Thoughts on DWS?

[saco]

Wanted to get people's thoughts on DWS tree. Been playing a DWS/Tempus (no AA) full Ranger with the Elf dex to bows modifier. I like the ideal of the DWS but not so sure if it's worth it compared to an AA. Tier 4 and Tier 5 core traits seem a bit worthless to me, no limitation of point blank shot seems pretty moot when your in a group or how you can just wait a few secs for a mob to get to you within point blank range.

Does anyone know if when you merciful shot's 500 dmg can proc on additional shots like in manyshot or doubleshot or is it a one time deal.

[richieelias27]

Wanted to get people's thoughts on DWS tree. Been playing a DWS/Tempus (no AA) full Ranger with the Elf dex to bows modifier. I like the ideal of the DWS but not so sure if it's worth it compared to an AA. Tier 4 and Tier 5 core traits seem a bit worthless to me, no limitation of point blank shot seems pretty moot when your in a group or how you can just wait a few secs for a mob to get to you within point blank range.

Does anyone know if when you merciful shot's 500 dmg can proc on additional shots like in manyshot or doubleshot or is it a one time deal.

What is stopping you from cherry-picking from both? They have great synergy...

[saco]

What is stopping you from cherry-picking from both? They have great synergy...

Couldn't with Elf enhancements for dex dmg to bow, maxed out DWS, and picking up some Tempus stuff... mainly the mobility/dodge stuff with tier 3 of the core traits. Curious to know what others take on DWS is.

[HatsuharuZ]

My take is that it's useful to splash into, and even splash deeply into, but it's not something that you want to put ALL of your points into. You'll be a very sad ranger if you only do Deepwood sniper.

[mna]

My take is that it's useful to splash into, and even splash deeply into, but it's not something that you want to put ALL of your points into. You'll be a very sad ranger if you only do Deepwood sniper.

Well, to me it looks like DWS might be better than AA if you're dex-based and not an elf, along with Tempest. Say, halfling... ("ranged" includes thrown, right? AA don't imbue those, nor bolts.)


And also for rogue and/or artificer multiclass builds, maybe other multiclasses too (and there you won't get the last cores anyway, so those being sort of meh isn't a problem).

[Chai]

If youre not a monkcher with 10k stars, the DWS line is better. You make up a decent portion of the damage disparity by hitting alot harder with the less arrows youre shooting. My first life pure ranger hits favored enemies for about 140 base per shot in DWS, with the second number being in the high 30s low 40s for SA, since Im in PBS/SA range anywhere on the map. This is of course with a radiance bow, after I use the ability that allows me to fire one shot with automatic crit threat as an opener, which blinds the mob...

I cant imagine what those numbers will look like with pinyon. I dont have it on this toon yet.

[Grailhawk]

Tempest + AA is the (IMO) the weakest set up for a Ranger the two trees have little synergy one is focused on TWF the other archery.

I understand that Slayer arrow + 100% off hand proc is tempting but I would counter that a Tempest Stalker using Sniper Shot is a better melee toon do to the added Sneak attack and possible FE damage, which makes up for the loss of the arrow imbued. Similarly a AA Stalker using Slayer Arrow, Sniper Shot, and Aimed Shot is a better Archer who still has respectable melee do to the sneak attack and possible FE Damage.

Basically the trees are set up so that XXX Stalker is a better specialist then a Tempest AA and a better hybrid.

[JasonJi72]

I had a level 20 halfling that had been a mule character since before MOTU, and recently made him into a pure Ranger. The character has basic gear and no destinies to speak of, so it is more of a flavor / testing build atm.

I do like the Sniper though. I started off making him a full Tempest with Sniper backing, but found the tier 5 tempest abilities to be buggy and too much of a hassle to keep up with due to the long cooldowns.

Currently, I am trying out a Sniper 2wf/archer build with Tempest/AA support. Perhaps I will try an archer version, but I actually like the concept of decent sneak and favored enemy damage on this character.

It seems to me that a Sniper is a good way to mix melee and archery on a pure ranger, especially if you want to save your sp for self healing. ofc I am still testing lol.

