Feat question for druid monk build

[Rush007]

Currently playing a pure hybrid druid right now and with the changes to animal form casting not requiring 20 druid levels, splashing 2 monk seems like a no brainer. Here is what I am thinking for feats with the 18/2 split :

9 normal feats - 2 monk 1 human extra
Stance feats x3 - adept, master, grand master
Maximize
Empower
Quicken
Spell focus evocation - for ED Twists
Stunning Fist - monk feat
Precision - monk feat
Dodge - for knockdown prevention and 3% more dodge in nature warrior

3 Epic Feats
Empower Healing
Heighten
Improved Critical

2 Epic destiny feats
spell power cold or tactician
elusive target or guardian angel

(These are not in leveling order)

Question is are the stance feats worth more than say natural fighting x3 or two weapon fighting x3. Should I gut the Spell power feats + heighten to get either one of these? Melee damage will be much higher with the 2 levels of monk having the wolf form actually scale with unarmed progression from epic wraps and centered bonuses from EDs.

Enhancements 32 Nature warrior, 31 Natures herald and 17 to fill out healing amp in human or a mix of first tier of amp and getting fist of iron from a monk tree.

Goal is to stay a pure hybrid, be able to melee, cast, heal and CC.

[Charononus]

Natural fighting is 100% required to have all 3 feats for a wolf build.

Honestly I think you're trying to fit too much in, you might be better off staying in ele form with this build and fighting punchie style.

[Panzermeyer]

Honestly I think you're trying to fit too much in, you might be better off staying in ele form with this build and fighting punchie style.

I echo this statement. You are trying to make an uber melee and caster. You will likely be meh in both. Decide too go caster or go melee.

If you go melee, natural fighting is a must for the double strike in wolf form. That is alot of what you are basing your damage on.

If you go caster take heighten and empower heal soon. And Take on some of the Mental Toughness feats.

And since when does Dodge offer knockdown immunity? I thought it only offered dodge and access to further feats that would increase the value of a mobile fighting style.

[AzB]

And since when does Dodge offer knockdown immunity? I thought it only offered dodge and access to further feats that would increase the value of a mobile fighting style.

It offers a path to "four legs good" which is an enhancement that prevents knockdown. However, it is temporary and if your build isn't planning on using dodge, I don't think it's worth taking dodge just for that enhancement.

When druids are in animal form, they are considered to be animals. They should have the same knockdown resistance that the wolves in the Vale of Twilight have. But take your druid out there in wolf form and even with juiced up strength and tactics, you will find it hard to knock down any four legged creature... unless it's a druid in animal form. And for that matter, druids in animal form should not be outrun by monks. The fastest man in the world ran 27 mph. A wolf can run 40 mph, and a bear can hit that speed as well in short bursts. It is dumb that druids aren't faster than monks, and can be knocked down constantly by regular wolves while only having a small chance of ever tripping them.

Just myonionheadedopinion

[Rush007]

Adding some random thoughts and responses.

Four good legs is a beast form stance that you can only have one active at the time. It is bugged tho and you can have multiple. You don't get a buff icon so I questioned if it was even working but it does prevent some knockdowns. Example - drow priestess have comet fall and it is a balance check to remain standing, never fall down. Dragon's also I do not fall over either. Driders have that web line snare, strength check and it doesn't stop that. It is a stance and is always up as long as you are in animal form. Dodge feat gets me to 25% cap if I find a +10% item. 6 (dodge + enhance) + 10 item + 4 monk + 5 water stance = 25%

I never liked the natural fighting feats because they are so form specific. My playstyle I use every form for different situations. Water elemental if I want to do range magic dot damage and CC. Fire elemental for body of sun and undead or weak to fire enemies. It isn't so shabby either vs fall of truth dragon. Wolf form dps vs that dragon tanks, what 25 blunt DR, fortification for even less sneak attacks? Wall of fire, body of sun and swing that pure blade of flame. Wolf, dps for anything sneakable, bear rarely used for tanking. So natural fighting is a waste of a feat if I go elemental form.

