Natural Evolution, a simplified wolf dps build

[Tilomere]

del

[unbongwah]

I also made this build in response to the double strike bug, where offhand only goes off if main hand goes off. This makes double strike sort of an all-in or fold nature.
Has there been any word from the devs about whether or not the TWF feats applying to animal forms is WAI? My hunch is it's a bug that's gonna get nerfed, but I'm hoping I'm wrong...

Ranger Deepwood Stalker 26 points 2d6 Sneak, 75 pos spell power, Killer
I presume you already know this, but if not (or for those that don't), DWS Pos Spellpower is getting nerfed (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425546-Massive-Nerf-to-ranger-DwS-positive-energy).

[unbongwah]

Sure, just don't want you to be in for a rude shock when the nerf goes live. :eek:

The real issue is the TWF feats; I strongly suspect it's a bug that they apply to shapeshifted builds, because who would bother with Natural Fighting anymore if it isn't? If / when that gets fixed / nerfed, your build will be SOL. :(

[JasonJi72]

Sure, just don't want you to be in for a rude shock when the nerf goes live. :eek:



Thanks mate, I did not know that. This is going to kill my druid archer... I am a very sad Panda. :(

[unbongwah]

Thanks mate, I did not know that. This is going to kill my druid archer... I am a very sad Panda. :(
It looks like you can still get +30 Pos spellpower (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425546-Massive-Nerf-to-ranger-DwS-positive-energy?p=5104816&viewfull=1#post5104816) with a rgr 1 splash for 7 APs; still a huge nerf, but better than eliminating it entirely. And let's face it, 75 Spellpower for 6 APs was ridiculously OP compared to all the other Spellpower enhs, so a nerf was inevitable. At least as a druid, you can pick up some more from Season's Herald, right? It hurts actual rgrs more than rgr splashes, IMHO; a lot of people are unhappy the extra Pos Spellpower is all in higher tiers of DWS, which is still the least popular rgr tree.

[CThruTheEgo]

the double strike bug, where offhand only goes off if main hand goes off. This makes double strike sort of an all-in or fold nature. You need a ton of it to make it work on the offhand and get the full value out of it, otherwise go for harder hits without double strike.

According to one report from this thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/424082-Dev-Response-Please-Offhand-Doublestrike) offhand doublestrikes are proccing without mainhand doublestrikes. Based on the info I have gathered, I belive the bug is only applying to the tempest capstone. If you have any knowledge or information otherwise, please share. I've tried to get more info about this a number of times but, other than that one report, no one seems to know.

[unbongwah]

FYI, Cordovan confirmed (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/424332-TWF-feats-now-work-with-Wolf-and-Bear-forms-is-this-wai?p=5110235&viewfull=1#post5110235) what I suspected: TWF feats applying to animal forms is not WAI, unfortunately. :( File under "This is why we can't have nice things."

[awar1234]

GREETINGS! Just need to do 3 Druid lives..... Quick TR at 20.

Have:
3 fighter/ 3 monk/ 3 Pally/ 3 Rogue/ 3 ranger/ 3 Barb done. So not to worry about to hit/saves/HAMP/or HP.
All +3 tomes, Named handwraps, and GS Khopheses.
VIP for a few more months

This is the only thing must have.... 2 levels of rogue for 97% all traps and locks and doors. So level 1 rogue and usually level 11 when the +3 int tomes kicks in.

Just need a basic build. As you can see from the past lives i have mostly played melee. Willing to try caster Druid for one of the lives.....

hit me with you best shot for fast 1-20 tr, 1-20 tr, 1-20 tr.

[emptysands]

Unarmed base is 92 attacks/minute, wolf plus haste is 45% faster for 147 attacks/min* (See: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144-Vanshilar-s-Attack-Speed-Index-and-Formulae)
90% offhand adds 132 attacks/minute offhand
18% NF doublestrike + 15% SM/ISM/LSM + 8% item +5 ITWF = 46% double strike = 68 Attacks/min
10% offhand double strike ITWF = 13 attacks/min

Total attacks/min = 360 = 6 attacks/sec


Animal form base attack rate is the One-Handed Rate with a base 30% animation boost. The 1HF rate is basically the TWF rate, but without the off-hand attack. The 30% boost stacks with haste, etc, as it is a base boost. So at 20BAB the 1HF rate is 86.33 vs 94.12 for unarmed.

In part fatal harrier and the modified damage die and crit range are meant to make up for the 9% attack speed difference and extra TWF offhand attacks. Of course fatal harrier has been nerfed.

In a comparison [1] I did prior to the enhancement, the different in attacks for unarmed vs wolf was basically: 245.63 (haste boost/fatal harrier) vs 292.63 (haste/haste boost) for the two drunk metas at the time. With the former having a much higher base damage.

I've got no idea where the meta is at the moment, and I'm waiting until the enhancement settle before I look in depth at anything.


[1] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Am-tdsutQAFCdFhQdExfdVRNYkFrMTZXMTFFeXJKWFE&usp=sharing


Edit: Using a shield in animal form should also make you uncentered.

[Rhaphael]

To charge blitz it has all of the druid animal form innate attacks (these are not spells so can be used while raged), barb special attacks, FVS special attacks, as well as cleave, gc, supreme cleave, and the free tactical feats. So it will charge blitz in a minute. This is a strength based build, so start thinking lots and lots of strength.

I recall reading somewhere that even though animal form innate attacks are not spells, you still cannot "cast" them while raged. Has this been fixed? Did you test this out or is it purely theoretical?

[Marygold1]

Would it be posible to send me the druid druid build in one page to simplify it for me please ? I want to try it out by using the +20 lesser heart of wood cause i cant figure out how to make the drunk build work with the new enhancements. I /bow to your knowlege of mele and want to try this out.

[Skavenaps]

Level Order + Feats
1 Druid TWF (If Human: Maximize)
2 Monk Stunning Fist
3-8 Druid Maximize, Empower (If Human: Adept of Forms)
9-10 Druid ITWF
11 Monk Resilience
12-20 Druid IC:B, GTWF, Heighten,
21 Adept of Forms (If Human, Master of Forms)
24 Quicken
26 PTWF
27 Master of Forms (If Human: Bulwark)
28 Epic Mage Armor


the feat list sounds.. awfull??

