Having Trouble with Sacred Defender Tree

[FranOhmsford]

OK...So EnochPagett - Paladin 18/Ftr 2 {2nd Life - 1st Life FvS} currently at Lvl 22 has just redone his enhancements.

And I've noticed something I find to be exceedingly strange Lore Wise:

Sacred Defender Tree is IMPOSSIBLE to MAX!

It costs 82 AP to get everything in the Tree {NOT counting the Capstone!}.

Devs? How does this make sense?

Now I know people are going to say that I'm a fool to try maxing Sacred Defender anyway - Heck I've already had part of that conversation in-game BUT:
I simply can't understand why a Prestige Line would cost MORE than it's possible to have?

In Fact I'll go so far as to say that I really don't think that ANY Tree should cost More than 60AP to Max out!

This way it's the other stuff people choose to take that separates them from each other.



Look - Enoch's Human so after removing the few AP I'd put into Kensai and ALL of the AP I'd put into Racial I ended up putting 4pts back into Racial - Skill Boost, Human Versatility Con and AC Boost {5 Pts Cheaper than the Defender AC Boost Line and equal to Tier 2 of that line.}.
I also grabbed Human Imp Recovery I


Now on to my issue with making this character work:

Where do I STOP with Sacred Defender?

Absolutely Everything Bar the Boosts seems to be a MUST!

Which Abilities can I safely leave at Tier 2?
Which Abilities are weaker than they appear to be?

How the Heck do I figure out what each ability actually gives when I can't check them before accepting?
Yes this is now another call for FREE Enhancement Respecs for a couple of weeks at least so we can get used to the New System!
Please Devs?

Hey - Looks like No matter what I'm Not going to be taking a SINGLE Enhancement from Kensai {and Stalwart's a Wash anyway for a Sacred Pally}.
So should I break out the +20 Lesser Heart and Lose the Two Fighter Lvls / Two Feats?

And just how on Earth do I take enough points out of Sacred Defender to be able to get Divine Sacrifice/Exalted Smite and/or Human Imp Recovery III/GH?

[Full_Bleed]

OK...So EnochPagett - Paladin 18/Ftr 2 {2nd Life - 1st Life FvS} currently at Lvl 22 has just redone his enhancements.

And I've noticed something I find to be exceedingly strange Lore Wise:

Sacred Defender Tree is IMPOSSIBLE to MAX!

It costs 82 AP to get everything in the Tree {NOT counting the Capstone!}.

Devs? How does this make sense?

Now I know people are going to say that I'm a fool to try maxing Sacred Defender anyway - Heck I've already had part of that conversation in-game BUT:
I simply can't understand why a Prestige Line would cost MORE than it's possible to have?

In Fact I'll go so far as to say that I really don't think that ANY Tree should cost More than 60AP to Max out!

This way it's the other stuff people choose to take that separates them from each other.



Look - Enoch's Human so after removing the few AP I'd put into Kensai and ALL of the AP I'd put into Racial I ended up putting 4pts back into Racial - Skill Boost, Human Versatility Con and AC Boost {5 Pts Cheaper than the Defender AC Boost Line and equal to Tier 2 of that line.}.
I also grabbed Human Imp Recovery I


Now on to my issue with making this character work:

Where do I STOP with Sacred Defender?

Absolutely Everything Bar the Boosts seems to be a MUST!

Which Abilities can I safely leave at Tier 2?
Which Abilities are weaker than they appear to be?

How the Heck do I figure out what each ability actually gives when I can't check them before accepting?
Yes this is now another call for FREE Enhancement Respecs for a couple of weeks at least so we can get used to the New System!
Please Devs?

Hey - Looks like No matter what I'm Not going to be taking a SINGLE Enhancement from Kensai {and Stalwart's a Wash anyway for a Sacred Pally}.
So should I break out the +20 Lesser Heart and Lose the Two Fighter Lvls / Two Feats?

And just how on Earth do I take enough points out of Sacred Defender to be able to get Divine Sacrifice/Exalted Smite and/or Human Imp Recovery III/GH?

Hoping to see some good responses to some of your issues above. My GF's DOS Paladin seems to have been hit pretty hard attempting to focus on the Sacred Defender tree. Even after splashing some of the Chalice abilities to get exalted smite (which is hitting for so much less than she used to, even with all the CHA buffs she can get from Drow/Chalice/Defender that I think she might just abandon the whole smite line anyway at this point... they are really pretty pathetic.)

[FranOhmsford]

Hoping to see some good responses to some of your issues above. My GF's DOS Paladin seems to have been hit pretty hard attempting to focus on the Sacred Defender tree. Even after splashing some of the Chalice abilities to get exalted smite (which is hitting for so much less than she used to, even with all the CHA buffs she can get from Drow/Chalice/Defender that I think she might just abandon the whole smite line anyway at this point... they are really pretty pathetic.)

My issue isn't so much the Smites - I rarely use them anyway.
BUT Divine Sacrifice is Tier IV Chalice/HotD!
It should be Tier I!
OR
Available in the Defender Tree too!

To get to Divine Sac {and Exalted Smite for that matter} I need to put 20+ Pts into a Tree that isn't my Main!

I have to FIND {Somehow!} 20+ Pts from Sacred Defender {A Tree that costs more than you can actually get!} as well as Not having Anything whatsoever invested in my Racial Enhancements!

I'll say again that I hope this isn't WAI and The Devs come back and Reduce the AP Requirements for Sacred Defender {check other trees while you're at it too pls Devs}.

60 AP to Max a Tree is Fair
82 before Capstone is Ridiculous!

Oh and DON'T just move the AP to the Racial Trees!
They're fine {maybe slightly on the high side BUT Fine} as is!

[Ralmeth]

My issue isn't so much the Smites - I rarely use them anyway.
BUT Divine Sacrifice is Tier IV Chalice/HotD!
It should be Tier I!
OR
Available in the Defender Tree too!

To get to Divine Sac {and Exalted Smite for that matter} I need to put 20+ Pts into a Tree that isn't my Main!

I have to FIND {Somehow!} 20+ Pts from Sacred Defender {A Tree that costs more than you can actually get!} as well as Not having Anything whatsoever invested in my Racial Enhancements!

I'll say again that I hope this isn't WAI and The Devs come back and Reduce the AP Requirements for Sacred Defender {check other trees while you're at it too pls Devs}.

