Nerfs that defy common sense (aka laziness)

[01000010]

Ive played this game a long time, there have been a lot of unreasonable nerfs in this game. Oftentimes the nerfs appear to have been side effects of turbine not wanting to fix game mechanics to work as intended, this is getting worse recently.

It is lazy and irresponsible and it hurts the game, many of my friends have left after ridiculous nerfs and I could go on for hours detailing them.

The two most recent however are near the top of the list as far being nonsensical, and since newer players can relate to recent nerfs I will use these as examples.


A: 3 lvls monk(ninja ass), previously allowed adding dex mod to all pierce and slash weaps as long as you remained centered. Now only adds dex to damage on shuriken and centered slash/pierce melee weapons(but not all).

Here are the facts:

1: this previously allowed bows to use dex for damage mod IF you were centered and take the zen archery feat
2: this was supposed to allow normally bludgeoning monk weaps to use dex for damage if you could somehow add pierce or slash damage(this was stated by a dev).
3: there are many other enhancements for other classes/races that allow dex to dmg for many of these same weapons, so it is a directed nerf, not just a nerf to dex to dmg for x weap.

Arguments:

1: Didn't ninjas use bows? Were they ineffective with them unless on steroids?
2: Shortswords aren't normally monk weapons, so bows fit squarely into the same category as shortswords in that they are a weapon that can be a monk weapon if specially trained(like what taking zen archery feat signifies).
3: It makes more sense for a bow to get its damage from dex than about any other weapon as far as I can see, and not only when you have pointy ears.

Conclusions:

1: They didn't want to fix handwraps to work as intended with this enhancement, so many types of unarmed martial arts are based on quickness rather than brute strength, this is lazy.
2: Either bows got the nerf to help justify not bothering to fix handwraps or they want to pigeonhole ranged builds into needing strength again to be even slightly effective(which makes no sense, some of the greatest archers historically were not big strong peoples, they were agile).


B: Sting of the ninja(also 3 lvls monk ninja ass) previously added a poison procing on crits to all slash/pierce weaps while centered. Again pigeonholed into shuriken and specific(but not all) slash/pierce melee weapons.

The Facts:

1 & 2: see above
3: this is poison... but you need to be centered to use. Rogues use poison without needing to be centered.

Arguments:

1. Maybe im assuming to much, is this some sort of mind poison that you can only telekinetically apply to a weapon that feels balanced in your hands? Why cant I apply poison to any weapon I want? why cant I waterproof a quiver and pour a couple inches of it where the arrowheads will rest in it? Nonsensical. I can throw prepared flashbombs at will but I cant apply prepared poison? Silly.
2. There is no reason poison cant be applied to any weapon with slash or pierce ability, regardless of the "normal" damage type od said weapon.


Conclusions:

1: They didn't want to fix handwraps to work as intended with this enhancement, still lazy.
2: Bows got the nerf to help justify not bothering to fix handwraps, maybe in this case they are afraid of poison exploit used after manyshot/10k as well, still not justified and make no sense historically, arrows have been poisoned for 1000s of years, and poison works on any weapon irl, although rarely were weaps poisoned that could often kill outright without it.


Take the effort to do things right or you will lose more customers, its that simple.


Edited due to some bad info.

[Lorianna]

A: 3 lvls monk(ninja ass), previously allowed adding dex mod to all pierce and slash weaps as long as you remained centered. Now only adds dex to damage on shuriken shortswords and kama.

It still allows dex to damage so long as the weapon is a ki weapon and is slashing or piercing. If you have Whirling Steel Strike you can use dex for damage with longswords. My monk/ranger does it. Kensai/monks who have One With the Blade can use it with their chosen weapon as well. All they did was change it from "any weapon" to "melee weapon". Yes, it prevents dex-to-damage for monk-archers, which is unfortunate, but I don't believe it was done out of "laziness".

As far as not working with certain handwraps, that may or may not be an oversight. Who knows.

[01000010]

go read it again, it says shortswords kama and shuriken specifically, if its working with longswords you are about to be nerfed as well otherwise theyed have to admit the real reason for the changes.

Not only that but it does allow shuriken, which aren't melee weaps...

You could make an argument saying bows and shuriken aren't "ki" weaps since they don't generate ki, but they certainly use ki for 10k stars.

[Raithe]

It is lazy and irresponsible and it hurts the game, many of my friends have left after ridiculous nerfs and I could go on for hours detailing them.


I would agree that nerfs hurt the game. They make people feel insecure about the purposes for which game mechanics are built (if you have to nerf something, you didn't take the time to make sure it made sense in the first place). Imbalance hurts the game worse, especially with how far DDO and many other MMOs have taken it. So nerfs are as necessary to flawed design as being able to shift the balance weight on a scale in more than one direction.



The two most recent however are near the top of the list as far being nonsensical,...


What is nonsensical about the abilities you describe is mostly that they exist in the first place. D&D was built around the idea of abstracting combat in certain ways. Dexterity was used to affect how much damage you do by controlling how often you score a "hit." Strength was given the aspects of affecting your ability to hit with weapons that benefit from harder swings and jockeying for position. It was also given an extra ability to affect damage again, by adding to the damage die.

Everything that strays from those abstractions makes the entire combat system less coherent. So having dexterity-to-damage only apply to certain weapons is actually more coherent than the predecessor. You could claim that ninjas receive special training with those particular types.



Take the effort to do things right or you will lose more customers, its that simple.

Its funny you should say that, because glaring exploits in character design mechanics has cost Turbine way more customers than any supposed "nerfing." You seem quite obsessed with finding those exploits. I would say your entire DDO career is centered around making fewer people want to play this game.

[Lorianna]

go read it again, it says shortswords kama and shuriken specifically, if its working with longswords you are about to be nerfed as well otherwise theyed have to admit the real reason for the changes.

Let me quote you the ability:

Advanced Ninja Training
Requires: Basic Ninja Training (rank 1)
Requires: Monk level 3

While you are centered, you can use your dexterity modifier for damage with shortswords, kama and shuriken. You also gain a chance based on your dexterity score to throw an extra shuriken per attack.

If another ability allows you to remain centered while wielding other types of melee weapon, then those weapons will also get the benefit of Advanced Ninja Training if they are normally piercing or slashing weapons.

Note the bolded part.



Not only that but it does allow shuriken, which aren't melee weaps...

You could make an argument saying bows and shuriken aren't "ki" weaps since they don't generate ki, but they certainly use ki for 10k stars.

They're not melee weapons, but they're traditional "ninja" weapons.

[01000010]

I would agree that nerfs hurt the game. They make people feel insecure about the purposes for which game mechanics are built (if you have to nerf something, you didn't take the time to make sure it made sense in the first place). Imbalance hurts the game worse, especially with how far DDO and many other MMOs have taken it. So nerfs are as necessary to flawed design as being able to shift the balance weight on a scale in more than one direction.



What is nonsensical about the abilities you describe is mostly that they exist in the first place. D&D was built around the idea of abstracting combat in certain ways. Dexterity was used to affect how much damage you do by controlling how often you score a "hit." Strength was given the aspects of affecting your ability to hit with weapons that benefit from harder swings and jockeying for position. It was also given an extra ability to affect damage again, by adding to the damage die.

Everything that strays from those abstractions makes the entire combat system less coherent. So having dexterity-to-damage only apply to certain weapons is actually more coherent than the predecessor. You could claim that ninjas receive special training with those particular types.



Its funny you should say that, because glaring exploits in character design mechanics has cost Turbine way more customers than any supposed "nerfing." You seem quite obsessed with finding those exploits. I would say your entire DDO career is centered around making fewer people want to play this game.


They didn't nerf this because it makes no sense, they nerfed it because they didn't want to make it work as advertised, that's pretty obvious imo. Dex to damage does make sense for ranged weapons... aim you know? Hitting is great(dex), aiming for a spot less armored is better(dex to damage), arrow in the eye would be a crit.

So straying from abstraction can make a system less coherent, wow, no point in argueing that, lol.

I do not exploit, I do carefully design my characters to get the most out of game mechanics, if you don't or cant do that, it is your choice or ineptidude, everyone making better builds than you isn't necessarily exploiting.

Ive gotten so many people to play this game, and I tried hard to get them to stay. People that expect turbine to do better keep playing, those that don't quit eventually, even if they try to justify things like this while here.

[01000010]

Let me quote you the ability:

Advanced Ninja Training
Requires: Basic Ninja Training (rank 1)
Requires: Monk level 3

While you are centered, you can use your dexterity modifier for damage with shortswords, kama and shuriken. You also gain a chance based on your dexterity score to throw an extra shuriken per attack.

If another ability allows you to remain centered while wielding other types of melee weapon, then those weapons will also get the benefit of Advanced Ninja Training if they are normally piercing or slashing weapons.

Note the bolded part.



They're not melee weapons, but they're traditional "ninja" weapons.

Youre right my bad, I was looking right at it when I typed it up to. Blinded by anger at this enormous nerf for my build I suppose.

I guess people not using bows, handwraps, staffs etc don't mind this steath nerf then.

[Lorianna]

Youre right my bad, I was looking right at it when I typed it up to. Blinded by anger at this enormous nerf for my build I suppose.

I guess people not using bows, handwraps, staffs etc don't mind this steath nerf then.

I can understand the rationale for doing it, though. If you allow monks to convert dex to damage for every weapon they can use, strength becomes a dump-stat for them, which means monks would only ever have to focus on three stats: dex, wis, con. Likely they wanted monks to have to branch out a bit more into other stats (or at least strength) for certain weapons.

Monks are already a very, VERY popular splash class. If 3 levels (or so) could turn your dex to damage? You'd see a LOT more monk splashes; it would almost be a go-to splash for rogues and rangers, so they wouldn't need strength at all. Not to mention if you allow a small investment into monk to turn dex to damage with bows, it makes the elven ability to do so pale in comparison. 24 points or so vs 5-10? Plus the monk levels get me evasion and other goodies? Yeah, no brainer.

Does it jigger with some builds? Sure. But monks shouldn't have EVERY advantage.

[Charononus]

dex to damage and any other weapon mod to damage shouldn't exist anyways, dex makes sense to hit and no sense to damage.