Resilence? Yeah, more CD on spells!
Mage armor? Really? Pick something for melee pls.
No permahaste? if you cant cast it, you should pick
the TWF line was declared no WAI by a dev, so if it still works, anytime can stop doing.
No empower healing makes you coccon sad.

[Grailhawk]

Level Order + Feats
1 Druid TWF (If Human: Maximize)
2 Monk Stunning Fist
3-8 Druid Maximize, Empower (If Human: Adept of Forms)
9-10 Druid ITWF
11 Monk Resilience
12-20 Druid IC:B, GTWF, Heighten,
21 Adept of Forms (If Human, Master of Forms)
24 Quicken
26 PTWF
27 Master of Forms (If Human: Bulwark)
28 Epic Mage Armor


I question the lack of spell focus Evocation. I would say its better then Heighten, Bulwark, Resilience, or one of the Forms.

[Grailhawk]

Evo Focus is 1 DC. After you stun a mob to strip it of evasion and give it 0 dex (at least -5 reflex, probably closer to -15-20 reflex if wolf pet is any indication of mob stats) the 1 DC doesn't seem relevant anymore. Yes earthquake might not work as well and get as many mobs, but you have stun/AC/saves/evasion backup so you don't need it to. I don't feel that 1 spell DC is worthwhile for a feat on a hybrid druid that I want to do everything well. Same concept as to why I don't think NF should be taken regardless of whether or not TWF is removed from animal form. I'm building a druid for all forms and play styles. But for your goals and druid design, it very well might be. You might want a more specialized caster druid that relies less on melee, so it might fit what you want more than one of these feats.

Heighten I put in based on my Sorc experience. I like heighten, and while it doesn't seem fully relevant due to above, it will help land SLAs far more than 1 evo DC on mobs you can't stun. This was a choice to even the build out against all targets. Power attack would also work, but then you would lose saving throws. And I wanted everything at the same time. I'm getting a few arti-powered fighter lives now for tactical DCs, so I won't be able to get good play testing on this build for a bit. My personal preference would be to drop bulwark or one or both forms first as well to tweak the build in a direction if desired.

Spell focus Evocation is not 1 DC its the option to twist in another 5 DC when in content that you need it for Earthquake to put every thing on the ground, rather then just 50% of the mobs. A "Druid Druid" should be able to provide reliable good CC when needed not taking SF: Evocation is leaving too much on the table.

I understand wanting better saves, and the forms are very nice but having a meaningful Earthquake 100% of the time regardless of content difficulty is far better.

[garr71]

Race: Human, Dwarf, Warforged (Something that boosts stunning fist DC through tactics or wisdom)

Starting Stats 36 point, assumes +3 dex tome, adjust as you need.
Str 14
Dex 14 (want 17 after tome for TWF)
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 18 + all Level Ups (want a solid tome here as well, WF will be 16)
Chr 8

Level Order + Feats
1 Druid TWF (If Human: Maximize)
2 Monk Stunning Fist
3-8 Druid Maximize, Empower (If Human: Adept of Forms)
9-10 Druid ITWF
11 Monk Resilience
12-20 Druid IC:B, GTWF, Heighten,
21 Adept of Forms (If Human, Master of Forms)
24 Quicken
26 PTWF
27 Master of Forms (If Human: Bulwark)
28 Epic Mage Armor

Skills Balance, Spellcraft, Heal, Spot, Concentration

Epic Destiny LD is very good, with a bunch of action boosts, blitz, and whatever else you want. See post 16 for preparing blitz with druid wolf attacks if you want. However, any ED will work well once you grasp the concept of how beating on a pinata means you can make a powerful well rounded druid.

Twists: Sense Weakness +2, Legendary Tactics if not in LD

Enhancements: a mix from both trees and human tree that includes +5 wisdom and wisdom action surge if human. If you are not human, replace 1 wisdom and action surge wisdom from human with tactics DC. Otherwise, whatever floats your boat. More action boosts can't hurt if you are in LD. Get at least all the tier 4 and core SLAs to use max/empowered. Get essence of the shrike for easy blitz charging. Tier 5 whatever you want.

How to get working Stunning Fist DC: Wisdom as above, handwraps with dazing or stunning affix or antipodes (http://ddowiki.com/page/Antipode) from raider's box, exceptional combat mastery item (http://ddowiki.com/page/Combat_Mastery). Exceptional and insightful wisdom item post 20. Exceptional augment can be obtained from raider's tokens at twelve, insightful is on a lot of items. Otherwise a somewhat up to date wisdom item.

Some spell power. Sage's ring, or other wisdom/universal spell power combo item is ideal. Socket weapon with spell power to make it spell casting implement.

Some melee gear. Basically start hybrid, and adjust the druid to whatever you like better as you play it. Minimal would be an accuracy and deadly item.

Some defensive gear.

Aww wished i had asked for this as well when i +20LR my monk to this build hehehe i see i made mistakes, thanks for making this build its been very fun, currently level 19 i am a returning player and having a blast. I do have a question you say to use twf for the elemental forms, could you explain how playing in elemental form benefits using this (i have only played with wolf these time) do you still melee while in elemental form? this is what confuses me a bit.

For another question, do you go for tier 5 in storm's herald? is storm of vengance sla, word of balance, crown of summer worth it instead of nature warrior t5? (nature war t5 doesn't look as powerful to me)

Thanks in advance.

[unbongwah]

For another question, do you go for tier 5 in storm's herald? is storm of vengance sla, word of balance, crown of summer worth it instead of nature warrior t5?
IMHO, Storm of Vengeance SLA is the best - and possibly only - reason for going to druid 18, esp. if WIS-based. The 2-min. cooldown sucks, but it can be meta'ed for free. SoV + Earthquake + Ice Storm (w/Mantle of Icy Soul for debuff) + Sleet Storm (blinds them so vulnerable to SAs) mobs; Stunning Fist as often as possible; smack away until dead.

