Need guidance for a pally past life.

[Gate-keeper]

I need some help in building a Paladin. Not because I really want to play a Paladin, but because I want to get 5% healing amp past life feat. I'm not asking for a step by step build, but at least some guidance into what to focus on, etc.

This would be a second life toon. For the most part, TRing this toon is about all I will be doing for the foreseeable future, so I don't really need a build that is end-game worthy. My first life was a fair approximation of Unbongwah's Tempest Trap-monkey (but I'm going to use the LR+20 to LR him into a Barbarian because I feel the 10 HP from a barb past life is more useful than 2 extra ranged damage and 2 points of elemental resist from a Ranger past life.)

Since I currently solo exclusively (if running with a plat hireling can be considered soloing), self-sufficiency is a must, which is why my first life was the Tempest Trap-monkey - that play style really suits me. However, with the recent nerfs to stealth and search, that play style may be tough to duplicate in a pally build since Paladins don't get any where near the number of skill points per level as Rangers do.

I was leaning towards Ellisdee's Evasion Paladin, but I'm not sure that build has enough DPS for a soloist - and in my humble and possibly badly informed opinion, DPS is a bit more important than survivability to a soloer.

I'm defintely going to take two levels of Rogue to get Evasion. Other than that I don't really know which way to go. I've seen alot of 12 Pal/6 Rog/2 Ftr running around so I'm kind of leaning that way, but don't really know specifics. Or, since 12 Pal won't get me Holy Sword, Zeal or HotD 2, should I go 14 Pal/6 Rog? Or go 18 Pal/2 Rog and just run thru traps and ignore loot in chests I can't open? Obviously, first level would be Rogue, so I'm thinking 2-7 Paladin, but when would I take other levels? Which stats should I focus on and which should I dump? (although I'm a premium player, I have all six +4 stat tomes, p2w ftw ;) Which enhancement lines would I take? Which feats are a must? TWF or THF? Are the Rogue and Fighter splashes going to be enough to overcome the Paladin's abyssmal DPS?

Teal Deer: Help!

[Therigar]

TRing this toon is about all I will be doing for the foreseeable future, so I don't really need a build that is end-game worthy.

My standard TR just for the past lives build is 9 monk/11 whatever. The 9 monk gives everything really needed to manage heroic content and the 11 whatever becomes the TR class.

Level to 18 then sit until you XP cap. Take the final 2 levels and TR.

I suppose the same strategy can be used running favored soul, cleric, wizard, sorcerer, etc. The idea is to run a very forgiving class that you like to play and that you are geared to play and then pile the unwanted class on top of that.

I go with monk because it is a class I particularly enjoy and that I find easy to play.

[AbyssalMage]

My suggestion, now with enhancement pass would be 12/6/2 like you commented at. It will give you the PL and will give you a lot of flexibility. Couple things:

A) Do you have Monk? I know you said you will go Rogue for evasion but Monk gives evasion and two feats at the cost of wearing cloth which isn't horrible in Heroic content.

B) I would farm the gear you are going to TR into. Thanks to U19 you can have some really nice gear so plan now and it should make your TR life a whole lot easier.

C) If you do (B) above, skipping locked chests will be a little easier on your conscious. I don't think any locked chests contain "valuable" named loot; none that I can think of. As far as random generated loot, you should have as good as it gets before you start. You lose out on the random "1 and 1000 chance" to open Portable Holes and Tomes but it is a small sacrifice for a single life.

D) 11/6/3 or 10/6/4 Would be another option as the first 3/4 levels in a class unlocks A LOT in a class tree. 6 Fighter gives you a lot in Kensei (sp?) tree helping out your DPS and needed Feats and 3 Monk/Rogue gives you evasion. Paladin levels (CHR bonus to saves) should make Evasion work at all levels :) making traps slightly less deadly.

[Deathdefy]

I also hate Paladin. I'm also going to recommend a heavy monk splash. In that vein, dismiss this post if you're just not a fan.

Firstly, build for level 18 not 20.

12/6/2 isn't a thing in a TR build since you'll TR as soon as you hit 20. Waiting at 18 is also the easiest way to hit 20 due to the larger amount of farmable content and groups willing to accept you still available vs 19 (e.g. 'Running With The Devils' and 'Rainbow in the Dark').

I don't hate Therigar's idea. 9 Monk / 9 Pally (by 18) would do it.

If you want traps and UMD, make it 1 Arti / 9 Monk / 8 Paladin (by 18, 10 Paladin by 20).

1 Rogue instead of 1 Arti is also a reasonable decision, but imo on a soloing PL build, a lever pulling dog > 2d6 Sneak Attack.

On stats:
We want decent strength, con, wis, dex, int and cha. Fun. Yay Trapping Paladin Monks.

Dex: is the defining stat here, as you need a bare minimum for GTWF. Every other stat is adjustable.

Unfortunately on this build, starting with 15 is required. If you started with 14, your +3 tome wouldn't kick in until 11, which means you would need to take ITWF and GTWF at levels 12 and 15 respectively (since you want them ASAP and they require 17 Dex).

Sadly, that would leave IC: Bludgeoning high and dry until 18, since the only way to take it at level 9 (given a trapper class at level 1 is the whole point of including one) would be by having levels 2 - 9 all as Paladin... which would be no Monk for far too long.

So, starting Dex, due to feat and class considerations is 15.

Str: At least 6. Let's try 6 for now, so it's 14. Level-ups go here since damage and hitting is good.

Wis: About 6 points (for stunning fist). Let's try 6 for now, so it's 14.

Con: 6 points for 14.

Int: 6 points for 14

Cha: 2 points left, oh well. Do get items though since Lay on Hands, Divine Might, and Pally save bonus all use this. Just every other stat is more important in my opinion - you could pillage Wisdom if you really wanted, but I wouldn't since stunning fist is awesome and your DC will be respectable throughout heroics with a 14 base +4 Tome and Stunning Wraps.

Summary:
STR 14 (6 points)
CON 14 (6 points)
DEX 15 (8 points)
WIS 14 (6 points)
INT 14 (6 points)
CHA 10 (2 points)
= 34 points. For 32 points I'd never make this build since you need tomes, but whatever. If you really want,

Levels:
1 - Arti (trapper level comes first)
2 - 10 - Monk (monk = fist damage dice and move speed and evasion and improved evasion = comes ASAP)
11 - 20 - Paladin (gotta put it somewhere)

Feats:
1 - Arti 1 - Stunning Blow EDIT: +Another feat: Luck of Heroes would be my choice.
2 - Monk 1 - (Power Attack)
3 - Monk 2 - TWF, (Stunning Fist)
4 - Monk 3 - Path of Light ( I think? Whatever. Go Dark if you like, but Blur Finisher + Self-Healing)
6 - Monk 5 - Lightning Reflexes (If you have evasion, I consider this a no-brainer in levelling builds)
7 - Monk 6 - (Dodge)
9 - Monk 8 - ITWF
12 - Paladin 2 - IC: Bludgeoning
15 - Paladin 5 - GTWF
18 - Paladin 8 - Empower Healing maybe?

At level 1 put 1 point into Tumble and 4 into Balance/Jump if you can. If not, whatever.

At Monk levels until CL 7 you have 4 base + 2 Int bonus + 1 human = 7 skill points. They go on Search / DD / UMD + 1 Concentrate. At CL 7 you get a bonus point to use on one of the million useful skills available. Maybe Heal?

At Paladin levels you have 2 base + 3 Int bonus + 1 human = 6 skill points. They go on Search / DD / UMD. That's it. At CL 15 you get a bonus point again to play with.

Healing will mostly be wands/pots, but you have nice Shintao Amp and Fists of Light. Eventually you have paladin levels too. Evasion should be fine, though do get an "Infused Chaosrobe" with "Uncanny Awareness" for Reflex + 10 saves from level 14 onward. It's brilliant.

And Fin. There. The best past-life paladin build ever to grace these forums.

