Turtle Cleric: how would you build an Intimi-Cleric or Cleric-Tank post update?

[JollySwagMan]

'Turtle Cleric' might not be the best name, but thinking about it I guess it covers a few of the key concepts:

Turtling up with a Tower Shield and blasting out party healing...protecting party members/NPCs while taking on the brunt of the melee damage. This in itself doesn't take much specialist building really, any player can try it out for themselves at low levels with an Intim item and a Tower shield.

Turtles and Clerics are known for being heavily armored, slow and vulnerable to tipping..unless they are Teenaged, Mutant and Ninja of course. Rolling a Cleric-Monk or playing caster-style with robes and caster sticks instead of heavy armor and weaponry is one way of covering these traditional flaws, though that's kind of at odds with the character concept I'm after.

In game terms this means traditional 'clunky' Clerics have to compensate for lack of speed, jump, balance and reflex saves.
-Jump and Haste Potions cover the first two (every player should grab at least 1, preferably 2/3 sets of Anger's Step before they can afford stacks of Haste potions).
-Blocking prevents the Cleric from traditional trip attacks, though against mobs such as Air Elementals it's advised to use ranged attacks or spells
-For Reflex saves...best to take cover ;). Cleric-Monks are known for boosting up Reflex save with Dex and gear to make Evasion worthwhile, but this doesn't work so well with the heavy armor a melee tank-type might prefer. Of course player characters should focus on sacking hostile caster mobs so that their spells don't land on the party, but a traditional Cleric is stronger at tanking melee trash mobs than caster mobs.

These might be separate builds, IMO:

IntimiCleric - A Cleric that can Intimidate mobs.
Cleric Tank - A Tank that happens to be a Cleric.

The IntimiCleric doesn't have to be a melee Cleric - could be more of a generalist or caster type that incorporates Intim to support the rest of the build. Eg. using Intim to herd mobs into killzones. At its most basic, mixing in Intimidate with party healing helps reduce the cost/need for healing - provided the IntimiCleric can take the hits as they come of course! It helps that Tower shields don't impair Clerical casting, so 'Turtle-Healing' can be effective. That's the fundamental principle of these kinds of builds: take control of the healing needed by the party, mitigate the need to revive and rebuff squishy party members/NPCs..

Post update there is a Monk enhancement Ki Shout that allows Concentration to be substituted for Intimidate skill. For Clonks that can use this enhancement the 'IntimiCleric' moniker might apply to them as well. I'm wondering about a WF Clonk I've been neglecting since Update 14 and options for 'Hate Clonk' using this method perhaps.

Cleric Tank - by definition a heavy melee type, perhaps with a deeper split, especially into Fighter and/or Paladin levels. Should be beefy, using Intim and Cleaves, as well as Divine Punishment on bosses. Unlikely to have strong casting though possible through TR benefits and gear.

My most recent foray into this area of character builds has been more of an 'Intimicleric' than a proper tank: a generalist Cleric with standard casting+healing plus some extra tank abilities with just enough Str for Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave. For Epic levels the intent has been to switch to a more Str-heavy build. I'm trying to get a bit more research in before going ahead and using the LR+20 on my guy.

Rolling up a new Intimicleric I didn't like how many skillpoints I needed through to pump up Intim now that we need Heal and Spellcraft..instead got interested in a Fighter/Barbarian/Cleric mutt with obscene Str. I'm sure there's plenty of options I haven't considered yet.

Anyway apologies if I haven't made the best intro post on this topic, just like to get the ball rolling and get some input on how others would build for an Intimicleric/Cleric Tank.

[CE2JRH123]

I have to imagine you use Paladin or Fighter for their defender trees --- but aside from that I'm not more useful.