60 AP to Max a Tree is Fair
82 before Capstone is Ridiculous!

Oh and DON'T just move the AP to the Racial Trees!
They're fine {maybe slightly on the high side BUT Fine} as is!

I agree with you that it's kind of a weird design. I have respecced my enhancements numerous times to try things out since the enhancement pass and I think I'm up to about a 12k or so respec fee (pretty ridiculous they don't make respecs free for a while).

Anyways, there are some enhancements which aren't that great, or are questionable how much you want to take. Notably:
-Item Defense: Waste of APs, IMHO
-Instinctive Defense: A nice perk of an enhancement, but not worth the APs
-Boosts: Just doesn't last long enough to matter. Perhaps 1 point into saves boost so you can run through a trap.
-Eternal Defender: What a horrible capstone. In epic levels, when you die, how often do you die with hit points between -10 and -50?
-Sacred Armor and Shield Mastery: Don't take these for the AC bonus, but instead for the increase to max dex bonus so you can max out your dodge bonus. Only take enough that you need.
-Spellshield Aura: Are you using a spell resistance item? Is the bonus making a noticeable difference for you? I'm in the middle of a TR, so I haven't had a chance to test this yet at high level. I'm intrigued to see if you can get spell resistance to a noticeable level, but still a bit skeptical.

Just like the old enhancement system, you still have to really pick and choose which enhancements are the winners and which ones you would be better off spending elsewhere. The way things are currently designed I would highly encourage you or any other Defender out there to put some points into the Knight tree to pick up some DPS boosts.

[HallowedOne]

I was gonna reply that "If such thinng happens on other class trees ... then there is a problem" , but I remembered I got almost everything I wanted on my sorc, spending around ~15-20 on human, and my rogue got tha sexy parts of assassin easily, so I think there might be indeed some problems on AP costs.

[elraido]

I agree. There are all sorts of little things that just seem off. When I was respecing out my casters, I didn't even come close to using all the ability points in their respective trees. With the Paladin, I am forced to take some from each tree to even come close to how they were before.

Ral, normally I agree with you, but this one time I don't. Eternal Defender is a fairly amazing ability, from what I have experienced from it. On Burne, I can hit -59 hp before I die. From the point I hit -1 to that -59, I get an auto healing boost that hits me for over 600 hp. I don't want to say I am unkillable, but it certainly helps out. Not to mention it currently doesn't use turn undead attempts for it to activate. :p

[Ralmeth]

I agree. There are all sorts of little things that just seem off. When I was respecing out my casters, I didn't even come close to using all the ability points in their respective trees. With the Paladin, I am forced to take some from each tree to even come close to how they were before.

Ral, normally I agree with you, but this one time I don't. Eternal Defender is a fairly amazing ability, from what I have experienced from it. On Burne, I can hit -59 hp before I die. From the point I hit -1 to that -59, I get an auto healing boost that hits me for over 600 hp. I don't want to say I am unkillable, but it certainly helps out. Not to mention it currently doesn't use turn undead attempts for it to activate. :p

That's interesting feedback! Thanks Elraido:) I'm in the middle of TRing my Pally Tank (up to level 15, but 2X TR so it's slow going), so I won't have a chance to play test the Defender Capstone for a bit, but on paper it doesn't sound that good. That is interesting you're finding it helpful, and I may consider picking it up, coming from you:)

[bsquishwizzy]

OK...So EnochPagett - Paladin 18/Ftr 2 {2nd Life - 1st Life FvS} currently at Lvl 22 has just redone his enhancements.

And I've noticed something I find to be exceedingly strange Lore Wise:

Sacred Defender Tree is IMPOSSIBLE to MAX!

It costs 82 AP to get everything in the Tree {NOT counting the Capstone!}.

Devs? How does this make sense?

Now I know people are going to say that I'm a fool to try maxing Sacred Defender anyway - Heck I've already had part of that conversation in-game BUT:
I simply can't understand why a Prestige Line would cost MORE than it's possible to have?

In Fact I'll go so far as to say that I really don't think that ANY Tree should cost More than 60AP to Max out!

This way it's the other stuff people choose to take that separates them from each other.



Look - Enoch's Human so after removing the few AP I'd put into Kensai and ALL of the AP I'd put into Racial I ended up putting 4pts back into Racial - Skill Boost, Human Versatility Con and AC Boost {5 Pts Cheaper than the Defender AC Boost Line and equal to Tier 2 of that line.}.
I also grabbed Human Imp Recovery I


Now on to my issue with making this character work:

Where do I STOP with Sacred Defender?

Absolutely Everything Bar the Boosts seems to be a MUST!

Which Abilities can I safely leave at Tier 2?
Which Abilities are weaker than they appear to be?

How the Heck do I figure out what each ability actually gives when I can't check them before accepting?
Yes this is now another call for FREE Enhancement Respecs for a couple of weeks at least so we can get used to the New System!
Please Devs?

Hey - Looks like No matter what I'm Not going to be taking a SINGLE Enhancement from Kensai {and Stalwart's a Wash anyway for a Sacred Pally}.
So should I break out the +20 Lesser Heart and Lose the Two Fighter Lvls / Two Feats?

And just how on Earth do I take enough points out of Sacred Defender to be able to get Divine Sacrifice/Exalted Smite and/or Human Imp Recovery III/GH?

Seriously, I didn't max my trees, and I stayed pure.

I maybe put 1 rank into item defense, and the one where you get 5% PRR blocking while knocked down, and I skipped the auras. I don't see people calling for that at all. That game me lots of points to purchase 20% healing amp or maybe get you a few extra smites if you stay pure pallly.

With the feats I was able to get THF, Improved Critical, and Shield Mastery.

Not saying its great, but it is at present workable.

[FranOhmsford]

Seriously, I didn't max my trees, and I stayed pure.

I maybe put 1 rank into item defense, and the one where you get 5% PRR blocking while knocked down, and I skipped the auras. I don't see people calling for that at all. That game me lots of points to purchase 20% healing amp or maybe get you a few extra smites if you stay pure pallly.

With the feats I was able to get THF, Improved Critical, and Shield Mastery.

Not saying its great, but it is at present workable.

What are you talking about Feats for?

This is about the Enhancement Change NOT Feats!

OK So I mentioned the Two Bonus Feats from Fighter Levels that I have at the moment and whether I should accept losing them and go Pure Pally - I personally think that Pallys are extremely Feat Starved BUT that's not really the issue here but an aside.