[psykopeta]

go 10 pally 8 fighter 2 rogue (8-8-2 at 18) to get that damm kensei tree maxed (that's the nice deal, because pally trees suck, if u go tank whoever are a good deal)

14 int base for no fail and have enough points for dd+search (some tome would be nice, at least +2 lol)

2 rogue lvls, at 1 for skills ofc and at 13 to recover that difference between search/disable and umd (now umd will be half point behind search/disable, if u have a +4 int tome that difference will continue til end, that means u can do every heroic trap in game and umd heal scrolls w/o trouble)

13 str for PA
14 con because u're cool
18 cha because u wanna be a sexy pally drow, and have a huge bonus to saves, gajillion charges of dm, holy retribution, turn undead (which u can spen in these 2 and more stuff) is cool

also dm isn't as strong as before, true, but u don't need more than 4 pally lvls to get it maxed, so dunno why don't take benefit of it, just hit 20 in my 1st pally life(had to do 14-4-2 so can craft the damm holy swords for next life, next one will be 10-8-2 w/o doubt)

so leveling would be something like

1 rogue, PA
2 fighter, cleave
3 pally, weapon focus
4 pally
5 pally
6 pally, force of personality (now u have turn undead, so gajillion charges of everything)
7 fighter, great cleave
8 fighter
9 fighter, weapon specialization
10 fighter
11 fighter, ic
12 fighter, thf
13 rogue, now u have almost same umd than search/disable (with ur cha that means no fail on heal, gh, etc)
14 fighter, greater weapon focus
15 pally, ithf
16 pally
17 pally
18 pally, gthf, bank til 20, then 19-20 pally

the thf line isn't a big deal, between boosts, dm, rage, and that stuff (use em while cleave/g cleave are on cd) u'll be quite busy and stuff will die quite fast, so if u wanna change thf line for something like toughness, magical training(hey, 80 sp and 5% crit and echos of power, isn't that bad XDDD) and empower heal or whatever u like, will be fine, don't expect from a "50% damage of weapon + 10% of chance to trigger special effects" to save ur a$s when surrounded by h0es

most important, be drow, be sexy, smash their heads with style XDDDD

btw, i used (and i'm gonna use in next life too xD) a greataxe, whatever u use, be thf and everything of same style (slashing in that case) so ur feats an kensai foucs work 100% XDDD

about enhancements... i would worry about divine might when u hit 4 pally(so it last 4 mins) and rest would go filling kensai while getting the right feats, then back to pally, etc etc

drow enhancements... i would take only first 4 cores for the +2 cha, also lvl ups in cha, whatever in cha!!!XDD so u hit 50 str at lvl 18(with divine might ofc),something like 19-20-dunno charges of everything, 40+ saves etc etc. that stuff makes u a sexy drow, too

btw almost forgot it, hope u noticed ur skill points go to search+disable device, umd when hitting 13, and that 3 skills all the way, don't really need concentration when u smash stuff like a minibarb (but have more healing amp and str)

[EllisDee37]

Maybe an 8/8/2 build? Monk/Pally/Fighter or Monk/Pally/Rogue?

One thing to consider: As a TR-only build (and a second life at that, as opposed to legend build) the stuff that doesn't get good until level 16-18 is kind of meh for you. That kind of back-loaded power is for running epics.

In other words, pally healing is probably not going to be a huge part of your pally life even if you build for self-healing. Pallies don't get cure moderate wounds until level 10, cure serious at 15. (Zeal @ 14.)

Monk is a good suggestion; lots of self-healing there. Ranger gives lots of devotion for a healing monk finishing move if you want to go lightside, which still gets lots of sneak damage thanks to the enhancement pass. And monks get a nice sneak damage strike that makes whatever mob you hit with it take sneak damage for up to a minute, The strike has a 3 second cooldown and minimal ki cost so it's easily spammable.

Something like 10/9/1 pally/monk/ranger (final @ 20) with 8/9/1 pally/monk/ranger being the 18 build. The level order would be ranger @ 1, followed by 9 monk levels (racing to improved evasion) and ending with 10 straight paladin levels.

At level 15 you could even seal your soul to be immune to level drain if you wanted, but empty hand mastery would probably be better.

[psykopeta]

go 10 pally 8 fighter 2 rogue (8-8-2 at 18) to get that damm kensei tree maxed (that's the nice deal, because pally trees suck, if u go tank whoever are a good deal)

14 int base for no fail and have enough points for dd+search (some tome would be nice, at least +2 lol)

2 rogue lvls, at 1 for skills ofc and at 13 to recover that difference between search/disable and umd (now umd will be half point behind search/disable, if u have a +4 int tome that difference will continue til end, that means u can do every heroic trap in game and umd heal scrolls w/o trouble)

13 str for PA
14 con because u're cool
18 cha because u wanna be a sexy pally drow, and have a huge bonus to saves, gajillion charges of dm, holy retribution, turn undead (which u can spen in these 2 and more stuff) is cool

also dm isn't as strong as before, true, but u don't need more than 4 pally lvls to get it maxed, so dunno why don't take benefit of it, just hit 20 in my 1st pally life(had to do 14-4-2 so can craft the damm holy swords for next life, next one will be 10-8-2 w/o doubt)

so leveling would be something like

1 rogue, PA
2 fighter, cleave
3 pally, weapon focus
4 pally
5 pally
6 pally, force of personality (now u have turn undead, so gajillion charges of everything)
7 fighter, great cleave
8 fighter
9 fighter, weapon specialization
10 fighter
11 fighter, ic
12 fighter, thf
13 rogue, now u have almost same umd than search/disable (with ur cha that means no fail on heal, gh, etc)
14 fighter, greater weapon focus
15 pally, ithf
16 pally
17 pally
18 pally, gthf, bank til 20, then 19-20 pally

the thf line isn't a big deal, between boosts, dm, rage, and that stuff (use em while cleave/g cleave are on cd) u'll be quite busy and stuff will die quite fast, so if u wanna change thf line for something like toughness, magical training(hey, 80 sp and 5% crit and echos of power, isn't that bad XDDD) and empower heal or whatever u like, will be fine, don't expect from a "50% damage of weapon + 10% of chance to trigger special effects" to save ur a$s when surrounded by h0es

most important, be drow, be sexy, smash their heads with style XDDDD

btw, i used (and i'm gonna use in next life too xD) a greataxe, whatever u use, be thf and everything of same style (slashing in that case) so ur feats an kensai foucs work 100% XDDD

about enhancements... i would worry about divine might when u hit 4 pally(so it last 4 mins) and rest would go filling kensai while getting the right feats, then back to pally, etc etc

also spend 13 ap if u want in mechanic tree for 75% effect on wand/scrolls, +3 saves vs traps, +3 disable and +3 search

drow enhancements... i would take only first 4 cores for the +2 cha, also lvl ups in cha, whatever in cha!!!XDD so u hit 50 str at lvl 18(with divine might ofc),something like 19-20-dunno charges of everything, 40+ saves etc etc. that stuff makes u a sexy drow, too

[Therigar]

Firstly, build for level 18 not 20.

That is the whole idea when building to TR. When you build for the purpose of getting a past life in you only, ever, build for L18. Then you sit there until you've got the XP for L20, take the last 2 levels and TR.

Taking artificer or rogue for 1 level isn't a bad idea. I appreciate the idea behind artificer at L1. I also stack all the monk levels up front and then put the TR class at the end. The reasons for this are simple -- monk gives some bonus feats, evasion and improved evasion, all of which I want as early as possible.

Comments others are making about benefits of the paladin class or fighter kensai or any other thing are just ways to get off track. When building explicitly for the purpose of a past life there is no need to look at those things because the character isn't sticking around long enough to justify them. A build that is just looking to get in a past life needs to stay focused on how to get in 20 levels as fast and painless as possible.

This is why I go with 9 monk/11 whatever. For me monk is an easy class to play with more benefits than any other class given my way of playing. I also prefer half-elf with cleric dilettante in order to access wand and scroll use. I personally don't feel that the benefits of being able to handle traps justifies the addition of artificer or rogue to the mix. I can use a hire to pull levers (arty dog) and with high reflex saves the character doesn't need to worry about traps.

From a leveling standpoint the XP bonus for trapping usually doesn't justify the time spent and the time used to get 10 levels is longer than the time spent getting 9. I want 9 levels of monk so that I have all of the basic needs covered and can start in on the past life class without being distracted.

So, if I were going to go with the artificer/rogue suggestion I would actually take rogue at L10. This runs counter to common thinking but my feeling on this is that I want the 9 monk levels as fast as possible, trapping is of limited XP benefit, hires can do any switch pulling (arty dog replacement), so if I'm going to get distracted from my goal the time to allow it is at L10.

Since I'd be waiting until L10 to take the trapper class that means I would want rogue instead of artificer in order to get the most skill points. I'd need the skill points to back fill search and disable. And, of course, I'd always be playing catch up with these skills -- although gear could help mitigate some of the lost skill points as could skill tomes.

IMO, however, being distracted with the trapper class just makes things unnecessarily cluttered. Trapping isn't needed at heroic levels, the character will never run epic content, so just stay focused on the end objective.

Anyway, that's my perspective on it and why I suggested 9 monk/11 whatever as the way to get in past lives when players are just leveling to 20 and then taking the TR.

[droid327]

You're all doing it wrong :)

2 Rogue/18 Pal is all you need, straight up 2HF melee cleaver. STR, CON, CHA. Evasion with DG, and the following in your attack chain:

Cleave +1W, AOE (6 sec cooldown)
Great Cleave +2W, AOE (6 sec)
Bleed Them Out: +3W, stacking DOT (6 sec)
Shiv: +3W (12 sec)
Sly Flourish: +1.5W, +3 Crit Range (12 sec)

with Venomed Blades: +1d8 on every attack

All you need for DPS as a THF is right there in /2 Rogue, with Cleave/GC and the THF feats. Shiv and Sly Flourish don't interrupt your attack chain (at least not on my own Rogue THF stickfighter), so you can basically alternate Cleave/GC/BTO every other attack (first attack always gets glancing blows), with a Shiv and Sly Flourish thrown in between for extra damage, and of course Smites.

