Newbs (like me) and the blue bar....

[Istaria1]

Hi all,

Been running through options for my first TR. I am level 18.5 at the moment, and am hoping that this weekend is the time to do my first TR into a class I actually LIKE. I'm playing a Wiz at the moment, and am hating this class. Why? Well, it's all to do with the blue bar.

First off, the pros of a Wiz are obvious:
- Great selection of spells
- Can change at any shrine or inn
- Great synergy with Rogue for trapping (my char is a 16/2 wiz/rog)

The cons:
- That **** blue bar. I can't maintain SP worth a ****, and the reason is that I don't have the experience to know how far to push what, when. Blow my SP now with a big nuke effort? Save em like Scrooge in case there's no shrine? Generally, I don't know. If you're a 10th lifer running through the same quest for the 532nd time, this might not be an issue.

Seems to me that a Wiz, Cleric, and maybe Bard have the same issue. Favoured Soul and Sorc probably less so. Arti? I dunno, never ran into any issues on mine, but maybe. No idea about Paladins.

Point is that the blue bar is seriously newb-unfriendly. Or at least it always has been to me.

Opinions?

Aes.

[Urist]

I've never really got on with using the blue-bar as primary damage, either. My general strategy is to take things slow and careful, luring out opponents one at a time or in small groups - divide and conquer.
Doesn't work so well with blue bars, who need to take out big groups of enemies at a time to be mana-efficient. It seems rather off that my melee characters would use cover and choke-points to fight tactically, whereas my wizard's go-to strategy was to get as much aggro as possible, then shield up and take the pain, while standing in a wall of fire...

These days, I'm quite content knowing that I don't like playing caster-types. So any blue bar I have is usually just for buffing or healing. Then I just get stuck in with blade, hammer or pewpew.

[cru121]

my strategy is watch the blue bar of other arcanes and adapt accordingly.

[Philibusta]

When you play this Wizard, are you grouping a lot, or do you tend to prefer solo play?

If you're mostly grouping, you shouldn't be running out of SP too often, because each person in the group should be puling their weight. And if you're being pushed too much to act as a party buffbot, tell em all to go to Shavarath. Everybody wants to run these "BYOH" groups now...fine. If you're the Wizard and you gotta bring your own heals, everyone else can darn well bring their own buffs.

If you prefer solo play, on the other hand (as I do), bring along a hireling if you're not already doing that. At least one Cleric hireling at most levels (might have to use a hire that's one level under you, till you hit your next level) have the Divine Vitality ability. That, in effect, makes them your mana-battery.

[Ryiah]

Blow my SP now with a big nuke effort?

Which spells are you using? Keep in mind that you generally want to stick to highly efficient damage spells like Wall of Fire, Ice Storm, and Acid Rain.

[Istaria1]

I must admit that as a casual player with very irregular hours, I do tend to play solo quite alot. I don't necessarily think this is a solo issue though. Even in a group, I can't always judge who can and can't do anything. So I tend to act the same - spam the AOEs, grab the outliers with force spells to drag them in. At the end of a quest I might have the highest or the lowest kill count, but I don't see alot of difference in SP needs.

Having played a bit, I don't think I could ever recommend a Wiz for a new player. It just relies on your knowledge too much.

Aes.

[Charononus]

Big thing imo that hurts new players with a blue bar is sp items. Other than that the big part is knowing when to turn your meta's off.

[Istaria1]

Which spells are you using? Keep in mind that you generally want to stick to highly efficient damage spells like Wall of Fire, Ice Storm, and Acid Rain.

I do exactly this. I'll grab far away mobs in the same room with force SLAs.

[Istaria1]

Other than that the big part is knowing when to turn your meta's off.

Exactly! Knowledge a new player (and for that matter, ME) won't have.

Blue bars are not a newb friendly thing.

[Charononus]

Exactly! Knowledge a new player (and for that matter, ME) won't have.

Blue bars are not a newb friendly thing.

I'd say as a general rule

heighten always on for instant kills and cc
max, empower, etc only on for red names
quicken on once you are level 18

hope that helps.

[Ryiah]

Exactly! Knowledge a new player (and for that matter, ME) won't have.

It depends on the player. Some players pick this up on their own rather quickly. Some you practically have to teach them every little concept. It comes down to a combination of common sense and math. These two allow you to realize that raising the SP cost through metamagics does not always result in an equal increase in damage.

