Theorybuild - The Avenging Angel

[Arlathen]

Theorybuild - The Avenging Angel v1.1 - U19

"To Decimate, To Destroy, To Devastate - To Exterminate, To Eliminate, To Eradicate"

Overview
The historical Solar & Divine Phoenix builds have always had an impact on me, and with the new Kensai enhancements providing access to centered weaponry for any monk willing to go that route, I wanted to put together a fun new Theorybuild that could accomplish some great Damage & Self-sufficiency for EN/EH content but then change and grow into a EE capable character through later progression (read: Gear!).

Thus, I've mutated my Dark Inquisitor into the following new U19 enhancement flavoured build.

Despite many attempts to try a build that utilised TWF, I could never achieve the DPS output that I wanted to give the build, until I sucked it up and went the centered Monk route with Heavy Blades. Then, THEN, the build finally opened up and started giving out the kind of numbers I wanted to see.

I've added on surety to the build in the form of Crowd Control and also tried to ensure the defensive side is covered as well. This will scale into EE through Fury of the Wild, but provide solid Stunning Blow for EN/EH as well.

Finally, I've now split this into two distinct builds - a Air Stance flavoured version for running EN/EH content, and then an easy-to-adapt too Earth Stance EE version should you choose to step up to the increasingly difficult content.

As always, this is a template for you to adapt and implement your build around, including your level/class choices along the way.

Main Goals
- Devastating THF Damage Potential
- High speed strike rate & Doublestrike potential
- Crowd Control
- High Dodge, Saves & Evasion
- Self Healing & Healing Amplification
- EE Viability through adaptation

Credits
Some credits are due here, for original builds that have given rise to my own theory build.
SolarDawning: Solar Phoenix (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/309261-Solar-Phoenix-Revised-for-Update-9)
Whomhead: Divine Phoenix 2.0 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/407723-Divine-Phoenix-2-0-The-phoenix-flies-again!) & Divine Phoenix 1.0 (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/313168-Divine-Phoenix-%E2%80%93-an-unarmed-human-healing-amp-build-(15-Paladin-4-Monk-1-Rogue))
Carpone: U19 Kensai Cleaver Monk (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422651-U19-Kensei-Centered-Cleaver?p=5069050#post5069050)

Core Build
Human
- Additional Feat & Skill Point

Fighter 8
- 5 Bonus Feats

Paladin 6
- Divine Grace
- SP Pool & Meta-Magic Access

Monk 6
- 3 Bonus Feats
- Evasion
- Adept of Forms
- Buy access to Grandmaster Forms

Kensai / Knight of the Chalice / Human / Nina-Spy Enhancements
- Centered access to Heavy Blades through Kensai
- Divine Might Insight bonus to Strength
- Exalted Smite Evil Tier 3
- Vigor of Life & Improved Recovery Healing Amp
- Kensai Haste Boost

Fury of the Wild Epic Destiny
- No-DC Crowd Control through Overwhelming Force
- Large DPS Increases to baseline THF Damage
- Massive DPS Boost to Exalted Smites via Adrenaline

Character Build
- 36pt Human, 3 Fighter Past Lives
Str: 18 Base, 60 with Gear/Tomes/Ship/Self Buffs
Dex: 12 Base, 34 with Gear/Tomes/Ship/Self Buffs
Con: 14 Base, 36 with Gear/Tomes/Ship/Self Buffs
Int: 08 Base, 14 with Gear/Tomes/Ship/Self Buffs
Wis: 12 Base, 30 with Gear/Tomes/Ship/Self Buffs
Cha: 14 Base, 34 with Gear/Tomes/Ship/Self Buffs

Strength Potential
18 Base +7Lvl +4Tome +10Item +12Insight(DM) +1Racial +1Exc +5Rage +2Ship
= 60 Str

Heroic Feats
7 Standard, 5 Fighter Bonus, 3 Monk Bonus, 1 Human = 16 Feats
- THF, ITHF, GTHF
- Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, IC: Slash
- WF: Slash, WS: Slash, GWF: Slash
- Stunning Blows, Improved Sunder, Master of Forms, Grandmaster of Forms
- Dodge, Empower Heal

Epic Feats
- Overwhelming Critical, Quicken, Blinding Speed*
- Perfect THF, Tactician

* Despite being in GM Air stance primarily, taking this gives you stance flexibility - maybe you need to swap into GM Water for a moment or two while you deal with some nasty casters? It's also still there for an eventual 'upgrade path' to the EE version of the build.

Enhancements
Kensai - 33pts
C WF: Heavy Blades, Spiritual Bond, Strike with No Thought
1 WS: Heavy Blades, Haste Boost 3, Extra Action Boost 3
2 WS: Heavy Blades, Kensai Tactics 3, Weapon Meditation
3 WS: Heavy Blades, Shattering Strike 2
4 WS: Heavy Blades
5 Keen Edge, Deadly Strike, One with Blade

Knight of the Chalice - 25pts
C Hunter of the Dead 1, Courage of Heaven 1
1 Extra Smite 2, Extra Turning 3
2 Extra Smite 2, Divine Might 3
3 Exalted Smite 3, Vigor of Life 1
4 Vigor of Life 1

Human - 11pts
C AB: Damage, Strength
1 Improved Recovery 1
2 THF Fighting Style 3

Ninja Spy - 11pts
C Ninja Training 1, Ninja Training 2, Shadow Veil
1 Sneak Attack Training, Acrobatic 3
2 Sneak Attack Training, Agility 1