Especially for Heroic, all you need is a toolbox of high-damage attacks to spam, and enough defense/heals to stay alive. Rogue gives you the former, Pally provides more than enough for the latter.

edit: ah, good (if humorless and condescending) point from the poster below. Barb was just an afterthought anyway, the Rogue toolbox is still solid. If you wanted to be even more exotic, you could toss in /2 or /3 Barb, too...Rages, and more THF enhancements for glancing blows. plus some defense through Occult Slayer to make up for the AC you lose going light-armor THF.

[Therigar]

If you wanted to be even more exotic, you could toss in /2 or /3 Barb, too...Rages, and more THF enhancements for glancing blows. plus some defense through Occult Slayer to make up for the AC you lose going light-armor THF.

This is the reason you don't take advice from whoever has access to the forums and a keyboard.

Barbarian and Paladin can never be multiclassed together.

It isn't us who are "doing it wrong."

[droid327]

This is the reason you don't take advice from whoever has access to the forums and a keyboard.



That's mighty stringent criticism from a guy who just said this:


All of us "experts" are just opinionated talking heads with different takes on the game and on what makes a successful character.

Maybe you should take your own advice before you start looking at everyone else's? :P

[Therigar]

That's mighty stringent criticism

Yet deserved.

Everyone is entitled to opinions and the point about talking heads is that the forums are filled with posters who don't have a real clue about the game or legitimate reasons for their perspectives.

The post I criticized points this out exquisitely.

No need to take offense at that or to pretend that the criticism wasn't warranted. ;)

[EllisDee37]

Maybe you should take your own advice before you start looking at everyone else's? :PYou suggested splashing barb on a paladin.

[Archangel_666]

My standard TR just for the past lives build is 9 monk/11 whatever. The 9 monk gives everything really needed to manage heroic content and the 11 whatever becomes the TR class.

Level to 18 then sit until you XP cap. Take the final 2 levels and TR.

I suppose the same strategy can be used running favored soul, cleric, wizard, sorcerer, etc. The idea is to run a very forgiving class that you like to play and that you are geared to play and then pile the unwanted class on top of that.

I go with monk because it is a class I particularly enjoy and that I find easy to play.

Slight thread hijack, but hopefully it'll help the OP too if they're interested.

What did/do you do for Barbarian Past Lives?

Like you I do the whole 9 Monk/11 Past Life Class. In my case it's a pretty easy decision to make because I'm getting the Past Lives for my Monk.

My Stumbling block is Barbarian. The extra HP would be nice, but Barbarian is my idea of hell. Take big stick and hit on head. Ugh.

I'm leaning somewhat towards something like 6 Druid/6 Rogue(or something)/8 Barb and play as a druid wolf or something...

Thoughts?

[Deathdefy]

Oh I wasn't going to respond since I figured this thread was done, but recommending taking a single rogue level at 10 is awful advice.


That is the whole idea when building to TR. When you build for the purpose of getting a past life in you only, ever, build for L18. Then you sit there until you've got the XP for L20, take the last 2 levels and TR.
Hahaha I taught you that! In here! When you weren't doing that less than a month ago!
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/421864-Build-Request-Ranger-Past-Life
Surreal. Suffice to say I agree.


Taking artificer or rogue for 1 level isn't a bad idea. I appreciate the idea behind artificer at L1. I also stack all the monk levels up front and then put the TR class at the end. The reasons for this are simple -- monk gives some bonus feats, evasion and improved evasion, all of which I want as early as possible.
Sure, but a 1 level delay isn't a big deal and the OP wanted something similar to tempest trapmonkey. Trap skills, if you can fit them only losing a single level's delay is an obviously good decision. Von 5 Pugging / Shadow Knight (where the trap xp is worthwhile) / the odd handful of quests that are mildly unpleasant without a trapper make it worthwhile to me.



Comments others are making about benefits of the paladin class or fighter kensai or any other thing are just ways to get off track. When building explicitly for the purpose of a past life there is no need to look at those things because the character isn't sticking around long enough to justify them. A build that is just looking to get in a past life needs to stay focused on how to get in 20 levels as fast and painless as possible.

That fighter build is not too bad. I have no doubt it could get to 20 and has undeniably superior dps to the monk option. I much prefer the monk option, but it's not like cleaving / great cleaving for beacoup damage with self-heals from lots of cha-based paladin levels isn't going to be fast too.

To me, it lacks move speed and that's why I prefer the monk option, but I think the OP could reasonably choose it.


This is why I go with 9 monk/11 whatever. For me monk is an easy class to play with more benefits than any other class given my way of playing. I also prefer half-elf with cleric dilettante in order to access wand and scroll use. I personally don't feel that the benefits of being able to handle traps justifies the addition of artificer or rogue to the mix. I can use a hire to pull levers (arty dog) and with high reflex saves the character doesn't need to worry about traps.
Ok. I'm just not sure what you think you're losing by adding trapping capacity. Am I being unfair in suggesting it's just the 1 level of delay you're fretting about?

Oh, and H-Elf Cleric Dil is a lot of AP, which is fine if you don't have the option of UMD. But this build does for the minute sacrifice of one level's delay on monk abilities.

Also, hirelings are the worst. They add scaling, you can't summon them as needed at levers unless you're springing for gold seals. They mess up pulls and stealth and invis if you're dragging them through the dungeon. I am not on board with hirelings being on close to on par with summon-and-dismiss-at-will arti dogs.


From a leveling standpoint the XP bonus for trapping usually doesn't justify the time spent and the time used to get 10 levels is longer than the time spent getting 9. I want 9 levels of monk so that I have all of the basic needs covered and can start in on the past life class without being distracted.

Sure. Agreed that in most quests trapping isn't worthwhile. In the few it is though, it's pretty cool. It's also a free entry to a lot of pugs if you get bored of soloing. "Being distracted" isn't close to an actual con.


So, if I were going to go with the artificer/rogue suggestion I would actually take rogue at L10. This runs counter to common thinking but my feeling on this is that I want the 9 monk levels as fast as possible, trapping is of limited XP benefit, hires can do any switch pulling (arty dog replacement), so if I'm going to get distracted from my goal the time to allow it is at L10.

Yuuuck. I'm unsure how you conceive of 14 or so points being enough to cover search and disable device since at level 10 that's all of your points to bring only 1 of them up to speed. Playing catch-up in Paladin levels is going to mean you're not able to trap reliably until literally 18 or so if that.

Some of the earlier rubbish like Repossession, STK and Swiped Signet is also where you actually want trapping skills. Behind 1 level behind on 5% less movement speed or .5[1d6] is just not very significant.


Since I'd be waiting until L10 to take the trapper class that means I would want rogue instead of artificer in order to get the most skill points. I'd need the skill points to back fill search and disable. And, of course, I'd always be playing catch up with these skills -- although gear could help mitigate some of the lost skill points as could skill tomes.

You need gear anyway for trapping on a non-int based character. I really think Rogue at 10 is an irredeemably poor choice. Skill tomes... yeah... They don't kick in until the same level as stat tomes would, so you're looking at +3 from 11 - 15 and +4 from there till cap.

Making the enormous and unlikely assumption that this character has +3 and/or +4 Search and Disable Tomes available is probably wrong, but also won't suddenly vault his trapping skills into viability after 9 levels of neglect and not taking a trapper class at level 1.


IMO, however, being distracted with the trapper class just makes things unnecessarily cluttered. Trapping isn't needed at heroic levels, the character will never run epic content, so just stay focused on the end objective.
What is this 'cluttered' nonsense? You need:
-Search on your hotbar
-Thieves Tools
-A Search Item
-A DD Item
-An Int Item
That's it. Is that honestly worth factoring into a calculation about whether it's worthwhile?

I can't begin to conceive of how 'being distracted' could factor into taking trapping skills or not so I won't try as it would probably be offensive.



Anyway, that's my perspective on it and why I suggested 9 monk/11 whatever as the way to get in past lives when players are just leveling to 20 and then taking the TR.
Yeah. Okay. I personally would have just admitted that I was wrong and slotting in a level of trapper makes a ton of sense on this build.

EDIT: In no way taking away from the fact I think that's a terrible recommendation, taking 2 rogue levels back to back at 10 and 11 would actually fix the massive trapping skills deficit and still net a Paladin Past Life at 20 since 9/9/2 still results in a Pally life as Monk, like FvS, Artificer and Druid, is special and comes afterward.

I still much prefer the 1 Arti option obviously since a 1 level delay on Monk abilities from Character Levels 1-10 is nothing and you get a dog and UMD, but a second rogue level would make this H-Elf Cleric Dilettante suggestion marginally less ludicrous.

[droid327]

You suggested splashing barb on a paladin.

And you thought files installed themselves pre-fragmented :P we all make mistakes lol

[Therigar]

Oh I wasn't going to respond since I figured this thread was done, but recommending taking a single rogue level at 10 is awful advice.

It is awful advice. I just wouldn't bother with the trapper part at all. It doesn't serve any purpose and derails the single-minded pursuit of getting thru L20 and hitting the TR.

All I'm saying is that if a person has to have the trapper part I would not take it at L1 because it slows getting to monk 9.

Here's my thinking on this. People ask for advice all of the time about how to get an unwanted class to L20 so that they can immediately TR. Then people offer advice about how to build a character that will stick around and play some. But, the goal state is to just burn through XP as fast as possible and move on.

