Army of One

[Panpiper]

I am wondering if anyone has a build, focused on the idea of a wizard (I doubt sorcerer would work well for this) built to maximize enchantment. The idea would be for the caster to get within range of a mob filled room, to cast into it, Mass Suggestion or Mass Charm Monster using Extend, Enlarge and Heighten, followed by a similarly enhanced Otto's Sphere of Dancing, then basically wait till the room is clear. I would expect to also have a Summoned Pet and/or a Skeletal Knight to help clear any mobs not ensorcelled and as they break the enchantment (can you have both a skeletal knight and a summoned pet at the same time?).

Obviously the build would be focused on maximizing the effectiveness of enchantment spells, their DC, spell penetration, reducing the cost of Extend, Enlarge and Heighten, etc.. I am thinking probably a drow elf with tier five Archmage enhancements and capstone, with enough maybe in Palemaster to boost the skeletal knight to something decent. The Augment Summons feat would be a no-brainer.

Were I designing this toon, I would call it "Army of One".

[Havok.cry]

It works well for solo, right up until you run into entire quest chains full of enchantment immune mobs. I would make sure to have a second focus to cover those times.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

Here's one possible build, along these lines:

Iraemice Hlaneld – “The shrouded drow enchantress”

Standard drow 28 point build ...

STR: 10
DEX: 10
CON: 14
INT: 20
WIS: 8
CHA: 10


Skills:
max ranks: UMD, concentration,spellpower, heal, spot, search, balance, and eventually diplomacy
some points in: jump, maybe haggle


Feats:
1: mental toughness
1: extend
3: spell focus: enchantment
5: improved mental toughness
6: maximize
9: insightful reflexes
10: heighten
12: greater spell focus: enchantment
15: enlarge
15: spell penetration
18: greater spell penetration
20: quicken
21: epic spell focus: enchantment
24: epic spell penetration
26: toughness (?)
27: epic mental toughness
28: ??

- If the mental toughness line can bedropped, then augment summoning and empower can be added. SPs are nice when you're a PM, though, as your offense and defense depend on having them.
- You might opt for augment summoning over insightful reflexes, depending on how much you value personal defenses over having your summons and charmed critters doing their job better for you.


Enhancements

Archmage(41 points in total)
full core abilities (enchantment) – 6
full spell penetration – 6
full spell critical – 8
full spell DCs – 6 (2 enchantment, 1necromancy)
3 efficient metamagic – 6 (maximize)
both INT – 4
full subtle spellcasting – 3
arcane supremacy - 2

PM: 39
5 core – 5
full criticals – 8
both INT - 4
improved shrouding - 2
extra necromancy DC – 2
full negative energy conduit – 3
full summons – 15

Drow - 0

- You might want to level to 12 on the conjuration or evocation archmage enhancements line, to make your life simpler, and then switch to enchantment once you've got enchant monster. Or not.
- You could invest in the drow racial enhancements, getting 10 points (full core and the enchantment saves line), as the extra INT gives you 1 more DC to all spell types and you get an extra DC to enchantment (tier 2 enchantment lore gives +1 to enchantment DCs). But, if you go that route then you choose between sacrificing arcane supremacy, the 5th tier SLA, and top tier DC enhancements from the AM enhancement tree, you give up Shroud of the Lich and some defensive capabilities you'd probably otherwise take from the PM enhancement tree, or you don't take either wizard capstone, thereby losing the DC you gain by taking drow INT, as well as other capstone benefits. As bad as the last choice might sound, treating your drow enhancement investments as your "capstone" replacement might be the best choice, if you decide to go that route.


Epic Destinies
I'm not certain, not having experiencedthem yet, but I'm guessing Magister for the boosts to DCs.

Hopefully this helps.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

I am wondering if anyone has a build, focused on the idea of a wizard (I doubt sorcerer would work well for this) built to maximize enchantment. The idea would be for the caster to get within range of a mob filled room, to cast into it, Mass Suggestion or Mass Charm Monster using Extend, Enlarge and Heighten, followed by a similarly enhanced Otto's Sphere of Dancing, then basically wait till the room is clear. I would expect to also have a Summoned Pet and/or a Skeletal Knight to help clear any mobs not ensorcelled and as they break the enchantment (can you have both a skeletal knight and a summoned pet at the same time?).