You say you ignored the Auras?
So
You Ignored HP, PRR, Threat Gen, Saves, 6 Con, 6 Str?
Wow!

I respecced him - Dropping the Armour and Shield lines so I could put points into KotC for Divine Sac/Exalted Smite - He is No longer even close to being a Tank!

Yes you can ignore the likes of Item Defense - Basically all this does is save you some Plat - 3 AP total!
You can ignore the Shield Bashing line if UNLIKE ME you DIDN'T take the Feat!
The AC and Saves Boosts are Bonuses compared to the Human Boosts but cost 5 AP more to max out so too costly for what they give.
BUT this still leaves you putting an awful lot of points into Sacred Defender!


82AP is Ridiculous!
It's Silly to have a Tree cost more than it's actually possible to earn!
And that's NOT Counting the Capstone!

Sacred Defender however is a "Self Contained Prestige"
It does what it says on the Tin if you max it out {as much as you can of course!}.

Unfortunately that does mean you're specializing a bit too far as you lose ALL the Dmg Enhancements that a Pally used to get no matter what it's Prestige!

Taking those Dmg Enhancements now means losing viability as a Tank {Yes I know - Rarely needed and then only in the Hardest Content in the game BUT when Needed I don't want to be the guy who says "Sorry Guys My Tank Can't Tank"}.

Heck I may not play that content for another 3/4 years yet BUT the game needs to be balanced Now and Always NOT possibly in 3 Years time!

[ReaperAlexEU]

i approached this conundrum by matching my pre-update stats on my S&B paly. by being very strict with myself i actually came out of it with almost identical stats and 13 AP spare for perks. so i matched my AC, PRR and healing amp then managed to raise my divine sacrifice and exalted smite up to top tier and max out harboured by light.

most important parts i skimped on was any % bonus to shield AC (because a % bonus of a small number has less worth) and the spell resistance bonus. i also ignored the item defence and helpless enhancements. i did take the cap stone as i do find i can get whittled to death rather than 1-shotted making it a nice perk, with my healing amp it hits for 450.

i'm quite happy with how things turned out as the sacred defender tree was even more expensive on the 2nd pass on lama. they dropped it back quite a bit for final release which made it much easier to match my old tank.

[FranOhmsford]

i approached this conundrum by matching my pre-update stats on my S&B paly. by being very strict with myself i actually came out of it with almost identical stats and 13 AP spare for perks. so i matched my AC, PRR and healing amp then managed to raise my divine sacrifice and exalted smite up to top tier and max out harboured by light.

most important parts i skimped on was any % bonus to shield AC (because a % bonus of a small number has less worth) and the spell resistance bonus. i also ignored the item defence and helpless enhancements. i did take the cap stone as i do find i can get whittled to death rather than 1-shotted making it a nice perk, with my healing amp it hits for 450.

i'm quite happy with how things turned out as the sacred defender tree was even more expensive on the 2nd pass on lama. they dropped it back quite a bit for final release which made it much easier to match my old tank.

For Humans what about Human Imp Recovery?
You can also add:
-Human Fighting Style Line
-Heroism/GH
-3-4 Core Abilities incl Stat Boosts.

And other races have nice options too.


Sacred Defender costing so much on it's own isn't the whole issue.
When you know that you've gotta find 20+ Points for Kotc/HotD just to get to Exalted Smite/Divine Sac you're removing the weaker parts of Sacred Defender quickly THEN in a bind already as you look for other stuff to lose.

Add Racials in and Ouch!

A Pally/Monk, Pally/Cleric or Pally/Ftr will have even more pain trying to fit what's needed in.

Hey my guy IS a Pally/Ftr and I've took ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from Stalwart or Kensai!

The Two Fighter Levels are now strictly for the Feats alone!


SD is Exceedingly Expensive {That it was even more expensive on Lamannia I am stunned at - I can't play Lamannia as Laptop doesn't like it}.

We get 80 AP at Lvl 20
Sacred Defender costs 82 before you add the Capstone which I assume is 1 AP same as every other Core ability but don't know for sure.

I believe that NO Tree should cost more than 60 AP to Max every enhancement in said Prestige.
Racials should max out at 30 AP
This way you could max your main prestige then look at what you can take from alternate trees + Racial to Customize your Character.
Possibly you'd still drop stuff from your MAIN Tree to get more from elsewhere BUT it would be a CHOICE rather than Mandatory!

An easy fix would be to make Core abilities of all Trees FREE once an AP target in that Tree is Hit.
Removing 5 AP from the cost of each Tree.


OR Possibly the Devs could give us 10 more AP upon hitting Lvl 24 and another 10 on hitting 28 +5 at 30!
DON'T ADD IN MORE ENHANCEMENTS - Just give us the AP to spend on what's already there!

[Inoukchuk]

For Humans what about Human Imp Recovery?
You can also add:
-Human Fighting Style Line
-Heroism/GH
-3-4 Core Abilities incl Stat Boosts.

And other races have nice options too.


Sacred Defender costing so much on it's own isn't the whole issue.
When you know that you've gotta find 20+ Points for Kotc/HotD just to get to Exalted Smite/Divine Sac you're removing the weaker parts of Sacred Defender quickly THEN in a bind already as you look for other stuff to lose.

Add Racials in and Ouch!

A Pally/Monk, Pally/Cleric or Pally/Ftr will have even more pain trying to fit what's needed in.

Hey my guy IS a Pally/Ftr and I've took ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from Stalwart or Kensai!

The Two Fighter Levels are now strictly for the Feats alone!


SD is Exceedingly Expensive {That it was even more expensive on Lamannia I am stunned at - I can't play Lamannia as Laptop doesn't like it}.

We get 80 AP at Lvl 20
Sacred Defender costs 82 before you add the Capstone which I assume is 1 AP same as every other Core ability but don't know for sure.

I believe that NO Tree should cost more than 60 AP to Max every enhancement in said Prestige.
Racials should max out at 30 AP
This way you could max your main prestige then look at what you can take from alternate trees + Racial to Customize your Character.
Possibly you'd still drop stuff from your MAIN Tree to get more from elsewhere BUT it would be a CHOICE rather than Mandatory!

An easy fix would be to make Core abilities of all Trees FREE once an AP target in that Tree is Hit.
Removing 5 AP from the cost of each Tree.