All of the added things that go into a character take you off track. Can you heal, forget your XP quest and come help with this quest over here. Can you trap, forget your XP quest and come help with this other quest over there.

I just feel that every extra thing that you add in to the build just encourages you to use it in lower XP quests, to delay or go slower in quests, and so on. If the real goal is level and reincarnate then just stick to that. The number of high XP heroic quests that need trap skills is zero. The number where it might be more useful than not is maybe two.

So why get distracted? I think you should not. If others think they should, or want to, that's fine. I just don't see that it is really needed.

As for the holding levels at 18, you take too much credit. The ranger discussion ran far afield from the simple task of getting to L20 and TRing. It probably should not have and I'll take blame for letting it. But, that was a different discussion.

[Therigar]

What did/do you do for Barbarian Past Lives?

There are 2 classes where monk/whatever cannot work -- barbarian and bard. I have not done either of these lives and I don't have any good answers for you.

Because I don't like caster classes I'm leaning towards rogue 2/something. I run a rogue/bard and it isn't bad so I could easily settle in there for bard. Barbarian is another issue. I might look at something like rogue 2/fighter 8/barbarian 8(10).

But, I haven't gotten there yet so really don't have a good answer for you.

Edit:

Just had a thought based on something I posted in a different thread. One barbarian solution might be fighter 10/ranger 8. Hold L18 and then when you have the XP for L20 take it to become fighter 10/ranger 8/barbarian 2. Now use a +5 LR to get to barbarian 7/fighter 7/ranger 6. Immediately TR and you'll have the barbarian past life.

This would work for me because I like melee characters. Fighter and ranger give enough synergy. Could even be cleric instead of ranger for self heals and buffs.

The reason this works is because past life is determined by the following if the levels are equal: 1) original classes in alphabetical order and then 2) new classes in the order they were added.

Because B for Barbarian is before F for Fighter (or C for Cleric) this would work.

[Therigar]

Hahaha I taught you that! In here! When you weren't doing that less than a month ago!
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/421864-Build-Request-Ranger-Past-Life

Actually, if you'd paid attention, I offered the exact same advice in the other thread regarding a 9/11 split:


One more thing, if you are only looking for the ranger past life I would seriously consider monk 9/ranger 11. Build and play as a standard monk build with WIS and DEX for AC, plenty of dodge, etc.

As I said, the 12/4/4 discussion went far afield from the original discussion there. And, the need to discuss holding XP at L18 wasn't really necessary as the discussion wasn't in the New Player forums like this one is. Meaning that you can nit pick that I didn't mention it but I don't think I really need to have said it in the build forums.

[Deathdefy]

Thought about leaving it, but can't.



All of the added things that go into a character take you off track. Can you heal, forget your XP quest and come help with this quest over here. Can you trap, forget your XP quest and come help with this other quest over there.

I just feel that every extra thing that you add in to the build just encourages you to use it in lower XP quests, to delay or go slower in quests, and so on. If the real goal is level and reincarnate then just stick to that. The number of high XP heroic quests that need trap skills is zero. The number where it might be more useful than not is maybe two.

So why get distracted? I think you should not. If others think they should, or want to, that's fine. I just don't see that it is really needed.


Including trap skills where you lose barely anything is a good idea. I'm astonished that your 2 arguments:
- you'll get distracted, and,
- trapping isn't THAT good
have convinced even yourself.

I'll share my trick for not getting distracted into doing inefficient things for xp that include trapping and randomly joining a party to play healer: "don't."

This argument that you should purposely avoid giving your character additional abilities so you don't get 'distracted into using them inefficiently' is going to make for some truly sub-optimal TR builds.

If you were gaining something more than a minute increase in move speed 1 level earlier, or more than .5[1d6] I would leave this alone, but it's a terrible philosophy for building a PL build. You should be as good as possible at every level upto and including 18 - saying 'no trapping' because then I might trap and it might be inefficient is an extraordinarily harsh judgment about a player's decision-making abilities.

Note though, I don't care overly much about trapping. Most of my TRs skip it, but if I can include it without losing much I obviously do.

XP wise, Trapping is good for:
STK part 3, Shadow Knight, Coal and Von 5 when solo. Probably others, maybe not.

When in a party, trapping is good xp in:
every single quest with traps which is about half the game.

I appreciate that's out of the scope of discussion for this single build if it actually will do nothing but solo, but I find even for primarily solo characters that's seldom the case.

Trap skills also increase safety in a bunch of decent xp quests like FoF, Foundation, Cry, Sane Aslyum, Monastery and a few others.

It's inconceivable to me to argue that including trap skills lowers xp efficiency. I've seen Mr. Cow's threads where he always got the trap bonuses and concluded it wasn't worthwhile as a rule. Sure.

But often it is worthwhile for safety or xp. Either because it's one of a handful of quests where it's good xp solo, or any time you're in a party, or any time the trap is dangerous.

This is too long again, but I'm actually trying to convince you, which hopefully is not a mistake.

[Deathdefy]

Actually, if you'd paid attention, I offered the exact same advice in the other thread regarding a 9/11 split:



As I said, the 12/4/4 discussion went far afield from the original discussion there. And, the need to discuss holding XP at L18 wasn't really necessary as the discussion wasn't in the New Player forums like this one is. Meaning that you can nit pick that I didn't mention it but I don't think I really need to have said it in the build forums.

Sure. Not bothered enough to click it, check dates or content of the discussion or anything of the like which I'd feel obliged to do if I wanted to argue this. Was just genuinely amused at your tone when I recalled telling you to build for 18 not long ago.

[Therigar]

Sure. Not bothered enough to click it, check dates or content of the discussion or anything of the like which I'd feel obliged to do if I wanted to argue this. Was just genuinely amused at your tone when I recalled telling you to build for 18 not long ago.

Well, I'm glad to be of entertainment value. :D

To the thread at hand, you are correct that my take is to just be simple minded and get 9 monk as soon as possible and then slog thru whatever is not wanted pretending all the while that you are a real monk. Call it the Pinocchio approach -- "I am a real boy...."

If OP, you, or others want to take a level of artificer first go ahead. I just don't see that the benefits are sufficient to justify spending a level there.

Edit:

As for convincing me about the value of trapping, if we were not discussing a build that is simply meant to get to 20 and TR I'd be more receptive. Players that don't have a specific goal state or that might be inclined to do more than immediately TR would get some benefit.

I just don't see it as necessary in this case. In fact, I don't regularly run most of the quests you listed when I'm just going for XP to TR -- I don't run STK at all, Coalescence Chamber only has 1 trap that doesn't turn off after the gate is opened and allowed to shut again, I can't remember ever soloing VoN 5 (although I solo VoN 3 w/o trapping), I don't run Shadow Knight.

And, these are examples of how players get distracted. There is absolutely no reason to be doing those quests if you are on a TR run when the goal is just to reach L20 and reincarnate.

Coalescence Chamber is only needed if you are flagging Shroud. Shroud isn't being run at level by (almost) anyone any more. So, no need going through the aggravation of the quest unless you really just love the quest. I don't think VoN 5 can be soloed since at some point you have to hit 6 switches -- 3 each in two different locations -- unless, of course, the quest has been changed. I have pre-built quest openers for Necropolis and skip all the starter quests and just do the final ones.

I'd go on but I think anyone reading gets the point.

Stopping off in these quests just serves to delay the relentless pursuit of XP.

OTOH, some people probably like those quests and prefer them over others so see them as essentials in their list of TR quests. I don't.

So, if we were talking about a character in general then I could see the point about trap skills and why to include them. But, for one that will level and TR immediately I see no point in it.

[psykopeta]

Well, I'm glad to be of entertainment value. :D

To the thread at hand, you are correct that my take is to just be simple minded and get 9 monk as soon as possible and then slog thru whatever is not wanted pretending all the while that you are a real monk. Call it the Pinocchio approach -- "I am a real boy...."

If OP, you, or others want to take a level of artificer first go ahead. I just don't see that the benefits are sufficient to justify spending a level there.

Edit:

As for convincing me about the value of trapping, if we were not discussing a build that is simply meant to get to 20 and TR I'd be more receptive. Players that don't have a specific goal state or that might be inclined to do more than immediately TR would get some benefit.

I just don't see it as necessary in this case. In fact, I don't regularly run most of the quests you listed when I'm just going for XP to TR -- I don't run STK at all, Coalescence Chamber only has 1 trap that doesn't turn off after the gate is opened and allowed to shut again, I can't remember ever soloing VoN 5 (although I solo VoN 3 w/o trapping), I don't run Shadow Knight.

And, these are examples of how players get distracted. There is absolutely no reason to be doing those quests if you are on a TR run when the goal is just to reach L20 and reincarnate.

Coalescence Chamber is only needed if you are flagging Shroud. Shroud isn't being run at level by (almost) anyone any more. So, no need going through the aggravation of the quest unless you really just love the quest. I don't think VoN 5 can be soloed since at some point you have to hit 6 switches -- 3 each in two different locations -- unless, of course, the quest has been changed. I have pre-built quest openers for Necropolis and skip all the starter quests and just do the final ones.

I'd go on but I think anyone reading gets the point.

Stopping off in these quests just serves to delay the relentless pursuit of XP.