Obviously the build would be focused on maximizing the effectiveness of enchantment spells, their DC, spell penetration, reducing the cost of Extend, Enlarge and Heighten, etc.. I am thinking probably a drow elf with tier five Archmage enhancements and capstone, with enough maybe in Palemaster to boost the skeletal knight to something decent. The Augment Summons feat would be a no-brainer.

Were I designing this toon, I would call it "Army of One".

I used to go enchantment specc'd on a regular basis for leveling my casters. They've since adjusted the saves/lengths of time/spell effects that it's not really worth it to me anymore. Coupling that with epic immunities, and it went the way of the dodo.

But here's a sample screenshot from the way back machine.

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h373/osharan/ScreenShot00098_zps2f021553.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/osharan/media/ScreenShot00098_zps2f021553.jpg.html)

[voodoogroves]

I had this silly idea with an iconic - Morninglord (for INT + elf bonus to DCs)

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425396-Silly-Idea-Trampire

It should hit the same DC as the drow - morninglords have to have 1 Cleric, so tag on 2 bard. You're short the capstone, but you get the +1 from Bard. You don't have as good spell-pen, but you do get a haunting fascinate for an additional will debuff.

[Lanhelin]

(can you have both a skeletal knight and a summoned pet at the same time?).

Yes. And a Hireling too.

Just some thoughts about the Enchantment build:

I built a Wiz based on EllisDee's Pale Trapper build, so I took two Rogue Levels at 1 and 9, the Enchantment Wiz is Level 16/2 currently, Warforged, 32 pt, no past lives. When I TR him, I'd probably take one Rogue/Arti Level only for the trap skills (or take Wiz 19 instead, but I'm not sure yet) and one Druid Level, because the Wiz alone only has one Tier 6 spell (symbol of persuasion) that can charm animals and it has a very long cooldown (even quickened it'd be 40 sec). One Druid Level would grant the Charm Animal spell, which can't be heightened though but spammed like Sonic Blast which - unmeta'ed - still does its job at Level 18 against elite animals (daze on lost will save). This plan would result in more Wisdom points spent at char creation and less Strenght, Dexterity and Charisma, because there won't be much other ways to push the DC a bit besides SF, GSF and ESF. Side effect: you can additionally use the wolf companion for activating/lever-pulling too.

I didn't put much points into Pale Master yet, because I put some in the Rogue Mechanics Tree for better trapping and the racial tree for more HP. When you plan the build, take Insightful Reflexes, Augment Summoning, Enlarge and Heighten as soon as possible. Especially Enlarge and Heighten are the main metamagics for Enchantment spells, Extend and Quicken mainly for the other CC spells like the dancing ball, so take Quicken before you reach Wiz Level 13. Currently I didn't take Extend yet, but probably later, and I do not miss it so far.

In general for an Enchantment build, three Druid past lives might be a good thing to think about aswell, because of the past life feat which, if gotten 3 times, buffs hires, skeletons, summons and charmed mobs with +6 to all abilities, so it would be +10 together with Augment Summoning. But it's viable without it too.

If you plan to go with Hirelings, all Clerics with Divine Vitality are highly useful (unfortunately it seems the Level 17 cleric hire to be the last one who has DV, epic hires I don't know yet) but when you get Reconstruct, the Warforged Barbs, Fighters and Paladins could be very helpful too.

Usually it's pretty easy to charm your own army - as long as the mobs are < or = your level. Yesterday eg. I visited the Devil's Battlefield and charming/suggesting/dominating there was a pain. Though devils and demons were relatively easy to charm, the drow there often resisted or won their saving rolls and the map is crowded with them. So I'd recommend to visit this area at Level 19+

Regarding ED's I can't tell anything due to no experience yet.

[EssenceofEvil]

Don't forget you're +10 stat enchanted army has a downfall. 10 wisdom=+5 will saves versus your enchantments continual hold.

[EnjoyTheJourney]

...