OR Possibly the Devs could give us 10 more AP upon hitting Lvl 24 and another 10 on hitting 28 +5 at 30!
DON'T ADD IN MORE ENHANCEMENTS - Just give us the AP to spend on what's already there!

Agreed. If I'm not mistaken (old APs no longer in wiki) it now costs 37 AP to get what we used to get for 8 (and I don't recall any conversations EVER saying paladins were over powered):
1 - sacred defense
3 - improved defense (PRR)
3 - improved defense (threat)
3 - improved defense (saves)
3 - greater defense (con)
3 - greater defense (str)
3 - greater defense (20% HP)
6 - reinforced defense (armor 50%)
6 - reinforced defense (shield 50%)
3 - shield mastery
3 - armor mastery

If I recall all this and maybe more were encompassed in DoS III and stance from DoS III. Sure, there were pre-reqs, but the pre-reqs were useful and are still in the tree. AND no you have to use a shield to get most benefits.

As for what to take and what to drop... Well, personally mine is monk splashed, so no capstone. I am working under the assumption (probably accurate) that in epics AC is more useless than ever, so I'm skipping all the AC enhancements in favor of damage. So far I have my list paired down to this:

Sacred Defender: 39
1 - Holy Bastion
1 - Divine Righteousness
1 - Sacred Defense
1 - Redemption
1 - Glorious Stand

3 - Extra LOH
3 - Imp Sacred Defense (Saves)
3 - Imp Sacred Defense (PRR)
2 - Defense Boost (filler to get to 30)
3 - Resistance Aura
3 - Greater Sacred Def (str)
4 - Charisma +2
3 - Greater Sacred Def (HP)
1 - Swift Defense
3 - Greater Sacred Def (con)
6 - Harbored by Light

KotC: 34
3 - Slayer of Evil III
2 - Courage of Heaven II
3 - Extra Smite III (filler to meet progression)
1 - Extra Turning I (filler to meet progression)
6 - Divine Might III
6 - Vigor of Life III
6 - Exalted Smite III
1 - Divine Sacrifice I
4 - str +2
2 - Sealed Life

Human: 19
1 - Human vers (damage) - 1
1 - Human vers (saves) - 1
2 - Adaptability - 2
2 - Greater Adaptability - 2
6 - Imp Recovery III - 6
3 - Action Surge - 3 (filler to meet progression to t2 and t4)
4 - Heroism / Grt Herosim - 4

This is obviously 12 pts too many, so I will likely eventually drop Harbored by Light, Heroism/Grt Heroism (replaced by clickies/scrolls), 3rd tiers of Human Imp Recovery and Action Surge.... though I just re-read harbored by light and think it may be a must-have, so I may have to make room elsewhere... ideas?

Anyway, hope this helps a little.

[FranOhmsford]

Agreed. If I'm not mistaken (old APs no longer in wiki) it now costs 37 AP to get what we used to get for 8 (and I don't recall any conversations EVER saying paladins were over powered):
1 - sacred defense
3 - improved defense (PRR)
3 - improved defense (threat)
3 - improved defense (saves)
3 - greater defense (con)
3 - greater defense (str)
3 - greater defense (20% HP)
6 - reinforced defense (armor 50%)
6 - reinforced defense (shield 50%)
3 - shield mastery
3 - armor mastery

If I recall all this and maybe more were encompassed in DoS III and stance from DoS III. Sure, there were pre-reqs, but the pre-reqs were useful and are still in the tree. AND no you have to use a shield to get most benefits.

As for what to take and what to drop... Well, personally mine is monk splashed, so no capstone. I am working under the assumption (probably accurate) that in epics AC is more useless than ever, so I'm skipping all the AC enhancements in favor of damage. So far I have my list paired down to this:

Sacred Defender: 39
1 - Holy Bastion
1 - Divine Righteousness
1 - Sacred Defense
1 - Redemption
1 - Glorious Stand

3 - Extra LOH
3 - Imp Sacred Defense (Saves)
3 - Imp Sacred Defense (PRR)
2 - Defense Boost (filler to get to 30)
3 - Resistance Aura
3 - Greater Sacred Def (str)
4 - Charisma +2
3 - Greater Sacred Def (HP)
1 - Swift Defense
3 - Greater Sacred Def (con)
6 - Harbored by Light

KotC: 34
3 - Slayer of Evil III
2 - Courage of Heaven II
3 - Extra Smite III (filler to meet progression)
1 - Extra Turning I (filler to meet progression)
6 - Divine Might III
6 - Vigor of Life III
6 - Exalted Smite III
1 - Divine Sacrifice I
4 - str +2
2 - Sealed Life

Human: 19
1 - Human vers (damage) - 1
1 - Human vers (saves) - 1
2 - Adaptability - 2
2 - Greater Adaptability - 2
6 - Imp Recovery III - 6
3 - Action Surge - 3 (filler to meet progression to t2 and t4)
4 - Heroism / Grt Herosim - 4

This is obviously 12 pts too many, so I will likely eventually drop Harbored by Light, Heroism/Grt Heroism (replaced by clickies/scrolls), 3rd tiers of Human Imp Recovery and Action Surge.... though I just re-read harbored by light and think it may be a must-have, so I may have to make room elsewhere... ideas?

Anyway, hope this helps a little.


There's been a few threads asking about enhancements stacking or not.

I've noticed you haven't taken the Human Fighting Style - Shields - Is this because it doesn't stack / you're not sure whether it stacks?

I prefer Versatility Skills myself to Dmg {for Intim}.

I take ALL the Turning Enhancements myself.

I notice you missed out the Imp Sacred Defense: Threat Line - Is this a good idea for a Possible Tank?

[Inoukchuk]

There's been a few threads asking about enhancements stacking or not.

I've noticed you haven't taken the Human Fighting Style - Shields - Is this because it doesn't stack / you're not sure whether it stacks?

I prefer Versatility Skills myself to Dmg {for Intim}.

I take ALL the Turning Enhancements myself.

I notice you missed out the Imp Sacred Defense: Threat Line - Is this a good idea for a Possible Tank?

I frequently see it noted that tanks are not actually needed at this stage of the game. I keep my intimidate maxed, get +50% threat from the core tier, and have divine righteousness for bursts of another +100%.