With the two monk splash I could see using sireth and fire elemental form. To hit is not an issue, accuracy item, flank. Fury of wild can give THF feats and it is a solid ED all around for a druid.

What I am gaining for damage with 2 monk is 5d10 weapon dmg (EE knuckles, tier 1 twist) vs 1d10+2+2d6 sneak from not taking nature warrior capstone. About 3 weapon dice which can be multiplied from crits.

I guess I made up my mind - stances for the versatility. I do less damage melee than deep splashed melees or feat specific melees but magic damage shouldn't be discounted. A stunned foe hit with a maxxed empowered word of balance is solid.

[SerPounce]

I'm skeptical of a elemental/wolf hybrid. Seems like you want to be a caster that can stun stuff. I'd just embrace that and forget about animal forms. Without more specialization the DPS just isn't worth it.

Drop dodge, precision, and IC for the 2wf feats for 80% doublestrike with stunning fist. Or for more spell focus + mental toughness.

I just don't think you're going to find wolf/bear to be worth it. If you're not willing to invest in the feats, why invest the AP to make it work. Move those points to SH/ or monk.

But I'm biased, as that's what I do ;) http://calamitousguild.forumotion.com/t683-yhvain-drunken-master-v2

[Rush007]

TWF feats are not WAI I guess so not going to make a build with that.

[SerPounce]

TWF feats are not WAI I guess so not going to make a build with that.

It's an elemental build. 2WF is suppose to work as an elemental.

[Rush007]

So here are the numbers for proposed twf build:

Gear:
EE knuckles, tier one twist, reinforced fist for dice bump, air stance

Elemental TWF

5d6 + strength 10, + 7 enhancement, +3 Ram's might + 2d6 crown of summer = 25-55 + crown
2.5% double strike, 90% offhand from feats and monk, full strength to offhand handwraps
10% unarmed speed


Wolf Damage same gear different enhancements (nature's warrior 32)

5.5d10 + 3 flight, +7 weapon enhancement, +10 strength, +3 ram's might, +3 magic fang (caps at 10 total sadly could be another 2), +4 core nature warrior, + 4d6 sneak core nature warrior = 35.5-90 + sneak
10% double strike air
30% wolf speed

Going to assume dropping monk stance feats for TWF feats. I can't see dropping metas with the 6 SLA's you can pick up in seasons herald. Am I missing any numbers? Real question now is how much that 90% offhand comes into play vs the higher base and wolf speed. A lot of druid melee is built into the class and into wolf form.

[Rush007]

I can't seem to edit, but magic fang isn't capped can go over +10 enhancement. Missed .5 on the TWF for weapon dice, with monk levels they start at 1d6.

[Oldraven]

And for that matter, druids in animal form should not be outrun by monks. The fastest man in the world ran 27 mph. A wolf can run 40 mph, and a bear can hit that speed as well in short bursts. It is dumb that druids aren't faster than monks, and can be knocked down constantly by regular wolves while only having a small chance of ever tripping them.

Just myonionheadedopinion

You're looking at it from the wrong perspective on speed vs. a Monk.

A level 20 monk moves at a base of 90 feet per round, which calculates out to 15 feet per second, at a walk. At a full run, with the Run Feat, it's 75 feet per second. That's 450 feet a round. That's 4,500 feet a minute. 270,000 feet an hour. That's 51.1363636363636... etc Miles per Hour. It's supernaturally fast. It can be even faster with gear, like the Boots of Striding and Springing, which add 10 feet to the base calculation, Feats like Dash, which add another 5, Psionic feats like Speed of Thought for another 10, etc. etc. Not to mention spells like Expeditious retreat...


Basically, you're complaining that a Druid transformed into a wolf isn't faster than someone who has a landspeed capable of hustling on Interstates. The Monk ain't fully mortal after a certain point, and a lot of their powers are blatantly supernatural, one of the most visible being the fact that their jogging speed makes Usain Bolt look like a slowpoke.