[garr71]

unbongwah has it down. You melee and stunning fist as often as possible in any form, because it enhances everything you do (and your wolf, and the rest of your party). The points you get in NW get you 2 Wisdom and a mix of other things for stunning fist.

I don't know what I would pick between NW T5 vs SH T5. I would probably mix it up just for fun. I'm getting a fighter past life now so it will be awhile. You get SoV SLA simply from being druid 18 and putting 31 points into the SH tree, so you can always have it regardless of what tree you get T5 in.

Ty for the answers, the other question was about something more generic that isnt quit clear for me, when you say TWF benefits elemental forms, how is that? am i supposed to melee while also casting in elemental forms? kinda like what i do in wolf with sla??

[unbongwah]

I don't know what I would pick between NW T5 vs SH T5.
If wolf-/bear-based, I would take Natural Adept for the spell cooldown reduction; if more caster-focused, I would want Word of Balance SLA plus other caster buffs in SH. But since the only thing you lose by resetting your enhs is plat, it's easy (if costly!) to experiment with AP loadouts.

Ty for the answers, the other question was about something more generic that isnt quit clear for me, when you say TWF benefits elemental forms, how is that? am i supposed to melee while also casting in elemental forms? kinda like what i do in wolf with sla??
Elemental form is just "regular humanoid with benefits:" i.e., +100% fort, +1 CL to your element's spells, etc. So anything which benefits melee normally will also work while in fire/water elem form.

[whosoever]

can you or someone post the enhancements and epic destiny choices please

[whosoever]

sorry I didn't see the new posts

[Devilteck]

Did anyone else notice he took TWF at level one with only a 14 dexterity? Is it my imagination or does TWF take 15 dex? Just FYI.

[unbongwah]

Did anyone else notice he took TWF at level one with only a 14 dexterity? Is it my imagination or does TWF take 15 dex? Just FYI.
You are correct and good catch. :) Easily fixed by moving the metamagic feats up a notch and pushing TWF to lvl 3 (presuming +3 DEX tome is taken before TRing). The other issue is that the +3 doesn't kick in until lvl 11, so you can't take ITWF @ lvl 9; again, move a metamagic to 9 so you can take IC:B/ITWF/GTWF at 12/15/18.

[Pilgrim1]

I would run this feet list on a 2monk/18 druid. It puts you 2 DC behind a maxed DC druid (however another 4 for not being in elemental form)

TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Stunning fist
Improved critical
precision

SF:evocation
maximize
empower
Highten
quicken
Empower healing
PL wizzy/GSF:evocation
26 - tactics
28 - PTWF

If you wanted to run a pure druid you could drop stunning fist and wizzy PL. Alternitivly you could run in elemental form, in which case IC would not be very useful to you (unless you wanted to use something other than handwraps). If you have a +5 con tome you could try to manage epic toughness by taking toughness at 26 and E.toughness at 27.

In the end your gonna have a huge pain in the ass gearing for both melee and caster spec. And in addition you will face the issues of opportunity cost. Your melee is not very useful while your spamming your SLA and other spells and likewise your spells are not doing much good to you if your meleeing and your SLA are off cooldown.

Lastly I would think about what content your looking to play in. If you want to manage a build like this in EE stormhorns you might need 3x fighter PL and 3x sorc PL for the Earthquake and tactics, but if all you want is to do EH you should be great.

Don't forget to use your blind spells, they rock! And good luck.

[unbongwah]

In the end your gonna have a huge pain in the ass gearing for both melee and caster spec.
Dunno about endgame, but the Cannith gear (http://ddowiki.com/page/Vaults_of_the_Artificers_loot) is great for leveling: Frozen Tunic + Wind Bracers + Fire Cloak not only cover your 3 major elements, but also add perma-Blur, fire absorption, enhanced ki, & Freezing Ice; Stalker ring provides seeker + exceptional SA + Manslayer + Ghostly (epic version only).

[the_laughing_god]

Race: Human, Dwarf, Warforged (Something that boosts stunning fist DC through tactics or wisdom)



I'm still fairly new to this game. Will a half-elf do for the version in post 22? Is the racial enhancement they have to improve dilettante abilities in T4 (+2 to tactics for a fighter dilettante, I believe) enough to be worthwhile in this context?

I've a half-elf druid I kinda threw together, no clear idea what I was doing. Need a build for that toon, and this looks interesting.

[isaacmattia]

I just fot the favor to lR into 32 point build , I mostly stay in ww form would also like to have a better understanding of how to build the epic destiny part of this build from scratch If someone has the time -thanks so much for all the help so far :)
ps really appreciate when you guys lay down the specifics of the build, It is so helpful in understanding.

[whosoever]

I just fot the favor to lR into 32 point build , I mostly stay in ww form would also like to have a better understanding of how to build the epic destiny part of this build from scratch If someone has the time -thanks so much for all the help so far :)
ps really appreciate when you guys lay down the specifics of the build, It is so helpful in understanding.

Anyone have suggestions for how to go about the epic destiny trees ?

[whosoever]

ok thanks much all time or till they change the game right :)




All of them work, with LD generally working the best for damage.

Try to get LD Tactics, Cocoon, and I guess Primal Shout for low costs twists while you max the trees out. After that, LD + Sense Weakness is all purpose goodness.

I've been away playing Teemo. I also finished 4 druid lives and don't see a way to improve the build so I haven't touched it. Been planning a BF FMP TWF or Shuriken MPR tank for next life. Waiting to see which draining weapon for end game I get first. I have all the EE loot I ever wanted and more, but a draining VII weapon I haven't even seen yet. It may not exist.

I honestly never intended an exact build and ED structure. I just wanted a more up to date method of approaching a mob. The build listed in post 22 was updated based on feedback after I made it and seems fairly solid to me probably for all time!