Fury of the Wild
1 Primal Scream 3, Tunnel Vision 3
2 Acute Senses 3
3 Malicious Weapons 3
4 Sense Weakness 3, Overwhelming Force 3, Wild Weapons 2
5 Fury Eternal
6 Unbridled Fury

Destiny Twists
1 Dance of Flowers - GMoF Tier 1
2 Legendary Tactics - LD Tier 1
3 Rejuvenation Cocoon - PA Tier 1

Offensive Potential - Grandmaster of Air & Breach, Dividing Blade
Two Handed Fighting - Speed Overview
- Grandmaster Air Stance for Permanent Haste
- 30% Kensai Haste Boost & 20% Human Damage Boost Dual Boosting
- 8 Action Boosts per rest

Potential Doublestrike
10% Grandmaster Air Stance
06% Doublestrike Item
03% Artifact: Flawless Black Dragonscale
01% Enh: Strike with No Thought
= 20% Doublestrike

Two Handed Fighting - Damage Overview
- Full GTHF Line
- Full Human Enhancments to THF
- Perfect THF Feat
- FotW Destiny: Malicious Weapons 3, Wild Weapons 2
- 66% Glancing Blow Damage
- 34% Weapon Effects Proc

Crowd Control Overview
- No Save 10s Crowd Control with Overwhelming Force
- DC65 Stunning Blow with +3DC Improved Sunder Leader
Potential Stunning Blow
10 Base
25 Strength
10 Stunning item
06 Exceptional Combat Tactics
03 Enh: Kensai Tactics
06 LD: Legendary Tactics
03 Past Life: Fighter
02 ED Feat: Tactician
= 65DC

Potential Damage - Breach, Dividing Blade

Two Handed Fighting - Base Damage with Breach
28 Breach Avg Damage = 2.5[2D6] + 1.5[W] Dance of Flowers
08 Magic Weapon
10 Weapon Bond
37 Strength (Strength 60)
10 Power Attack
06 Kensai Enhancements
02 WS: Slash
10 Deadly Item
04 Artifact
06 FotW Innates
= 121 Damage Per swing, +66% Glancing Blows (3 in 4) = 180 Per Swing Avg

Two Handed Fighting - Adrenaline Exalted Smite Critical Damage with Breach
121 Base Damage
025 Smite Evil Damage (Paladin Level 6)
010 Seeker +10 Item
005 Exc Seeker +5 item
= 166 Damage
x4 Adrenaline Multipler
= 644 Damage
x2 Base Crit
+2 Exalted Smite Crit
= 2,576 Damage

'Perfect' Smite Evil on a natural 19/20 with Breach
644 Base Damage
x2 Breach Base Crit
+2 Exalted Smite Crit
+1 Overwhelming Critical
= 3,220 Damage

'Stars Aligned' Potential (Max Base Damage on Breach, natural 19/20)
= 141 Base Damage per swing, 181 after Smite/Seeker Effects, 724 with Adrenaline
x5 Critical
= 3,620 Damage

Hmm, there's something kind of satisfying when you have to use comma's in your weapon damage calculations!

I'd also like to see the screenshot that beats this 'stars aligned' damage with this build through buffs or other +damage that I've missed off....

[Arlathen]

Defensive Potential

Saves
Ft/Rf/Wl
06/02/02 Fighter 8
05/02/02 Paladin 6
05/05/05 Monk 6
04/04/04 Epic Levels
13/11/10 Con/Dex/Wis
12/12/12 Charisma
08/08/08 Resistance Item / Aug
04/04/04 Insight
00/02/00 Ninaj-Spy Agility
02/02/02 Good Luck
01/01/01 Resistance Ritual
01/01/01 Aura of Good
04/04/04 Greater Heroism (Self Buff!)
= 64/58/55 Saves + Evasion

PRR - Grandmaster Air
015 Planar Focus of Prowess
016 Blue Augment
= 31 PRR, 17% Physical Resistance

Dodge
06% Monk 6
03% Dodge Feat
10% Item
03% Acrobatic
= 22% Dodge

Incorporeal
25% Shadow Veil

Hit Points
040 Base
364 Constitution Bonus @28
080 Fighter 8
060 Paladin 6
048 Monk 6
080 Epic Levels
100 Fury of the Wild
010 Draconic Feat
045 Greensteel HP Item
020 Vitality Item
040 Enhancement Item
= 887 HP

Healing Amp
1.00 Base
1.10 Human Improved Recovery
1.20 Paladin Vigor of Life
1.30 Item (PDK Gloves)
1.20 Item (Convalescent Bracers)
1.10 Guild ship buff
= 227% Healing Amplification
= +2 / +4 Fists of Light Self-Healing

Devotion
023 Heal Skill Ranks
015 Heal Skill Item / Aug
008 Epic Skills
004 Skill Tome
010 Wisdom Bonus (30)
138 Devotion Item
030 Implement Bonus
075 Empower Healing
= 303%

Rejuvenation Cocoon
= 5D6 Base * 3.03 * 2.27 = 120 Avg Tick

[Arlathen]

Changing the Build into Epic Elite Mode

Perhaps most significantly, after some of great feedback I've received in this thread so far, is the potential to mutate the build into a EE version of the build gaining significant defensive advantages as well as potentially improving DPS.

You can make a simple change in the form of the following enhancements:

Monk Stance: Change to Grandmaster Earth stance from Air Stance.

