Divine Light can kill Pale Masters in public

[Nimulos]

So I was in a group with a lowlevel Paladin, me being a level 19 Wizard in lich form, when he suddenly was like "lemme try something"
He proceeded to use Divine Light, mind you, we were not in tavern brawl, not in a quest, we were in public, and this is the Result:
(Combat): _____'s divine light hit you for 180 points of light damage.
He did so twice and I was killed. I left the group to try and reproduce it, turns out you can kill any random Pale Master in undead form that is passing by. I don't think this is working as intended, because it can make really angry. Imagine being a lowlevel wizard in vampire form, not much HP yet and some Pally or Cleric suddenly goes "Let's troll that guy" and BOOM you are dead. Nothing you did, nothing you could predict, nothing you could prevent.
I already reported the bug, but from what I've heard the bug support is rather slow with catching up, so I decided to post it here as well. Why don't I stay alive in public? Because the undead form stays through entering and leaving quests, and activating it once and saving the 100 SP for in side a quest is rather nice.

Hope this reaches the devs, because I am really annoyed after that guy kept doing it several times, just for troll. After I asked him to, he stopped though, but the issue remains

P.S. please don't use it to kill ppl in public, play a fvs and use judgement, that is nasty enough for your fellow undead friends.

[Charononus]

awesome time to splash some cleric on everything.

[Krelar]

This is so halfling paladins can get revenge on all those wizards that used to blow them over. :p

Also time to respec my enhancements. :D

[PNellesen]

Wow, it's looking like a REALLY good time to move forward on my plans to TR my PM back to Cleric...

(What a mess. First the old Deathward bug somehow pops back into the codebase, and now this? Sheesh)

[Paleus]

P.S. please don't use it to kill ppl in public, play a fvs and use judgement, that is nasty enough for your fellow undead friends.

I think your post is going to have the opposite effect intended. But thanks for giving us all the idea.

[Soulfurnace]

Having a 4am stupid moment..
What tree is Divine Light in? So I can, y'know, avoid it.

[Krelar]

Having a 4am stupid moment..
What tree is Divine Light in? So I can, y'know, avoid it.

For paladin's it's a tier 1 in KoTC, not sure where it is for clerics.

[Vallar]

I second what happened there... it happened to my PM a few days ago too.

Curiously however, it seems not limited to Divine Light; in a quest I was in team today when a Pally used Turn Undead to kill a group of skellies in a quest we are doing. One of the team members was in Vamp form and he died. At first we didn't think much of it, but it turned out, Turn Undead affects the PM and kills him. We actually "tested" (means here joked around killing each other with it) multiple times to confirm that it does.

Hope that helps (some dev and not a troll) to figure what is going on wrong withe game logic.

[-Zephyr-]

It's been reported on Lamannia long ago, devs know.

[CE2JRH123]

Wow, this is awesome.

I mean, uh....terrible, and I'll definitely never generate amusement knowing this.

[Deadlock]

Move along. Nothing to see here.

Clearly a trivial matter such as this is not worthy of being included in an emergency hotfix patch.

[gurgar78]

This is so halfling paladins can get revenge on all those wizards that used to blow them over. :p

http://funny-pictures-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/innocent-ostrich-funny-picture.jpg

[TheNameIwasntB4]

It should be a great Labor Day Weekend!!!

[Karavek]

Already stopped 2 vile undead from wandering freely among the streets of the Reach. Finally we lawful good paladins can take battle to the streets against the abominations who litter our fair city. No undead will walk here as long as warriors of the silver flame stand strong.

On a side note until they let me play an evil assassin or PM and makes content to cater to both spectrums of the alignment I will not tolerate so called good undead when on my own good characters. Followers of good dieties DO NOT TOLERATE UNDEAD EVER!

[Feather_of_Sun]

Hilarious!

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm putting in a fix now for Patch 2.

[Highlander]

The Dev team seem to kick a lot of "own goals".
A loot discrepancy with VON1 and you hotfix it ASAP.

A clearly obvious game affecting bug that affects thousands of players in a very negative way and it will be in next patch....which will be? 1 day/week/month?
In the meantime, watch the griefers have a field day with your customer base.

I realise you're busy, but you do telegraph your priorities. :-/

Just glad I do not have a PM.....

:-/

[oradafu]

Hilarious!

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm putting in a fix now for Patch 2.

Booooo! Fixing all the fun stuff.

[Atremus]

Hilarious!

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm putting in a fix now for Patch 2.

Dont forget the cleansing recipie forthe early crafted Lords of Dust items.

[whereispowderedsilve]

Dont forget the cleansing recipie forthe early crafted Lords of Dust items.

I wouldn't USUALLY do this BUT: Atremus my fellow orien brother from another mother at least give FoS a link or a *tiny* bit more info :P >< *just saying*

*imo* *ymmv* (I know, I know quite a sore spot 4 u, I am sure! Sucks I know! ><) Cheers!

[Karavek]

Booooo! Fixing all the fun stuff.

No what would be fun would be for this to be SOP. As it should be. Its not griefing for paladins to be killing undead on sight. Its the most D&D thing I have seen in this game in years. Expecting people who want to take on the persona of a paladin to tolerate those who persue the path of darkness is WRONG

[Mystera]

Hilarious!

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm putting in a fix now for Patch 2.

Feather what about fixing the other pale master bugs at the same time?
- Deathward cast by party members blocks a pale masters ability to heal => dead pale master in raids
- Spell absorption items like the Jeweled Cloak block healing and absorb charges
- Deathward on skeleton summons blocks a pale masters ability to heal
- The turn undead spell can be used in quests to kill pale masters

[Havok.cry]

No what would be fun would be for this to be SOP. As it should be. Its not griefing for paladins to be killing undead on sight. Its the most D&D thing I have seen in this game in years. Expecting people who want to take on the persona of a paladin to tolerate those who persue the path of darkness is WRONG

My PM is lawful good. Paladins should not have a problem with him.