[erethizon]

I assumed it was less an accident than an intentional change. It is getting hard to find an archer that does not have monk splashed in. The only real choices were to take away the ability with bows or to make it a higher level ability, but then actual monks would have to wait much longer to use it as well. Shuriken are the classic role-play ranged weapon for monks so they left it for those, but may be trying to do away with monk archers.

It is unfortunate for people that built around it (I read an Ivy Handwraps build that is ruined now), but people will simply TR their characters and everything will be fine. These crazy builds usually come from people that like designing builds and now they get to go back to the drawing board and do it again.

[01000010]

dex to damage and any other weapon mod to damage shouldn't exist anyways, dex makes sense to hit and no sense to damage.

I absolutely disagree, wether in a game or irl, dexterity(which encompasses speed and agility in this game) is a huge factor in damage.

George foreman, massive strength, ive seen him knock people out of the ring with a jab, his power comes from the size and weight of his hands combined with the power to accelerate them decently.

Ali however was mostly speed and agility, he could knock you out with one punch because it came out of nowhere, crazy angles to get by the other boxers defenses, more damage, pinpoint accuracy.

[Charononus]

I absolutely disagree, wether in a game or irl, dexterity(which encompasses speed and agility in this game) is a huge factor in damage.

George foreman, massive strength, ive seen him knock people out of the ring with a jab, his power comes from the size and weight of his hands combined with the power to accelerate them decently.

Ali however was mostly speed and agility, he could knock you out with one punch because it came out of nowhere, crazy angles to get by the other boxers defenses, more damage, pinpoint accuracy.

Ali was still a strong man not an 8 str weakling.

[01000010]

Ali was still a strong man not an 8 str weakling.

True, but he did increase his damage with dexterity, and he beat a lot of stronger men.

What i dont get is pdk adding charisma to damage, lol. But then its bugged for shortsword monks anyhow.

[Charononus]

True, but he did increase his damage with dexterity, and he beat a lot of stronger men.

What i dont get is pdk adding charisma to damage, lol. But then its bugged for shortsword monks anyhow.

I think ali compared to foreman would be more comparable to pre-u19 barbarian vs monk, one uses there str to provide slow massive blows, one uses their str to provide rapid strikes.

As far as the game goes this is an academic debate, but that's the way I see that the system was trying for.

[Lorianna]

I actually saw trollsalots last brilliant post sine i wasnt logged in yet, does he ever actually say anything of merit? And what bs, i didnt report him, i just put him on my ignore list.

Ok man, i apologize for making you look stupid on some other thread, now why dont you stop stalking me and spewing accusations and calling names like a child.

Lorianna, you definitely win the prize for most intelligent opposition. You have arguements and they make sense, impressive.

As far as the elf deal with bow dmg goes, halfling get same for shuriken, and other races for other weaps(including shortswords), so they are targetting bows specifically. Additionally its only one enhancement fir the races, certainly not make or break.

As far as the power of monk splash goes, well that depends on build, but in this instance the builds that i were using that this nerf affected werent monk splashes, they were primarily monk levels.

Oh, I'm certain changing it for bows was a specific, thought-out change, of course. As I said, the reasons for it are likely that they wanted to spread things out a bit further with the new enhancement system, and provide reasons for other builds, other combinations.

An elven ranger, for instance, under the old system really didn't get very much; elves were kind of an inferior racial choice for anything other than a spell-pen wizard/sorc. That was their only real bonus. Now elves get the ability to convert their dex to damage with their racial weapons, which takes advantage of their innate bonuses to dex -- something that makes sense for the race, and gives people an incentive to play an elf archer, which is kind of the iconic image of the race (Legolas, pewpew!).

With halflings, in the normal D&D rules (and in DDO) they get bonuses for thrown weapons. So, in the new system, they get that as well. It applies to any returning thrown weapon.

And so on, and so forth.

Yes, it means that a pure monk archer won't be able to simply pump dex and do crazy amounts of damage through a single feat (zen archery). Again, that's likely intended; monks are really meant to be a melee class, with some (semi-minor) ability with ranged weapons, primarily through Ten Thousand Stars. But they're mostly a melee class, and the tweaks to their enhancements reinforce that. My guess is that they wanted to shift the focus of the "master archer" back more towards the ranger, rather than the monk.

I'm going to have to tweak my own monkcher, but eh, I can live with it. I'm sure I'll be able to find an interesting new setup for her.

[01000010]

I understand where youre coming from as far as the iconic ranged guy being elf, thrown guy being halfling, scimitar weilding drow etc etc. But i personnally cant stand being shoehorned based on a few dnd books from years ago. I have no interest in imagining im legolas or frodo personally.

As far as dex to bow being massive damage thats just not true, strength can be buffed far higher than dex. Going with dex to bonus on bows is a choice for synergy, not max bow dps.

Nerfing multiclass synergy that isnt overpowered is just not neccessary or good for the game.

[Daitengu]

That it now doesnt work with any handwraps or vorpal fists is truly sad. The "normally" part is just downright stupid. Either it deals slashing/piercing damage or it does not.
Actually it make a lot of the ninja tree useless for handwraps users and not everyone is excited about shintao. On top of that i dont know any great kama or shuriken at epic level and the better short swords are even alignment restricted.

[Failedlegend]

Don't forget that a Druid Monk in Bear or wolf form can't use the Ninja spy abilities either despite bothe dealing piercing damage. (Wolf form even deals piercing AND slashing)

[katz]

lol. alrightie then. tinfoil hats OFF please...

the REAL reason this was CHANGED (note, not nerfed, changed) was because it was NOT WAI before... yeah, you read that right.

does improved crit: piercing work on bows? no. you need to take imp crit: ranged. in that light expecting an ability that works on PIERCING weapons to work on bows is kinda silly. ALSO... it was bugged to allow it to work that way, because it was OVERWRITING bow strength for those characters who had both... giving dex to damage even if the str was higher...

and before you get your panties in a wad about it... yeah, it DID affect me some... i am currently running an elven rogue/monk/druid acrobat/spy with zen archery and a tiny splash into AA for some flavor... the dex to damage was a nice unexpected bonus that i couldn't figure out where it was even coming from (no, i don't have "grace").

sorry you got burned, dude, but what you did was the modern equivalent of when paladins were ALL KotC because it hit everything for extra damage and not just outsiders.

[Failedlegend]

dex to damage and any other weapon mod to damage shouldn't exist anyways, dex makes sense to hit and no sense to damage.

Tell that to a 90 year 110 pound Shintao Master that lays flat a 27 year old 250lb MMA champion

@Katz: When the issue was brought up on the lama forums the devs said it was a bug that stuff like ivy wraps, vorpal fists, brawling gloves, etc. should be working and would be fixed in the future.

[Charononus]

Tell that to a 90 year 110 pound Shintao Master that lays flat a 27 year old 250lb MMA champion

SS or it didn't happen.

In all seriousness got a link for that? because it sounds hollywood rather real life, and even if it's real life average person str is suppossed to be 10 I bet that 90 year old is still in shape and would be around 12-14.

[Daitengu]

For the bow you are right but slashing/piercing unarmed attack should work IMNSHO.

[Failedlegend]

SS or it didn't happen.

In all seriousness got a link for that? because it sounds hollywood rather real life, and even if it's real life average person str is supposed to be 10 I bet that 90 year old is still in shape and would be around 12-14.

DnD =/= Real Life

Seriously we have the ability to have Charisma to attack/damage and to conjure fireballs and demons and your arguing that something that does exist in real life finesse fighters shouldn't exist in DDO.

[Charononus]

DnD =/= Real Life

Seriously we have the ability to have Charisma to attack/damage and to conjure fireballs and demons and your arguing that something that does exist in real life finesse fighters shouldn't exist in DDO.

So there are mma champions in dnd? Where? It was your analogy.

[Daitengu]

Tell that to a 90 year 110 pound Shintao Master that lays flat a 27 year old 250lb MMA championWhat are you trying to say? You want age to damage?

[Chai]

SS or it didn't happen.

In all seriousness got a link for that? because it sounds hollywood rather real life, and even if it's real life average person str is suppossed to be 10 I bet that 90 year old is still in shape and would be around 12-14.

In the real combat arts strength doesn't have much to do with it. Real strength doesn't come from the arms and pecs, which is another illusion our western eyes will see when guys are fighting in shorts with no shirts on. Real strength comes from the core, where the CoG is, and when that is rotated correctly, the arms and legs are merely extensions. The same goes for ground fighting, joint locks, etc. Technique generates far more power then raw strength in orders of magnitude. Where the messed up in D&D is they allowed str to be a to-hit stat. Dex should always be the to-hit stat and str the damage mod stat. A hulking brute with a two handed ax and the RL equivalent of 8 dex would cut his own arm or leg off before hed harm anyone else.

[Chai]

So there are mma champions in dnd? Where? It was your analogy.

Grappling was a staple combat form in D&D since the early 80s. Most MMA champs are good ground fighters with a secondary emphasis on striking.

[Bridge_Dweller]

Tell that to a 90 year 110 pound Shintao Master that lays flat a 27 year old 250lb MMA champion

That nonsense is all myth.

[Kalimah]

go read it again, it says shortswords kama and shuriken specifically, if its working with longswords you are about to be nerfed as well otherwise theyed have to admit the real reason for the changes.

Not only that but it does allow shuriken, which aren't melee weaps...

You could make an argument saying bows and shuriken aren't "ki" weaps since they don't generate ki, but they certainly use ki for 10k stars.

I haven't seen any indication that they plan on removing melee centered weapons from sting of ninja for kensai monks using blades or daggers. I checked my kop and axe centered kensai's and both have no problems with sting's poison. I also get dex to damage and to hit on both.

This seems to be a nerf against the monks with bows only.

[Failedlegend]

This seems to be a nerf against the monks with bows only.

because its bad enough that we don't generate Ki

[AsburyParker]

Dex should always be the to-hit stat and str the damage mod stat.

This is something that I have considered for some time. Not sure why this is not the case in DDO. Maybe there is a good reason, but it makes more sense to me that Dex should be the base stat to hit and Str is the base hit to damage (i.e., not including any class specific modification like Chr to hit/damage).