Kensai Enhancements
2 - Change Kensai Tactics 3 to Improved Dodge 3,

Destiny Twists
1 Standing with Stone
2 Rejuvenation Cocoon
3 Dance of Flowers

Net Results
+1 Crit Multiplier on natural 19-20
-10% Doublestrike
+6 Con = +84 HP, +3 Fort Saves, -3 Reflex Saves (loss of Dex)
+15 PRR from Stance, +15 PRR from Twist, reaching 61 PRR and 30% Damage Reduction
+3% Dodge, thus and reaching 25% Max Dodge

Moar HP!
If you truly want to dedicate the character to the most difficult content and running EEs without the Stunning Blow and Improved Sunder options, then it could well worth respeccing the feats of the character. Instead of the two Heroic feats, take a pair of Toughness feats instead, swap Quicken in the epic levels to Epic Toughness and also choose to take Guardian Angel instead of Tactician as the final Epic Destiny feat. You'll need to drop two level up points into Con with a +4 Con Tome to achieve this.

That will however, net you a massive additional +104HP as well as a strong Defensive buff when you dip under 50% HP, and in total will inflate your HP to 1,075HP.

Yummy.

Do you go ahead and use an ESOS??..

Potentially. If you have one, then try it out. Its a net loss of PRR and +4 Artifact Damage from loss of the Planar Focus set, but it does gains with an additional +1 Crit Multiplier over Breach which along with GM Earth stance makes 'Perfect' or 'Stars Aligned' Smite Evil Adfrenaline Strikes super-smash-tastic fun numbers. Previous calculations put the 'Stars aligned' ESOS number at around 5.5K damage.

Equipment Layout

Still working on this, and to come. Breach and a Planar Focus are pretty obvious, as well as methods of achieving the necessary Seeker/Exceptional Seeker and Artificact Doublestrike (Flawless Blackscale Robe). Most of the requirements in gear should stand out, but I'll puzzle this out later on.

[Takllin]

I'm leveling a 10 paladin/8 Fighter/2 monk variant of this, and its going to be awesome.

But a few problems with this. I count at least 6 twists you have listed in your stat calculations. Your using overlapping gear items to calculate statistics as well(healing amp and artifact bonus). And the use of Earth and Air stance to calculate critical and double strike statistics.

I also noticed that for your "Stars Aligned" at the bottom, you bumped up your base damage from 120 to 149, and you added in 40 seeker to your base damage, which is way too high. Seeing as you only have +10 and +5 exc in your math.

And where is the 25 damage coming from with Smite Evil? It should only be 6 as your only 6 Paladin.

Also the eSoS is 2.5[2d6] with a base damage of 35.75.

Without seeing the actual gear layout and how your getting your stats, it is hard to make other comments.

[Arlathen]

I'm leveling a 10 paladin/8 Fighter/2 monk variant of this, and its going to be awesome.

Mmh, I hope so. I'm levelling a pretty fresh TR through. Will take me a few weeks to get up there, and I'm doing it a fairly painful way - won't be swinging a Greatsword/Falchion until 18, so Quarterstaves for me until then. And no Acrobat Alacrity bonus lol!


But a few problems with this. I count at least 6 twists you have listed in your stat calculations. Your using overlapping gear items to calculate statistics as well(healing amp and artifact bonus). And the use of Earth and Air stance to calculate critical and double strike statistics.

Ok, yes, this is definitely a template build of possibilities from a particular Class-Split . Hence my 'Theorybuild' prerogative. Some players may go for GM Air, some may go GM Earth - depending on preference. My listing shows the upsides/downsides of each direction. Personally, my heart is saying go GM Air, my head is saying go GM Earth and get the **** PRR/Crit Multiplier. Time will tell.

As for Twists, yes totally there's too many listed. Again, its something to experiment with at this stage, Rejuvenation Cocoon is pretty definite but the other two are 'up in the air' at this point. I'll think through it more when I get to my Epic Destiny.


And where is the 25 damage coming from with Smite Evil? It should only be 6 as your only 6 Paladin.

I'll answer this question first as it directly relates to the 'Seeker' potential. Smite Evil damage bonus is calculated at 7+(3*Paladin Level), and is not just Paladin Level. Thus, 7+(3*6) = 25 Bonus Damage on Smite Evil attacks.


I also noticed that for your "Stars Aligned" at the bottom, you bumped up your base damage from 120 to 149, and you added in 40 seeker to your base damage, which is way too high. Seeing as you only have +10 and +5 exc in your math.

Hence, since I'm only using my Exalted Smites to power my Adrenaline Strikes, I'm effectively adding +10 Seeker, +5 Exc Seeker and +25 Smite Damage to base damage before the Adrenaline Multiplier hits home and then the Crit Multiplier effect on top.


Also the eSoS is 2.5[2d6] with a base damage of 35.75.

I'm centered, and with Dance of Flowers from GMoF and Improved Martial Arts Epic feat that 2.5[2D6] becomes 4.5[2D6], effectively 9D6 base damage or 31.5 Avg Damage per swing before any other modifiers. Ignore the Base Damage Rating on the weapon itself, it doesn't make sense when calculating Avg Damage per hit.


Without seeing the actual gear layout and how your getting your stats, it is hard to make other comments.

Also true, but this will come with time and more thought.

I do appreciate the feedback however, always keeps me honest! :)

[Nodoze]

In my case I plan to level a duo up from 15 with a PDK Cleric/Fighter (self-healing S&B Cleaving Initimi-Tank). I was thinking this build may be a good partner to duo with.

In dungeon runs I plan to run the Tower-Shield Heavy Armor Battle Cleric in first to grab aggro and have the second character follow behind and pick off adds to mow down & then help with bosses.

What changes & what starting classes would you recommend if I were to do this build with a 32 point PDK (essentially human) and be able to come out of the chute swinging at level 15 (have to start with Fighter1)?