[Archangel_666]

Feather what about fixing the other pale master bugs at the same time?
- Deathward cast by party members blocks a pale masters ability to heal => dead pale master in raids
- Spell absorption items like the Jeweled Cloak block healing and absorb charges
- Deathward on skeleton summons blocks a pale masters ability to heal
- The turn undead spell can be used in quests to kill pale masters
- Quivering Palm and Stunning Fist no longer increment Everything is Nothing charges.
- Canith Challenge Gear still shows the wrong Lores.
- Canith Challenge Gear at Tier Three still isn't recognising that Masterful Craftsmanship has been used on it and so is two levels higher than it should be.
- Spell Absorbtion effect on the Epic Phiarlan Mirror Cloak absorbs the Sun Soul Set Vorpal Effects.
*Edit* Oh and the stupid ****ing Zoom Bug that forces me to restart my client after looking in Ingredient Bags. :/

Added some of my personal annoyances.

[Havok.cry]

A loot discrepancy with VON1 and you hotfix it ASAP.



I agree with your post in general, but please at least get your facts straight. Von 1 fix was not a hotfix, that was patch 1.

[Nimulos]

Hilarious!

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm putting in a fix now for Patch 2.

Hilarious for anyone who doesn't get annoyed by it...
Thanks for the quick response, I hope the patch comes soon.


No what would be fun would be for this to be SOP. As it should be. Its not griefing for paladins to be killing undead on sight. Its the most D&D thing I have seen in this game in years. Expecting people who want to take on the persona of a paladin to tolerate those who persue the path of darkness is WRONG

I agree, it would be a step towards that end, but then we PMs should be allowed to attack those **** Holy Warriors too. The whole city would end up being a giant brawl/pvp area, wich would not be fun for many new players. Besides, it would be very unbalanced for the one side to have deathblock but no lightblock for the other (wich I think is kinda unfair already). We can't take on the powers of the duality, we can't profit from the tomes of flesh, skin and bones, we can't profit from any Necromancy power sources in the game, so we can't properly take on the role of a selfish, evil Necromancer (not to mention alignment restriction: No evil) and properly battle the pallys in role.


Move along. Nothing to see here.

Clearly a trivial matter such as this is not worthy of being included in an emergency hotfix patch.

That's what I fear...


Feather what about fixing the other pale master bugs at the same time?
- Deathward cast by party members blocks a pale masters ability to heal => dead pale master in raids
- Spell absorption items like the Jeweled Cloak block healing and absorb charges
- Deathward on skeleton summons blocks a pale masters ability to heal
- The turn undead spell can be used in quests to kill pale masters

I did not encounter the 2nd and 4th yet, because I never had spell absorption and I keep back when clerics go melee, but the other two were very annoying. I can toggle shroud off and back on, wich costs me 100 SP, and dismiss and resummons my skeleton, wich makes him loose all the other buffs and costs me 10 hp and 10 sp, but that is not a good solution.


My PM is lawful good. Paladins should not have a problem with him.

So is mine, and I don't have a problem with anything except with divine casters, including trolls on my own team.

[Atremus]

I wouldn't USUALLY do this BUT: Atremus my fellow orien brother from another mother at least give FoS a link or a *tiny* bit more info :P >< *just saying*

*imo* *ymmv* (I know, I know quite a sore spot 4 u, I am sure! Sucks I know! ><) Cheers!

Ah, you are probably right... Cannot-Cleanse-(update)-Epic-Flameward (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/409395-Cannot-Cleanse-(update)-Epic-Flameward?highlight=Flameward)

[FranOhmsford]

My PM is lawful good. Paladins should not have a problem with him.

In PnP My Necromancers were always Van Helsings' and/or Healers.

Necromancy in D&D is NOT a matter of Evil Only!

The Only Arcanes with Healing ability {not as strong as Divine of course} in 2nd Ed. Were Necromancers! - Oh and that Healing was NOT Negative Energy!


As for Paladins - It's the Whole Rubbish Lawful Good = Lawful Stupid Argument again!

Paladins get this oh so useful ability to Detect Evil - If a Pale Master doesn't show up on that then yeah the Paladin will most likely still be wary of him/her but will NOT Kill on Sight!

Now wearing the Shroud of Undeath could mark you as Undead {and ALL Undead show up as Evil no matter what their personal alignment} BUT If you're going to be working with a Paladin it might be an idea to switch off the form so he/she knows you're NOT actually EVIL - Once He/She gets used to you you can switch the Shroud back on.

[Toro12]

What part of "hunter of the dead" don't you people understand?

My shintao monk/pally doesn't give a flying F if your lawful good or not. You are still a aberration that need to be smitith. That fact that you choose to be tainted is all the more reason to strike down upon the with great anger and furious vengeance.

[droid327]

You could, as has been pointed out, be a HotD/PM cross-class and be like Blade or the chick from Underworld, would you be forced to constantly /death yourself?


What part of "hunter of the dead" don't you people understand?

My shintao monk/pally doesn't give a flying F if your lawful good or not. You are still a aberration that need to be smitith. That fact that you choose to be tainted is all the more reason to strike down upon the with great anger and furious vengeance.

Even the most myopic "Hunter of the Dead" archetypes from books and movies always recognize that there's at least a few "good ones". Heck, a Druid would have more reason to indiscriminately kill Undead (they care more about the "aberration") than a Paladin, who's more concerned with preserving the Divine Justice or whatever. Not even a Druid, really, because they aren't ACTUAL undead, they haven't returned from a natural death to unnatural life, they're still alive, just with properties of un-life.

If the Flame has a use for a PM in combatting the forces of evil that threaten the faithful, who is the Paladin to judge him?

[Toro12]

You could, as has been pointed out, be a HotD/PM cross-class and be like Blade or the chick from Underworld, would you be forced to constantly /death yourself?



Even the most myopic "Hunter of the Dead" archetypes from books and movies always recognize that there's at least a few "good ones". Heck, a Druid would have more reason to indiscriminately kill Undead (they care more about the "aberration") than a Paladin, who's more concerned with preserving the Divine Justice or whatever. Not even a Druid, really, because they aren't ACTUAL undead, they haven't returned from a natural death to unnatural life, they're still alive, just with properties of un-life.

If the Flame has a use for a PM in combatting the forces of evil that threaten the faithful, who is the Paladin to judge him?
If its dead and moving kill it.

It's the shanto monk half that has the real problem with it.