OTOH, some people probably like those quests and prefer them over others so see them as essentials in their list of TR quests. I don't.

So, if we were talking about a character in general then I could see the point about trap skills and why to include them. But, for one that will level and TR immediately I see no point in it.

good to see u ignore the highest xp quests in their lvl range (at least for me that i do stk at lvl 5), knight just in opts gives more xp than any other lvl 8 quest, and traps in coal are random

btw, also have an opener for crypts, just for the farming, not like i love losing xp

also there are 2 ways to lvl:

with pots - the higer xp/quest the higher benefit u take from pot

w/o pots- the higher xp/quest the less quests u have to repeat(and repeating quests right now is a good waste of time) lol u don't need to repeat any quest anymore, and u're getting for 1st elite runs more xp than repeating any quest of same lvl, only exceptions are von3, SC, and not sure if etk & mona because have tr'ed twice since the update but haven't repeated em

also, trapping at epic w/o some investment isn't working anymore (lol i've see posts of ppl complaining about the dc of search/disable device because their "awesome trapper with 1 point in search and disable" wasn't able to get em... and i'm getting critical success at lvl 19 quests on elite being 18 with my +10 serach/disable gear in pally and barb lives after update, yes, not gonna waste more slots in the tr cache, with that ml9 stuff it's enough)

ignoring the 20% daily extra xp is a little fail, ignoring the xp extra for trapping is a little fail, if we gather both, we have a big fail

[Clatterfist]

I did a paladin life as a straight-classed warforged greatsword wielder, and I had an absolute blast. It's a very strong starter with plenty of durability and hitting power, although I felt he tapered off a bit towards the end. Still, high ease of use with good saves and self-sufficiency. I went for Knight of the Chalice, pre-enhancement patch. It "should" work even better now, especially if you're just going to level it to 20 and move on. Maybe not as optimised as some things you could cook up, but it ought to showcase the class for you in an entertaining and unconventional way!

[Therigar]

also, trapping at epic w/o some investment isn't working anymore

Sorry if I come across as angry, but this is the exact sort of thing that I'm talking about. We have a discussion about getting a past life and immediately taking the TR. Now we have posters adding comments about epic levels.

How stupid are we? We are never running epic content. But, because we talk about adding an unneeded element to the build we are off track.

That is EXACTLY the thing I warned about and that I was told players were capable of controlling for themselves. Only, the obvious proof is that players do not control that for themselves -- they are in fact distracted from the conversation and the goals of the build by the addition of the trapping skills.

Just do not do it. Don't add the unneeded skills and stay entirely focused on getting through the unwanted life and immediately TRing.

[Therigar]

good to see u ignore the highest xp quests in their lvl range (at least for me that i do stk at lvl 5), knight just in opts gives more xp than any other lvl 8 quest, and traps in coal are random

Like I said, I'm not doing STK when I'm just blowing through for XP. As a quest chain it is rather lengthy so the XP per minute is low. It isn't always about XP at the end of the quest. Sometimes it is about how fast can I get things done just so I can be finished with this life I'm on.

I will concede that STK has been on my list of quests in the past just because it is easy. When it is I don't run part 2 until L6 or part 3 until L7. I'm always 2 character levels higher than the base quest level on normal when I'm running just for XP.

Shadow Knight has never been on my quest list for efficient leveling. Neither has Coalescence Chamber.

Regarding CC, the traps are sort of random but.... Pull lever, let gate close, move on. The traps are all one time traps that you never need to touch -- all but one of them. The first trap is persistent. That's it. But, here's the real issue with the argument about CC -- it is a quest you never should be running to start with. There is no reason to run it. You can get more XP per minute running other content.

Now, let's shift the conversation a bit to the U19 changes to XP penalties. The goal state with the changes seems to be to force players to run more content. Only, that isn't really happening as far as I can tell. I still see the same old LFMs up and I personally am still running the same quests as before. I'm not running off to do some quest I would not normally do because of the change in how XP is awarded or penalized.

What I'm doing instead is switching among characters and letting XP penalties decay. Then I'm just running the quests I prefer again anyway.

Now, that might not turn out to be the fastest way to get through a life. But, I'm not seeing efficient leveling guides for post U19. Maybe they are out there and I'm just missing them with how the forums are set up now. Lots of posts come and go that I never get the chance to see.

But, from what I can see the XP changes in U19 haven't changed the quest selections for anyone.

[Deathdefy]

As for convincing me about the value of trapping, if we were not discussing a build that is simply meant to get to 20 and TR I'd be more receptive. Players that don't have a specific goal state or that might be inclined to do more than immediately TR would get some benefit.

I just don't see it as necessary in this case. In fact, I don't regularly run most of the quests you listed when I'm just going for XP to TR -- I don't run STK at all, Coalescence Chamber only has 1 trap that doesn't turn off after the gate is opened and allowed to shut again, I can't remember ever soloing VoN 5 (although I solo VoN 3 w/o trapping), I don't run Shadow Knight.

And, these are examples of how players get distracted. There is absolutely no reason to be doing those quests if you are on a TR run when the goal is just to reach L20 and reincarnate.

Coalescence Chamber is only needed if you are flagging Shroud. Shroud isn't being run at level by (almost) anyone any more. So, no need going through the aggravation of the quest unless you really just love the quest. I don't think VoN 5 can be soloed since at some point you have to hit 6 switches -- 3 each in two different locations -- unless, of course, the quest has been changed. I have pre-built quest openers for Necropolis and skip all the starter quests and just do the final ones.

I'd go on but I think anyone reading gets the point.

Stopping off in these quests just serves to delay the relentless pursuit of XP.

OTOH, some people probably like those quests and prefer them over others so see them as essentials in their list of TR quests. I don't.

So, if we were talking about a character in general then I could see the point about trap skills and why to include them. But, for one that will level and TR immediately I see no point in it.

Yeeesh.

I meant Von 3. If you're not getting a free +10 or 15% from traps for that you're doing it wrong.

That said, Von 5 is also great xp but pugs can deform due to lack of a trapper so you can literally pickup a quick 60k you wouldn't otherwise get.

Fine, skip coal. There are plenty of others.

You're dead wrong on this. Trapping increases xp on a quick PL run.

[Deathdefy]

That is EXACTLY the thing I warned about and that I was told players were capable of controlling for themselves. Only, the obvious proof is that players do not control that for themselves -- they are in fact distracted from the conversation and the goals of the build by the addition of the trapping skills.

I missed this gem.

I agree the usability of trap skills in epics isn't germane to a PL build.

I can see that you're trying to vindicate your ridiculous claim that 'trap skills distract you while levelling' by saying another poster is 'being distracted by thinking about epic levels in making a build'.

It's an utterly differently thing that doesn't impact at all on whether or not trap skills are useful while heroic levelling, but full points for trying to be sneaky.

[Therigar]

Yeeesh.

I meant Von 3. If you're not getting a free +10 or 15% from traps for that you're doing it wrong.

That said, Von 5 is also great xp but pugs can deform due to lack of a trapper so you can literally pickup a quick 60k you wouldn't otherwise get.

Fine, skip coal. There are plenty of others.

You're dead wrong on this. Trapping increases xp on a quick PL run.

I'm done responding to giant nit-picking walls of text with later edits.

I sort of suspected you meant VoN3 and not VoN5. OTOH, there's enough space between 3 and 5 on the keyboard that it isn't safe to assume you just made a mistake. ;)

VoN5 is hardly ever done at level so the 60k comment is pretty much pointless. When done the trapper is usually the downfall of the group. So having one that is capable is worthwhile. OTOH it is a L10 quest so best done for XP at character L12. Assuming that a player even ran this quest at level for XP they could still go the rogue at L10+ and handle the trapping requirements. In other words, it doesn't help the argument that you should add trapping skills to the build.

VoN3 can be done easily without trap skills. That's just a fact.

The situation here is that I am not wrong. Oddly, neither are you. It is really a case of what is it that a person wants out of the character.

If you want the trap ability then take it. Like I repeatedly say, there is no need for it. Like you've observed, the XP benefit has, in the past, been shown to be an illusion -- the time spent reduces the XP per minute so that it is, at best, a wash and at worst actually a drain on time spent leveling.

Is that true now with the U19 changes? I don't know of anyone who has blown through a life from 1 to 20 in a speed leveling exercise. Like I said earlier, I don't know of any post U19 leveling guides.

But, you (and not just you, others as well) keep citing quests and reasons why trapping is good yet the examples just illustrate my point that the ability to trap pulls characters away from the simple task of getting XP so they can immediately TR.

Fine on CC, there are others -- really? Which ones?

The only quest in the list you've cited that I run for speedy XP is VoN3. Getting the traps there is, in fact, a bonus and worth getting if you can. It is a L9 quest run by me at L11. Coincidentally, if I decided I wanted the traps I could go 9 monk/2 rogue (as you pointed out) and have full trapping ability there*. OTOH, not getting the traps isn't going to kill the XP there and the quest can be run without ever needing to disable a single trap.

Bottom line here is that you are making an argument that really has no factual basis to it to say that players should delay the 9 monk levels for a level in a trapping class. But, when called on to demonstrate that trapping is needed you are citing quests that don't need the traps done, won't (or at least should not) be run anyway, or that will be run late enough that you could add the trap skills late without impact.