When you plan the build, take Insightful Reflexes, Augment Summoning, Enlarge and Heighten as soon as possible. Especially Enlarge and Heighten are the main metamagics for Enchantment spells, Extend and Quicken mainly for the other CC spells like the dancing ball, so take Quicken before you reach Wiz Level 13. Currently I didn't take Extend yet, but probably later, and I do not miss it so far.

...The main point that caught my attention here is the reference to Extend. It doubles the lengths of buffs (and death aura, lesser death aura, for whatever reason). But, it doesn't extend the length of many enchantment spells that affect mobs, and it particularly doesn't affect Otto's Sphere of Dancing (at least according to ddowiki.com).

Extend does affect Mind Fog, for whatever reason, at least according to ddowiki.com. Likewise, the wiki lists Hold Monster (but not Mass Hold Monster) and Mass Charm Monster (but not Charm Monster and Charm Person) as being affected by Extend on ddowiki.com. But, I'm guessing those entries are errors, and perhaps the Mind Fog entry is as well.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

The main point that caught my attention here is the reference to Extend. It doubles the lengths of buffs (and death aura, lesser death aura, for whatever reason). But, it doesn't extend the length of many enchantment spells that affect mobs, and it particularly doesn't affect Otto's Sphere of Dancing (at least according to ddowiki.com).

Extend does affect Mind Fog, for whatever reason, at least according to ddowiki.com. Likewise, the wiki lists Hold Monster (but not Mass Hold Monster) and Mass Charm Monster (but not Charm Monster and Charm Person) as being affected by Extend on ddowiki.com. But, I'm guessing those entries are errors, and perhaps the Mind Fog entry is as well.

At some point in the last year or two, they stopped extend from affecting most offensive spells. I haven't bothered to go through any lists to test which ones were changed, but it wouldn't surprise me if some of them were unchanged. Either through design or from being overlooked.

[Panpiper]

So I've been looking at the feat selection with an eye towards making enchantments the most effective possible, and very much intending to make maximum use as well of the Archmage Conjuration line of SLAs, most specifically web. (For early levels, before gaining mass suggestion, web the room and cast regular suggestion at whatever isn't stuck.) Given that metamagic feats have zero spell point costs when used with SLA's and that there is little more useful for an adventure than good crowd control, the early feat selection is slanted towards making that web the most effective possible with later feat selections going towards enhancing the effectiveness of enchantment.

1 Augment Summoning
1 Enlarge Spell
3 Mental Toughness
5 Quicken Spell
6 Heighten Spell
9 Insightful Reflexes
10 Spell Focus (Enchantment)
12 Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
15 Spell Penetration
15 Improved Mental Toughness
18 Greater Spell Penetration
20 Maximize Spell

I've not bothered with Extend or Empower and left Maximize for last. Extend is mostly for buffs and I can't see how saving a few spell points there is worth the sacrifice of one of the other listed feats. all of which seem crucial to me. Empower was a tossup with Maximize, figuring I should take one or the other. If I was intending to do a 'lot' of damage casting, I would go with empower instead, due to it's much lower SP cost after enhancements and gear reductions when compared to Maximize. I figure however than an enchanter is going to cast damage only in rare circumstances and those circumstances are those in which maximum damage is called for. I left it for last as everything else is more of a priority for a CC/enchanter specialist.

Have I got anything terribly wrong?

[voodoogroves]

So I've been looking at the feat selection with an eye towards making enchantments the most effective possible, and very much intending to make maximum use as well of the Archmage Conjuration line of SLAs, most specifically web. (For early levels, before gaining mass suggestion, web the room and cast regular suggestion at whatever isn't stuck.) Given that metamagic feats have zero spell point costs when used with SLA's and that there is little more useful for an adventure than good crowd control, the early feat selection is slanted towards making that web the most effective possible with later feat selections going towards enhancing the effectiveness of enchantment.

1 Augment Summoning
1 Enlarge Spell
3 Mental Toughness
5 Quicken Spell
6 Heighten Spell
9 Insightful Reflexes
10 Spell Focus (Enchantment)
12 Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
15 Spell Penetration
15 Improved Mental Toughness
18 Greater Spell Penetration
20 Maximize Spell

I've not bothered with Extend or Empower and left Maximize for last. Extend is mostly for buffs and I can't see how saving a few spell points there is worth the sacrifice of one of the other listed feats. all of which seem crucial to me. Empower was a tossup with Maximize, figuring I should take one or the other. If I was intending to do a 'lot' of damage casting, I would go with empower instead, due to it's much lower SP cost after enhancements and gear reductions when compared to Maximize. I figure however than an enchanter is going to cast damage only in rare circumstances and those circumstances are those in which maximum damage is called for. I left it for last as everything else is more of a priority for a CC/enchanter specialist.