[HAL]

No what would be fun would be for this to be SOP. As it should be. Its not griefing for paladins to be killing undead on sight. Its the most D&D thing I have seen in this game in years. Expecting people who want to take on the persona of a paladin to tolerate those who persue the path of darkness is WRONG

You are correct except for one thing: If a Paladin agrees to cooperate with a Pale Master, it is WRONG to go against that agreement and kill him.

[cdbd3rd]

Booooo! Fixing all the fun stuff.

It all started long ago one rainy afternoon when one dev was teasing another in their game about being able to spin while resting at a rest shrine....

:rolleyes:

[toaftoaf]

You are correct except for one thing: If a Paladin agrees to cooperate with a Pale Master, it is WRONG to go against that agreement and kill him.

"i would have done anything to save my daughter"

[Archangel_666]

and dismiss and resummons my skeleton, wich makes him loose all the other buffs and costs me 10 hp and 10 sp, but that is not a good solution.


There's an alternative work-around I've found for the Skellie pet. Have it Shrine. Removes the Deathward, but keeps the Ship Buffs.

Not ideal, but there you go. *shrug*

[Nimulos]

What part of "hunter of the dead" don't you people understand?

My shintao monk/pally doesn't give a flying F if your lawful good or not. You are still a aberration that need to be smitith. That fact that you choose to be tainted is all the more reason to strike down upon the with great anger and furious vengeance.

Then we should a) have something to protect us from light damage, as you do have deathward and b) have some evil spells or something (we can't read the dead girls evil spellbook, we can't use duality, to give an example what could/should be fixed) that is not blocked by deathward and does notable damage to you or any other way to make up for the advantages you have. Also, how would you put that ingame? a pvp mode where anyone else that has pvp mode on can battle you right in the city without arena or anything, and without harming the others? Or just that every Paladin can attack any Pale master and some higher trolls go push themselves by killing noobs and killing their joy.

Maybe an evil aligned part of the game would be possible too, with a completely different city where you arrive, you would have to unlock it ingame first through a certain questline or favor with a faction or some total favor step or something. Inside each others city you can't battle, but there is an open pvp area somewehre in between, where your spells only affect evil aligned (or good/neutral aligned if on the other side). Though that would be a HUGE deal of work, having to rework questlines or more likely make new ones that fit for an evil char.

As of now, neither does exist and only a way for Pallys to kill PM and not the other way round is unfair and any battle options unbalanced, thus it needs to be fixed.



If the Flame has a use for a PM in combatting the forces of evil that threaten the faithful, who is the Paladin to judge him?

Seeing as my PM is a rather uncommon type of Undying Court follower (rolewise) and the Flame practically can't stand the thought of any other faith playing a role (The quest with the sovereign host followers that apparently insulted a flame priest and need to be killed under the banner "Purge the Heretics", I don't know wether there are more), they would despise me anyways, too bad one can't work for an other religion and against the flame (I guess that would be evil, and evil is absolute here and the devs are biased towards the flame).


If its dead and moving kill it.

It's the shanto monk half that has the real problem with it.

Then I should be able to at least hold you off by some means, if I can't convince you that I am on your side. (In game lore the suggestion spell should allow me to convince you to leave me be, but that's not possible in the actual game)


There's an alternative work-around I've found for the Skellie pet. Have it Shrine. Removes the Deathward, but keeps the Ship Buffs.

Not ideal, but there you go. *shrug*

That does help with keeping the shippies, but until I actually get to a shrine it might be destroyed already. I know no quests that are in the level range where death ward mass get's problematic and have a shrine right away at the beginning, aside from the fact that this technique also removes any other buffs the buffers had cast on it.

[Tscheuss]

.
.
.
Seeing as my PM is a rather uncommon type of Undying Court follower (rolewise) and the Flame practically can't stand the thought of any other faith playing a role (The quest with the sovereign host followers that apparently insulted a flame priest and need to be killed under the banner "Purge the Heretics", I don't know wether there are more), they would despise me anyways, too bad one can't work for an other religion and against the flame (I guess that would be evil, and evil is absolute here and the devs are biased towards the flame).
.
.
.

"Purge the Heretics" is given by Inquisitor Gnomon, who is a Rakshasa in disguise; this quest is hardly evidence regarding the true motives of the Silver Flame. ;)

[NaturalHazard]

This is why you shouldn't trust those paladins..........."trust me im a paladin"....."im lawful good"...........yeah right.

[Nimulos]

"Purge the Heretics" is given by Inquisitor Gnomon, who is a Rakshasa in disguise; this quest is hardly evidence regarding the true motives of the Silver Flame. ;)

Wait, what? lemme check...

Right you are, I did not notice that...

That changes things a little, but it does not improve my view of the flame as intolerant.

Still, wether it would be roleplay-fitting or not, fixing it is the better option until maybe a good solution for the roleplay battle is found that will ensure that only the roleplayers combat each other and noone that just wants to play without immediately getting nuked to death by OP pallys gets hindered.

[Karavek]

What part of "hunter of the dead" don't you people understand?

My shintao monk/pally doesn't give a flying F if your lawful good or not. You are still a aberration that need to be smitith. That fact that you choose to be tainted is all the more reason to strike down upon the with great anger and furious vengeance.

Well spoken brother well spoken.

[Karavek]

You are correct except for one thing: If a Paladin agrees to cooperate with a Pale Master, it is WRONG to go against that agreement and kill him.

Nope, old article in an issue of dragon clearly outlines that a DM may not punish a player of faith for being a true zealot who may well use questionable tools from time to time, but will also dispose of them once they have finished their use. When one serves a higher calling, all things not of that faith are instantly potential enemies that need to be dealt with if they can not be converted. Things like undead and the act of making/becoming one willing always makes a player become CE instantly and has been that way in the rules since 1st ed.

There is no such thing as a good undead in PnP. The ONE exception I can recall found in an official published module and was from the realms, was a wizard who was also a devout follower of deneir the god of knowledge, He apparently was so engrossed in study that after he died from old age, deneir himself made the man a form of lich to keep on studying and keeping watch over his vast library.

