Rune Arm DC's

[Panzermeyer]

So how exactly are Rune arm DC's determined?

And is there a way to see what the current DC is?

[redspecter23]

So how exactly are Rune arm DC's determined?

And is there a way to see what the current DC is?

At endgame for epic elite at least, I'm pretty sure it's just 5% success rate. They have to roll a 1 sometimes. It's just a shame so many runearms are reflex based and evadable.

[CThruTheEgo]

This is the formula reported on the wiki: (http://ddowiki.com/page/Rune_Arm)


10 + (Charge Tier + 1) + (INT modifier) + (Max Charge Tier - 1) + (Evocation Feat Bonuses)

Evocation item bonuses are not factored in.

This formula was tested and determined before epic destinies came out. My own casual observations (no actual testing) suggest that epic destiny abilities (i.e. draconic's precise casting and magister's evocation specialist) are also not factored in. When comparing reflex save based rune arms to my reflex save based spells, I noticed significantly more saves/evades against the rune arms than the spells, more than what would be expected if the only difference was the +2 dc from an item, and about what I would expect if the rune arm was also not getting the +5 from precise casting and evocation specialist. Again, this is based on casual observations only, so take it for what it's worth.

[Panzermeyer]

Evocation item bonuses are not factored in.

This formula was tested and determined before epic destinies came out. My own casual observations (no actual testing) suggest that epic destiny abilities (i.e. draconic's precise casting and magister's evocation specialist) are also not factored in. When comparing reflex save based rune arms to my reflex save based spells, I noticed significantly more saves/evades against the rune arms than the spells, more than what would be expected if the only difference was the +2 dc from an item, and about what I would expect if the rune arm was also not getting the +5 from precise casting and evocation specialist. Again, this is based on casual observations only, so take it for what it's worth.

That makes sense and jives with my experience. It would explain why I have such higher damage on Fortitude save Rune arms (Turmoil Within) then Reflex save rune arms (Arching Sky). As much as I would like to have an area of effect Rune Arm there are too many evasion mobs out that just save to high heaven, even though my DC's are higher enough that my TD lands a lot.

[CThruTheEgo]

That makes sense and jives with my experience. It would explain why I have such higher damage on Fortitude save Rune arms (Turmoil Within) then Reflex save rune arms (Arching Sky). As much as I would like to have an area of effect Rune Arm there are too many evasion mobs out that just save to high heaven, even though my DC's are higher enough that my TD lands a lot.

Yeah unfortunately reflex save rune arms haven't been an option at endgame since the level cap was raised past 20. It's basically acid or force: corruption of nature or archaic device.

When the spell power changes were made it was in the release notes that rune arms would receive a percentage of their respective spell power, though it has never been made clear what that percentage is for specific rune arms. Although this has not been tested either, casual observations of several forumites (myself included) suggest that the higher level a rune arm, the higher the percentage of spell power that applies to it (archaic device seems to do more damage than lucid dreams, for example); and that force rune arms overall receive less spell power than acid. Which makes an EE corruption of nature the optimal rune arm at endgame.

This has certainly fit my own experience. I used to be a big advocate of force but once I tried acid I never looked back. Archaic device isn't too far behind though and is still a viable option for endgame.

[Livmo]

Yeah unfortunately reflex save rune arms haven't been an option at endgame since the level cap was raised past 20. It's basically acid or force: corruption of nature or archaic device.

When the spell power changes were made it was in the release notes that rune arms would receive a percentage of their respective spell power, though it has never been made clear what that percentage is for specific rune arms. Although this has not been tested either, casual observations of several forumites (myself included) suggest that the higher level a rune arm, the higher the percentage of spell power that applies to it (archaic device seems to do more damage than lucid dreams, for example); and that force rune arms overall receive less spell power than acid. Which makes an EE corruption of nature the optimal rune arm at endgame.

This has certainly fit my own experience. I used to be a big advocate of force but once I tried acid I never looked back. Archaic device isn't too far behind though and is still a viable option for endgame.