[Istaria1]

It depends on the player. Some players pick this up on their own rather quickly. Some you practically have to teach them every little concept. It comes down to a combination of common sense and math. These two allow you to realize that raising the SP cost through metamagics does not always result in an equal increase in damage.

Not til you know the quest or situation. A first life player running a new quest is running blind.

[Ryiah]

Not til you know the quest or situation. A first life player running a new quest is running blind.

Yes, if you go around burning SP as hard as you can when you don't know the quest. Once again it comes down to common sense. Common sense tells me to be sparse with my resources when running a new quest. After I have properly learned the quest I can go back and be a little less frugal.

[djl]

Hi all,

Been running through options for my first TR. I am level 18.5 at the moment, and am hoping that this weekend is the time to do my first TR into a class I actually LIKE. I'm playing a Wiz at the moment, and am hating this class. Why? Well, it's all to do with the blue bar.

First off, the pros of a Wiz are obvious:
- Great selection of spells
- Can change at any shrine or inn
- Great synergy with Rogue for trapping (my char is a 16/2 wiz/rog)

The cons:
- That **** blue bar. I can't maintain SP worth a ****, and the reason is that I don't have the experience to know how far to push what, when. Blow my SP now with a big nuke effort? Save em like Scrooge in case there's no shrine? Generally, I don't know. If you're a 10th lifer running through the same quest for the 532nd time, this might not be an issue.

Seems to me that a Wiz, Cleric, and maybe Bard have the same issue. Favoured Soul and Sorc probably less so. Arti? I dunno, never ran into any issues on mine, but maybe. No idea about Paladins.

Point is that the blue bar is seriously newb-unfriendly. Or at least it always has been to me.

Opinions?

Aes.

Both Wizards and Sorcs have access to great "Spell Like Abilities," aka SLAs. These SLAs function the same as real spells but they cost next to nothing and can benefit from Metamagic Feats without raising their cost. Utilize them to your full advantage to conserve SP. Archmages are practically nothing but SLAs, and Pale Masters get their negative energy bolts/blasts to use.

[Istaria1]

@Ryiah, Yes, ofc you need to be frugal til you know what might be round the next corner. In fairness, I think any MMO player runs this way, even a DDO first-lifer. I play that way as well! I don't go nuking happily til I have to stop and say "Urh...? But now I can't kill".... But that doesn't mean that even being frugal you can't run into a wall.

And the issue with blue-bar casters and walls is that the only solution is Mnemonic pots. Which are available only through quest rewards (I always pick them) or through the store. A melee or ranged char will NOT have this problem.

@djl, Yes, SLAs are amazing. Little bit of a long CD, but they're currently (apart from AOE like FW and Acid Rain) my main source of DPS. But, you know (under the old enhancement system) I went 17 levels without one. It's MUCH better now that the Enhancement trees are so much easier to read.

I stick to my stance here, a blue-bar caster is not a newbie character.

Aes.That'

PS: If I come across as hardas$ about this, it's because I am really hating my Wiz :P That's personal hehe

[Charononus]

And the issue with blue-bar casters and walls is that the only solution is Mnemonic pots. Which are available only through quest rewards (I always pick them) or through the store. A melee or ranged char will NOT have this problem.



Yup non blue bars just have issues self healing in a game that is switching to byoh.

[Ryiah]

A melee or ranged char will NOT have this problem.

As Charononus has stated, this game is shifting largely to requiring players to bring their own backup healing. The only times I've seen melees dying frequently as of late has been those melees without a blue bar and Rejuvenation Cocoon.

As for mnemonics being the only solution, there are two items in the game that give back a fair amount. Both are a pain to acquire. The first is the Mysterious Bauble from Weapon Shipment and the second is the Epic Ring of Spell Storing from the Desert. Both items mimic a major mnemonic pot with the bauble giving one use per rest and the ring giving three uses per rest.