I can think of a novel written about a sun elf cleric of lathander who was turned into a vampire and guess what he still was instantly evil, tormented yes but evil, and infact was all the more evil in the eyes of the Powers That Be for the greater fall he took, hence he was sucked into ravenloft and it seemed ravenloft even wanted to use him to replace Mr Big Vamp himself. In the end only in his final moment of self sacrifice did that sun elf taste a LG alignment again, and still due to the game rule mechanics that I know of for that setting, there was no way in the 9 hells and the abyss's infinite layers for Lathander to reach in to that plane to rescue the poor SoBs soul. So an act of self sacrifice with the reward being eternal abandonment and torment in a realm of purest darkness. YAY!

Good does not tolerate evil, evil rather craves to be surrounded by good to reach out and corrupt. Undead are an intolerable thing to see walk our fair streets.

[Havok.cry]

"trust me im a paladin"....."im lawful good"

That is what every blackgaurd I have ever met said.

[Karavek]

Then we should a) have something to protect us from light damage, as you do have deathward and b) have some evil spells or something (we can't read the dead girls evil spellbook, we can't use duality, to give an example what could/should be fixed) that is not blocked by deathward and does notable damage to you or any other way to make up for the advantages you have. Also, how would you put that ingame? a pvp mode where anyone else that has pvp mode on can battle you right in the city without arena or anything, and without harming the others? Or just that every Paladin can attack any Pale master and some higher trolls go push themselves by killing noobs and killing their joy.

Maybe an evil aligned part of the game would be possible too, with a completely different city where you arrive, you would have to unlock it ingame first through a certain questline or favor with a faction or some total favor step or something. Inside each others city you can't battle, but there is an open pvp area somewehre in between, where your spells only affect evil aligned (or good/neutral aligned if on the other side). Though that would be a HUGE deal of work, having to rework questlines or more likely make new ones that fit for an evil char.

As of now, neither does exist and only a way for Pallys to kill PM and not the other way round is unfair and any battle options unbalanced, thus it needs to be fixed.



Seeing as my PM is a rather uncommon type of Undying Court follower (rolewise) and the Flame practically can't stand the thought of any other faith playing a role (The quest with the sovereign host followers that apparently insulted a flame priest and need to be killed under the banner "Purge the Heretics", I don't know wether there are more), they would despise me anyways, too bad one can't work for an other religion and against the flame (I guess that would be evil, and evil is absolute here and the devs are biased towards the flame).



Then I should be able to at least hold you off by some means, if I can't convince you that I am on your side. (In game lore the suggestion spell should allow me to convince you to leave me be, but that's not possible in the actual game)



That does help with keeping the shippies, but until I actually get to a shrine it might be destroyed already. I know no quests that are in the level range where death ward mass get's problematic and have a shrine right away at the beginning, aside from the fact that this technique also removes any other buffs the buffers had cast on it.

While I personally would be happy to have a real open world pvp enviroment more akin to real D&D my real point was if they dont allow us to even pick evil alignments, why did they ever add the option to be undead, something inherently evil by its very nature in the greater view of the meta physical rules that govern the system. Granted eberron had an exception in the Undying Court, and I vehemently feel to this day its wrong for any but high elves to have an undead option in the game world we are given. Having a undying racial PRE for them would of been the best way to ever give undead as an option for us and not clashed with lore and tradition. They could of even made it a benefit of TRing an elf. Due to the obvious power of an undead arcane or dvine, it would of beena fair way to balance it rather then just give undead as a standard way for all wizards to persue, when in PnP vampire is something anyone can become, and lich is something any caster arcane or divine can choose to persue( if evil ofcourse)

[FranOhmsford]

While I personally would be happy to have a real open world pvp enviroment more akin to real D&D my real point was if they dont allow us to even pick evil alignments, why did they ever add the option to be undead, something inherently evil by its very nature in the greater view of the meta physical rules that govern the system. Granted eberron had an exception in the Undying Court, and I vehemently feel to this day its wrong for any but high elves to have an undead option in the game world we are given. Having a undying racial PRE for them would of been the best way to ever give undead as an option for us and not clashed with lore and tradition. They could of even made it a benefit of TRing an elf. Due to the obvious power of an undead arcane or dvine, it would of beena fair way to balance it rather then just give undead as a standard way for all wizards to persue, when in PnP vampire is something anyone can become, and lich is something any caster arcane or divine can choose to persue( if evil ofcourse)

Amazing!

A Karavek Post that I can fully agree with!

Well...Except for the first Line that is - D&D is and always has been a co-operative game - You want PvP this is NOT the Game for You!


We seem to be getting more and more Evil Options in the game while the Devs insist on NO Evil Alignments!

This is Hypocrisy of the Highest Order from Turbine!


The Necromancy = Evil thing is something I've always been opposed to - Necromancy can be used for good too!

Giving us the Pale Master Prestige and then allowing it to become the Favored Prestige of the Elitists to the point where Archmages have been looked down on for as long as I've been playing DDO is Wrong!

I've already been told in game that my Archmage {who I wasn't even on at the time!} is Gimp for Not taking Zombie Form!
Archmage is a great secondary tree for PMs but PM gives almost nothing to an Archmage in my opinion!

Sorry - It does give Self Healing - Wherein lies the Problem!
WF are Inherently the top choice for Arcanes because of Reconstruct!
Pale Masters are Inherently ahead of Archmages because of Self-Healing!

BUT I don't want to be forced into either WF or PM!

I also don't want to keep seeing Evil Options give more than Good Options in Game!
True Neutral and Stability was Bad Enough - At one point pretty much everyone was telling Newbies in General Chat to go True Neutral!

Oh and Now Pure Good's gone hasn't it...Just tiers of Holy so no need to be Good to avoid the Insanely High UMD requirements any more!
Yet Another Nail in the Coffin of Good in DDO!

[Arnez]

WAITAMINUTE.


If a PM types /death- what happens?!?!?


(or more importantly- what *should* happen?)

[NaturalHazard]

Don't the elves have liches who are actually good or even at least neutral who help look after and guard their communities and or mythals or whatever?

Though I can see how necromancy can be bad with raising unwilling undead and creating monsters, thinking undead like vampires and gouls for example.

[Karavek]

Amazing!

A Karavek Post that I can fully agree with!

Well...Except for the first Line that is - D&D is and always has been a co-operative game - You want PvP this is NOT the Game for You!


We seem to be getting more and more Evil Options in the game while the Devs insist on NO Evil Alignments!

