"Perfect" XXX Fighting feats. Turbine hates TWF that much?

[Raoull]

I really don't get the design of the PTXF feats.

Right now, THF have two feats to choose from. One of them gives 5% doublestrike. Ignore the fact that it says Perfect _TWO_ Weapon Fighting, it is actually best for THFers. The other is a decent bump in glancing blow damage.

TWF fighters have one feat... and that same feat is not as good as on THF fighters.

Doublestrike is one of the few weapon abilities that is more powerful for THFers than TWFers. 5% doublestrike on a THFer is nearly a 5% boost in damage. Sure, that goes down a bit with other sources of doublestrike, but even with an additional 20 doublestrike the feat is better than +4% damage. On a TWFer, that 5% doublestrike is only worth +2.7% damage... and that is with nothing to boost offhand attacks or doublestrike beyond the base 3 feats. Any additions just make it worse.

The main problem is that 10% offhand doublestrike is just a joke. As it only fires if mainhand doublestrike fires, it is only worth 10% of what it seems to be, and that assumes +5% doublestrike from another source. So all total you're looking at +3.7% tops.

I'm not sure the design goals of Turbine, but I can't imagine they planned something like this. Were they trying to make it so each feat is more or less +5% damage? While I'm not that positive at glancing blow details, back of the napkin calcs seem to imply that pTHF is also somewhere in the +5% range. (I'm curious what someone with more familiarity thinks.)

"Fixing" the PTWF so that the offhand is either +10% attacks or offhand doublestrike works with every offhand attack seems obvious.... but that just reverses the problem a bit. I guess maybe not that badly though.... Assuming offhand doublestrike meant that every offhand had X chance at doublestrike, 10 points would equate to 8 points of mainhand doublestrike (assuming nothing else going on). Together that would be an extra 13 attacks per 180 regular ones, or +7%ish. That would be better than a THFer gets from one feat (or not depending on my glancing blow skills), but less than a THFer would get from both together.


I'd like to see something done at least. Having PTWF be best on a THF toon just makes the whole thing look silly. As long as that aspect goes away, I'd find it reasonable.

[psykopeta]

I really don't get the design of the PTXF feats.

Right now, THF have two feats to choose from. One of them gives 5% doublestrike. Ignore the fact that it says Perfect _TWO_ Weapon Fighting, it is actually best for THFers. The other is a decent bump in glancing blow damage.

TWF fighters have one feat... and that same feat is not as good as on THF fighters.

Doublestrike is one of the few weapon abilities that is more powerful for THFers than TWFers. 5% doublestrike on a THFer is nearly a 5% boost in damage. Sure, that goes down a bit with other sources of doublestrike, but even with an additional 20 doublestrike the feat is better than +4% damage. On a TWFer, that 5% doublestrike is only worth +2.7% damage... and that is with nothing to boost offhand attacks or doublestrike beyond the base 3 feats. Any additions just make it worse.

The main problem is that 10% offhand doublestrike is just a joke. As it only fires if mainhand doublestrike fires, it is only worth 10% of what it seems to be, and that assumes +5% doublestrike from another source. So all total you're looking at +3.7% tops.

I'm not sure the design goals of Turbine, but I can't imagine they planned something like this. Were they trying to make it so each feat is more or less +5% damage? While I'm not that positive at glancing blow details, back of the napkin calcs seem to imply that pTHF is also somewhere in the +5% range. (I'm curious what someone with more familiarity thinks.)

"Fixing" the PTWF so that the offhand is either +10% attacks or offhand doublestrike works with every offhand attack seems obvious.... but that just reverses the problem a bit. I guess maybe not that badly though.... Assuming offhand doublestrike meant that every offhand had X chance at doublestrike, 10 points would equate to 8 points of mainhand doublestrike (assuming nothing else going on). Together that would be an extra 13 attacks per 180 regular ones, or +7%ish. That would be better than a THFer gets from one feat (or not depending on my glancing blow skills), but less than a THFer would get from both together.


I'd like to see something done at least. Having PTWF be best on a THF toon just makes the whole thing look silly. As long as that aspect goes away, I'd find it reasonable.

guess turbine loves THF, maybe the reason you won't see ever never somone picking perfect two handed fighting is because turbine loves em more than TWF ofc

and casters? wow, casters have the best epìc feats ingame, stat or saves, even the ED feats are shame for casters

[maddmatt70]

I really don't get the design of the PTXF feats.

The main problem is that 10% offhand doublestrike is just a joke. As it only fires if mainhand doublestrike fires, it is only worth 10% of what it seems to be, and that assumes +5% doublestrike from another source. So all total you're looking at +3.7% tops.