This is the rune arm I use almost exclusively beyond L20 and its effective (still use Toven's, etc. from time to time depending on quest):

http://ddowiki.com/page/File:Corruption_of_Nature_%28Level_24%29.jpg

Its a tough farm. EE Outbreak it tough to finish , but fun.

[Panzermeyer]

This has certainly fit my own experience. I used to be a big advocate of force but once I tried acid I never looked back. Archaic device isn't too far behind though and is still a viable option for endgame.

Same here, I remained attached to the Lucid Dreams for a long time. Thought it was jiving with my (old) kinetic lore boosts and such. Then I tried out the Turmoil Within and was seeing an average of near double the numbers. Haven't looked back. Only use force when I am after something that is immune to acid.

[G_Lich]

Yeah unfortunately reflex save rune arms haven't been an option at endgame since the level cap was raised past 20. It's basically acid or force: corruption of nature or archaic device.

When the spell power changes were made it was in the release notes that rune arms would receive a percentage of their respective spell power, though it has never been made clear what that percentage is for specific rune arms. Although this has not been tested either, casual observations of several forumites (myself included) suggest that the higher level a rune arm, the higher the percentage of spell power that applies to it (archaic device seems to do more damage than lucid dreams, for example); and that force rune arms overall receive less spell power than acid. Which makes an EE corruption of nature the optimal rune arm at endgame.

This has certainly fit my own experience. I used to be a big advocate of force but once I tried acid I never looked back. Archaic device isn't too far behind though and is still a viable option for endgame.

Combined with the Potency (Should you choose to wear greenscale instead of blue) and synergy with Draconic Acid, it's a definite winner. It's all over artificer forums but everyone will tell you the "Shot" Types are best for damage, even with new evasion mechanics (which seem buggy considering I evade frost lances and I don't have evasion).

[Singular]

Same here, I remained attached to the Lucid Dreams for a long time. Thought it was jiving with my (old) kinetic lore boosts and such. Then I tried out the Turmoil Within and was seeing an average of near double the numbers. Haven't looked back. Only use force when I am after something that is immune to acid.

I must be the lone hold out here - I use Archaic Device for all the synergy with artie spells (and b/c force is a will save). It does something like 80% more damage than Lucid Dreams. I switched for a bit, b/c of the 6% force spell crit (which seems like a joke now, after Update 19) and my damage output vastly dropped. Quickly put Lucid back in the bank, moved back to Archaic, nice damage output again.

[thx.janus]

I must be the lone hold out here - I use Archaic Device for all the synergy with artie spells (and b/c force is a will save). It does something like 80% more damage than Lucid Dreams. I switched for a bit, b/c of the 6% force spell crit (which seems like a joke now, after Update 19) and my damage output vastly dropped. Quickly put Lucid back in the bank, moved back to Archaic, nice damage output again.

You are not alone! :)

I compared an EH Corruption of Nature with my Archaic Device and quickly dropped CoN again. Even though the damage per shot of CoN is higher, the targeting of the shots is heavily bugged imo. With the Archaic Device, every shot hits, except when the mob is too close (like stepping on my toes). With CoN, usually only two to three projectiles hit, the rest keeps spinning around the mob. And with the new 138 spellpower augments, the spellpower advantage of CoN vanished. Adding in the will save of Archaic device and the great synergy with Blade Barrier and Tactical Detonation makes the Archaic Device the top Runearm for Caster/Ranged Arties.

[cdbd3rd]

....With CoN, usually only two to three projectiles hit, the rest keeps spinning around the mob. ....


The way those are supposed to work - those are leftover shots that will hover/spin at the target site, and are fully capable of damaging any other mobs that move into them. But that's only supposed to happen if the the mob is killed.

Whether the most recent updates have changed how those shots bahave, I couldn't say.

[Panzermeyer]

You are not alone! :)

I compared an EH Corruption of Nature with my Archaic Device and quickly dropped CoN again. Even though the damage per shot of CoN is higher, the targeting of the shots is heavily bugged imo. With the Archaic Device, every shot hits, except when the mob is too close (like stepping on my toes). With CoN, usually only two to three projectiles hit, the rest keeps spinning around the mob. And with the new 138 spellpower augments, the spellpower advantage of CoN vanished. Adding in the will save of Archaic device and the great synergy with Blade Barrier and Tactical Detonation makes the Archaic Device the top Runearm for Caster/Ranged Arties.

