TWF feats now work with Wolf and Bear forms, is this wai?

[VorpalKnight]

tldr? Are the GWF feats working with animal form working as currently intended? Are you thinking about changing them so that they do not benefit druids while on animal form in the future?

......
Just came back to ddo and found a pleasant surprise; Druids now benefit from TWF feats. I am pretty certain its not working as intended and is going to be fixed soon, but I certainly hope you guys reconsider and it will be declared wai as an early Christmas gift to us druids that were looking to be in animal form from the start and had to change into a caster 18/2 or tr into another class.

Personally I think it was a bit silly that animal form did not benefit from TWF feats from day one as Elemental form has quite a few advantages:

1.On the melee hybrid side splashing 2 monks and using Water elemental form while still doing good in melee since GWF added offhand strikes while on ele forms. You also gain 2 extra feats that you can use for TWF and Stunning fist or Power attack, thanks to these you can more meta magic feats.

2. Water elemental form made landing your quake and other spells more reliable for all other casters thanks to Mantle of the Icy Soul made and for fire you could have a fire aura aoe that is pretty decent, compared to ele forms it seems like Animal form Druids where just there for flavor.

3. Spells do not have a 2.5 increased cooldown on elemental forms compared to animal forms, even with the capstone from nature warriors you will still end up with a 50% longer cooldown than Fire/Water ele forms.

4. Crown of Summer (I seriously love this spell on my 18/2 druid)

5. Sla's from Natures Herald that can be empowered, maximized, etc.. for free. The SA is nice addition to wolf forms but without offhand attacks you will still do much more melee damage as a 18/2 splash with GWF feats.

6. Cannot use heal scrolls while in animal form.

Animal form druids have a lot going against them, it seems that the only thing that would make animal forms a decent alternative to pure caster druid, or 18/2 builds is the GWF feats working while in animal forms. I honestly believe that they intended for GWF feats to work while in animal form on live, if anything just to test it out since I didn't see many druids, let alone animal form druids and they wanted to make them more viable, I just want some clarification if its going to stay that way and its as intended.

[Violith]

hopefully a dev does reply, there was a few other threads like this but so far no comment as to whether it is WAI, or going to change or even if they have knowledge that it is happening. I'm currently holding off on using the 20LR for my main due to this, sicne if it does work and is WAI then he'll be switching to use those.

[SerPounce]

Yeah, we've been asking whether this is WAI in half a dozen threads since Lamannia, but apparently it's too much to ask of the devs to write "WAI" or "not WAI" in any of the threads (or even "we haven't decided"). I really like this game, but I'm so fed up with the lack of documentation about how things are suppose to work and lack of communication to clear up the ambiguity left by that lack of documentation. We don't even know what to bug report because we have no idea how things are suppose to work.

Come on Devs, is this, or is this not WAI?

I think it's a great change that will finally make animal druids a viable choice (and get rid of the previous byzantine and counter-intuitive mechanic that only the most hardcore druid players understood), but I don't want to rebuild my druid around it only to have the "bug" get "fixed" in the next patch.

[Havok.cry]

We don't even know what to bug report because we have no idea how things are suppose to work.
According to one dev, we are supposed to bug report everything. (this would take me more time than my full time job)

[VorpalKnight]

I am eagerly waiting for a comment from them, I want to respect as well and either go full caster druid if it it gets nerfed back, or stay GWF and make a few changes if it doesn't and gets announced as wai. Hopefully they will address it by then and tell us if they intended for it to be that way or not.

[burningwind]

god they really make it hard for us player..

[Cordovan]

The druid's animal form has feats that are meant to compensate for the lack of Two Weapon Fighting support. The change which allows Two Weapon Fighting feats to apply to animal form attacks is not working as intended, and is under investigation. It's too early to say when or if it will change, but you can officially designate this as "not working as intended." Thanks!

[jakeelala]

The druid's animal form has feats that are meant to compensate for the lack of Two Weapon Fighting support. The change which allows Two Weapon Fighting feats to apply to animal form attacks is not working as intended, and is under investigation. It's too early to say when or if it will change, but you can officially designate this as "not working as intended." Thanks!

considering how incredibly terrible animal forms are for druid builds changing this back would be silly. Right now druid animal form melee buidls make up about .0001% of melee builds.

or is your obsessive love of monks too great and you need to nerf everything that doesn't involve someone using monk in their build? I guess people will just continue to use both.

[Failedlegend]

The druid's animal form has feats that are meant to compensate for the lack of Two Weapon Fighting support. The change which allows Two Weapon Fighting feats to apply to animal form attacks is not working as intended, and is under investigation. It's too early to say when or if it will change, but you can officially designate this as "not working as intended." Thanks!

Any chance we can lose the pointless requirement of 9 Druid levels for Nat fighting. It just make it a PITA to make any non-single classed druid that uses wildshape

[Havok.cry]

Any chance we can lose the pointless requirement of 9 Druid levels for Nat fighting. It just make it a PITA to make any non-single classed druid that uses wildshape
They should have, instead of making one feat that stacks three times, made three feats with the same level requirements as the TWF/THF feat chains. This way progression would be the same.

[Missing_Minds]

The druid's animal form has feats that are meant to compensate for the lack of Two Weapon Fighting support. The change which allows Two Weapon Fighting feats to apply to animal form attacks is not working as intended, and is under investigation. It's too early to say when or if it will change, but you can officially designate this as "not working as intended." Thanks!

Feats... you mean what the animal form grants?
Or actual feats as the only FEATS are the forms.

[Havok.cry]

Feats... you mean what the animal form grants?
Or actual feats as the only FEATS are the forms.
I believe he was referring to the feat called Natural Fighting. A passive feat that requires druid 9, gives +6% doublestrike chance animal form attacks, and stacks up to 3 times.

[Missing_Minds]

I believe he was referring to the feat called Natural Fighting. A passive feat that requires druid 9, gives +6% doublestrike chance animal form attacks, and stacks up to 3 times.

If that is what he's refering to, that is so laughable due to the rate of attack of bear/direbear form as that does not have any appreciable amped up damage to help account for the slow attack rate.

Then again... finally something with worse dps than ranged.

I'm half expecting him to come back with "oh, I was refering to the form spells." SPELLS are not FEATS, And those really should be SLA (that cost zero sp) that are granted with the form at the appropriate levels.

[Charononus]

If that is what he's refering to, that is so laughable due to the rate of attack of bear/direbear form as that does not have any appreciable amped up damage to help account for the slow attack rate.


I've heard they upped bear animations for the capstone, which still sucks as a pure build loses so much compared to even a 2 monk splash that there is no reason to stay pure and even with the new capstone it won't make up enough for staying pure.

[SerPounce]

The druid's animal form has feats that are meant to compensate for the lack of Two Weapon Fighting support. The change which allows Two Weapon Fighting feats to apply to animal form attacks is not working as intended, and is under investigation. It's too early to say when or if it will change, but you can officially designate this as "not working as intended." Thanks!

Thank you for taking the time to respond to this, it's good to know it's official status.

That said I am disappointed. Natural fighting feats are far to small a bonus, to far to small a baseline to make natural fighting a viable option. Allowing 2wf feats to work in animal form finally makes them fun and viable.

[Tilomere]

The druid's animal form has feats that are meant to compensate for the lack of Two Weapon Fighting support. The change which allows Two Weapon Fighting feats to apply to animal form attacks is not working as intended, and is under investigation. It's too early to say when or if it will change, but you can officially designate this as "not working as intended." Thanks!

Well good to know!

I'm not sure how NF feats alone compensates for 100% offhand TWF with kensai centered mountain stance fighter/monk/X using Axe of Adaxus in LD with 18x4 19-20x8 base crit profiles though...

Wolves used to be able to supplement their melee damage with ice breaths, reaving roar, decent spells, and decent healing (hybrid nature), but that all went away in update 19. I used to run a wonderful ice-cleave-reaving AoE build.

[PurpleTimb]

Thanks for giving an official ruling on this. I guess animal druids will have to keep waiting for an actual melee buff.

Please do something to make bear form viable. Wolf in its current state is not optimal, but it at least is viable and gives enough DPS to be a reasonable alternative to a martial class when you consider the healing and buffs druid provides. Bear form just isn't viable.

To help bears, consider granting one/some/all of:
More PRR.
Bear attacks treated as THF.
Glancing blows.
Bear attacks that give knockdown/knockback chance.
Bear attacks that give stun chance.
More guard effects.
More double-strike.

As it stands now, bear form is just terrible for anything other than using the /dance command.

[unbongwah]

Any chance we can lose the pointless requirement of 9 Druid levels for Nat fighting. It just make it a PITA to make any non-single classed druid that uses wildshape
Considering you need druid 8 for winter wolf - which, let's face it, is the only form worth building towards - I don't consider an extra druid level a big deal. That said, I certainly won't object to, say, monk 12/druid 8 becoming a viable alternative. :)

What I really want to see is the animal-form abilities become SLAs, for all the reasons why casters want SLAs (i.e., freely meta'ed, work in anti-magic, etc.). And while we're at it, how about some more elemental-specific abilities?

Wolves used to be able to supplement their melee damage with ice breaths, reaving roar, decent spells, and decent healing (hybrid nature), but that all went away in update 19. I used to run a wonderful ice-cleave-reaving AoE build.
Apart from the Reaving Roar nerf, why does this no longer work in U19?

[Charononus]

Apart from the Reaving Roar nerf, why does this no longer work in U19?

No way to get spwr except for spending in a tree that will have nothing else for you in it. For devotion for example it's easier to get devotion from a multiclass and get abilities that are useful to you with those ap at the same time.

[unbongwah]

Even on a STR-based wolf build, I'd probably still want to spend at least 15 APs in Season's Herald: 1st 3 core enhs, Beguile, Produce Flame + Creeping Cold SLAs (no save on either), Wax & Wane x3. That said, it sucks that NW provides zero Spellpower; I know it's meant to be the "melee DPS" (ha!) tree, but c'mon, it oughta be worth, say, 0.5 Spellpower per AP.

[Charononus]

Even on a STR-based wolf build, I'd probably still want to spend at least 15 APs in Season's Herald: 1st 3 core enhs, Beguile, Produce Flame + Creeping Cold SLAs (no save on either), Wax & Wane x3. That said, it sucks that NW provides zero Spellpower; I know it's meant to be the "melee DPS" (ha!) tree, but c'mon, it oughta be worth, say, 0.5 Spellpower per AP.

Beguile is a maybe imo since it doesn't work on red names now. Produce flame though will probably do less dps than meleeing for that time frame since a melee build isn't going to have the spwr or meta's boosting it's damage. Same with creeping cold but now you've shut off an arcane in the party from being able to use niac's biting cold for damage.

[Havok.cry]

Even on a STR-based wolf build, I'd probably still want to spend at least 15 APs in Season's Herald: 1st 3 core enhs, Beguile, Produce Flame + Creeping Cold SLAs (no save on either), Wax & Wane x3. That said, it sucks that NW provides zero Spellpower; I know it's meant to be the "melee DPS" (ha!) tree, but c'mon, it oughta be worth, say, 0.5 Spellpower per AP.
I find it worthwhile to get all the way to spring's resurgence in seasons herald, at least for the early levels... not sure about later, but at 9 now and it is all the heals I need soloing elites. Have done every quest I can get BB on and it has kept me up (and my wolf). I don't even prep cure or vigor spells unless I am joining a party looking for a healer.

[Havok.cry]

Beguile is a maybe imo since it doesn't work on red names now. Produce flame though will probably do less dps than meleeing for that time frame since a melee build isn't going to have the spwr or meta's boosting it's damage. Same with creeping cold but now you've shut off an arcane in the party from being able to use niac's biting cold for damage.
The creeping cold sla can be used on trash and allows you to then forget they exist because they will die in a moment. It does this for 4 sp. You have better things to do to a boss, and you can let the arcanes have their fun.

[Charononus]

The creeping cold sla can be used on trash and allows you to then forget they exist because they will die in a moment. It does this for 4 sp. You have better things to do to a boss, and you can let the arcanes have their fun.

Deals on-going cold damage to the target every 2 seconds for 12 seconds. The damage starts small, and grows larger as the spell continues. Each phase lasts 4 seconds. First phase: 1d4 damage +2 per 3 caster levels (max +12 at caster level 18). Second phase: 2d4 damage +4 per 3 caster levels (max +24 at caster level 18). Third Phase: 3d4 damage +6 per 3 caster levels (max +36 at caster level 18).

so assuming pure and that 15 pts for 15 spwr

first phase
4+12=16*1.15=18.4 so a total damage of 36 damage first phase
8+24=32*1.15=36.8 so say 37 for a total of 74 damage for the second phase
12+36=48*1.15=55.2 so a total damage of 110 for the second phase

That 4 sp got you 220 dmg. When mobs have 7k + hp they tell you that that tickles. My undergeared wolf build that is very weak still is getting 60-70 dmg on a non crit and about 1 hit per sec with 24% doublestrike at the moment. Assuming no double strikes and an average of 65 per hit I'd be doing 780. Yeah it only takes a second or two to cast it but it doesn't hit hard enough to really be worth it imo.

[Havok.cry]

Deals on-going cold damage to the target every 2 seconds for 12 seconds. The damage starts small, and grows larger as the spell continues. Each phase lasts 4 seconds. First phase: 1d4 damage +2 per 3 caster levels (max +12 at caster level 18). Second phase: 2d4 damage +4 per 3 caster levels (max +24 at caster level 18). Third Phase: 3d4 damage +6 per 3 caster levels (max +36 at caster level 18).

so assuming pure and that 15 pts for 15 spwr

first phase
4+12=16*1.15=18.4 so a total damage of 36 damage first phase
8+24=32*1.15=36.8 so say 37 for a total of 74 damage for the second phase
12+36=48*1.15=55.2 so a total damage of 110 for the second phase

That 4 sp got you 220 dmg. When mobs have 7k + hp they tell you that that tickles. My undergeared wolf build that is very weak still is getting 60-70 dmg on a non crit and about 1 hit per sec with 24% doublestrike at the moment. Assuming no double strikes and an average of 65 per hit I'd be doing 780. Yeah it only takes a second or two to cast it but it doesn't hit hard enough to really be worth it imo.

If you are trying to have a level 2 spell sla be relevant in EE content, then I have no advice for you at all. It is, however, a better use of sp than putting niacs/eladars on the same trash. My point was against some targets it is not a waste, and it shouldn't interfere with arcanes then, because any arcane who is trying their dots on trash, at full meta'd cost, is out of their mind. Also your math is not accounting for spellpower items (easy to slot in a augment gem), nor metamagics, which even wolves should take or they are deliberately gimping themselves (my opinion, but one I am fairly certain numbers back up).

[Missing_Minds]

I've heard they upped bear animations for the capstone, which still sucks as a pure build loses so much compared to even a 2 monk splash that there is no reason to stay pure and even with the new capstone it won't make up enough for staying pure.

I've heard that also. I'll be at work for the next several days (as it were)

So my guess is that it wont' stack with haste just like wolf form doesn't stack with striding/speed.

Aka utterly pointless as it offers players NOTHING.

[Charononus]

If you are trying to have a level 2 spell sla be relevant in EE content, then I have no advice for you at all. It is, however, a better use of sp than putting niacs/eladars on the same trash. My point was against some targets it is not a waste, and it shouldn't interfere with arcanes then, because any arcane who is trying their dots on trash, at full meta'd cost, is out of their mind. Also your math is not accounting for spellpower items (easy to slot in a augment gem), nor metamagics, which even wolves should take or they are deliberately gimping themselves (my opinion, but one I am fairly certain numbers back up).

most wraps (yes all animal form druids should be using wraps for die step reasons) only have 1 red slot if they have any and in that one slot you should have devotion to help heal yourself imo.

In any case when theory building unless you are planing and stating it's for a 1-20 life planing for the top level of play is probably best.

[Havok.cry]

most wraps (yes all animal form druids should be using wraps for die step reasons) only have 1 red slot if they have any and in that one slot you should have devotion to help heal yourself imo.

In any case when theory building unless you are planing and stating it's for a 1-20 life planing for the top level of play is probably best. There are other places you can get devotion. I understand the need to plan for the end. My comment about using creeping cold as a fire and forget thing to kill a mob by itself was not really for that, and I didn't really think about that before I posted it. Creeping cold is good though. It is absolutely worth the 15 AP spent in tree to get, even on a melee build. This is of course my opinion, and my definition of a melee druid build includes maximize and empower. If yours does not, then it may be worth considerably less.

[Charononus]

There are other places you can get devotion. I understand the need to plan for the end. My comment about using creeping cold as a fire and forget thing to kill a mob by itself was not really for that, and I didn't really think about that before I posted it. Creeping cold is good though. It is absolutely worth the 15 AP spent in tree to get, even on a melee build. This is of course my opinion, and my definition of a melee druid build includes maximize and empower. If yours does not, then it may be worth considerably less.

quicken and empower healing only.

[Diyon]

Ok, for one thing look at the recent changes today. My wolf druid just got from the changes: 3 AC, 10 PRR, 65 positive spell power, +6 Base damage, +1 STR, +1 DEX, +1 CON, +2 Bluff, +2 intimidate.

That aside, my melee wolf druid (pure build) is easily my best character right now and they have all lvl ups in WIS. I can solo some epic elites with it, epic hard is generally a cake walk. Me and guildy went and duo'd the Druid's Deep chain on EE today. I have 80+ AC, 80 PRR, 8d6+13 sneak attack, and 50% doublestrike without using doublestrike boost or celerity. I gather up large groups of monsters and systematically destroy them. Since this update, I have 297 positive spell power not including maximize (a little more if summer kicks in). This is easily the hardest of my characters to kill.

The only reason I can think of as to why all of you are thinking melee animal form is junk is that you are either doing it wrong, or have been watching others do it wrong.

(btw someone said use wraps because of the die step. This is not true, you get that regardless of weapon in animal form. Pretty much anything that affects unarmed affects animal form attacks, from reinforced fists, using stunning fist, and tod burst rings. I use a holy burst ring. So use kamas or shortswords and use the offhand slot for more stats like seeker or stunning or whatever. **Another edit** unless you are not a monk, in which case use a shield.)

[Faeeee]

(btw someone said use wraps because of the die step. This is not true, you get that regardless of weapon in animal form.
I highly doubt it. Yes stunning fist and tod rings works in animal form even when you're not using wraps, but damage dice increase should only work with wraps. My druid has constantly and very noticeably higher base damage using wraps than using kamas, even though I do swap them around depending on situations.

[GeoffWatson]

The druid's animal form has feats that are meant to compensate for the lack of Two Weapon Fighting support. The change which allows Two Weapon Fighting feats to apply to animal form attacks is not working as intended, and is under investigation. It's too early to say when or if it will change, but you can officially designate this as "not working as intended." Thanks!

Pity. They make melee druids decent. The Natural Fighting feat is terrible.

Geoff.

[IBCrabin]

With TWF working in animal form while holding a shield, A Druid animal form with perfect twf is capable of hitting up to 4 times (100% main hand + 80% off hand + 50% double strike with shield and twist +10% off hand double strike) with 1 attack regularly.