The fighting style would give me a few AC (only 15% of shield AC) and I don't use tower shields since I have evasion, so no benefit there. Notice I skipped all the shield and armor enhancements from defender also. I'd love to fit them in so I can switch to AC as needed but.... I just don't have the AP to waste on a part time role, and I rarely if ever want to give up evasion to put on armor. Mostly my build is for high survivability (evasion, PRR, self healing, high saves, heal amp) with as much DPS as I can muster. This is partly because I've been given the impression that tanks aren't needed and partly because it' just more fun and also more useful for soloing, which I do a lot of, and even more useful in groups *most* of the time. I have every faith I can still tank situationally as needed. And turning.... is really just to give me more uses of DM. At higher levels the minimal light damage will seem negligible, the turns themselves are useless. I would love to take the restoration enhancements but again, just can't afford and I'm taking sealed soul so I won't need them for myself. In a group I have spells I can use on that, or won't need to if there is a divine healer.

[Ralmeth]

I frequently see it noted that tanks are not actually needed at this stage of the game. I keep my intimidate maxed, get +50% threat from the core tier, and have divine righteousness for bursts of another +100%.

The fighting style would give me a few AC (only 15% of shield AC) and I don't use tower shields since I have evasion, so no benefit there. Notice I skipped all the shield and armor enhancements from defender also. I'd love to fit them in so I can switch to AC as needed but.... I just don't have the AP to waste on a part time role, and I rarely if ever want to give up evasion to put on armor. Mostly my build is for high survivability (evasion, PRR, self healing, high saves, heal amp) with as much DPS as I can muster. This is partly because I've been given the impression that tanks aren't needed and partly because it' just more fun and also more useful for soloing, which I do a lot of, and even more useful in groups *most* of the time. I have every faith I can still tank situationally as needed. And turning.... is really just to give me more uses of DM. At higher levels the minimal light damage will seem negligible, the turns themselves are useless. I would love to take the restoration enhancements but again, just can't afford and I'm taking sealed soul so I won't need them for myself. In a group I have spells I can use on that, or won't need to if there is a divine healer.

Just as a FYI, evasion works with a tower shield. On a previous Paladin / Fighter / Monk build I had, I used tower shields all the time and evasion worked just fine.

[FranOhmsford]

And turning.... is really just to give me more uses of DM. At higher levels the minimal light damage will seem negligible, the turns themselves are useless.

Certain High Level Undead have been given Deathward which for some insane reason stops TU {Yes I'm looking at you Giant Skeletons!}.
BUT
And this is a Big But:

Turn Undead WORKS!

The Light Dmg is a very nice Bonus for helping take a few HP off those Undead in the Area that you don't destroy with the first blast.
Especially for a Paladin - Who is naturally behind a Cleric in Turn Power.

Another Stacking issue btw - Does Imp Turn from Radiant Servant & HotD now stack - Pretty sure the Extra Turning Enhancements do.

[ReaperAlexEU]

i had to weigh up a lot of choices, and as you point out there are a ton of nice things to get.

the way i worked it all out was to be frugal and only take enough tank stuff to match my old stats. this meant i ignored the human fighting styles, the AC bonuses to shields (as i got more bank per buck on armour AC bonuses).

yes i'd love to have more points to spend, but don't forget the old system left us wanting more too. i'd have loved to get divine sacrifice III and exalted smite III on the old system, but i just couldn't afford it.

now, having matched my old stats, i can afford both! so yes i could drop them back to tier II and get more tank, but i've found my tank to be just fine for the content i play (EH for the large part).

i'll do a dump of my actual choices when i get home, which is in about 10-12 hours as i'm off to see friends tonight. then you can see where i cut corners and where i took some treats (hey, gotta have a few treats :) )

[Inoukchuk]

Just as a FYI, evasion works with a tower shield. On a previous Paladin / Fighter / Monk build I had, I used tower shields all the time and evasion worked just fine.

Great to know! Thanks for that tidbit, I'd always been told the opposite, but if you have positive experience to the contrary I'll take that! Some late game towers shields also grant proficiency, so that'll be a nice upgrade.

[Inoukchuk]

Certain High Level Undead have been given Deathward which for some insane reason stops TU {Yes I'm looking at you Giant Skeletons!}.
BUT
And this is a Big But:

Turn Undead WORKS!

The Light Dmg is a very nice Bonus for helping take a few HP off those Undead in the Area that you don't destroy with the first blast.
Especially for a Paladin - Who is naturally behind a Cleric in Turn Power.

Another Stacking issue btw - Does Imp Turn from Radiant Servant & HotD now stack - Pretty sure the Extra Turning Enhancements do.

My experience with a cleric with a heavy focus on turning (it's best all or nothing) was that it dominated low level and early-mid level undead content. But by mid teens a) it didn't kill nearly as many undead due to the formula used to calculate hit dice killed and b) I wasn't fighting enough undead to make it worth the heavy investment. My paly has no real trouble smashing down undead with his weapons, so I'd prefer my AP investments (which are already so critically tight) be focused on things that will improve my character in more general content (i.e. be more generically useful that content specific). I had to cut some things I'd REALLY like to get down to 92 AP, no way would I cut more stuff I'd REALLY like to fit in extra turning, except of course that I have nothing else to buy at that tier *sigh*.

[bsquishwizzy]

What are you talking about Feats for?

This is about the Enhancement Change NOT Feats!

OK So I mentioned the Two Bonus Feats from Fighter Levels that I have at the moment and whether I should accept losing them and go Pure Pally - I personally think that Pallys are extremely Feat Starved BUT that's not really the issue here but an aside.


Some of the old enhancements were turned into feats.

Some older enhancements that were beneficial to a build objective are now gone, replaced with something else, and so on. Therefore, you may want to mess around with your feats to compensate.

You can call it an “enhancement pass,” but if you think you’re simply changing enhancements, you’re deluding yourself. The first thing I did – mainly because of what I found on Lammania – was to take the free LR, re-do my feats, and then select my enhancements accordingly.


You say you ignored the Auras?
So
You Ignored HP, PRR, Threat Gen, Saves, 6 Con, 6 Str?
Wow!

First AC is not what it used to be.

Second I see no aura under the SD line that increases strength.

Third, if I took the auras, the odds of me getting 20% healing amp at 18 or better drops down to about nil. I still have one level to go, which means 2 – 4 AP left. I may or may not take an aura. However, right now, I’m not having much of a problem in the areas you are mentioning.