Cya around the playground! :)

[xjac]

Why do you want to wait for mobs to get close when you can just kill them from afar?

Isn't the ability to kill monster from a range the reason why you picked archery?

[sephiroth1084]

If youre not a monkcher with 10k stars, the DWS line is better. You make up a decent portion of the damage disparity by hitting alot harder with the less arrows youre shooting. My first life pure ranger hits favored enemies for about 140 base per shot in DWS, with the second number being in the high 30s low 40s for SA, since Im in PBS/SA range anywhere on the map. This is of course with a radiance bow, after I use the ability that allows me to fire one shot with automatic crit threat as an opener, which blinds the mob...

I cant imagine what those numbers will look like with pinyon. I dont have it on this toon yet.
Why do you feel DWS is better for a non-monkcher (presumably implying that AA is better for a monkcher) as a focus? Additional procs over a two-minute period for the imbues? +5 damage every shot, multiplied on crits from Heavy Draw seems better to me than a lot of the AA stuff as far as damage goes. Obviously you can mix and match, and Slaying Arrows can result in a LOT of extra damage on a Manyshot (particularly with Adrenaline), but...

[Emerge2012]

Why do you feel DWS is better for a non-monkcher (presumably implying that AA is better for a monkcher) as a focus? Additional procs over a two-minute period for the imbues? +5 damage every shot, multiplied on crits from Heavy Draw seems better to me than a lot of the AA stuff as far as damage goes. Obviously you can mix and match, and Slaying Arrows can result in a LOT of extra damage on a Manyshot (particularly with Adrenaline), but...

I agree with this for the most part.

Sniper shot/heavy draw together can nearly equal a slaying arrow on adrenalin and you get to do it once every 6 seconds. Add in always being in PBS/sneak range and you've got yourself a serious damager. Enhancement points can be an issue obviously but I'd probably take 2 max'd out arrows from AA tier 2 just for when you're manyshotting a boss. The fire arrow and the debuffer actually, they're 3[w] and 2[w] and on top of the already extra 2[w] you're getting from PBS and Combat Archery add up fast.

The problem for me lies with going elf. Dex to damage is really nice and all but the elf tree requires a lot of points put into it (22 I believe) just to get that. IMO elf is really only the better choice if you have an extra feat to blow and want displacement from the dragon mark, which is great btw. But you're probably (definitely) better off taking 3+ monk levels to get the light monk attacks and dex to damage from 3rd core ninja spy. But of course there's the argument where Overwhelming Crit might make that not so attractive.

But what'll really trip your trigger is when you realize that 12wiz/6ranger/2ftr is can be had to get 35% incorporeal, the good bow feats, 90% offhand, self healing aura, displacement, near max dodge, and do 1d6 con damage on melee crits.

[Inoukchuk]

Personally I find the DeS tier 5s and capstone slightly more appealing (on paper, haven't played it) than the AA tier 5s/cap, but only my a razor thin margin. Overall I think they did a really nice job balancing the 3 ranger trees, so much so that its a) tempting to make a pure ranger for EITHER ranged or melee b) great to splash ranger c) all three trees offer compliments to the others and are playable as a primary tree.

Does anyone know the cool down on Head Shot? wiki doesn't seem to mention one.

[sephiroth1084]

Personally I find the DeS tier 5s and capstone slightly more appealing (on paper, haven't played it) than the AA tier 5s/cap, but only my a razor thin margin. Overall I think they did a really nice job balancing the 3 ranger trees, so much so that its a) tempting to make a pure ranger for EITHER ranged or melee b) great to splash ranger c) all three trees offer compliments to the others and are playable as a primary tree.

Does anyone know the cool down on Head Shot? wiki doesn't seem to mention one.Not sure exactly, but I think it's 30 seconds-ish.

[Archangel_666]

Personally I find the DeS tier 5s and capstone slightly more appealing (on paper, haven't played it) than the AA tier 5s/cap, but only my a razor thin margin. Overall I think they did a really nice job balancing the 3 ranger trees, so much so that its a) tempting to make a pure ranger for EITHER ranged or melee b) great to splash ranger c) all three trees offer compliments to the others and are playable as a primary tree.