Have I got anything terribly wrong?

MT / IMT can be swapped for PL Wizard and Bard, if you have space for them on later lives. Solid enough list - though I'd push maximize earlier. You'll be able to manage trash just fine - the bosses are not going to be susceptible to your enchantments, and for that you may want Maximize to DoT them down / zap.

[bsquishwizzy]

My thoughts are this:

Go PM, and get Enchantment as a secondary spell focus. There are a couple of reasons for this:

1) Undead - enchantment doesn't work, and the only thing that does work is necro spells. You have equivalents to charms and holds in this line.

2) Critters immune to Enchantment. Spiders are notorious for this. You'll need something like Wail to kill them off if they surround you.

3) PM Pet. Can be used on conjunction with a summon and hireling.

4) Lich form - boost to DCs. (Not sure if AM has an applicable enhancement).

I personally think it is a cool idea, mainly because I love CC spells.

[jalont]

I used to go enchantment specc'd on a regular basis for leveling my casters. They've since adjusted the saves/lengths of time/spell effects that it's not really worth it to me anymore. Coupling that with epic immunities, and it went the way of the dodo.

But here's a sample screenshot from the way back machine.

http://i1106.photobucket.com/albums/h373/osharan/ScreenShot00098_zps2f021553.jpg (http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/osharan/media/ScreenShot00098_zps2f021553.jpg.html)

This is exactly how I zerg TangleRoot on every wizard life. This pic would still be able to be taken today. :P

[EnjoyTheJourney]

So I've been looking at the feat selection with an eye towards making enchantments the most effective possible, and very much intending to make maximum use as well of the Archmage Conjuration line of SLAs, most specifically web. (For early levels, before gaining mass suggestion, web the room and cast regular suggestion at whatever isn't stuck.) Given that metamagic feats have zero spell point costs when used with SLA's and that there is little more useful for an adventure than good crowd control, the early feat selection is slanted towards making that web the most effective possible with later feat selections going towards enhancing the effectiveness of enchantment.

1 Augment Summoning
1 Enlarge Spell
3 Mental Toughness
5 Quicken Spell
6 Heighten Spell
9 Insightful Reflexes
10 Spell Focus (Enchantment)
12 Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment)
15 Spell Penetration
15 Improved Mental Toughness
18 Greater Spell Penetration
20 Maximize Spell

I've not bothered with Extend or Empower and left Maximize for last. Extend is mostly for buffs and I can't see how saving a few spell points there is worth the sacrifice of one of the other listed feats. all of which seem crucial to me. Empower was a tossup with Maximize, figuring I should take one or the other. If I was intending to do a 'lot' of damage casting, I would go with empower instead, due to it's much lower SP cost after enhancements and gear reductions when compared to Maximize. I figure however than an enchanter is going to cast damage only in rare circumstances and those circumstances are those in which maximum damage is called for. I left it for last as everything else is more of a priority for a CC/enchanter specialist.

Have I got anything terribly wrong?Two thoughts to pass along:

1. If you're using palemaster shrouds (Wraith, Lich), then Extend is a good feat to have because it doubles the duration of Death Aura. Death Aura is a self-heal for shrouded wizards that also damages most mobs (those not undead); doubling its duration doubles your wizard's healing for quite a bit less SPs than you'd pay if you simply cast Death Aura twice, in addition to doubling the duration of haste, displacement, rage, and other highly prized buffs. If you're not taking shrouds, then Extend is an easier feat to drop. I agree that it's fairly tough to choose what other feats to drop, though, and your overall plan for feats still looks solid.

2. If choosing between Empower and Maximize, then Empower is the better choice to drop. Maximize is a better deal for SPs spent and it gets even better when you consider spell point cost reductions from enhancements (per enhancement point spent). I'd also agree that taking Maximize much earlier is a good idea, for the same reason pointed out by voodoogroves.