Fourth, at lvl 18, I was sitting at 118 PRR in-stance with a shield, without specialized gear, and it was a significant increase from the DoS line (like about 30 or 40 pts of PRR). Right now, I have the same PRR I had with a Greatsword (no shield) in my hand as I did in the o0ld system with a shield. So where you’re getting how I dorked myself on PRR without the auras is a little beyond me.

I also have more HP in-stance than I did in the old enhancements.

That being said, you only have so many APs. Healing amp is essential for a tank, and the more the better. No one will dispute that. The best way I found to get healing amp was to dump the auras, and dip into the Human tree to give me STR on action boosts, and use that to increase my CON score.

So all things being equal, I’m ahead of where I was defensively in the old build, as well as picking up THF so that I can wield a Greatsword for marginally better DPS (I have yet to test this).



I respecced him - Dropping the Armour and Shield lines so I could put points into KotC for Divine Sac/Exalted Smite - He is No longer even close to being a Tank!

Well, that was your choice. Under the old system with Exalted Smites, with Khopesh (for the extended crit range) damage wasn’t all that spectacular. Even so, the way the lines are divided, you’ll end up investing in either healing amp, smites, but not both. I took healing amp. I don’t have many regrets.


Yes you can ignore the likes of Item Defense - Basically all this does is save you some Plat - 3 AP total!

That really depends on how long you intend to get beat on. If you are a tank, you’re expected to sit there and beat on for long periods of time. Taking something that reduces damage to your named equipment is not a bad idea.

And if that named gear goes bad mid-quest (and yes, I’ve SEEN that happen), I don’t think you can fix that with plat. Then again, I’ve never been to that point before.


You can ignore the Shield Bashing line if UNLIKE ME you DIDN'T take the Feat!

The jury is out on that one as far as I’m concerned. I heard all of the pally experts telling me to take THF, so I’m giving that a try. If it was a bad decision, I still have another LR left I can use to fix it.


The AC and Saves Boosts are Bonuses compared to the Human Boosts but cost 5 AP more to max out so too costly for what they give.
BUT this still leaves you putting an awful lot of points into Sacred Defender!

If I recall correctly, at lvl 18 I was putting maybe 8 - 10 points into the Human racial tree(estimating off the top of my head) to get the 20% healing amp. At that time, I had basically taken all of the SD stuff (with the exceptions I noted) to near max investment. When I hit 19, the top tier was completed in SD.

Yeah, maybe you can’t put every single AP into SD. There is some stuff there that can be compensated for elsewhere, and there is some stuff that people are just not going to want or use.

MY PM doesn’t use the skelly summon in the PM tree. It hasn’t exactly hurt me in any regard.



82AP is Ridiculous!
It's Silly to have a Tree cost more than it's actually possible to earn!
And that's NOT Counting the Capstone!

Comparing what I had before with what I have now, I have better Tank-ish stats for all of my core requirements than under the old enhancement system for DoS, I am not forced to take Bladesworn Transformation / Silver Flame Exorcism / Undying Call, Unyielding Sovereignty / Vulkoor's Avatar as a pre-requisite (which is 4 AP right there).

Now I lost stuff in some areas, which I’m not wholly happy about. But, I’m not seeing a massive difference between old enhancements and new.

That being said, there is a lot of what I would define as optional stuff, and a lot of it was either new to the class, or is not really a necessity if you are taking SD at face value.


Sacred Defender however is a "Self Contained Prestige"
It does what it says on the Tin if you max it out {as much as you can of course!}.

Unfortunately that does mean you're specializing a bit too far as you lose ALL the Dmg Enhancements that a Pally used to get no matter what it's Prestige!

You are right on that one. I’m a little perturbed by the loss of a couple of smites and Exalted Smite. I could have taken it, but I’d lose the healing amp. So I made a choice. Still, it would have been nice to have both.

However, this then places more focus on making sure you amp-up double-strike, and weapons with high-damage procs like Vorpal and Smiting. Again, it is a workable solution, but not one that anyone would salivate over.

[FranOhmsford]

Second I see no aura under the SD line that increases strength.

It's at the top of the tree along with the 6 Con Line.

"Strong Defense: While wielding a shield in Sacred Defense, you gain a +2/+4/+6 Sacred bonus to Strength."

You're talking about saving AP on stuff that you had to take before BUT the DoS Prestige used to give you massive benefits at 6,12 and 18
NOW you have to take all those benefits separately - They add up to a Lot of AP!

Improved Sacred Defense = 9 Ranks
Greater Sacred Defense = 9 Ranks
some of these may be 2ap per rank.

This is a Lot of AP to spend that we didn't have to previously!

[Krelar]

It's at the top of the tree along with the 6 Con Line.

"Strong Defense: While wielding a shield in Sacred Defense, you gain a +2/+4/+6 Sacred bonus to Strength."

You're talking about saving AP on stuff that you had to take before BUT the DoS Prestige used to give you massive benefits at 6,12 and 18
NOW you have to take all those benefits separately - They add up to a Lot of AP!

Improved Sacred Defense = 9 Ranks
Greater Sacred Defense = 9 Ranks
some of these may be 2ap per rank.

This is a Lot of AP to spend that we didn't have to previously!

That's not an aura, that is a stance improvement.
The aura's are the +to AC, saves and spell resistance.

If it was an aura then 1 Paladin would be in high demand for a lot of groups. "Quick get a pally so we all get +6 to STR" :D

[Lorianna]

-Spellshield Aura: Are you using a spell resistance item? Is the bonus making a noticeable difference for you? I'm in the middle of a TR, so I haven't had a chance to test this yet at high level. I'm intrigued to see if you can get spell resistance to a noticeable level, but still a bit skeptical.


Just to reply to this bit ... my drow paladin (18 pal / 2 ftr) with the spellshield aura and racial bonuses to SR is tooling around with a 45 SR with no outside buffs at 23rd. While it's not enough to shrug off EE stuff, casters on EH have to actually work a bit to breach it, and if I'm out in overland areas, casters have almost no chance to get past my SR. :) Once I get to 28th, my SR'll be sitting at 50+ without any help.

<edit> Hm, seems like it claims I joined just today. That's weird. Going to have to check that when I get home, hope it didn't eat my 4+ years of sub time as far as my forum account goes. :)

[Ralmeth]

Just to reply to this bit ... my drow paladin (18 pal / 2 ftr) with the spellshield aura and racial bonuses to SR is tooling around with a 45 SR with no outside buffs at 23rd. While it's not enough to shrug off EE stuff, casters on EH have to actually work a bit to breach it, and if I'm out in overland areas, casters have almost no chance to get past my SR. :) Once I get to 28th, my SR'll be sitting at 50+ without any help.

