Does Force Spellpower affect Wolf/Bear form attack damage?

[Failedlegend]

So since for some odd reason the devs decided to make the physical attacks of bear and wolf form (ie. Roar, Shred or Maul) which causes it to be blocked by raging, anti-magic cones and of course require spell points. So since their considered spells and most do untyped damage than its logical to assume that like say blade barrier force spellpower, crit etc. should affect the damage. Also if these are spell why do no Meta's affect them?

Has anyone tried this...how are these abilities supposed to work?

Either they are spells and should be treated as such with spellpower boosting damage, metamagics,et.c OR their not spells and should be auto-granted feats (at relevant druid level) that work similar to abilities like cleave and should not be blocked by stuff like rage.

[Archangel_666]

Logic has no place in this discussion.

They work the way they do simply due to DM Fiat.

To answer your question though, yes I've tested it before and no, it doesn't work.

Nothing boosts the attacks.

[Failedlegend]

Logic has no place in this discussion.

They work the way they do simply due to DM Fiat.

To answer your question though, yes I've tested it before and no, it doesn't work.

Nothing boosts the attacks.

I'd like to know their reasoning behind this

- Was it laziness making them spells was just easier

- Is it actually a bug and for spellpower SHOULD affect them

- Was it an oversight that no one thought they could work similar to cleave or stunning blow (cooldowns)

- Did they think giving druids non-spell physical abilities was OP somehow (note how few people play druids right now)

- Something else?

[Charononus]

Yes it should be changed but from what I remember reading;

They did it to fill out the spell lists
It's all wai
It's not going to change

That said you can boost the damage of a wolf form up pretty high but it involves a deep monk splash to do so.

[Failedlegend]

They did it to fill out the spell lists

Thats a dumb reason...their not actually spells so the actual spellcaster druids don't care



It's all wai
It's not going to change

It better not be and it better change as the shapeshifting is a BIG part of the druid class and currently its fairly useless. IMO Druids are a failed class right now especially since their spellcasting and healing are subpar...I mean the HoT spells could have been an interesting concept but the time the ability lasts for makes it pointless.



That said you can boost the damage of a wolf form up pretty high but it involves a deep monk splash to do so.

As much as I love multi-classing every class should be able to stand on it's own

[Charononus]

Thats a dumb reason...their not actually spells so the actual spellcaster druids don't care



It better not be and it better change as the shapeshifting is a BIG part of the druid class and currently its fairly useless. IMO Druids are a failed class right now especially since their spellcasting and healing are subpar...I mean the HoT spells could have been an interesting concept but the time the ability lasts for makes it pointless.



As much as I love multi-classing every class should be able to stand on it's own

Just read your signature and if that's your goal a pure wolf form does indeed stand on it's own in normal content, if that's your goal everything is 100% viable, it's only ee's that you need to worry about the things you're talking about.

[Archangel_666]

Thats a dumb reason...they're not actually spells so the actual spellcaster druids don't care


And yet that's exactly what they did.

I've made the same observation in the past, though on my original account (This one only has mules), though I'm damned if I can find the threads now.

Look through your Druid's Spellbook.

Now, remove all the "spells" that can only be used whilst in Wolf, Bear, Fire Elemental or Water Elemental Forms.

Look how many are left...

[Failedlegend]

Just read your signature and if that's your goal a pure wolf form does indeed stand on it's own in normal content, if that's your goal everything is 100% viable, it's only ee's that you need to worry about the things you're talking about.

Oh to clarify I never build for hard or elite but I never have an issue with accidentally making a build that can handle EE that quote is mainly for people who flip out because for example I splashed a few levels on a rogue Assassin so it won't work perfect in EE.

Also I love the feeling of building a perfect build that satisfaction of everything fitting together perfectly is glorious.


And yet that's exactly what they did.

I've made the same observation in the past, though on my original account (This one only has mules), though I'm damned if I can find the threads now.

Look through your Druid's Spellbook.

Now, remove all the "spells" that can only be used whilst in Wolf, Bear, Fire Elemental or Water Elemental Forms.

Look how many are left...

I went through them and the amount of spells you get per levels isn't reduced much to be honest (only 3 or less per spell level)...I mean there's only a few lvl 8 and 9 spells but thats true of all spellcasters (asnd is still true even counting the from "abiliiters). If it is the reason they added them to the spellbook again...dumb reason.

I'd really love to hear some dev input on this...the Whys? the WAIs? the not WAIs? Possible plans to change it? etc. etc.