EDIT: Also, what Tomes are required for this build (any minimum dex, wisdom, etc)? I was originally planning on dropping up to a set of +3s if needed. Later, if I really like the build, I can look to add higher...

EDIT2: What skills besides Heal do you consider must-haves for the build?

[Arlathen]

In my case I plan to level a duo up from 15 with a PDK Cleric/Fighter (self-healing S&B Cleaving Initimi-Tank). I was thinking this build may be a good partner to duo with.

In dungeon runs I plan to run the Tower-Shield Heavy Armor Battle Cleric in first to grab aggro and have the second character follow behind and pick off adds to mow down & then help with bosses.

Sounds like a lot of fun!


What changes & what starting classes would you recommend if I were to do this build with a 32 point PDK (essentially human) and be able to come out of the chute swinging at level 15 (have to start with Fighter1)?

Due to starting with a currently in-progress character and using my LR+20 to make my feats fit, I had to delay my Kensai centered'ness to 20 to make it all fit. However, for 15 PDK, I'd most likely got 8 Fighter/Monk 6/Paladin 1, which will then allow you to fit in the Master and Grandmaster Form feats on Heroic feat slots. 16-20 is just straight Paladin goodness.

As a 32pt Build, Drop Strength to 17 and Wisdom to 11 to reclaim the 4pts over the initial 36pt build illustrated.


EDIT: Also, what Tomes are required for this build (any minimum dex, wisdom, etc)? I was originally planning on dropping up to a set of +3s if needed. Later, if I really like the build, I can look to add higher...

Ermm, really, the tomes just add to overall effectiveness. Starting 18 Str and +4 Str tome are wanted for Stunning Blow - but without the Fighter Past Lives, maxed out Strength and Str tomes your Stunning Blow DC will begin to suffer a little. My answer - don't worry about it too much! Just enjoy smashing stuff in the face with nice big Exalted Smite crits.

Edit: On a side note, the only stat qualifiers are 17 Str for GTHF, and 23 Str for Overwhelming Critical. Since all level up points go into Strength anyway, and you can start with 17 Str on a 32pt character, you don't actually need any tomes to begin with!


EDIT2: What skills besides Heal do you consider must-haves for the build?

UMD. There's plenty of Charisma here that with Epic Skills and 11 Base Ranks you should be able to get to no-fail Heal Scrolls quite easily. There's a nice easy 110 * 2.67 = 293pt Out of Combat heal right there, although Rejuvenation Cocoon is good enough as well if you can't get the UMD.

If you have the tomes for extra skill points, some Concentration (10pts) is very useful to maintain some Ki for Fists of Light. Any other odd points can be a pt for Tumble, some in Jump (although 60 Strength does give you +25 Jump!).

[Takllin]

Ok, yes, this is definitely a template build of possibilities from a particular Class-Split . Hence my 'Theorybuild' prerogative. Some players may go for GM Air, some may go GM Earth - depending on preference. My listing shows the upsides/downsides of each direction. Personally, my heart is saying go GM Air, my head is saying go GM Earth and get the **** PRR/Crit Multiplier. Time will tell.

Yeah I'm going with Earth, because with air your losing +6 con, 15 PRR which is very important for EEs currently.



As for Twists, yes totally there's too many listed. Again, its something to experiment with at this stage, Rejuvenation Cocoon is pretty definite but the other two are 'up in the air' at this point. I'll think through it more when I get to my Epic Destiny.

Yeah I love Sense Weakness, and Dance of Flowers would obviously be needed as well, so that is three twists right there.



I'll answer this question first as it directly relates to the 'Seeker' potential. Smite Evil damage bonus is calculated at 7+(3*Paladin Level), and is not just Paladin Level. Thus, 7+(3*6) = 25 Bonus Damage on Smite Evil attacks.

Hence, since I'm only using my Exalted Smites to power my Adrenaline Strikes, I'm effectively adding +10 Seeker, +5 Exc Seeker and +25 Smite Damage to base damage before the Adrenaline Multiplier hits home and then the Crit Multiplier effect on top.

Ah okay, I misunderstood how Smite Evil damage was calculated, it is a bit misleading in the description ingame.



I'm centered, and with Dance of Flowers from GMoF and Improved Martial Arts Epic feat that 2.5[2D6] becomes 4.5[2D6], effectively 9D6 base damage or 31.5 Avg Damage per swing before any other modifiers. Ignore the Base Damage Rating on the weapon itself, it doesn't make sense when calculating Avg Damage per hit.

Ah okay. You need to have 12 levels of Monk for Improved Martial Arts though....



Also true, but this will come with time and more thought.

I do appreciate the feedback however, always keeps me honest! :)
Thanks, and I am definitely going to keep up with these, I'm very interested in what your going to do with these.

[Arlathen]

Yeah I'm going with Earth, because with air your losing +6 con, 15 PRR which is very important for EEs currently.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm. These are good reasons but I still want to go Air though.... must resist!


Yeah I love Sense Weakness, and Dance of Flowers would obviously be needed as well, so that is three twists right there.

Sense Weakness is native to Fury of the Wild, thankfully, so at present I have in mind Rejuvenation Cocoon, Legendary Tactics and Dance of Flowers as the three twists. No Doublestrike or Standing with Stone from GMoF though, but that's about as serviceable as I can make the twists at present.


Ah okay. You need to have 12 levels of Monk for Improved Martial Arts though....

Arse. Knew I missed a trick somewhere. Oh well. Free feat time. Will have a think about that one.