So what we are discussing is NOT whether trapping is really needed or good for the build but instead your preference for a skill set and some need to be RIGHT and have the other person (me) be WRONG. Only, it isn't a right/wrong situation. If you feel the need to trap then take the trapper class.

I don't. I happen to know that trapping is not needed and, as other posters have adequately shown by their inadvertent additions to the thread, players will in fact be distracted if they add the ability to the character and pulled off target.

*The 9/2/9 works for the paladin past life because monks were added after the original character classes. As a result paladin is recognized ahead of monk for class icon and past life at reincarnation.

[Therigar]

I missed this gem.

I agree the usability of trap skills in epics isn't germane to a PL build.

I can see that you're trying to vindicate your ridiculous claim that 'trap skills distract you while levelling' by saying another poster is 'being distracted by thinking about epic levels in making a build'.

It's an utterly differently thing that doesn't impact at all on whether or not trap skills are useful while heroic levelling, but full points for trying to be sneaky.

Look, I get it that you have two needs -- first to say mean things about people you don't agree with and second to be perceived as being right.

But the situation is that posters are distracted from the goal state and you've done nothing to show that the trapping skills are needed. This means that my concerns are not ridiculous but instead based on observation of what people are in fact doing.

You have not named a single quest where taking the trap skill at L1 and delaying the monk levels actually benefits a character in speed leveling to L20. The nearest thing offered has been STK but even that is misleading since STK is not actually the highest XP L5 quest in the game AND the number of traps typically disarmed there is 4 for zero impact on XP (the traps normally disabled are the poison/acid, fire on ladder and fire+spikes before minotaur fight -- it takes 5 traps disabled to get any XP bonus). But the situation with STK is that the pure monk running that quest can just ignore the traps and time them so that they have no effect.

Every other example you give is on a quest that either should never be run or that can be done by waiting on the trapper levels.

Those are the facts of the game. I'm sorry that you have trouble understanding them.

[Deathdefy]

VoN3 can be done easily without trap skills. That's just a fact.

Agreed. But it's xp can be effortlessly increased by 10-15%. Also, that force trap is nasty on elite and has certainly killed characters of mine who rolled poorly even with evasion.



The situation here is that I am not wrong. Oddly, neither are you. It is really a case of what is it that a person wants out of the character.

Conciliatory rubbish.

You are wrong. The question isn't "is it necessary?". It's not. It's is it optimal xp/min if you include trapping on a build that can get it relatively painlessly.

The answer is 'yes'.



If you want the trap ability then take it. Like I repeatedly say, there is no need for it. Like you've observed, the XP benefit has, in the past, been shown to be an illusion -- the time spent reduces the XP per minute so that it is, at best, a wash and at worst actually a drain on time spent leveling.

I said no such thing. I said always doing traps if you are always solo reduces xp/min as proved by MrCow.

If you apply any sort of discretion on which quests you bother to trap on it increases xp/min.



But, you (and not just you, others as well) keep citing quests and reasons why trapping is good yet the examples just illustrate my point that the ability to trap pulls characters away from the simple task of getting XP so they can immediately TR.

Fine on CC, there are others -- really? Which ones?

I gave a list above.

Sure though: Sane Aslyum, STK part 3, Shadow Knight, Von 3, Von 4, some GH: Feast or Famine, Foundation, Cry for Help.

Seriously though? That's off the top of my head.
It is an absolute no brainer that there are a significant number of quests:
- with traps that can be disarmed for xp that will increase your xp/min OR
- traps that can be disarmed to significantly decrease chance of death like Sane Aslyum, thereby increasing xp/min on average OR
- that will increase xp/min because you are in a capable party (every quest with traps)



The only quest in the list you've cited that I run for speedy XP is VoN3. Getting the traps there is, in fact, a bonus and worth getting if you can. It is a L9 quest run by me at L11. Coincidentally, if I decided I wanted the traps I could go 9 monk/2 rogue (as you pointed out) and have full trapping ability there*. OTOH, not getting the traps isn't going to kill the XP there and the quest can be run without ever needing to disable a single trap.

You concede you can up the xp/mind on Von 3 with trapping skills which is my point. I have no idea what the filler in that paragraph is there for.



So what we are discussing is NOT whether trapping is really needed or good for the build but instead your preference for a skill set and some need to be RIGHT and have the other person (me) be WRONG. Only, it isn't a right/wrong situation. If you feel the need to trap then take the trapper class.

It is a right / wrong.

I say: "having trap skills can increase your xp/min on a TR run". You say "no it can't".

There is no way we both are correct.


*The 9/2/9 works for the paladin past life because monks were added after the original character classes. As a result paladin is recognized ahead of monk for class icon and past life at reincarnation.
I will never understand your penchant for re-explaining, to me, the things I say, to you.

[Deathdefy]

Look, I get it that you have two needs -- first to say mean things about people you don't agree with and second to be perceived as being right.

But the situation is that posters are distracted from the goal state and you've done nothing to show that the trapping skills are needed. This means that my concerns are not ridiculous but instead based on observation of what people are in fact doing.

You have not named a single quest where taking the trap skill at L1 and delaying the monk levels actually benefits a character in speed leveling to L20. The nearest thing offered has been STK but even that is misleading since STK is not actually the highest XP L5 quest in the game AND the number of traps typically disarmed there is 4 for zero impact on XP (the traps normally disabled are the poison/acid, fire on ladder and fire+spikes before minotaur fight -- it takes 5 traps disabled to get any XP bonus). But the situation with STK is that the pure monk running that quest can just ignore the traps and time them so that they have no effect.

Every other example you give is on a quest that either should never be run or that can be done by waiting on the trapper levels.

Those are the facts of the game. I'm sorry that you have trouble understanding them.

I'm unsure what I said that hurt your feelings. Apologies.

I though, do care about the New Player Forums. I do care that bad advice like 'taking trap skills on a PL build decreases xp/min' is being sprouted.

Sidenote: Are you now conceding that you'd include trap skills on your build, just that at level 10 and 11 instead of 1?

EDIT:

"Those are the facts of the game. I'm sorry that you have trouble understanding them." I think you may be projecting some things onto your perception of me!

[Therigar]

And Fin. There. The best past-life paladin build ever to grace these forums.

I just realized that the arti level build was yours. No wonder you feel the need to argue for it so strongly. After all, it is the "best past-life paladin build ever to grace these forums."

I hadn't realized we were all suppose to grovel and thank you for gracing us with your wisdom. Mea culpa. :rolleyes:

[Therigar]

Are you now conceding that you'd include trap skills on your build, just that at level 10 and 11 instead of 1?

What I said was that IF I were to include trapping I'd take it at L10 with rogue and not with arti at L1. That is no concession. It is simply repeating what has already been posted.

IIRC you took time to tell everyone how stupid that idea was and I even posted that I agreed it was a bad idea.

It is a bad idea to take trapping on the build -- period.

BUT, if a person has to go with a bad idea better to take it at L10 and L11 after the monk levels are in than to take it at L1.

Like I said earlier. Neither of us is wrong in a pure right/wrong sense. If a person really wants the trap skills go ahead and take them. Take them at L1 if that makes you happy.

It just isn't necessary for the build.

[Therigar]

I think you may be projecting some things onto your perception of me!

If you understood the facts of the game you wouldn't be trying to convince me that taking trapping on this build is worthwhile or that doing so won't have the impact of distracting players from the single-minded pursuit of fast XP so they can TR.

That isn't projecting anything. It is just observing what you've been posting and how it is not supported by the way the game is built or any of the quest needs for speed leveling.

[Deathdefy]

I just realized that the arti level build was yours. No wonder you feel the need to argue for it so strongly. After all, it is the "best past-life paladin build ever to grace these forums."

I hadn't realized we were all suppose to grovel and thank you for gracing us with your wisdom. Mea culpa. :rolleyes:

That was humour. Remember humour? I banged that thing out in about 5 minutes. IT TAKES LUCK OF HEROES!

I'm done. You are wrong. Trap skills increase xp/min on a PL build if used judiciously. In fact that's so ridiculously self-evident that I'm astonished I've written as many words as I have on this.

If you feel the need to include another 8 paragraphs debunking me, feel free. Hopefully people can read this exchange and make up their own mind.

[Therigar]

Hopefully people can read this exchange and make up their own mind.

That will occur regardless.

You cited quests where the trap skill is useful, they amount to 2 that are in the list of quests I have historically run when speed leveling, one of those I'm not running any longer, the second of those I don't disable enough traps for a bonus.

When called upon to produce quests where trapping increases XP without slowing quest completion (and thus costing XP per minute) you have given no response at all -- to the contrary you cite work by Mr Cow that showed doing traps was almost never worthwhile.

Adding trapping to the build isn't helpful to getting to L20 faster because it delays getting the 9 monk levels and has almost no use in the quests that a player ought to be running if they are in a hurry to get through an unwanted life.

Counting the quote from your post this is 6 paragraphs.

This is paragraph 7 and I'm done now, missed out on 8 paragraphs, I'll try harder next time.