This is Hypocrisy of the Highest Order from Turbine!


The Necromancy = Evil thing is something I've always been opposed to - Necromancy can be used for good too!

Giving us the Pale Master Prestige and then allowing it to become the Favored Prestige of the Elitists to the point where Archmages have been looked down on for as long as I've been playing DDO is Wrong!

I've already been told in game that my Archmage {who I wasn't even on at the time!} is Gimp for Not taking Zombie Form!
Archmage is a great secondary tree for PMs but PM gives almost nothing to an Archmage in my opinion!

Sorry - It does give Self Healing - Wherein lies the Problem!
WF are Inherently the top choice for Arcanes because of Reconstruct!
Pale Masters are Inherently ahead of Archmages because of Self-Healing!

BUT I don't want to be forced into either WF or PM!

I also don't want to keep seeing Evil Options give more than Good Options in Game!
True Neutral and Stability was Bad Enough - At one point pretty much everyone was telling Newbies in General Chat to go True Neutral!

Oh and Now Pure Good's gone hasn't it...Just tiers of Holy so no need to be Good to avoid the Insanely High UMD requirements any more!
Yet Another Nail in the Coffin of Good in DDO!

Actually D&D at its core is PvP. What you like so many here have a mistaken view of is seeing the term PvP as player vs player when it fact it originally meant person vs person, and was a setting found on things like old electronic chess boards longs before the age of the internet. Every session of D&D around the table top is just that a living thinking mind working against another. using game mechanics to create scenerios and bring about situations meant to confuse, and outright defeat your opponents. Sometimes the DM will be many beings at once, sometimes he will be trying to dumb down his own tactical mind to better RP unthinking foes, or doing his damndest to get inside the role or a super genius 40,000 year old elder wyrm. But D&D is and always has been about the best quality PVP to be found in any game.

Likewise the main thing people want when asking for more and better challenges in the PVE game is limited by AI, and sadly DDO AI is a true laughing stock among MMOdom and always has. Even cheap fly by night korean grinder MMO AI usually is smart enough to avoid persistance dmg aoe effects as much as possible to the point laying them down is usually more of a CC tactic then a DPS one and feels like a smarter game design for it.

While some care bears loathe the idea of PvP, the closest thing I have ever had to true RP character immersion in an MMO was in the open world pvp RP server of age of conan. Only when everyone player and npc is seen as the same do you become one with the world, when every person who walks down the road may choose to be a bandit intent on taking your life do you find yourself actually being in the role of your character.

[Krelar]

There is no such thing as a good undead in PnP. The ONE exception I can recall found in an official published module and was from the realms, was a wizard who was also a devout follower of deneir the god of knowledge, He apparently was so engrossed in study that after he died from old age, deneir himself made the man a form of lich to keep on studying and keeping watch over his vast library.

You might want to look up Baelnorn, they have been around since at least AD&D 2nd edition.

[Karavek]

Don't the elves have liches who are actually good or even at least neutral who help look after and guard their communities and or mythals or whatever?

Though I can see how necromancy can be bad with raising unwilling undead and creating monsters, thinking undead like vampires and gouls for example.

I actually metnioned above about the undying court and how high elves should have a racial undead PRE to follow if they so choose despite class. Likeiwse as another poster noted a major issue is found in the fact that so long as warforged and PM have a strong self healing advantage they will remain the superior choices for viable survivable builds for play, and those who dont bow to this will likely find themselves exiled from groups as most will not want to let them be a waste of a slot as some put it.

The fact is forged should not be capable of being any kind of caster as the only construct I ever recall seeing rules for why they can even cast magic and learn it are arcane constructs who absorb magic from wizards to refuel

Likewise the only option for non evil undead in our games setting are the undying elves. Considering how much elves have been insulted and called inherently gimp for years over things as simple as their con loss for dex etc.

[Karavek]

You might want to look up Baelnorn, they have been around since at least AD&D 2nd edition.

Oh I am, they frequently get used by GMs as a form of guardian for tombs. I believe they where originally from a FR module and printed in its compendium pages then later reprinted in one of the MMC series books. While they are not technically evil or good, in general they tend to be very hostile to those who encounter them if they are not elves and aware of the undead being and its reasons for being their.

[Havok.cry]

Also the only necromancy spells that are inherently evil, are the ones that have the evil descriptor. If it doesn't have that, then it isn't evil. The person wielding it might be, but the spell itself isn't.

[ForgettableNPC]

Whelp, time to look for Pale Masters and turn them before patch 2, I guess.

And before anyone asks, no, not that kind of turning.

[Runeskald71]

Whelp, time to look for Pale Masters and turn them before patch 2, I guess.And before anyone asks, no, not that kind of turning. Ugh and here I am without a paladin... oh wait what is this? a +20 heart of wood? Muhhahaha!

[Ralmeth]

Already stopped 2 vile undead from wandering freely among the streets of the Reach. Finally we lawful good paladins can take battle to the streets against the abominations who litter our fair city. No undead will walk here as long as warriors of the silver flame stand strong.

On a side note until they let me play an evil assassin or PM and makes content to cater to both spectrums of the alignment I will not tolerate so called good undead when on my own good characters. Followers of good dieties DO NOT TOLERATE UNDEAD EVER!

/Like

[NaturalHazard]

I blame the twilight series for all this undead griefing.

[Karavek]

Well to date Ive put to rest around 2 dozen vile abominations wandering around my fair Reach. Some take it hard, some are taken totally by surprise, some take it as a funny joke to laugh about. I always give fair warning when I step into a zone, declaring it under the protection of the silver flame and any undead best beware my light.

Now on a serious note, while I know it must come off as me sounding like a royal griefer but its actually the exact opposite. I am doing my part in game to spread the awareness of this bug so people dont get abused by it during far more critical situations then just standing around a public zone.

Ive already heard of it being used to outright threaten and abuse PM players in game into passing named loot or putting it up for a roll even when they have real need for the item themselves. I had a friend who hadnt heard of this bug in a raid recently get a rather nice bit of named loot drop for him( specifically the much coveted ring of spell storing) when a unusal sorc blend with 4 rather then 2 typical lvls of paladin told him to pass to him or be killed. My friend thought he was just being some wise ass joker and said it was his, boom put down before he had a chance to claim his loot, and no one was willing to rez him( serious sign of the lvl of apathy being found in pugs on Gland these days if you ask me when all would rather laugh at such abuse rather then take a stand) So my friend feeling utterly disgusted logged off, and then deleted DDO from his pc. He just has that little desire to look at the game for the forseeable future.