Thanks, and I am definitely going to keep up with these, I'm very interested in what your going to do with these.

No worries. Stay tuned!

[Takllin]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm. These are good reasons but I still want to go Air though.... must resist!

Haha I know, I guess you could see what your HP and PRR are like at 28, and I suppose it would matter the group formation that is running EE, but I couldn't justify losing the +6 con and PRR. Those chains hit hard!



Sense Weakness is native to Fury of the Wild, thankfully, so at present I have in mind Rejuvenation Cocoon, Legendary Tactics and Dance of Flowers as the three twists. No Doublestrike or Standing with Stone from GMoF though, but that's about as serviceable as I can make the twists at present.

Ahhhh I forgot you were in FotW, assumed LD. Yeah I would think about maybe dropping Stunning Blow, if your aiming for it to be EE viable. I've heard mid 70s they still save, so mid 60s they definitely would. But if your not interested in doing EEs, its worth keeping.

So if you dropped it, I'd add the +15 PRR. 3% doublestrike is meh. IMO.



Arse. Knew I missed a trick somewhere. Oh well. Free feat time. Will have a think about that one.

No worries. Stay tuned!
Could grab toughness maybe? Or maybe UMD +3? You've got everything else already.

[Nodoze]

... Sense Weakness is native to Fury of the Wild, thankfully, so at present I have in mind Rejuvenation Cocoon, Legendary Tactics and Dance of Flowers as the three twists. No Doublestrike or Standing with Stone from GMoF though, but that's about as serviceable as I can make the twists at present. What are both of your thoughts about Momentum Swing & Lay Waste?

[emptysands]

I'm not sure how the monk/stance mechanic works. Do you need the auto grant at lvl 6, or can you use the base stance at level 1, then get Adept, Master and Grandmaster.

If so 12/4/4 would give you -1 feat (monk lvl) +2 feats (fighter) - 1 feat (buy Adept) = +0 feat cost. However you'd gain the +8 STR/+2 Ki option.

4 Paladin still gives you access to Empower Healing, and 4 Monk still gives access to 6% dodge.

Also, why go Grandmaster if you are getting Blinding Speed? That implies being in Earth stance, so +1 CON, +3 PRR and extra threat. You might switch that for Quicken instead - great survivability?

[Takllin]

What are both of your thoughts about Momentum Swing & Lay Waste?
As twists? I'd take Momentum Swing over Lay Waste. Lay Waste is pretty much useless without Momentum Swing, as you would have to wait the full 60 seconds each time to use it.

But if LD is your main Epic Destiny, then I would definitely grab both of them. Max out Momentum Swing for sure.

[Nodoze]

As twists? I'd take Momentum Swing over Lay Waste. Lay Waste is pretty much useless without Momentum Swing, as you would have to wait the full 60 seconds each time to use it.

But if LD is your main Epic Destiny, then I would definitely grab both of them. Max out Momentum Swing for sure.yes as twist options to up DPS when in FotW. I was wondering specifically for this build whether Momentum Swing would be a good twist or whether it's other DPS makes it not needed. I suspect on long fights when all the smites are gone maybe that would would be a good fall back (though Divine Sacrifice is there also). Agree that I definitely wouldn't take Lay Waste without Momenum Swing and not sure they are worth 2 twists but maybe 1 twist will give you 70% of the bang for the buck...

[Nodoze]

I'm not sure how the monk/stance mechanic works. Do you need the auto grant at lvl 6, or can you use the base stance at level 1, then get Adept, Master and Grandmaster.

If so 12/4/4 would give you -1 feat (monk lvl) +2 feats (fighter) - 1 feat (buy Adept) = +0 feat cost. However you'd gain the +8 STR/+2 Ki option.

4 Paladin still gives you access to Empower Healing, and 4 Monk still gives access to 6% dodge.

Also, why go Grandmaster if you are getting Blinding Speed? That implies being in Earth stance, so +1 CON, +3 PRR and extra threat. You might switch that for Quicken instead - great survivability?My understanding is that you get the first stance at level 1 and get auto-granted the others at 6,12,18(not 100% sure) but you could just splash level 1 & use Feats to get the others. It seems like most people are mainly going for the tier 3 stance (master Earth) and not going for Grand Master. If you did go this route I would definitely go at least Monk 2 for the Evasion...

EDIT: You would NOT lose 10% healing Amp from Paladin if you stop at 4 because you can only get one T5 and already took that In Kensai.

[emptysands]

My understanding is that you get the first stance at level 1 and get auto-granted the others at 6,12,18(not 100% sure) but you could just splash level 1 & use Feats to get the others. It seems like most people are mainly going for the tier 3 stance (master Earth) and not going for Grand Master. If you did go this route I would definitely go at least Monk 2 for the Evasion...


Cool, that's useful. You'd still want potentially want up to 4 Monk for enhancements.



EDIT: You would NOT lose 10% healing Amp from Paladin if you stop at 4 because you can only get one T5 and already took that In Kensai.

Yeah, that's the main point of my suggestion. +8 STR is +6 THF damage, +4 DC, +4 HIT (may or may not be useful in EE).

[Nodoze]

Cool, that's useful. You'd still want potentially want up to 4 Monk for enhancements.



Yeah, that's the main point of my suggestion. +8 STR is +6 THF damage, +4 DC, +4 HIT (may or may not be useful in EE).I am curious what the other guys thoughts are but I don't see much major downside. You do lose a smite evil and lose access to Core abilities that require level 6 but I don't see much in the current trees or selected enhancements that are huge losses. I personally wanted to study the other trees more and see if trading some of the current enhancements for other things is helpful (like the healing amp in Shintao or the incorp in Ninja) but suspect you may have to give up too much to go that route. The main thing I see losing access to is Shadow Veil but not sure I would go that route anyway as you would have to give up something under human or Paladin (can't see any flexibility under Kensai or you lose 'One with the Blade'). Wasn't too worried about it as enhancements are easy to change now but hoped to look at it more...