[phalaeo2]

I had an intimi-Cleric before they changed the rules for Intimidate. She was a high CHA Human, 17CLR/2PAL/1FTR who had something around a 78 intim at level 20. Basically, she could just stand there, mash intim, and all the mobs would pile up on her. Nobody got hurt, everyone who had SA/Backstabbing got their sneak attacks, and she was a lot of fun. I used a few variables to insure survivability:



[*=6]Gear. Protective Guards. Temp HP procs all over- Cavalry Plate, ConOpp, Levik's Shield, Earthen Guard on the cove trinket for Stoneskin.
[*=6]Cleric Aura + High Healing amp. Base tics were hitting me in the mid 80s, crits well over 140.
[*=6]Charisma synergy. Two Pally levels got her saves through the roof. Her Charisma ensured near limitless turns for auras and bursts, and she was able to get high enough UMD to use protective buffs off scrolls and wands.




The changes to Intim mechanics changed her viability. She was able to take the hits, she couldn't DPS worth a **** and I had a hard time rebuilding her. You used to be able to hold aggro with just a successful Intim check, now you need to actually build and keep hate, and I wasn't finding a way to build in enough hate/DPS gear with protective gear/feats, so I TR'ed her. Right now, I'm sort of theorycrafting a "FoT-proof" Cleric that can take Truthful One aggro. I haven't gotten very far... too busy with learning the new enhancements.

In regards to INT requirements, skill points, and Heal/Spellcraft-- After 5+ years of building and playing Clerics of all sorts, I always put base points into INT and get the highest INT tome I can. Depending on how you build, you still don't need to put a single point into Heal. I didn't on my Caster/Raid Healing Clonk, and she can swap a few things and get almost 370 Positive Spellpower without a single rank in Heal. I could get her light spellpower higher, but right now, it's at 319 with Planar Focus set (Twilight/Erudition), Blue Dragon set bonus, and Ex. Angel ED.

I would start by looking at the Purple Dragon Knight Iconic. You have to take the first level as Fighter, but you can take the rest of your levels in whatever split you want. I'm suggesting PDK because they get an enhancement that allows them to use their CHA for STR/DMG with shortswords, longswords, bastard swords and greatswords. They get the Human Versatility enhancement line, allowing you to boost Spellpower, Saves, Defense, etc. You can check out the other enhancements they get here (http://ddowiki.com/page/Purple_Dragon_Knight_enhancements).

The new planner isn't out yet, but maybe I'll fiddle around in game and try to build something similar to what you've described.

[phalaeo2]

This is what I could come up with. It's by no means awesome, but it may give you some ideas. (Remember, Iconics get enough XP to level right up to Level 15, so this is for a Level 15 character)

Purple Dragon Knight Iconic
Fighter 2
Paladin 6
Cleric 7

Starting Stats:
STR: 13
DEX: 8
CON: 16
INT: 14
WIS: 13
CHA: 14 (Level ups here)

Level 15 stats with tomes, enhancements and gear:
STR: 20 (+6 item, +1 tome)
DEX: 16 (+6 item, +2 tome)
CON: 22 (+6 item, +2 tome)
INT: 22 (+6 item, +2 tome)
WIS: 22 (+6 item, +2 tome, +1 enhancement)
CHA: 26 (+6 item, +2 tome, +3 level ups, +1 insightful from PDK starter item)

Level 15 saves with tomes, enhancements, +5 resistance item, a GH, and +2 luck:
(No ship buffs)
Fort: 41
Reflex: 31
Will: 34

Level 15 HP:
361 (vitality +20, GFL +30, Large Guild augment +20)

Level 15 SP:
487 (I did not have a +6 WIS item, SP item or tomes, so this number is way off.)