Does anyone know the cool down on Head Shot? wiki doesn't seem to mention one.

I'd hold off on making a Pure Ranger until after the next patch if I were you.

You may find you have a different opinion.

[saco]

Not sure exactly, but I think it's 30 seconds-ish.

No it's a min cooldown. For just a crit I feel that's a bit underwleaming with the extensive cooldown. Especially since you have to spend 4 AP Aimed Shot (somewhat useful with FotW Adrenalines) and appears to be a worthless Leg Shot.

Perhaps good for stuff that procs on crit but what items warrent that, and once every min just seems a bit too excessive for just a crit on a low crit profile weapon. I'm thinking of skipping that entire line and spend those 6 APs somewhere else to be more useful.

[sephiroth1084]

No it's a min cooldown. For just a crit I feel that's a bit underwleaming with the extensive cooldown. Especially since you have to spend 4 AP Aimed Shot (somewhat useful with FotW Adrenalines) and appears to be a worthless Leg Shot.

Perhaps good for stuff that procs on crit but what items warrent that, and once every min just seems a bit too excessive for just a crit on a low crit profile weapon. I'm thinking of skipping that entire line and spend those 6 APs somewhere else to be more useful.
Yeah, a minute sounds more likely. I'd swapped to AA as my focus a few days before this came up, so I just recalled that it was a long cooldown. Definitely too long, especially given that Slaying Arrows are at 20 seconds. The auto-crit can be nice for some things (like blinding a whole line of mobs with a Radiance weapon), but it's definitely on the weaker/too expensive side.

I like Aimed Shot for use with Fury when Slayers are timered, and for those moments when I'm using Archer's Focus to ramp that up quickly.

I've really enjoyed using Leg Shot. Why do you think it looks worthless? It works on a lot of things (though not everything), and has saved my bacon (and my party's) on several occasions. If I'm solo, I use it to keep stuff from ever getting near me, either on the approach, or kiting. If I'm in a group, I just back away slowly, staying just outside of melee range so my teammates don't feel put out chasing it.

[saco]

Yeah, a minute sounds more likely. I'd swapped to AA as my focus a few days before this came up, so I just recalled that it was a long cooldown. Definitely too long, especially given that Slaying Arrows are at 20 seconds. The auto-crit can be nice for some things (like blinding a whole line of mobs with a Radiance weapon), but it's definitely on the weaker/too expensive side.

I like Aimed Shot for use with Fury when Slayers are timered, and for those moments when I'm using Archer's Focus to ramp that up quickly.

I've really enjoyed using Leg Shot. Why do you think it looks worthless? It works on a lot of things (though not everything), and has saved my bacon (and my party's) on several occasions. If I'm solo, I use it to keep stuff from ever getting near me, either on the approach, or kiting. If I'm in a group, I just back away slowly, staying just outside of melee range so my teammates don't feel put out chasing it.

SC ED has pinned shot that has the same effect and causes a mob to be helpless. I never run from mobs so why I think it's pretty worthless that only works in very situational situations, and really if a mob is ontop of you then swapping to melee is a lot more effective than kiting. I despise kiting. Not to mention it's very counter-intuitive to what Turbine is trying to make archers... that of standing still ones. Stand Your Ground, Hiding in the Weeds, Archer Focus all attest to this imo.

I think there should be something else added to Leg Shot to make it more attractive, just a slowing effect doesn't suffice and certainly not for 2 AP. That whole enhancement line is very underwhelming, the Aimed Shot>Leg Shot>Head Shot. At least Aimed Shot is the first tier so one can easily snag the only useful one.

Well if I don't like it I can just skip that line at any rate.

[Inoukchuk]

I'd hold off on making a Pure Ranger until after the next patch if I were you.

You may find you have a different opinion.

Why's that? Are the coming out swinging the nerf bat?

I'll be playing a Ginsu next life anyway I think, that or a rogue mix, haven't 100% decided yet.