I am enjoying the Artie too much, I plan on TRing my Rogue into a caster/ranged focused artie.

I am going to have to check out the synergy with the Archno tree and the Archaic Device. That does make a ton of sense to me about the damage output.

[thx.janus]

The way those are supposed to work - those are leftover shots that will hover/spin at the target site, and are fully capable of damaging any other mobs that move into them. But that's only supposed to happen if the the mob is killed.

Whether the most recent updates have changed how those shots bahave, I couldn't say.

My last test was pre U19, so I tested it again.
I fired 50 times with a fully charged EH Corruption of Nature against the training dummy from various angles and distances. I always hit 3 of 5 projectiles, the last two keep spinning around the dummy for a moment and disappear.

To keep this test fair, I did the same with the Archaic Device and noticed a similar problem. I don't see any force projectiles spinning around the dummy, but according to the combat log only 22 out of 50 times all of the five projectiles hit the dummy. Usually its four projectiles (45 out of 50 shots) and only sometimes (5 out of 50) three projectiles.
Because I don't see the remaining projectiles, I'm not sure if this is just a display/combat log issue or maybe even the same bug.

It would be great if someone could do the same test to verify my observations.

[CThruTheEgo]

You are not alone! :)

I compared an EH Corruption of Nature with my Archaic Device and quickly dropped CoN again. Even though the damage per shot of CoN is higher, the targeting of the shots is heavily bugged imo. With the Archaic Device, every shot hits, except when the mob is too close (like stepping on my toes). With CoN, usually only two to three projectiles hit, the rest keeps spinning around the mob. And with the new 138 spellpower augments, the spellpower advantage of CoN vanished. Adding in the will save of Archaic device and the great synergy with Blade Barrier and Tactical Detonation makes the Archaic Device the top Runearm for Caster/Ranged Arties.

I haven't played my arti much since U19 so maybe something has changed, but in my experience, even with the missed shots from Corruption, I still do at least as much damage as with Archaic Device.

And although Archaic Device might have synergy with blade barrier, tactical detonation, and prismatic strike, it does not have synergy with energy burst acid, which is better than all three of those imo. If you're a DC based arti (and even if you're not), energy burst is one of your strongest abilities, and there is no energy burst force. I still use blade barrier, but hardly use tactical detonation and prismatic strike anymore. Energy burst is just sick damage and its cheap. So I'd still go with Corruption of Nature for its synergy with energy burst.

Also, where are you slotting spell power 138? If it's going in the red slot on Needle, 7 average elemental damage per bolt is a lot to give up for another 20ish to spell power imo.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

I haven't played my arti much since U19 so maybe something has changed, but in my experience, even with the missed shots from Corruption, I still do at least as much damage as with Archaic Device.

And although Archaic Device might have synergy with blade barrier, tactical detonation, and prismatic strike, it does not have synergy with energy burst acid, which is better than all three of those imo. If you're a DC based arti (and even if you're not), energy burst is one of your strongest abilities, and there is no energy burst force. I still use blade barrier, but hardly use tactical detonation and prismatic strike anymore. Energy burst is just sick damage and its cheap. So I'd still go with Corruption of Nature for its synergy with energy burst.

Also, where are you slotting spell power 138? If it's going in the red slot on Needle, 7 average elemental damage per bolt is a lot to give up for another 20ish to spell power imo.

Why would you go with energy burst acid when there's enhancements for Electrical? Along with the Electrical SLA's, I have to question why you wouldn't go with energy burst electrical? Seems a bit like common sense to me...

[CThruTheEgo]

Why would you go with energy burst acid when there's enhancements for Electrical? Along with the Electrical SLA's, I have to question why you wouldn't go with energy burst electrical? Seems a bit like common sense to me...

What enhancements? You mean the 4% crit chance from arcanotechnician? 4% is not worth switching to energy burst electric because you would then need to slot electric spell power somewhere. That's the beauty of Corruption, it comes with spell power on it so you don't have to give up the red slot on Needle. Plus, if you're slotting electric you probably aren't slotting force, which lessens the value of Archaic Device. And there's no other rune arm worth mentioning for endgame beyond Corruption and Archaic, certainly not any of the electric ones. So why not use the energy burst that matches the highest damage rune arm?