Proposed change is to fixed twf and change natural fighting feats

20-25% incremental at

20% 6 druid Level (Natural fighting)
20% 9 Druid Level (Improved Natural fighting)
25% 12 druid Level (Greater Natural fighting)

Add a 15% double strike for epic destiny feat. pre req (Greater Natural fighting)
Total of 80% double strike at level 26.

Change celerity to 2% double strike stacking 5 times on vorpal and lose 1 stack every 10 second.
For a possible 90% double strike from passive enhancement and feats.

This will make for a more unique druid class and create flexibility for other class splashes.

To encourage deeper druid level build, add
given feat at 15 Druid Level
bear form - 15% attack speed (stacking) +2 damage
wolf form - 10 prr +1 damage

[Tilomere]

With TWF working in animal form while holding a shield, A Druid animal form with perfect twf is capable of hitting up to 4 times (100% main hand + 80% off hand + 50% double strike with shield and twist +10% off hand double strike) with 1 attack regularly.



Technically the shield is equipped but you are not holding it. You are fighting unarmed. This is consistent with weapons, and also consistent that even with the shield equipped, you cannot block with it.

Because it is equipped, it will uncenter you, and if it is metal it will break the druidic oath. Because you are not holding it you are ineligible for higher tier stalwart defense bonuses, but now are eligible for TWF.

[Violith]

With TWF working in animal form while holding a shield, A Druid animal form with perfect twf is capable of hitting up to 4 times (100% main hand + 80% off hand + 50% double strike with shield and twist +10% off hand double strike) with 1 attack regularly.


it was commented on recently that TWF working in animal form was NOT WAI, and to be expected it to be either fixed back to how it was, or made WAI depending on developer decisions. but for the moment it should be considered to not be WAI

[IBCrabin]

I was stating the issue with the current U19 with twf feats and proposed a solution to make druid animal more competitive with other melee builds.

[Diyon]

I highly doubt it. Yes stunning fist and tod rings works in animal form even when you're not using wraps, but damage dice increase should only work with wraps. My druid has constantly and very noticeably higher base damage using wraps than using kamas, even though I do swap them around depending on situations.

I'll concede that that may be the case but I was talking to someone earlier who said it most definitely worked. In anycase I'd like to see some testing down that definitively shows it does or doesn't with numbers.

[SerPounce]

I'll concede that that may be the case but I was talking to someone earlier who said it most definitely worked. In anycase I'd like to see some testing down that definitively shows it does or doesn't with numbers.

Testing many months back showed that weapon-based +w and monk die steps from levels only works from wraps, but other sources of +w (reinforced fists, destiny abilities, etc) worked with all weapons. It wasn't at super through 1000 iteration type test, but it was decent, and reasonable conclusive iirc. You might be able to find the thread with some searching, I don't recall the title.

Things could have changed of course, and a more complete test would be great if you felt so inclined ;)

[Diyon]

Testing many months back showed that weapon-based +w and monk die steps from levels only works from wraps, but other sources of +w (reinforced fists, destiny abilities, etc) worked with all weapons. It wasn't at super through 1000 iteration type test, but it was decent, and reasonable conclusive iirc. You might be able to find the thread with some searching, I don't recall the title.

Things could have changed of course, and a more complete test would be great if you felt so inclined ;)

Ah ok. Well reinforced fists working is good news. You don't really need a 1000 iteration type test. You just need to set up the character and gear so that the amount of damage you deal is predictable and clear (get rid as many extra damage procs as possible). So you know what the minimum and maximum damage is with it working and not working and see which range you fall into. Also good to double check with a control without the ability in question just to make sure your calculation of the min and max are correct.

In any case, stuff changes, it might be a good idea to revisit this.

[Panzermeyer]

The druid's animal form has feats that are meant to compensate for the lack of Two Weapon Fighting support. The change which allows Two Weapon Fighting feats to apply to animal form attacks is not working as intended, and is under investigation. It's too early to say when or if it will change, but you can officially designate this as "not working as intended." Thanks!

I have not played a druid yet.

But honestly this does seem silly.

Monks get bonus's for TWF feats using their hands.

But druids are not suppose to get bonus using the TWF for using their hands, even if their hands are claws?

That really does not make sense.

It seems you should just leave it in and change it to WAI.

[Charononus]

It seems you should just leave it in and change it to WAI.

I'd add to this announce it when you change it to wai, some of us aren't altering builds to take advantage of it since you'll probably fix it soon, but since it shouldn't be fixed like the poster I quoted said please don't and announce that you've changed your mind to it being wai.

[Diyon]

I have not played a druid yet.

But honestly this does seem silly.

Monks get bonus's for TWF feats using their hands.

But druids are not suppose to get bonus using the TWF for using their hands, even if their hands are claws?

That really does not make sense.

It seems you should just leave it in and change it to WAI.

Honestly, it does make sense if you go by pnp paper standards (you can do it in PnP, can also do it with staffs). HOWEVER, all that stuff melds into your form and becomes inactive, so if we get this, we get no equipment unless it is specifically designed, which just won't work for DDO. The only prestige that would do something like this is daggerspell shaper. Which I actually wouldn't mind seeing for a PrE.

I know pretty much everyone here seems to disagree, but this should NOT be made WAI. It would be overpowered. The only way this might be a good idea as WAI is if the TWF is made exclusive from the natural attack line, which would really only make it better significantly for the monk multiclasses that can't make use of the awesome use of a shield in form, which by the posts in this thread may make everyone happy anyways. But I'm still of the opinion it shouldn't be WAI.

[SerPounce]

Honestly, it does make sense if you go by pnp paper standards (you can do it in PnP, can also do it with staffs). HOWEVER, all that stuff melds into your form and becomes inactive, so if we get this, we get no equipment unless it is specifically designed, which just won't work for DDO. The only prestige that would do something like this is daggerspell shaper. Which I actually wouldn't mind seeing for a PrE.

I know pretty much everyone here seems to disagree, but this should NOT be made WAI. It would be overpowered. The only way this might be a good idea as WAI is if the TWF is made exclusive from the natural attack line, which would really only make it better significantly for the monk multiclasses that can't make use of the awesome use of a shield in form, which by the posts in this thread may make everyone happy anyways. But I'm still of the opinion it shouldn't be WAI.

I notice you don't actually play a druid.

[Emerge2012]

I don't understand where the pro-power for druid players are coming from here. Druid melee isn't weak without the 2wf feats working. Is it as strong as a focused fighter/barb? No. Can a fighter/barb take 1 second of their time to drop a 1 click full health heal on themselves? No. That's the way this game works and everyone here knows the definition of balance.

Saw the same thing a while back when people were talking about the supposed paladin dps nerf after the enhancement change. Everyone was up in arms because paladins STILL couldn't do as much dps as a fighter or barb. Yet the fighters and barbs STILL had **** saves and no self healing.

Gotta take a step back and really think about what's being asked for here. If druid forms had melee ability comparable to a fighter would it be balanced? If Kensai got +50 spell points and ascending Cure Wound spells added to it's core abilities would it be balanced?

[unbongwah]

I agree that stacking TWF + Natural Fighting + 30% base atk speed - on top of everything else a wolf druid can do - is / would be OP. But shifter druids definitely needed a DPS buff. The biggest mistake Turbine made is the lack of +[W] modifiers for druids, since weapon mods don't carry over. A simple solution would be to add +0.5[W] for each Natural Fighting feat (in addition to the doublestrike bonuses), with maybe another +0.5 or 1[W] from the capstone. This would help them keep up with other melees and scale with level to keep pace with the Paragon weapons.

[SerPounce]

I don't understand where the pro-power for druid players are coming from here. Druid melee isn't weak without the 2wf feats working. Is it as strong as a focused fighter/barb? No. Can a fighter/barb take 1 second of their time to drop a 1 click full health heal on themselves? No. That's the way this game works and everyone here knows the definition of balance.

Saw the same thing a while back when people were talking about the supposed paladin dps nerf after the enhancement change. Everyone was up in arms because paladins STILL couldn't do as much dps as a fighter or barb. Yet the fighters and barbs STILL had **** saves and no self healing.

Gotta take a step back and really think about what's being asked for here. If druid forms had melee ability comparable to a fighter would it be balanced? If Kensai got +50 spell points and ascending Cure Wound spells added to it's core abilities would it be balanced?

Can you please quote the person that said that Druids should do as much DPS as a fighter or barb? Did you actually read what anyone said, or do you just enjoy the challenge of kicking the straw men of your imagination?

The problem isn't that druids don't do fighter DPS, the problem is that they loose dps by going into animal form instead of swinging a cleaver/esos/eag/skybreaker.

[SerPounce]

I agree that stacking TWF + Natural Fighting + 30% base atk speed - on top of everything else a wolf druid can do - is / would be OP. But shifter druids definitely needed a DPS buff. The biggest mistake Turbine made is the lack of +[W] modifiers for druids, since weapon mods don't carry over. A simple solution would be to add +0.5[W] for each Natural Fighting feat (in addition to the doublestrike bonuses), with maybe another +0.5 or 1[W] from the capstone. This would help them keep up with other melees and scale with level to keep pace with the Paragon weapons.

Agreed that the natural fighting feats would need to go. The "+30% base attack speed" thing is overstated. Wolves don't get 30% more attacks than other toons most of the time. Their first two attacks in the sequence are slow, and these animations are used a lot more than the back end ones. And other toons get nice animations also: monks attack at +10%, 2hf toons that autocleave or twitch attack ~20% faster, etc. The basic wolf animation is pretty nice, but it's no where near 30% better than others.

Animals should just work like a monk where the main hand weapon transforms into wraps. On top of the weakness of the current system it's intuitive and byzantine. New players always struggle with it and gimp their toons in the process. That reason alone is enough to ditch it.

[Charononus]

Agreed that the natural fighting feats would need to go. The "+30% base attack speed" thing is overstated. Wolves don't get 30% more attacks than other toons most of the time. Their first two attacks in the sequence are slow, and these animations are used a lot more than the back end ones. And other toons get nice animations also: monks attack at +10%, 2hf toons that autocleave or twitch attack ~20% faster, etc. The basic wolf animation is pretty nice, but it's no where near 30% better than others.

Animals should just work like a monk where the main hand weapon transforms into wraps. On top of the weakness of the current system it's intuitive and byzantine. New players always struggle with it and gimp their toons in the process. That reason alone is enough to ditch it.

The 30% also doesn't stack with haste.

[SerPounce]

The 30% also doesn't stack with haste.

To what extent there is a 30% boost (see above) it does stack with haste. The 30% is just a faster animation, not an actual bonus. You definitely attack faster when hasted as a wolf...

I just logged on to double check this since you're usually so reliable, and haste definitely works.

[Charononus]

To what extent there is a 30% boost (see above) it does stack with haste. The 30% is just a faster animation, not an actual bonus. You definitely attack faster when hasted as a wolf...

I just logged on to double check this since you're usually so reliable, and haste definitely works.

my mistake, yeah I know what I was thinking of now, but you are right I had things confused. I'm blaming it on the cold medicine today, umm yeah....

[Emerge2012]

Can you please quote the person that said that Druids should do as much DPS as a fighter or barb? Did you actually read what anyone said, or do you just enjoy the challenge of kicking the straw men of your imagination?

The problem isn't that druids don't do fighter DPS, the problem is that they loose dps by going into animal form instead of swinging a cleaver/esos/eag/skybreaker.


Well good to know!

I'm not sure how NF feats alone compensates for 100% offhand TWF with kensai centered mountain stance fighter/monk/X using Axe of Adaxus in LD with 18x4 19-20x8 base crit profiles though...

Wolves used to be able to supplement their melee damage with ice breaths, reaving roar, decent spells, and decent healing (hybrid nature), but that all went away in update 19. I used to run a wonderful ice-cleave-reaving AoE build.


I was stating the issue with the current U19 with twf feats and proposed a solution to make druid animal more competitive with other melee builds.

Not to mention the few other posters who seem to think that 90% offhand attacks with 50% (sometimes 100) doubletrike using the equivalent of an improved epic khopesh on an already improved attack speed rate.

Get real.

*edit*

Oh and by the way...

If I could hit level 8 Druid and suddenly shift into the dps equivalent of cleaver/esos/eag/skybreaker then I'd be playing by myself. This game would be irrevocably broken.

Like I said before, think about what you're asking for.

[unbongwah]

The "+30% base attack speed" thing is overstated. Wolves don't get 30% more attacks than other toons most of the time. Their first two attacks in the sequence are slow, and these animations are used a lot more than the back end ones. And other toons get nice animations also: monks attack at +10%, 2hf toons that autocleave or twitch attack ~20% faster, etc. The basic wolf animation is pretty nice, but it's no where near 30% better than others.
In which case they should fix the animation / atk sequence so wolves actually attack 30% faster like they're supposed to. I'm sure they'll get right on that, along with all the other atk speed bonuses which aren't WAI - or at least don't match their descriptions.

"Hi, AA rangers just called from 2009, want to know when capstone will be WAI kthxbye"

:rolleyes:

The 30% also doesn't stack with haste.
You might be confusing it with wolf run speed, which is enhancement-based so it doesn't stack w/Haste, Striding, etc.

[Charononus]

You might be confusing it with wolf run speed, which is enhancement-based so it doesn't stack w/Haste, Striding, etc.

That is exactly what I did.

[SerPounce]

Not to mention the few other posters who seem to think that 90% offhand attacks with 50% (sometimes 100) doubletrike using the equivalent of an improved epic khopesh on an already improved attack speed rate.
Khopesh? you mean that gimp weapon nobody uses? And when did 1d10 become better than 3d8 anyway? Remember no +w for wolves.

Why shouldn't druids get the same off-hand strike that *every other class gets* not just "fighters and barb." Natural fighting and S&B doublestrike probably should go if wolves can 2wf, but it's not nearly as big a deal as you make out. Those stats include: 2wf x3, shield mastery x2, nat fighting x3 (along with a lot of other BS that no real build could fit to get to 50-100% doublestrike). You'll never fit all that in anyway. Oh, and by the way fighters and barbarians can self heal just fine in all content. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425517-EE-What-goes-up-Flawless-Solo

As far as the quotes go, the first guy is talking about the forms with a mind towards deep splashes that use wolf. Adding in the Kensai bonuses is unreasonable, but the basic point about 2wf vs. wolf is valid. The second guy just says "melee" which includes bards and clerics not just ftr/bbn. No one is saying a druid 20 should do the DPS of a ftr or bbn, just that you shouldn't be miles behind bards, clerics, favored souls, and artificers.



Oh and by the way...

If I could hit level 8 Druid and suddenly shift into the dps equivalent of cleaver/esos/eag/skybreaker then I'd be playing by myself. This game would be irrevocably broken.

Like I said before, think about what you're asking for.
What are you talking about? You want to compare at lvl 8, fine. Wolf still does less DPS than swinging a decent weapon as a druid out of wolf form. You don't even have natural fighting at lvl8. You do the DPS of a S&B cleric as a wolf, but with gimped spell cooldowns. And that is the absolute high point for wolf fighting vs. weapon fighting, It's all down hill from there.

[Emerge2012]

Khopesh? you mean that gimp weapon nobody uses? And when did 1d10 become better than 3d8 anyway? Remember no +w for wolves.

Why shouldn't druids get the same off-hand strike that *every other class gets* not just "fighters and barb." Natural fighting and S&B doublestrike probably should go if wolves can 2wf, but it's not nearly as big a deal as you make out. Those stats include: 2wf x3, shield mastery x2, nat fighting x3 (along with a lot of other BS that no real build could fit to get to 50-100% doublestrike). You'll never fit all that in anyway. Oh, and by the way fighters and barbarians can self heal just fine in all content. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425517-EE-What-goes-up-Flawless-Solo

As far as the quotes go, the first guy is talking about the forms with a mind towards deep splashes that use wolf. Adding in the Kensai bonuses is unreasonable, but the basic point about 2wf vs. wolf is valid. The second guy just says "melee" which includes bards and clerics not just ftr/bbn. No one is saying a druid 20 should do the DPS of a ftr or bbn, just that you shouldn't be miles behind bards, clerics, favored souls, and artificers.

What are you talking about? You want to compare at lvl 8, fine. Wolf still does less DPS than swinging a decent weapon as a druid out of wolf form. You don't even have natural fighting at lvl8. You do the DPS of a S&B cleric as a wolf, but with gimped spell cooldowns. And that is the absolute high point for wolf fighting vs. weapon fighting, It's all down hill from there.

Scroll healing is not one click, it's not the same, not even remotely the same. Done.

Plenty of people in this thread (yes I read it, did you?) recount how to get better than base damage on a wolf. Done.

Getting insanely high static doublestrike on a wolf is quite easy. Is it static 80-100% like some of the 2wf builds? No. Does getting static full str bonus on the 2nd attack make up for it. Yes.

Weapons properties do in fact merge into wolf form. Which means that you aren't limited to the junk khopeshes in the game. As I said before, you get an improved khopesh that uses the properties of the weapon of your choice.

The following quote is the one that I think you really need to read again. Druid melees aren't gimp at all and like most problems with most builds it usually comes down to the player.


Ok, for one thing look at the recent changes today. My wolf druid just got from the changes: 3 AC, 10 PRR, 65 positive spell power, +6 Base damage, +1 STR, +1 DEX, +1 CON, +2 Bluff, +2 intimidate.

That aside, my melee wolf druid (pure build) is easily my best character right now and they have all lvl ups in WIS. I can solo some epic elites with it, epic hard is generally a cake walk. Me and guildy went and duo'd the Druid's Deep chain on EE today. I have 80+ AC, 80 PRR, 8d6+13 sneak attack, and 50% doublestrike without using doublestrike boost or celerity. I gather up large groups of monsters and systematically destroy them. Since this update, I have 297 positive spell power not including maximize (a little more if summer kicks in). This is easily the hardest of my characters to kill.

The only reason I can think of as to why all of you are thinking melee animal form is junk is that you are either doing it wrong, or have been watching others do it wrong.

(btw someone said use wraps because of the die step. This is not true, you get that regardless of weapon in animal form. Pretty much anything that affects unarmed affects animal form attacks, from reinforced fists, using stunning fist, and tod burst rings. I use a holy burst ring. So use kamas or shortswords and use the offhand slot for more stats like seeker or stunning or whatever. **Another edit** unless you are not a monk, in which case use a shield.)

[Charononus]

Plenty of people in this thread (yes I read it, did you?) recount how to get better than base damage on a wolf. Done.


Getting that high of a base weapon mod requires a very large monk splash at which point your healing is not much better than a ranger or pally, and they will do more dps with a esos or cleaver.

[SerPounce]

Scroll healing is not one click, it's not the same, not even remotely the same. Done. How is it not "remotely" the same? It's healing. It works in EE. A bit less convenient, sure, but not a big deal. And if you're dying for one-click healing twist cocoon.


Plenty of people in this thread (yes I read it, did you?) recount how to get better than base damage on a wolf. Done.They are mostly wrong, as is the guy you quoted. You do not get +w from weapons.

Charon's build is fine, but that's a 9/9/2, it's not so much a druid as a monk that uses winter wolf. That's a build that really should be compared DPS wise to true melees. He's not dropping earthquakes or mass regen.