[Oxarhamar]

Don't forget that a Druid Monk in Bear or wolf form can't use the Ninja spy abilities either despite bothe dealing piercing damage. (Wolf form even deals piercing AND slashing)

it doesn't matter that wolf or bear form deal slashing or piercing damage because, natural attacks are considered bludgeoning hence being effected by IPC bludgeoning.

from ninja spy "If another ability allows you to remain centered while wielding other types of melee weapon, then those weapons will also get the benefit of Advanced Ninja Training if they are normally piercing or slashing weapons".

the druid animal forms deal slashing and piercing damage but, they are still considered unarmed which is a bludgeoning weapon.

this is WAI to not work with unarmed

[Oxarhamar]

dex to damage and any other weapon mod to damage shouldn't exist anyways, dex makes sense to hit and no sense to damage.

what makes no sense is bow strength!

Unless your not strong enough to draw the bow then strength has nothing to do with the force of an arrow that has to do with the bow itself.

I agree that dex to damage is silly altogether

I much preferred the system we had in Ultima Online

Strength made you hit harder with melee weapons. Dex made you swing faster with light melee weapons and fire faster with bows and Xbows.

[erethizon]

because its bad enough that we don't generate Ki

I think this is just another clue that monk was not meant to be a bow using class. It isn't that you can't play a throwing dagger barbarian, it is that the class is not made for that specialty. Same is true with monks and bows. Since update 19 I have seen the number of monk archers skyrocket and this will hopefully help fix that. It is not that everyone has to play as a cookie cutter, but if you play a class that was specifically made to specialize in something other than what you are using it for you should expect to do your job poorly. It is not that a wizard that chooses to specialize in melee cannot do a reasonably good job (with spells like tensers), but it will always pale when compared to a fighter or barbarian that was made to do those things. Monk archers should be the same way. And the last thing this game needs is any additional reasons to splash monk or rogue. We already have a huge portion of the player base walking around with evasion to trivialize half the content we don't need to encourage any more to join them.

[Chai]

I think this is just another clue that monk was not meant to be a bow using class. It isn't that you can't play a throwing dagger barbarian, it is that the class is not made for that specialty. Same is true with monks and bows. Since update 19 I have seen the number of monk archers skyrocket and this will hopefully help fix that. It is not that everyone has to play as a cookie cutter, but if you play a class that was specifically made to specialize in something other than what you are using it for you should expect to do your job poorly. It is not that a wizard that chooses to specialize in melee cannot do a reasonably good job (with spells like tensers), but it will always pale when compared to a fighter or barbarian that was made to do those things. Monk archers should be the same way.

This would be incorrect for this game, considering the zen archery feat is a martial arts feat that can be taken in a monk feat slot. Because of 10k stars working with bows, we see alot of synergy using a minumum of 6 monk levels on an archer. You can specialize in archery just like you can specialize in melee.


And the last thing this game needs is any additional reasons to splash monk or rogue. We already have a huge portion of the player base walking around with evasion to trivialize half the content we don't need to encourage any more to join them.

The enhancement pass introduced far more reasons to multiclass monk into just about any melee or ranged build, as being centered while using a good portion of the melee weapons available in game, as well as bows, will likely see people adding 6-12 monk levels to most non casting classes - and many of those do 2-3 level splashes of monk as well. :p

[Failedlegend]

it doesn't matter that wolf or bear form deal slashing or piercing damage because, natural attacks are considered bludgeoning hence being effected by IPC bludgeoning.

A) Its IC Bludgeoning not IPC

B) Animal Form requiring IC: Bludgeon is a bug the proper way for it to function is bear form should be able to utilize either IC: Pierce or Bludgeon and Wolf Form can utilize IC: Slash or Pierce.

[Oxarhamar]

A) Its IC Bludgeoning not IPC

B) Animal Form requiring IC: Bludgeon is a bug the proper way for it to function is bear form should be able to utilize either IC: Pierce or Bludgeon and Wolf Form can utilize IC: Slash or Pierce.

declaring something else that is WAI a bug because it does not work the way you want it to is handy

natural form is unarmed which is a bludgeoning weapon type the damage type is irrelevant

[ArcaneArcher52689]

I understand where youre coming from as far as the iconic ranged guy being elf, thrown guy being halfling, scimitar weilding drow etc etc. But i personnally cant stand being shoehorned based on a few dnd books from years ago. I have no interest in imagining im legolas or frodo personally.

As far as dex to bow being massive damage thats just not true, strength can be buffed far higher than dex. Going with dex to bonus on bows is a choice for synergy, not max bow dps.

Nerfing multiclass synergy that isnt overpowered is just not neccessary or good for the game.

Personally, I'd have been fine as long as they had added a dex-to damage for bows in one of the ranger trees,


In the real combat arts strength doesn't have much to do with it. Real strength doesn't come from the arms and pecs, which is another illusion our western eyes will see when guys are fighting in shorts with no shirts on. Real strength comes from the core, where the CoG is, and when that is rotated correctly, the arms and legs are merely extensions. The same goes for ground fighting, joint locks, etc. Technique generates far more power then raw strength in orders of magnitude. Where the messed up in D&D is they allowed str to be a to-hit stat. Dex should always be the to-hit stat and str the damage mod stat. A hulking brute with a two handed ax and the RL equivalent of 8 dex would cut his own arm or leg off before hed harm anyone else.

This. though dexterity =/= technique all the time, it's a better indicator than strength.


That nonsense is all myth.

I'd agree with you, but after 10 years of martial arts, and having some 75 year old, 5ft nothing, 120lbs send me flying, when i was 16, 6ft, 200lbs? It's in where they strike and how they strike. 8 years later, and i'm still trying to master that technique.

[Oxarhamar]

Magical Beast Forms

At levels 8 and 11 a druid may use their 'Wild Shape' feat to change into a magical beast.
You are considered a magical beast.
You have a -2 penalty to Intelligence and Charisma.
When in animal form, your equipped weapon attacks are replaced by natural attacks that are specific to the form you are in. These natural attacks benefit from the treasure effects on your equipped melee main hand and offhand weapons (such as the flaming effect).
They also benefit from feats that grant bonuses to Unarmed weapons, such as Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning.

You still gain AC and other bonuses from any shields you may be using. You cannot use wands or scrolls while in animal form.
Animal forms increase the cooldown times of your non-animal form spells to 2.5 times their normal length.
You must prepare your animal form spells as normal and do not receive additional spell preparation slots for them.

Winter Wolf
You attack 30% faster, you gain a +5 bonus to attack while flanking, +2d6 sneak attack damage, and a 15% enhancement bonus to movement speed.
Your natural attacks do 1d10 damage, do both piercing and slashing damage, and critically hit for triple damage on a roll of 19 or 20.
Form specific spells: Takedown, Baiting Bite, Harrowing Pack, Cold Breath, Frostbite, Jaws of Winter, Howl of Terror, Snowslide

Dire Bear
You gain a +4 racial bonus to constitution, and +15% AC.
Your natural attacks do 1d12 damage, do both slashing and bludgeoning damage, and critically hit for triple damage on a roll of 20.
Form specific spells: Maul, Roar, Shred, Rising Fury, Tremor, Relentless Onslaught, Unstoppable

[Failedlegend]

Winter Wolf
You attack 30% faster, you gain a +5 bonus to attack while flanking, +2d6 sneak attack damage, and a 15% enhancement bonus to movement speed.
Your natural attacks do 1d10 damage, do both piercing and slashing damage, and critically hit for triple damage on a roll of 19 or 20.
Form specific spells: Takedown, Baiting Bite, Harrowing Pack, Cold Breath, Frostbite, Jaws of Winter, Howl of Terror, Snowslide

Dire Bear
You gain a +4 racial bonus to constitution, and +15% AC.
Your natural attacks do 1d12 damage, do both slashing and bludgeoning damage, and critically hit for triple damage on a roll of 20.
Form specific spells: Maul, Roar, Shred, Rising Fury, Tremor, Relentless Onslaught, Unstoppable

Thanks for proving my point

[Ashlayna]

Magical Beast Forms

At levels 8 and 11 a druid may use their 'Wild Shape' feat to change into a magical beast.
You are considered a magical beast.
You have a -2 penalty to Intelligence and Charisma.
When in animal form, your equipped weapon attacks are replaced by natural attacks that are specific to the form you are in. These natural attacks benefit from the treasure effects on your equipped melee main hand and offhand weapons (such as the flaming effect).
They also benefit from feats that grant bonuses to Unarmed weapons, such as Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning.

You still gain AC and other bonuses from any shields you may be using. You cannot use wands or scrolls while in animal form.
Animal forms increase the cooldown times of your non-animal form spells to 2.5 times their normal length.
You must prepare your animal form spells as normal and do not receive additional spell preparation slots for them.

Winter Wolf
You attack 30% faster, you gain a +5 bonus to attack while flanking, +2d6 sneak attack damage, and a 15% enhancement bonus to movement speed.
Your natural attacks do 1d10 damage, do both piercing and slashing damage, and critically hit for triple damage on a roll of 19 or 20.
Form specific spells: Takedown, Baiting Bite, Harrowing Pack, Cold Breath, Frostbite, Jaws of Winter, Howl of Terror, Snowslide

Dire Bear
You gain a +4 racial bonus to constitution, and +15% AC.
Your natural attacks do 1d12 damage, do both slashing and bludgeoning damage, and critically hit for triple damage on a roll of 20.
Form specific spells: Maul, Roar, Shred, Rising Fury, Tremor, Relentless Onslaught, Unstoppable


Thanks for proving my point

I salute your cherry picking ability, however, pay particular attention to the part I bolded in the previous quote.

[Failedlegend]

I salute your cherry picking ability, however, pay particular attention to the part I bolded in the previous quote.

Yes this is quoted from the wiki so it says that because thats how it currently works...which is a bug.

[Thrudh]

I can understand the rationale for doing it, though. If you allow monks to convert dex to damage for every weapon they can use, strength becomes a dump-stat for them, which means monks would only ever have to focus on three stats: dex, wis, con. Likely they wanted monks to have to branch out a bit more into other stats (or at least strength) for certain weapons.