The SLAs are garbage imo. I tried em and got rid of em. The damage they do is so little that they aren't worth stopping my other sources of damage to fit them into rotation. The only useful time to use them imo is when you've run out of spell points, and that almost never happens to me.

[Panzermeyer]

Why would you go with energy burst acid when there's enhancements for Electrical? Along with the Electrical SLA's, I have to question why you wouldn't go with energy burst electrical? Seems a bit like common sense to me...

Personally my arti is more invested in the Battle Engineer tree. But regardless my acid spell power is higher than my electrical. Currently I only have a +90 for both corrosion and electric.

[Panzermeyer]

My last test was pre U19, so I tested it again.
I fired 50 times with a fully charged EH Corruption of Nature against the training dummy from various angles and distances. I always hit 3 of 5 projectiles, the last two keep spinning around the dummy for a moment and disappear.

To keep this test fair, I did the same with the Archaic Device and noticed a similar problem. I don't see any force projectiles spinning around the dummy, but according to the combat log only 22 out of 50 times all of the five projectiles hit the dummy. Usually its four projectiles (45 out of 50 shots) and only sometimes (5 out of 50) three projectiles.
Because I don't see the remaining projectiles, I'm not sure if this is just a display/combat log issue or maybe even the same bug.

It would be great if someone could do the same test to verify my observations.

I have seen this problem with the training dummy as well.

Fortunately I have seen it less so with actual enemies in combat. It definitely appears when a target is killed early with the first or second shot, the rest will float around. But usually in normal combat the shots are much more successful in all of them hitting (provided they don't hit a wall or something)

[thx.janus]

I haven't played my arti much since U19 so maybe something has changed, but in my experience, even with the missed shots from Corruption, I still do at least as much damage as with Archaic Device.

In my test (50 fully charged shots with both runearms), archaic device did an average of 432 dmg (recalculated to 100 sp and non helpless) and corruption of nature did 364. Thats 18% more damage in favor of the archaic device.

And although Archaic Device might have synergy with blade barrier, tactical detonation, and prismatic strike, it does not have synergy with energy burst acid, which is better than all three of those imo. If you're a DC based arti (and even if you're not), energy burst is one of your strongest abilities, and there is no energy burst force. I still use blade barrier, but hardly use tactical detonation and prismatic strike anymore. Energy burst is just sick damage and its cheap. So I'd still go with Corruption of Nature for its synergy with energy burst.

I bet you that blade barrier is equivalent to energy burst in terms of damage, it just takes longer (but procs more shiradi fun). But I admit I haven't tested that.

Also, where are you slotting spell power 138? If it's going in the red slot on Needle, 7 average elemental damage per bolt is a lot to give up for another 20ish to spell power imo.
But that spellpower directly influences the runearm damage, which is a big part of an arty's damage output. I'm not sure whats more


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[Livmo]

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I'm not high enough level to test yet, but last time at end game I found my self only using Archaic, Corruption and Toven's. Mostly used the Corruption with my set-up. I'm back up to L18 so I cant wait to test.

You info was really helpful. TY for testing.

[Panzermeyer]

I bet you that blade barrier is equivalent to energy burst in terms of damage, it just takes longer (but procs more shiradi fun). But I admit I haven't tested that.

Well considering my energy burst does a minimum off about 1500 upwards of 5000, only costs 20 spell points, can be fired fairly frequently and doesn't require a bunch of kiting.

While my BB if they don't make their save averages about 500-600, costs more than double SP (for maximized) and the mobs need to be kited.

I would have to say the energy burst is definitely the way to go.

Main thing BB has going for it, is you don't need to have teir 4 twist or to be in the right destiny to fire it off.

[Livmo]

Well considering my energy burst does a minimum off about 1500 upwards of 5000, only costs 20 spell points, can be fired fairly frequently and doesn't require a bunch of kiting.

