sorc feat/multiclass options

[revanist25]

hi all , still fairly new to sorc, only lvl 10 on this toon. i originally made a wiz when i thought they were the heavy nukers lol. shes lvl 17 atm. but im doing fire savant right now, probably switch to air later. only meta i have atm is max, thinking about grabbing emp as well, and heighten. but i really only use them with sla's. do u think it worth it to grab those 2? and also thinking about grabbing 2 lvls of another class, maybe fvs. everyone says pally for the saves.is fvs worth dipping 2 lvls into? and fyi im drow not wf, made sorc before i bought wf and too lazy to reroll a lvl 7 wf sorc lol.but any input and opinions would be appreciated.thank you

[Atremus]

I just TR'd my pure FvS into a 18sorc 2 FvS. Human, not WF.

Will be a Sharadi Sorc relying on Scourge (2FvS)

Only Level2 though so I haven't tried EE yet.

I considered trying 12Sorc/6Wiz/2FvS but that is just too deep of a splash for me.

[AtomicMew]

hi all , still fairly new to sorc, only lvl 10 on this toon. i originally made a wiz when i thought they were the heavy nukers lol. shes lvl 17 atm. but im doing fire savant right now, probably switch to air later. only meta i have atm is max, thinking about grabbing emp as well, and heighten. but i really only use them with sla's. do u think it worth it to grab those 2? and also thinking about grabbing 2 lvls of another class, maybe fvs. everyone says pally for the saves.is fvs worth dipping 2 lvls into? and fyi im drow not wf, made sorc before i bought wf and too lazy to reroll a lvl 7 wf sorc lol.but any input and opinions would be appreciated.thank you

FvS splash on a sorc is probably one of the strongest caster types offensively, now. Paladin splash is pretty close as well, but much more defensive. Both empower are maximize are important feats, IMO. But if you really wanted to, you could get away with not taking empower. Maximize however is essential. There are times when you are better off dumping SP, when things get dangerous and you need things dead ASAP.

Check the link in my sig for some end game build details.

Level up sorc until about level 14-15, and then think about splashing. Getting access to higher level spells is much more important for lowbies than any splash.

[thesnoman]

About half a page down from the top of the Sorc Forum is my U19 Sorc Thread. Not many replies, but it is an attempt at the state of Shiradi Sorcs post U19.

There are a whole bunch of fundamentals with Shiradi Sorcs and a whole lot of opinion on what is best.

Personally, I respectfully disagree with AtomicMew about the need for either Empower or Maximize - I think they're a waste of SP on a Shiradi, but some people believe that Mana Dump is required on a Shiradi - I just think spending around 20-25 extra SP for a 5 SP spell is silly.

I believe casting faster is better

I believe staying alive is the most important thing since a dead Sorc = 0 DPS and a backpack ride.

I believe in BYOH.


All this being said - I have dumped Maximize and Empower to grab Dodge and Mobility.
I've heard that this is absolutely ridiculous - I've ignored the comments. With Displace, 50-ish AC, and 22% Dodge I don't worry much about my HPs - I can stay alive.

I may (again) drop Mobility if I don't see much difference with the extra 2% Dodge over the weekend in favor of SF: Evocation to pick up The T4 Magister Evocation twist for casting faster.

I'm also preferring the FoTW/Sense Weakness Twist for EE Wheloon and Stormhorn content since a good amount of the MoBs have ultra high reflex saves and evasion - rendering Energy Burst relatively useless (For EH and Everything up to Wheloon Energy Burst is my Twist of Choice)

Just another point of view with Shiradi Sorcs.

You can check out https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/423546-U19-Shiradi-Sorc-The-Good-the-bad-and-the-OMFG!! for more of my thoughts and suggestions about Shiradi Sorcs.

[AtomicMew]

About half a page down from the top of the Sorc Forum is my U19 Sorc Thread. Not many replies, but it is an attempt at the state of Shiradi Sorcs post U19.

There are a whole bunch of fundamentals with Shiradi Sorcs and a whole lot of opinion on what is best.

Personally, I disagree with AtomicMew about the need for either Empower or Maximize - I think they're a waste of SP on a Shiradi, but some people believe that Mana Dump is required on a Shiradi - I just think spending around 20-25 extra SP for a 5 SP spell is silly.