Feats-
First level- Power Attack (Fighter bonus), Cleave (Human bonus feat) and Insightful Reflexes (What? It's an experiment! ;))
Maximize
Empower Heal
Quicken
Mental Toughness or Improved Critical: Slashing (Depends on what gear you have, can swap feats)
Great Cleave (Fighter bonus)
Two Handed Fighting (have to eat a +2 STR tome before this one)
(One more Heroic feat available at level 18)
(Two Epic feats available at levels 21, and 24)
(Two ED feats)

Skills-
Concentration: 23 (17 ranks. Missing +15 item and/or Shroud skills item)
Intim: 39 (17 ranks. With +15 item)
Heal: 14 (12 ranks. Missing +15 skills item, +6 WIS item and/or Shroud skills item)
Spellcraft: 7 (5 ranks. Missing +15 skills item, +6 INT item and/or Shroud skills item)
Balance: 5 (9 ranks. -5 Penalty from Armor. Missing +15 skills item, +6 WIS item and/or Shroud skills item)

AC at level 15-
50 (Wearing starter armor, no buffs, etc.)
10 Base
1 Dex Bonus (Max Dex Bonus: 5)
19 Armor Bonus
9 Shield Bonus
5 Deflection Bonus
3 Misc. Bonus
3 Feat Bonus
0 Dodge
52% Defense chance at level

Enhancements-
This is where I was having a hard time. A lot depends on whether you want the Cleric aura or not, if you want Divine Disciple for light spellpower (not a lot leftover for defense/melee), or if you want defense/melee/threat (not a lot leftover for Divine Disciple).

The rest was filler, these were what I was spending AP to get:
Divine Might (Cleric Tree)
Divine Righteousness (Says 100% Sacred bonus to Threat for 60 seconds... I'm assuming this does not stack with Sacred Defense...)
Positive Energy Aura
Positive Energy Burst
Reactive Heal
Sacred Defense (+10 PRR, +50% Threat gen, permanent stance)
Cormyrean Knight Training (Uses the higher of CHA or STR for hit/damage with shortswords, longswords, bastard swords and greatswords)
Durable Defense (While in Sacred Defense Stance, gain +15 sacred bonus to PRR)
Inciting Defense (While in Sacred Defense Stance, gain +50 sacred bonus to melee threat generation)
Endless Turning (Allows turns to regen)
Extra Lay on Hands
Incredible Healing
Intense Healing
Sacred Armor Mastery (+1 AC and armor max DEX bonus)
Wand (and Scroll!) Mastery (all 3 ranks, Cleric tree)

[eachna_gislin]

'Turtle Cleric' might not be the best name, but thinking about it I guess it covers a few of the key concepts:

Turtling up with a Tower Shield and blasting out party healing...protecting party members/NPCs while taking on the brunt of the melee damage. This in itself doesn't take much specialist building really, any player can try it out for themselves at low levels with an Intim item and a Tower shield.

Anyway apologies if I haven't made the best intro post on this topic, just like to get the ball rolling and get some input on how others would build for an Intimicleric/Cleric Tank.

Warpriest is being previewed in Lamma-land now. No tower shield, but it has melee capability and some nice synergy with a 2-3 paladin splash (and you could get a couple levels of cheap intimidate and extra from enhancements). You can either use a Madstone Shield/Madstone Aegis (for the free proficiency) or a large shield. Feats are probably too tight to burn on Tower shield proficiency.

As far as I know, Warpriest doesn't have a firm release date. But I'd guess when they release Mabar, so we can hope for sooner than Soon(TM).

With Warpriest as it stands now in the enhancement preview, I'd take the tier 3 or 4 favored weapon line, take the Radiant aura from Radiant Servant, and spend the rest of your free ap in the paladin defender tree. If they don't change the Warpriest Divine Might to be powered by turns (right now clerics have to spend spellpoints on it) I'd take the paladin version. If they do change Warpriest and buff the tier 5 favored weapon line to increase crit range and/or multiplier then take it, drop the radiant aura but take the burst (plus extras in paladin).

I know it's a bit of "if this then that", but until the final prestige débuts a few choices are up in the air.

Balance your starting build points between strength, constitution, and charisma. Join the ranks of full paladins and learn to embrace wisdom as a dump stat.