[Therigar]

Trap skills increase xp/min on a PL build if used judiciously.

I don't think this means what you seem to think it means.

Judiciously amounts to 6 quests out of the more than 70 quests in my TR quest list, that is less than 10% of the quests. Of those 2 are done before L12.

Since judiciously equates to "almost never" there's no reason to delay the 9 monk levels by taking trapping at L1.

This is the part you don't seem to understand.

Yes, any idiot can look at the XP screen and see that a trapping bonus has been applied. But, when you actually work out the time and effort spent to disable traps against the speed of completion you start to recognize that you get done faster and earn more XP over time if you don't stop to disable traps.

This is why the list of quests I follow only has 6 quests in it where there's a note about going for disabling bonuses. It isn't that there aren't traps in the other quests -- it is that there isn't enough value in trapping to warrant the time spent getting the bonuses.

Look, 8 paragraphs (including your quote). :)

[psykopeta]

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425151-Cha-based-paladins-are-gimp!?p=5096413#post5096413

looks like works

[droid327]

Yes, any idiot can look at the XP screen and see that a trapping bonus has been applied. But, when you actually work out the time and effort spent to disable traps against the speed of completion you start to recognize that you get done faster and earn more XP over time if you don't stop to disable traps.


Well doesn't that depend on a lot of mitigating factors?

-Amount of traps varies greatly between quests, but the lower number, the easier it is to hit bonus thresholds, of course. Not having to go into optional areas for traps also is preferable.

-Search/disable times were reduced in U20, meaning traps don't slow you down as much as they used to. You can also get auto-search with Elf, speeds you even more.

-In terms of XP/min, trapping usually beats Ransacking. Say it takes, conservatively, 10 seconds to search and disable a trap. That's 1 minute for every 6 traps you need to disable to hit a milestone. The XP/min depends on the number of traps in the quest, and the base XP...but I'd call 1000+ XP/min a good measure of being "worth it" to do.

Just for an example, look at a popular pack, GH (heroic)...10 quests total, 5 have no traps. Of the other 5, you get Tamper at 2, 3, 3, 2, and ~10. On Hard, they respectively give ~8k, 5k, 5k, 4k, 4k, so you're talking about ~800, 500, 500, 400, 400 XP for a couple of seconds' worth of time, giving XP/min of 2400, 1000, 1000, 1200, and 240. So 40% of GH is realistically "worth it" even just for Tamper, and the XP/min gets better if you go the extra couple for Neutralization/Debilitation.

I'd challenge your assertion that only 6 quests are worthwhile to de-trap, if there are 4 just in GH alone...

[Therigar]

Someone is missing the point here. Ransack isn't worth it in any quest. Comparing ransack with traps just shows that you are not really running quests with the purpose of speedy completions for maximum XP/minute.

In a discussion about how a player hates a particular character class the objective is to get the pain over with as quickly as possible. That means hurry up and finish, get the XP, move on.

Speed running for XP does not include ransack, it does not include trapping bonuses. The number of quests that do include trapping bonuses will depend somewhat on what your particular list of quests happens to be. But, for me, that is 6 quests total on the old list pre U19.

Post U19 it will probably drop to 4 quests due to the way the repetition penalties now work.

You can always find quests where you can get the trapping bonus. But doing so feeds right back into my main objection -- running those quests is almost always taking you away from the primary mission of XP/minute.

Here a while back Turbine changed the random drops out of breakables. Any idea why they did that? Had something to do with the fact that there are all these breakables in quests but nobody takes the time to break them. If you've paid really close attention when the change was first made the drop rates were particularly high. Now, not so much so (although the loot is still, usually, better than it was).

Now, why do you think auto spot and fast search/disable was added? It is because everyone understands that nobody bothers to disable traps. Turbine's thinking is that if they make it faster maybe they can con people into actually using the skill.

And, TBH, in most situations that is fine. Just not in this situation where the OP asks for a paladin past life in the least painful way. That least painful way is to go 9 monk/11 paladin and TR. The faster he gets 9 monk the faster he gets thru the 11 paladin. And that means the faster he can TR.

[droid327]

I get what you're saying, if you're just after the PL, you're just looking to zerg through your life as quickly as possible. I'm saying that trapping, in the appropriate quests, actually improves your total XP/minute, and will lessen your overall PL zerg time. It increases your XP/min on many quests over not trapping.

Also, keep in mind that you cant just look at XP/min from when you zone in a quest to when you complete it. There's downtime between quests that increase your total-time-to-TR; you cant simply jump instantly from one quest to the next as though they were all Deneith Sewers. Improving your XP total gained while you're actually in a quest lessens the effects of time lost while you're going between quests.

Eg, lets assume you run 2 quests, each taking 15 mins, for 10,000 XP (numbers purely arbitrary). That's 666 XP/min. If it takes you 1 min to disable enough traps for an extra 500 XP: 10,500/16 min=656, you've reduced your XP/min, apparently. But now consider you also spend 20 minutes during that play session NOT in a quest - moving, loading, AH, guild buffing, chatting, vendoring, crafting, consulting DDO Wiki, whatever. Your total XP/min for the play session is 20,000 XP/50 min=400. If you'd spent the 2 extra minutes to disable traps, you'd have 21,000/52=403.

Obviously not a big difference with the arbitrary numbers I just came up with, but it demonstrates the effect. If you're not hardcore grinding in quests every moment you're logged on with a character, it may pay to trap - and the more casual you are, the more it pays.

[Deathdefy]

Through sheer coincidence I was about to TR into a trap capable character when we had this conversation. I made a note of which quests I thought it was worthwhile to get the traps for until I realized that my target audience of unconvinced people was probably in the low single figures.

What's worth trapping or not does depend slightly on whether you're a race with nothing is hidden, your base speed through a quest, your AoE capabilties and access to invisibility.

For my purposes, I was a drow with Nothing is Hidden (which I think is an obvious enhancement to take on any trapping build through the heroic levels then removing it for epics or TRing).

Nothing is Hidden removes the 2.5 second search animation, meaning you're just looking at 2.5 seconds for the disable device animation (slightly less if you're good at pulling away just before the animation finishes).

I'll add thoughts on many of them since looking just at the numbers isn't super informative if you're not intimately familiar with the quest:
As a rule, traps are almost always worth doing if they're on the path you're on anyway.

2 general scenarios for bravery bonus runs:
#1 -
10% aggression, 50% tome of learning, 50% bravery, 80% first time elite, 100% base, 10% flawless, 10% no-reentry= 310% exp... if that's unfair, hurl abuse.
2 traps for 10% is 5 seconds. So:
10 + 50 + 50 + 80 + 100 + 10+ 10 + 10 = 320.

Traps will be worthwhile if:
320% total xp / 10% traps = 32.
so 5 seconds x 32 = 160 seconds = 2 minutes 40 seconds.

If a quest with 2 traps for 10%, even first time elite, takes longer than 2 minutes 40, it's worth doing the traps.

#2 -
10% aggression, 50% tome of learning, 50% bravery, 80% first time elite, 100% base, 10% flawless, 10% no-re-entry = 310% exp... again, if that's unfair, hurl abuse.
1 trap for 8% is 2.5 seconds. So:
10 + 50 + 50 + 80 + 100 + 10 + 10 + 8 = 318.
318% total xp / 8% traps = 39.75
so 2.5 seconds x 39.75 = 99.375 seconds = 1 minute and 39 seconds.

If a quest with 1 trap for 8%, even first time elite, takes longer than 1 min 39, it's worth doing the traps. Even for literally the very first time on elite.


If you're getting ransack or conquest, then your time is going to be over 3 minutes and that's a near-guarantee traps will be worth it.

Also, that's on Bravery. If you're farming anything with something resembling a trap, then don't be silly.


The list:

Level 2:
-Kobold's New Ringleader (1 - 8%) <-- the fire trap near the end. Absolute no-brainer to do it even assuming a perfect zerg. I don't think it's possible to do sub-2 minutes, so yep.
-Durk's (1 - 8%) <-- Worth it if you know you are still fast enough to kill the 2nd chieftain and get to the safe spot before the oozes catch up and frustrate your recall process. On Elite it's fine; on Normal, weirdly, the slower response time of the oozes makes this harder so I wouldn't do it.
-Smuggler's Warehouse (2 - 10%) <-- Yuck, I know. But if you're doing the ruby hunt since you're one-and-done-ing anyway it's a no-brainer.
-Retrieve the Stolen Goods (1 - 8%) <-- Worth it. Gross quest chain though since you have to 'protect the crate' which is hard now too.


Level 3:
-WW Pt 1 (2 - 8%) <-- First acid trap, then first fire trap. The final trap is too out of the way and involves opening a door.
-Cats Pt 2 (1 - 8%) <-- The 'master key' spikes. Obviously worth it.
-STK Pt 1 (2 - 10%) <-- The spike traps near the end. It's a long-ish quest and again a no-brainer.