Monks are already a very, VERY popular splash class. If 3 levels (or so) could turn your dex to damage? You'd see a LOT more monk splashes; it would almost be a go-to splash for rogues and rangers, so they wouldn't need strength at all. Not to mention if you allow a small investment into monk to turn dex to damage with bows, it makes the elven ability to do so pale in comparison. 24 points or so vs 5-10? Plus the monk levels get me evasion and other goodies? Yeah, no brainer.

Does it jigger with some builds? Sure. But monks shouldn't have EVERY advantage.

This. It was a very legitimate change for game balance. A 3-monk splash (which is pretty awesome anyway with 2 feats and evasion, and plenty of good enhancements) should not allow characters to completely dump STR.. Every rogue and ranger would splash monk (most do anyway).

[Urist]

Where the messed up in D&D is they allowed str to be a to-hit stat. Dex should always be the to-hit stat and str the damage mod stat. A hulking brute with a two handed ax and the RL equivalent of 8 dex would cut his own arm or leg off before hed harm anyone else.
My take on the STR-to-hit is that weapons are, generally speaking, *heavy*. To be able to move one at any dangerous speed, you have to be strong enough to lift it. The stronger you are, the more quickly you can get it to a dangerous speed, and the faster you can make it go in combat.
Okay, so that it means increased damage is fairly obvious, but remember that, traditionally speaking, *dodging is included in AC*. A faster blade is more difficult to dodge, therefore has a better chance to hit a mobile enemy, as well as penetrate an armoured one.

As to the dex (or int) to damage, I see it as more about striking accurately than powerfully (str). A relatively weak hit to the neck can do a lot more damage than even a stronger hit to the torso.

[Failedlegend]

This. It was a very legitimate change for game balance. A 3-monk splash (which is pretty awesome anyway with 2 feats and evasion, and plenty of good enhancements) should not allow characters to completely dump STR.. Every rogue and ranger would splash monk (most do anyway).

Anyone can splash 2 Ranger to do the same thing...or 1 PDK to do the same except for Cha...its normal in PnP it should be normal in DDO.

Actually I think Henshin should get Wisdom for To-hit/damage with Q-Staffs and Shintaos should get Dex or Wis with Handwraps

[Ashlayna]

Yes this is quoted from the wiki the only reason it says that part is because its currently bugged...it SHOULDNT work that way.

Is there something in the known issues that supports this? I didn't notice the last time I read them, but, I wasn't particularly looking for it either.

[Failedlegend]

Is there something in the known issues that supports this? I didn't notice the last time I read them, but, I wasn't particularly looking for it either.

There was a Dev post about it on Lama...feel free to look it up, I'm not wasting hours hunting it down...known issue or not its not working correctly and thus its a bug and I will continue to bug report it as such.

[Daitengu]

it doesn't matter that wolf or bear form deal slashing or piercing damage because, natural attacks are considered bludgeoning hence being effected by IPC bludgeoning.To me it does matter. Why do we need piercing/slashing at all? To ring the poison into the blood system. For doing so it doesnt matter if i used a knife or a claw.

[Failedlegend]

To me it does matter. Why do we need piercing/slashing at all? To ring the poison into the blood system. For doing so it doesnt matter if i used a knife or a claw.

This...Logic dictates that claws will do some sort of piercing or slashing damage thus claiming it as solely bludgeoning damage is wrong

[Charononus]

In the real combat arts strength doesn't have much to do with it. Real strength doesn't come from the arms and pecs, which is another illusion our western eyes will see when guys are fighting in shorts with no shirts on. Real strength comes from the core, where the CoG is, and when that is rotated correctly, the arms and legs are merely extensions. The same goes for ground fighting, joint locks, etc. Technique generates far more power then raw strength in orders of magnitude. Where the messed up in D&D is they allowed str to be a to-hit stat. Dex should always be the to-hit stat and str the damage mod stat. A hulking brute with a two handed ax and the RL equivalent of 8 dex would cut his own arm or leg off before hed harm anyone else.
I agree that dex should be the to hit stat for everything, it makes much more sense. The only thing I'd say about technique is that if you have two people with even skill and technique the advantage will typically go to the stronger fighter. Core strength is important, I knew a woman once that was under five feet tall that was a blackbelt and knew all the joint locks etc. She could turn someone into a rag doll and toss them around. However she took great care of herself and was also very strong compared to average, yeah not a body builder but by no means weak either.

what makes no sense is bow strength!

Unless your not strong enough to draw the bow then strength has nothing to do with the force of an arrow that has to do with the bow itself.



I think in this case they used bow strength to simplify bows. A real bow is going to have a draw strength that you must be so strong to pull, rather than a series of bows with 12/13/14/15 etc etc min str with each bow doing more damage as it moves up the scale, we get bow strength.

[Oxarhamar]

Thanks for proving my point

your point is mute it is not the damage type that sting of the ninja effects it is the weapon type

Sting of the Ninja: Weapon Stance: You poison your weapon with a secret mixture. While you are centered, your piercing and slashing weapons inflict your foes with a stack of Ninja Poison on critical hits. (Cooldown: 3 seconds)

natural fighting is considered bludgeoning for all feats and as a weapon type

[Ashlayna]

There was a Dev post about it on Lama...feel free to look it up, I'm not wasting hours hunting it down...known issue or not its not working correctly and thus its a bug and I will continue to bug report it as such.

Well, in the meantime, I'm going to go with the information given in game, which agrees with what you're claiming is bugged:

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt201/robertthebard/th_ScreenShot00012.jpg (http://s612.photobucket.com/user/robertthebard/media/ScreenShot00012.jpg.html)

Although, it does say Weapon Focus: Unarmed, for some reason my edit didn't edit right.

[Charononus]

Well, in the meantime, I'm going to go with the information given in game, which agrees with what you're claiming is bugged:

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt201/robertthebard/th_ScreenShot00012.jpg (http://s612.photobucket.com/user/robertthebard/media/ScreenShot00012.jpg.html)

Although, it does say Weapon Focus:

wolf and bear form using ic: bludg, is wai. It was coded to be the same as a monks unarmed attack as a way to simplify the coding. That's also why things like reinforced fists, increase your die step. This is from reading dev comments in the motu beta which I don't think can even be accessed anymore to pull dev quotes from.

[Ashlayna]

wolf and bear form using ic: bludg, is wai. It was coded to be the same as a monks unarmed attack as a way to simplify the coding. That's also why things like reinforced fists, increase your die step. This is from reading dev comments in the motu beta which I don't think can even be accessed anymore to pull dev quotes from.

Yeah, I'm thinking it is WAI myself.

[Oxarhamar]

Well, in the meantime, I'm going to go with the information given in game, which agrees with what you're claiming is bugged:

http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt201/robertthebard/th_ScreenShot00012.jpg (http://s612.photobucket.com/user/robertthebard/media/ScreenShot00012.jpg.html)

Although, it does say Weapon Focus: Unarmed, for some reason my edit didn't edit right.

as I said before the natural fighting weapon type for all intents and purposes is unarmed which is a bludgeoning weapon type.

the effects of added slashing or piercing damage don't change the weapon type they really only effect DR

[Ashlayna]

as I said before the natural fighting weapon type for all intents and purposes is unarmed which is a bludgeoning weapon type.

the effects of added slashing or piercing damage don't change the weapon type they really only effect DR

Maybe I should have been clearer in my post, the Wiki and the in game tool tip agree, even if the feat is now different. It went from Bludgeoning to Unarmed, which makes more sense, since animals don't use swords, as a rule.

[Failedlegend]

The reason sting of the ninja needs slashing or piercing is the poison needs to penetrate the skin to enter the bloodstream..claws should work just fine. So should gloves or handwraps with spikes on it

[SisAmethyst]

Magical Beast Forms
...
They also benefit from feats that grant bonuses to Unarmed weapons, such as Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning.
...

Maybe I am reading it wrong but doesn't such as mean for example but not exclusive Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning,
or in other words if the Form also does Piercing weapon it should be affected by Weapon Focus: Piercing?

PS: Anyway, the past has proven that descriptions in-game where never great with accuracy and correctness, so I wouldn't hold my breath if something is WAI or not based on that. If one think it is not, the one should bug report it and eventually it will get changed.

[Ashlayna]

Maybe I am reading it wrong but doesn't such as mean for example but not exclusive Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning,
or in other words if the Form also does Piercing weapon it should be affected by Weapon Focus: Piercing?

Sure, what's an unarmed piercing weapon?

[ArcaneArcher52689]

This. It was a very legitimate change for game balance. A 3-monk splash (which is pretty awesome anyway with 2 feats and evasion, and plenty of good enhancements) should not allow characters to completely dump STR.. Every rogue and ranger would splash monk (most do anyway).

I wouldn't mind this reasoning IF they gave us another reasonable way to achieve dex-to damage w/ bows.

before, you had 2 options:
elf w/ 18 pts spent in racial
OR
splash 3 monk levels, 6 AP, and Zen archery.


I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't be complaining about the bow-issues if they had added an enhancement to the ranger tree for dex-to damage w/ bows.

[Failedlegend]

Sure, what's an unarmed piercing weapon?

Wolf and Bear Claws for example.

[Ashlayna]

Wolf and Bear Claws for example.

Excepting that, as already shown, they count as unarmed attacks, and unarmed attacks are considered bludgeoning?

Edit to add: http://ddowiki.com/page/Weapon_Focus:_Bludgeoning

[Oxarhamar]

Excepting that, as already shown, they count as unarmed attacks, and unarmed attacks are considered bludgeoning?

this

it is not the damage that adds poison it is the weapon type

[Ashlayna]

I'm going to take this one step further, I have the Silver Slinger, and the Bow of the Silver Flame. Both fire blunted ammunition. Does this mean I need to change my weapon focus, since the damage type is varied from normal? As somebody already pointed out here, despite normal arrows doing Piercing damage, the feat for bows is Ranged, not Piercing.

[Failedlegend]

Excepting that, as already shown, they count as unarmed attacks, and unarmed attacks are considered bludgeoning?

Edit to add: http://ddowiki.com/page/Weapon_Focus:_Bludgeoning


this

it is not the damage that adds poison it is the weapon type

Yes that IS how it currently works...that doesnt make it correct.