Getting insanely high static doublestrike on a wolf is quite easy. Is it static 80-100% like some of the 2wf builds? No. Does getting static full str bonus on the 2nd attack make up for it. Yes. No, it doesn't. You're just wrong, wolf is still way behind.


Weapons properties do in fact merge into wolf form. Which means that you aren't limited to the junk khopeshes in the game. As I said before, you get an improved khopesh that uses the properties of the weapon of your choice. crappy proc effects are only a minor part of the problem with peshes. The real "problem" is that they're competing against weapons with even better crit ranges like balazarde, esos, sireth, mornh (with pulverizor), etc.


The following quote is the one that I think you really need to read again. Druid melees aren't gimp at all and like most problems with most builds it usually comes down to the player.
That guy was wrong, as I'm sure you knew as you read the thread. And "I do fine in EE with my guild group" means jack, Albus the hireling does fine in EE with my guild groups. As are out of context numbers (80 PRR? where's that coming from? same with 50% static doublestrike, what are you giving up for that?). Wolf DPS is way behind 2wf and 2hf, and requires more feats (shield feats +nat fighting). Throw around out-of-context numbers all you want, it's still unreasonable that you take a melee nerf by using a form that nerfs your spellcasting.

[Emerge2012]

How is it not "remotely" the same? It's healing. It works in EE. A bit less convenient, sure, but not a big deal. And if you're dying for one-click healing twist cocoon.

They are mostly wrong, as is the guy you quoted. You do not get +w from weapons.

Charon's build is fine, but that's a 9/9/2, it's not so much a druid as a monk that uses winter wolf. That's a build that really should be compared DPS wise to true melees. He's not dropping earthquakes or mass regen.

No, it doesn't. You're just wrong, wolf is still way behind.

crappy proc effects are only a minor part of the problem with peshes. The real "problem" is that they're competing against weapons with even better crit ranges like balazarde, esos, sireth, mornh (with pulverizor), etc.


That guy was wrong, as I'm sure you knew as you read the thread. And "I do fine in EE with my guild group" means jack, Albus the hireling does fine in EE with my guild groups. As are out of context numbers (80 PRR? where's that coming from? same with 50% static doublestrike, what are you giving up for that?). Wolf DPS is way behind 2wf and 2hf, and requires more feats (shield feats +nat fighting). Throw around out-of-context numbers all you want, it's still unreasonable that you take a melee nerf by using a form that nerfs your spellcasting.

I'm just gonna make 3 simple points, from least important to most.

1 - 4 monk levels and a + die step item equates to an extra 1[w] on a 1d10 base. Add in weapon effects of your choice and there's no comparison to any khopesh in the game other than range/mod. By the way range/mod are a pretty big deal and yet you still keep talking about casting ability as a consequence to dps. You think you should get full heals without a gear swap and top tier dps? Maybe your wolf should equal a eSoS Kensai that can cast full fledged earthquakes and raid heal. Maybe you're sleeping.

2 - Scroll healing is not remotely the same as one click full heals because it's not one click and it's not full. This alone should be /thread for you.

3 - 80 prr and 50% doublestrike are attainable. Just because you don't know how to build for them doesn't mean it's not possible.

[Tilomere]

I know for a fact that the highest sustained TWF+NF group dps druids tops out around 1100 dps. I did the math here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425933-Natural-Evolution-a-simplified-wolf-dps-build?p=5106678#post5106678

In addition, I made my now lvl 26 1 ranger 2 monk 17 druid with EE knuckles a TWF + NF druid, so I know for a fact that I do less than 1k dps in reality, probably closer to 700, as my gear isn't perfect yet. My druid has 5.5d10.

In contrast, my 400 spell power lvl 27 sorc. with 32% crit casts energy burst as follows:

15+1d15 x lvl base = 22.5x33 = 742.5 base (27 sorc. lvls + 6 caster lvl).
400 spell power = 3712.5
32% crit = 4900/hit

~5 mobs/group = 24,502 damage, or 1.1k dps for pushing 1 button, once every twenty-ish seconds.

Bugged, using a min/maxed build and optimal gear, a perfectly synergized TWF + NF + ED druid does do as much total damage in 20 seconds that my Sorc does in 2 pushing one button. In reality, a well geared TWF + NF + ED druid is out-dpsed by only using energy burst twist on any decently geared caster.

Bugged or not, animal druids are not even close to good dps, or even druid caster form dps. One is always better served using energy burst in a spell power setup, unless you find animal form fun.

We are just having fun with TWF since animal form druids at high levels are merely bad dps, which is viable.

[SerPounce]

I'm just gonna make 3 simple points, from least important to most.

1 - 4 monk levels and a + die step item equates to an extra 1[w] on a 1d10 base. Add in weapon effects of your choice and there's no comparison to any khopesh in the game other than range/mod. By the way range/mod are a pretty big deal and yet you still keep talking about casting ability as a consequence to dps. You think you should get full heals without a gear swap and top tier dps? Maybe your wolf should equal a eSoS Kensai that can cast full fledged earthquakes and raid heal. Maybe you're sleeping.

2 - Scroll healing is not remotely the same as one click full heals because it's not one click and it's not full. This alone should be /thread for you.

3 - 80 prr and 50% doublestrike are attainable. Just because you don't know how to build for them doesn't mean it's not possible.

1. As as been mentioned a dozen times to your deaf ears *weapon die steps do not work in animal form with weapons other than wraps* so you can't get die step and a *weapon of your choice.* And that goes no mater how many times you repeat yourself.

And again, *Khopeshes*? Who cares, peshes suck. The right comparison is to actual good weapons that people use.

2. Scroll healing very much can be a full heal.

3. There are all kinds of things that are attainable, far fewer that are attainable without gimping another aspect of the toon. Nat fighting gives 18% double strike for three feats, 2wf gives 80%. That's the correct comparison, not 3 2wf feats vs. 5 feats, a bunch of gear slots, multiple twists, and your main destiny.

[SerPounce]

Heh, I just read some of that dude's posts.

Well egg on my face, I fed the troll.

It's just frustrating when people intentionally muddy the waters of feedback threads with pure misinformation.

[SerPounce]

I guess I'm as bad at building druids as Cetus is at building fighters....

I think I can live with myself.

[Charononus]

I guess I'm as bad at building druids as Cetus is at building fighters....

I think I can live with myself.

You're not in tears? Ok I'm not either. =P

[Emerge2012]

These forums are awful outside of a couple posters. No wonder everyone cringes when I mention something about this place in game.

[Diyon]

I notice you don't actually play a druid.

That signature is waaaaay out of date. I play have like 3+ druids. That fvs in my sig is one now and the one I described.


That guy was wrong, as I'm sure you knew as you read the thread. And "I do fine in EE with my guild group" means jack, Albus the hireling does fine in EE with my guild groups. As are out of context numbers (80 PRR? where's that coming from? same with 50% static doublestrike, what are you giving up for that?). Wolf DPS is way behind 2wf and 2hf, and requires more feats (shield feats +nat fighting). Throw around out-of-context numbers all you want, it's still unreasonable that you take a melee nerf by using a form that nerfs your spellcasting.

Ok, for one, I said with a guildy, as in singular and I was pulling a lot of the weight. Two, I believe I mentioned be able to solo some EEs.

You want some more numbers and context? Challenge accepted.

20 druid/7 epic lvls 1 past life FvS
Human

Starting stats

STR 16
DEX 12
CON 16
INT 8
WIS 16
CHA 8

All level ups in WIS

Current stats in primal avatar self buffed (no rage, no ship buffs etc)

STR 36
DEX 22
CON 32
INT 8
WIS 38
CHA 8

Feats:

Natural Fighting x3
Shield Mastery
Imp. Shield Mastery
Toughness
IC:B
Quicken
Maximize
Precision
Dodge (for the knockdown immunity enhancement)

742 HP (still need to reslot insightful con in, as well as vitality. Plans are in motion for that)
AC 73 (still need to reslot deflection bonus in, plans)
81 PRR (Medium armor, large shield) You can split this apart yourself. I have +14 PRR augment. The rest can be derived from what I listed

Fate slots:
Legendary shield mastery
Hail of blows
Healing power (Plans to be a tier three twist, need 3 more fate points)

Spell Power (without season, I think seems to be stuck in summer I subtracted appropriately. without meta):

Acid: 155
Cold: 65
Electric: 65
Fire: 60
Force: 65
Light: 60
Negative: 100
Positive: 320
Repair: 62
Sonic: 56

Saves:

Fort- 39
Ref- 29
Will- 42

Doublestrike static- 50% (18% natural fighting, 8% shield masteries, 7% legendary shield mastery, 6% on my alchemical shield, 3% black dragon set, 3% hail of blows, 5% Perfect TWF)

Have a deadly IX item on, magic fang gives a +6 enhancement bonus (which since it goes to my shield to, also to my AC), ram's might another +2.

If you want more gear information I can provide it, if you're on Khyber, I can demonstrate.

Edit: **** forgot a primal toggle, +2 to STR/DEX/CON when its active (most of the time basically).

[Tilomere]

Everyone has different definitions of viable. For some it is soloing EE Cabal for One against groups of 3-5 6k hp orcs and bosses and mobs that can be evaded by jumping on things.

For others, it is doing EE Breaking the Ranks against four sets of two overlapping waves of twenty 18k hp mobs each while fighting a 220k hp boss, while being stuck in the middle of plain ground surrounded by traps, while being bombarded from the air by a dragon.


Dealing with four sets of 900k hp worth of mobs back to back on plain ground while surrounded by traps and being bombarded by a dragon requires a whole new level of viable than dealing with a group of five 6k health orcs in Cabal for One.

It is when you go from dealing with 30k hp worth of elite mobs at a time to 1M that wolf single target damage really starts to fade, TWF bug or no. But up until that point it is a blast. My 26 druid caps out at soloing EE high road content, so even level EE's.

[SerPounce]

snip

OK, so you've got DCs in, what, the mid forties? Maybe lower....

Combined with low spell power, you're just heals and DPS. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's the "context." You're like a melee FVS swinging a cleaver/esos, except you don't do as much damage, your heals are weaker, and you have 2/3 the spell points.

PRR:
18 (med armor) +10 (Shield mastery) + (15 legendary SM) +14 (Augment) = 57
what am I missing?

It's a good build, but it really proves the point. You're giving up a lot for in order to do decent melee.

[Diyon]

OK, so you've got DCs in, what, the mid forties? Maybe lower....

Combined with low spell power, you're just heals and DPS. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's the "context." You're like a melee FVS swinging a cleaver/esos, except you don't do as much damage, your heals are weaker, and you have 2/3 the spell points.

PRR:
18 (med armor) +10 (Shield mastery) + (15 legendary SM) +14 (Augment) = 57
what am I missing?

It's a good build, but it really proves the point. You're giving up a lot for in order to do decent melee.

My healing doesn't need to be stronger. If I decide to it more than perfectly capable of healing groups/raids without too much effort. I typically wield a sacrificial dagger (con poison) so stuff if getting neg lvled constantly. I've been able to knock stuff down in EE quests. Just not super CC it. Anything that can be neg lvl'd is toast.

Also, I think people are neglecting something about druid's and +W. I'm almost always hitting an attack spell that adds a whole bunch of +W. Alpha strike is an +10W aoe. Which brings me to also doing a bunch of aoe damage. I'll finish the breaking the PRR when I get back.

[Charononus]

My healing doesn't need to be stronger. If I decide to it more than perfectly capable of healing groups/raids without too much effort. I typically wield a sacrificial dagger (con poison) so stuff if getting neg lvled constantly. I've been able to knock stuff down in EE quests. Just not super CC it. Anything that can be neg lvl'd is toast.

Also, I think people are neglecting something about druid's and +W. I'm almost always hitting an attack spell that adds a whole bunch of +W. Alpha strike is an +10W aoe. Which brings me to also doing a bunch of aoe damage. I'll finish the breaking the PRR when I get back.

Is that working now? Last time I tried to test alpha strike it was bugged and wouldn't let me take it.

[Diyon]

Is that working now? Last time I tried to test alpha strike it was bugged and wouldn't let me take it.

Ya that was in the first round of things they fixed. It's pretty sweet.



Now the PRR.

Medium Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to 2/3 of your Base Attack Bonus (round up) and add +4.

Have BaB 19 atm, so: 16.67

Shield Mastery: 10

Legendary Shield Mastery: 15

Augment: 14

Nature's Warrior Capstone: 10

Annnnnnd there seems to be a mysterious extra 15 in there. No clue where its coming from, but I assure you its there. I can take screen shots if really need the confirmation. (Took off armor and shield)

[elyssaria]

Ya that was in the first round of things they fixed. It's pretty sweet.



Now the PRR.

Medium Armor gives you Physical Resistance Rating equal to 2/3 of your Base Attack Bonus (round up) and add +4.

Have BaB 19 atm, so: 16.67

Shield Mastery: 10

Legendary Shield Mastery: 15

Augment: 14

Nature's Warrior Capstone: 10

Annnnnnd there seems to be a mysterious extra 15 in there. No clue where its coming from, but I assure you its there. I can take screen shots if really need the confirmation. (Took off armor and shield)

Divon - Would you mind posting or PM me your complete build with gear... You peaked my interest and I might give it a try with a variant of your build. So a more precise build would be very very helpful!

Thanks in advance!

/K

[Diyon]

Divon - Would you mind posting or PM me your complete build with gear... You peaked my interest and I might give it a try with a variant of your build. So a more precise build would be very very helpful!

Thanks in advance!

/K

Ya I can do that. Just not right this second. Some pieces of my gear haven't been optimized yet as I said earlier, but that's in the works (gear was pretty much set up preU19, but I still have a number of augment slots empty), and it still holds in own in pretty much any difficulty. Most deaths are either stupid error on my part (wasn't watching my hp because it was doing fine the whole time, bad timing decision on when to heal) or nasty CC like a stun in a bad situation.

*Edit*Just realized that stupid name underline makes my forum name look like "Divon" instead of "Diyon."

[xjac]

So, currently the wolf form can do more sneak attack damage than that of a pure rogue or rogue/monk/rgr splash, with the ability to equip passive effect weapon in offhand without losing an important suffix damage.

[Diyon]

So, currently the wolf form can do more sneak attack damage than that of a pure rogue or rogue/monk/rgr splash, with the ability to equip passive effect weapon in offhand without losing an important suffix damage.

Not sure where you are getting that. A pure rogue has 18d6 SA damage potentially without counting gear. A pure druid wolf form only gets 8d6. A splashed one could maybe get 13d6, but it's probably not the best lvl split or enhancement distribution.

[Maelodic]

Ya I can do that. Just not right this second. Some pieces of my gear haven't been optimized yet as I said earlier, but that's in the works (gear was pretty much set up preU19, but I still have a number of augment slots empty), and it still holds in own in pretty much any difficulty. Most deaths are either stupid error on my part (wasn't watching my hp because it was doing fine the whole time, bad timing decision on when to heal) or nasty CC like a stun in a bad situation.

*Edit*Just realized that stupid name underline makes my forum name look like "Divon" instead of "Diyon."

Can you send me this too please?

I like animals.

[xjac]

Not sure where you are getting that. A pure rogue has 18d6 SA damage potentially without counting gear. A pure druid wolf form only gets 8d6. A splashed one could maybe get 13d6, but it's probably not the best lvl split or enhancement distribution.

A splash build can get up to 17d6. 13 rog/4 mnk/3 dru. If you replace druid with ranger, which is what I mentioned (13 rog/4 mnk/1 rgr or 15 rog/4 mnk/1 rgr), you can get 18d6, and the ability to do unarmed attack speed, stunning fist, and 10% more offhand strikes.

Although enhancement wise it's very ap strained (achievable, but you won't have much left for anything else), it's still possible to drop 1d6 or 2d6 and still get more SA damage than a pure rogue can deal, due to the wolf/unarmed speed, double strike chance, offhand chance, and stunning fist.

edit: any gear that adds to sneak attack damage will favor wolf/unarmed much more than a pure rogue.

[Diyon]

A splash build can get up to 17d6. 13 rog/4 mnk/3 dru. If you replace druid with ranger, which is what I mentioned (13 rog/4 mnk/1 rgr or 15 rog/4 mnk/1 rgr), you can get 18d6, and the ability to do unarmed attack speed, stunning fist, and 10% more offhand strikes.

Although enhancement wise it's very ap strained (achievable, but you won't have much left for anything else), it's still possible to drop 1d6 or 2d6 and still get more SA damage than a pure rogue can deal, due to the wolf/unarmed speed, double strike chance, offhand chance, and stunning fist.

edit: any gear that adds to sneak attack damage will favor wolf/unarmed much more than a pure rogue.

Ok, what you you mean is more sneak attack damage over time, not per hit. Also that you were talking about using this bug. Neither of those were very clear, although in retrospect I should have realized the latter of the two.

In any case, I don't expect this to continue working, so I don't really feel like its worth investing the time to actually use it.

[Violith]

Ok, what you you mean is more sneak attack damage over time, not per hit. Also that you were talking about using this bug. Neither of those were very clear, although in retrospect I should have realized the latter of the two.

In any case, I don't expect this to continue working, so I don't really feel like its worth investing the time to actually use it.

not sure what you mean by SA over time, he was talking about per hit. pure rogues and the rogue/monk/ranger can get 18d6, the rog/monk/druid can get 17d6, thats per hit, however. the ranger splashed build is only better if using handwraps since it'd then be using flurry of blows, and even then it'd be hard to say how much better besides just the unarmed attack speed. The druid splash is nice, but it requires wolf form, and being centered so your list of weapons is more limited.

wolf form for 13rog/4monk/3druid is 1.5[1d6]/19-20x2. rogue weapons are similiar if not better then that, and twf is alot quicker then the wolf form attack speed, so rogue pulls out ahead in SA DPS out of the two of them. not to mention to get the SA as a pure rogue you can spend 9 less AP, and get a vorpal ability (think people consider that 5dps per hit) so, overall a pure rogue should be better then the druid splash if your merely talking about SA+dps.

[xjac]

Shouldn't Wolf and unarmed attack faster than TWF? You get 30% increased attack speed while in wolf form. Not being able to get offhand strikes in wolf form was the problem, and this bug changes it.

And I was talking about SA damage over time; unarmed gives you ~10% more hits / minute, and with deft strikes you get 90% offhand strike chance with twf line; pure rogue only gets 80% with twf line. And to top that off, you get stunning fist, which gives 50%~100% more sneak attack damage (if you're taking No Mercy), and a sure way to guarantee sneak attack damage. On wolf form it's extra 30% double strike and ~30% more hits / minute. I think either one pulls ahead in SA damage over time compared to a pure rogue. Not sure how Assassinate will change this.



It's always possible that they could not fix the bug and just declare it as WAI or leave it unfixed for many years; I will probably make one if it's not fixed by U20.

[elyssaria]

It's always possible that they could not fix the bug and just declare it as WAI or leave it unfixed for many years; I will probably make one if it's not fixed by U20.

Not completely sure that this is a bug tbh, then had to do something to the melee druids. We will see what happens though.. If they change this then they again have to change something with the melee druids. Time will tell I guess.