[/qoute]
Are you sure about this I thought offhand doublestrike can fire off on any offhand attacks and not just on primary hand doublestrike? I would bug report the 10% offhand then if you have tested this rigorously and found that was the case.

[quote]
"Fixing" the PTWF so that the offhand is either +10% attacks or offhand doublestrike works with every offhand attack seems obvious.... but that just reverses the problem a bit. I guess maybe not that badly though.... Assuming offhand doublestrike meant that every offhand had X chance at doublestrike, 10 points would equate to 8 points of mainhand doublestrike (assuming nothing else going on). Together that would be an extra 13 attacks per 180 regular ones, or +7%ish. That would be better than a THFer gets from one feat (or not depending on my glancing blow skills), but less than a THFer would get from both together.

.

Same comment as above and in addition I do agree that this has to be a bug that it works for THF and I assume that it is not WAI.

[QuantumFX]

Are you sure about this I thought offhand doublestrike can fire off on any offhand attacks and not just on primary hand doublestrike? I would bug report the 10% offhand then if you have tested this rigorously and found that was the case.

He’s talking about the +5% Doublestrike that pTWF gives to the mainhand, not the 10% offhand.

And, OP, Turbine’s been on an Epic THF warpath since U14. Unfortunately, Eladrin and crew can’t seem to be bothered to give us alternative epic feats for TWF and DEX based builds.

And, both feats should require the “Greater” version of their chains as a prereq.

[blackdoguk]

I came back to the game a month or two ago and took my 20 cap twf blitz up to cap. I used to visibly hold my own against all but the very best SoS wielders. I feel kind of second rate now and I'll be tring into something else as soon as I pick up my cleaver and hang up my much loved khopeshes till they get a little love.

[karl_k0ch]

I was always wondering why PTXF didn't require GTXF.

[Raoull]

90% offhand rate, 8% doublestrike, 10% offhand doublestrike.
The way I'm doing it is just hitting the dummy with 2 weapons. Unfortunately I can't tell the difference between mainhand doublestrike and simply no offhand attack. I'm hoping raw numbers of hits end up stating something useful.

100 swings
184 attacks

Huh... that's pretty bad. Doublestrike was definitely hitting. I never saw 4 hits though, although sometimes I was watching the text instead of the floaties just to be sure I lost count.

Only planned on doing 100... lets try another 100 just to see if those number of attacks can go up. Otherwise... something seems busted, possibly the Shintao offhand increase. In theory we should see 198 hits, even without the offhand doublestrike.

100 more swings
201 hits

OK... so the first one may have been an outlier. I counted these differently though, and only used floaties. Not once did I see a quad attack.

So... in an attempt to find a confirmation of offhand doublestrike, I stopped counting attacks, swapped into wind, and just started counting my definite main/off/main combos where doublestrike fires. Oddly enough, exactly at 10, I did see a main/off/main/off.

So.....

I think it is safe to say that offhand doublestrike is a big ol' turd, and it works the way forumites have been claiming.

I feel particularly bad for the rangers. That Tempest 20 enhancement looks so awesome, yet is small fraction of power of the 5% main doublestrike at R18.

[maddmatt70]

90% offhand rate, 8% doublestrike, 10% offhand doublestrike.
The way I'm doing it is just hitting the dummy with 2 weapons. Unfortunately I can't tell the difference between mainhand doublestrike and simply no offhand attack. I'm hoping raw numbers of hits end up stating something useful.

100 swings
184 attacks

Huh... that's pretty bad. Doublestrike was definitely hitting. I never saw 4 hits though, although sometimes I was watching the text instead of the floaties just to be sure I lost count.

Only planned on doing 100... lets try another 100 just to see if those number of attacks can go up. Otherwise... something seems busted, possibly the Shintao offhand increase. In theory we should see 198 hits, even without the offhand doublestrike.

100 more swings
201 hits

OK... so the first one may have been an outlier. I counted these differently though, and only used floaties. Not once did I see a quad attack.

So... in an attempt to find a confirmation of offhand doublestrike, I stopped counting attacks, swapped into wind, and just started counting my definite main/off/main combos where doublestrike fires. Oddly enough, exactly at 10, I did see a main/off/main/off.

So.....

I think it is safe to say that offhand doublestrike is a big ol' turd, and it works the way forumites have been claiming.

I feel particularly bad for the rangers. That Tempest 20 enhancement looks so awesome, yet is small fraction of power of the 5% main doublestrike at R18.

I have heard the tempest 20 was bugged. What you are saying here is that all offhand doublestrike is bugged. I am not quite convinced. Your second reported test here indicates that in terms of number of swings/hits it might be working properly which to me is easier to measure then types of hits. I would do 10 sets of X number of swings which is a small but decent sample.