So while what I am doing, hunting the undead who wander the streets, may seem cruel and unkind, it is far better a place to learn of this then inside a quest with some divine splash who has it just to try and brow beat others.

[NaturalHazard]

Well to date Ive put to rest around 2 dozen vile abominations wandering around my fair Reach. Some take it hard, some are taken totally by surprise, some take it as a funny joke to laugh about. I always give fair warning when I step into a zone, declaring it under the protection of the silver flame and any undead best beware my light.

Now on a serious note, while I know it must come off as me sounding like a royal griefer but its actually the exact opposite. I am doing my part in game to spread the awareness of this bug so people dont get abused by it during far more critical situations then just standing around a public zone.

Ive already heard of it being used to outright threaten and abuse PM players in game into passing named loot or putting it up for a roll even when they have real need for the item themselves. I had a friend who hadnt heard of this bug in a raid recently get a rather nice bit of named loot drop for him( specifically the much coveted ring of spell storing) when a unusal sorc blend with 4 rather then 2 typical lvls of paladin told him to pass to him or be killed. My friend thought he was just being some wise ass joker and said it was his, boom put down before he had a chance to claim his loot, and no one was willing to rez him( serious sign of the lvl of apathy being found in pugs on Gland these days if you ask me when all would rather laugh at such abuse rather then take a stand) So my friend feeling utterly disgusted logged off, and then deleted DDO from his pc. He just has that little desire to look at the game for the forseeable future.

So while what I am doing, hunting the undead who wander the streets, may seem cruel and unkind, it is far better a place to learn of this then inside a quest with some divine splash who has it just to try and brow beat others.

wow sorry for your friend I didnt realise people could be such ******/bags............is one way of countering this dropping form at end chests? But you shouldn't need to. That kind of behaviour deserves a lengthy bann, or a perma bann, anyone I see doing anything like this will be blacklisted and their name passed around that is NW type behaviour not really use to seeing stuff like that in DDO.

[Tscheuss]

Actually D&D at its core is PvP. What you like so many here have a mistaken view of is seeing the term PvP as player vs player when it fact it originally meant person vs person, and was a setting found on things like old electronic chess boards longs before the age of the internet. Every session of D&D around the table top is just that a living thinking mind working against another. using game mechanics to create scenerios and bring about situations meant to confuse, and outright defeat your opponents. Sometimes the DM will be many beings at once, sometimes he will be trying to dumb down his own tactical mind to better RP unthinking foes, or doing his damndest to get inside the role or a super genius 40,000 year old elder wyrm. But D&D is and always has been about the best quality PVP to be found in any game.

Likewise the main thing people want when asking for more and better challenges in the PVE game is limited by AI, and sadly DDO AI is a true laughing stock among MMOdom and always has. Even cheap fly by night korean grinder MMO AI usually is smart enough to avoid persistance dmg aoe effects as much as possible to the point laying them down is usually more of a CC tactic then a DPS one and feels like a smarter game design for it.

While some care bears loathe the idea of PvP, the closest thing I have ever had to true RP character immersion in an MMO was in the open world pvp RP server of age of conan. Only when everyone player and npc is seen as the same do you become one with the world, when every person who walks down the road may choose to be a bandit intent on taking your life do you find yourself actually being in the role of your character.

Erm... electronic chessboards arrived some time AFTER the internet. Just sayin'. :p

[Inoukchuk]

No what would be fun would be for this to be SOP. As it should be. Its not griefing for paladins to be killing undead on sight. Its the most D&D thing I have seen in this game in years. Expecting people who want to take on the persona of a paladin to tolerate those who persue the path of darkness is WRONG

Well, that MIGHT be fair IF our spells affected you too, have some fun with polar ray for 2500 damage. You have 2500 hp right?

[Inoukchuk]

No what would be fun would be for this to be SOP. As it should be. Its not griefing for paladins to be killing undead on sight. Its the most D&D thing I have seen in this game in years. Expecting people who want to take on the persona of a paladin to tolerate those who persue the path of darkness is WRONG

Well, that MIGHT be fair IF our spells affected you too, have some fun with polar ray for 2500 damage. You have 2500 hp right?

[Nodoze]

Nope, old article in an issue of dragon clearly outlines that a DM may not punish a player of faith for being a true zealot ...

There is no such thing as a good undead in PnP. The ONE exception I can recall found in an official published module and was from the realms, was a wizard who was also a devout follower of deneir the god of knowledge, He apparently was so engrossed in study that after he died from old age, deneir himself made the man a form of lich to keep on studying and keeping watch over his vast library. ...Don't forget Revenants.

http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Revenant

I am not familier with this version (that doesn't look evil) but do remember one from AD&D that I didn't remember being evil either...

[Gkar]

No what would be fun would be for this to be SOP. As it should be. Its not griefing for paladins to be killing undead on sight. Its the most D&D thing I have seen in this game in years. Expecting people who want to take on the persona of a paladin to tolerate those who persue the path of darkness is WRONG

Sorry bud, you are in Eberron. Any clerics or paladins of the undying court draw their power from a group of GOOD aligned LICHES so things aren't quite so cut and dry.

[FellgraveTharashk]

Hilarious!

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm putting in a fix now for Patch 2.

How many bug reports went in when the enhancement trees were being tested on Lama about this specifically?

I've seen too many /rage "reported it on Lama now it's jacked up on live no action taken" threads/posts to be really surprised. . . or I thought I had.

[mexico1910]

I have a level 10 permadeath PM. I would be livid if someone did that to me.

[NaturalHazard]

I have a level 10 permadeath PM. I would be livid if someone did that to me.

be extra careful don't go about in form in public areas, :)

[Ungood]

Already stopped 2 vile undead from wandering freely among the streets of the Reach. Finally we lawful good paladins can take battle to the streets against the abominations who litter our fair city. No undead will walk here as long as warriors of the silver flame stand strong.