Edit - Cause TWF/ITWF/GTWF are way better then then 3xNatural Fighting+Wolf increased attackspeed. As long it is like that then you are better off being a druid using Scimitars/Khopeshes or even better Balizarde Rapier or Rebellion Shortsword. Then you don't have the penalties on the cooldown on spells that you get being a wolf, neither do you get the penalty of -2 int and charisma either

[Diyon]

Not completely sure that this is a bug tbh, then had to do something to the melee druids. We will see what happens though.. If they change this then they again have to change something with the melee druids. Time will tell I guess.

It's almost 100% certain its a bug. All you have to do is go look at the original design discussions on animal forms. The devs very clearly state you are not supposed to get offhand attacks in animal form. When something like this changes suddenly without any notification, that's a bug. Unless of course it was something they were planning to do (doubt it) and it slipped in early (If this was the plan they'd almost certainly have it in the release notes), in which case it would still be a bug because it would be supposed to be here yet. Also I will state again: Druids don't need this. At least not wolf druids. Bear druids maybe need some more help (although recent changes moved some in that direction), but this isn't the way to do it.

[elyssaria]

It's almost 100% certain its a bug. All you have to do is go look at the original design discussions on animal forms. The devs very clearly state you are not supposed to get offhand attacks in animal form. When something like this changes suddenly without any notification, that's a bug. Unless of course it was something they were planning to do (doubt it) and it slipped in early (If this was the plan they'd almost certainly have it in the release notes), in which case it would still be a bug because it would be supposed to be here yet. Also I will state again: Druids don't need this. At least not wolf druids. Bear druids maybe need some more help (although recent changes moved some in that direction), but this isn't the way to do it.


It's almost 100% certain its a bug. All you have to do is go look at the original design discussions on animal forms. The devs very clearly state you are not supposed to get offhand attacks in animal form. When something like this changes suddenly without any notification, that's a bug. Unless of course it was something they were planning to do (doubt it) and it slipped in early (If this was the plan they'd almost certainly have it in the release notes), in which case it would still be a bug because it would be supposed to be here yet. Also I will state again: Druids don't need this. At least not wolf druids. Bear druids maybe need some more help (although recent changes moved some in that direction), but this isn't the way to do it.

Ok then I think I need more education in this matter....

Scenario 1.) Lvl 20 Druid, Using dual +5 Holy Burst Scimitar of Pure Good (easy to calculate on these) and having TWF,ITWF and GTWF for a total of 80% chance off offhandattacks (not counting in any rangers splits which would increase this). For damage comparisation let's say the strength is of a score of 30 (+10 damage) and +1W damage from epic scimitar . No PA. Using IC. We are making 20 attacks.

Attack 1: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 2: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 3: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 4: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 5: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 6: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 7: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 8: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 9: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 10: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 11: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 12: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 13: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 14: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 15: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
Attack 16: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
Attack 17: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
Attack 18: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
Attack 19: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
Attack 20: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage

Total damage with mainhand: 897

Then we have the offhands attacks that adds. This character has 80% chance to make an offhand attacks. Which means 16 attacks of 20 generate an extra attack. I will count it against this character by using only 4 crits on the off hands opposed to the normal 4.8 (6 crits (out of 20 attacks) x 0.8 = 4.8.

Attack 1: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 2: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 3: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 4: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 5: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 6: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 7: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 8: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 9: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 10: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 11: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 12: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 13: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage
Attack 14: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage
Attack 15: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage
Attack 16: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage

Total Damage with offhands: 590

Total damage with mainhand and offhand attacks: 1487

Scenario 2.) Lvl20 Druid in Winter Wolf form (gives 30% faster attack speed). Using +5 Holy Club of Pure Good. He has Natural Fighting feat x3 which gives a total chance of doublestrike of +18% For damage comparisation let's say the strenght is of a score of 30 (+10 damage). No extra +1 since that doesn't carry over from the weapon you use when entering wolf form. No PA Using IC. We are making 20 attacks.

To make this fair I will count the total amount of attacks the wolf will do during the same time the other druid does 20 which is 26 (20 x 1.3 wolf attack speed boost).

Attack 1: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 2: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 3: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 4: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 5: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 6: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 7: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 8: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 9: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 10: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 11: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 12: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 13: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 14: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 15: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 16: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 17: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage
Attack 18: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage
Attack 19: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage
Attack 20: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage

Damage: 840

Extra attacks due to 30% extra attack speed from wolf (normal amount of crits on 6 attacks for wolf would be 6*0,2 = 1.2) but I am giving it only 1 calculated crit (he will be compensated when it comes to double strike attacks):

Attack 21: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 22: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 23: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 24: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 25: 10,5Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 26: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage

Damage: 241

Total Damage main hand attacks: 1081


Double Strike attacks:

Out of 20 attacks then 18% of these will be doublestrikes (20*0,18 = 3,6) but I will calculate with 4 attacks, compensating from the rounding down on crits with the extra attacks above, I will even give one extra crit which normally out of 4 attacks would yield 0,8 crits (4x0,2)

Attack 21: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 22: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 23: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 24: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage

Total Damage Double Strikes: 179

Total Damage Mainhands, Extra attacks + Doublestrike attacks = 1260


Sofar the druid NOT in wolf form deals more damage even when I penalize him and adds extra advantage to the wolf. 1487 for the scimitar druid vs 1260 for the wolf druid.

There are some things we have not yet calculated...

# Wolf Druid gets sneak attack damage in wolf form (8d6= 28 per hit) if the target is allowed to take damage from sneak attacks. So with a total amount of attacks of 20 normal + 6 extra attack speed + 4 doublestrike which equals to 30 hits then the total amount of damage would be 30*28= 840 which is a good deal extra damage. Also the Wolf Druid gets 9 extra damage per hit from enhancements which is an extra of 270 damage


# The Scimitar druid don't get the penalty to the cooldowns on spells, he can can also use 2.5W weapons like Balizarde which would give him 6,75 damage extra per attack which from 1,5W extra damage = 36*6,75 = 243 and it had x3 multiplier which would 57,75 extra damage on mainhand crits is 6 times so 346,5 extra damage there then the off hand crits yields 42,75 extra per hit which is 4x 42,75 = 171 damage. So by this weapon only it gets 760,5 damage which works ALL the time since it's not sneak attack damage. You also don't suffer from the cooldown penalty that animal forms gives you. If you want to add more dps then you can multiclass and take 2 monk lvls and being half elf and end up with 5d6 sneak attack damage (17.5 per hit x 36 hits = 630 damage). All this using a full specced caster druid with all the hot stuffs in Season's Herald 42 points and 22 points into Natures Warrior for the Wis bonuses, Fatal harrier and DoubleStrike boost.

I guess you can see my point here...being a full specced caster with the exception that I took PA, IC and TWF feats + Maximise + EV Focus + Empower Healing & Empower then I dare to say that I can deal out better DPS (if not at least equal). This makes me question your remark saying that the wolf DPS is fine. Also this doesn't need to be any druid it can be a Fvs, Wiz, Ranger, Fighter, Rogie or pick your choice. The more melee heavy the more dps will you have and going caster the more utility and caster dps you will have... and in most cases you should easily keep up with the wolf dps as long you are dual wielding. This is the reason why I am saying that the wolf needs something to compensate if the TWF feats won't work anymore. Of course as wolf you can go with the shield and shield feats, which will give you a bit more dps too, but still not compensating the weapons you can choose as a weapon wielder or the sacrifices you have to do to your spells ie bye bye EV focus (=-3 DC to Evocation spells) and one of the metamagics.

[Chai]

Ok then I think I need more education in this matter....

Scenario 1.) Lvl 20 Druid, Using dual +5 Holy Burst Scimitar of Pure Good (easy to calculate on these) and having TWF,ITWF and GTWF for a total of 80% chance off offhandattacks (not counting in any rangers splits which would increase this). For damage comparisation let's say the strength is of a score of 30 (+10 damage) and +1W damage from epic scimitar . No PA. Using IC. We are making 20 attacks.

Attack 1: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 2: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 3: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 4: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 5: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 6: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 7: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 8: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 9: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 10: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 11: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 12: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 13: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 14: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 34,5 damage
Attack 15: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
Attack 16: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
Attack 17: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
Attack 18: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
Attack 19: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage
Attack 20: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x2 critical = 48 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 69 damage

Total damage with mainhand: 897

Then we have the offhands attacks that adds. This character has 80% chance to make an offhand attacks. Which means 16 attacks of 20 generate an extra attack. I will count it against this character by using only 4 crits on the off hands opposed to the normal 4.8 (6 crits (out of 20 attacks) x 0.8 = 4.8.

Attack 1: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 2: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 3: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 4: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 5: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 6: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 7: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 8: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 9: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 10: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 11: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 12: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 29,5 damage
Attack 13: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage
Attack 14: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage
Attack 15: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage
Attack 16: 14 Weapon+enhancement + 5 Str x2 critical = 38 + 7 Holy + 10,5 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 59 damage

Total Damage with offhands: 590

Total damage with mainhand and offhand attacks: 1487

Scenario 2.) Lvl20 Druid in Winter Wolf form (gives 30% faster attack speed). Using +5 Holy Club of Pure Good. He has Natural Fighting feat x3 which gives a total chance of doublestrike of +18% For damage comparisation let's say the strenght is of a score of 30 (+10 damage). No extra +1 since that doesn't carry over from the weapon you use when entering wolf form. No PA Using IC. We are making 20 attacks.

To make this fair I will count the total amount of attacks the wolf will do during the same time the other druid does 20 which is 26 (20 x 1.3 wolf attack speed boost).

Attack 1: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 2: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 3: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 4: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 5: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 6: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 7: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 8: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 9: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 10: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 11: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 12: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 13: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 14: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 15: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 16: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 17: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage
Attack 18: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage
Attack 19: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage
Attack 20: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage

Damage: 840

Extra attacks due to 30% extra attack speed from wolf (normal amount of crits on 6 attacks for wolf would be 6*0,2 = 1.2) but I am giving it only 1 calculated crit (he will be compensated when it comes to double strike attacks):

Attack 21: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 22: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 23: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 24: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 25: 10,5Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 26: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage

Damage: 241

Total Damage main hand attacks: 1081


Double Strike attacks:

Out of 20 attacks then 18% of these will be doublestrikes (20*0,18 = 3,6) but I will calculate with 4 attacks, compensating from the rounding down on crits with the extra attacks above, I will even give one extra crit which normally out of 4 attacks would yield 0,8 crits (4x0,2)

Attack 21: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 22: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 23: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str + 7 Holy + 3,5 Pure Good = 31 damage
Attack 24: 10,5 Weapon+enhancement + 10 Str x3 critical = 61,5 + 7 Holy + 14 Holy burst + 3,5 Pure Good = 86 damage

Total Damage Double Strikes: 179

Total Damage Mainhands, Extra attacks + Doublestrike attacks = 1260


Sofar the druid NOT in wolf form deals more damage even when I penalize him and adds extra advantage to the wolf. 1487 for the scimitar druid vs 1260 for the wolf druid.

There are some things we have not yet calculated...

# Wolf Druid gets sneak attack damage in wolf form (8d6= 28 per hit) if the target is allowed to take damage from sneak attacks. So with a total amount of attacks of 20 normal + 6 extra attack speed + 4 doublestrike which equals to 30 hits then the total amount of damage would be 30*28= 840 which is a good deal extra damage. Also the Wolf Druid gets 9 extra damage per hit from enhancements which is an extra of 270 damage


# The Scimitar druid don't get the penalty to the cooldowns on spells, he can can also use 2.5W weapons like Balizarde which would give him 6,75 damage extra per attack which from 1,5W extra damage = 36*6,75 = 243 and it had x3 multiplier which would 57,75 extra damage on mainhand crits is 6 times so 346,5 extra damage there then the off hand crits yields 42,75 extra per hit which is 4x 42,75 = 171 damage. So by this weapon only it gets 760,5 damage which works ALL the time since it's not sneak attack damage. You also don't suffer from the cooldown penalty that animal forms gives you. If you want to add more dps then you can multiclass and take 2 monk lvls and being half elf and end up with 5d6 sneak attack damage (17.5 per hit x 36 hits = 630 damage). All this using a full specced caster druid with all the hot stuffs in Season's Herald 42 points and 22 points into Natures Warrior for the Wis bonuses, Fatal harrier and DoubleStrike boost.

I guess you can see my point here...being a full specced caster with the exception that I took PA, IC and TWF feats + Maximise + EV Focus + Empower Healing & Empower then I dare to say that I can deal out better DPS (if not at least equal). This makes me question your remark saying that the wolf DPS is fine. Also this doesn't need to be any druid it can be a Fvs, Wiz, Ranger, Fighter, Rogie or pick your choice. The more melee heavy the more dps will you have and going caster the more utility and caster dps you will have... and in most cases you should easily keep up with the wolf dps as long you are dual wielding. This is the reason why I am saying that the wolf needs something to compensate if the TWF feats won't work anymore. Of course as wolf you can go with the shield and shield feats, which will give you a bit more dps too, but still not compensating the weapons you can choose as a weapon wielder or the sacrifices you have to do to your spells ie bye bye EV focus (=-3 DC to Evocation spells) and one of the metamagics.

DId you count the 50% doublestrike from the wolf? Note this is before the boosts which put it at over 100% for the duration of the boost and spell combination. Looks like you accounted for 18%. The other 32% non boosted and 82% (or higher) boosted puts the wolf well over anyone who isnt built to use special weapons.

I think PURE wolf builds need some love, but when multiclassed, they also get monk damage dice coefficient - ive got one thats 7.5(1d10) after feats, twists, and a TR. It plays more like a melee ranger than a druid though.

[Diyon]

snip--


DId you count the 50% doublestrike from the wolf? Note this is before the boosts which put it at over 100% for the duration of the boost and spell combination. Looks like you accounted for 18%. The other 32% non boosted and 82% (or higher) boosted puts the wolf well over anyone who isnt built to use special weapons.

I think PURE wolf builds need some love, but when multiclassed, they also get monk damage dice coefficient - ive got one thats 7.5(1d10) after feats, twists, and a TR. It plays more like a melee ranger than a druid though.

Pretty much what Chai here said. A pure wolf form druid with shield stuff can get a flat out extra 15% double strike. Then you can get up to 50% with another twist and gear (6% and 3% black armor). Sure, you're non-wolf TWF could get that 32% also but all but 10% total would apply to offhand attacks. So wolf is getting more mileage out of any doublestrike. Plus you get a bunch of extra PRR and AC from the shield stuff. Every five minutes I bring my double strike up to 94% for 15 seconds, and the doublestrike boost brings it up to 80% for 20 seconds with a 30 second cooldown.

You also did not include anything from the wolf attack spells. Those add lots of +W. I'm not saying a humanoid form druid can't do good melee dps either. But I'm saying wolf is fine, I get decent spell dps from storm of vengeance and creeping cold on the side. Sleet storm means I can get SA whenever I want just about. Also wolf form gets 20 temp SP on 17-20 and doesn't need to use a lot of castery spells to kill stuff. My wolfs SP can last way way longer than a non wolf druid's, or for that matter, most other casters.

As to the cooldowns, with natural adept I rarely need even notice the slightly longer cooldowns except when buffing. I just almost never spam cast anything, I never need to.

[elyssaria]

Pretty much what Chai here said. A pure wolf form druid with shield stuff can get a flat out extra 15% double strike. Then you can get up to 50% with another twist and gear (6% and 3% black armor). Sure, you're non-wolf TWF could get that 32% also but all but 10% total would apply to offhand attacks. So wolf is getting more mileage out of any doublestrike. Plus you get a bunch of extra PRR and AC from the shield stuff. Every five minutes I bring my double strike up to 94% for 15 seconds, and the doublestrike boost brings it up to 80% for 20 seconds with a 30 second cooldown.

You also did not include anything from the wolf attack spells. Those add lots of +W. I'm not saying a humanoid form druid can't do good melee dps either. But I'm saying wolf is fine, I get decent spell dps from storm of vengeance and creeping cold on the side. Sleet storm means I can get SA whenever I want just about. Also wolf form gets 20 temp SP on 17-20 and doesn't need to use a lot of castery spells to kill stuff. My wolfs SP can last way way longer than a non wolf druid's, or for that matter, most other casters.

As to the cooldowns, with natural adept I rarely need even notice the slightly longer cooldowns except when buffing. I just almost never spam cast anything, I never need to.

Hi again :)

Well as I mentioned in my conclusion I said you could get up to 50% permanent double strike, but that also cost you 2 feats and twists as you mentioned. Also I didn't count the boosts since they are very situational... and also the caster I mentioned above has the +20% Doublestrike boost taken from the Natures Warrior tree.. obviously he doesnt have the 5 min cooldown ability which imo is way to long cooldown since it isn't that great.

I intentionally didn't mention the wolf attack spells since in their current incarnation with the totally borked DC they are fubar and not worth the hazzle imo. Once that is fixed then I might reevaluate. Sleet storm is a clear use for a humanoid druid meleeing too.. even more in a caster spec since quicken helps the really long cast time on Sleetstorm. The temp SP is imo the ONLY thing I miss from the natures warrior tree since it would let me use spells a bit more, especially the wolf attacks spells when they are fixed. I should say though with the SLA's its not really a concern to me that much since I rarely run out of sp's completely, but as said the 20 temp SP is nice. However I am VERY sceptical that you would have the DC to get Storm of Vengeance to hit for full damage and even moreso having Earthquake hitting reliably on EE contents.

I am not saying that the wolf is totally borked by any means, I am saying that I think it's suffering when you have alot of different builds not build to be melees doing the same or close to the same damage then a melee build wolf. Also with all those specific weapons out there today I think that gap gets wider too.

Also I saw a notice from another poster regarding the +W from monks and yes thats completely true, but then you are sacrificing even more of the imo good utility that the wolf has. Personally I simply want to see more distinction and difference with a melee build and a non melee build when it comes to melee dps. In my world a non specific melee should never ever even be close to the damage of a fully specified wolf. The sacrifices that you have to do with a feat starved druid to get the wolf to be decent in melee are quite heavy, but doesn't give you any super advantage over other builds that doesn't have to do the same.

This is of course my personal view and doesn't mean that everyone have to agree with it, but it react when I see some people praising it so much when there are alot better builds out. Also the natures warrior enhancement tree is really dull still imo:

For example:

Enhancements that I would consider pretty worthless:


Tier1:

Aggravate
Shifting Rake
Athletic

Tier2:

Hide of the Crocodile - Way to long cooldown to be worth it
Bloodmoon Frenzy - Pets and summons are not much to have in EE content, only use I somewhat can appreciate is that a cleric hireling can run faster and not slacking behind as much

Tier3:

Reaving Roar - The damage is ridiculus at higher lvls and especially EE contents. Useful in the very beginning

Tier4:

Essence of the Turtle - Way worse ability compared to the wolf one. A wolf will have at least 20% per hit to gain his 20 SP. A Bear 5% each time he gets hit.

Tier 5:

Celerity - The cooldown says it all.