[Grailhawk]

Strength Breakdown (no ship or pots)
18 base
5 tome
11 items
5 primal shout
4 LD str
4 barb rage
7 leveling
4 Animal Growth
3 action boost human
9 Divine Might (14 start +4 tome +13 item -2 wolf )
1 Human
3 Power Rage
3 Action Boost
2 Profane
2 Alchemical (Fabricator's avg)
2 Warpriest

82 end str +36 mod

Looks like you counted action boost twice?



str +36dmg, +6 Fury, + 5 PA, + 2 Fang, +2 Rams, +8 Mornh,+3 Barb PA, + 8 Deadly Enhancemet + 5 LD Advancing +4 Planar Conflux, +5 PA, +9 Seeker (10 Mornh + 6 LD)[/]b + 2 Luck=> 1d10+83 dmg/hit = [B]100 dmg/hit

How are you getting +6 damage from Fury of the Wild inates and +5 from LD Tier 5 Advancing Blows at the same time?
You added Power Attack twice?
Are you trying to say that 16 Seeker turns in to 9 damage a hit with your crit profile?



Helpless multiplier 2.3, Crit profile multiplier 1.84 (Mornh), Blitz multiplier 3.5 Action Boost Haste/Damage multiplier 1.1 Black dragonplate multiplier 1.05 = 8.7 kdps with Mornh/Shield Feats.


Please explain how you derived 1.84 for your crit multiplier, and 1.1 for Action Boots?

17-20/x3 is 1.35 (0.75 + 0.20(3) = 1.35) This matches what you have for seaker 0.20(3)(16) = 9.6
17-20/x5 is 1.75 (0.75 + 0.20(5) = 1.75) If this is what you mean its off by 9 and doesn't match your seeker number 0.20(5)(16) = 16

[Grailhawk]

I am adding 3 damage from barb PA enhancement, and +5 damage from normal PA, so yes it is two sources of PA damage

So Power Attack is +8 but you have it listed as +13 you added the +5 twice unless you means two different things by +5 PA look at the bolded number in the quote theres also a +3 barb pa that is not bolded.



16 seeker has the same net effect as adding 10 damage a hit with my profile. See below.


With barb critical rage and IC:B feat, my wolf base critical threat is 14-20x3. LD will bring that up to 14-18x3, 19-20x4. (At lvl 20 I was using an axe though for 19-20x5).


Out of 19 rolls from 2-20, you will get a total of 35 hits worth of damage after crits. I have already removed 1s from the equation by removing them from hitting. 35 hits worth of damage due to crits / 19 rolls = 1.84 multiplier of damage due to crits.

Seeker will apply a total of 23 times out of 35 hits worth of damage or 2/3 the time. So 16 seeker is roughly equal to 10 damage. You don't confirm crits on a 1, so it is 5% less than 2/3, and should be 10, not 9.


So your crit profile is 14-18/x3 19-20/x5

assuming 95% accuracy; 25% of hits are x3 crits 10% are x5 crits and 60% are standard hits
Let x be damage done.
Let s be seeker
0.60x + 0.25(3x + 3s) + 0.10(5x + 5s) is average damage done per hit
0.75s + 0.50s = 1.25s how much damage seeker contributes per hit
So for your crit profile 16 seeker adds 20 damage a hit.

If you want to get more accurate and remove the 5% of crits that don't confirm you just do 0.95(20) = 19 still much grater then your 9/10 estimate.

Note: that we do have the same cirt multiplier for damage 1.25+0.60 = 1.85 ~ 1.84 just are methods of derivation are different and your sample size is not large enough to get precision to the second decimal. (if i understand how you derived this number).


How do you get 35 hits out of 19 rolls?

Assuming 80% off hand proc and 40% double strike I would say that
0.95(19*0.8) = 0.95(15.2) = 14.44
0.95(19*0.4) = 0.95(7.6) = 7.22
19 + 14.44 + 7.22 = 40.66

So that's 40 hits. If you crit on a 14-20 then 35% of these will be a crit 0.35(40) = 14 (since you want to remove crits that are not confirmed we get 0.95(14) = 13.3)
So 13 crits and 27 normal hits

I'm really lost on how you got to 35. please explain further?



Action boosts is a rough estimate. The estimate is too low for haste or damage action boosts, high for non-dps action boosts. Overall, this is the increase in damage due to being under action boosts that is separate from Combat Brute.


I like to work action boost differently. If you assume you have enough boosts to never run out then.
2/3(1.30x) + 1/3x
1.2x
Means that damage boost is +20% to your total damage per hit

Hast boost is the same just I prefer to use it on the attacks per minute so if you do 114 attacks per minute then hast boost raises it to 1.2(114) = 136.8



That was supposed to be madstone boots +2 strength, which I decided I liked in post 52 above. The math was right for madstone boots. My error.

The +6 Fury damage is from Furious Rage Enhancement, Ravager innate tier 0, which was changed from competence to fury type last patch. Sorry for confusion with Fury of Wild ED. Since you attack so fast, you stack this up to max very quickly.


Madstone boots may not be as good as described back in U5 thy were nerfed, to my knowledge they have not had the full 20% alacrity boost IIRC they are only giving a 15% boost and do not stack with haste, If you are seeing an attack speed boost it is most likely coming from bringing your BAB up to your level.

[Grailhawk]

I've already removed misses by reducing the attacks per second by 5% to end up with hits/second. So the remaining attacks are all 2-20.
That makes sense but then you loose me again with.



With a 14-18x3 19-20x4 Mornh crit profile, every 1 pre-crit swing damage will result in 35 damage out of 19 pre-crit swings worth of damage.
So the crit. multiplier for this model is 35/19 = 1.84.

What is a pre-crit swing?

Sounds to me like you are saying every non-crit you do 35 damage, and that you have 19 swings that are non-crit. I'm not sure how figuring out your damage per non-crit (35/19) is equal to your crit multiplier?

[Grailhawk]

I'm saying for every 19 hits, which represent every roll from 2-20, for every 1 base before crit swing damage, I will hit for 35 damage after crits are taken into account. So 19 hits of 1 base damage will end up doing 35 damage due to critical hits. 35/19 = 1.84 crit multiplier, or critical effects cause 1 base damage to deal 1.84 damage.


So 16 seeker that does 19 damage per hit after critical effects as you calculated is the same as 10 regular damage added in before critical multiplier of 1.84.


I get it now you are doing this.