<edit> Hm, seems like it claims I joined just today. That's weird. Going to have to check that when I get home, hope it didn't eat my 4+ years of sub time as far as my forum account goes. :)

Thanks for the feedback! That's very interesting:) This could make going Drow more attractive for Paladins overall. When you get up to even higher level, I would be interested to hear how well your SR does for you:)

[bsquishwizzy]

It's at the top of the tree along with the 6 Con Line.

"Strong Defense: While wielding a shield in Sacred Defense, you gain a +2/+4/+6 Sacred bonus to Strength."

You're talking about saving AP on stuff that you had to take before BUT the DoS Prestige used to give you massive benefits at 6,12 and 18
NOW you have to take all those benefits separately - They add up to a Lot of AP!

Improved Sacred Defense = 9 Ranks
Greater Sacred Defense = 9 Ranks
some of these may be 2ap per rank.

This is a Lot of AP to spend that we didn't have to previously!

First, as someone noted, that’s not an aura.

Secondly, I took and maxed that enhancement by lvl 19.

Third, I was able to do that, and most of the SD tree, AND a good chunk of the Human racial tree to get almost exactly what I wanted…which was my 20% healing amp.

Did I get my smites back? No. Am I bummed about it? Kinda. Did I take a loss on my build? Absolutely not. I got extended PRR, extended HP, some protection when I am tripped, the elimination of the speed deduction when I am in stance (and in many cases, that is something very nice to have), and a couple of other things.

I’ll be the first to admit that I am in no way an expert on paladins, but I do know what I need for my tank toon, and I wasn’t exactly disappointed with what I got.

The only major complaint that I’ve seen about the paladin SD tree is the shield requirement for a lot of these bonuses. It basically killed the part-time DPS and part-time shield tank focus that a lot of paladin players had. And the criticism on sticking to straight S&B for SD killing viable DPS for a pally is completely understandable.

However, given my poking around in the class and some of the benefits I’ve noticed from the past enhancements to the new ones, I do not see where your criticism of maxing the SD tree is valid. It sounds to me like even if you could max the tree, you wouldn’t want to anyways because you want the smites in the KotC / HotD tree. So you have no intention of maxing the tree in the first place. Hence, I don’t see where your complaint is justified.

I can see why people would want more powerful smites incorporated into SD, but then they’d have to remove some of the other nice things you get in SD to balance the PrE.

[Ralmeth]

First, as someone noted, that’s not an aura.

Secondly, I took and maxed that enhancement by lvl 19.

Third, I was able to do that, and most of the SD tree, AND a good chunk of the Human racial tree to get almost exactly what I wanted…which was my 20% healing amp.

Did I get my smites back? No. Am I bummed about it? Kinda. Did I take a loss on my build? Absolutely not. I got extended PRR, extended HP, some protection when I am tripped, the elimination of the speed deduction when I am in stance (and in many cases, that is something very nice to have), and a couple of other things.

I’ll be the first to admit that I am in no way an expert on paladins, but I do know what I need for my tank toon, and I wasn’t exactly disappointed with what I got.

The only major complaint that I’ve seen about the paladin SD tree is the shield requirement for a lot of these bonuses. It basically killed the part-time DPS and part-time shield tank focus that a lot of paladin players had. And the criticism on sticking to straight S&B for SD killing viable DPS for a pally is completely understandable.

However, given my poking around in the class and some of the benefits I’ve noticed from the past enhancements to the new ones, I do not see where your criticism of maxing the SD tree is valid. It sounds to me like even if you could max the tree, you wouldn’t want to anyways because you want the smites in the KotC / HotD tree. So you have no intention of maxing the tree in the first place. Hence, I don’t see where your complaint is justified.

I can see why people would want more powerful smites incorporated into SD, but then they’d have to remove some of the other nice things you get in SD to balance the PrE.

It still seems weird, by design, that there are lots of goodies in the Defender tree, but as you're going to want some DPS from the Knight tree, you are left needing to pick and choose which of the goodies in the Defender tree to go with, but whatever. It is what it is, and I don't really mind.

To the OP, and everyone else out there, IMHO below are the base set of enhancements to take from the Knight and Defender tree. This is based on my play-testing to date, as well as my experience in playing Paladin tanks for over 7 years now. These represent the minimum I would spend in each tree.

Knight Tree
-Slayer of Evil I and II - 2 APs - Core
-Courage of Heave & Improved Courage of Heaven - 2 APs - Core
-Extra Turns - 2 APs - level 1 (this is just for prereq for level 2, any other 2 APs would work at level 1)
-Extra Smites - 2 APs - level 1
-Extra Smites - 2 APs - level 2
-Divine Might - 6 APs - level 2
-Exhalted Smite - 6 APs - level 3
-Divine Sacrifice - 3 APs - level 3
-Vigor of Life - 2 APs - level 3
-Vigor of Life - 2 APs - level 4
------------------------------------
29 APs

Defender Tree
-Holy Bastion through Glorious Stand - 5 APs - Core
-Extra Lay on Hands - 3 APs - level 1
-Improved Sacred Defense / PRR - 3 APs - level 1
-Bulwark Aura / Sacred Armor Mastery (at low levels, Bulwark Aura will be better, but once you get a good dodge item and/or you can fill out the max dex. bonus at higher levels, switch to Sacred Armor Mastery) - 3 APs - level 2 or 1
-Improved Sacred Defense / Hate - 3 APs - level 2
-Greater Sacred Defense / Strength - 3 APs - level 3
-Greater Sacred Defense / Hit Points - 3 APs - level 4 (Note: this is bugged at the moment and you will temporarily lose the bonus hit points when you swap weapons, even with a shield equipped)
-Swift Defense - 1 AP - level 4
-Reinforced Defense / Armor - 6 APs - level 4
--------------------------------------------------------
30 APs

So in total, that's 59 total APs, leaving 21 more to spend in a different class or racial tree, or more in the defender or knight tree. There are a lot of other good choices. Personally, I am leaning away from the aura enhancements (Bulwark, Resistance and Spellshield) because 1) a Paladin's aura is primarily for the benefit of the Paladin, and 2) I think you get a better bang for your buck/AP elsewhere, such as tier 5 defender stuff, or perhaps more in the Knight tree. Also, if you're going to use a tower shield you'll want Sacred Shield Mastery maxed. I just don't see having room for the aura enhancements, unless based on Lorianna's feedback, you go Drow and max out spell resistance, which sounds like an intriguing idea:)

*Edit: I've removed Improved Sacred Defense / Saves - 3 APs - level 3, from the list of required enhancements. After play testing, this is a nice to have for a Pally tank, but not required.