[AzB]

One thing that might help is to drop the 2 rogue levels. I know it's all the rage to be a wiz/rogue, but it does come at a price. First off, your spells may not land as much, especially with a first lifer, because your DCs are already down how ever many levels of another class you take. This makes you cast another spell, wasting sp. Secondly, you lose the spell points you would gain from two more levels. I ran with a guildy a couple lives ago, me on my wiz and he on his wiz rogue. He got frustrated quickly because he got the good spells 2 levels later, the wraith form 2 levels later, no lich form at all since we were TR'ing, and his FoDs were totally unreliable, he had fewer sp, etc. Yep, he could get the traps, but generally speaking we had a rogue in the party, and in most cases the traps could be bypassed anyway. I'm not saying don't be a trapper, I'm just saying to be aware that you're 20% less effective as a wiz if you decide to do traps too.

The rest is simply strategy. Pace yourself, use your sp wisely. It's not that hard in most content as there are shrines if not frequently, at least about where you should be running out of sp. It's also nice to have a fall back, like an item that gets some sp back (concordant opp, twisted talisman, etc) for emergencies. Especially if you rely on your sp for self healing. Use your sp where they will do the most good. Lots of melees in the party? Buff 'em up. Use efficient AOEs for mobs and kite them through or in it. Don't use polar rays to blast the archers on the ledges if you can use a crossbow or just run past them. Etc. Some of it is experience, but most of it is simply pacing yourself and using some common sense. I see wizzes all the time the FoD a mob after the melee has knocked it down to almost nothing... that's a complete waste of sp. Let the melee kill it if he's not having trouble with it. FoD is best used on casters that can't be reached quickly, etc.

I've played a lot of blue bars and I've never really had too much problem with sp. Even everyone's favorite gripe about druid having a poor sp pool wasn't a problem. I just made sure I tanked out the pet and gave my druid some ability to melee. Toss an earthquake and storm of vengeance on large mobs and me and the wolf could polish off the survivors by hand. The wolf would grab aggro first giving me a chance to get the spells off, and away we went. Bard was easiest since all the spells are pure **** except for a couple of buffs. There was no need for sp items and such because I simply never used very much of the blue bar at all. Soloing slightly more so because of the need for fast healing a lot more often. But even then, you can cast most of the buffs and heals from scrolls and wands and save the blue bar if needed.

I think the wiz class would have a lot more dimension if we could scribe our own scrolls and wands had a more meaningful use in DDO. Right now, wands and scrolls are used for healing almost exclusively, and that's a shame. A high level wiz should be able to do some damage with wands on occasion instead of having to carry a sword or a crossbow. Even my bard with fully maxxed wand and scroll lines using a wand of blasting did very little damage... with poor saves and only ten charges to boot. It was marginally useful at 13th level, but by 18+ it was completely pointless.

[RedOrm]

That, and stack up on wands. No need to buy or select as end reward, but defibitely grab from chests and slot them in a quickbar to use. Be sure to crack every crate and barrel in sight, they often drop potions that will save you some mana.
This gets less usefull as you gain levels, but can certainly help at the start.
And if on a new quest, either as your party members for info, or read the ddo wiki before going in.
DDO wiki can also help with figuring out what you need to increase your mana pool (pearl of power X comes to mind), or increase the damage per spell (like the ring of elemental essences, but generic loot can be helpfull too), and lots of other usefull knowledge. Playing a wizard isn't that hardm it just requires some research.

Greetz,
Red Orm

[xXbikergirlXx]

I am also a new player and my wiz is heading for lvl 23, she is however my fourth character and I have probably benefited from the knowledge of what gear is out there to help that blue bar!! Having said that since U19 I am still coming to terms with all the new and 'improved?' gear thats available but my general approach is obtain anything and everything that increases your SP(i.e. gear, feats and enhancements0 also one of my main expenditures is mana pots from the plat AH., the cleric hires with divine vitality are also a must especially at lower lvls when you are learning what spells to use and how much they cost(SP wise that is). I'm currently lvl 21, with a lvl banked and my SP is just short of 2700, I am managing to complete epic quest(NOT elite lol) without running out of SP(i.e. using my stash of mana pots) and with only one hire(currently using lvl20 FVS mostly) without divine vitality. So it can be done and I have to say I thoroughly enjoy my wiz but I am also realistic in knowing what she can an cannot do 'Stand back and blow 'em up!!' is her moto. Face to face pummeling no way!!

[Charononus]

As Charononus has stated, this game is shifting largely to requiring players to bring their own backup healing. The only times I've seen melees dying frequently as of late has been those melees without a blue bar and Rejuvenation Cocoon.