[Archangel_666]

Why's that? Are the coming out swinging the nerf bat?

I'll be playing a Ginsu next life anyway I think, that or a rogue mix, haven't 100% decided yet.

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/7756/5ht6.jpg

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http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/3746/swpc.jpg

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http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9241/v7ay.jpg

In short: For any Ranger that doesn't go full on DWS, and wants to be able to self heal. Turbine's response is "Sucks to be you".

[CeltEireson]

SC ED has pinned shot that has the same effect and causes a mob to be helpless. I never run from mobs so why I think it's pretty worthless that only works in very situational situations, and really if a mob is ontop of you then swapping to melee is a lot more effective than kiting. I despise kiting. Not to mention it's very counter-intuitive to what Turbine is trying to make archers... that of standing still ones. Stand Your Ground, Hiding in the Weeds, Archer Focus all attest to this imo.

I think there should be something else added to Leg Shot to make it more attractive, just a slowing effect doesn't suffice and certainly not for 2 AP. That whole enhancement line is very underwhelming, the Aimed Shot>Leg Shot>Head Shot. At least Aimed Shot is the first tier so one can easily snag the only useful one.

Well if I don't like it I can just skip that line at any rate.

I think head shot is reasonable though would prefer a shorter cooldown, maybe 30 secs - guaranteed critical can be useful sometimes - blinding for instance as someone has pointed out, or for some other special effects (though given the changes they made to random loot your only chance at a blinding weapon is Shroud now), plus I would assume it would work with many shot and would apply to all four arrows? so while many shot was active I assume you could cycle through the various special shots to up your damage considerably - head shot, sniper shot, aimed shot and merciful shot. Though lot of button mashing involved but whats new.

Of course I may be talking out of my hat as usual, last life my ranger was mainly AA which was nice (the numbers coming up when you combined fury with manyshot and slaying arrows were rather large), this life he'll be mainly DWS just to try it out, but he's only level 10 currently.

[CeltEireson]

The problem for me lies with going elf. Dex to damage is really nice and all but the elf tree requires a lot of points put into it (22 I believe) just to get that. IMO elf is really only the better choice if you have an extra feat to blow and want displacement from the dragon mark, which is great btw. But you're probably (definitely) better off taking 3+ monk levels to get the light monk attacks and dex to damage from 3rd core ninja spy. But of course there's the argument where Overwhelming Crit might make that not so attractive.


You can get away with investing 18 - need min of 15 to get to highest tier, 2 action points needed for the top level of weapon training and then one for grace which uses dex for damage, but if youre going that far youd probably also invest in skill which gives 3% dodge, 3% double strike/shot and bypass 3% dodge on enemies.
It is a lot to invest but unlike most other enhancement trees it benefits both your ranged and melee - aside from any other enchancements you choose you get +4 to hit/damage with both longbow and rapier/longsword, plus the grace affects damage for both longbow and rapier/longsword so it is a useful tree for rangers, its just that there are a lot of other nice things in the various ranger trees ;)

[saco]

I think head shot is reasonable though would prefer a shorter cooldown, maybe 30 secs - guaranteed critical can be useful sometimes - blinding for instance as someone has pointed out, or for some other special effects (though given the changes they made to random loot your only chance at a blinding weapon is Shroud now), plus I would assume it would work with many shot and would apply to all four arrows? so while many shot was active I assume you could cycle through the various special shots to up your damage considerably - head shot, sniper shot, aimed shot and merciful shot. Though lot of button mashing involved but whats new.

Of course I may be talking out of my hat as usual, last life my ranger was mainly AA which was nice (the numbers coming up when you combined fury with manyshot and slaying arrows were rather large), this life he'll be mainly DWS just to try it out, but he's only level 10 currently.

But is blind really all that useful when you got Sniper Shot that gives you a bluff proc? I think it needs a shorter cooldown plus an increased modifier. But yes it works with manyshot.

A min cooldown is way to excessiver especially when you have slaying arrow that does compareable dmg and only on a 20 sec cooldown. I would say Head Shot needs at least a 20 sec cooldown.