May you have an enchanting experience with your wizard. :)

[maddmatt70]

You ever think about making a 15 wizard 5 bard (spellsinger 5)? The character gets mass charm monster and has the highest possible enchantment dc in game. I was thinking could be pretty awesome although one trick pony..

[Dorian]

I used to go enchantment specc'd on a regular basis for leveling my casters. They've since adjusted the saves/lengths of time/spell effects that it's not really worth it to me anymore. Coupling that with epic immunities, and it went the way of the dodo.



*this

With epic immunities, the charms dont last long at all. Did they make changes to this is update 19?

Might still be viable for heroic leveling.

[Lanhelin]

1) Undead - enchantment doesn't work, and the only thing that does work is necro spells. You have equivalents to charms and holds in this line.

But most undead have low Will saves, so the necromancy charm/control/hold spells work pretty good even without spell focus necromancy.



2) Critters immune to Enchantment. Spiders are notorious for this. You'll need something like Wail to kill them off if they surround you.

Critters are not immune to enchantment, it's just that Wizards have no Charm Animal spells like Druids or Rangers. That's why I'm thinking about taking one Level of Druid to get this spell. I already tested it on a Wiz 14 / Rogue 1 / Druid 1 toon in the Vale of Twilight and it worked pretty good. Animals have low Will savings too, like Undead. The build requires a bit more points into Wisdom, because there are only a few ways to push DC, but it seems to be enough.

[HastyPudding]

Enchantment is hardly a dead spec, but charm spammers are (I only charm mobs while soloing, because pink hats annoy most parties). Enchantment doesn't have to mean a charmer; the spec is more related to hypnotism, hold person/monster, mass hold person/monster, mind fog, symbol of stunning, resistible dance, irresistible dance, and otto's dancing sphere (with the exception of a few relatively unused spells like sleep, deep slumber, and crushing despair). Charm, dominate, and suggestion spells should be left for soloing.

[tharveysinjin]

Your idea is very workable. I have an enchanter who is destroying content.

1. Max out your int is key. Every increase to int that you can get is worth it, because that is the primary method of increasing yuor DCs.
2. Take the feats and enhancements that will increase your caster level.
3. Find equipment that will increase your enchantment DCs
4. If you can do it, go completionist, with three wizard past lives. Your two biggest challenges will be enemy saves and enemy spell resistance, so, you need to mitigate those.
5. Don't go wraith or lich in PM. Go vampire. You get the benefits of being undead, but, you get a +2 bonues to enchantement DCs and to charisma based skills.
6. Pump up UMD. In spite of what others may say, there will be times when you need to duck out of undead form to avoid massive light damage. Those heals scrolls will save your bacon.
7. Boost your con, but, not at the expense of intelligence. Every level-based stat increase should go to intelligence.
8. Make sure you boost your heal skill, because that will affect your negative energy healing on yourself.
9. That high intelligence will also improve your evocation DCs, so, make sure you have an energy tupe that you can boost to 390 or higher.
10. Max out your Epic Destinies, starting with magister and draconic incarnation.

I know that the conventional wisdom currently is to go pale master in Shiradi. (From all of the people who decried enchanters as "One trick ponies", mind you.) However, I have found great success in my build, and, in fact, this build provides numerous option.

1. I can hold just about everything, sans those creatures that are immune. In magister, my enchantment DCs are at 66 (soon to be 67). In Draconic, they are 61.
2. Because I have secondary specialization in necromancy, I can wail and finger most other non-boss mobs. My Necro DC is 58.
3. When holds and wails fail, I can charm or dance the mobs.
4. Power word stun is also very nice to have, since there is no save.
5. Because I am in Draconic Incarnation most of the time, with a fire spell power of 395 to 445, I can do incredible amounts of dps as well, with bursts, dragon breath and my energy aura.


I won't lie to you. . .getting to this point took time, because I had to be a completionist and I had to get a few extra past lives. It has paid off, though, and, the best part is, the class is a blast to play.

[HastyPudding]

Your idea is very workable. I have an enchanter who is destroying content.