As for mnemonics being the only solution, there are two items in the game that give back a fair amount. Both are a pain to acquire. The first is the Mysterious Bauble from Weapon Shipment and the second is the Epic Ring of Spell Storing from the Desert. Both items mimic a major mnemonic pot with the bauble giving one use per rest and the ring giving three uses per rest.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Mysterious_Bauble
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ring_of_Spell_Storing
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Ring_of_Spell_Storing
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Twisted_Talisman
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Twisted_Talisman
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Archivist%27s_Necklace
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Torc_of_Prince_Raiyum-de_II
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Halcyon_Boots
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Vile_Blasphemy
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Xachosian_Eardweller (for the larva)
http://ddowiki.com/page/Concordant_Opposition

and

Nether Orb - Orb: 2[1d6] +0, Cha/Int for Attack/Damage, Orb Bonus +8, random +5 spell focus (conjuration, enchantment, evocation, necromancy or transmutation), Spell Lore X (10%), Energy Siphon XII (a 60 temp SP proc on hit that can only proc once a minute), Red Augment Slot

I think that is every source of free sp in the game so there are more options than potions but you do have to take the time to farm them.

[Ykt]

my strategy is watch the blue bar of other arcanes and adapt accordingly.

This.

Use cheap spells/SLAs, wait until party members complain about your lack of casting, or carry a good melee weapon.

[Ryiah]

I think that is every source of free sp in the game so there are more options than potions but you do have to take the time to farm them.

I decided not to count those that gave small quantities or those that require you be hit by enemies. The first is only minimally useful and the second is not advisable in the higher difficulties.

[EllisDee37]

I'm just saying to be aware that you're 20% less effective as a wiz if you decide to do traps too.This sounds like an exaggeration to me

[Raithe]

This sounds like an exaggeration to me

Not an exaggeration, a complete misdirection. The correct statement was...

You are 50% less effective as a wizard than you would be if you had taken insightful reflexes and enough levels of monk or rogue to have evasion...

But it's to be expected from a playerbase that was complaining about bards, right after the developers decided to make Spellsong Vigor an area-of-effect cast.

:rolleyes:

[TheLegendOfAra]

My approach to casters;

Buff.
Throw Ice Storm/Fire Wall.
Run in and spam cleave, great cleave and trip.
Heal.
Dot the Red named.
Rinse and Repeat.

Is there a better way to play them?

[Azarddoze]

The best way to push efficiency to the limit is to learn how many mobs you can take at the same time while still keeping yourself safe. Being mobile is a big part of it. The bigger the threat, the faster you have to get rid of them. That applies, sometimes just direct damage aoe, sometimes dot aoe and sometimes both of them.

Since the mobs in one quest (and more) usually repeat themselves, you can easely calculate which spells (damage/SP wise) are the most efficient to get rid of them since the damage you deal is consistant.

Tip 1 to practice that technique is to run till red alert, keep moving around in a smart direction until everything get stacked up while you still keep your distance. Once they're all stacked up or close to each other, moving out of sight (if possible) is a smart choice to avoid having casters/archers targetting you while you deal with everything. From there, evaluate what spells will be needed to get rid of them. Sometimes it's just a maximized/empowered fireballs (or frost sphere, DBF, etc), sometimes it'll take more like acid rain + ice storm + a direct damage spell if you feel that they need to be taken out quickly.

Playing a caster is so much easier once you understand how to be effective at not taking damage.

Edit: Also there are some encounters where you just can't manage to get close. That's where long range spells shine. Cast them while moving backward. Those shouldn't be used with meta feats or you will run out of SP.

[EllisDee37]

Edit: Also there are some encounters where you just can't manage to get close. That's where long range spells shine. Cast them while moving backward. Those shouldn't be used with meta feats or you will run out of SP.From level 9 on maximized ray spells are my bread and butter. Well, those and one or more of ice storm, firewall, and acid rain. heh.

It helps that I efficient the maximize immediately and craft a trinket to do the same, reducing the cost of maximize from 25 sp to 12.

[phalaeo]

There is a learning curve with how to manage SP, but it isn't insurmountable, else nobody would play a caster.

Think of it this way-- most everything is "newb-unfriendly".... riding a bike, cooking, rollerskating, drawing.... you get the idea.

Work with these ideas in mind-

1. Know when to use metas, and when not to.

2. Know the right spells to use so you aren't wasting SP on things that are immune, or will likely save (Target Will saves on melee mobs, Reflex or Fort on caster mobs, Rogue mobs will generally make reflex saves, Cleric mobs will have decent Will saves...)