Then we have the somewhat useful abilities: Beastial nature, Four legs Good.. I would really like them if it wasn't that they are competing with Fatal Harrier

So out of the whole tree there are a few I find really good:

Action Boost: Double Strike
Both Wis increases
Fatal Harrier
Vengeful Hunter
Fight
Alpha Strike
Essence of the Shrike
Natural Adept

Thats 9 out of 23 enhancements... to compare that to Season's Herald 18 (eventually 19 if you are very much into decreasing the cost of metamagics, I usually settle with Maximise) of 25.

So there are for sure room for improvements to the wolfs. I would say:

# Fix wolf attack spells DC's, they don't work a **** in the higher contents
# If TWF is taken away then they need to have some other kind of boost that not require them to spend 5 feats out of the normal 7 you get during lvling up (Nat. Atk x3 + Shield feats x2)to even come close to be comparable
# Fix most of the useless or close to useless enhancements in the wolf tree

Not to much to ask for imo ;)

**edit ** Something I haven't tried yet... when in wolf form do you get the effects of the mainhand weapon only or do both weapons effects come along to wolf attacks if you are dual wielding ie two clubs instead of 1 club and a shield??

/E

[Diyon]

Hi again :)

Well as I mentioned in my conclusion I said you could get up to 50% permanent double strike, but that also cost you 2 feats and twists as you mentioned. Also I didn't count the boosts since they are very situational... and also the caster I mentioned above has the +20% Doublestrike boost taken from the Natures Warrior tree.. obviously he doesnt have the 5 min cooldown ability which imo is way to long cooldown since it isn't that great.

I saw, I was just pointing out that doublestrike point for point adds more to wolves than TWFers. Also yes two more feats but it is worth it for the PRR, 15% doublestrike, and AC IMO. I completely agree that the 5 minute cooldown is overkill, lower the cooldown, increase the duration, something.

I intentionally didn't mention the wolf attack spells since in their current incarnation with the totally borked DC they are fubar and not worth the hazzle imo. Once that is fixed then I might reevaluate.

Yes the DCs are not useful but they are attacks dealing +2W, +4W, +6W, and +10W(if you include Alpha Strike). And since they come free most of the time, I consider them worth it, I spam them constantly.

Sleet storm is a clear use for a humanoid druid meleeing too.. even more in a caster spec since quicken helps the really long cast time on Sleetstorm.

I have quicken on my wolf (and maximize). But I mainly brought up this because you mentioned not being able to get SA all the time. I also use Precision and black dragon armor for those fortified things. Possibly twist in grim precision once I get 2 more fate points (the other two would be L.shield mastery and hail of blows). The point being the SA damage is pretty reliable if I want it to be.

However I am VERY sceptical that you would have the DC to get Storm of Vengeance to hit for full damage and even moreso having Earthquake hitting reliably on EE contents.

The save only applies to the lightning strikes in it. The acid portion has no save against it. As to earthquake hitting reliably in EEs? No it doesn't, I never claimed to do so, however I do have something like a 35+ish DC, that in combo with the rate that I neg level stuff I can get stuff to fall to it on EE, I just can't make a room instantly fall over. Same neg lvling also lets me get stuff frozen with Jaws of Winter. So no its not reliable, but still good enough to be useful with the neg lvling I do.


I am not saying that the wolf is totally borked by any means, I am saying that I think it's suffering when you have alot of different builds not build to be melees doing the same or close to the same damage then a melee build wolf. Also with all those specific weapons out there today I think that gap gets wider too.

I don't think this is as close as you think at least not to one well built.

Also I saw a notice from another poster regarding the +W from monks and yes thats completely true, but then you are sacrificing even more of the imo good utility that the wolf has. Personally I simply want to see more distinction and difference with a melee build and a non melee build when it comes to melee dps. In my world a non specific melee should never ever even be close to the damage of a fully specified wolf. The sacrifices that you have to do with a feat starved druid to get the wolf to be decent in melee are quite heavy, but doesn't give you any super advantage over other builds that doesn't have to do the same.

Generally agree with the monk stuff. I love the defensive perks of going with a shield build.

This is of course my personal view and doesn't mean that everyone have to agree with it, but it react when I see some people praising it so much when there are alot better builds out. Also the natures warrior enhancement tree is really dull still imo:

For example:

Enhancements that I would consider pretty worthless:


Tier1:

Aggravate
Shifting Rake
Athletic

Agree, although aggravate can be nice with the right build. Whether that build is nice is another story.

Tier2:

Hide of the Crocodile - Way to long cooldown to be worth it
Bloodmoon Frenzy - Pets and summons are not much to have in EE content, only use I somewhat can appreciate is that a cleric hireling can run faster and not slacking behind as much

Agree again. Bloodmoon Frenzy I would maybe have interest for a completely insane but awesome build. However this requires multiple copies of a very hard to make item so will probably never happen (but it would be awesome!).

Tier3:

Reaving Roar - The damage is ridiculus at higher lvls and especially EE contents. Useful in the very beginning

Agreed.

Tier4:

Essence of the Turtle - Way worse ability compared to the wolf one. A wolf will have at least 20% per hit to gain his 20 SP. A Bear 5% each time he gets hit.

Agreed, still nice to take if you ever use bear though.

Tier 5:

Celerity - The cooldown says it all.

What I said above on it. Still worth taking though, as I do like the other T5 stuff, and its only a couple points at that point.

Then we have the somewhat useful abilities: Beastial nature, Four legs Good.. I would really like them if it wasn't that they are competing with Fatal Harrier

Bestial Nature doesn't stack with parrying items and stuff like that so I don't like it very much. Four Good Legs I love. Fatal harrier they nerfed the duration, so I don't find it worth it anymore, not compared to knockdown immunity.

So out of the whole tree there are a few I find really good:

Action Boost: Double Strike
Both Wis increases
Fatal Harrier
Vengeful Hunter
Fight
Alpha Strike
Essence of the Shrike
Natural Adept

Thats 9 out of 23 enhancements... to compare that to Season's Herald 18 (eventually 19 if you are very much into decreasing the cost of metamagics, I usually settle with Maximise) of 25.

Something to note, I DO have most of the season's herald enhancements as well.

So there are for sure room for improvements to the wolfs. I would say:

# Fix wolf attack spells DC's, they don't work a **** in the higher contents Yes agreed.
# If TWF is taken away then they need to have some other kind of boost that not require them to spend 5 feats out of the normal 7 you get during lvling up (Nat. Atk x3 + Shield feats x2)to even come close to be comparable I agree this could use some work because you are right, it IS expensive. There's a reason I went human. I just don't think they need to throw TWF in there. Perhaps make natural fighting two feats "natural fighting (8%)" and "Improved Natural Fighting (10%).
# Fix most of the useless or close to useless enhancements in the wolf tree

Not to much to ask for imo ;)

**edit ** Something I haven't tried yet... when in wolf form do you get the effects of the mainhand weapon only or do both weapons effects come along to wolf attacks if you are dual wielding ie two clubs instead of 1 club and a shield??

If you are talking about offhands with the bug, I have no clue. Normally the offhand applies no weapon effects.

/E

Comments in green.

I'm not saying that wolf can't use some tweaking. The intense feat tax is kind of out there. I just don't think that TWF feats are the answer, and had to point out that wolf druids aren't as far behind as people here are saying, as long as it is built well.

[elyssaria]

Comments in green.

I'm not saying that wolf can't use some tweaking. The intense feat tax is kind of out there. I just don't think that TWF feats are the answer, and had to point out that wolf druids aren't as far behind as people here are saying, as long as it is built well.

It appears that we agree to quite many things after all ;) I am not the advocate that says TWF has to be there, but I am the one saying Wolf needs some fixes and if they remove TWF then there needs to be something else. I also agree with you that raising the natural fighting feats to maybe 10% each would be a decent solution along with the fixes of the natures warrior tree :)

Just removing the TWF working with Wolfs would simply make it worse for the wolves when they still need some tweaking, also we have to remember that the TWF line is not coming for free. You have to invest 3 feats to get there and that along with 3 natural fighting feats and 2 shield feats... then oooooooooooooooppss we are out of feats even being a human.. Where did the other good stuff go that we need to have like IC, PA, Maximise, Quicken, Precision etc etc.

/E

[Diyon]

Just removing the TWF working with Wolfs would simply make it worse for the wolves when they still need some tweaking, also we have to remember that the TWF line is not coming for free. You have to invest 3 feats to get there and that along with 3 natural fighting feats and 2 shield feats... then oooooooooooooooppss we are out of feats even being a human.. Where did the other good stuff go that we need to have like IC, PA, Maximise, Quicken, Precision etc etc.

/E

This is one of the reasons why I don't want to see TWF left in. They become a no brainer and just utterly break an already heavily stretched feat list. Its a very low choice situation with feats for a melee focused pure wolf druid as it is, but it can work. Toss TWF into the mix and it just screws everything up. More feats is not the answer to anything here no matter what degree the situation is.

EDIT: This would be EXACTLY like, if they decided to make quarterstaffs usable as double weapons and use TWF, but still allowed you to count it as THF at the same time with 1.5x str bonus and glancing blows (in PnP if you choose to TWF you don't treat it as using a 1.5x str mod, but normal 1x and .5x for offhand. Don't recall if PA works the same way there). It's getting too much and potentially overstraining feat taxing.

[Tilomere]

This is one of the reasons why I don't want to see TWF left in. They become a no brainer and just utterly break an already heavily stretched feat list. Its a very low choice situation with feats for a melee focused pure wolf druid as it is, but it can work. Toss TWF into the mix and it just screws everything up. More feats is not the answer to anything here no matter what degree the situation is.

EDIT: This would be EXACTLY like, if they decided to make quarterstaffs usable as double weapons and use TWF, but still allowed you to count it as THF at the same time with 1.5x str bonus and glancing blows (in PnP if you choose to TWF you don't treat it as using a 1.5x str mod, but normal 1x and .5x for offhand. Don't recall if PA works the same way there). It's getting too much and potentially overstraining feat taxing.

Any other character using a shield is using a bastard sword or dwarven axe or other weapon that allows glancing blows while using a shield and using THF + Shield Feats. The THF feats give them glancing blows on top of normal attacks, and the shield feats give them the same doublestrike they give druids.

TWF + shield feats is not dissimilar in ultimate effect to existing use of THF + shield feats. It is superior against a single mob, and inferior against a group of mobs. This was one of the primary reason bear druids failed up to now. They simply could not take advantage of additional AoE attacks a THF + shield character could, so they couldn't deal respectable dps, couldn't hold aggro against multiple targets, and couldn't hit fast enough. If you take TWF away from animal form, it is going to break bear again. In addition, a non-druid gets shield bashes as well.

The game is designed and requires a shield using tank getting additional attacks above and beyond shield double strike in order to function. You do realize when a dwarven fighter sword and board swings through a 5 attack animation that 1, 3, and 4 get cleaving glancing blows, and 1-5 all may double strike and shield bash.

Wolf can always be converted to fueling spells. If memory serves an essence of the shrike 3 monk/17 druid using light finishers gets an 18 mana mass regen, and access to tons of SLAs now.

[Diyon]

Any other character using a shield is using a bastard sword or dwarven axe or other weapon that allows glancing blows while using a shield and using THF + Shield Feats. The THF feats give them glancing blows on top of normal attacks, and the shield feats give them the same doublestrike they give druids.

TWF + shield feats is not dissimilar in ultimate effect to existing use of THF + shield feats. It is superior against a single mob, and inferior against a group of mobs. This was one of the primary reason bear druids failed up to now. They simply could not take advantage of additional AoE attacks a THF + shield character could, so they couldn't deal respectable dps, couldn't hold aggro against multiple targets, and couldn't hit fast enough. If you take TWF away from animal form, it is going to break bear again. In addition, a non-druid gets shield bashes as well.

The game is designed and requires a shield using tank getting additional attacks above and beyond shield double strike in order to function. You do realize when a dwarven fighter sword and board swings through a 5 attack animation that 1, 3, and 4 get cleaving glancing blows, and 1-5 all may double strike and shield bash.

Wolf can always be converted to fueling spells. If memory serves an essence of the shrike 3 monk/17 druid using light finishers gets an 18 mana mass regen, and access to tons of SLAs now.

As I said, somewhere in one of my posts here. Bears are probably still in the hurt. I have been primarily referring to wolf druids. Essence of the turtle barely ever gives you SP in tanking mode (I was recently in EE Belly of the beast and was tanking the big arena waves. They could barely touch me in my setup, so I never go the temp SP, and thus my SP drained out much faster than usual). They did give pure builds a 15% attack speed buff, which helps, but still feels lacking.

As to normal shield users and THF and glancing blows, the animal for doesn't get glancing blows, but doublestrikes another 18%. That may not make up tanking, but on a wolf with 30% faster attack it goes a long way.

[elyssaria]

Ok, since we are discussing attacks quite alot...

Could someone of you explain to me exactly how many attacks per minute the following setups yield:

1.) A monk using wraps (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF)

2.) A druid using two scimitars (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF)

3.) A Wolf Druid using two clubs (no stances, using Natural Fighting x 3)

4.) A Wolf Druid using a club and a shield (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF + Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery)

Really looking forward to see the results of this!

Thanks in advance!

/E

[psykopeta]

Ok, since we are discussing attacks quite alot...

Could someone of you explain to me exactly how many attacks per minute the following setups yield:

1.) A monk using wraps (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF)

2.) A druid using two scimitars (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF)

3.) A Wolf Druid using two clubs (no stances, using Natural Fighting x 3)

4.) A Wolf Druid using a club and a shield (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF + Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery)

Really looking forward to see the results of this!

Thanks in advance!

/E

go wiki, look for attack sequence, do ur calcs

[Diyon]

Ok, since we are discussing attacks quite alot...

Could someone of you explain to me exactly how many attacks per minute the following setups yield:

1.) A monk using wraps (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF)

2.) A druid using two scimitars (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF)

3.) A Wolf Druid using two clubs (no stances, using Natural Fighting x 3)

4.) A Wolf Druid using a club and a shield (no stances, using TWF, ITWF, GTWF & PTWF + Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery)

Really looking forward to see the results of this!

Thanks in advance!

/E

Going off of this https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144-Vanshilar-s-Attack-Speed-Index-and-Formulae/

Keep in mind doublestrike doesn't apply to offhand except from PTWF and not all these attacks are equal on each (TWF 1/2 STR offhand on druid). Also no haste. Numbers will be very slightly off for druids since these are calculated on 20 BAB, but it is a small difference (It's about 1% faster than BAB15). Number three is also assuming there is a 20% offhand attack with no TWF feats as of this bug.

1.) 93.2*1.05+93.2*.8*1.1=
179.876

2.) 86.7*1.05+86.7*.8*1.1=
167.331

3.) 86.5*1.3*1.18+86.5*.2=
149.991

4.) 86.5*1.3*1.13+86.5*.8*1.1=
203.1885

Now for some additional ones. We can get much higher doublestrike. I'm going to show number of attacks with 50% doublestike WITH all the TWF feats working (So shield masteries, TWF, etc). And also what my druid gets without TWF at all (50% doublestrike still).

Everything) 86.5*1.3*1.5+86.5*.8*1.1=
244.795

Mine without bug) 86.5*1.3*1.5=
168.675

Finally, to be fair lets compare a nonmonk TWF with the 12% extra doublestrike I get from gear and nonshield destiny stuff (17%).

86.7*1.17+86.7*.8*1.1=
177.735

EDIT: I would have gone included haste, but as the number of attacks you actually get with speed bonuses like that (wolf is different, its an animation base mod) scale differently, and I don't no where one-handed/sword and board fall on that chart and whether wolf could be extrapolated off of that, I didn't include it. The base numbers other than twitching or monk unarmed are all almost the same at base speed anyways, so I just used fTHF for the wolf (It starts off the slowest by .1-.2 less).

[Tilomere]

A 20 fighter using bastard sword/shield will have 19% double strike from kensai enhancements, and an average of 12% double strike from StD enhancements. Added to 18% double strike for new bastard sword, and 15% double strike from shield effects, this fighter will end up with 64% double strike.

With 86.6 base attacks/minute (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144-Vanshilar-s-Attack-Speed-Index-and-Formulae) this fighter will go through 17.32 5 attack rotations/min

Each 5 attack rotation will make 3 glancing blow attacks on attacks 1, 3, and 4, (weaker but AoE cleave), so it really counts as an 8 attack rotation.
Double strike on the 5 attack rotation will cause double glancing blow attacks on 1, 3 and 4, so has effectively full effect. So each 8 attack rotation will effectively hit 13.12 attacks/rotation.
A dwarven fighter will also receive 12 shield bashes while attacking for 1 minute.

13.12 attacks/rotation x 17.32 rotations/min + 12 shield bashes = 239.24 attacks/minute

Also without haste.

-----------------

I thought wolf was unarmed table at 30% base enhancement bonus to attack speed. So 129 attacks/min at full BaB?

[elyssaria]

A 20 fighter using bastard sword/shield will have 19% double strike from kensai enhancements, and an average of 12% double strike from StD enhancements. Added to 18% double strike for new bastard sword, and 15% double strike from shield effects, this fighter will end up with 64% double strike.

With 86.6 base attacks/minute (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144-Vanshilar-s-Attack-Speed-Index-and-Formulae) this fighter will go through 17.32 5 attack rotations/min

Each 5 attack rotation will make 3 glancing blow attacks on attacks 1, 3, and 4, (weaker but AoE cleave), so it really counts as an 8 attack rotation.
Double strike on the 5 attack rotation will cause double glancing blow attacks on 1, 3 and 4, so has effectively full effect. So each 8 attack rotation will effectively hit 13.12 attacks/rotation.
A dwarven fighter will also receive 12 shield bashes while attacking for 1 minute.

13.12 attacks/rotation x 17.32 rotations/min + 12 shield bashes = 239.24 attacks/minute

Also without haste.

-----------------

I thought wolf was unarmed table at 30% base enhancement bonus to attack speed. So 129 attacks/min at full BaB?

Hmmm interesting... yea the wolf really looks competetive.. Still confirms the what I have thought from the beginning. It needs some tunings. Also the fighter has like a trillion of feats to take where the druid is very feat starving. Then a fighter have alot more good damage boosting abilities from kensai, and since staying pure it should have quite a few enhancement points to use for a good race that can boost the specific weapon you are using. For example a Dwarf with Dwarven Axe, alot of damage boosts with that combo. So not only more attacks in base, a lot more damage and even more important alot more damage of the glancing blows too..

I think unarmed table requires you to have unarmed strike (ie from monks)...

This thread is good... it truly brings up issues and ideas to be taken further :)

[Diyon]

I thought wolf was unarmed table at 30% base enhancement bonus to attack speed. So 129 attacks/min at full BaB?

Wolf does not use the unarmed portion of the table. That is specifically for monk unarmed animation. Also, the speed bonuses on that table reflect how those speed bonuses effect different styles. A 20% speed bonus doesn't give precisely the same increase across all styles in practice. The wolf speed increase doesn't apply to that table because it's not a speed bonus to any of those animations; it is a different animation that is 30% faster than the typical ones. So as long as we're using the first line of numbers on the table, we're pretty safe taking one of the nontwitch, nonmonk ones and multiplying it by 1.3. Beyond that is uncertain without going through the careful testing that Vanshilar has been so good at.