Maximize, empower and quicken are always on for meteor swarm, as it's just much more efficient this way due to the high base cost. With improved metamagics and green scale, you're looking at ~60-70 SP per meteor swarm whereas base meteor swarm is already 50 SP. From this perspective alone, maximize and empower are worth taking, since meteor swarm is such an important feature of the 18/2 split.

Furthermore, don't forget that shiradi procs are also affected by metamagics (confirmed and tested). A ~60% increase in burst DPS thanks to metamagics is going to do far more for you in terms of survivability than a very marginal 2% increase to dodge. If it means drinking a potion here and there, I think that's an acceptable trade for stronger survivability.


I may (again) drop Mobility if I don't see much difference with the extra 2% Dodge over the weekend in favor of SF: Evocation to pick up The T4 Magister Evocation twist for casting faster.
I agree that energy burst may not be optimal, but evocation familiarity is kind of a waste IMO. Between MM, scorching ray, lightning bolt, meteor swarm, chain missile, etc. there's no real need for shorter cooldowns.

[thesnoman]

I'm still not convinced that Max/Emp are worth two feats and 12 AP. What is the true benefit from these two feats and at what cost?

Disclaimer: I will not be using FGDS Armor in these examples because I never see Shiradi Sorcs sporting it - they are all wearing FBlueDS because the benefits seemingly outweigh the gains and the time required to obtain the FGDS needed to build the armor. Additionally, if my math is wrong, please correct me as these calculations are what I base my own builds on)


My SP without Max/Emp is 343 Force and 313 Fire (no fire item at this point so I can increase this by 114 with a simple augment, but I'm still playing with a few gear items so I haven't really gotten into Max SP with fire yet.)

Benefit:
Maximize (+150) and Empower (+75) = + 225 Spell Power
That's a net gain of ~66% spell power (Force) in my case <-- Remember that this number will never change in the calculations - it's a static increase.

Cost
Maximize (+25 spell Points) + Empower (+15 Spell Points) - Enhancements (15 total) = +25 Spell Points

Meteor Swarm costs 40 Spell Points base and 25 spell points additional for Max/Emp for a total of 65 Spell Points - that's an ~63% increase in spell point cost.

SO... you get a 66% increase in spell power for a 63% increase in spell point cost on one of the highest spell point cost spells in the game (Meteor Swarm) - and it costs you 2 feats and 12 AP.


Using the MM/Scorching Ray/CM formula, things look a bit worse off:

CM = 15 SP Base and 40 SP cost with Max/Empower - That's a net increase of 166% spell points for a 66% increase in Spell Power

Scorching Ray = 8 SP Base and 33 SP cost with Max/Empower - That's a net increase of 312% spell points for 66% increase in Spell Power

MM = 4 SP base and 29 SP cost with Max/Empower - that's a net increase of 625% spell point cost for a 66% increase in spell power.

Let's put this in different terms to make sure it's clear:

Chain Missile: You get the damage equivalent of 1.66 chain missile casts for the cost of 2.66 chain missile casts (or, in other words, I can do ~ 60% more damage than you for the same amount of spell points)

Scorching Ray: You get the damage equivalent of 1.66 scorching ray casts for the cost of 4.12 scorching ray casts (or, in other words, I can do ~248% more damage than you with the same amount of spell points)

Magic Missile: You get the damage equivalent of 1.66 Magic Missile casts for the cost of 7.25 Magic Missile casts (or, in other words, I can do ~437% more damage than you with the same amount of spell points)

Yes - I understand that this all comes at the cost of time - I have to cast more spells than you - BUT LOOK AT THE DAMAGE DIFFERENCES!!

The ONLY spell commonly used by Shiradi Sorcs that gets any benefit is Meteor Swarm - an it's really not all that much of a benefit in damage vs spell points - it's just the time you spend casting the spell. ( and the damage benefit is lessened a bit given the state of reflex saves and evasion at end game on EE).

Keep in mind that all of these situations mean that you're not only spending additional Spell Points, but you are spending 2 feats and 12 AP to get the math to work in your favor for ONE SPELL!!!

