you are welcome to join me in running the whole chain, and finding out what I'm talking about :)

Being able to complete it, does not equal that it's fun. Coyle is annoying, long, and poorly designed.

[TPICKRELL]

Im not seeing this 10% penalty, and ive been running BOB + TTT 3x per day on each toon trying to farm epic mats for multiple toons.

I do see the ransack report the way you are describing it, because its reporting what your next run will be.

I'm still getting different results from what you are describing.

Yesterday morning, I ran 3 Rusted Blades. At the end of the session, /ransack reported 60% ransack penalty.

This morning, I got on and immediately did a /ransack. It reported a 10% ransack penalty. I then ran 1 Rusted Blades. The XP screen on completion indicated there was a 10% ransack penalty in place, and my XP total was down from the first run yesterday. After completion, /ransack reported a 30% Ransack penalty.

Not sure why you are seeing something different in BOB and TTT.

[era42]

Coyle??? IMO anyone who fancies himself or portrays himself as an "elite" power gamer type who complains about Coyle is immediately suspect.

Either A) they haven't run Threnal in years and simply have no clue, and obviously aren't as knowledgeable as they want to pretend; or B) they aren't very good at the game and are just pretending to be haughty power gamers on the forums, with their noses stuck up in the air at "casuals" even if they aren't much removed from being that themselves*.


So I assume you farm Hold for Reinforcements for exp? The quest is not hard (now that they upped coyles HP), but you do need to stay awake for the whole time because Coyle can still die really fast if you're careless, especially with mephits. Top that, it can be really annoying alone at level, without solid aoe spells it can be difficult to grab agro from all the mobs within time. With even a small party, it's not hard.

But, 15 minutes for what, 3k with first-timer bonuses. 15 minutes. 3k exp. Seriously. There's the cause for complaints, and any "elite" power gamer can immediately see how bad that is. Threnal has some quests that are decent exp/min (not good, but good enough), but something as bad as the Coyle quest makes the whole chain iffy. Run it for loot and get some exp as byproduct, but just for exp, not so much.