Sword and board with either a longsword, or scimitar (if you're willing/able to play a half elf).

[unbongwah]

Purple Dragon Knight Iconic
Fighter 2
Paladin 6
Cleric 7
Unless you really need the extra feat, I would lean towards cleric 13 / pal 6 / ftr 1; that gets you lvl 7 spells (MCSW, Resurrection) while still being able to use defensive stances. With 12 feats total (7 heroic + 1 PDK + 1 ftr + 3 epic), I think you would want: on the melee side, Power Atk, CL, GC, Shield Mastery, ISM, and IC:Slash (can be dropped if you use keen weaps like Oathblade); on the caster side, Emp Heal, Maximize, Quicken, Emp; with two left over to use as you see fit.

Starting Stats:
STR: 13
DEX: 8
CON: 16
INT: 14
WIS: 13
CHA: 14 (Level ups here)
If you're really going CHA-based, I would drop to INT 12 WIS 11 for CHA 16. INT 12 is still enough to max Concentration, Heal, and Intim every lvl, I think.

[JollySwagMan]

Apologies for late response, realised I was rambling on off topic stuff for a good chunk of my reply...


I had an intimi-Cleric before they changed the rules for Intimidate. She was a high CHA Human, 17CLR/2PAL/1FTR who had something around a 78 intim at level 20. Basically, she could just stand there, mash intim, and all the mobs would pile up on her. Nobody got hurt, everyone who had SA/Backstabbing got their sneak attacks, and she was a lot of fun.

Indeed! I wish I had rolled up an IntimiCleric in those times. I've been interested in the build type for a while, but didn't play one until U14 (Alas poor Ardor clickies, I knew them well)


The changes to Intim mechanics changed her viability. She was able to take the hits, she couldn't DPS worth a **** and I had a hard time rebuilding her. You used to be able to hold aggro with just a successful Intim check, now you need to actually build and keep hate, and I wasn't finding a way to build in enough hate/DPS gear with protective gear/feats, so I TR'ed her. Right now, I'm sort of theorycrafting a "FoT-proof" Cleric that can take Truthful One aggro. I haven't gotten very far... too busy with learning the new enhancements.

Aye there is a lot to process. I'm still catching up a bit as well..I had to look up FoT, heh - I don't think I've actually checked into the revamped Gianthold yet! I wonder at the traps in epic elite Crucible..I digress.

For the time being I don't intend to aim towards raid healing or indeed raid healing+tanking myself. I do want to get advice and foster discussion on the topic though.

While there was another recent thread regarding a melee Cleric that uses Intimidate (that one is specifically a PDK using the Charisma ability), the IntimiCleric seems to be a relatively rare build type. It's great to get ideas from folks more experienced with current content and gear.

There are two level 20 melee-splashed Clerics that I'm interested in rebuilding, both on Thelanis. Also..forgot the LR+20 should allow me to go ahead and switch my 'gimped' crafter mule to an Artificer...neat.

Pelorforged - Warforged 17/3 Cleric/Monk, neglected since U14, but the update's enhancements are promising.
Originally on Thelanis I rolled up three WF Clonks with slight variations...the one with higher Wisdom proved the most enjoyable - stunning mobs with a Heal scroll equipped was part of the appeal. Fun times. If I recall correctly that quirk was ironed out before I levelled that character up to 20 though.
15 Wis was all I could afford at start alas. When rerolling this character I imagine I'll take some points from Wisdom (lots more sources of tactics DCs now, plus might be able to fit in some Divine Disciple SLAs to benefit from metamagics), bump up Int and Charisma.
Heh, can pick up immunities as a Cleric ability ;)
Ki Shout and WF hate gen seem like a possible avenue...really though I wish for an Intimidate ability like Ki Shout for Clerics that could be used with a shield equipped.