While my BB if they don't make their save averages about 500-600, costs more than double SP (for maximized) and the mobs need to be kited.

I would have to say the energy burst is definitely the way to go.

Main thing BB has going for it, is you don't need to have teir 4 twist or to be in the right destiny to fire it off.

I was using the Draconic ED to pump BB and TD and would buff acid with nehacements, but they took that out of the enhacements, so I'm not sure how I will set Livmo up post L20 this time around.

Any suggestions?

[CThruTheEgo]

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Thanks for doing some testing. What was your spell power and crit chance for each rune arm during the testing? Were they the same? Were you positioned so all five shots hit the dummy for each rune arm?

Panzermeyer summed up the advantages and disadvanteges of blade barrier vs energy burst, so I've got nothing to add about that.

Regarding slotting spellpower on Needle vs an elemental damage. Corruption of Nature has 114 acid on it already, so slotting 138 will only get you another 24. That's not huge and I'd personally rather have the extra 7 damage. If your using Archaic, slotting force gains you 58 spell power over the potency found on blue dragonscale. IIRC specific spell powers are only found on helms and rings outside of a weapon. I certainly wouldn't want to give up a dragon helm for force spell power and there's just too many good ring choices imo. So you're either slotting it or giving up another good item slot. It is worth it to slot if you're using Archaic, but I'd rather go with Corruption since it has the extra advantage of gear consolidation for very little cost. And for reasons already mentioned, I'd value energy burst over blade barrier. So imo, Corruption has better overall synergy than Archaic Device.

[CThruTheEgo]

I was using the Draconic ED to pump BB and TD and would buff acid with nehacements, but they took that out of the enhacements, so I'm not sure how I will set Livmo up post L20 this time around.

Any suggestions?

I've updated Dubbell O'Seven for the enhancement pass, so you check the link in my sig for my setup.

[thx.janus]

Thanks for doing some testing. What was your spell power and crit chance for each rune arm during the testing? Were they the same? Were you positioned so all five shots hit the dummy for each rune arm?


Force Spellpower was 316 (haven't slotted 138 yet, so 114 it is), force crit 18% (5 base, 4 enhancement, 9 blue dragon docent).
Acid Spellpower was 290 with an EH Corruption of Nature (114 Spellpower as well), crit chance 14% (same as above, minus enhancements).

Please note that the damage values I've given are calculated to 100 spellpower and a non-helpless target, all 5 shots added. The actual values I measured are 2047 for the Archaic Device and 1566 for EH Corruption of Nature. The difference between the two is that with CoN, I only hit 3 projectiles out of 5, every single time.

I also changed my position frequently to see if that would impact CoN's ability to hit the dummy, but it didn't. But from every position every projectile should have hit the dummy, there was no situation were single projectiles would have been blocked by the environment.

[CThruTheEgo]

Force Spellpower was 316 (haven't slotted 138 yet, so 114 it is), force crit 18% (5 base, 4 enhancement, 9 blue dragon docent).
Acid Spellpower was 290 with an EH Corruption of Nature (114 Spellpower as well), crit chance 14% (same as above, minus enhancements).

Please note that the damage values I've given are calculated to 100 spellpower and a non-helpless target, all 5 shots added. The actual values I measured are 2047 for the Archaic Device and 1566 for EH Corruption of Nature. The difference between the two is that with CoN, I only hit 3 projectiles out of 5, every single time.

I also changed my position frequently to see if that would impact CoN's ability to hit the dummy, but it didn't. But from every position every projectile should have hit the dummy, there was no situation were single projectiles would have been blocked by the environment.

Thanks for the info. I don't understand what you mean when you say "the damage values I've given are calculated to 100 spellpower." Can you please explain this?

From your description, your spell power and crit chance were already favoring Archaic. Also, you didn't get Corruption to hit fully, again favoring Archaic. So it doesn't sound like a fair test.

It's easy to get Corruption to land all five shots a majority of the time. For the training dummy, stand right in front of it. Not quite right next to it, because then you can get all five shots going past it, but about a foot away from it will land all five consistently. In live combat use the "jump cast" method. Just jump and shoot. The vertical angle seems to help the shots zero in on the target. I rarely have a problem with Corruption missing anymore, especially in combat. It happens occasionally, but not often. Based off of the numbers you provided, it sounds like Corruption is better dps with all five shots accounted for.