Roll 01: 0
Roll 02: 1
Roll 03: 1
Roll 04: 1
Roll 05: 1
Roll 06: 1
Roll 07: 1
Roll 08: 1
Roll 09: 1
Roll 10: 1
Roll 11: 1
Roll 12: 1
Roll 13: 1
Roll 14: 3
Roll 15: 3
Roll 16: 3
Roll 17: 3
Roll 18: 3
Roll 19: 4
Roll 20: 4
Total: 35


That gets you your 35 now you divide by 19 and get 1.8421052631578947

This is the same as doing this
12/19 + 3(5/19) + 4(2/19) = 1.8421052631578947
0.631 + 3(0.263) + 4(0.105)

Notice how the way you are doing this raises you crit chance from 25% to 26% on the 14-18 and from 10% to 10.5% on the 19-20

What you should be doing is

0.65 + 3(0.25) + 4(10) = 1.8

Alternatively you can do 36/20 = 1.8 since you will remove the misses later when you calculate the APS - 5%

[Kielbasa]

The Axe of Famine (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Axe_of_Famine)is a really good weapon swap as well for clearing debuffs.

I'm going to get one of these and link it in party chat whenever someone asks for a restoration. I didn't even realize that axe existed. That looks like a great swap to weapon. Also your druid build intrigues me I'll have to try it some time in the future nice work.

[Nodoze]

So I fixed my build up to the Big Bad Wolf #2 above. ...
The major part of the problem is a lack of displacement due to barb rage. Blurry is 80% damage taken. Displacement is 50% damage taken. So enraged barbs take 160% of the damage a non-enraged character takes due to shroud displacement clickies (160% x 50% = 80%).

... The exact problem is that a raged barb in armor takes 182% of the damage of a naked non-raged character due to armor interfering with dodge too much and rage interfering with displacement clickies. If you aren't using displacement clickies, then it isn't too large a penalty. The game play of dropping rage every 1:30 to use displacement is just too rough, and I don't have enough rages to last though a 25 minute EE devil assault.
...I liked reading parts of the thread as I am not that familiar with druid and forms in melee and like the discussion on mechanics...

Would you be better off going back to max dodge with less heavy armor?

Have you considered trying a TR into an Elf with the racial Displacement from DragonMarks? The con hit is pretty negligable these days though you would need to swap 2 feats to pick up the DraonMark feat and the Extend feat so they get double duration (goes from ~2:47mins per use to ~5:36mins)? I am not sure if you have to drop rage to use the dragonmark but even if you do only having to do it once every 5:36 mins isn't too bad. You get 4 uses (or 5 with the Chimera helm) so that is ~22mins (~27.5mins) per rest/shrine.

Maybe see if you can try it on Lamina if you don't want to try it on live.

[GrantAnderson]

The Big Bad Wolf looks like a fun build to play. I primarily solo, though (or solo+hireling if there's need), and you mentioned PUGging - would you make many/any changes to the build for solo play? (And with the last few comments in the thread, would you go for dodge or armour?)

What's the reasoning behind the leveling order? (No wolf form until level 8, no winter wolf until 18) Is the plan just to get your carnifex (or similar) on for the first 7 levels?

How would you change it if TWF stopped working in animal form?

And unless I'm reading it wrong, the AP layout you give doesn't seem to work - you need to spend 13 AP in OS to get 3x Extend Rage, 3x Knockout (as Ear Smash is a prereq), and you need to spend 14 in FB to get Sprint Boost, 3x Supreme Cleave, 3x Extra Rage and 3x Power Rage. If you can't have all the nice things in that layout, what would get cut first?

[Nodoze]

... The solo ability to combine invis. dragon mark with shadow walk dragon mark and zip through quests solo would be amazing. Then when you get to boss you have a self healing/tanking/dps for surgical strikes. I am thinking mostly of ETRs though. I haven't tried it in heroics!It does work wonders and by going invisible while Shadow Walking you get free Displacement from Shadow Walking while you move +50% so you can save your real Displacements for when you want to engage... The main downsides are the visual effects that limit your field of view though you may be able to adjust monitor settings to compensate and you do need to test which healing methods mess up your Invs/Shadow-Walk when trying to avoid mobs...

[GrantAnderson]

Can you still use feats to get dragonmarks tier 2 and 3? I thought it was just AP now (12 to get the tier 3 mark).

Given that Favoured Soul gives better saves and more spell points, and also has the Warpriest enhancement tree, is there a reason not to use that in place of Cleric?

[Nodoze]

Can you still use feats to get dragonmarks tier 2 and 3? I thought it was just AP now (12 to get the tier 3 mark).

Given that Favoured Soul gives better saves and more spell points, and also has the Warpriest enhancement tree, is there a reason not to use that in place of Cleric?AFAIK it is one feat to open up DragonMarks and then AP to expand them. I only spent 1 feat total and the rest was AP... I didn't see other dragonmark feats but wasn't particularly looking...

[Blackheartox]

Yes you can get dragonmarks past tier 1 with feats or enhancements. I would rather spend feats though, to save enhancement points, since barb enhancements are far superior to their feat equivalents. Ear Smash for example, has no save, and makes anything helpless. Stunning blow has a save and only works on living targets.

Supreme Cleave has a 3 second cool down and uses TWF, which would require both 3 feats to get Great Cleave with its 5 second cooldown and 5 feats to get Whirlwhind with its 5 second cool down to match. (Normal cleave I don't use since it doesn't use TWF). Barb enhancements are really good, far better than feats IMO.

Cleric gives you plate, which if you aren't blitzing for dodge, is the go-to armor to use, since you don't have evasion. Plate has higher AC and PRR. Saves aren't that big a deal compared to PRR in EE melee.