I'm going to take this one step further, I have the Silver Slinger, and the Bow of the Silver Flame. Both fire blunted ammunition. Does this mean I need to change my weapon focus, since the damage type is varied from normal? As somebody already pointed out here, despite normal arrows doing Piercing damage, the feat for bows is Ranged, not Piercing.


No because Ranged weapons are treated differently now I don't actually agree with that both IC: Bludgeoning and IC: Piercing should affect those weapons IMO.

[Chai]

This. It was a very legitimate change for game balance. A 3-monk splash (which is pretty awesome anyway with 2 feats and evasion, and plenty of good enhancements) should not allow characters to completely dump STR.. Every rogue and ranger would splash monk (most do anyway).

A 3 rogue splash allows people to completely dump strength.

A 2 ranger splash allows people to completely dump strength.

Being an elf allows people to completely dump strength.

As far as monks are concerned, sounds like Turbine WANTS people to be monks, as it was already a hugely favored splash for archers, and now people can be centered and use just about any weapon with kensai and monk levels.

The issue I have is that they wont just settle on specific mechanics and leave it alone. Each time one of these changes occurs people have to pay to LR out of it due to their nerf. The enhancement pass is great and all, but at thios point, we're sicjk of LRing and doing feat swaps every other week due to some tweak or other. Just finish it off and leave it be.

[Chai]

My take on the STR-to-hit is that weapons are, generally speaking, *heavy*. To be able to move one at any dangerous speed, you have to be strong enough to lift it. The stronger you are, the more quickly you can get it to a dangerous speed, and the faster you can make it go in combat.

My old instructer at 79 used to practice with a guan dao (which is basically a chinese pole ax) that was 3x the weight and he had that thing twirling like a large baton for most of the session. Using the weapon is far more technique than it is strength. Keeping it close to your body and allowing waist rotation to do 90% of the work is the way to use large weapons, not through arm strength or brute force (youll mess up your back eventually using a large weapon incorrectly, just like you would if you lifed with your back instead of your legs)


Okay, so that it means increased damage is fairly obvious, but remember that, traditionally speaking, *dodging is included in AC*. A faster blade is more difficult to dodge, therefore has a better chance to hit a mobile enemy, as well as penetrate an armoured one.

Strength isnt providing the speed however, technique is. The spinning rotation of the waist causes the arm to lash out like a whip, holding a dagger, is far more lethal than some of the crude stabbing motions you see in hollywood movies for instance.


As to the dex (or int) to damage, I see it as more about striking accurately than powerfully (str). A relatively weak hit to the neck can do a lot more damage than even a stronger hit to the torso.

Yes, this is how a 110 pound people in china learned how to be quite lethal with two handed swords and spears back in the day. With Japanese Katana, the sharpness of the blade is doing most of the work. The art itself is more about patience and technique rather than raw upper body power.

[Charononus]

My old instructer at 79 used to practice with a guan dao (which is basically a chinese pole ax) that was 3x the weight and he had that thing twirling like a large baton for most of the session. Using the weapon is far more technique than it is strength. Keeping it close to your body and allowing waist rotation to do 90% of the work is the way to use large weapons, not through arm strength or brute force (youll mess up your back eventually using a large weapon incorrectly, just like you would if you lifed with your back instead of your legs)



Strength isnt providing the speed however, technique is. The spinning rotation of the waist causes the arm to lash out like a whip, holding a dagger, is far more lethal than some of the crude stabbing motions you see in hollywood movies for instance.



Yes, this is how a 110 pound people in china learned how to be quite lethal with two handed swords and spears back in the day. With Japanese Katana, the sharpness of the blade is doing most of the work. The art itself is more about patience and technique rather than raw upper body power.

Wouldn't you say that those people that use things like the guan dao like that have built up quite strong cores from constant practice? Put that same instructor on bed rest and a fluid diet for two weeks and he will be weak enough to have problems using it from atrophy at the same level he once did.

[Chai]

Wouldn't you say that those people that use things like the guan dao like that have built up quite strong cores from constant practice? Put that same instructor on bed rest and a fluid diet for two weeks and he will be weak enough to have problems using it from atrophy at the same level he once did.

Youre talking about weakening the entire body through malnutrition, which is not the same as one person being able to bench 450lbs and another being able to bench 150lbs, but being the better fighter due to having better technique - especially when bringing an equalizer device into the equation, like weaponry.

Atrophy is not the same as one guy being 6'8 and 260 lbs and another guy being 5'8 and 180 lbs - both healthy and at full strength.

[Failedlegend]

Wouldn't you say that those people that use things like the guan dao like that have built up quite strong cores from constant practice? Put that same instructor on bed rest and a fluid diet for two weeks and he will be weak enough to have problems using it from atrophy at the same level he once did.

Were not arguing that a weakling can fight just fine were arguing that finesse is a legitimate means for fighting

[Charononus]

Youre talking about weakening the entire body through malnutrition, which is not the same as one person being able to bench 450lbs and another being able to bench 150lbs, but being the better fighter due to having better technique.

It's just the fastest way to -str that I could think of in real life that can happen to a person at random from disease and injury. Excluding barbarians from this conversation that have the conan image which is a body builder image, I see fighters, paladins, etc to be built more like professional athletes, they're not walking slabs of muscle just in their arms, they're strong and fit all over. I don't see the str mod as just arm strength but a measure of arm, core, leg, etc.

[EllisDee37]

Sure, what's an unarmed piercing weapon?Scorching Wraps (http://ddowiki.com/page/Scorching_Wraps)?

[Chai]

It's just the fastest way to -str that I could think of in real life that can happen to a person at random from disease and injury. Excluding barbarians from this conversation that have the conan image which is a body builder image, I see fighters, paladins, etc to be built more like professional athletes, they're not walking slabs of muscle just in their arms, they're strong and fit all over. I don't see the str mod as just arm strength but a measure of arm, core, leg, etc.

Thats not being discussed either. If you took arnold and did the same thing, subjected him to atrophy, hed have an equally hard time.

What I am talking about is more akin to MMA before the weight classes got introduced, and gracie, weighing 180 lbs or so, dominating guys that weighed 100 more pounds than he did with all of it being muscle mass. Power lifters and body builders were getting into the octagon with this dude and getting twisted up by someone with far less sheer physicality than they had, strictly due to technique.

The way we build str based DPS toons in this game usually dumps dex, and the equivilent str based dump dex person in real life would cut themselves down before harming anyone else.

[Charononus]

Thats not being discussed either. If you took arnold and did the same thing, subjected him to atrophy, hed have an equally hard time.


I'm not making my point with it. Of course Arnold would have the same problems subjected to atrophy, the point is that str matters, dex to hit, and str to damage period would be the best way to reflect this.

[Failedlegend]

I'm not making my point with it. Of course Arnold would have the same problems subjected to atrophy, the point is that str matters, dex to hit, and str to damage period would be the best way to reflect this.

For most people yes but certain fighting styles focus far more on finesse than brute force. So having alternative attack/damages is totally legitimate. Henshin for example use their internal energies so Wisdom would make sense for attack & damage for Q-Staffs...same goes for Shintaos for Unarmed.

It doesn't really matter anyways both PnP and DDO is full with alternative stats to do various things especially attack/damage...check out my thread about it

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422979-Post-U19-X-Ability-to-Y-Stat

The thing is your wrong...theres not question or opinion its fact...your just wrong. Strength isn't the only way to be a good fighter.

Oh and Crono do me a favor and lose a few of those quotes in your sig...it takes up WAY too much space.

[Gremmlynn]

Thanks for proving my pointThe only point proven is that some don't understand how the game mechanics work. All unarmed attacks benefit from IC: Unarmed. IC: Unarmed, can only be had as a sub-feat of IC: Bludgeon. Hence, all unarmed attacks fall into the category of bludgeoning attacks, regardless of what type of damage they do as that is what the attack forms "normal damage type" is.

[Chai]

I'm not making my point with it. Of course Arnold would have the same problems subjected to atrophy, the point is that str matters, dex to hit, and str to damage period would be the best way to reflect this.

Right, which is what most RPGs use.

[Failedlegend]

The only point proven is that some don't understand how the game mechanics work. All unarmed attacks benefit from IC: Unarmed. IC: Unarmed, can only be had as a sub-feat of IC: Bludgeon. Hence, all unarmed attacks fall into the category of bludgeoning attacks, regardless of what type of damage they do as that is what the attack forms "normal damage type" is.

Its only that way because the devs coded it the easiest way not because its the way it should be...it didn't matter much when it was first done but now it actually matters so now its a bug that needs to be addressed

[Charononus]

For most people yes but certain fighting styles focus far more on finesse than brute force. So having alternative attack/damages is totally legitimate. Henshin for example use their internal energies so Wisdom would make sense for attack & damage for Q-Staffs...same goes for Shintaos for Unarmed.

It doesn't really matter anyways both PnP and DDO is full with alternative stats to do various things especially attack/damage...check out my thread about it

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422979-Post-U19-X-Ability-to-Y-Stat

The thing is your wrong...theres not question or opinion its fact...your just wrong. Strength isn't the only way to be a good fighter.

Oh and Crono do me a favor and lose a few of those quotes in your sig...it takes up WAY too much space.

Wisdom, being wise, being intuitive, having good perception may help someone see vulnerability in a foe, but their body still needs to be conditioned to take advantage of it. Like I said near the begining of this discussion, this is mostly an academic type discussion, I know that there are rules in dnd about using other stats, however my argument is that there shouldn't be.

[Bridge_Dweller]

As far as monks are concerned, sounds like Turbine WANTS people to be monks, as it was already a hugely favored splash for archers, and now people can be centered and use just about any weapon with kensai and monk levels.


There are going to have to be monk-nerfs or major buffs to non-monks in the future for things to even out. Centered in any weapon and full monk stances are wonderfully OP with no negatives.

[Failedlegend]

Well Crono than you should go play a different game where versatile is a bad word, here we like things to be flexible.

[Bridge_Dweller]

Thats not being discussed either. If you took arnold and did the same thing, subjected him to atrophy, hed have an equally hard time.

What I am talking about is more akin to MMA before the weight classes got introduced, and gracie, weighing 180 lbs or so, dominating guys that weighed 100 more pounds than he did with all of it being muscle mass. Power lifters and body builders were getting into the octagon with this dude and getting twisted up by someone with far less sheer physicality than they had, strictly due to technique.