[Diyon]

Mine without bug) 86.5*1.3*1.5=
168.675

Finally, to be fair lets compare a nonmonk TWF with the 12% extra doublestrike I get from gear and nonshield destiny stuff (17%).

86.7*1.17+86.7*.8*1.1=
177.735

Something to note here. My druid is only inflicting about 9 attacks less per minute that my example TWFer here, and all of those attacks have full STR bonus to them (numbers at zero speed bonuses, with no temporary doublestrikes or anything of that sort).

That doesn't seem unreasonable, especially considering the defensive bonuses I get out of that as well.

[Tilomere]

Something to note here. My druid is only inflicting about 9 attacks less per minute that my example TWFer here, and all of those attacks have full STR bonus to them (numbers at zero speed bonuses, with no temporary doublestrikes or anything of that sort).

That doesn't seem unreasonable, especially considering the defensive bonuses I get out of that as well.

I think a flaw in your analysis is that you are comparing your full druid setup against a hypothetical TWF without any enhancements or a gear setup for that TWF. When you do the full analysis, like what I did for the fighter above, the numbers change greatly. Until I did the math I myself didn't have any idea that a simple 86 base attack/minute sword and board fighter actually ended up with 239 attacks/minute.

And my number may be low since I don't understand shield bash mechanics.

[elyssaria]

Something to note here. My druid is only inflicting about 9 attacks less per minute that my example TWFer here, and all of those attacks have full STR bonus to them (numbers at zero speed bonuses, with no temporary doublestrikes or anything of that sort).

That doesn't seem unreasonable, especially considering the defensive bonuses I get out of that as well.

That's true, but a person using weapons can have better chance to crit, he can cast spells without any extra cooldown, he doesn't get the -2 int/cha, he can get access to the good stuff in the in the juggernaut ED like Momentum Swing, Volcano's Edge, Lightning Mace, Anvil of Thunder, Pulverizer or Headmans Chop depending on what weapon you are using.

Also you have the option of unarmed monk splash that also get the full strength on all hits. Without the limitations of the wolf.

[Diyon]

I think a flaw in your analysis is that you are comparing your full druid setup against a hypothetical TWF without any enhancements or a gear setup for that TWF. When you do the full analysis, like what I did for the fighter above, the numbers change greatly. Until I did the math I myself didn't have any idea that a simple 86 base attack/minute sword and board fighter actually ended up with 239 attacks/minute.

And my number may be low since I don't understand shield bash mechanics.

That analysis isn't flawed because the goal of that those particular posts were intended to demonstrate amount of attacks, not demonstrate dps viability. Note I didn't include anything but stuff relevant to attack speed in that analysis, that was intended. I can come out with more detailed damage notes later. Also, remember my build is not supposed to be a dps king. It is good dps + healing + various support + survivability.


That's true, but a person using weapons can have better chance to crit, he can cast spells without any extra cooldown, he doesn't get the -2 int/cha, he can get access to the good stuff in the in the juggernaut ED like Momentum Swing, Volcano's Edge, Lightning Mace, Anvil of Thunder, Pulverizer or Headmans Chop depending on what weapon you are using.

Also you have the option of unarmed monk splash that also get the full strength on all hits. Without the limitations of the wolf.

I do have a 17-20/x3 19-20/x4 crit. While not amazing is still a good profile. I've mentioned before that I very, very rarely every need to cast a spell on cooldown. One exception is storm of vengeance but generally I save that for where it will be efficient (not one or two monsters typically) so generally have it when it's needed. So the cooldown thing with the capstone reducing the penalty is pretty much unnoticeable to me. I don't use int or cha for anything except NPC diplomacy dialogues. While that's true about the dreadnought ED, unarmed monks are in the exact same boat in that regard.

As to the monk unarmed, well that applies to every TWFer that isn't an unarmed monk (or I suppose an unarmed grandmaster without monk but who does that?) or perhaps a Tempest (I think that's way up in the tree somewhere). If I was looking for a pure super DPS, then I'd make one of these things, but that's not typically what druid is about.

-It's fully self-reliant as far as healing goes and can extend it to others.
-Incredibly durable for dps spec.
-Provides decent CC to good CC (situation dependent)
-Is extremely versatile. I adjusted destinies and tanked the entire arena portion of EE In the Belly of the Beast while self healing. I've tanked SR in EH FoT with my own healing. I've healed numerous raids and groups. I've kited where stuff needs kiting. I've CC'd for groups and raids (doesn't mean I can handle every scenario, but I generally know my limits).
-Extremely SP efficient caster. As long as I'm not required to do heavy healing my lower SP pool will typically outlast any other caster because of how often I get temporary SP.

These are the benefits I have that not every DPS spec character has.

When I get up to it I'll pull out some specific damage calculations, although trying to account for activated attacks is very difficult. I'll probably calculate without them and list them along side.

[Tilomere]

Oh just a FYI Diyon, I noticed you were using the negative level bug to get things to fail saves:

------------------------
/'However I am VERY sceptical that you would have the DC to get Storm of Vengeance to hit for full damage and even moreso having Earthquake hitting reliably on EE contents.

The save only applies to the lightning strikes in it. The acid portion has no save against it. As to earthquake hitting reliably in EEs? No it doesn't, I never claimed to do so, however I do have something like a 35+ish DC, that in combo with the rate that I neg level stuff I can get stuff to fall to it on EE, I just can't make a room instantly fall over. Same neg lvling also lets me get stuff frozen with Jaws of Winter. So no its not reliable, but still good enough to be useful with the neg lvling I do./'

--------------------------

The bug is that lifestealing proc is going off on every crit instead of only a few crits like the description says. The patch notes for update 20 specifically say they are fixing this, so you will be playing without any DC abilities again shortly...

Negative levels are currently the fastest way to kill EE Eveningstar content. So when you say your druid without TWF is fine, but use a different bug that is definitely more powerful and being patched out, I definitely 100% believe you, but don't know if it will hold true in the future. The last post in my Natural Evolution wolf build breaks down how to use negative leveling to trivially kill mobs and links the patch notes.

[Diyon]

Oh just a FYI Diyon, I noticed you were using the negative level bug to get things to fail saves:

------------------------
/'However I am VERY sceptical that you would have the DC to get Storm of Vengeance to hit for full damage and even moreso having Earthquake hitting reliably on EE contents.

The save only applies to the lightning strikes in it. The acid portion has no save against it. As to earthquake hitting reliably in EEs? No it doesn't, I never claimed to do so, however I do have something like a 35+ish DC, that in combo with the rate that I neg level stuff I can get stuff to fall to it on EE, I just can't make a room instantly fall over. Same neg lvling also lets me get stuff frozen with Jaws of Winter. So no its not reliable, but still good enough to be useful with the neg lvling I do./'

--------------------------

The bug is that lifestealing proc is going off on every crit instead of only a few crits like the description says. The patch notes for update 20 specifically say they are fixing this, so you will be playing without any DC abilities again shortly...

Negative levels are currently the fastest way to kill EE Eveningstar content. So when you say your druid without TWF is fine, but use a different bug that is definitely more powerful and being patched out, I definitely 100% believe you, but don't know if it will hold true in the future. The last post in my Natural Evolution wolf build breaks down how to use negative leveling to trivially kill mobs and links the patch notes.

I've seen those notes, however I was never aware that it is 100% a bug. And still not in fact, as those notes are not 100% clear. Have you confirmed this is indeed what the notes are doing in practice on Lamannia? I haven't been there to check. In any case, if this change goes through as something like that, the effect will be entirely dependent on what exactly said "chance" is.

Either way, I don't expect to unable to perform with this build after the update.

[IBCrabin]

The problem with twf is not for a deep level druid build but splashing 2 druid to monk heavy build.

This give the unarmed die from monk to druid form.

16 monk gives 3[w] to dire wolf die of 1d8
Shintao empty handed mastery gives d2 to wolf weapon die. dire wolf goes to 1d10
Monk can equip 2 weapons and is considered unarmed. can use stunning fist with 2 weapons.
improved martial art feat for 1[w]
reinforced fist for 0.5[w]
A dance of flower for 1.5[w] twist
Dancing with flame for 0.75[w]
past life monk 0.5[w]
Power attack 0.5[w] twist

3 + 1 + .5 +1.5 +.75 +.5 +.5 = 7.75[1d10]

I probably forgot other things to beef up the weapon die.

One solution is to changed animal form unarmed weapon type to something else but still benefit from being centered weapon monk.

[Tilomere]

The real coup is to combine monk die steps with a weapon with a high crit profile as a monk/fighter/Wand+Scroll mastery combo. This lets you use dance of flower and improved power attack +2W with LD and class weapon crit effects, so you end up with 5d10 +50 doubled to 10d10+100.

[IBCrabin]

This is just to say you can get a high weapon die using monk and the crazy damage with twf and unarmed. I did not add strength modifier or deadly item to the damage calculation.

The Crit profile is easily boosted with over whelming critical feat, dreadnaught critical multiplier and master earth stance, bumping it up to 6x at a cost of .75[w] dancing with flame being in gmof.

If you go wisdom build, the stunning fist will land quite a bit for an extra 50% helpless damage.

Crit profile from weapon doesn't get added to animal form. The multiplier always stay at 19-20/x3 . only IC/bludgeon make the dice go to 17-20/3

[Tilomere]

This is just to say you can get a high weapon die using monk and the crazy damage with twf and unarmed.

My idea of crazy damage is taking the 10d10 +100 centered fighter/monk and multiplying it by blitz, then doubling it with Mornh stunning blow and sense weakness twist, ending up with a 4 digit number per hit, and killing an 18k health target in 5 seconds. Its dps described with a k, kdps, or krazydps. But I'm sorta biased, since I have a 28 sorc.

TY all, these discussions have helped me really understand mechanics of what is going on. I'm good to go now.

[emptysands]

The problem with twf is not for a deep level druid build but splashing 2 druid to monk heavy build.

This give the unarmed die from monk to druid form.

16 monk gives 3[w] to dire wolf die of 1d8
Shintao empty handed mastery gives d2 to wolf weapon die. dire wolf goes to 1d10
Monk can equip 2 weapons and is considered unarmed. can use stunning fist with 2 weapons.
improved martial art feat for 1[w]
reinforced fist for 0.5[w]
A dance of flower for 1.5[w] twist
Dancing with flame for 0.75[w]
past life monk 0.5[w]
Power attack 0.5[w] twist

3 + 1 + .5 +1.5 +.75 +.5 +.5 = 7.75[1d10]

I probably forgot other things to beef up the weapon die.

One solution is to changed animal form unarmed weapon type to something else but still benefit from being centered weapon monk.

This is not an entirely correct comparison. While wolf form does get the benefit of die steps plus high crit range. Is also should lose the off-hand attack bonus.

Wolf vs monk melee has always basically been about big hits vs more hits. Notwithstanding any bugs at the moment.

[Tilomere]

I've been able to look at all the discussions and then take a step back and look at animal form damage and different approaches. It's been really helpful. People are talking about adding some 1d10's, or even 1d2's, or some crit multiplier from earth stance. Some are talking about stunning, interactions with ED, double strike, level drain mechanics, etc.

I have a 28 sorc. This gives me an outside perspective on damage. My sorc has a 13d6 fireball SLA and uses it at around 700 spell power, for ~100d6, AoE, so 300d6 when I hit 3 targets. If anyone were to try to suggest how a few 1d10s, or 1d2s or a small amount of crit from earth stance was significant to that 300d6 total damage fireball, I'd find it pretty funny. Honestly, that 300d6 fireball is just a regular solid attack, and I would never even consider anything that added a few more damage die to it seriously. That's why sorcs are generally shiradi instead of draconic.

A good damage attack is a 470 spell power energy burst twist cast at level 37 (7 enhancement + 2 twilight levels), for 4745 base damage, multiplied by 1.5 for the mobs I made helpless with shiradi, and multiplied by 1.3 for crit for 9k AoE damage, or 27k damage for 3 targets. Again, if anyone were to try to suggest to add a few 1d10s, or 1d2s, or a small amount of crit from earth stance if they even worked to that 27k total damage energy burst, I would be busting at the seams. Imagine if EE knuckles and monk splash added a few die 10's (even if multiplied by spell power/spell crit/helplessness) to that 27k energy burst or fireball. Would it be viable to do so? If the answer is no, why then does it suddenly become viable to base your druid around adding a few die 10's to your druid attacks? An insignificant amount multiplied by a decent attack speed (or spell mechanics, if it worked) is still, in the grand scheme, insignificant.

----------------------------------------------------

In the grand scheme, I think we've been too focused, simply because we didn't know better or are unwilling to accept what it takes to do animal form dps. We have been optimizing how to best add more or less insignificant amounts of damage on top of base druid damage and missing the big picture. The big picture is that we already know how top of the line weapon melee damage is done. We just need to adapt it.

Step 1) Solid weapon melee damage involves a decent damage bonus from a stat, deadly, PA, some spells, enhancements, and abilities. This ones easy. Have decent strength and gear, PA, and some enhancements.

Step 2) Solid weapon melee damage involves extra attacks from TWF or THF. This ones easy, TWF works with animal forms. You can also boost this with lots of different effects.

Step 3) Solid weapon melee damage involves beating on a helpless mob with bonus damage to helpless mobs. This ones also easy. Stunning blow and/or fist, and ED abilities that involve helplessness (Sense Weakness, Anvil of Thunder), Enhancement abilities that involve helplessness (Bully, No Mercy, Ear Smash, etc.)

Step 4) Solid weapon melee damage involves a good critical profile. This ones also easy. IC:B, Monk Earth Stance, Barb critical rage, LD Headman's Chop, Devastating Critical (Fighter Kensai doesn't work in forms, it boosts the weapon instead).

Step 5) Solid weapon melee damage involves a good ED. We know you want Fury or LD for raw melee damage. Fury is out since animal form doesn't get crit from adrenaline. So we have LD. Which leaves us with Blitz, +250% damage.

----------------------------------------------------

So how good is simply abandoning any pretense of adding die steps and simply copying how other melee do good dps? How about a 5 barb 9 druid 6 fighter, LD TWF.

I'm going to assume the build and enhancements from the last Natural Evolution level drain build, since it is being nerfed in update 20. https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425933-Natural-Evolution-a-simplified-wolf-dps-build?p=5134232#post5134232

Step 1) Assume you end up with 55 damage/hit. Approximate, a tad low, incorporates seeker.

Step 2) 4.85 hits/second, since you miss on 1s. Math is in Natural Evolution post. Can get more if you want.

Step 3) Ear Smash, Stunning blow, Anvil of Thunder to apply helpless. Sense Weakness twist plus Bully is 95% bonus damage to helpless. I'm thinking level drain mabar gem in an axe to help land stunning blow, or maybe 3, or a drow axe with stunning blow ... hmm so many options ...

Step 4) 15-18x3, 19-20x5 profile with axe equipped and berserked. 16 bonus hits worth of damage per 19 hits, or 84% bonus damage (1's are a miss).

Step 5) Blitz 250% bonus damage.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So multiply this out:
55 damage/hit x 4.855 hits/second x 1.95 x 1.84 x 3.5 = 3.35 kdps.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, that is dps described with a k, kdps, or krazydps.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone know if limbchopping from sever works in animal form? Every other really unique proc I've tried doesn't.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Sever

[Tilomere]

Now that I know what TWF actually can do for a druid, I think it needs to stay.

The first reason is every other class with a melee aspect can fill in one or more steps to allow a strong multiclass character that hits kdps, or epic level dps. The only step that druid brings is attacks, since wolf crit profile is worse than gear currently available, druid damage of 1d10 base is worse than gear currently available, and druids bring nothing to the table to help make a mob helpless or beat on a helpless mob. All a druid brings is attacks. If that is removed, druid multiclass combos are dead.

The second reason is that if it is removed, not only are multiclass combos dead, but there will be nothing to use the TWF feats on other than maximize, empower, and quicken. This will cause bear form to dissappear, and collapse all the different wolf crit, sneak attack, spell fueling, and other misc. builds all down to a single spell fueling build. It won't be a choice on what you play or pick 1-24 if there are only 9 viable animal form feats. (3xNF, 2xshield, 3xmeta, IC:B). While some prefer this simplicity, I don't think this is why a lot of players pick DDO.

The last is that while it does allow kdps builds, other more powerful builds (centered PDK 2x Nightmare ftr/monk/palis spring to mind) have kdps plus no-fail saving throws, evasion, knockdown resistance due to higher than average strength, and no-fail scroll healing x HAMP, while also maintaining high health, armor, and PRR. So it isn't fundamentally offering something not offered by other combos, but it is adding to variety by offering it in a different way. At least the druid version has weaknesses built in of having lower saving throws, feats, health, berserking to prevent use of UMD, etc. So it is really powerful unless things don't go your way, like a sorc.

Does it need tweaking as to power level? I don't know. The kdps scenarios are being partially addressed in U20 with the lifestealing nerf. I'm just beginning to grasp what real melee dps is. But I think it would diminish variety by removing it.

[Pilgrim1]

stuff... more stuff...

I think you have some miss-information on wolf crits and attack speed. First off, as far as i know base wolf attack rate follows the sword and board speed (then multiplied by the 30%). I have no evidence other then I read that somewhere.

You can not get increased crit multipler in fighter for wolf attacks. I have tested this on lamaland and was never able to manage it. If you have do give the details please. I don't know if barb crit rage increases it but it seams likely.

Many of the attacks that require weapons from LD might not work, but some might. When dealing with what works with wolf weapons its important to test out every thing. For example, the poison stance that monks get in nija spy which applies poison damage on crits does not work when wielding a handwrap (in wolf form) but does work when wielding shortswords (in wolf form).

My guess on the highest attacks/sec you could get would be 9 druid/3 ranger/fighter? sword and board, ranger 20% attack boost, shield double strike, 18% natural fighting, killer and fatal harrier. But once again, that would have to be tested. I know you cant be in a fighter stance that requires a shield in animal form.

Stunning fist is amazing tool but to get it viable in anything past the high road you need serious gear and slot investment as well as fighter/dwarf/wf/PL.

If you have mannyshot then you can still be very viable in fury of the wild but that again takes a serious feet investment. LD is great on paper but getting it charged up fast really requires the cleave line, again more feats.

Master blitz: when it works it absolutely wrecks everything. Once again its a iffy thing. It can be hard to charge, you have 15 seconds to get it running if your not cairfull it can slip away, zone through an instance and its gone! Another melee toon blitzing? good luck getting yours rolling. A raid? no mobs to charge up on. What I'm saying is that in many quests LD becomes a destiny with only action boosts for a druid.

I currently have a 13 druid/6monk/1fvs. I have some experience with melee druids but more with caster druids.

[Tilomere]

I think you have some miss-information on wolf crits and attack speed. First off, as far as i know base wolf attack rate follows the sword and board speed (then multiplied by the 30%). I have no evidence other then I read that somewhere. --- I used hasted TWF speed, instead of unarmed, based on very last calculation in other thread. No one knows what it is exactly.

You can not get increased crit multipler in fighter for wolf attacks. I have tested this on lamaland and was never able to manage it. --- Barb crit rage works. I would assume that kensai martial arts focus should work for a fighter/monk/druid for critical range (and multiplier through earth stance) for much the same effect.