2b. Use efficient spells for the situation. Don't spam only one-hit damage spells on bosses, use a rotation of dots, SLAs and damage spells. If you're using ray spells to pull mobs, un-meta them. You can set up multiple spells with different metas applied-- right click on the spell (once it's on your hotbar)... this will allow you to set up your metas for that individual hotbar cell. Lots of people will have two or three "copies" of a single spell (such as... hmm... Polar Ray)- one with only Maximize, one with Maximize and Empower, and then possibly a third that is Maximized, Empowered and Heightened.

3. Use tactics (Group up large numbers of mobs in AoE spells, learn which mobs stand in one place (casters, ranged) and which mobs kite well (non-ranged melee)

4. Use the heck out of any SLAs you may get

5. Try to get the best gear you can afford (Highest spell power, largest benefit to (spell school) DC, etc.

6. Farm out "SP clickies" such as Mysterious Bauble, Twisted Talisman, Ring of Spell Storing, etc.

7. Don't overbuff. If you're always passing out GH, Blur, and everything under the sun to everyone in your party and starting out with 2/3 of your SP, stoppit! Let people ask for what they need- many folks will be able to buff themselves.

[Azarddoze]

From level 9 on maximized ray spells are my bread and butter. Well, those and one or more of ice storm, firewall, and acid rain. heh.

It helps that I efficient the maximize immediately and craft a trinket to do the same, reducing the cost of maximize from 25 sp to 12.

Agreed. That's one way to do it, just not how I roll my casters. I always opt for as much spell power and crits as possible. DPS in general. Then defense.

I guess it might end up about the same, while your way might be a bit better to take care of individual mob even faster but must be a bit more SP-heavy as well (maybe not but it would be easy to come up with the maths during a quest anyway). Seems like a good strategy if you can substain it and since you're saying so, i'm pretty sure it's just as effective.


Edit: This is not related to this quote but learning to aim with direct damage aoe is really helpful. Being able to right-click + jump and land an aoe spells right in the middle of stuff you're kitting or that are just stacked can be a life saver.

[bsquishwizzy]

Hi all,

Been running through options for my first TR. I am level 18.5 at the moment, and am hoping that this weekend is the time to do my first TR into a class I actually LIKE. I'm playing a Wiz at the moment, and am hating this class. Why? Well, it's all to do with the blue bar.

First off, the pros of a Wiz are obvious:
- Great selection of spells
- Can change at any shrine or inn
- Great synergy with Rogue for trapping (my char is a 16/2 wiz/rog)

The cons:
- That **** blue bar. I can't maintain SP worth a ****, and the reason is that I don't have the experience to know how far to push what, when. Blow my SP now with a big nuke effort? Save em like Scrooge in case there's no shrine? Generally, I don't know. If you're a 10th lifer running through the same quest for the 532nd time, this might not be an issue.

Seems to me that a Wiz, Cleric, and maybe Bard have the same issue. Favoured Soul and Sorc probably less so. Arti? I dunno, never ran into any issues on mine, but maybe. No idea about Paladins.

Point is that the blue bar is seriously newb-unfriendly. Or at least it always has been to me.

Opinions?

Aes.

There are three things you can use to save blue bar. The first is to have something else grab agro around it. If you are in a PUG, let the fighters pull agro on them. If you are solo, use a summon.

Once agro is grabbed, drop a mass CC spell like Hold Monster. Follow it up with an AoE spell like Wall of Fire or Ice Storm. Then spam SLAs into the captured group.

The alternative if you are in a PUG is to just do CC and let the melees do the rest. Better to have you get a zero kill count because you're saving blue bar for DoTs on as boss than to instakill everything before they get to it, and have nothing when you get to the boss fight.

If you are a PM with self-healing, throw on stone skin, make sure your death auras are going, gather up mobs on you and do Wail of the Banshee or Circle of Death on them. However, make sure you can handle this aggressive maneuver before making it a tactic.

The key is to kill as much as you can with as few spells possible.

[Charononus]

I decided not to count those that gave small quantities or those that require you be hit by enemies. The first is only minimally useful and the second is not advisable in the higher difficulties.