Lucksworth - Human 18/2 Cleric/Fighter IntimiCleric. This character was rolled up after abandoning Pelorforged to the bugs.
While levelling I had a few options lined up for LR pending further research/prep into a preferred playstyle.
I posted a build thread a while back....here we go: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/394808-IntimiCleric .
Currently Luck sits at 18/2 Cleric/Fighter with the original generalist layout (17 starting Wis + levelups, Great Cleave) with free LR and LR+20 available.
Playstyle wise in groups I find Cleaves and regular healing output to be preferable to heavy casting (on trash mobs at least).
Keeping the Aura will be essential.
Considering switching from True Neutral to Lawful Good to allow for Paladin splash. If I made that kind of investment on a character though I'd want to TR them first probably.

I'd also like to check into a Dwarven option..interesting options for Con+Wisdom focused builds perhaps. Also the hammers/picks enhancements are neat, Mauls and Warhammers already have a 'Divine Champion' kind of vibe to them.

Reading on Warpriest enhancements now, a Whirling Longswords Cleric might be appealing as well. I was about to espouse the benefits of TWF blocking over Unarmed/Quarterstaff blocking, but noticed that that the Unarmed/THF category does have a DR advantage vs ranged attacks. http://ddowiki.com/page/Active_blocking

Barbarians get some neat new attacks, though Sprint Boost has been bumped up from a level 1 to level 2 Barb ability (alas for some builds).

2-3 level Bard splashes could provide some neat options - noticing that both Ironskin chant and Spellsong trance are now Bard 3 abilities (min level 5 to have 8 Perform ranks).

I'm curious as to hotkey layouts one might employ for this type of character. On my IntimiCleric I levelled with 10 hotbars on screen. 2 for primary abilities/spells, a healing bar, nuking bar, weapons bar, 3 equipment bars and buffs on the scrolling hotbar. with 5 hidden buff bars. Since playing Skyrim with a controller I've become more interested in playing DDO on a controller as well. Had an interest beforehand and tried with a PS3 controller so I've been trying to winnow down the amount of hotbars I use, see how much of it I can work back onto the scroll-bar. A bit of a tall order on a party healer let alone a hybrid healer type, requires having enough combinations to target at least 6, possibly 12 players.



In regards to INT requirements, skill points, and Heal/Spellcraft-- After 5+ years of building and playing Clerics of all sorts, I always put base points into INT and get the highest INT tome I can. Depending on how you build, you still don't need to put a single point into Heal. I didn't on my Caster/Raid Healing Clonk, and she can swap a few things and get almost 370 Positive Spellpower without a single rank in Heal. I could get her light spellpower higher, but right now, it's at 319 with Planar Focus set (Twilight/Erudition), Blue Dragon set bonus, and Ex. Angel ED.

Well that's good news..perhaps I overreacted to the introduction of these two new skills. I've been reading up on some gear, but will have to check characters to see what all has changed in the packs I currently own.


I would start by looking at the Purple Dragon Knight Iconic. You have to take the first level as Fighter, but you can take the rest of your levels in whatever split you want. I'm suggesting PDK because they get an enhancement that allows them to use their CHA for STR/DMG with shortswords, longswords, bastard swords and greatswords. They get the Human Versatility enhancement line, allowing you to boost Spellpower, Saves, Defense, etc. You can check out the other enhancements they get here (http://ddowiki.com/page/Purple_Dragon_Knight_enhancements).

The new planner isn't out yet, but maybe I'll fiddle around in game and try to build something similar to what you've described.

Thanks for taking the time and effort to roll up a character in game and post the stats here in lieu of a current planner - much kudos!

There's a lot of Charisma synergy going on for the PDK build, alas won't be picking up Iconics for a while but really like the idea of playing that kind of Cleric.

Also a fan of Insightful Reflexes on experimental builds like this...Though with that much Charisma and Divine Grace it looks like saves would be pretty healthy anyway :)

Thanks again for posting the build..once I pick up PDK I'll be checking into this (and a slew of experimental builds swapping Cha around :))