1. Max out your int is key. Every increase to int that you can get is worth it, because that is the primary method of increasing yuor DCs.
2. Take the feats and enhancements that will increase your caster level.
3. Find equipment that will increase your enchantment DCs
4. If you can do it, go completionist, with three wizard past lives. Your two biggest challenges will be enemy saves and enemy spell resistance, so, you need to mitigate those.
5. Don't go wraith or lich in PM. Go vampire. You get the benefits of being undead, but, you get a +2 bonues to enchantement DCs and to charisma based skills.
6. Pump up UMD. In spite of what others may say, there will be times when you need to duck out of undead form to avoid massive light damage. Those heals scrolls will save your bacon.
7. Boost your con, but, not at the expense of intelligence. Every level-based stat increase should go to intelligence.
8. Make sure you boost your heal skill, because that will affect your negative energy healing on yourself.
9. That high intelligence will also improve your evocation DCs, so, make sure you have an energy tupe that you can boost to 390 or higher.
10. Max out your Epic Destinies, starting with magister and draconic incarnation.

I know that the conventional wisdom currently is to go pale master in Shiradi. (From all of the people who decried enchanters as "One trick ponies", mind you.) However, I have found great success in my build, and, in fact, this build provides numerous option.

1. I can hold just about everything, sans those creatures that are immune. In magister, my enchantment DCs are at 66 (soon to be 67). In Draconic, they are 61.
2. Because I have secondary specialization in necromancy, I can wail and finger most other non-boss mobs. My Necro DC is 58.
3. When holds and wails fail, I can charm or dance the mobs.
4. Power word stun is also very nice to have, since there is no save.
5. Because I am in Draconic Incarnation most of the time, with a fire spell power of 395 to 445, I can do incredible amounts of dps as well, with bursts, dragon breath and my energy aura.


I won't lie to you. . .getting to this point took time, because I had to be a completionist and I had to get a few extra past lives. It has paid off, though, and, the best part is, the class is a blast to play.

Don't forget the bard past life feat, it acts as a +1 enchantment DC if you take the active one.

This entire thread makes me wonder about the old 'Voice of Power' path for the sorcerer. Obviously, the paths were terrible and useful only to complete newbies to DnD, but I'd be lying if an enchantment sorcerer didn't appeal to me. All those spell points going into massive amounts of mass holds, dancing everywhere, pink hat parties...

[Lanhelin]

Enchantment is hardly a dead spec, but charm spammers are (I only charm mobs while soloing, because pink hats annoy most parties).

This is only partially true. There are a few quests with mob groups respawning or huge amounts of them (I don't remember the quest names, but like the one where you have to defeat a whole village full of minotaurs or the other where you enter a forest and directly at the start there spawn groups of mobs again and again and you have to defend the area for a certain amount of time) or enemies far away and above, unreachable for melees (like the one Drow-Dungeon in the Sands) or certain quest targets like in the cave dungeon in The Twelve where not killing the earth elementals would cause an additional chest to spawn. In these cases charms are very useful and hardly annoying.

Charmed mobs can always be released, this should not be a problem because it takes only a few more seconds to complete the dungeon. It saves Player-SP, it contributes mob-damage and/or one or the other mob-buff to the party. The only annoying thing is, that Healer Hirelings would heal charmed mobs to full HP, wasting their SP on them. This is the only real annoying thing, maybe melees get a bit annoyed too when their attacks come to nothing. But this is a low price compaired to the advantages.

@Topic:

I thought a bit further about splashing Druid and there seem to be a few viable builds when Wizard 17 is the minimum to get the Mass Hold Monster spell. Splashing Rogue additionally for Trap skills only or +Evasion should work too.

1. Wizard 19 / Druid 1 (pure Enchanter, more high level Wizard spells)
2. Wizard 18 / Druid 1 / Rogue 1 (Trap skills)
3. Wizard 17 / Druid 3 (+1 DC for heightened Charm Animal; Animal Trance, Hold Animal and Cure Light Wounds (Tier 2 Druid spells))
4. Wizard 17 / Druid 1 / Rogue 2 (Evasion)

I'm not sure now which path I'll follow. #3 and #4 appeal to me the most, but on the other side more high level Wiz spells and longer duration of Wiz buffs are also good things to think about.