[Charononus]

So here are the numbers for proposed twf build:

Gear:
EE knuckles, tier one twist, reinforced fist for dice bump, air stance

Elemental TWF

5d6 + strength 10, + 7 enhancement, +3 Ram's might + 2d6 crown of summer = 25-55 + crown
2.5% double strike, 90% offhand from feats and monk, full strength to offhand handwraps
10% unarmed speed


Wolf Damage same gear different enhancements (nature's warrior 32)

5.5d10 + 3 flight, +7 weapon enhancement, +10 strength, +3 ram's might, +3 magic fang (caps at 10 total sadly could be another 2), +4 core nature warrior, + 4d6 sneak core nature warrior = 35.5-90 + sneak
10% double strike air
30% wolf speed

Going to assume dropping monk stance feats for TWF feats. I can't see dropping metas with the 6 SLA's you can pick up in seasons herald. Am I missing any numbers? Real question now is how much that 90% offhand comes into play vs the higher base and wolf speed. A lot of druid melee is built into the class and into wolf form.

A monk has flurry of blows and no matter what turbine's math says attacks just as fast if not faster than a wolf + has the off hands.

[Rush007]

Furry of blows would apply to wolf too as it is considered unarmed.

[Charononus]

Furry of blows would apply to wolf too as it is considered unarmed.

Doesn't matter, monk gets the same amount of hits if not more than a non-exploiting wolf and that's with the wolf having the full natural fighting line.

[Rush007]

Full BAB helps attack speed which full monks get.

[SerPounce]

So here are the numbers for proposed twf build:

Gear:
EE knuckles, tier one twist, reinforced fist for dice bump, air stance

Elemental TWF

5d6 + strength 10, + 7 enhancement, +3 Ram's might + 2d6 crown of summer = 25-55 + crown
2.5% double strike, 90% offhand from feats and monk, full strength to offhand handwraps
10% unarmed speed


Wolf Damage same gear different enhancements (nature's warrior 32)

5.5d10 + 3 flight, +7 weapon enhancement, +10 strength, +3 ram's might, +3 magic fang (caps at 10 total sadly could be another 2), +4 core nature warrior, + 4d6 sneak core nature warrior = 35.5-90 + sneak
10% double strike air
30% wolf speed

Going to assume dropping monk stance feats for TWF feats. I can't see dropping metas with the 6 SLA's you can pick up in seasons herald. Am I missing any numbers? Real question now is how much that 90% offhand comes into play vs the higher base and wolf speed. A lot of druid melee is built into the class and into wolf form.

Adamintine knuckles aren't going to be your best bet for elemental wraps. Try thunder and lightning for +1.5W, 8-32 lightning, 8-32 sonic

Also keep in mind that it's not an otherwise equal comparison, you're getting x2.5 longer cooldowns in wolf form (you said you're going t5 SH right) so that's a 150 sec cooldown for storm of vengence, etc. you also get mantle of the icy soul or body of the sun for debuffs/more DPS in elemental (so for raw dps add 20d6/3 sec), immunity to stuns, caster lvl increases, etc. And you can dump all/most of those points in natures warrior for more seasons herold and monk enhancements.

I just don't think wolf is worth it unless you really build for it. Otherwise elementals do similar, and maybe more damage, with so many other benefits.

[Rush007]

Adamintine knuckles aren't going to be your best bet for elemental wraps. Try thunder and lightning for +1.5W, 8-32 lightning, 8-32 sonic

Also keep in mind that it's not an otherwise equal comparison, you're getting x2.5 longer cooldowns in wolf form (you said you're going t5 SH right) so that's a 150 sec cooldown for storm of vengence, etc. you also get mantle of the icy soul or body of the sun for debuffs/more DPS in elemental (so for raw dps add 20d6/3 sec), immunity to stuns, caster lvl increases, etc. And you can dump all/most of those points in natures warrior for more seasons herold and monk enhancements.