[richieelias27]

I went through them and the amount of spells you get per levels isn't reduced much to be honest (only 3 or less per spell level)...I mean there's only a few lvl 8 and 9 spells but thats true of all spellcasters (asnd is still true even counting the from "abiliiters). If it is the reason they added them to the spellbook again...dumb reason.

I'd really love to hear some dev input on this...the Whys? the WAIs? the not WAIs? Possible plans to change it? etc. etc.

It is especially annoying when you realize how many PnP spells they left out which would otherwise have been perfectly suitable for the game:

Level 4
Spike Stones - an enhanced spike growth spell

Level 5
Baleful Polymorph - turn em into toads!
Wall of Thorns - slashing damage wall of fire essentially

Level 6
Liveoak - summon a treant

Level 7
Transmute metal to wood - Attack, Damage, and AC debuff in a large area

Level 8
Word of Recall - treat it like teleport?
Reverse Gravity - I wish....
Whirlwind - Its a freakin tornado...

Level 9
Elemental Swarm - summon several elementals


And that's just from the players handbook. There are many many many more if you delve into the other books. Not a stretch when you consider their solution of pulling animal form attacks out of thin air :P

[Failedlegend]

Level 4
Spike Stones - an enhanced spike growth spell

This sucks because I love the animation for spike growth is so cool but its kind of a cr*p spell



Level 5
Baleful Polymorph - turn em into toads!

I fail to see why they can't give us a single target version of the epic spell (feat?) Mass Frog...although it would be nice if it was a random harmless animal like frog, bunny, rat, Squirrel,etc.



Wall of Thorns - slashing damage wall of fire essentially

Having this would really do alot to catch offensive spellcaster druids up a bit



Liveoak - summon a treant

Despite popular opinion I love summons and druids are the best at it so I would love a different summon



Level 7
Transmute metal to wood - Attack, Damage, and AC debuff in a large area

I also recall a spell called "Heat Metal" can't remeber its actual affect though...Metal to wood would be a cool spell though



Level 8
Word of Recall - treat it like teleport?

Would be an apt. translation of the spell



Whirlwind - Its a freakin tornado...

This



Level 9
Elemental Swarm - summon several elementals

I think the devs said a while ago summoning multiple summons would cause killer lag BUT if it was just a CR 20 "swarm" of tiny elementals that counted as one creature that would be awesome.


Another thing I'd like to see is that stupid summer/winter mechanic abolished...make two versions of Seasons Herald SH-Summer and Sh-Winter and like savants have them lock out the other one than have the tree focus on the relevant element.

[Havok.cry]

I think the devs said a while ago summoning multiple summons would cause killer lag BUT if it was just a CR 20 "swarm" of tiny elementals that counted as one creature that would be awesome.

The devs may say that, but when I have 4+ oozes out from my ooze 2 longbow, I have never had lag, and no one in my party starts complaining about lag when I start getting them.

[Failedlegend]

The devs may say that, but when I have 4+ oozes out from my ooze 2 longbow, I have never had lag, and no one in my party starts complaining about lag when I start getting them.

To be fair I rarely ever experience lag so I could care less but there's a very vocal minority that would rail against the idea and I'd rather keep it out of this thread...also I would love to summon tiny earth elemental swarms as a single creature it would be funny....especially if their attack animation is similar to how those flower things in pikmin attack

http://youtu.be/WJwgb9ea7Do?t=4m36s

[Havok.cry]

To be fair I rarely ever experience lag so I could care less but there's a very vocal minority that would rail against the idea and I'd rather keep it out of this thread...also I would love to summon tiny earth elemental swarms as a single creature it would be funny....especially if their attack animation is similar to how those flower things in pikmin attack

http://youtu.be/WJwgb9ea7Do?t=4m36s
They could easily reskin gelatinous cubes to make swarms of all types. The engulf attack is very similar, mechanically, to how a swarm's distraction attack works.

[Vargouille]

Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.

[Havok.cry]

Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.
Which takes away from much of the versatility that made druids a loved and much asked for class.

[SerPounce]

Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.

1. So why are they blocked by antimagic and rage?

2. ANy word on whether animal form 2wf is WAI?

[Failedlegend]

Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.

We understand that but its kind of a moot point...my druid spellcaster have no form abilities and my from specialized druid have all the spell slots they need.

The problem is that it makes it so you can't make effective Barbarian Druids because you can use your melee abilities which are incredibly iconic.

Also it punishes form-focused druids by blocking their abilities if theirm silenced or in an anti-magic aura

All that if you insist on keeping them as spells than let spellpower and metamagics affect them....currently they have the negatives of being spells and the negatives of not being spells no positives


Which takes away from much of the versatility that made druids a loved and much asked for class.