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That being said, if you want what I think will be a really good build, I've been reverse adapting my build back into a TWF Cetus DPS style it came from to get two more fighter past lives. The Cetus build just doesn't have enough stuns for me, or the PRR I am used to playing with, so I adapted it as follows:

Tilo's Supreme BF Tactician (Past life build for druid tactical DC's, using druid stun-centered TWF style)

12 Fighter 4 Monk 4 Pali

15 Str
13 Dex (+4 tome here to end up at 17)
13 Con
8 Int
14 Wis
13 Char

Tactics bonuses
10 Base
6 LD
5 Exceptional Item
10 Stunning V Item
3 Fighter Tactics
3 Warforged Tactics
3 Past Life - Fighter
2 Epic Tactics
2 Fearsome Presence
14 Stunning Fist Levels

DC 44 Stunning Blow Base + 26 = 70 Stunning Blow DC
DC 58 Stunning Fist + 12 = 70 Stunning Fist DC
DC 34 Trip + 26 = 60 Trip DC
DC 38 Imp. Trip + 26 = 64 Imp. Trip DC

Str
15 + 7 level + 8 Psionic + 11 item + 9 DM + 5 tome + 5 LD +2 Kensai = 62 = +26

Wisdom 14 + 16 item + 4 tome = 34 = +12

Charisma 13 + 11 item + 4 tome = 28 = +9

Enh BF 20 Tactics, Scribing, Fearsome, Scribing
Kensai 21 Tactics, Power Surge,Stuffs
Paladin 9 Divine Might
Shintao 13 Deft Strikes/Iron Skin
NiS Shurikens 6
StD PRR, Defensive Stance 11

Heroic Feats (16 total)

3 Stunning Fist, Stunning Blow, Imp. Trip
2 Stance Upgrade
3 TWF
1 IC:B
3 Mental Toughness, Magical Training, Quicken
3 PA:CL:GC
1 Shuriken Expertise

Epic Feats
Haste, Epic DR, OC

Epic Dest. Feats PTWF, Tactics
Epic Destiny: Any

Stance: Mountain

Twists*: Tactics, Balanced Attacks, Sense Weakness if twists allow.

I figured, if you are going to do the insane investment for Stunning blow, why not add stunning fist and trips to it as well. It is just two gear slots for wisdom and two more feats. Then I figured, why stop there? It's not like more 'stuns' from Balanced Attacks could hurt. Play style, I want to stunning fist a mob, kill it, then stunning blow a mob, kill it, then stunning fist again, kill, then use trips to drop mobs until Balanced Attacks makes them helpless or stuns are back up. In groups, I'm expecting a triple chain quick kill at the start of every fight will be sufficient. I'm just too used to averaging a stun every 2-2.5 seconds to go back to not having them. Also I'm used to a bit more mana and had to debug the Archer's Focus out of the Cetus build to make a 100% bug-free build.

I would love a guinea pig to level this up and tell me what's missing out of it.

*If you will only be playing destinies with one of these twists already in them, then you could lower paladin to 2 and twist in turn undead charges, and take monk to 6 for shadow fade, but I like being able to bounce from destiny to destiny, the mana mental toughness allows, and DoF twist.


How do you plan to get both haste/epic dr as feats?
Blinding speed and epic dr are both lv 27 feats.
Mental toughnes? What for? Just get a bauble and your sp will be enough. You would be better off picking quicken as meta then mental toughnes as feat.

Next, shuriken expertise does apsolutely nothing on that build.
Shuri procs are dependent on dex score, without point blank, without precise shot, without 10 k, without quick draw, without any source of dshoot you should drop that feat and never even use shurikens as it makes apsolutely no sense.
Cetus-es build perfectly incoporates high defense via shadow fade /which you lack/ and all necessary feats for high burst ranged damage /which you dont have while maintaining much higher stuning blow dc /which is needed for ee wgu for example.
Your dcs are lackster, will work in eh, doubtfuly in ee.
You list 5 strenght from dreadnought.
Do you realy have spare ap for 5 tiers of strenght in tree?
It is a past life build, for eh /en.

Drop shuriken expertise at least, and never again say that having that 1 feat is a "ranged option".
You would be better off to pick a dwarven axe and throw it instead of shuris if you think that is a viable option.
I will assume you never played a ranged character or something with a good ranged burst option, theras your lack of knowledge on shurikens or ranged in general.

If you like the animal form/thrower bug, there is no reason to force that on non druid builds.

[Blackheartox]

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One question I do have is if anyone's tested the new single weapon fighting feats with druid form on test server? They work with THF, so they may work with TWF on a druid in animal form with just a one handed weapon equipped. Like a Celestia, which one could wield centered, so one might be able to shapeshift it and do stunning fist + stunning blow + TWF + OWF all with the same celstia.

I forsee this being insanely broken for druids, current implementaion of swf is incredibly broken.
30% alatricity /assuming stackable/ and 200% more stat damage vs 2handed that is only 150%.
You could basicaly make a shield/bastard sword build and pick dual focuses to even get aoe with this sillynes.
Well, we need to wait how they rework it, but as it currently is, it is incredibly broken and yea..

[Cetus]

-----------------------------------------------
One question I do have is if anyone's tested the new single weapon fighting feats with druid form on test server? They work with THF,

huh?

[Eth]

-----------------------------------------------
One question I do have is if anyone's tested the new single weapon fighting feats with druid form on test server?

They do. If it makes it to live servers that would be hilariously broken in their current form.

[Nayus]

If so, would mind keeping this build here for reference and maybe linking it in your new thread?

[Blackheartox]

So I had this really elegant SWF TWF build designed in my head a few weeks ago for FoTW with balanced attack knockdowns and adrenaline recharges on 19-20 super fast due to attack speed. It was going to be ... entertaining. I had some notes above on my thinking. I had to take it out of my head just to see if it would have even been possible. Here goes:

Druid Overlord

4 ranger 2 barb 2 Druid 3 Barb 9 Druid

1 SWF
2 TWF Autogrant
3 PA
6 ISWF Need BaB 6 Balance 4 trained ranks
9 ITWF Need Dex 17 Bab 6 (+2 tomes kicked in @ 7)
12 GTWF Need BaB 11 Dex 17
15 GSWF Need BaB 11 Balance 7
18 IC:B Need BaB 8
21 NF
24 NF#2
26 PSWF (TWF locks this out on live, can’t get on my bf tactical fighter build, unlisted prerequisite of GSWF?)
27 Haste
28 PTWF

Enhancements
4 FB extra rages
34 Rav Crit Rage
13 NW Fatal harrier
23 DWS Killer
6 Tempest Offhand

Balanced Attacks/Consecrate/Sacred Ground twisted in Fury

But apparently taking SWF and TWF at the same time is a bug, that the ranger first TWF autogrant feat creates. Apparently the feat list of what you can take is supposed to be limited by what you have already selected or have, and lock out options you don't have. So if you take SWF, TWF and THF are supposed to dissappear from the feat list. But since ranger autogrants TWF, if you already have SWF they both show up on the feat list and only THF is locked out.