[maddmatt70]

I have heard the tempest 20 was bugged. What you are saying here is that all offhand doublestrike is bugged. I am not quite convinced. Your second reported test here indicates that in terms of number of swings/hits it might be working properly which to me is easier to measure then types of hits. I would do 10 sets of X number of swings which is a small but decent sample.

I would also turn off main hand doublestrike if possible..

[Teh_Troll]

I came back to the game a month or two ago and took my 20 cap twf blitz up to cap. I used to visibly hold my own against all but the very best SoS wielders. I feel kind of second rate now and I'll be tring into something else as soon as I pick up my cleaver and hang up my much loved khopeshes till they get a little love.

There are TWFing builds that are more than competitive right now.

The horc blitz just ain't one of them.

Human either fighter 12/Ranger 6/monk 2 or Fighter 8/Ranger 6/Monk 6 - I'm the former but the latter has some defensive advantages. The damage is excellent.

[Teh_Troll]

Are you sure about this I thought offhand doublestrike can fire off on any offhand attacks and not just on primary hand doublestrike? I would bug report the 10% offhand then if you have tested this rigorously and found that was the case.
.

Yes, I'm sure this is bugged. it is not WAI according to Vargoulle. It has been bug reported.

[maddmatt70]

There are TWFing builds that are more than competitive right now.

The horc blitz just ain't one of them.

Human either fighter 12/Ranger 6/monk 2 or Fighter 8/Ranger 6/Monk 6 - I'm the former but the latter has some defensive advantages. The damage is excellent.

I was thinking about 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 cleric especially since you get empower healing for cocoon. Why human by the way - I like humans, but think some other races do more damage like a halfling for example with all the sneak damage. Obviously pure rogue twf is pretty sweet as well.

[Teh_Troll]

I was thinking about 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 cleric especially since you get empower healing for cocoon.

2 monk = evasion (with a reflex-save high enough to work a lot, not 100% but works well), 10% more off-hand (stacks with tempest, tested as recently as yesterday), 2 feats, healing amp (okay, a little but every bit counts), monk stances which on a fighter you can easily afford.

2 Cleric = a few spells, divine might, Empowered healing.

I ran him up to 28 in primarily EE BYOH groups. used cocoon but have switched to heal-scrolls and SF pots to save a twist and get some AP back for other stuff. When I used cocoon I was still able to get a bunch back per tick with good hjealing amp, 108 devotion trinket, and the stuff from deepwood.

I ultimately dumped cocoon because against bosses I have to use SF pots anyway. And for healing up between encounters scrolls are fine.

I think Monk is better. YMMV



Why human by the way - I like humans, but think some other races do more damage like a halfling for example with all the sneak damage.

Because I was a human Stalwart S&B tank before U19 made them useless and it's what I could get with an LR+20

Free feat, extra skill point, healing, HV damage boost + hasteboots pwns stuff. The human extra stat thingy on action boost works with powersurge as that counts as an action boost. My power surge gives +11 STR. Healing amp is just awesome as well.



Obviously pure rogue twf is pretty sweet as well.

That should go without saying, but it probably needs to be said anyway. It's still probably the best DPS in the game against most targets.

[maddmatt70]

2 monk = evasion (with a reflex-save high enough to work a lot, not 100% but works well), 10% more off-hand (stacks with tempest, tested as recently as yesterday), 2 feats, healing amp (okay, a little but every bit counts), monk stances which on a fighter you can easily afford.

2 Cleric = a few spells, divine might, Empowered healing.

I ran him up to 28 in primarily EE BYOH groups. used cocoon but have switched to heal-scrolls and SF pots to save a twist and get some AP back for other stuff. When I used cocoon I was still able to get a bunch back per tick with good hjealing amp, 108 devotion trinket, and the stuff from deepwood.

I ultimately dumped cocoon because against bosses I have to use SF pots anyway. And for healing up between encounters scrolls are fine.

I think Monk is better. YMMV

.

I would have been more receptive to an argument that 12 fighter 6 monk 2 cleric is better then 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 cleric. Oh and you can use cocoon on boss fights and heal through it. I stopped using silver flame pots. Using heal scrolls and silver flame pots lowers dps more then any twist can give. -10 to stats and switch to a heal scroll and back to weapon that is a lot of dps loss.

[Teh_Troll]

I would have been more receptive to an argument that 12 fighter 6 monk 2 cleric is better then 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 cleric.

Argument? That would imply that I was in any way not correct. This is a lecture not a debate.

Dumping the ranger levels is 10% less off-hand and loss of a bunch of free feats as well as PRR and other stuff.



Oh and you can use cocoon on boss fights and heal through it.

That cooldown is too long, that 150 temp HP needed to hjeal is gone in one hit.