The biggest benefit you get from Max/Empower is from a random high damage Shiradi Proc and The Good Tea (Joy). But these don't happen enough to warrant the cost, IMHO. YMMV - as is proven in this thread, but I really think you should re-examine the numbers to see if the benefits really do outweigh the cost.

Additonally - the benefits of Max/Emp seem to be highest when fighting bosses. With EGH this was huge - 7 bosses in Tor, PoP has 7/8, 4 in Crucible, 3 in Maze, 2 in Cry, etc, etc. With the new expansion, bosses are fewer and further between - masses of baddies is the new end game - Base Chain missile, Ice Storm, and Solid Fog get you much further without chugging pots than max/emp meteor swarm does in my experience.

again - please correct me if my math is wrong in this post - I've tried to check and double check it and I've built my Shiradi Sorc based on these calculations, so...


?Thanks for reading!!

[Rogann]

2 fvs- unlimited scorching ray/MM spam

2 monk- more PRR/health

2 pally- +15-17 saves

[AtomicMew]

Benefit:
Maximize (+150) and Empower (+75) = + 225 Spell Power
That's a net gain of ~66% spell power (Force) in my case <-- Remember that this number will never change in the calculations - it's a static increase.

Cost
Maximize (+25 spell Points) + Empower (+15 Spell Points) - Enhancements (15 total) = +25 Spell Points

Meteor Swarm costs 40 Spell Points base and 25 spell points additional for Max/Emp for a total of 65 Spell Points - that's an ~63% increase in spell point cost.

SO... you get a 66% increase in spell power for a 63% increase in spell point cost on one of the highest spell point cost spells in the game (Meteor Swarm) - and it costs you 2 feats and 12 AP.
You're forgetting quicken. Meteor swarm is a relatively slow cast without quicken (unlike MM/scorching ray) and really benefits from it in terms of DPS, not locking you into place and being uninterruptable (which is important since it's a high cost spell).

No maximize/empower: 47 SP
Maximize/empower: 72 SP, a 53% increase.

Also note that while your force/fire spellpower will likely be higher once you get your gear together, various shiradi procs will benefit by a larger percent making the math a bit trickier. However, it's pretty obvious that more DPS at roughly the same efficiency is a good thing, so there's no point in not doing so. That, and you can also use lesser maximize clickies and maybe even efficient metamagic items to make things even more efficient.


Using the MM/Scorching Ray/CM formula, things look a bit worse off:
Of course, but that's why you have to assess the situation and see if the increased DPS is worth the loss of efficiency. A great example is Tor dragons and various boss fights (like you said). In a group, you can turn on all your metas and still have 50% left over (or more). Solo, particularly blue dragon, if you don't turn on all your metas, you won't just take a bit longer, you'll die. Period. So this is at least one concrete example where having metas will literally save your life.


Keep in mind that all of these situations mean that you're not only spending additional Spell Points, but you are spending 2 feats and 12 AP to get the math to work in your favor for ONE SPELL!!!
There isn't really much else in the savant trees that you really want to invest in anyway. Improved meta enhancements are much better than they were before since 1) they also increase spell power and 2) they fulfill pre-requisites most other enhancements are honestly not that good.


Ice Storm
This is another example of a spell that you'll want to maximize all the time. Even though you'll lessen the efficiency of ice storm, because it's such an efficient spell to begin with your overall efficiency will still increase by making it contribute a larger portion of your DPS.

[thesnoman]

Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree - as I mentioned in my Shiradi Sorc Thread it's about play style and preferences.

Personally, I've solo'd Tor with all the dragons without metas, death, pots or re-entry - Blue is really not that hard with Energy Sheathe, a Djinn Ring, and Blue Armor.

And - perhaps we should try to play with the other's build (I don't quicken meteor swarm either) - maybe you'll like having 22% dodge moving and 24% standing still...that plus displace and incorporeal and you're untouchable in all but the most recent EE content.

As for Gear - I'm pretty much down to a weapon and EE Orb. Not sure if it's possible a 144 Impulse/Kinetic Lore X weapon can fall much less with a red slot, but that's what I'm keeping an eye out for.

EE Nether Orb is also on my list.

Really - I'm not sure if these will outperform my current gear setup, but it's worth the time and or plat/shards to try - I've done everything else to perfect how I like my Shiradi Sorc.