SWF is only partially effective for wolf form. The haste is a stance bonus, but strangely stacks with beast stance. The damage bonus improves the weapon profile, which is not used in animal form. Honestly the build is a themed build but not as good as any of the Big Bad Wolf builds, since it is lacking the shield stats (wall of wood HAMP stacked with bracers) as well as shield deflection 30% elemental damage reduction, and the burst healing and restoration of Ameliorating Strikes so it doesn't survive well, and also lacks AoE CC from cleaves and on-hit CC or quickened sleet storm. See posts 64-65 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425933-Natural-Evolution-a-simplified-wolf-dps-build?p=5304171&viewfull=1#post5304171) as to necessity of AoE on hit CC and insufficiency of just Consecrate-Sacred ground for healing. But it would have been pokey pokey funzors, up until you ran across EE damage or HE traps and got chewed up yourself due to a lack of every single defensive stat, AoE CC, and healing/restoration.

Perfect single weapon focus ep destiny feat does not work in wolf or bear form. Aka the 19-20 vorpal is not working

[Nodoze]

Oh, I forgot to update my experience with the tactical build. It worked decently. I didn't have a dun'robar stunning ring or antipodes, so I was limited to weak cormyrian stunning handwraps. The main problem is that without a dun'robar stunning ring or antipodes, you can't use high end weapons and have high enough stunning DC to make it worthwhile. I hit Dun'Robar Matron 40x without seeing a ring, and it was just a past life so only did CITW 4x or so.

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Meh, whole build isn't that good anyways. I guess back to making unkillable TF shuriken builds. Strangely, there's really no penalty for making an unkillable character. You would think the penalty would be dps, but it really isn't when you account for AoE damage mechanics for say twisting energy burst, or being able use Pin by tanking hits, or better IPS usage due to not needing to kite in circles. Having played with others using the shuricannon and meteor swarm builds, I can say that outside of huge areas to kite like Twin Peaks, unkillable dps > theoretical max dps build that needs to kite.Have you posted any fully fleshed out builds?

[Nayus]

I've come to the conclusion after testing and playing a lot of other builds that I somehow got lucky by picking druid to learn how to deal melee dps.And that I got lucky for using this thread (and you) as my DPS model, I only started playing Epics (and went straight to Epic Elites) a few months ago, I'm having an incredible progress so far and much of it is thanks to you, I read all your walls-of-text and stopped to analyze your build decisions and philosophy in-depth, it was really helpful and I can now trace my own straight path to min-maxing.
It saddened me when I read you were putting your Druid on-hold to try some P2W pre-made build but I wish the best of luck to you =D

[IshmaylFading]

I know I'm necromancing this thread, but I just have a question. I've been looking everywhere for a pure druid (Druid 20) melee build that is actually good. I don't need it to be able to solo EE, I don't play that style, and I don't even get uber gear, but I would like to be able to run w/ a group or raid and not just immediately get vaporized by the first abishai that pops up. Any advice on a pure druid melee wolf build?

Thanks

[AzB]

Time to go new-old school!

20 Elf Druid (For displacement dragonmark) (assumes +3 tomes)

Str 16
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 9
Wis 16
Chr 8

Feats:
1 TWF
3 Maximize
6 Empower
9 ITWF
12 IC:B
15 GTWF
18 Quicken
21 Least Dragonmark of Shadow
24 Shield Deflection
26 PTWF
27 Haste
28 Forced Escape

Skills: Concentration, Heal, Spellcraft, Spot

ED: Primal Avatar for tougher pet, summons, dryad, and balanced attacks helpless status on knockdown, and attack bonus.

Enhancements, some of both trees, with more in what you feel you like. Displacement dragonmark in epics. I don't see a use for harper tree here.

Fill out some of both trees, and level with TWF and spending spell points on maximized/empowered SLAs when their timers are ready.

In epic levels take the first dragonmark feat for displacement, followed by shield deflection to greatly reduce incoming damage. You generally won't need this reduction in heroic settings with the amount of healing you have available. You will also need quicken by epic levels since mobs hitting for 100s makes concentration checks impossible. If you find yourself taking too much damage and need Shield Deflection or Displacement earlier based on your available gear, feat swap them in for Maximize/Empower as needed, then take maximize/empower again in epics. Also, if this isn't enough displacement, swap Empower for Extend.

Since this build doesn't have AoE on hit CC or face melting dps you will need to do things like quickened sleet storm + FoM in EE, with improved deception for bosses. I was able to solo with a melee hire thorugh the High Roads EE like this a year ago, but Stormhorns mobs have too much hp. Splitting damage between yourself, a wolf, a dryad elder, and a hireling fighter all buffed by primal avatar and healing with mass regen while fighting in a sleet storm = good times.

Is there no advantage to Natural fighting for this kind of build?

And would level ups be in str or wis? Or split?

[unbongwah]

Is there no advantage to Natural fighting for this kind of build?
Sure, the problem is: what feats would you drop to add it? Pure wolf druids are pretty feat-starved; not enough room for everything, so you pick what you think provides the most bang-for-the-buck, depending on your intended playstyle.

[AzB]

Sure, the problem is: what feats would you drop to add it? Pure wolf druids are pretty feat-starved; not enough room for everything, so you pick what you think provides the most bang-for-the-buck, depending on your intended playstyle.

I can drop haste as I have epic gear that provides almost the same benefit.

[unbongwah]

I can drop haste as I have epic gear that provides almost the same benefit.
Honestly, I'd rather add another metamagic, like Extend or Emp Heal; or Power Atk / Precision, as I noticed Tilomere's build has neither. I also probably would've gone human for the extra feat and dropped DM feat.

[mezzorco]

Add everything into strength for to-hit primary, and damage secondary.