Many of the attacks that require weapons from LD might not work, but some might. When dealing with what works with wolf weapons its important to test out every thing. For example, the poison stance that monks get in nija spy which applies poison damage on crits does not work when wielding a handwrap (in wolf form) but does work when wielding shortswords (in wolf form). --- I've tested most things. Read up on things I haven't tested. It is also why I have been simplifying my builds. When your auto attack hits for kdps, the details on everything else aren't important.

Stunning fist is amazing tool but to get it viable in anything past the high road you need serious gear and slot investment as well as fighter/dwarf/wf/PL. --- This is what is bugged on live. On live, you can just use a life stealing affix for a few seconds. It may be feasible to make it work with mabar gems in the future. Or you could use barb or LD attacks to make the mob helpless. It may be possible to get a triple mabar level drain socketed axe in the future...and use ear smash and LD axe attack first to get some time to debuff the mob for a stunning attack. Or life stealing may not be nerfed that much. Not really a concern to me, since it's not like they are going to make core components of the game not work.

LD is great on paper but getting it charged up fast really requires the cleave line, again more feats. --- Not really a concern. I wanted to show what was possible if you stepped away from concentrating at a few die steps and looked at the big picture. There's always a few more feats available from switching to human, taking out sap, switching to fighter/monk, dropping a shield or NF feat, etc. Some enhancement moves may work as well. Details beyond why I made the build.

Master blitz: when it works it absolutely wrecks everything. Once again its a iffy thing. -- I should hope a build that can do kdps doesn't work that well on everything. You don't have to charge blitz in animal form, but those are details that are beyond why I made the build.


I didn't make the build to actually use it. The build is an illustration so I could understand what TWF actually meant to a druid, and to show the importance of die steps everyone seems focused on. From playing my sorc I know that good damage is described with kdps. That's why I stepped back to see what was going on because the talk here confused me. That being said, the build will wreck face, and will clear most quests far faster than any die step monk splash, because even if it isn't optimized perfectly, it has all the components of what goes into kdps.

What I was more interested in was a model for how elements for good damage work together to form that dps. The model shows that TWF allows bonus attacks to satisfy one of the elements. If it is removed, druid multi-classing and druid splash variety will be greatly diminished. I derive enjoyment out of picking TWF feats over three metamagics since it makes my druid more unique, but also recognize it can be a tad unbalanced in extreme cases.

Not so bad though to make up a build on the fly against conventional wisdom on druid animal form and to end up over 3k dps on a first try. :) You may have already known how to make melee and animal form damage work, but for me it was a huge breakthrough. You can see from my Natural Evolution post I started out far lower, evolved a bit with the level drain, but digesting and adding everything in this and other posts together just put it all into perspective for me.

[Diyon]

Something to keep in mind: Turbine is almost certainly NOT going to let this TWF bug stand. If they do anything, they may change how something already intended for animal form works or add something new, but I do not find it likely for this bug to live past U20 at the latest.

[elyssaria]

Something to keep in mind: Turbine is almost certainly NOT going to let this TWF bug stand. If they do anything, they may change how something already intended for animal form works or add something new, but I do not find it likely for this bug to live past U20 at the latest.

First off all - You say its a bug, nothing official has been stated regarding this and I refuse to believe that turbine have missed this and other threads with questions regarding twf being wai and this leads me to think they are not sure about the status of this thing. Since if they knew for sure then then would have said so. Also the patchnotes for Lamannia concerning U20 has not so called "buggfixes" regarding this which again leads to me thinking that they are not sure about how it will be.

Also I again say I totally agree with Tilomere... see the big picture. As I have tried to explain and even more Tilomere has explained there are many builds out there the does the job better then a wolf druid do, and THAT is part of the problem! Remove TWF and you just sink the Wolf/Bear druid to even worse status. Sure go ahead and waste your feats to become somewhat durable but the losses imo are too great.

I have a druid that I TRed into a caster druid instead since that is viable imo whereas my first prototype of melee druid were not.

My next concept will be a palemaster variant which has much better options of being a durable melee build then the wolf one.

My stance as well as Tilomere seems to be, remove TWF and then you make the situation worse, and something else needs to compensate if that is removed. Personally I feel it being plain stupid that you are forced into using shields to be able to get your attacks up to do somewhat ok dps (5 feats that most other classes only needs 3 feats for). If TWF is removed then give an option to people not fancying the shields to have their attack speed increased since right now it's mandatory to take the shield feats and also somewhat mandatory to take the ED shield enhancement too... worthless setup imo.

/E

[IBCrabin]

First off all - You say its a bug, nothing official has been stated regarding this and I refuse to believe that turbine have missed this and other threads with questions regarding twf being wai and this leads me to think they are not sure about the status of this thing. Since if they knew for sure then then would have said so. Also the patchnotes for Lamannia concerning U20 has not so called "buggfixes" regarding this which again leads to me thinking that they are not sure about how it will be.

Also I again say I totally agree with Tilomere... see the big picture. As I have tried to explain and even more Tilomere has explained there are many builds out there the does the job better then a wolf druid do, and THAT is part of the problem! Remove TWF and you just sink the Wolf/Bear druid to even worse status. Sure go ahead and waste your feats to become somewhat durable but the losses imo are too great.

I have a druid that I TRed into a caster druid instead since that is viable imo whereas my first prototype of melee druid were not.

My next concept will be a palemaster variant which has much better options of being a durable melee build then the wolf one.

My stance as well as Tilomere seems to be, remove TWF and then you make the situation worse, and something else needs to compensate if that is removed. Personally I feel it being plain stupid that you are forced into using shields to be able to get your attacks up to do somewhat ok dps (5 feats that most other classes only needs 3 feats for). If TWF is removed then give an option to people not fancying the shields to have their attack speed increased since right now it's mandatory to take the shield feats and also somewhat mandatory to take the ED shield enhancement too... worthless setup imo.

/E

On the very first page of this post


The druid's animal form has feats that are meant to compensate for the lack of Two Weapon Fighting support. The change which allows Two Weapon Fighting feats to apply to animal form attacks is not working as intended, and is under investigation. It's too early to say when or if it will change, but you can officially designate this as "not working as intended." Thanks!

Keep the twf feats and change the unarmed type die to a different weapon type die so monks will not be the big winner with 2 druid to take advantage of the 30% attack speed and critical threat range of 17-20/x3 using IC/bludgeon.

The 30% attack speed in wolf form does stack with monk unarmed speed. Go try a 12 monk 2 druid splash vs a 12 druid 2 monk splash. You will noticed the ki charges a lot faster with the 12 monk.

[Diyon]

Personally I feel it being plain stupid that you are forced into using shields to be able to get your attacks up to do somewhat ok dps (5 feats that most other classes only needs 3 feats for). If TWF is removed then give an option to people not fancying the shields to have their attack speed increased since right now it's mandatory to take the shield feats and also somewhat mandatory to take the ED shield enhancement too... worthless setup imo.

/E

This I can agree with. Having a shield shouldn't be the only viable option. An option for non shield fanciers would be great.

Also as IBCrabin pointed out, there has already been a Turbine response in this thread.


The 30% attack speed in wolf form does stack with monk unarmed speed. Go try a 12 monk 2 druid splash vs a 12 druid 2 monk splash. You will noticed the ki charges a lot faster with the 12 monk.

I want to see actual properly tested numbers for that.

[elyssaria]

This I can agree with. Having a shield shouldn't be the only viable option. An option for non shield fanciers would be great.

Also as IBCrabin pointed out, there has already been a Turbine response in this thread.


My apologies, I have totally missed that... Weird since I have really been looking for an official statement regarding this and it has all the time been under my nose :p Thank for pointing it out..

Thought he said " It's too early to say when <B>or if it will change</b>". So what this says is that it isn't what they thought it would be, but he doesn't either say it will not remain as it is either. So basically a pending investigation regarding this seems to be what they are up to.

Personally I either want to see the Natural Fighting feats removed and have TWF feats work as normal, or buff the natural fighting feats so you don't need to have shield feats to be viable (I withdraw this statement since when I wrote the sentence below I realized that the natural fighting feats are needed as well as the TWF feats)

Normally you get penalized when it comes to the amount of attacks when using shield and board instead of TWF and thus they get compensated with more double strike with the shield feats. The problem here is that since (we say TWF won't work in the future) you have no benefits whatsoever by using two weapons instead of shield and board since you don't get any extra attacks (from the TWF feats) and you don't get the extra double strike from the shield feats. So a druid that chooses not to be shield and board gets heavily shafted here. With TWF feats they do not, they have an option to use it and of course they can't use the shield feats to get extra double strike. So I think TWF should remain working AS long you are using two weapons, it should of course not work if you are shield and board user to avoid 80% offhands attack along with 50% doublestrike (static). There needs to be an option to either choose to be dual wielder (you loose the defence AC, DR, Block etc, but gain DPS) or shield and board (better defence, a bit less dps).

/E

[elyssaria]

On the very first page of this post



Keep the twf feats and change the unarmed type die to a different weapon type die so monks will not be the big winner with 2 druid to take advantage of the 30% attack speed and critical threat range of 17-20/x3 using IC/bludgeon.

The 30% attack speed in wolf form does stack with monk unarmed speed. Go try a 12 monk 2 druid splash vs a 12 druid 2 monk splash. You will noticed the ki charges a lot faster with the 12 monk.

A monk with 2 splash druid will not get 17-20/x3. Since the first base form is only 1d6 17-20/x2 (with IC:B)

"Wolf: Transform into a wolf. While in Wolf form, your base attack speed is 30% faster, you gain a +3 bonus to attack while flanking, +1d6 sneak attack damage, and a +10% enhancement bonus to movement speed. While in wolf form, you gain access to a number of spells and enhancements that require Wolf form, but the cooldowns on your non-animal form spells are increased to 2.5 times their normal length.
Your natural attacks do 1d6 damage, do both piercing and slashing damage, and Critically hit for double damage on a roll of 19-20."

So to get to the x3 you need at least 8 lvls of druid.


Those few +W that we are talking about isn't that much of an issue if you look more into it. Compare this to a TWF Kensei 18 Fighter / 2 Monk using dual Mornhs (Warhammers)

The stats of Mornh: Mornh, Hammer of the Mountains - +7 Warhammer: 2.5[1d10], Expanded Threat: 19-20/x3, Fracturing, Magma Surge, Stunning +10, Seeker +10, Adamantine

So the that fighter has 2.5W 1d10 and will have 15-20 x3. A 8 Druid (winterwolf) 12 monk will have 2.5W 1d10 17-20 x3. So the fighter has already here a steady advantage. Then the fighter can utilize Legendary Dreadnought to the fullest since he can use Momentum Swing and Lay Waste. He can use Anvil of Fire. He can ALSO use Pulverizer which increases the threat range with another +1 so he will get 13-20 x3, then add Devastating Critical +1 multiplier on 19-20 (this the druid can have too if choosing LD). The fighter in contrast to the druid doesn't have any problems with feats so he of course has cleave and greater cleave and overwhelming critical +1 multiplier on 19-20. So Now we have a fighter with 2.5W 1d10 13-20 x3 and 19-20 x5 to compare with the Druid 8/ Monk 12 that has 2.5W 1d10 17-20 x3. Then you can add all extra W's to the fighter that you can add to the druid.

So it's quite clear that the wolf is not even close to compete in this department... and here people are looking at the possible +W that a monk+druid can come up with when it's nothing spectacular compare to what other melees can get.

Or you can check out the popular barbarian/fighter eSoS builds too and see how your melee druid compares to that ;)

OR

Simply check what Tilomere said about his sorcerer ;)

/E

[Diyon]

Normally you get penalized when it comes to the amount of attacks when using shield and board instead of TWF and thus they get compensated with more double strike with the shield feats. The problem here is that since (we say TWF won't work in the future) you have no benefits whatsoever by using two weapons instead of shield and board since you don't get any extra attacks (from the TWF feats) and you don't get the extra double strike from the shield feats. So a druid that chooses not to be shield and board gets heavily shafted here. With TWF feats they do not, they have an option to use it and of course they can't use the shield feats to get extra double strike. So I think TWF should remain working AS long you are using two weapons, it should of course not work if you are shield and board user to avoid 80% offhands attack along with 50% doublestrike (static). There needs to be an option to either choose to be dual wielder (you loose the defence AC, DR, Block etc, but gain DPS) or shield and board (better defence, a bit less dps).

/E

Ah, here we can come to agree again. That would be an acceptable situation, although personally I think they should address what you have here in a different way of some sort.


On another note, I still don't think people give enough credit to the +W on animal form attacks. (Although yes, a Mornh fighter does go to craziness, not saying it out does that. But people seem to like to forget that they exist in entirety)

[emptysands]

The stats of Mornh: Mornh, Hammer of the Mountains - +7 Warhammer: 2.5[1d10], Expanded Threat: 19-20/x3, Fracturing, Magma Surge, Stunning +10, Seeker +10, Adamantine

So the that fighter has 2.5W 1d10 and will have 15-20 x3. A 8 Druid (winterwolf) 12 monk will have 2.5W 1d10 17-20 x3. So the fighter has already here a steady advantage. Then the fighter can utilize Legendary Dreadnought to the fullest since he can use Momentum Swing and Lay Waste. He can use Anvil of Fire. He can ALSO use Pulverizer which increases the threat range with another +1 so he will get 13-20 x3, then add Devastating Critical +1 multiplier on 19-20 (this the druid can have too if choosing LD). The fighter in contrast to the druid doesn't have any problems with feats so he of course has cleave and greater cleave and overwhelming critical +1 multiplier on 19-20. So Now we have a fighter with 2.5W 1d10 13-20 x3 and 19-20 x5 to compare with the Druid 8/ Monk 12 that has 2.5W 1d10 17-20 x3. Then you can add all extra W's to the fighter that you can add to the druid.

So it's quite clear that the wolf is not even close to compete in this department... and here people are looking at the possible +W that a monk+druid can come up with when it's nothing spectacular compare to what other melees can get.


While a centered Kensei will also get bonuses like +1.5W Dance of Flowers, Fist of Iron, etc. A center melee drunk wolf with wraps will get the base monk die step bonus and plus various sneak attack bonuses. The biggest nerf to drunk builds is the AP cost of Half Elf.

Note 8 Druid/12 Monk leaves 18% double strike at the door. A melee wolf will want at least 9 druid levels.

[VorpalKnight]

@elyssaria

Centered Kensai dual wielding mornhs leaves the poor druid with TWF feats in the dust even with its faster attack speed and extra damage in animal form we got in the newest update patch, on ld they can also charge blits much faster, its no contest really.

Monks are probably the best instant killers in the game with quivering palm changes in EE's, its pretty insane. They also have insane durability, higher crit multiplier, higher unarmed die that can be upgrade to 1d8 from 1d6. My rogue is very jealous of quivering palm right now.

[Tilomere]

Wether or not TWF or lifestealing stays or goes, I'm starting to realize that wolf druids just aren't the answer to many things at high level EE. Which isn't unreasonable for a jack of all trades class. Yes you could multiclass a druid extensively to get some of the elements needed for dps, and some of the elements for defense, but at that point you don't have a druid anymore. So you might as well play your druid as you like, and if you hit a limit you want to go past in some way pick a more specialized class. TWF and other bugs just move that limit around.

I'm realizing that I can bring a druid wolf to solid dps, but I can't get it to make saving throws at the same time, which gives me an EH destroyer, or party EE character. Which is perfectly ok. If I wanted to raise the bar all the way I'd copy this:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422550-U19-Fighter-Build-Cetus

But playing that might be like playing my sorc and leave me with unrealistic expectations of what everything I play should be able to do.

[Pilgrim1]

Many posts in this seam to come at this from the max DPS perspective, has anyone really looked into the reverse? For example in the past there have been monk stunning fist cleric/fvs builds that focus on DC casting with stunning fists and low melee damage.

So I know I can get my caster druid in water form into viable EE earthquake DC (stormhorns), but is there a way to maintain this and to get out passable DPS that will out-strip the SLA that druids get, that plus amazing Stunning Fist?

Also once again one of the best things about being a druid monk cross is you can basicly be a monk with kopleshes and stunning fist. Also I would expect a druid/monk to be able to reach a higher attack speed then any sort of other monk multi-class.

[elyssaria]

Many posts in this seam to come at this from the max DPS perspective, has anyone really looked into the reverse? For example in the past there have been monk stunning fist cleric/fvs builds that focus on DC casting with stunning fists and low melee damage.

So I know I can get my caster druid in water form into viable EE earthquake DC (stormhorns), but is there a way to maintain this and to get out passable DPS that will out-strip the SLA that druids get, that plus amazing Stunning Fist?

Also once again one of the best things about being a druid monk cross is you can basicly be a monk with kopleshes and stunning fist. Also I would expect a druid/monk to be able to reach a higher attack speed then any sort of other monk multi-class.

Sure you can go with a stunning first build and have some DC for casting, but then again why going wolf/bear. What we are discussing here mainly is how viable the wolf/bear is in melee focus compared to other classes and even moreso the impact of having TWF feats working with Wolf/Bear forms atm.

I find it very weird to see a monk cross using khopeshes and stunning first since stunning first requires that you are unarmed and if you are in wolf/bear form then the type of weapon doesn't matter since ie crit chance and multiplier doesn't carry over.

/E

[Tilomere]

I did my sword/shield math wrong. It is a four attack swing with THF cleaves on attacks 1,3,4. And shield bashing isn't 12/minute, its a % of normal attacks two and four (no double shield bashes). I also want druid, not fighter, to compare wolf form TWF + shield and elemental THF + shield.

A 20 druid using bastard sword/shield will have 18% double strike for new bastard sword, 5% PTWF, and 15% double strike from shield effects, for 38% total. (A fighter adds 31% to this from Kensai + STD)

With 86.6 base attacks/minute (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144-Vanshilar-s-Attack-Speed-Index-and-Formulae) this druid will go through 21.65 4 attack rotations/min.

Each 4 attack rotation will make 3 glancing blow attacks on attacks 1, 3, and 4, (weaker but AoE cleave), so it really counts as an 7 attack rotation.
Double strike on the 7 attack rotation will cause double glancing blow attacks on 1, 3 and 4, so has effectively full effect. So each 7 attack rotation will effectively hit 9.66 attacks/rotation. No glancing blows while moving though.

A druid will also receive 20% shield bashes from Imp. Shield Bash feat and 20% Shield bash from a shield bashing shield, on normal attacks 2 and 4. There are 43.3 normal 2 and 4 attacks, so up to 17.32 shield bashes.

9.66 attacks/rotation x 21.65 rotations/min = 209 attacks/minute, plus up to 17 shield bashes. (Fighter is 256 + 23 shield bashes)

Also without haste.

-----------------

So one could maintain a large amount of attacks simply by going one step beyond dropping die steps and simply dropping wolf form, which ironically gives you die steps back. Then take the three feats saved by dropping NF > pick up bastard sword and max/emp. Take the 80 enhancement points saved and pick up 80 more spell power in Seasons Herald. Pick up 100% fort and stun immunity in elemental form. A 90 all spell power Sage's Ring combined with 40 spell craft will give you an all purpose 435 spell power for SLAs, while still maintaining hundreds of attacks/minute, the defense of a shield, and the superior defense of elemental form. Then you can twist energy burst. Of course, the real trick would be to make energy burst and bastard sword both work well at the same time off the same stat. There's nothing like a 10-20k energy burst twist to raise up that average dps a tad. /2 FVS divine might? Maybe /4?