[ThePrincipal]

You ever think about making a 15 wizard 5 bard (spellsinger 5)? The character gets mass charm monster and has the highest possible enchantment dc in game. I was thinking could be pretty awesome although one trick pony..

Gives you +1 DC right? Spellsinger gives +3 Enchant DC from (1 yellow crown, 2 prodigy). Lvl 15 wizard loses -2 DC from Heighten only going to lvl 7 caster level.

[richieelias27]

This is only partially true. There are a few quests with mob groups respawning or huge amounts of them (I don't remember the quest names, but like the one where you have to defeat a whole village full of minotaurs or the other where you enter a forest and directly at the start there spawn groups of mobs again and again and you have to defend the area for a certain amount of time) or enemies far away and above, unreachable for melees (like the one Drow-Dungeon in the Sands) or certain quest targets like in the cave dungeon in The Twelve where not killing the earth elementals would cause an additional chest to spawn. In these cases charms are very useful and hardly annoying.

Charmed mobs can always be released, this should not be a problem because it takes only a few more seconds to complete the dungeon. It saves Player-SP, it contributes mob-damage and/or one or the other mob-buff to the party. The only annoying thing is, that Healer Hirelings would heal charmed mobs to full HP, wasting their SP on them. This is the only real annoying thing, maybe melees get a bit annoyed too when their attacks come to nothing. But this is a low price compaired to the advantages.

@Topic:

I thought a bit further about splashing Druid and there seem to be a few viable builds when Wizard 17 is the minimum to get the Mass Hold Monster spell. Splashing Rogue additionally for Trap skills only or +Evasion should work too.

1. Wizard 19 / Druid 1 (pure Enchanter, more high level Wizard spells)
2. Wizard 18 / Druid 1 / Rogue 1 (Trap skills)
3. Wizard 17 / Druid 3 (+1 DC for heightened Charm Animal; Animal Trance, Hold Animal and Cure Light Wounds (Tier 2 Druid spells))
4. Wizard 17 / Druid 1 / Rogue 2 (Evasion)

I'm not sure now which path I'll follow. #3 and #4 appeal to me the most, but on the other side more high level Wiz spells and longer duration of Wiz buffs are also good things to think about.

I'm not seeing any synergy between Druid and Wizard... especially with 3 druid levels. You miss out on Lich so that you can gain... what exactly?

[Lanhelin]

I'm not seeing any synergy between Druid and Wizard... especially with 3 druid levels. You miss out on Lich so that you can gain... what exactly?

The main purposes to splash Druid: Taking one Druid Level gives the spell Charm Animal (for Spiders, Lions, Dogs, Scorpions and Bears). Wizards cannot charm those types of mobs, except the magical beast subtypes. Taking three Levels gives Hold Animal. Minor benefits: Animal Form makes the Wiz a bit more survivable in lower content melee range; the Wands & Scrolls Enhancement costs 4 AP in the Season's Herald tree, but 9 AP in the Archmage tree; a lever-pulling Wolf Companion.
I wouldn't take Lich for Enchantment purpose - Vampire would be better because of +2 DC to this school. I put some further thoughts on these builds in this thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/427478-Wizard-Some-thoughts-about-the-ultimate-Enchanter) if you're interested.

[richieelias27]

The main purposes to splash Druid: Taking one Druid Level gives the spell Charm Animal (for Spiders, Lions, Dogs, Scorpions and Bears). Wizards cannot charm those types of mobs, except the magical beast subtypes. Taking three Levels gives Hold Animal. Minor benefits: Animal Form makes the Wiz a bit more survivable in lower content melee range; the Wands & Scrolls Enhancement costs 4 AP in the Season's Herald tree, but 9 AP in the Archmage tree; a lever-pulling Wolf Companion.
I wouldn't take Lich for Enchantment purpose - Vampire would be better because of +2 DC to this school. I put some further thoughts on these builds in this thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/427478-Wizard-Some-thoughts-about-the-ultimate-Enchanter) if you're interested.