Well I don't advise shield and torc up either but even the small stuff adds up, you can swap to the archivist necklace after buffing up for about 50 free sp (I seem to average 24 per click), a talisman with death aura going is 50 free sp iirc with one charge regen per shrine, 150 total but you only get one back per rest, etc. Even just having con-op on lately mostly for the extra sp in ee's still I notice that while displaced and incorp I see some blue numbers floating from the occassional hit. It's not much but it's an every little bit adds to it if you can work it into your gear type situation. To me those little sp bumps are like melee toons gearing for an extra 2 or 3 pts per swing, individually each one isn't much but add them all together and it adds up.

[Drwaz99]

My approach to casters;

Buff.
Throw Ice Storm/Fire Wall.
Run in and spam cleave, great cleave and trip.
Heal.
Dot the Red named.
Rinse and Repeat.

Is there a better way to play them?

Nub.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

- That **** blue bar. I can't maintain SP worth a ****, and the reason is that I don't have the experience to know how far to push what, when. Blow my SP now with a big nuke effort? Save em like Scrooge in case there's no shrine? Generally, I don't know. If you're a 10th lifer running through the same quest for the 532nd time, this might not be an issue.


Be stingy. Scroll everything you can. Let the rest of party get aggro. Abuse your SLA. Dancing globe with a good DC in a party is cheaper than spamming polar rays or whatever. Choose your battles- I don't know how invis is working now, but invis scrolls and sneaking save on SP. Know which CC and instakill spells will work on which mobs. Dots, not nukes.

Remember that if sorcs are the barbarians of casters, wizards are the ninjas. Play smart.

[droid327]

Here's a tip that might help - you can set your spells on your hotbar to follow an "always on/never on/default" behavior for each metamagic toggle (you probably know that). You can have multiple copies of the same spell on your hotbar though, with different meta settings.

So for SLAs, you can just leave them always on...but for regular spells, like Acid Rain, you can have a fully-meta and a non-meta version on your hotbar, so you can have both immediately at your disposal without having to mess with toggling stuff. You can then learn, mob by mob, which ones you need a "full meta" blast and which ones you can just hit with a cheapie version.

Or, another example, if you have self-heals, you can have a Quicken/Emp/Maxed version for in-combat use, and a non-meta version for out-of-combat heals, when you can afford to wait and cast it again if you need more.

[AzB]

Not an exaggeration, a complete misdirection. The correct statement was...

You are 50% less effective as a wizard than you would be if you had taken insightful reflexes and enough levels of monk or rogue to have evasion...



Wow, talk about exaggeration.

Is evasion nice? Sure. Is it worth giving up what you give up to have it? It may not be. I simply pointed out what you give up to have evasion and do traps. Let folks make up their own minds based on how they want to play. Evasion is not required to play a caster well. It just takes a little different strategy.

And fwiw, condescension has no room in adult discussion. Everyone that disagrees with you is not automatically stupid.

There's a lot of good, constructive advice in this thread. Hopefully some of it helps the op.

[EllisDee37]

I simply pointed out what you give up to have evasion and do traps.Not really. An evasion splash loses you 1 DC and 2 spell pen. That's hardly 20% of your power.

[AzB]

Not really. An evasion splash loses you 1 DC and 2 spell pen. That's hardly 20% of your power.

And some sp, which is what the op was specifically talking about. Probably not quite 20% as most folks have a 200sp item by that point, even on a first life. But it still makes it almost 18%.

I also mentioned what my guildy saw when running his rogue splashed wiz with my pure wiz during a TR train. He got self healing forms 2 levels later, or not at all in the case of lich. The spells also came later, and that was frustrating for him. While I was running around insta killing, he didn't have the spells available for 2 more levels. And then when he did get them, they didn't land as reliably. Yes, he was able to get traps, but most nights we had at least one other trapper running with us, and he was better at traps than the wiz as well.

Now if you're building strictly for epics, this makes no difference. This is strictly a problem at heroic levels. You can make almost anything work with the right EDs, so this is a moot point for epic levels.

[Istaria1]

Thanks, all of you, for all of the advice. There's alot here for me to absorb but for sure this will help immensely!

I love these forums :)

Aes.

[Daemoneyes]

And some sp, which is what the op was specifically talking about. Probably not quite 20% as most folks have a 200sp item by that point, even on a first life. But it still makes it almost 18%.