I just don't think wolf is worth it unless you really build for it. Otherwise elementals do similar, and maybe more damage, with so many other benefits.

Elemental form I would go for tier 5 seasons herald, word of balance SLA, crown of summer, DC's. Wolf form i'd go nature's warrior tier five for just the 1 point into animal casting cooldown reduction. Wild healing is a low % proc chance, celerity too long of cooldown and alpha strike is cute but doesn't make the cut. SLA's I've found do not get increased in wolf form. This is handy for storm of vengeance SLA.

Here are some numbers for dps estimates of TWF and wolf form with 2 monk splash.

Source for hasted unarmed attack per minute
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144-Vanshilar-s-Attack-Speed-Index-and-Formulae

111 unarmed x 2.5% = 3
number of offhand attacks 114 x .9 offhand = 102
Average damage 30.5-60.5 = 40.5 average
Number of attacks 102 + 114 = 216
Number of crits 216 * .20 = 43

45.5 x 173 = 7871.5
45.5 x 2 x 43 = 3913
216 x 7 crown of summer = 1512

12001/60 200.01 dps (first estimate missing deadly +10)
13296.5/60 221.6 dps

Source for hasted wolf form attacks per minute
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/380014-Building-a-wolf-form-druid/page3?

130 wolf melee x 10% double strike = number of attacks 143
Average damage 42-97 = 69.5

69.5 x 114 = 7923
69.5 x 3 x 29 = 6046.5
143 x 14 sneak damage = 2002

14966/60 249.43 dps (first estimate missing deadly +10)
15971/60 266.19 dps

Per feat of natural fighting dps increase
6% more double strike
64.5 x 7 = 451.5
64.5 x 3 x 2 = 387

838.5/60 13.975 dps
41.9 dps for 3 feats

Assumptions - no misses, no grazing hits, didn't calculate in 5% miss on 1. What this shows is wolf at my current gear level is higher dps than TWF for melee damage with EE knuckle. However a few key points. TWF gains on any monk ki attack, strength increase or weapon mod like holy due to the amount of attacks. It is also 7 to hit behind the wolf build, 5 from magic fang and the -2 from TWF. It is actually more because winter wolf gets bigger flanking bonuses. This is important because STR starts and 14 and doesn't not increase with levels, wisdom does to be viable for DC casting. I did not calculate seeker or the +6 crit enhancement which would be a slight advantage to the x3 multi for wolf.

Here is druid exploiter damage - wolf form with TWF feats for 80% NOT 90% double strike

218 x 69.5 = 15151
54 x 69.5 = 11259
272 x 14 = 3808

28318/60 471.9 dps (difference in not having power attack)
30218/60 503.63 dps

It is very possible I'm overlooking some math. Its late and maybe I didn't average right.

[SerPounce]

1. Slotting those EE knuckles with dps will benefit the elemental form due to higher hits/min. As will using other wraps that depend more on procs.

2. Add in body of the sun for elemental: 20d6=70 *3 (300 spellpower) / 3 (3 sec tics) =70dps that alone puts elemental ahead. [edit: actually more from max CL increases from elemental and season when applicable).

3. You know you can only have one tree with t5 right? So it's either the cooldown reduction for wolf or all the SH stuff, not both.

[Rush007]

1. Slotting those EE knuckles with dps will benefit the elemental form due to higher hits/min. As will using other wraps that depend more on procs.

2. Add in body of the sun for elemental: 20d6=70 *3 (300 spellpower) / 3 (3 sec tics) =70dps that alone puts elemental ahead. [edit: actually more from max CL increases from elemental and season when applicable).

3. You know you can only have one tree with t5 right? So it's either the cooldown reduction for wolf or all the SH stuff, not both.

1. Yes, running the numbers did show that adding effects or more strength scaled dps better as TWF. Gap was 49 dps, add five its 44 dps, another 39 dps. Ivy wraps or thunder in lightning could easily be more dps.