And just so you can see how my enhancements are laid out:


Shiradi Sorc 101:
ENHANCEMENTS:

Race Tree: Warforged
Core Enhancements - ALL (This gives you an automatic 100% Fortification and +2 Constitution)
Tier 1:
Construct Thinking (3/3) for +3 to weak will saves
Inscribed Armor (1/3) for 0% Arcane Spell Failure with Composite Body [3/3 if you take Mithril Body]
Construct Toughness (1/1)
Construct Stability (1/3) Had a leftover point and threw it here
Tier 2:
Construct Toughness (1/1)
Tier 3:
Construct Toughness (1/1)
***Improved Mithril Body (3/3) IF you take Mithril Body***
Tier 4:
Construct Toughness (1/1)

Air Savant Tree (37 AP spent)
Core Enhancements 1-5 (No Capstone)
Tier 1:
Acrobatic (3/3)
One With The Storm (3/3)
Spell Critical: Electric (1/1)
Tier 2:
Spell Critical: Electric (1/1)
Efficient Quicken (3/3)
Tier 3:
Spell Critical: Electric (1/1)
Charisma (1/1)
Tier 4:
Spell Critical: Electric (1/1)
Charisma (1/1)
Feather Falling (1/1)
Tier 5:
Awaken Elemental Weakness: Electric (1/1)
Wind Dance (1/1)
Power f Force (1/1)

Fire Savant Tree (23 AP Spent)
Core Enhancements 1-4
Tier 1:
Conflagration (3/3)
One With The Inferno (3/3)
Spell Critical: Fire (1/1)
Tier 2:
Spell Critical: Fire (1/1)
Fanning The Flames (3/3)
Tier 3:
Spell Critical: Fire (1/1)
Charisma (1/1)
Tier 4:
Charisma (1/1)

[AtomicMew]

And - perhaps we should try to play with the other's build (I don't quicken meteor swarm either) - maybe you'll like having 22% dodge moving and 24% standing still...that plus displace and incorporeal and you're untouchable in all but the most recent EE content.
How much of that is actually coming from the two extra feats you have? I don't know if dodge/mobility were affected by all the changes.

And just so you can see how my enhancements are laid out:
Too many warforged enhancements for my taste!

Also, mithral body will cap your dodge bonus at 4% (unless it was also changed).

[thesnoman]

How much of that is actually coming from the two extra feats you have? I don't know if dodge/mobility were affected by all the changes.

5% Dodge from Feats


Too many warforged enhancements for my taste!
I figured as much - I've seen your posts on the topic of enhancements. Personally I solo and short-man much more than play in full groups so survivability is much more important to me than a few more DPS (at least the way I play),


Also, mithral body will cap your dodge bonus at 4% (unless it was also changed).

Mithril Body caps dodge bonus at 8% with the mithril body enhancements.

I don't have Mithril Body - I put it in my original post as a "flavor build" for shiradi sorcs. The WF enhancements should look like this on my "Shiradi Survivor Build":


Race Tree: Warforged - 20 points spent in tree
Core Enhancements - ALL (This gives you an automatic 100% Fortification and +2 Constitution)
Tier 1:
Construct Thinking (3/3) for +3 to weak will saves
Inscribed Armor (1/3) for 0% Arcane Spell Failure with Composite Body
Construct Toughness (1/1)
Construct Stability (1/3) Had a leftover point and threw it here
Tier 2, 3, and 4:
Construct Toughness (1/1)
Construct Toughness (1/1)
Construct Toughness (1/1)

Remember - my build is about survivability in the new EE content when soloing and short-manning. I'm still 18/2 Pally, not 18/2 FvS.

[Tilomere]

I considered trying 12Sorc/6Wiz/2FvS but that is just too deep of a splash for me.

Ya that called me too. I designed a 12/6/2 build with full enhancements and feats. It was going to be a very elegant replacement for an 18/2 meteor spamming sorc. I leveled up, finished the ED trees I needed for all feats since I figured a deep splash would suck outside of Shiradi...and right before the LR+20 I tested CM and found out I need caster lvl near 20 to get all the chain missiles. I only have a +2 twilight...just doesn't cut it.

It had such elegant spell rotations.