I also mentioned what my guildy saw when running his rogue splashed wiz with my pure wiz during a TR train. He got self healing forms 2 levels later, or not at all in the case of lich. The spells also came later, and that was frustrating for him. While I was running around insta killing, he didn't have the spells available for 2 more levels. And then when he did get them, they didn't land as reliably. Yes, he was able to get traps, but most nights we had at least one other trapper running with us, and he was better at traps than the wiz as well.

Now if you're building strictly for epics, this makes no difference. This is strictly a problem at heroic levels. You can make almost anything work with the right EDs, so this is a moot point for epic levels.

sp difference means nothing
and 1 DC more doesnt let your spells land reliable
only big difference is getting shrouds and spells earlier (and more highlvl spells)

If you only bruteforce and never have problems with traps, sure then you wont need or want a splash.
But if you go slower (disabling instead of bruteforcing traps) and use stealth, then you will not need the missing stuff.

Also i cant see how anyone could be better at traps then a wizrogue, items are the same for all of us and i never needed skillbuffs to get a trap (other then the darn trap in durks)

And if you knew that you have a trapper most of the time, then why not splash monk instead of rogue?

[Raithe]

And some sp, which is what the op was specifically talking about. Probably not quite 20% as most folks have a 200sp item by that point, even on a first life. But it still makes it almost 18%.


The difference between level 18 and level 20, according to the wiki (http://ddowiki.com/page/Wizard), is 195 spell points, and a wizard has 1205 total from it's class. Even if you have 10 INT and no gear, it's not 20% of your spell pool. Some wizards currently have ~3600 spell points at cap, others are barely topping 2000. I think I may need to introduce you to DDO and it's system of massive power creep.

If you are talking level 4, then having 2 levels of rogue at that point will make you a level 2 wizard. You would still only have first level spells. Even in that scenario, however, I wouldn't call such a character 20% less effective as a wizard. You'll still be able to wield wands and scrolls as if you were a 4th level wizard, and at low levels that is significant, especially when you have evasion and shield as defences.

I assure you that I am only condescending to those who are being condescending without cause, just ego. So hi pot, I'm kettle...

[jalont]

Hi all,

Been running through options for my first TR. I am level 18.5 at the moment, and am hoping that this weekend is the time to do my first TR into a class I actually LIKE. I'm playing a Wiz at the moment, and am hating this class. Why? Well, it's all to do with the blue bar.

First off, the pros of a Wiz are obvious:
- Great selection of spells
- Can change at any shrine or inn
- Great synergy with Rogue for trapping (my char is a 16/2 wiz/rog)

The cons:
- That **** blue bar. I can't maintain SP worth a ****, and the reason is that I don't have the experience to know how far to push what, when. Blow my SP now with a big nuke effort? Save em like Scrooge in case there's no shrine? Generally, I don't know. If you're a 10th lifer running through the same quest for the 532nd time, this might not be an issue.

Seems to me that a Wiz, Cleric, and maybe Bard have the same issue. Favoured Soul and Sorc probably less so. Arti? I dunno, never ran into any issues on mine, but maybe. No idea about Paladins.

Point is that the blue bar is seriously newb-unfriendly. Or at least it always has been to me.

Opinions?

Aes.

Running a caster successfully and not blowing all your SP is easy if you keep some things in mind.

1.) not everything in a dungeon needs to die. Archers, for instance, rarely, if ever, follow you. No reason to kill them unless you HAVE to.

2.) You never use a spell to kill one enemy unless he's a boss. You gather as many as you can up, and then use one or two aoe spells to kill the group. Any stragglers, leave them. They will either stop following you or can follow you until you gather up the next big mob.

3.) Use your freely meta'd SLAs. A wizard can now take SLAs from both trees. This will save you a lot of SP.

4.) There are still some quests that will be difficult. I can't solo Running With The Devils on Elite without drinking a pot. The shrine is just too far, and I almost always run out of xp in the hallway before it.

[DanteEnFuego]

Running a caster successfully and not blowing all your SP is easy if you keep some things in mind.

1.) not everything in a dungeon needs to die.

This, for all classes, is one of my favorite pieces of advice...