The way we build str based DPS toons in this game usually dumps dex, and the equivilent str based dump dex person in real life would cut themselves down before harming anyone else.

The guys Gracies was beating weren't real fighters. Never accuse a "martial artist" of knowing how to fight.

You will not see this happening in modern MMA with weight-classes and all actually knowing how to fight.

[Charononus]

Well Crono than you should go play a different game where versatile is a bad word, here we like things to be flexible.

Dnd was originally written as a way of adding magic into a medival wargame. Using different stats as to hit and damage has reduced the realism factor in the various versions as time has gone on, and has been a mistake the makers of dnd have made.

[Gremmlynn]

Thats not being discussed either. If you took arnold and did the same thing, subjected him to atrophy, hed have an equally hard time.

What I am talking about is more akin to MMA before the weight classes got introduced, and gracie, weighing 180 lbs or so, dominating guys that weighed 100 more pounds than he did with all of it being muscle mass. Power lifters and body builders were getting into the octagon with this dude and getting twisted up by someone with far less sheer physicality than they had, strictly due to technique.

The way we build str based DPS toons in this game usually dumps dex, and the equivilent str based dump dex person in real life would cut themselves down before harming anyone else.Neither strength nor dex holds a candle to training and practice. I would hope a trained fighter could beat an untrained body builder at fighting.

So, no. With proper training and practice, a low dex person could likely be quite lethal.

[ericrd]

The guys Gracies was beating weren't real fighters. Never accuse a "martial artist" of knowing how to fight.

You will not see this happening in modern MMA with weight-classes and all actually knowing how to fight.

the guys gracie were fighting were "real" fighters they didnt know how to deal with a ground game.....because of gracies dominence modern mma fighters are trained in the ground game

[Charononus]

Neither strength nor dex holds a candle to training and practice. I would hope a trained fighter could beat an untrained body builder at fighting.

So, no. With proper training and practice, a low dex person could likely be quite lethal.

With proper training a person builds dex and str.

[Failedlegend]

Dnd was originally written as a way of adding magic into a medival wargame. Using different stats as to hit and damage has reduced the realism factor in the various versions as time has gone on, and has been a mistake the makers of dnd have made.

Except your wrong limiting atk/damage to strength makes it less realistic.

[Charononus]

Except your wrong limiting atk/damage to strength makes it less realistic.

not asking for str to be to hit, dex to hit and str to damage, that forms a realistic picture as str is not just a measure of upper arm str or they would give female toons a -2 like a halfling because in general males have more upper body strength and women need to work much harder to hit the same upper body strength.

[Gremmlynn]

Its only that way because the devs coded it the easiest way not because its the way it should be...it didn't matter much when it was first done but now it actually matters so now its a bug that needs to be addressedIt's only bug in that it bugs you. Regardless of why it's coded like it is or how much it matters. If it's working the way it was designed and intended to work, it's not a bug.

[Failedlegend]

It's only bug in that it bugs you. Regardless of why it's coded like it is or how much it matters. If it's working the way it was designed and intended to work, it's not a bug.

but its not WAI it was just the easiest way to code it at the time and didnt really negative affect anything at the time so no one cared...NOW it matters thus needs to be fixed.

[Charononus]

but its not WAI it was just the easiest way to code it at the time and didnt really negative affect anything at the time so no one cared...NOW it matters thus needs to be fixed.

If it was planned designed and built around the easiest option it's still wai. Wai means working as intended. You can argue that it's not a good design but not that it's a bug.

[Gremmlynn]

Except your wrong limiting atk/damage to strength makes it less realistic.So does having fireball spells work. What does realism have to do with it? It's a game, not a simulation.

[Hoglum]

Now that we can use any stat we want for damage we only have justify why.

The dashing young Purple Knight leveled his deadly gaze upon the young damsel. With his broad shoulders, elongated torso, and stubby legs, the charismatic young warrior’s looks were damaging to his foes.

[Charononus]

So does having fireball spells work. What does realism have to do with it? It's a game, not a simulation.

Good modern video games have rules set up to make them almost a simulation of combat.

[Gremmlynn]

but its not WAI it was just the easiest way to code it at the time and didnt really negative affect anything at the time so no one cared...NOW it matters thus needs to be fixed.It's working exactly as it was designed to work, which is the definition of WAI. If one jumps off a tall building and splats exactly where they intended to land, that's working as intended, no matter how foolish or poor the intention.

[Ashlayna]

Scorching Wraps (http://ddowiki.com/page/Scorching_Wraps)?

Did you bother to read this link?


Weapon Type: Handwrap / Bludgeoning Weapons

4th line down in the description...

[Gremmlynn]

Good modern video games have rules set up to make them almost a simulation of combat.Um, yeah, sure. It's more likely that your perception of realistic combat is based on how video games are.

[Bridge_Dweller]

the guys gracie were fighting were "real" fighters they didnt know how to deal with a ground game.....


In other words they didn't know how to fight.

[Failedlegend]

So does having fireball spells work. What does realism have to do with it? It's a game, not a simulation.

Oh to clarify I don't think DnD should be to concerned with realism but Crono is insisting on doing so, so I was countering his realism.

[Gremmlynn]

With proper training a person builds dex and str.That's like saying studying hard builds paper cuts, so all paper cuts improve one's grades.

[Enoach]

What are you trying to say? You want age to damage?

lol, this reminds me of my return to PnP where I put my character together to take advantage of the "Age" rule to have a higher wisdom/intelligence with a small hit to strength and dexterity. Allowed me to pack more spells and have a higher DC than normal. Which worked out well for a Mystic Therouge.


On the debate of the Natural Attacks using bludgeon feats and not piercing/slashing.

For me I equated Claws the same as a Spiked Club - The weapon itself is considered a Bludgeon weapon as it swings no differently than a club. The difference being that the Spikes give it additional piercing damage.

[Charononus]

That's like saying studying hard builds paper cuts, so all paper cuts improve one's grades.

No it's like saying studying hard builds knowledge and thus perhaps int, the basis that wizards are built around.

[Lorianna]

Anyone can splash 2 Ranger to do the same thing...or 1 PDK to do the same except for Cha...its normal in PnP it should be normal in DDO.

How are you getting dex-to-damage with 2 levels of ranger? The second tempest core ability gives you dex-to-hit with light weapons, and the ability to consider scimitars a light weapon. The third core ability gives you dex-to-damage with light weapons, but that requires you to be dual wielding (though if you're going heavy into tempest you likely are anyway) and take 6 levels of ranger, not 2.


Actually I think Henshin should get Wisdom for To-hit/damage with Q-Staffs and Shintaos should get Dex or Wis with Handwraps

That sounds reasonable to me.

[EllisDee37]

How are you getting dex-to-damage with 2 levels of ranger? The second tempest core ability gives you dex-to-hit with light weapons, and the ability to consider scimitars a light weapon. The third core ability gives you dex-to-damage with light weapons, but that requires you to be dual wielding (though if you're going heavy into tempest you likely are anyway) and take 6 levels of ranger, not 2.Tier 2 Deepwood Stalker:

Improved Weapon Finesse: You can use your Dexterity modifier for damage when wielding melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. BUG: Does not work with Handwraps.

[Lorianna]

A 3 rogue splash allows people to completely dump strength.

...with a single weapon, not "all slashing and piercing weapons."


A 2 ranger splash allows people to completely dump strength.

How so? It takes 6 levels of ranger to get the third core ability in tempest that lets you use dex for damage.


Being an elf allows people to completely dump strength.

And takes 20 points, which is a fairly large investment, and a specific race.


As far as monks are concerned, sounds like Turbine WANTS people to be monks, as it was already a hugely favored splash for archers, and now people can be centered and use just about any weapon with kensai and monk levels.

The issue I have is that they wont just settle on specific mechanics and leave it alone. Each time one of these changes occurs people have to pay to LR out of it due to their nerf. The enhancement pass is great and all, but at thios point, we're sicjk of LRing and doing feat swaps every other week due to some tweak or other. Just finish it off and leave it be.

As I said, I can understand their reasoning for changing it. Monks are already a very powerful, flexible class. Toning down some of that flexibility for things that fall slightly outside their natural aptitude (melee damage) seems logical to me, to try and bump up other classes/races.

Not every single archer build should be built around taking monk levels without being "gimped."

[Chai]

How are you getting dex-to-damage with 2 levels of ranger? The second tempest core ability gives you dex-to-hit with light weapons, and the ability to consider scimitars a light weapon. The third core ability gives you dex-to-damage with light weapons, but that requires you to be dual wielding (though if you're going heavy into tempest you likely are anyway) and take 6 levels of ranger, not 2.

Deepwood Stalker. Improved weapon finesse.

[Lorianna]

Tier 2 Deepwood Stalker:

Improved Weapon Finesse: You can use your Dexterity modifier for damage when wielding melee weapons with which you can use your Dexterity modifier to hit. BUG: Does not work with Handwraps.

Ah. I'd overlooked that one. Of course, it's limited to a small group of weapons, rather than "all slashing/piercing".

I think that's the breakdown, imo; the monk ability was VASTLY more flexible than anything else, which were built around small, specific groups of weapons. The monk allowed two thirds (or more) of the weapons in the game to bypass strength, and didn't require a feat or heavy investment.

That doesn't seem a bit much?

[Chai]

.How so? It takes 6 levels of ranger to get the third core ability in tempest that lets you use dex for damage.

Deepwood Stalker - 2 levels.




.And takes 20 points, which is a fairly large investment, and a specific race.

Mostly stuff youd take anyhow. Damage additions with that same set of weapons, points of dex, racial core, etc.




As I said, I can understand their reasoning for changing it. Monks are already a very powerful, flexible class. Toning down some of that flexibility for things that fall slightly outside their natural aptitude (melee damage) seems logical to me, to try and bump up other classes/races.

Not every single archer build should be built around taking monk levels without being "gimped."

Seems like Turbine wants everyone using melee or bows to be 6-12 levels of monk. When we all provided the feedback that having the best archers in the game be 6 levels of monk minumum was a bad design move, how did they respond to that? By making it so any non alignment restricted melee also wants 6 -12 monk levels, as they can now use most in game weapons centered under the right circumstances, and those are the most powerful circumstances.