Level 4:
-Stolen Signet (4 - 15%) <-- If you're doing it, the acid traps near the beginning are worth it due to the quest's length. You can not disarm the 2 easily avoidable traps later and still get the full bonus.
-Tangleroot Pt 3 (2 - 8%) <-- Worthwhile on numbers alone, but also is faster than throwing things at the hobs from the ledge below, and safer than just bouncing through too.
-Depths of Darkness (1 - 8%) <-- Depends on speed and if you've aggro'd the hobgoblins behind the secret door.
-Depths of Doom (2 - 10%)* <-- The second trap is slightly out of the way, near a mushroom, but the quest is longish so still worth it.
-Proof is in the poison (1/2 - 8%) <-- This thing is a marathon (and therefore trapping is obviously worthwhile). Disarming just the fire is fine if you know the safe spots for jumping around the spikes below.
-Bookbinder Rescue <-- Does it matter? You want to disarm these.
-Reposession <-- Weird optional thing gives you some xp. Reading the dialogue and using reasoning takes similar time to disarming anyway so it's a boost.

Level 5:
-Crimson Heart (skulls - map dependent - upto 15%) <-- I think disarm as you go is probably optimal for xp/min.
-Sanguine Heart (zombies - 5 - 15%) <-- All of them are on the way. 2 to the Right leading to often-spawning Vessel, 1 on the Left leading to often-spawning vessel. 1 near central shrine. 1 other on the way somewhere. Long enough that it's always going to be worth it.
-Sorrowdusk Pt 4 (1 - 8%) <-- The one after the bridge. The risk of death means this is not worthwhile in Pt 3, but you have to cross it in Pt 4.

Level 6:
-Stinkvault's Mine (4 - 15%) <-- It takes like 4 hours. Definitely worth it.
-Caged Trolls (1 - 8%) <-- Any single one that's on the way will do.
-Valak's (3 - 10%) <-- Weirdly, this quest, while not great, isn't THAT horrific any more. If you're here obviously do them. Was 7387xp for 12 mins for me.

Level 7:
-Bargain of Blood (2 - 8%) <-- Duh.
-The Tide Turns (2 - 10%) <-- Duh.
-Tangleroot Pt 10 (2 - 8%) <-- Final Tangleroot. Probably a borderline call if I'm honest, but worthwhile for me since I can't see how to invis-zerg it safely without risking red alert due to the location of the central corridor and key bearers.
-Taming the Flames (2 - 10%) <-- Duh.
-The Graverobber (1 - 8%) <-- Duh.

Not worth it unless you are a very cautious player or going slowly through the quest due to unfamiliarity or your character being a 'late-bloomer':
-Chamber of Insanity
-Prove your Worth
-Purge the Heretics
-Ruined Halls <-- arguably worth doing for added safety.
-Mirra's
-Gwylan's (14 - 15%) <-- safety means I'm always going to do this. Gwylan's is only great xp in a group anyway in which case your sole job is trapping for xp which shoudl be worthwhile.
-Xoriat (7 - 15%) <-- If you're xp zerging, don't get any traps, invis-jump past the skeletal archers and traps and you should live if you time it well. If you're in a pug demanding you get the optional (all pugs ever), then it's worth it.

Anyway, that's over 20 quests that I do actually run every life, some of them I even farm like Durk's and Kobold's New Ringleader. These are the point of my argument and sufficient proof that taking trap skills on a TR are worthwhile. I also suspect the traps from Von 3 and the GH walk-ups alone give a few hundred k xp overall but they're outside the argument about trap skills from level 1 or from level 10.

There are a few extras I don't run unless I'm looking for variety on a PL since one-and-done-ing makes a still very fast TR. I don't rest my argument on that. I appreciate that it's faster to ignore them outright, but as a human, and knowing other people are also human, sometimes it is nice to do other quests, and in those quests I can mitigate some of the xp I lose from not having Bloody Crypt make my eyes bleed.

I'm not going to insult anyone's intelligence by continuing this experiment since trapping for xp gets exponentially more worthwhile the longer the quest and the higher the base xp, which also correlate at least somewhat with higher level quests.

TL;DR Trapping for xp from level 1 is worthwhile on a Past Life. Trapping from a later point, like level 10 or so is also fine, but necessitates 2 entire levels of rogue, removes artificer from the equation, wastes of bunch of skill points precludes UMD.



On the macro concerns about overall efficiency:
- Even within a quest, assuming that's the only time playing the game, never wandering between quests, or buffing, or anything like that, the quests I list are still worthwhile. A huge component of even PL zergs is spend not-in-quests and that should be factored into whether trapping xp is worthwhile.
- Safety. Traps can kill even evasion characters on a 1, or put them into awkward situations.
- Groups. Often I am in a group that is competent. In those groups I should trap while they go on ahead.
- Ransack xp penalties. Don't affect trapping bonus. The more you farm Von 3, Kobold's New Ringleader, Durk's, WW, or what have you, the better the static trapping bonus becomes.

This isn't a remotely balanced debate. I worry that repeatedly posting makes it appear that way, but c'est la vie.

[Therigar]

Good responses and interesting last couple of posts.

Regarding time spent between quests, I've never thought about it in that manner. I'm not sure that the argument is particularly persuasive considering the real XP of quests. Still, if that seems a legitimate reason to delay getting in the 9 monk levels then people will no doubt choose that route.

Regarding the quest list, it really illustrates how differently we go about things. Just starting with the low level quests I would never run Smuggler's Warehouse or Catacombs on a pure XP speed run. Same for Bookbinder, Bargain of Blood.... Well, you get the idea.

I guess that a lot of it depends on what quests you are choosing to run and why.

In any case, I still feel that it is not worth delaying the 9 monk levels and that if a person really feels obligated to adding trapping that it is better to add it at L10 in this case. After all, we're talking paladin which is ahead of monk on the past life list. So monk 9/paladin 9/trapper 2 still works for the past life.

[EllisDee37]

Someone is missing the point here. Ransack isn't worth it in any quest.Well, it's worth it in VON3. I don't think I've ever seen a VON3 xp speed farm not get ransack.

[psykopeta]

Well, it's worth it in VON3. I don't think I've ever seen a VON3 xp speed farm not get ransack.

i shouldn't bother quoting someone that in the same thread says he's only after xp/min, then says he stops playing to wait for ransack penalty fade, and then keeps saying he's only after xp/min

actually not sure if that guy is talking about preu19 or has some fanatism with monk 9

post u19 speed farm means get all optionals (unless breakables, only in 1st run because the daily playthrough and i would avoid it even in some quests too because there're too many breakables lol) asap, as example tear, delera2, delera4, von3, wk, vol, and dunno what more popular speedy quests could i say

keep in mind that guy forgot the most important thing for his speed xp/min, xp pots, also when was the last time he tr'ed? how many hours did he need? and that stuff that use to say "if no screenshot that never happened"

[Vellrad]

I skipped thread, so sorry if I'm repeating someone.
For my paladin past life, I'm going to play a pure wizard and then use +20 heart they gave us :]

[Therigar]

i shouldn't bother quoting someone that in the same thread says he's only after xp/min, then says he stops playing to wait for ransack penalty fade, and then keeps saying he's only after xp/min

actually not sure if that guy is talking about preu19 or has some fanatism with monk 9

post u19 speed farm means get all optionals (unless breakables, only in 1st run because the daily playthrough and i would avoid it even in some quests too because there're too many breakables lol) asap, as example tear, delera2, delera4, von3, wk, vol, and dunno what more popular speedy quests could i say

keep in mind that guy forgot the most important thing for his speed xp/min, xp pots, also when was the last time he tr'ed? how many hours did he need? and that stuff that use to say "if no screenshot that never happened"

You don't need to avoid using my name, I'm a big boy and can take criticism. :)

Post U19 my habit is to switch between characters when I'm in the mood for just gaining levels. I have 19 characters on 2 accounts. One of those is a mule (at least for now), 1 is parked at level to open content for the others, 2 are at L20+ and could TR but won't because 9 are already on a 2d or later life.

I don't normally worry about how long it takes to get to L20 because I get side tracked a lot. I build characters just to see if it can be done or I hang out at level cap because I know that the new content will be for epic characters.

But, when I am needing to get through levels quickly I do what I'll be doing this week, I team up with my son and we run content as fast as we can to get the most XP in the shortest amount of time. This week it will be Gianthold and Vale of Twilight quests on his L13 ranger and my L16 cleric and L14 ranger with me dual boxing. Our purpose will be to level the cleric to L20.

And, because we cannot play 24 hours a day we will end up taking most of the week gaming in short stretches. I'll get the cleric to L20 so that I can let my son use her while I run some tests in eElite Cabal. After that we will come back to his and my rangers and finish getting them to L20. He will go on and run epic and I will TR.

So my purposes are a lot different from the OP's. And, with so many characters to work with at any time, if I have a life I don't want to run I just let it sit until I feel like leveling that character. Unlike a lot of players, I'm not stuck with only 3 or 4 choices. Like a lot of players, I have enough alternates that I can pick and choose what I'm going to run.

My responses to OP are based on the notion of getting through an unwanted life as quickly as possible. But at the end of the day, I really have no investment in whatever they decide to do. I think I said that several times in the thread.

Neither do I have any investment in what you, or any other reader, might choose. To me it is not worth building with trapping. If that isn't the case for you then build how you want to build. It really won't cause me to lose any sleep at night. ;)