[azrael4h]

One thing that might help is to drop the 2 rogue levels. I know it's all the rage to be a wiz/rogue, but it does come at a price. First off, your spells may not land as much, especially with a first lifer, because your DCs are already down how ever many levels of another class you take. This makes you cast another spell, wasting sp. Secondly, you lose the spell points you would gain from two more levels. I ran with a guildy a couple lives ago, me on my wiz and he on his wiz rogue. He got frustrated quickly because he got the good spells 2 levels later, the wraith form 2 levels later, no lich form at all since we were TR'ing, and his FoDs were totally unreliable, he had fewer sp, etc. Yep, he could get the traps, but generally speaking we had a rogue in the party, and in most cases the traps could be bypassed anyway. I'm not saying don't be a trapper, I'm just saying to be aware that you're 20% less effective as a wiz if you decide to do traps too.

First off, you don't lose any DCs at all when taking two Rogue levels. You lose 2 spell pen. So if your "guildy"'s FoD was unreliable due to saves, there was something else at work other than a splash. More than likely, you forgot to take Necro focus feats and gear. While 2 Spell pen can hurt a lot, it's also situational; not every critter has spell resistance to break. Drow, yes. Humans, nope.

Second off, You're only losing maybe 200sp. My current test Wizard has 1800 at level 18, and she's undergeared. She could have over 2k. My real one will have much more due to gear. With the SLAs, and knowing the right spells to use, I rarely need more. Usually only when running stuff I'm unfamiliar with, such as the new quests that just came out, and running on elite, which isn't what new players should do since they lack experience.

Third off, a splash only loses Lich if you immediately TR at 20. There is 8 full levels to go, even if it's only levels in Commoner. Some people play the whole game, not part of it.

Forth, with evasion and Insightful Reflexes, that Wiz/Rogue will survive in caster-heavy environments quite easily, ignoring many if not most of the AoE spells tossed at them. Pure Wiz, even with great reflex saves, will still be taking half damage, which on higher difficulties can still bring them down quickly. Especially given the habit of DDO to eat spells, I never count on my burst getting through.

Fifth, with UMD alone, you can back up heal with scrolls, raise the dead Cleric, Harm yourself, and use old Race/alignment Restricted gear you have laying around much more easily. This versatility offsets the relatively minor loss in offense.

TL/DR: If you are 20% less effective as a Wizard due to a loss of 1 feat and 2 spell pen, the issue isn't with the 2 level splash.

In the OP's case, the Rogue splash has nothing to do with his difficulties. It's, plain and simple, player skill and experience. This will change over time, if he sticks with leveling casters. Wizards are not a first-timer-friendly class. Others have already said what will help, but the biggest help will to be to keep playing, keep trying to learn, and don't give up.

[Toro12]

Just getting my rogue splashed wizard to 20 I can offer a bit of advice. Not saying I'm an expert at SP management but I've learned a couple things along the way.

First and foremost the biggest problem I had in adapting was learning to trust your AoE spells. When you drop that icestorm/firewall/acidrain let it do its work. I used to think ohh I have all these cheap force SLAs that I'm fully speced out for let me keep spamming my chain missile/magic missile while I kite.
DONt.
That is wasting SP. let your AoE work. Sure they are cheap casts but your using SP you don't have to trust your AoE. Sure it takes more time to kill the room/pack you gathered but less than trying to kill an end boss on echos with magic missile SLAs.

Second Force SLAs are cheap but weak. At lower levels they will 1 or 2 shot mobs with 10SP chain SLA and 2SP MM SLA. At higher levels 5 and 6 MMs and 3-4CMs is more SP than 1 maximized DBF or a non meta meteor swarm.

3rd
I got in the habit of always dropping a max,emp firewall when ever I would cast it. Sure all the mobs die but I'd watch that FW burn for a long while after everything was dead.

See that burn? That's wasted spell points as sure as leaving the light on in the kitchen after your done getting your late night snack is running up your electric bill.

Try a non MAXed or EMPed (or both) firewall. Kite longer anything still left that you can finish with a cheap SLA. If you find you can't finish with a cheap SLA consider upping one of the metas.
-------

Out of SP just as you see the shrine? Push on a little more and play the cautious pull one mob and pewees down with SLAs on echos. Then go back to the shrine as your buffs burn off. Recasting buffs that have 10 min left are wasted SP.

[EllisDee37]

While leveling, I could probably just non-meta'd frost lance + scorching ray my way through an entire dungeon on echoes alone with careful pulling. They both two- or three-shot most mobs well into the teens.