[IronClan]

Its funny you should say that, because glaring exploits in character design mechanics has cost Turbine way more customers than any supposed "nerfing." You seem quite obsessed with finding those exploits. I would say your entire DDO career is centered around making fewer people want to play this game.

Wow what an elaborate narrative. So let me get this straight: More people leave because of nerfs that DON'T get done than ones that do, and being creative with builds is "exploiting". So apparently using Turbine pre-made paths is "doing it right"? Look if you're not creative, or are uninterested in "seeing what you can build" and just want to roll with a pure class and have fun playing, then go for it (though I can recommend a few MMO's that have rock paper scissors (these days called Trinty) class balance you might be happier playing), but please:

Just because you always make the thing pictured on the LEGO box, does not mean the kid who always used the same parts to make something more interesting to him, is somehow WRONG or EXPLOITING the LEGO's.

If you insist on this notion that non-nerfs lose more players than nerfs do you'll need to provide data that supports your claim. Unless you have data to share I'm afraid all your assertion is; is a hopelessly counter intuitive hypothetical statement with an improbably backward cause and effect relationship.

[Chai]

Neither strength nor dex holds a candle to training and practice. I would hope a trained fighter could beat an untrained body builder at fighting.

So, no. With proper training and practice, a low dex person could likely be quite lethal.

A below average dex person would be quite lethal.

To themselves.

These full ****** all str no dex builds do not have a viable RL equivilent.

This practice you talk about, would be like leveling up, and putting all points into DEX while doing so.

[Lorianna]

Deepwood Stalker - 2 levels.

True, but still doesn't give you dex to damage with bows, and is limited to a small subset of weapons, which doesn't include all the ones people really like using, such as khopesh. That requires a much higher investment.


Mostly stuff youd take anyhow. Damage additions with that same set of weapons, points of dex, racial core, etc.

If you're not going for an archer build, I'd think using those 15ish points (the ones you don't spend on the couple points of dex and to-hit) could be better spent elsewhere, in other trees. Depends on the build though.


Seems like Turbine wants everyone using melee or bows to be 6-12 levels of monk. When we all provided the feedback that having the best archers in the game be 6 levels of monk minumum was a bad design move, how did they respond to that? By making it so any non alignment restricted melee also wants 6 -12 monk levels, as they can now use most in game weapons centered under the right circumstances, and those are the most powerful circumstances.

It's a specific build, really, and requires a very large investment in points, as well as a few feats (since we seem to be discussing the kensai One With the Blade ability, yes?). As I said, I think the reason they changed it was because the Adv Ninja Training ability was just TOO flexible. It required a minimal investment of points, no feats, and gave you more of a bonus that any other ability that costs a lot more points, feats, etc did.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the change. It makes sense to me.

[Charononus]

A below average dex person would be quite lethal.

To themselves.

These full ****** all str no dex builds do not have a viable RL equivilent.

This practice you talk about, would be like leveling up, and putting all points into DEX while doing so.

I'm a real life 6 dex, I'm a danger to everyone in the room with me, including myself. =P

[Chai]

True, but still doesn't give you dex to damage with bows, and is limited to a small subset of weapons, which doesn't include all the ones people really like using, such as khopesh. That requires a much higher investment.

Rapier - one of the best raid weapons in the game.


If you're not going for an archer build, I'd think using those 15ish points (the ones you don't spend on the couple points of dex and to-hit) could be better spent elsewhere, in other trees. Depends on the build though.

This is true for every single build decision in the game. They are all situational.


It's a specific build, really,

Nope. Monk is part of most builds that are not alignment restricted. Dex to damage is popular nowdays because of the high synergy with to-hit and reflex save.


and requires a very large investment in points, as well as a few feats (since we seem to be discussing the kensai One With the Blade ability, yes?).

Yes and its more powerful while being very well rounded than most other melee builds.


As I said, I think the reason they changed it was because the Adv Ninja Training ability was just TOO flexible. It required a minimal investment of points, no feats, and gave you more of a bonus that any other ability that costs a lot more points, feats, etc did

Rogue 3 and ranger 2. Same flexability.


Personally, I see nothing wrong with the change. It makes sense to me.

Its wrong because Turbine keeps flip flopping on its build decision mechanics causing people to LR all the time. Just make the decision and stick with it, and let people build on it.

[Munkenmo]

A below average dex person would be quite lethal.

To themselves.

These full ****** all str no dex builds do not have a viable RL equivilent.

This practice you talk about, would be like leveling up, and putting all points into DEX while doing so.

Take it you've never watched a mr universe show? There seem to be a lot of them year after year, must be pretty viable somehow.

[IronClan]

A below average dex person would be quite lethal.

To themselves.

These full ****** all str no dex builds do not have a viable RL equivilent.


SO you would bet on Arnold Schwarzenegger in a sword fight with an Olympic fencing champion? Body builder is a great real life analog. All muscle and strength... Hell even better; google "power lifter" and "worlds strongest man competition" really huge beefy (even fat) guys with insane muscle mass... I would bet any of those guys would have a lot of holes in them at the end of that fight, and would be extremely tired of swinging a 16 pound length of high carbon steel hand and a half sword... Stamina and Dex are clearly more important than STR in hitting something.

Strength requires different muscles and training than control, explosion and endurance. White, and dark muscle fiber versus red muscle fiber. In fact explosive muscles (dark fiber) are more akin to control and endurance muscles. A fencer for example or a Samurai they wanted lighting fast explosive movements and endurance to keep doing them. Speed and explosive accuracy NOT raw strength.

A below average Dex person I agree with you on... They are going to hurt themselves more than someone else.

Look at Samurai, they considered the best victory to be a lethal slash right out of the scabbard. They were not heavy men, nor muscle bound... They were dexers :)

Anyway this is an argument as old as D&D. Strength should never have been the sole determiner of melee to hit and damage and many role playing systems correctly made Dex or "agility" the ability that determines accuracy with ANYTHING. STR should only ever have been the Damage ability for heavy weapons, weapon and shield, and two handers. Damage should also have been tied to your to hit roll as in how accurately you hit a vulnerable area being as or more important that how hard the swing was* (as critical hits correctly where). But that ship has sailed.

*In role playing heavy low magic AD&D groups I often ran with a house rule that your damage dealt was the amount you surpass the monsters to hit by (I discarded THAC0 half way through reading it's description the first time). So if you needed an 11 to hit the monster and rolled a 19 your base damage was 8 + bonuses and affixes if any (we're talking about campaigns where a +5 sword was amazing) this was doubled for Two handers. This was before official critical hits rules, and we also didn't use crit ranges, 20 was a crit no confirm roll, damage was doubled. Made combat nice and fast paced because it eliminated a bunch of unnecessary die rolls.

[Lorianna]

Rapier - one of the best raid weapons in the game.

So rapier's the new khopesh? :)


Rogue 3 and ranger 2. Same flexability.

What is rogue-3 getting you, as far as dex to damage? With quarterstaves? That's the only thing I know of. And I don't think "melee weapons that can be used with weapon finesse" is quite as flexible as "all slashing/piercing". Not by a long shot. Not to mention it's 5 levels and two classes, vs 3 levels of a single class.

Perhaps we just define "flexibility" differently though. :)


Its wrong because Turbine keeps flip flopping on its build decision mechanics causing people to LR all the time. Just make the decision and stick with it, and let people build on it.

Well, constantly changing things is kind of the halmark of most mmo's. It does get annoying, to be sure, but eh, it's the nature of the beast.

[Oxarhamar]

Yes that IS how it currently works...that doesnt make it correct..



that's is how it currently works, that is how it is intended to work, that is WAI.

[Gremmlynn]

A below average dex person would be quite lethal.

To themselves.

These full ****** all str no dex builds do not have a viable RL equivilent.

This practice you talk about, would be like leveling up, and putting all points into DEX while doing so.No, it would be swinging overweight blunted practice weapons to keep from killing themselves while they gain the necessary proficiency and would not mean they'd stop tripping over their own feet when they try to dance. Muscle memory is pretty specific.

[Gremmlynn]

Wow what an elaborate narrative. So let me get this straight: More people leave because of nerfs that DON'T get done than ones that do, and being creative with builds is "exploiting". So apparently using Turbine pre-made paths is "doing it right"? Look if you're not creative, or are uninterested in "seeing what you can build" and just want to roll with a pure class and have fun playing, then go for it (though I can recommend a few MMO's that have rock paper scissors (these days called Trinty) class balance you might be happier playing), but please:So Turbine should stop making it harder than falling off a log to be creative?

[Charononus]

No, it would be swinging overweight blunted practice weapons to keep from killing themselves while they gain the necessary proficiency and would not mean they'd stop tripping over their own feet when they try to dance. Muscle memory is pretty specific.

I don't know man, I'm probably the least dextrous person you'll ever hear from (clumsy). I've literally kicked myself in the balls getting out of bed. I really doubt that any amount of training would improve someone like me.

[Forzah]

Wow what an elaborate narrative. So let me get this straight: More people leave because of nerfs that DON'T get done than ones that do, and being creative with builds is "exploiting". So apparently using Turbine pre-made paths is "doing it right"? Look if you're not creative, or are uninterested in "seeing what you can build" and just want to roll with a pure class and have fun playing, then go for it (though I can recommend a few MMO's that have rock paper scissors (these days called Trinty) class balance you might be happier playing), but please:

Just because you always make the thing pictured on the LEGO box, does not mean the kid who always used the same parts to make something more interesting to him, is somehow WRONG or EXPLOITING the LEGO's.

If you insist on this notion that non-nerfs lose more players than nerfs do you'll need to provide data that supports your claim. Unless you have data to share I'm afraid all your assertion is; is a hopelessly counter intuitive hypothetical statement with an improbably backward cause and effect relationship.

I can imagine that people leave because they think there is a balance problem in this game. It's an important reason for new players to leave. They join a group but get blown away by casters and TRs. That demotivates them and they decide to leave right away. While there are no numbers available, it's credible that the amount of new players that left for this reason is higher than the amount of long time players leaving because of nerfs. After all, the largest share of leaving people consists of the ones that try out the game for a few days and then decide it's not the game for them.