So you get hit in the first second of the coccoon what you gonna do for the next 11? it happens. Pop an SF pot, take it to the face, keep hitting. After leveling the toon to 28 running 90%+ EEs I was observing that most of the time when cocoon was nice a scroll could have done the job. If I can stay alive in EE Blue Dragon or EE Storm Horns quests it's good enough.



I stopped using silver flame pots. Using heal scrolls and silver flame pots lowers dps more then any twist can give. -10 to stats and switch to a heal scroll and back to weapon that is a lot of dps loss.

-10 to stats isn't that much with all the damage we do these days, especially since the -5 to-hit simply doesn't matter at all. It's maybe a 2-3% DPS loss.

I've killed EE Sobrien (helpless, solo scaling) in as fast as 22 seconds with this build. Average time is about 25 seconds. Drow Khopeshes, bunch of DPS gear, stuff any 28 should have. If I lose 2-3% of the DPS from a SF stat-penalty I can live with it.

[smckelv]

For THFs, the lvl 28 Perfect TWF feat is the least crummy of options available. I ended up with pTWF myself and was pleasantly surprised at the obvious boost. Doublestrike is a rarish buff overall, stacking doublestrike is even rarer for some classes.

It is not that Turbine dislikes TWF, it is just that they have an over-estimated opinion of glancing blows. Yes it helps, but not as much in the most important fights (which tend toward single target DPS). And I know this takes me back a couple of years, but when they changed glancing blows to not proc while moving....they became very silly for something like a Barbarian to max out.

[Sonos]

I would have been more receptive to an argument that 12 fighter 6 monk 2 cleric is better then 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 cleric. Oh and you can use cocoon on boss fights and heal through it. I stopped using silver flame pots. Using heal scrolls and silver flame pots lowers dps more then any twist can give. -10 to stats and switch to a heal scroll and back to weapon that is a lot of dps loss.

I think he's going by the monster philosophy of crazy alacrity. Personally I would go with helf for hamp and do the monster version over cleric splash. With Deepwood Sniper, your cocoon should be sick. I don't have DS enhancements yet but I'm gonna try it out, thanks to a guildie's advice. My cocoon as it is, has me rarely hitting a heal scroll. Evasion relieves you of so much incoming damage that 2 cleric just isn't going to be worth it for most people imo.

[maddmatt70]

Argument? That would imply that I was in any way not correct. This is a lecture not a debate.

Dumping the ranger levels is 10% less off-hand and loss of a bunch of free feats as well as PRR and other stuff.



That cooldown is too long, that 150 temp HP needed to hjeal is gone in one hit.

So you get hit in the first second of the coccoon what you gonna do for the next 11? it happens. Pop an SF pot, take it to the face, keep hitting. After leveling the toon to 28 running 90%+ EEs I was observing that most of the time when cocoon was nice a scroll could have done the job. If I can stay alive in EE Blue Dragon or EE Storm Horns quests it's good enough.


This is what i mean you made a post a while back where somebody said they used cocoon a lot before they got hit where you said that was foolish. I use cocoon before I get hit and then after I get hit. That decreases all of this margin you talk about. I also make sure to have mid 40s physical resistance at least on all my characters to reduce the damage in coming. Coccoon there is a barely any pause whereas heal scrolls there are because you pull them out use them and them repull out your weapon - hate it what a dps killer. I admit I have played healing battle bards for the whole time that I have played DDO so I am well versed in all of this healing and fighting jibber jabber.



-10 to stats isn't that much with all the damage we do these days, especially since the -5 to-hit simply doesn't matter at all. It's maybe a 2-3% DPS loss.

I've killed EE Sobrien (helpless, solo scaling) in as fast as 22 seconds with this build. Average time is about 25 seconds. Drow Khopeshes, bunch of DPS gear, stuff any 28 should have. If I lose 2-3% of the DPS from a SF stat-penalty I can live with it.

Grr I hate -10 to stats it also lowers saves which sucks. I am using silver flame and heal scroll on my pure level 20 halfling rogue sigh. Shudder..

[maddmatt70]

I think he's going by the monster philosophy of crazy alacrity. Personally I would go with helf for hamp and do the monster version over cleric splash. With Deepwood Sniper, your cocoon should be sick. I don't have DS enhancements yet but I'm gonna try it out, thanks to a guildie's advice. My cocoon as it is, has me rarely hitting a heal scroll. Evasion relieves you of so much incoming damage that 2 cleric just isn't going to be worth it for most people imo.

I am a little bit confused with the deepwood. I was playing around with one of my other characters and they have positive healing power with the core abilities, but there still is positive healing power with animal empathies according to the text? I did not play long enough to test things out with my 16 bard 3 ranger 1 cleric. Thought it was going to be nerf, but was it?

[FalseFlag]

This is a lecture not a debate.

Heh. I chuckled.