2. Body of sun is a strong spell, I do use it quite a bit, good dps to add.

3. Yes only one t5, wolf would get spell casting t5 natures warrior, TWF would get t5 herald.

Biggest question now is to hit, that 7 to hit difference could be big. Could be as bad as missing on a 9 in some cases. TWF dps would tank then. Next step i'll go into an EE and melee some mobs with a quarterstave and then in wolf with magic fang to see the hit difference. TWF would be further down 2 more but I don't have the feats.

[Pilgrim1]

you really need to decide what direction you are interested in going in. Druids have a lot of options. I currently play a caster druid and have been 2-manning epic-elite (with a FvS). The only EE we have yet to do are the stormhorns. I say this to tell you what my perspective is.

Secondly all the advice below is focused to being viable in EE play.

In order to land your spells in EE (earthquake and blind mostly) you really have to pump evocation all the way, every point really counts. This means that among other things your feat list is very limited and your almost required to be in water form for the -4 reflex saves. If in this case your splashing monk for extra melee damage you can eather go water elemental form or wolf form. But in both cases a build like this is takeing monk for the stunning fist. For animal form I would suggest you only take stunning fist and improved critical. The rest of the stuff mentioned by these posters will increase your DPS but not as much as those to feats would and you are very feet starved. If you plan on staying in water form then your better off with IC + the TWF line for your damage bonus. The up-side of this is that you still get that nice water form debuff. The down side is it costs more feats.

In both cases you want a 17/3 split and max wisdom.

I would suggest something like:
Evocation
G.evocation
Epic Evocation
Maximize
quicken
empower
empower healing
Stunning fist

IC if wolf + toughness/epic toughness
TWF line if elemental

or something along thoes lines.

If your not planning on being able to land earthquake in EE and just want to be a melee healer then you should not focus on spell DC at all.

If you are only interested in running hard then disregard all of the above and just twist in energy burst.

[Rush007]

you really need to decide what direction you are interested in going in. Druids have a lot of options. I currently play a caster druid and have been 2-manning epic-elite (with a FvS). The only EE we have yet to do are the stormhorns. I say this to tell you what my perspective is.

Secondly all the advice below is focused to being viable in EE play.

In order to land your spells in EE (earthquake and blind mostly) you really have to pump evocation all the way, every point really counts. This means that among other things your feat list is very limited and your almost required to be in water form for the -4 reflex saves. If in this case your splashing monk for extra melee damage you can eather go water elemental form or wolf form. But in both cases a build like this is takeing monk for the stunning fist. For animal form I would suggest you only take stunning fist and improved critical. The rest of the stuff mentioned by these posters will increase your DPS but not as much as those to feats would and you are very feet starved. If you plan on staying in water form then your better off with IC + the TWF line for your damage bonus. The up-side of this is that you still get that nice water form debuff. The down side is it costs more feats.

In both cases you want a 17/3 split and max wisdom.

I would suggest something like:
Evocation
G.evocation
Epic Evocation
Maximize
quicken
empower
empower healing
Stunning fist

IC if wolf + toughness/epic toughness
TWF line if elemental

or something along thoes lines.

If your not planning on being able to land earthquake in EE and just want to be a melee healer then you should not focus on spell DC at all.

If you are only interested in running hard then disregard all of the above and just twist in energy burst.

I had considered the 17/3 split but ultimately went with the 18/2 instead. Here is what you gain from 3 monk:

faster run speed
finishing moves which are based on monk level for DC, a few handy ones -25% mana and earthdragon
BAB ?

Here is what you gain for 18 druid

Level 9 spell slot - snowslide which is runspeed basically
2 core enhancements, sla storm of vengeance, 1 dmg 1d6 sneak and prr for bear

(Could easily build tankish bear if you go for the prr. 20 bear, 15 earth stance, 15 shinatao, 15 flowers ed, 14 blue slot very high dodge and AC, threat from earthstance, spell threat from roar)

Storm of vengeance SLA is important because I wouldn't have it prepped otherwise and it is an important spell for debuffing for CC with annual susurrus.