This, a Druids advantage over other classes is their versatility allowing them to adapt to the situation as their healing, melee, offensive casting, defensive capabilities are all subpar when compared to other more specialized classes....you taken away their versatility making them just a subpar class instead of versatile/ready for anything

[richieelias27]

Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.

I can see where you are coming from there. I mean from my understanding of what you are saying, you want druids to have to make an overall power choice between slotting melee spells or casting spells right? Well, where it starts to get all pear shaped is in the later levels where there is no choice at all. Especially at level 9 where you have exactly the same number of level 9 spells as spell slots.

Personally though, I don't see it working the way you are intending it to be working simply because there are so few effective caster spells to choose from. I feel like if I wanted to make a mixed caster/melee hybrid druid that I could still get all the normal spells I use as a pure caster druid and fit in the melee ones as well.

Also, as SerPounce mentioned, melee attack (spells) shouldnt be blocked by antimagic or rage, though I understand it is probably very difficult to code in an exception... I really do hope that you re-think this mechanic in the future and make these abilities SLA's instead. Perhaps unlockable in the Nature's Warrior tree?

Also, we need more spell options, especially the physical damage type ones. Maybe even an enhancement tree specializing in physical damage type spells? Insect Plague, Wall of Thorns, Creeping doom, etc? Pretty please?

[Havok.cry]

I would love to see enhancements supporting the huge amounts of untyped/physical/force damage spells that druids get. Was disappointed that they didn't when they came out. Instead we got seasons herald which is like the bastard stepchild of the sorcerer's savant trees.

My caster druid actually carries several of both the wolf and bear form attacks for when I am low of SP and need to extend my offensive capabilities to the next shrine. I do not give up anything I want to have in order to do this, so you choice making thing is kind of failing anyway.

[QuantumFX]

Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.

They should be counted as SLA’s though. You can rock a magically shapeshifted form in an anti-magic field, but can’t use any of it’s natural attacks because of the same anti-magic field? It makes as little sense as having a spell that blocks magical movement impediments (Freedom of Movement) that doesn’t block the magical movement impediments from a spellward.

[HatsuharuZ]

Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.

This mechanic, it seems to me, only makes problems for druid players. You see, these "attacks" are spells, and thus cannot be used when under the effects of rage, or under the effects of the beholder's anti-magic ability. It lowers the number of usable spells slots, which is not very relevant since druids have quite a few of those. As stated by others, the attacks-as-spells mechanic also prevents practical multi-classing and makes the druid weaker in melee. It makes sense for elemental form "attacks" to be spells, since they are clearly magical in nature. But bite and claw attacks? Pft.

Please consider changing this.

[PurpleTimb]

This mechanic, it seems to me, only makes problems for druid players. You see, these "attacks" are spells, and thus cannot be used when under the effects of rage, or under the effects of the beholder's anti-magic ability. It lowers the number of usable spells slots, which is not very relevant since druids have quite a few of those. As stated by others, the attacks-as-spells mechanic also prevents practical multi-classing and makes the druid weaker in melee. It makes sense for elemental form "attacks" to be spells, since they are clearly magical in nature. But bite and claw attacks? Pft.

Please consider changing this.
I completely agree. I've been trying to play a bear form druid tank, and this is just one of a long list of questionable design decisions that seriously gimp the bear form. If you need players to sacrifice a spell slot for some sort of "balance" then take away a spell slot while in animal form or take away a spell slot when the druid takes a new tier of Nature's Warrior or make shape shifting be a spell instead of a feat, lasting until the next time you rest. There are so many other ways you could implement this that (unlike live) would not gimp the animal form druid's abilities.

Please change druid melee attacks to be melee attacks and not spells.

[AzB]

Some druid attacks are listed as spells so there is a choice between spellcasting and melee. If you want all the attacks for Wolf, you give up spell slots for doing other things. You can change your mind in town, but not in the middle of a dungeon.

And why does the wolf spell "takedown", which uses wis as the dc modifier, share a cooldown with trip, a tactical feat based on str?

It makes no sense.

What would have made a lot more sense would be to put spell point and spell power enhancements in the caster tree, and put animal attacks in the melee tree.

Because now we have non caster melee wolves that can't attack in an anti-magic shield, take forever to take down the training dummy, and can't alternate trip and takedown.

And we have caster druids who have spells memorized that they never use because there aren't enough 8 and 9th level spells that aren't melee based to fill up our spell list. Add in the fact that EDs and SLAs replace several other 8 and 9th level spells, and you've got druids that rarely cast level 8 and 9 spells.

That can't possibly be what was planned.