[thx.janus]

Thanks for the info. I don't understand what you mean when you say "the damage values I've given are calculated to 100 spellpower." Can you please explain this?

I took the damage result of every particle per shot, added them, and then divided by my spellpower in the respective element and by 1.5 to compensate the helpless state of the dummy. So, the formula was: Sum(particles 1 to 5)/[(Spellpower/100)*1.5]
That way, the given damage values of 432 and 364 are comparable.

From your description, your spell power and crit chance were already favoring Archaic. Also, you didn't get Corruption to hit fully, again favoring Archaic. So it doesn't sound like a fair test.

It was fair by using the above formula and by using both runearms from the same positions.

It's easy to get Corruption to land all five shots a majority of the time. For the training dummy, stand right in front of it. Not quite right next to it, because then you can get all five shots going past it, but about a foot away from it will land all five consistently. In live combat use the "jump cast" method. Just jump and shoot. The vertical angle seems to help the shots zero in on the target. I rarely have a problem with Corruption missing anymore, especially in combat. It happens occasionally, but not often. Based off of the numbers you provided, it sounds like Corruption is better dps with all five shots accounted for.
It's absolutely true that Corruption of Nature would provide more dps if all the projectiles would hit the dummy. And I verified that only against the dummy. I did not include enemy elemental resistances or the difference of will save vs. fortitude save.
From my experience in actual combat I still prefer Archaic over Corruption, because of reliability, enemy resistances, the save type and the synergies with artificer spells and enhancements. But thats only my personal experience and may be biased.


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[CThruTheEgo]

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I understand what you are trying to accomplish with that formula, but it doesn't work the way you think it does. You're essentially converting the data into a damage per spell power format. But we know that rune arms are affected by a percentage range of spellpower (50-80% per a release note, iirc) and it is not known by how much each individual rune arm is affected by what percentage of spell power. So applying any formula without taking this percentage into account doesn't provide any relevant information.

For example (purely hypothetical for illustration only): If 80% of spell power applies to Corruption, while only 50% applies to Archaic, then you'd be dividing by very different numbers. You can't simply divide by the raw spell power since that is not what is being applied to each.

Now if they both were using the same percentage of spell power, then it wouldn't matter and your formula would work. But we don't know what percentage each is using, so you cannot apply such a formula.

That said, you can still do a valid test by just using the raw damage numbers, but you would have to make other factors equal without applying conversion formulas. This would be easy enough to do. Just reset all enhancements, unequip all gear, kill the dummy before each trial to ensure a constant helpless state for all trials, and stand where I mentioned in my post above to ensure that all 5 shots hit for each rune arm on each discharge. When using Archaic Device, wear an impulse 114 item to account for the inherent 114 corrosion on Corruption. Then just average those numbers and compare.

Regarding elemental resistance and save types: Both of these are a non-factor imo. There are very few things which are resistant/immune to acid. Saves don't matter because in EE the rune arm save won't be high enough to bypass either fort or will, so they are both going to be saved against. And EH is easy enough that optimization doesn't really matter, you can do just about anything you want and still be successful in EH. And the only thing that enhancements offer force specced anymore is 4% crit chance.

[Livmo]

I've updated Dubbell O'Seven for the enhancement pass, so you check the link in my sig for my setup.

Nice set-up on your build.

I TR'ed the day or 2 b4 the pass. It seemed last life I was getting more dam out of Corruption than any of the other arms even when I didn't pump acid.

I'm on 34 point build and L18. I may just TR again at L20 and get 36 point build to add-in some of your options. Give or take I waffle allot between ranged and caster. I do keep my melees pure melee.

There is allot of great food for thought in this thread and in the Double build. Bookmarked.

[CThruTheEgo]

It seemed last life I was getting more dam out of Corruption than any of the other arms even when I didn't pump acid.

From what I've read/heard, this reflects most people's experience, which is why it is likely the case that Corruption uses a higher percentage of spell power than Archaic Device.