On a side note until they let me play an evil assassin or PM and makes content to cater to both spectrums of the alignment I will not tolerate so called good undead when on my own good characters. Followers of good dieties DO NOT TOLERATE UNDEAD EVER!

Now what would be funny, would be if DDO responded to this like DnD, where if a Paladin killed a good aligned Pale Master, they lost all their Paladin abilities.

Because like it or not, undead or not, a good aligned player killing a another good aligned player would be considered a breach in the Lawful Good Alignment, and that would be enough for a paladin to have lost every ability they own, which would make them pretty much feat starved fighters.

Now.. THAT would be funny!

[Ungood]

I have a level 10 permadeath PM. I would be livid if someone did that to me.

IIRC dying to a bug is not considered a "death" in a PD guild.

[HernandoCortez]

Hilarious!

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm putting in a fix now for Patch 2.

I don't think so. Thats sad...

[Highlander]

Hilarious!

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm putting in a fix now for Patch 2.

Hey Feather - you might have found this "Hilarious", but your many players being affected by the one sided PvP in public areas are starting to get pretty peeved.
There is no way to defend against it and the griefers are having a ball.
Might want to stop chuckling and get a hotfix out?
Just sayin.....

[zDragonz]

Also fix the noise from what ever it is that these undead forms give out. I hate it. It is like an alarm clock! that has no snooze! so fkn annoying!

[Nodoze]

Hey Feather - you might have found this "Hilarious", but your many players being affected by the one sided PvP in public areas are starting to get pretty peeved.
There is no way to defend against it and the griefers are having a ball.
Might want to stop chuckling and get a hotfix out?
Just sayin.....We found it really funny in our party... Even did it a few times after the first accident just for fun. Our PaleMaster was laughing so hard he couldn't breathe and I was crying...

I frankly think there are worse issues/bugs in the game than this that should be prioritized higher but was impressed that they prioritized this as high as they did and committed to putting it into the next patch...

Personally don't think jumping on Feather helps or is warranted (in general but certainly in this thread the jumped in quickly)...

I agree it could be pretty annoying in public but you can turn it off...

[Whitering]

We found it really funny in our party... Even did it a few times after the first accident just for fun. Our PaleMaster was laughing so hard he couldn't breathe and I was crying...

I frankly think there are worse issues/bugs in the game than this that should be prioritized higher but was impressed that they prioritized this as high as they did and committed to putting it into the next patch...

Personally don't think jumping on Feather helps or is warranted (in general but certainly in this thread the jumped in quickly)...

I agree it could be pretty annoying in public but you can turn it off...

I also thought it was hilarious, until I read about that PoS sorc at the end chest thing. Mind you, I don't have a PM, or Pally at this point. I do have a cleric, but I had never thought about doing this and never would. Would DR Evil or whatever block it, any spell absorb item? Not that you should have to use such a thing, but you know.

[Ungood]

We found it really funny in our party... Even did it a few times after the first accident just for fun. Our PaleMaster was laughing so hard he couldn't breathe and I was crying...

My PM got death warded in an Abbot raid before I knew about the bug... that was some fun right there!

[Systern]

Well to date Ive put to rest around 2 dozen vile abominations wandering around my fair Reach. Some take it hard, some are taken totally by surprise, some take it as a funny joke to laugh about. I always give fair warning when I step into a zone, declaring it under the protection of the silver flame and any undead best beware my light.

Now on a serious note, while I know it must come off as me sounding like a royal griefer but its actually the exact opposite. I am doing my part in game to spread the awareness of this bug so people dont get abused by it during far more critical situations then just standing around a public zone.

Ive already heard of it being used to outright threaten and abuse PM players in game into passing named loot or putting it up for a roll even when they have real need for the item themselves. I had a friend who hadnt heard of this bug in a raid recently get a rather nice bit of named loot drop for him( specifically the much coveted ring of spell storing) when a unusal sorc blend with 4 rather then 2 typical lvls of paladin told him to pass to him or be killed. My friend thought he was just being some wise ass joker and said it was his, boom put down before he had a chance to claim his loot, and no one was willing to rez him( serious sign of the lvl of apathy being found in pugs on Gland these days if you ask me when all would rather laugh at such abuse rather then take a stand) So my friend feeling utterly disgusted logged off, and then deleted DDO from his pc. He just has that little desire to look at the game for the forseeable future.

So while what I am doing, hunting the undead who wander the streets, may seem cruel and unkind, it is far better a place to learn of this then inside a quest with some divine splash who has it just to try and brow beat others.

Cool Story Bro...

Ring of Spell Storing comes from an explorer chest, not a raid.


Boasting that one is griefing people in the name of role-playing doesn't make one any less of a jerk... Even with a made-up "Other people are doing much worse" story.

[Highlander]

Personally don't think jumping on Feather helps or is warranted (in general but certainly in this thread the jumped in quickly)...

I agree it could be pretty annoying in public but you can turn it off...


Didn't think I was jumping on Feather - just pointing out that hs response was not well considered.
Glad your party found it funny, but not everyone does.

Regarding turning it off. Yes you can. You can also not grief as well.
And to be fair, it easy to forget to change stances etc, so I assume form can be the same if you are used to being in it.
It's a silly bug to get onto live and it should be fixed "soon".
It does not affect my toons, but I think it should Eberron addressed.

You have some geniuses like Karavek who tries to justify his spoiling other people's fun as roleplaying and other BS.
There's plenty to do in this game other than harming other PC's who cannot fight back.

Regardless of the priority, let's hope it does get fixed.

[mexico1910]

IIRC dying to a bug is not considered a "death" in a PD guild.

Every PD guild has different rules.

If I followed my guild protocol for bug deaths, I would probably have to go through a whole process to prove that it was such, which would include things like taking screen shots to include location and the combat log showing the damage, posting a trouble ticket, and then making a post about it in the guild forums requesting permission to continue. Granted there is a PvP clause that states that PvP deaths don't count, however it wouldn't occur in the normal PvP fashion of the game, so I would likely have to go through the whole bureaucratic mess. And why? Because some punk who probably doesn't ever get into character decided to "RP" his paladin for the express purpose of trolling other players?