[Arlathen]

Firstly, thanks for the feedback guys, it's much appreciated. It's good reading and helped me decide upon a few options. One siginificant decision I've made concerning the build is to present two template paths:

1) Use Breach & GM Air Stance, for EN/EH content and while gearing/levelling. I really feel this would give something fun to play, self-sufficient and achieve the base goals I set out. Possible twists here I'm currently looking at are Dance of Flowers, Rejuvenation Cocoon and Legendary Tactics.

2) Use ESOS & GM Earth Stance, for EE content and as much defensive possibilities as can be had. Vastly improved PRR (I.E you have some!), and another Major Crit Multiplier to add to the ESOS's improved x3 base Crit. I'll re-evaluate the tactics with this option, but potentially Standing with Stone, Rejuvenation Cocoon and Momentum Swing.

Then people can choose the most suitable option for the gaming content they want to explore, and adapt suitably.

Re: 8 Fighter / 6 Monk / 6 Paladin vs. 12 Fighter / 4 Paladin / 4 Monk

This I have more concern over. One missing aspect that I've seriously overlooked is the accessibility of Shadow Veil and thus incorporating through Monk 6. I've been revewing the current enhancements and I can see several possible enhancements for the chopping block in order to fit this in. Namely, Tier 3 Human Heal Amp, Greater Heroism & Heroism, and possible Action Surge.

I'll mull it over some more. With a strong Rejuvenation Cocoon making a high DPS toon trivialise EN/EH content, it may not be needed. But in EE, you need every avoidance/mitigation you can muster so squeezing this in may be a priority. Especially if the Stunning Blow DC doesn't make it sufficiently high enough, although I'll give consideration to Power Surge improving a running Stunning Blow DC total.

EDIT: Ok, I've completed an overhaul of the main build posts to bring the build upto v1.1 implementing Grandmaster Air as the first choice stance for EN/EH content, with a 'upgrade path' to an EE version utilising GM Earth stance. The EE version drops the tactics in favour of significant defensive advantages including significantly more HP and PRR. Both styles of build now have Shadow Veil incorporated into the build.

[Nodoze]

Firstly, thanks for the feedback guys, it's much appreciated. ...

Re: 8 Fighter / 6 Monk / 6 Paladin vs. 12 Fighter / 4 Paladin / 4 Monk

... the accessibility of Shadow Veil and thus incorporating through Monk 6. I've been reviewing the current enhancements and I can see several possible enhancements for the chopping block in order to fit this in. ...

EDIT: Ok, I've completed an overhaul of the main build posts to bring the build upto v1.1 implementing ... Both styles of build now have Shadow Veil incorporated into the build.Not having played any EE on the new cap it is hard for me to think through the options from more than just theory stand point...

A couple of my thoughts:

For my duo, at least through EH as we level & grind destinies, I plan to essentially always have a PDK Charisma-based "self-healing Battle-Cleric hate/intimi-Tank" S&B with a Bastard Sword doing Momentum-Swing/Cleaves with full THF line tanking... I plan to always have the Radiant Savant Aura on all the time & use bursts as needed to supplement so for me, personally, I think I may value the 267% healing amp over 227% healing with an extra 15% incorporeal over standard Ghostly...

I was really liking the idea of more DPS & possibly even better tactics (in at least EH) that a 12/4/4 split gives... If I was pure human it wouldn't be as big a deal as a quick LR+5 could let me switch back and forth between 12/4/4 and 8/6/6 but being a PDK will have me waiting on a "soon" to be developed TR and LR options if I end up not liking my choices...

The good news is that with either the 8/6/6 or the 12/4/4 you can get the full heal 267% amp but the bad news is that with the 12/4/4 you close off extra 15% incorporeal.

The 8/6/6 is definitely more flexible as with an fairly quick/painless enhancements change you could go more Monk, more Paladin, or more Fighter as current/future changes present themselves. For example, if you swapped one feat for Bastard Sword you could maybe even move to S&B AC/PRR mode with a & still leverage Glancing blows & THFs if future content warranted...

The above being said I am a little conflicted... I believe the 8/6/6 is safer/more flexible but I also like the idea of the psionic boosts giving "Bigger Holy Smites!" and more reliable CC (and helpless mobs giving even more DPS)...

Lastly, I think you may have a minor typo above as it looks like in the revised 1.1 enhancements in post 1 you dropped your heal amp from 1.3 human to 1.2 human & 1.2 paladin to 1.1 paladin but in the post 2 you broke out healing amp as 1.2 Paladin & 1.1 Human. In the end the calcs are the same but just for consistency's sake you may want to adjust it to 1.2 human & 1.1 Paladin instead... Sorry if I mis-read but that is the way it looked to me & you did such a good job of documenting things I figured you would want to know...

[Arlathen]

Not having played any EE on the new cap it is hard for me to think through the options from more than just theory stand point...

A couple of my thoughts:

For my duo, at least through EH as we level & grind destinies, I plan to essentially always have a PDK Charisma-based "self-healing Battle-Cleric hate/intimi-Tank" S&B with a Bastard Sword doing Momentum-Swing/Cleaves with full THF line tanking... I plan to always have the Radiant Savant Aura on all the time & use bursts as needed to supplement so for me, personally, I think I may value the 267% healing amp over 227% healing with an extra 15% incorporeal over standard Ghostly...