You realize that your DC with all druid spells is going to be absolute trash, right? -7 DC right off the bat because you cannot heighten to level 9, and a minimum of -2 more at level 20 because you surely put your level up stat points into INT. Then subtract whatever is leftover due to you not capping WIS. Not to mention a -17 to spell penetration on all of your druid spells, and a -3 to everything else. That is a very big hit just so you can (attempt to) charm what is arguably some of the weakest enemies in the game. I predict that you will be struggling just to land your druid spells even in over-level heroic normal content.

Also, Lich vs Vampire:

Vampire - Does not get an Enchant bonus over lich if improved shrouding is taken (and why would you not?) only +1 otherwise, not +2. Neg level on melee vorpal, +2 STR, and threat reduction, and +1 health per melee hit.
Lich - Same Enchant DC as vampire with improved shrouding, +3 Necro DC, +2 everything else (due to +4 INT). +4 to CON, +2 WIS, temp hp on damaged, +10 neg spellpower, extra negative energy damage on melee hits.

In other words, as far as DC is concerned Lich is superior to Vampire in every way.

Typically the rule with Necro forms is: If you want a melee/caster hybrid, go Wraith. For DC casting, 18 levels of Wizard is a minimum so that you can get Lich. Pure is recommended due to spell penetration unless you have past lives (and even then you need to be well geared), or you're just racing to 20 to TR.

Honestly, the only time you use Vampire form is between level 6 and 12, or you have a build that splashed less than 12 wizard levels.

[Lanhelin]

You realize that your DC with all druid spells is going to be absolute trash, right? -7 DC right off the bat because you cannot heighten to level 9, and a minimum of -2 more at level 20 because you surely put your level up stat points into INT. Then subtract whatever is leftover due to you not capping WIS. Not to mention a -17 to spell penetration on all of your druid spells, and a -3 to everything else. That is a very big hit just so you can (attempt to) charm what is arguably some of the weakest enemies in the game. I predict that you will be struggling just to land your druid spells even in over-level heroic normal content.

It's not the purpose to cast any other Druid spells than Charm and Hold. Animals and Vermin have very low Will saves, so a DC in the mid 20's would be enough. It's not necessary to cap Wis. Spell Pen on Druid spells is not relevant for this build. As mentioned in the other Thread I'd rather go Helf than WF, to compensate the lost 3 Spell Pen on Wiz spells.



Vampire - Does not get an Enchant bonus over lich if improved shrouding is taken (and why would you not?) only +1 otherwise, not +2. Neg level on melee vorpal, +2 STR, and threat reduction, and +1 health per melee hit.
Lich - Same Enchant DC as vampire with improved shrouding, +3 Necro DC, +2 everything else (due to +4 INT). +4 to CON, +2 WIS, temp hp on damaged, +10 neg spellpower, extra negative energy damage on melee hits.

Unfortunately there are not enough AP left (and the game doesn't allow it anyway) to take two Tier 5 Enhancements from different trees. I'd take the second spell school mastery enhancement and the secondary school mastery. Plus Arcane Supremacy, because even as an Enchanter sometimes a bit more dmg is nice. Going deep into Pale Master instead of Archmage is just a flavor thing, because there is no difference between both trees regarding Enchantment. Both give +3 DC (Improved Lich + 2 Int and two times spell focus + 2 Int), but going deep Archmage is cheaper regarding AP. The additional Vampire grants +2 DC for 11 AP only, on the other side if you additionally take the first spellfocus and the two Int enhancements from Archmage this would cost 24 AP. It'd be even cheaper to spend 22 AP in PM to get +3 DC, but I need the points elsewhere, eg. in the Helf tree to get max +5 Int, so I cannot see the big advantage going deep PM for this purpose.




Typically the rule with Necro forms is: If you want a melee/caster hybrid, go Wraith. For DC casting, 18 levels of Wizard is a minimum so that you can get Lich. Pure is recommended due to spell penetration unless you have past lives (and even then you need to be well geared), or you're just racing to 20 to TR.

Honestly, the only time you use Vampire form is between level 6 and 12, or you have a build that splashed less than 12 wizard levels.

I'm untypical. Believe it or not ;-)


Edit: There is one difference between deep Archmage and deep Pale Master regarding Enchantment: The PM +DC only applies to Int based spells (if you take the improved Lich), because it'd be gained all via Int, while the two Spell masteries in AM and the Vampire would increase the DC of the Druid spells too by +4.