In any event, I hope this helps.

[Whitering]

Just to reply to this bit ... my drow paladin (18 pal / 2 ftr) with the spellshield aura and racial bonuses to SR is tooling around with a 45 SR with no outside buffs at 23rd. While it's not enough to shrug off EE stuff, casters on EH have to actually work a bit to breach it, and if I'm out in overland areas, casters have almost no chance to get past my SR. :) Once I get to 28th, my SR'll be sitting at 50+ without any help.

<edit> Hm, seems like it claims I joined just today. That's weird. Going to have to check that when I get home, hope it didn't eat my 4+ years of sub time as far as my forum account goes. :)

It's not everyday you see someone born yesterday that can actually write :)

Just be happy.

I find all of this illuminating because I was going to TR into a Pally next, and I still might because I only have to hit 20 until I am finished TRing, so I don't have to worry too much about Epic Elite, just farming enough tokens for the TR, which can be done in a few easy challenges with the right clickies.

[ReaperAlexEU]

It still seems weird, by design, that there are lots of goodies in the Defender tree, but as you're going to want some DPS from the Knight tree, you are left needing to pick and choose which of the goodies in the Defender tree to go with, but whatever. It is what it is, and I don't really mind.

To the OP, and everyone else out there, IMHO below are the base set of enhancements to take from the Knight and Defender tree. This is based on my play-testing to date, as well as my experience in playing Paladin tanks for over 7 years now. These represent the minimum I would spend in each tree.

Knight Tree
-Slayer of Evil I and II - 2 APs - Core
-Courage of Heave & Improved Courage of Heaven - 2 APs - Core
-Extra Turns - 2 APs - level 1 (this is just for prereq for level 2, any other 2 APs would work at level 1)
-Extra Smites - 2 APs - level 1
-Extra Smites - 2 APs - level 2
-Divine Might - 6 APs - level 2
-Exhalted Smite - 6 APs - level 3
-Divine Sacrifice - 3 APs - level 3
-Vigor of Life - 2 APs - level 3
-Vigor of Life - 2 APs - level 4
------------------------------------
29 APs

Defender Tree
-Holy Bastion through Glorious Stand - 5 APs - Core
-Extra Lay on Hands - 3 APs - level 1
-Improved Sacred Defense / PRR - 3 APs - level 1
-Bulwark Aura / Sacred Armor Mastery (at low levels, Bulwark Aura will be better, but once you get a good dodge item and/or you can fill out the max dex. bonus at higher levels, switch to Sacred Armor Mastery) - 3 APs - level 2 or 1
-Improved Sacred Defense / Hate - 3 APs - level 2
-Improved Sacred Defense / Saves - 3 APs - level 3
-Greater Sacred Defense / Strength - 3 APs - level 3
-Greater Sacred Defense / Hit Points - 3 APs - level 4 (Note: this is bugged at the moment and you will temporarily lose the bonus hit points when you swap weapons, even with a shield equipped)
-Swift Defense - 1 AP - level 4
-Reinforced Defense / Armor - 6 APs - level 4
--------------------------------------------------------
33 APs

So in total, that's 62 total APs, leaving 18 more to spend in a different class or racial tree, or more in the defender or knight tree. There are a lot of other good choices. Personally, I am leaning away from the aura enhancements (Bulwark, Resistance and Spellshield) because 1) a Paladin's aura is primarily for the benefit of the Paladin, and 2) I think you get a better bang for your buck/AP elsewhere, such as tier 5 defender stuff, or perhaps more in the Knight tree. Also, if you're going to use a tower shield you'll want Sacred Shield Mastery maxed. I just don't see having room for the aura enhancements, unless based on Lorianna's feedback, you go Drow and max out spell resistance, which sounds like an intriguing idea:)

In any event, I hope this helps.

interesting point about aura vs mastery. i do want the saves from the aura but when it came to buying back points in AC i was trying to be careful to get bang for buck. looks like i missed a trick as mastery lets me make more use from my DEX compared to aura which i took in a no-brainer way.

i took the 50% AC bonus to armour and ignored the shield as it represented less bang per buck.

i realised the human healing AMP was worse than the knight healing amp, due to the smites i already had knight unlocked saving me 1 point for the 1st tier and god knows how many for the 2nd tier compared to human. in the end i took human tier 1 for 3 points total cost with my spare AP's.

i also maxed out the tier 5 PRR enhancement, tier 2 matching my pre-update stats and tier 3 for a nice boost.

after matching stats from before the update i had 13 AP free to spend, so i got a few luxury items like the -50 incap +250 auto-heal and a 2 min divine might. my first run through on lama left me feeling very much like the OP. my frugal run through on live left me with 13 AP spare and an "ooh-shiney" moment as i picked up some treats :).

i think the key for me was not trying to max the SD tree but trying to match my old stats.

for reference here are my current enhancements:



human core 1 [3AP total]
human spell power boost
healing amp

knight core 4 [28AP total]
extra turn 2
extra smite 3
divine might 3
divine sacrifice 3
vigor healing amp 2
exalted smite 3

defender core 6 [49AP total]
LoH 3
durable defence 3
bulwark aura 3
resilience defence 3
resistance aura 3
inciting defence 3
strong defence 3
char 2
reinforced armour 3
tenacious defence 3
harboured by light 3
hardy defence 3


and for comparison this is my layout under the old system:



paladin armour class boost
paladin weapons of good
silver flame exorcism
follower of the silver flame
human adaptability char
human improved recovery II
paladin courage of good
paladin bulwark of good IV
paladin focus of good
paladin resistance of good III
paladin divine might III
paladin divine righteousness
paladin divine sacrifice II
paladin exalted smite II
paladin extra lay on hands III
paladin extra smite evil III
paladin defenders of siberys III
racial toughness II
improved intimidate I
paladin devotion II
paladin charisma I
paladin toughness II


i've not LRed yet as i plan to fiddle with the new system some more before working out how to optimise my whole build around it. skills will be the biggest pain as they are already tight and now heal is looking like a nice boost.