I was really liking the idea of more DPS & possibly even better tactics (in at least EH) that a 12/4/4 split gives... If I was pure human it wouldn't be as big a deal as a quick LR+5 could let me switch back and forth between 12/4/4 and 8/6/6 but being a PDK will have me waiting on a "soon" to be developed TR and LR options if I end up not liking my choices...

The good news is that with either the 8/6/6 or the 12/4/4 you can get the full heal 267% amp but the bad news is that with the 12/4/4 you close off extra 15% incorporeal.

The 8/6/6 is definitely more flexible as with an fairly quick/painless enhancements change you could go more Monk, more Paladin, or more Fighter as current/future changes present themselves. For example, if you swapped one feat for Bastard Sword you could maybe even move to S&B AC/PRR mode with a & still leverage Glancing blows & THFs if future content warranted...

The above being said I am a little conflicted... I believe the 8/6/6 is safer/more flexible but I also like the idea of the psionic boosts giving "Bigger Holy Smites!" and more reliable CC (and helpless mobs giving even more DPS)...

For EN/EH a 65DC+IS should be plenty of Stunning Blow, and you have Overwhelming Force on top from the destiny as well. It's only when you move into EE you have to squeeze every last DC you can to make it more viable.

Do remember that S&B and Shields in general are no go for my character - I'm not entirely sure what your referring to there - perhaps a TWF/Dual Nightmare approach with B.Swords?


Lastly, I think you may have a minor typo above as it looks like in the revised 1.1 enhancements in post 1 you dropped your heal amp from 1.3 human to 1.2 human & 1.2 paladin to 1.1 paladin but in the post 2 you broke out healing amp as 1.2 Paladin & 1.1 Human. In the end the calcs are the same but just for consistency's sake you may want to adjust it to 1.2 human & 1.1 Paladin instead... Sorry if I mis-read but that is the way it looked to me & you did such a good job of documenting things I figured you would want to know...


Ahhh! Nope, your spot on, thanks for that - and fixed. It is indeed 1.2 Paladin and 1.1 Human now - Enhancements have been amended.

[Nodoze]

...
Potential Damage - Breach, Dividing Blade

Two Handed Fighting - Base Damage with Breach
28 Breach Avg Damage = 2.5[2D6] + 1.5[W] Dance of Flowers
08 Magic Weapon
10 Weapon Bond
37 Strength (Strength 60)
10 Power Attack
06 Kensai Enhancements
02 WS: Slash
10 Deadly Item
04 Artifact
06 FotW Innates
= 121 Damage Per swing, +66% Glancing Blows (3 in 4) = 180 Per Swing Avg

Two Handed Fighting - Adrenaline Exalted Smite Critical Damage with Breach
121 Base Damage
025 Smite Evil Damage (Paladin Level 6)
010 Seeker +10 Item
005 Exc Seeker +5 item
= 166 Damage
x4 Adrenaline Multipler
= 644 Damage
x2 Base Crit
+2 Exalted Smite Crit
= 2,576 Damage

'Perfect' Smite Evil on a natural 19/20 with Breach
644 Base Damage
x2 Breach Base Crit
+2 Exalted Smite Crit
+1 Overwhelming Critical
= 3,220 Damage

'Stars Aligned' Potential (Max Base Damage on Breach, natural 19/20)
= 141 Base Damage per swing, 181 after Smite/Seeker Effects, 724 with Adrenaline
x5 Critical
= 3,620 Damage

Hmm, there's something kind of satisfying when you have to use comma's in your weapon damage calculations!

I'd also like to see the screenshot that beats this 'stars aligned' damage with this build through buffs or other +damage that I've missed off....I like the way you broke out the damage.

What would an Adrenalized Exalted Smite look like with something like a +6 Holy Burst Great Axe of Superior Bloodletting (VI) (w Festival Icy Burst, Red Slotted+2d6 Elemental Damage) ?

[darksol23]

On your EE version since you are dropping Kensai tactics, any consideration for dropping Tactician and using Perfect TWF instead... It will give +5% double-strike even on THF builds...


Edit: Bah... Clicked through from your sig... Sorry for the Necro

[Inoukchuk]

On your EE version since you are dropping Kensai tactics, any consideration for dropping Tactician and using Perfect TWF instead... It will give +5% double-strike even on THF builds...


Edit: Bah... Clicked through from your sig... Sorry for the Necro

But as long as you necro'd it....

How'd it pan out? I will be building a similar build down the road yet and debated between the 8/6/6 build you have (for survivability) and 12F/6M/2P (Cetus type build) and 12F/6P/2M. The last option loses healing curse and shadow veil, but gains US and better LoH and smites (not sure I care about the smites, will have more clickies that I can cycle anyway) and won't have to twist to get DM (twists will already be tight). Having DM + PS would be enough of a str boost to hopefully keep stunning blow relevant in EE.

Also, I would think you can get str higher.... assuming you got +5 tome from mabar, +1 human +2 kensei +2 kotc

str(70) - 18 base +5 enh +5 tome +2 ship +7 level up +10 item +1 exceptional +3 action surge +12 GM +5 primal +2 profane (nether grasps) = 70 (+30) (+2 yugo = 72)

the 12/6/2 variant can get to 80 with power surge and yugo for +35 =) so...

Tactics:
10 - base
35 - str
10 - item
06 - exceptional item
06 - Leg tactics
03 - kensei
03 - PL
02 - tactician
=75

[Arlathen]

On your EE version since you are dropping Kensai tactics, any consideration for dropping Tactician and using Perfect TWF instead... It will give +5% double-strike even on THF builds...