[psykopeta]

So rapier's the new khopesh? :)



What is rogue-3 getting you, as far as dex to damage? With quarterstaves? That's the only thing I know of. And I don't think "melee weapons that can be used with weapon finesse" is quite as flexible as "all slashing/piercing". Not by a long shot. Not to mention it's 5 levels and two classes, vs 3 levels of a single class.

Perhaps we just define "flexibility" differently though. :)



Well, constantly changing things is kind of the halmark of most mmo's. It does get annoying, to be sure, but eh, it's the nature of the beast.

everytime u post, fuel price rises

rapier were, and are, the best 1 handed weapon that doesn't recquire feat( the example is that is threated as light weapon)

assassin 2nd core, not hard when someone says "3 rogue lvls" to check 2 cores of each pre, not hard i think

and what monks had "all slashing and piercing weapons" was plain dumb, affecting a weapon by damage type (what is objective, like the stat used to hit/damage that some named have, it's not pnp so i simply won't accept a staff that deals piercing weapon because it's so awful designed that needs IC to work) so they must work by weapon group/type

nerf to monks? really? it's sad to see that wow's pally crying dumbness started again

[Soulfurnace]

I've literally kicked myself in the balls getting out of bed.
How the hell'd ya manage that one?

[Gremmlynn]

I don't know man, I'm probably the least dextrous person you'll ever hear from (clumsy). I've literally kicked myself in the balls getting out of bed. I really doubt that any amount of training would improve someone like me.Do you generally hit yourself in the head swinging a baseball bat? If so you would probably be one of those people with 5 or less to a stat that the game doesn't even consider as worthy to be an adventurer. Else I doubt a few 10's of thousands of practice swings wouldn't make you better.

[Karavek]

Personally I am very frustrated by Turbines fli flopping as well, Ive seen it negatively effect several players desire to continue with the game of late. And the fact they felt the need to alter ninja spy before fixxing the drow tree really has me ****ed.

Now on to the debate.

While I have personally seen an elderly woman, in her 60s, who was the grandaughter of the judo/jujitsu dojo founder take on and defeat the 5 much younger adults who taught the students regularly with ease, I wont at all deny strength and youthful agility are powerful assets in a fight.

Historically the best warriors are mixtures of stats that hearken back to 2nd ed and the days when classes had stat reqs to meet. For example a man like El Cid, clearly was possessed of great physical as well as mental ability. A strong, and quick sword arm, a keen mind that learned the art and learned it well, and the wisdom to put it to proper use, along with strong tactical understanding, and a charsimatic disposition that would have former rivals seek him out to become an ally.

Or Musashi Miyomoto, the most legendary of japan's swordsmen, the one and only true real world kensai as he is pretty much the source of that classes entire design concept.

This man was well known to be large and powerful by typical japanese male standards. Ive read he was likely well over 6 feet tall, virtually a giant among them in an era where the typical height was closer to 5 and a half feet tall. He was also considered ugly, and some things I have read suggest in his youth many thought him slow witted.

However by the time he was 14, he had already won his first duel. And would go on to have many that where documented after being witnessed. Most fought and won using only a simple wooden practice sword against men carrying katana, the sword even one of britains masters of arms has gone on record stating it may be perhaps the most perfect tool for killing a man in melee ever designed. Yet a man using speed, strength, and an understanding of the tactics and flaws of traditional sword play would go on to defeat many other well trained men.

In the end the real issue with DDo is the inability to stack these stat mods. In PnP several PRC and feats exist not to give stats to over write another but add with. Likewise several skills are commonly house ruled in my experience to give smart fighters more advantages, like the anatomy skill working much like our seeker bonus works in DDO for example is one I have seen used around many a table top to various degrees.

If anything I feel the sudden rise in dex users is not even many who where formerly strength users. many of us have been playing dex fighters on DDO since launch suffering the inequality that we had to with strength specs. Now we have a chance to rise and shine, and those who always hated us still do. They want their triple digit ****** barbs to remain king melee dps at any costs.

[Charononus]

How the hell'd ya manage that one?
Startled awake by the baby crying in the next room, foot was twirled into the sheets, the rest is a blur of tripping falling and pain.

Do you generally hit yourself in the head swinging a baseball bat? If so you would probably be one of those people with 5 or less to a stat that the game doesn't even consider as worthy to be an adventurer. Else I doubt a few 10's of thousands of practice swings wouldn't make you better.

Have but not every time.

In general though I'm clumsy enough to be a menace to myself and anyone in the same room as me.

[Soulfurnace]

Startled awake by the baby crying in the next room, foot was twirled into the sheets, the rest is a blur of tripping falling and pain.
...I saw it happening differently..

Anyway, got any other interesting stories I can file away for later use?

[Charononus]

...I saw it happening differently..

Anyway, got any other interesting stories I can file away for later use?

heh not that I can think of at the moment but it's early, I may think of something later once I'm awake. =P

[Soulfurnace]

heh not that I can think of at the moment but it's early, I may think of something later once I'm awake. =P
Go drink a gallon of coffee, then reply back in two hours.

I'll be here. (Or busy yelling at a pug, abusing legend lives for dying in druid's curse - again.)

[shores11]

Ive played this game a long time, there have been a lot of unreasonable nerfs in this game. Oftentimes the nerfs appear to have been side effects of turbine not wanting to fix game mechanics to work as intended, this is getting worse recently.

It is lazy and irresponsible and it hurts the game, many of my friends have left after ridiculous nerfs and I could go on for hours detailing them.

Take the effort to do things right or you will lose more customers, its that simple.


Edited due to some bad info.

I have played this game a long time, there have been a lot of unreasonable complaints by players in this game. Often times players uninformative remarks tend to point blame at Turbine when they really do not know to what they are really speaking of, and they launch insults at Turbine like lazy, poor designers, irresponsible, etc...

Then they cap it off by saying that many players have left the game because of there view points of Turbine's failures and unless they get take the effort to get it right many more will leave the game, it's that simple.

While I will agree Turbine could have made a few different decisions that may please some players or even make the game perform better they have certainly put great effort and money into DDO this can not be disputed. So to call them lazy and irresponsible is lazy and irresponsible from the players that make these claims without being better able to get their points across without being so incendiary or insulting. In other words these types of players just lack the ability to be civilized with their conversation, maybe they don't have the ability to be civilized who knows.

The best decisions Turbine has made besides adding new and great content is when they see a need to adjust game play (nerf as some call it) to better balance it and make classes more viable. I for one would hate to see everyone in the game play only one class because they are so unbalanced that to play any other class would be useless. Anyone remember the way wounded & puncturing weapons were back in the day, there was no reason to have any other weapon so Turbine made a much needed adjustment to the game. Instead of insults, Turbine gets my thanks for their adjustments to the game.

[01000010]

I have played this game a long time, there have been a lot of unreasonable complaints by players in this game. Often times players uninformative remarks tend to point blame at Turbine when they really do not know to what they are really speaking of, and they launch insults at Turbine like lazy, poor designers, irresponsible, etc...

Unreasonable complaint, lol. Don't know what im speaking of? Here are some facts.

1. previous to these changes, the tier 2 monkspy core cause a bug that overwrote damage on bow characters with higher strength than dex
2. previous to these changes, the Monk poison was had a bug where it wasn't working on several weapons(especially handwraps that could do slash/pierce damage) that it was supposed to work on(as per dev comment and common sense).
3. by changing both of these enhancements(textwise) to exclude bows and weapons that aren't normally slash/pierce(as in handwraps) turbine was able to "fix" 2 bugs without addressing the root of the problems.
4. The result of these actions was a severe nerf to some builds.

It doesn't take a genius or someone wearing a tin foil hat to add these up. Forum readers are supposed to be the educated segment of the player base right? Many seem so naïve and unaware.


Then they cap it off by saying that many players have left the game because of there view points of Turbine's failures and unless they get take the effort to get it right many more will leave the game, it's that simple.

It is lazy and irresponsible and it has and will cost them customers.


While I will agree Turbine could have made a few different decisions that may please some players or even make the game perform better they have certainly put great effort and money into DDO this can not be disputed. So to call them lazy and irresponsible is lazy and irresponsible from the players that make these claims without being better able to get their points across without being so incendiary or insulting. In other words these types of players just lack the ability to be civilized with their conversation, maybe they don't have the ability to be civilized who knows.

If I could think of a happy friendly way to say "hey, ive lost 100s of hours of game time leveling builds that you then nerfed just because you didn't want to make the effort to fix bugs" I surely would.


The best decisions Turbine has made besides adding new and great content is when they see a need to adjust game play (nerf as some call it) to better balance it and make classes more viable. I for one would hate to see everyone in the game play only one class because they are so unbalanced that to play any other class would be useless. Anyone remember the way wounded & puncturing weapons were back in the day, there was no reason to have any other weapon so Turbine made a much needed adjustment to the game. Instead of insults, Turbine gets my thanks for their adjustments to the game.

This was no balance issue, anyone who has played a bow character will tell you str to damage is far more powerful than dex, because str can be buffed far higher, additionally it is needed for overwhelming crit, which is a must on many dps builds nowadays. Poison was supposed to work on handwraps with slash or pierce damage capabilities from day one, since it never really worked I cant see how any imbalance came from it.

For those claiming that it was only supposed to work on melee weaps that fall within the confines of imp crit slash or pierce, well, that's quite an assumption there. First of all devs specifically stated that it should work with any weapon that could do slash/pierce damage, including handwraps and other weaps that normally wouldn't. Additionally, it has always worked with and STILL works with shuriken, which is slash but certainly doesn't fall under imp crit slash.

To the people saying only str should add to damage, well, that's your opinion. It certainly doesn't justify this bs either way. I could go into some detail about my experience in combat sports and try to prove strength isn't the endall for damage, but that's something people just wont get who haven't experienced it firsthand I imagine, for the record tho, id put in maybe 6th out of 10 attributes that govern damage dealing in a fight.

The funny thing is this is surely not over, because the same tier 2 core mokspy still interferes with PDK charisma to shortsword, so which enhancement will get nerfed to fix that? If they stay the course the word "shortswords" will either be taken off the monk dex mod core or the pdk charisma mod enhancement, because they sure haven't shown they know how to fix it otherwise.