[saco]

You can get away with investing 18 - need min of 15 to get to highest tier, 2 action points needed for the top level of weapon training and then one for grace which uses dex for damage, but if youre going that far youd probably also invest in skill which gives 3% dodge, 3% double strike/shot and bypass 3% dodge on enemies.
It is a lot to invest but unlike most other enhancement trees it benefits both your ranged and melee - aside from any other enchancements you choose you get +4 to hit/damage with both longbow and rapier/longsword, plus the grace affects damage for both longbow and rapier/longsword so it is a useful tree for rangers, its just that there are a lot of other nice things in the various ranger trees ;)

Problem though is that you need an extra feat for that melee combo as you to-hit takes a dive since it's str based. And that's only for rapiers with weapon finesse, longwords you can never use your dex modifier for to-hit that I know of.

As a full Ranger with emp healing for that self healing, archer feats, mobility to increase dodge cap I'm finding it really hard to get the weapon finesse feat and have to give up an epic feat for it and question is it even worth it. I wonder if it's just easier to go str based and that increased AC from increased Dex is pretty much worthless at higher level content.

[CeltEireson]

Problem though is that you need an extra feat for that melee combo as you to-hit takes a dive since it's str based. And that's only for rapiers with weapon finesse, longwords you can never use your dex modifier for to-hit that I know of.

As a full Ranger with emp healing for that self healing, archer feats, mobility to increase dodge cap I'm finding it really hard to get the weapon finesse feat and have to give up an epic feat for it and question is it even worth it. I wonder if it's just easier to go str based and that increased AC from increased Dex is pretty much worthless at higher level content.

Its not just the AC, though i'd agree that on EE its probably fairly difficult for a ranger to get a high enough AC to make much difference, but it the higher dex helps with the evasion - evasion is not a lot of use unless you have sufficiently good reflex saves to make the save in the first place which if you are pumping all your points into str may be difficult, but yeah rangers don't have a lot of flexibility with feats.

[Chai]

Why do you feel DWS is better for a non-monkcher (presumably implying that AA is better for a monkcher) as a focus? Additional procs over a two-minute period for the imbues? +5 damage every shot, multiplied on crits from Heavy Draw seems better to me than a lot of the AA stuff as far as damage goes. Obviously you can mix and match, and Slaying Arrows can result in a LOT of extra damage on a Manyshot (particularly with Adrenaline), but...

The imbues dont stack. You get 1 core +1 enhancement imbue active at any given time. Alot of the enhancements in DWS are active all the time so you dont have to choose between them. Being in PBS/SA range 100% of the time increases damage by 2[W] and whatever youre SA number is. My SA damage is usually in the 30s. I can be all the way accross the zone and get these numbers.

Youre right, they can mix and match, but can only have 1 set of T5. Do you want slayer arrows of destruction -or- heavy draw + 2[w] at a distance + 10 more increments of archers focus. For single target DPS, DWS hits harder and just as fast on a pure ranger. This changes for a monk archer who fires multiple arrows more often.

[sephiroth1084]

The imbues dont stack. You get 1 core +1 enhancement imbue active at any given time. Alot of the enhancements in DWS are active all the time so you dont have to choose between them. Being in PBS/SA range 100% of the time increases damage by 2[W] and whatever youre SA number is. My SA damage is usually in the 30s. I can be all the way accross the zone and get these numbers.

Youre right, they can mix and match, but can only have 1 set of T5. Do you want slayer arrows of destruction -or- heavy draw + 2[w] at a distance + 10 more increments of archers focus. For single target DPS, DWS hits harder and just as fast on a pure ranger. This changes for a monk archer who fires multiple arrows more often.

Yeah, I've come around on this in the last week or so, as I swapped to the AA focus and have to admit that Slayer Arrows trump the DWS tier 5 stuff. I didn't invest enough in the AA tree to get to Improved Elemental Arrows, mostly because that's a lot of AP spent on stuff that isn't active most of the time. Although, I think Improved Shock Arrows' 20% Vulnerability might be worth the AP investiture.