I've kept this character death free for over a year and a half. But now I have to worry about roving bands of vigilante paladins and my party cleric accidentally turning me.

[Karavek]

Now what would be funny, would be if DDO responded to this like DnD, where if a Paladin killed a good aligned Pale Master, they lost all their Paladin abilities.

Because like it or not, undead or not, a good aligned player killing a another good aligned player would be considered a breach in the Lawful Good Alignment, and that would be enough for a paladin to have lost every ability they own, which would make them pretty much feat starved fighters.

Now.. THAT would be funny!

Actually nope. Several very informative articles where written in dragon over the years on this very topic, my favoirte was 37 flavors of lawful good, an article that detailed how things like a lawful good zealot type paladin would be entirely justified on killing anyone not of his faith who refused to convert. Which in the eyes of that paladin and his god would be a major act of evil. Such meta physical aspects while certainly fun to debate where there largely to allow those wanting to be a paladin to not be caught up in what is generally referred to as lawful stupid.

The best way to put it is if one considers a character from something like forever knight, a series where a form knight templar and crusader who was turned to a vampire and gave into his blood lust for centuries then attempted to atone, but never was able to. His soul was too corrupt. Even at his best and most noble any paladin would have been entirely justified in smiting the poor SoB.

Personally my favorite was the racist paladin, largely a concept from 3E+ where paladin was no longer purely a human class, one could for example be an elven paladin and following traditional elven superiority complex behavior would be entirely justified in only defending elfkin and dispatching threats to his people. He could stand by and laugh while a dwarven family was slaughtered and would only intervene if some threat to elfdom presented itself.

my favorite is blending the elf paladin,champion of correlion ( elf only) prc and bladsinge prc for a very elfcentric noble and righteous warrior who is only bound to defend his own kind and all others are up to his discretion.

One could for example be a paladin/ranger with favored enemy undead and little to nothing between heaven and earth could come between him and a vile walking abomination.

[Philibusta]

Followers of good dieties DO NOT TOLERATE UNDEAD EVER!

Oh really? So then....what's your explanation for the Undying Court?

[ericrd]

according to another forum pm killers are being held responsible for thier actions by turbine ....so kill the undead at your peril

[rest]

Cool Story Bro...

Ring of Spell Storing comes from an explorer chest, not a raid.


Boasting that one is griefing people in the name of role-playing doesn't make one any less of a jerk... Even with a made-up "Other people are doing much worse" story.
Glorious exposition, comrade.

Explorer items can drop in DQ raid chest.

Edit: at least on epic, where I've seen them personally.

[Nodoze]

Didn't think I was jumping on Feather - just pointing out that hs response was not well considered.
Glad your party found it funny, but not everyone does.

Regarding turning it off. Yes you can. You can also not grief as well.
And to be fair, it easy to forget to change stances etc, so I assume form can be the same if you are used to being in it.
It's a silly bug to get onto live and it should be fixed "soon".
It does not affect my toons, but I think it should Eberron addressed.

You have some geniuses like Karavek who tries to justify his spoiling other people's fun as roleplaying and other BS.
There's plenty to do in this game other than harming other PC's who cannot fight back.

Regardless of the priority, let's hope it does get fixed.Fair enough! I personally wouldn't do it to people I didn't know unless they were total jerks and really deserved it (can't imagine doing it but I suspect someone somewhere would find a way to deserve it)... I agree it should not be abused and hope it is fixed soon & was surprised/pleased it was slated as fast as it was.

[phalaeo2]

I was doing one of the Wheloon quests on my Paladin. There were shadows, and I just started spamming Turns. Took me a while to notice that the Pale Master was taking a ton of damage. Then I put two and two together and apologized profusely. We'd already been in the quest only 10 minutes and I'd been bombing the poor guy and not even realizing it. :(

[vampiregoat69]

I find that this bug needs to be removed with this one and the DW bug I think it is time to hang up my PM. I was standing in market trying to get a group for a quest and a certain player decided it would be funny to one shot me and ruin half of my equipment FIX THIS BUG NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kierg10]

LOL I think this bug is hilarious, now I just need to make a paladin and stalk a friend's completionist palemaster :3

[toaftoaf]

i was just mind numblingly hitting my buffs, and hit deathward by mistake. fix this **** turbine, your incompetence is getting old

[Ungood]

Actually nope. Several very informative articles where written in dragon over the years on this very topic, my favoirte was 37 flavors of lawful good, an article that detailed how things like a lawful good zealot type paladin would be entirely justified on killing anyone not of his faith who refused to convert. Which in the eyes of that paladin and his god would be a major act of evil. Such meta physical aspects while certainly fun to debate where there largely to allow those wanting to be a paladin to not be caught up in what is generally referred to as lawful stupid.

No. In DnD, Good is an absolute, and it is universal, thus, anyone of a good alignment killing another player of a good alignment would be a violation of the good alignment.


Personally my favorite was the racist paladin, largely a concept from 3E+ where paladin was no longer purely a human class, one could for example be an elven paladin and following traditional elven superiority complex behavior would be entirely justified in only defending elfkin and dispatching threats to his people. He could stand by and laugh while a dwarven family was slaughtered and would only intervene if some threat to elfdom presented itself.

In 3rd edition, it is stated that all paladins share a common bond and consider each other part of a greater whole, this anyone that would watch a fellow paladins family be butchered would be no longer part of that universal whole that is being a paladin.

Not to mention, the simple act of being racist would make someone Neutral to Evil by default, and remove the ability to be "Good" which again, is not defined by personal view, but an absolute, there is Good, Evil, and Neutral, in DnD, each one definitive of the other.


my favorite is blending the elf paladin,champion of correlion ( elf only) prc and bladsinge prc for a very elfcentric noble and righteous warrior who is only bound to defend his own kind and all others are up to his discretion.

Then he is not Good. Compassion is universal, defending and providing for others is not something a Good Person can chose to withhold and still claim to be good in DnD. That was the draw back of being Lawful Good.

You had to be Good, and you had to be lawful, you could not opt to be cold hearted, you could not opt to be a jerk, you had to show compassion, mercy, and forgiveness, benevolence, and kindness, you had to hold true to your word and follow the laws of the land.

Forcing a Paladin to be Lawful Good, was in fact a Limitation upon them to be difficult to play.