------------------

I'm thinking I focused my druid single target wolf melee dps too much taking advantage of things that are not WAI or being patched out. Can't handle swarms, but definitely rocks small groups. This would handle everything in the game, while capturing that druid feel.

[Diyon]

I find it very weird to see a monk cross using khopeshes and stunning first since stunning first requires that you are unarmed and if you are in wolf/bear form then the type of weapon doesn't matter since ie crit chance and multiplier doesn't carry over.

/E

I believe they weren't suggesting actually using khopeshes, but saying that wolf form is basically the equivalent of wielding khopeshes from a crit profile perspective.



I'm thinking I focused my druid single target wolf melee dps too much taking advantage of things that are not WAI or being patched out. Can't handle swarms, but definitely rocks small groups. This would handle everything in the game, while capturing that druid feel.

My wolf druid tends to excel in swarm situations. It can generally survive them without much resource use and gets a lot of aggro off the party via my persistent aoe spells, as well as making the damage from those spells more efficient.

[elyssaria]

I believe they weren't suggesting actually using khopeshes, but saying that wolf form is basically the equivalent of wielding khopeshes from a crit profile perspective.



My wolf druid tends to excel in swarm situations. It can generally survive them without much resource use and gets a lot of aggro off the party via my persistent aoe spells, as well as making the damage from those spells more efficient.

Why no comments about his calculations comparing a normal sword and board build actually being superior compaired to a melee focused wolf? Whereas the wolf spend alot to become viable in melee and and his spec doesn't give up anything :p This again leads me to the conclusion that the wolf implementation needs some work.

BR

/E

[Tilomere]

After further reading on forums, I think I understand why fighter kensai doesn't work with handwraps/animal form. It is the same reason it doesn't work with shurikens. Kensai adds crit to a weapons profile, like adrenaline.

Shurikens aren't coded as weapons, they are ammunition. Shurikens seem to buff a base dex/strength ranged attack. They receive poison damage from poison quivers which poison ammunition. Handwraps also aren't coded as weapons, but buffs to unarmed attacks. Therefore Kensai fails to add crit profile to handwraps as well, since they do not have a crit profile. This is also why dex to damage fails for unarmed. There is no weapon to convert the damage modifier on the weapon to dex. The +1 attack/damages all work since they are just bonuses to enhancement levels of the final attack.

So if you want a good crit profile, you are left with enraged barb, which means you can't cast healing spells or function as a druid. I don't consider 17-20x3 good. Some people will say it is good because it matches a khopesh, and it does. However, no one takes khopesh proficiency to end up with the 17-20x3 crit profile of a non-magical khopesh. They take khopesh to use 18-20x3 base Drow Khopesh doubled by IC to 15-20x3 or better. A fighter adding one to base Drow Khopesh makes it 17-20x3 base, and 13-20x3 after IC:Slashing. 13-20x3 is the real khopesh profile and reason people take khopeshes. 14-20x3 a barb/druid can get I consider solid.

---------------------

You can get some AoE healing with /4 FVS for smiting (and also pick up divine might for knockdown resistance, strength for tactics, and damage). Seems tight on feats though.

---------------------

The math for a fighter sword/board of 279 attacks/minute means that when they remove TWF from bear, it is going to be beyond fixing unless something drastic is added. Bear needs THF + Shield if it doesn't have TWF + Shield. It seems that wolf needs TWF. Because of this, I think NF should be made to work similiarly to THF and TWF for bear and wolf respectively. Heck, maybe even have them work in elemental forms similiarly to TWF (fire) and THF (ice). I don't think they should be exact copies of TWF/THF since all these forms have unique attacks of their own that could use some buffing since U19 jacked druid hybrids of solid spells and NF seems to be the ideal candidate for natural form attacks. Then one could really have an adaptable character.

-------------------------------------

For example, imagine if NF added 10/20/30% offhand attacks, non-stacking with TWF, and 30/60/100% damage to wolf special attacks/spells. This would allow you to customize your druid with TWF + NF, or just NF, or just TWF. You could still multiclass a druid and add TWF/wolf for a lot of attacks, or just add NF for general bear and wolf use. Or maybe you just want to use your druid wolf to fuel solid animal form and other spells like it was before U19 so you get NF and metamagics.

If the same NF added 10/20/30% glancing blows to bear like THF, and 30/60/100% bonus to bear special attacks/spells, or even Ice Elemental, a druid could adapt between different tanky or dps forms to suit their needs.

[Diyon]

Why no comments about his calculations comparing a normal sword and board build actually being superior compaired to a melee focused wolf? Whereas the wolf spend alot to become viable in melee and and his spec doesn't give up anything :p This again leads me to the conclusion that the wolf implementation needs some work.

BR

/E

Because while it useful to see that, it wasn't along the point I was personally going for. Comparing a fighter and druid directly is silly. Knowing where they stand relatively is not. A fighter and melee druid have different niches. Fighters are supposed to be melee monsters (generally). A wolf druid has many things that a pure fighter is not remotely capable of in a similar capacity. I was by no means trying to indicate that a melee druid will out dps a fighter in most situations (with skill/gear/etc being held equal), and no one should expect one to. That's like expecting a bard to consistently be more dps than fighters.

Short answer, yes it is superior in some things, but not all things.

[elyssaria]

Because while it useful to see that, it wasn't along the point I was personally going for. Comparing a fighter and druid directly is silly. Knowing where they stand relatively is not. A fighter and melee druid have different niches. Fighters are supposed to be melee monsters (generally). A wolf druid has many things that a pure fighter is not remotely capable of in a similar capacity. I was by no means trying to indicate that a melee druid will out dps a fighter in most situations (with skill/gear/etc being held equal), and no one should expect one to. That's like expecting a bard to consistently be more dps than fighters.

Short answer, yes it is superior in some things, but not all things.

Well, I was actually saying Sword and Board...since Tilo's last comparisation wasn't about a fighter but a druid choosing sword and board instead of wolf form and to me it surely appear to be the better choice. That alone makes the wolf form at least not really useful at all. The bearform is not good in it's current form anyway but if they manage to make it viable then it could still be a choice. The wolf on the other hand is more a fluff choice imo.

That's one thing that concerns me...

Also one of the reasons I will TR one of my chars into a melee wizard which I am sure will have quite a bit more viability then my druid has atm. I might choose to do some similar version with a druid once they sort out the things with them, however as it is now my druid will stay pure caster since that is at least working pretty well.

/E

[Diyon]

Well, I was actually saying Sword and Board...since Tilo's last comparisation wasn't about a fighter but a druid choosing sword and board instead of wolf form and to me it surely appear to be the better choice. That alone makes the wolf form at least not really useful at all. The bearform is not good in it's current form anyway but if they manage to make it viable then it could still be a choice. The wolf on the other hand is more a fluff choice imo.

That's one thing that concerns me...

Also one of the reasons I will TR one of my chars into a melee wizard which I am sure will have quite a bit more viability then my druid has atm. I might choose to do some similar version with a druid once they sort out the things with them, however as it is now my druid will stay pure caster since that is at least working pretty well.

/E

Sorry, was thinking of a different line of talk there. Let me properly comment on that.


I did my sword/shield math wrong. It is a four attack swing with THF cleaves on attacks 1,3,4. And shield bashing isn't 12/minute, its a % of normal attacks two and four (no double shield bashes). I also want druid, not fighter, to compare wolf form TWF + shield and elemental THF + shield.

A 20 druid using bastard sword/shield will have 18% double strike for new bastard sword, 5% PTWF, and 15% double strike from shield effects, for 38% total. (A fighter adds 31% to this from Kensai + STD)

With 86.6 base attacks/minute (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/275144-Vanshilar-s-Attack-Speed-Index-and-Formulae) this druid will go through 21.65 4 attack rotations/min.

Each 4 attack rotation will make 3 glancing blow attacks on attacks 1, 3, and 4, (weaker but AoE cleave), so it really counts as an 7 attack rotation.
Double strike on the 7 attack rotation will cause double glancing blow attacks on 1, 3 and 4, so has effectively full effect. So each 7 attack rotation will effectively hit 9.66 attacks/rotation. No glancing blows while moving though.

A druid will also receive 20% shield bashes from Imp. Shield Bash feat and 20% Shield bash from a shield bashing shield, on normal attacks 2 and 4. There are 43.3 normal 2 and 4 attacks, so up to 17.32 shield bashes.

9.66 attacks/rotation x 21.65 rotations/min = 209 attacks/minute, plus up to 17 shield bashes. (Fighter is 256 + 23 shield bashes)

Also without haste.
.

168.675 attacks/min (no haste) vs. 209.139 attacks/min (no haste) (plus some shield bashes). Something to keep in mind:

- 89.631 of those attacks deal 50% base damage and only 8.06679 of them will deal special damage/effect stuff. If for simplicity purposes we ignore the 9% special stuff, this translates to the equivalent of 44.8155 glancing blows per minute. So effectively this is 164.3235 full damage attacks/minute (+17.32 shield bashes). This comes much closer to the wolf (168.675 attacks/min).

-Each of those wolf attacks will deal +9 base damage and 8d6 (28 average) sneak attack damage. That's something worth noting.

-Takedown, Baiting Bite, Jaws of Winter, and Alpha strike can add up to 108[W] extra per minute. Factoring in crits, about 173[W], 194[W] if you have a x4 multiplier.

-Essence of the Shrike on average will be generating up to 674.7 spell points per minute (I am aware that this won't always be used effectively, but that is still a staggering amount of SP even cut in half).

-Getting the shield bashes makes it more feat intensive than the feat intensive melee wolf (NF replaced with THF line, imp. shield bash is +1 over).

-Snowslide. Rocket wolf ftw.

-10 more PRR

-Here's one I don't ever see mentioned: Harrowing Pack, 4th lvl buff spell- The wolf pack hounds their prey, attacking from all sides. Grants the caster and all of his or her hirelings, pets, summoned creatures, and charmed creatures a +2 enhancement bonus to flanking attacks, and granting them a knockdown effect when they roll a 20 on attack rolls. Not sure if that enhancement thing means damage too or not. I suspect it wouldn't stack with weapon enhancement and magic fang anyways. Something I should test though.


That said, I'm not trying to say the non wolf sword and board druid wouldn't have its advantages either. Elemental forms are awesome, body of the sun is a lot of fun. The glancing blows produce more aoe melee damage. I just wanted to point out what may have been overlooked.

[Tilomere]

-Here's one I don't ever see mentioned: Harrowing Pack, 4th lvl buff spell- The wolf pack hounds their prey, attacking from all sides. Grants the caster and all of his or her hirelings, pets, summoned creatures, and charmed creatures a +2 enhancement bonus to flanking attacks, and granting them a knockdown effect when they roll a 20 on attack rolls.


I never got the knockdown on this to work. I don't know if has been fixed since I last tested it a few months back. I know the ED balanced attacks knockdown from PA works. I don't think anyone mentions it since it's bugged.

[elyssaria]

I never got the knockdown on this to work. I don't know if has been fixed since I last tested it a few months back. I know the ED balanced attacks knockdown from PA works. I don't think anyone mentions it since it's bugged.

I also tried this quite extensively and couldn't get any knockdowns to work either. Also I believe the flanking bonus is a +to hit bonus and not a +damage bonus since that's what the normal benefits are when you are flanking.

Diyon - Yes I know the wolf gets some attacks from the spells and I also am aware that it gets sneak attacks. However we shall not forget that the shield and board druid have alot of enhancement points that he/she can use on enhancements to boost his own damage too.. ie a 18/2 druid monk halfelf rogue dilettante could easily at a low cost gain 5d6 sneak attack damage too for quite few enhancement points to be honest, and could utilize the extra double strike from shintao, have evasion permanent without being forced into one specific ED. What I meant to say is that the shield and board version gives you more aoe damage, more options to where you want to go since you actually have the some extra enhancements points free to spend on other stuff. My first version (before I rerolled to pure caster druid) actually spent about all his enhancement points into the natures warrior and seasoned herald trees except for 3 point into the human enhancement tree. That since it was the only possible way to get the melee somewhat decent and still having the spells somewhat effective too and as you say essence of the shrike is more or less mandatory in a wolf build and so is the natural adept enhancement to lessen the penalties of being a wolf.

[Diyon]

I never got the knockdown on this to work. I don't know if has been fixed since I last tested it a few months back. I know the ED balanced attacks knockdown from PA works. I don't think anyone mentions it since it's bugged.


I also tried this quite extensively and couldn't get any knockdowns to work either. Also I believe the flanking bonus is a +to hit bonus and not a +damage bonus since that's what the normal benefits are when you are flanking.

Diyon - Yes I know the wolf gets some attacks from the spells and I also am aware that it gets sneak attacks. However we shall not forget that the shield and board druid have alot of enhancement points that he/she can use on enhancements to boost his own damage too.. ie a 18/2 druid monk halfelf rogue dilettante could easily at a low cost gain 5d6 sneak attack damage too for quite few enhancement points to be honest, and could utilize the extra double strike from shintao, have evasion permanent without being forced into one specific ED. What I meant to say is that the shield and board version gives you more aoe damage, more options to where you want to go since you actually have the some extra enhancements points free to spend on other stuff. My first version (before I rerolled to pure caster druid) actually spent about all his enhancement points into the natures warrior and seasoned herald trees except for 3 point into the human enhancement tree. That since it was the only possible way to get the melee somewhat decent and still having the spells somewhat effective too and as you say essence of the shrike is more or less mandatory in a wolf build and so is the natural adept enhancement to lessen the penalties of being a wolf.

It may indeed be bugged. I've always just taken it for granted but I hadn't heard (until now) of it being bugged.

The comparison I just made was strictly a pure druid to pure druid. Start throwing splashes in there and it changes things. Many of those things would benefit both similarly. As to enhancements, on my pure build, I don't really have much else to spend them on honestly if I were to change it to a non wolf sword and board, so it really doesn't feel like its freeing up much.

And again, nothing wrong with that set up. It definitely has its benefits. My point was just to illustrate that the wolf is still more or less in the same ball park.

[Tilomere]

I deleted build here moved it to my build post.

I've been working towards making an all purpose druid build. I'm finding that with a few metamagics, a few defensive and utility feats, there are only a few feats left to increase combat damage. So I need a set of feats that works across all five forms in order to make a druid that functions like a druid and shape shifts around. Right now it is TWF. I don't really care what it is in the future, as long as it exists.

NF doesn't do that. NF feats are fantastic in that they let you further specialize if you choose, but they lock you in to only a few druid aspects, so you cant function like a full druid.

[Khain]

why u want nerf druid animal form? dps with twf chain in wolf form is lower then acrobat, acrobats get +25% DS and 15% attack speed and 13-20x3 critical profile with sireth. Finally wolf build is competetive to other insine builds like acrobat with sireth or monk with quivering palm, cetus build and others. Before enhacement pass wolf build 9druid9monk2fighter was one of superb dps builds, enhacement pass killed this build to the ground, now build like 10druid8fighter2monk coming back! These animal build have some strong pros but also strong cons like no bludgeon damage in form, feat starved, no meele aoe dps like twohander.Please dont do a change to animal druids, its not over powered!

[bartosy]

why u want nerf druid animal form? dps with twf chain in wolf form is lower then acrobat, acrobats get +25% DS and 15% attack speed and 13-20x3 critical profile with sireth. Finally wolf build is competetive to other insine builds like acrobat with sireth or monk with quivering palm, cetus build and others. Before enhacement pass wolf build 9druid9monk2fighter was one of superb dps builds, enhacement pass killed this build to the ground, now build like 10druid8fighter2monk coming back! These animal build have some strong pros but also strong cons like no bludgeon damage in form, feat starved, no meele aoe dps like twohander.Please dont do a change to animal druids, its not over powered!

is twf still working with druid wolf/bear form or did they fix it by now ?

[Lanhelin]

is twf still working with druid wolf/bear form or did they fix it by now ?

It should, as I still get all the hit and dmg penalties in Animal Form when equipping two weapons -.-

[inspiredunease]

As of yesterday it was still working. Don't be surprised at a stealth nerf in U21 or 22 though. Anyone tested it in Lamaland since the alpha u21 build dropped?

[serthcore]

As of yesterday it was still working. Don't be surprised at a stealth nerf in U21 or 22 though. Anyone tested it in Lamaland since the alpha u21 build dropped?

As of today it still works on lamania u21

[savingsoul]

As of today it still works on lamania u21

What is the latest word on this?

[inspiredunease]

What is the latest word on this?

Still works. Now with added SWF brokenness.

[Haphazarduk]

Still works. Now with added SWF brokenness.

How do you get both to work? You can get the two feat lines through ranger auto grant but equipping two weapons disables SWF....

Hap

[unbongwah]

Since the offhand weapon doesn't directly contribute to dmg anyway, you can either leave your offhand empty or equip an orb and get SWF to apply. At least, I think that's how it works; haven't tested it in-game.

[Haphazarduk]

Since the offhand weapon doesn't directly contribute to dmg anyway, you can either leave your offhand empty or equip an orb and get SWF to apply. At least, I think that's how it works; haven't tested it in-game.

So you just get additional 'proc rate' of main? I did a quick test of build with GSWF and GTWF and it *did* seem crazily fast but id have to do a proper comparison to be sure.

Hap

[Nuclear_Elvis]

As a newer player who will be playing Druid soon (and likely going against the grain and testing out Bear form), I am interested in knowing:

- Is the TWF Feat benefit still processed while fighting in beast forms?

Fighting style is a huge decision for me on this one, but I intend to be a high-STR melee type, tankish. I've read through this thread and others on Druid - now a bit more familiar with complaints toward the beast forms not having the melee power in contrast to other options, bear animation, etc.

My initial suggestion: Druid enhancement trees need a complete overhaul. Separate Enhancement trees for separate paths of focus, perhaps one per form that you want to achieve. Bear form should have it's own separate tree, not a consolidated melee/beast form tree. Elementals, wolves -- same, should have their own trees. Speaking of trees - an Ent/Tree form would be absolutely fabulous as an additional Form to take, would really spark Druid as well. Preserving one single enhancement tree if you try to be a Druid caster - ok, should sustain that just in case someone dabbles into it, but there is clear need to have Druid overhauled.

Last, I would also like to see more specific and official response and detailed information from the dev's on this. Players having to go to Lammania to test things that should be fine print on Enhancement or Feats is just wrong. It looks like when Druid was added as a class, the many implications of Beast forms were not properly staffed and annotation made in all the right spots. Much like the fine print for some enhancements or Feats that tell you "this doesn't stack with Half-Elf ___" -- we should know exactly what does and doesn't stack, what doesn't work in Beast form, etc. Dev's - less discovery learning for Druids, please!

[unbongwah]

- Is the TWF Feat benefit still processed while fighting in beast forms?
Yes: see this thread (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/455517-Melee-druid-what-is-working-with-it).