Edit: Bah... Clicked through from your sig... Sorry for the Necro

No worries, I do keep an eye on my threads from time to time. Would help if email notification worked, but oh well :D

As for dropping Tactics, absolutely grab that PTWF if you want to drop tactics....



But as long as you necro'd it....

How'd it pan out? I will be building a similar build down the road yet and debated between the 8/6/6 build you have (for survivability) and 12F/6M/2P (Cetus type build) and 12F/6P/2M. The last option loses healing curse and shadow veil, but gains US and better LoH and smites (not sure I care about the smites, will have more clickies that I can cycle anyway) and won't have to twist to get DM (twists will already be tight). Having DM + PS would be enough of a str boost to hopefully keep stunning blow relevant in EE.

Also, I would think you can get str higher.... assuming you got +5 tome from mabar, +1 human +2 kensei +2 kotc

str(70) - 18 base +5 enh +5 tome +2 ship +7 level up +10 item +1 exceptional +3 action surge +12 GM +5 primal +2 profane (nether grasps) = 70 (+30) (+2 yugo = 72)

the 12/6/2 variant can get to 80 with power surge and yugo for +35 =) so...

Tactics:
10 - base
35 - str
10 - item
06 - exceptional item
06 - Leg tactics
03 - kensei
03 - PL
02 - tactician
=75

Nice Tactics DC there! I've debated 12 Fighter variants myself, there workable, just a decent distance from where I started out with this build. I took it to 8/6/6 as described and the build worked out just fine for me with a Breach to play around with. I eventually got bored with trying to get the ESOS Seal, so unfortunately I've moved on (see my Shadow Stalker build) :)

[FCofKhatovar]

Recently did something similar on my comp to get the pally life out of the way. 3mon/8ftr/9pal. centered thf with heavy blades using a minII falch. note: this was weeks before i read any of this. anyway, LOVED it!! excellent dps, great survivability, some self healing with lay hands and UMD for scrolls/wands. liked it so much i TR'd my main melee toon into this build with great results. wielding EAGA after 20, i jumped right into an EH high road group, doubling kills of the lv25s in group, critting for 5k+ with a fully stacked blitz. switched to cleaver with planar at 23 with about the same numbers, but, more CC due to curse-spewing and limb-chopper.

took the crit acc/dmg, haste boost, and centered pre-reqs from kensai, undead bane, 2tiers of hamp from KotC, human str, dmg boost, heal skill to fill points for both hamps there.

grandmaster of forms, runnin earth stance all the time for AC, HP and crit multi. OC at 21 empower heal at 24 for better cocoons.

running in LD with sense weakness, dance with flowers and cocoon twisted.

looking at about the same HP and saves you were talking about by the time i hit 28.

unsure of the break-down of all my numbers cuz im lazy, but, heal amp is great, dmg is AMAZING, survivability rawks. most fun i've had to date. :)

[noneill]

Recently did something similar on my comp to get the pally life out of the way. 3mon/8ftr/9pal. centered thf with heavy blades using a minII falch. note: this was weeks before i read any of this. anyway, LOVED it!! excellent dps, great survivability, some self healing with lay hands and UMD for scrolls/wands. liked it so much i TR'd my main melee toon into this build with great results. wielding EAGA after 20, i jumped right into an EH high road group, doubling kills of the lv25s in group, critting for 5k+ with a fully stacked blitz. switched to cleaver with planar at 23 with about the same numbers, but, more CC due to curse-spewing and limb-chopper.

took the crit acc/dmg, haste boost, and centered pre-reqs from kensai, undead bane, 2tiers of hamp from KotC, human str, dmg boost, heal skill to fill points for both hamps there.

grandmaster of forms, runnin earth stance all the time for AC, HP and crit multi. OC at 21 empower heal at 24 for better cocoons.

running in LD with sense weakness, dance with flowers and cocoon twisted.

looking at about the same HP and saves you were talking about by the time i hit 28.

unsure of the break-down of all my numbers cuz im lazy, but, heal amp is great, dmg is AMAZING, survivability rawks. most fun i've had to date. :)

Are you still liking this build?

I have a 3rd Life Paladin at level 8, running around in THF with Carnifex. Used an Otto's I had been saving and now has the XP to 20. Was about to level him to 20 as a TWF Pure Paladin but had so much fun Two Handed Axeing it that I paused and wanted to find a good THF build with some Fighter or Monk in it. This looks good. I have two raiders boxes and also need to decide between Breach and Cleaver.

[Arkadios]

Are you still liking this build?

I have a 3rd Life Paladin at level 8, running around in THF with Carnifex. Used an Otto's I had been saving and now has the XP to 20. Was about to level him to 20 as a TWF Pure Paladin but had so much fun Two Handed Axeing it that I paused and wanted to find a good THF build with some Fighter or Monk in it. This looks good. I have two raiders boxes and also need to decide between Breach and Cleaver.

Cleaver is better.

[FCofKhatovar]

Are you still liking this build?

Yes, I most certainly am. My defenses aren't quite where I'd like them to be, but, the damage is amazing and the self heals are spectacular with a devotion augment in the cleaver. :)

[FCofKhatovar]

I used the SOS from 10-20, switched to the EAGA from 20-23, grabbed Cleaver from 23+, got an ESOS shard(finally) and the avg dmg number was MUCH better, but, I enjoy the huge crits from axes with LD and really needed the PRR from the planar set, so, my ESOS sits in its sheathe for now.