I'm pretty ignorant about druids, so my question is because I would like to understand :)

Shouldn't ability raises go on Wisdom instead?
It is used for Takedown DC, Howl of Terror DC, and spell DCs in general. While adding +2 STR means +1 damage, adding +2 WIS could mean full spell effect.
Doesn't most wolf damage come from its spells?

I'm asking because I know very little about it :)

[unbongwah]

Shouldn't ability raises go on Wisdom instead?
It is used for Takedown DC, Howl of Terror DC, and spell DCs in general. While adding +2 STR means +1 damage, adding +2 WIS could mean full spell effect.
Doesn't most wolf damage come from its spells?
It depends on how you play. Tilomere's build is STR-based to maximize his melee DPS; my pure wolf build went WIS-based to amp its DCs. In fact, my melee DPS is rather poor compared to max-DPS wolf builds; I'm using wolf form mostly for the temp SPs from Essence of the Shrike to help power my spells. Proc Shrike, drop an Earthquake; proc Shrike, drop an Ice Storm; proc Shrike, Cold Breath; etc. The way I see it, I'm not a "real" melee build, I'm a furry caster who bites people. :cool: In the long run, I'm planning to go Div Crusader or Exalted Angel, but I'm still ED-grinding (Arcane Sphere right now).

[AzB]

I know I'm necromancing this thread, but I just have a question. I've been looking everywhere for a pure druid (Druid 20) melee build that is actually good. I don't need it to be able to solo EE, I don't play that style, and I don't even get uber gear, but I would like to be able to run w/ a group or raid and not just immediately get vaporized by the first abishai that pops up. Any advice on a pure druid melee wolf build?

Thanks

I've tried a couple lives with a pure druid melee build. It's suboptimal. While the melee damage is ok if you use all the twf feats, it's still not that great. I used a Devourer's Reaping for a weapon as it had 2 slots, 14% doublestrike, vorpal, and hemorrhaging. I didn't bother making any thunder forged because I didn't think it was worth the investment just to play through the martial EDs. I ended up using spells a good bit to supplement dps, and came to the conclusion that caster is just far superior for pure.

Another major issue is defense. I can get pretty much the same AC, reflex, and hp in wolf or caster form but don't have to get into the fray as a caster. Dodge is better in melee form, but not by much. The lack of defenses makes for almost constant healing during melee, which seriously affects dps and really isn't that much fun.

Whereas with a caster, I can generally stand back and cast and rarely take any damage while providing a whole lot more damage.

[supott]

The big bad wolf build and elf solo big bad wolf build are about to become very strong as non-exploit druid builds. They were already buffed defensively due to the PRR/MRR changes, but now that barbarian is getting buffed, druid is being buffed due to being able to be powered by barbarian.

Hello. Pls excuse random question, but what do u mean by druids being powered by barbarian? Are they going to allow Barb and Druid to multi-class?


With regards to AzB and pure Druid,
I am doing 17 Druid 2 Monk 1 fighter now, and it has been the strongest DPS build i've done so far. (Haven't tried everything yet, though.)
I'm currently at lvl 24 with TWF feats. The 2 Monk for flurry of blows and the 1 fighter for haste boost for me is worth more than anything the 20 druid gives. That's about a 60% attack speed boost from flurry and haste boost? Damage boost and doublestrike boosts also for a total of 27 boosts with ship buffs. Have all points in Wis except enough to get Overwhelming Crit (Pre update). Nice option for someone who wants the flexibility in also being a caster.

The 17 Druid looking back though I think was not needed as I don't ever use 9th lvl spells. 16 Druid 2 Fighter 2 Monk might also work and still be a caster.

[Skavenaps]

Hello. Pls excuse random question, but what do u mean by druids being powered by barbarian? Are they going to allow Barb and Druid to multi-class?


With regards to AzB and pure Druid,
I am doing 17 Druid 2 Monk 1 fighter now, and it has been the strongest DPS build i've done so far. (Haven't tried everything yet, though.)
I'm currently at lvl 24 with TWF feats. The 2 Monk for flurry of blows and the 1 fighter for haste boost for me is worth more than anything the 20 druid gives. That's about a 60% attack speed boost from flurry and haste boost? Damage boost and doublestrike boosts also for a total of 27 boosts with ship buffs. Have all points in Wis except enough to get Overwhelming Crit (Pre update). Nice option for someone who wants the flexibility in also being a caster.

The 17 Druid looking back though I think was not needed as I don't ever use 9th lvl spells. 16 Druid 2 Fighter 2 Monk might also work and still be a caster.

try with a chaotic neutral or true neutral druid... you will be surprised.

[adrian69]

The big bad wolf build and elf solo big bad wolf build are about to become very strong as non-exploit druid builds. They were already buffed defensively due to the PRR/MRR changes, but now that barbarian is getting buffed, druid is being buffed due to being able to be powered by barbarian.

Mr. Tilomere, you seem to have the most knowledgable post on melee druids around here. I am looking for a melee build that can play in epics, but I am also wanting to do something different, like 5-6 lvls of barb and maybe 4 ftr different. I'm trying to find the big bad wolf build with barbarian levels in it and may have missed it. Can you point me to it? Otherwise, I like melees who can still cast, and I'll take suggestions.

[mezzorco]

Alpha Strike and Supreme Cleave and all other enhancement based attacks, as well as most? ED attacks are equipped main hand weapon/offhand weapon or shield attacks under your current fighting style(s). So they will attack with the Jeweled Hammer or whatever is actually equipped in your main hand, and shield bash(some attacks, not all?) with off hand, while two weapon fighting style as a wolf( So 2 main hand attacks, which may be 2 main hand 2 handed attacks, or 2 main hand swf attacks). It's confusing, but TWF, SWF, THF, and Shield Bashing all sorta 'bleed' into animal form.

Maybe an illustration is clearer,. This is one of the reasons SWF + TWF + Orb exploit druids kill so fast, although I don't think many have caught on as to why yet, and think it is only the attack speed bleeding over.

I can't understand what you're trying to show...I can see three hits, are those from main hand + off hand proc + shield bash?