My original build had thought of taking the entire evocation DC line. I took just one to open up ED twists which the -10 to save proc is the most vital. I haven't found that missing that 2 dc for 2 feats have made a difference yet in EE. Done Wheeldon but not stormhorns. Druids are feat starved, I opted for dodge and empower healing on the pure 20 druid. I do switch to water elemental if CC isn't landing and take one for the team. Monk splash for CC with stances I'd gain an additional 4 wisdom from water stance. Still have 5 wisdom from enhancements, 2 nature's warrior, 2 herald, 1 human with the option to add another 2 from boosts if I wanted. This splash I would gain 2 dc if I desired to be in water stance. I run with a bard 90% of the time so I do get inspire and song which might be why I can get away with saving two feats.

Note on dodge and four good legs. I just ran EH tor last night for farming some helmets and not having this was noticeable. Random giant knockdown, jarilith trip, dragon tail swipes all put me down when NONE of that did before. I quickly got it back after that run. Getting knocked down is the number 2 cause of death. #1 is failing reflex saves. Monk splash addresses this.

I would consider heighten a needed feat for lightning bolt SLA, sunbeam for blinds, a lot of DC for jaws of winter and gain the same 1 dc for earthquake.

[Rush007]

So I stepped into POP EE for some testing. First fighter mob pulled solo. No ship buffs, same +6 scimitar, only ram's might and magic fang as a spells. I did not get what I was expecting.

With 42 attack bonus on character sheet using sword and shield, miss on 1, grazing on 2-7 and hits on the rest.

With 58 attack bonus on character sheeting using sword and shield vs same mob in wolf form with magic fang, miss on 1, grazing on 2-7 and hits on rest.

I'm perplexed. Why is there so much grazing hit and why isn't there at least a spread for a difference with the different attack bonuses?

Turned off precision:

Sword shield - 9 grazing
Wolf - 8 grazing

Mob blinded with precision off

Sword Shield - 7 grazing
Wolf - 7 grazing

Mob blinded with precision on

Sword and shield - 6 grazing
Wolf - 6 grazing

Something seems off. Is there no flanking bonus to blinded mobs or is that totally positional?

[AzB]

You're looking at it from the wrong perspective on speed vs. a Monk.

A level 20 monk moves at a base of 90 feet per round, which calculates out to 15 feet per second, at a walk. At a full run, with the Run Feat, it's 75 feet per second. That's 450 feet a round. That's 4,500 feet a minute. 270,000 feet an hour. That's 51.1363636363636... etc Miles per Hour. It's supernaturally fast. It can be even faster with gear, like the Boots of Striding and Springing, which add 10 feet to the base calculation, Feats like Dash, which add another 5, Psionic feats like Speed of Thought for another 10, etc. etc. Not to mention spells like Expeditious retreat...


Basically, you're complaining that a Druid transformed into a wolf isn't faster than someone who has a landspeed capable of hustling on Interstates. The Monk ain't fully mortal after a certain point, and a lot of their powers are blatantly supernatural, one of the most visible being the fact that their jogging speed makes Usain Bolt look like a slowpoke.

I see what you're saying, but I think your logic is a bit clouded by your monk love. ;)

First off, in my point I'm clearly talking about base speed. Secondly, you mention gear. Everyone can get the same or very similar gear for moving quickly, including spells like expeditious retreat. So that's not really an issue in a side by side comparison. Lastly, your claim that a monk is supernatural so there's no comparison does not take into consideration that a man turning into a wolf is also supernatural. Now clearly once we get into supernatural issues, everything goes out the window because... well, it's "magic".

But the point is that the base speed of a natural human is typically about half the base speed of a wolf. Or even a bear, although the bear's speed and the human's speed are short sprints while the wolf can sustain fairly significant speeds for quite a while. Sure you can put magic boots on them and cast haste and other quickening spells on them, but they will both get the same degree of advantage from those boosts. The base speed is where the issue lies.