Paying for Updates

[ManCow]

I've been playing this game for years, pay a monthly subscription fee to get all the new stuff and now I'm being told I have to buy update 19? Doesn't being a VIP mean anything anymore? What's the point of paying a fee every month if I'm just going to have to pay more just to play an update that I feel I've more than paid for already. What about all those months with no updates that I still paid? Doesn't that count for something? Just saying!

[enochiancub]

As far as troll attempts go, this one isn't the lamest but it's definitely on the poorer end.

3/10

[Grosbeak07]

As far as troll attempts go, this one isn't the lamest but it's definitely on the poorer end.

3/10

I'll dock him an additional point as he is about 1.5 years late to this discussion.

So 2/10.

[Arnez]

I'll dock him an additional point as he is about 1.5 years late to this discussion.

So 2/10.

He's not even using the Semantics argument (about how they call an New content an update, whereas Updates just allow new expansions to occur)

So 1/10

BUT WAIT! He has allowed a place for +1 Post count!!!

Back to 2/10

[Philibusta]

I've been playing this game for years, pay a monthly subscription fee to get all the new stuff and now I'm being told I have to buy update 19?

Yup, because it's not an update. It's an "Expansion". Which apparently exists outside of the "VIPS get ALL content free" statement.


Doesn't being a VIP mean anything anymore?

Nnnnnnnnnnope.


What's the point of paying a fee every month if I'm just going to have to pay more just to play an update that I feel I've more than paid for already?

Alot of us VIPs are wondering that same exact thing.


What about all those months with no updates that I still paid? Doesn't that count for something? Just saying!

Exaaaaaactly.

And pay no attention to the trolls. They're probably either f2pers that are sore cause they don't have anything legitimate to complain about, or VIPs that haven't yet realized that lately we've all been getting screwed.

[Qhualor]

they made up a storyline not of Eberron nature. built some quests around this new storyline. now it can be called an expansion that everyone must pay for to play it.

next thing you know, vips will have to start paying to play classes. oh wait...

[ManCow]

VIPs get the following benefits:
Access to all Adventure Packs (except expansion content)
Correct me if I'm wring but wasn't "Menace of the Underdark" an expansion.
Don't remember paying for that.

[Philibusta]

VIPs get the following benefits:Correct me if I'm wring but wasn't "Menace of the Underdark" an expansion.
Don't remember paying for that.

Have to call you out as wrong on that one point, ManCow.
MotU was indeed an Expansion.
However, the quests that you don't remember paying for, the Web of Chaos story arc (the chain that gets you to Eveningstar) was an f2p quest chain introduced with the Expansion.
The other 3 story arcs in the MotU Expansion ("The Darkening", "City of Portals", and "The Queen of the Demonweb", had to be purchased, by VIPs and everyone else.

[Violith]

VIPs get the following benefits:
Access to all Adventure Packs (except expansion content)
Correct me if I'm wring but wasn't "Menace of the Underdark" an expansion.
Don't remember paying for that.

MoTU was an expansion, and yes VIPs had to pay for that one as well, although alot of VIP's got it from their monthly points that they saved up. And alot cheaper since about a month after the release it was put on sale for 50% off.

VIP's basically rent the content, get 500 pts a month, 10% extra exp and faster running speed in public. plus can open on elite whenever. overallu do get decent stuff, but your not entitled to keep any of it. just like if you rent a house your not entitedly to keep it even if you eventually pay double (or even hundreds of times) its worth.

the moment you quit paying you lose all the content you could access and havent bought. ultimately if you dont need the stuff VIP's get then there isnt much point in paying a monthly fee for years. most people seem to save up their monthly points and buy the content whenever they are able to.

as for what entitles it as an expansion rather then an update with content.... I'd agree that its abit on the slim side, but still more then what would entitled to be 'free'. and MoTU was update 14, we're at 19. thats 4 updates that have been free since the last expansion and alot more work then proabably all 4 of those previous updates put together.

[ZzpxpzZ]

Heres the thing - occasionally DDO needs very major systems overhauls that require a LOT of work.

However, DDO has become accustomed, and frankly needs, a very regular update schedule.

Therefore, enter the expansions. Really, the expansions are charging for the systems update in the guise of a standard content update, however since they cant very well force you to pay for the systems update since that has to go out to everyone at the same time, they end up having to charge you for the content.

In effect, for a specific example here, IF update 19 had just been a standard update rather than an expansion pack, we would have gotten the new quests and areas (probably only one of them though, the other would come in update 20 instead) the level bump, and the new feats.

By making it an expansion instead, they were able to give it more production manpower and time and we get two updates worth of content, the level bump and feats, the new iconic heroes, and the real time consumer, the enhancement update.

You may argue that the enhancement pass was good or bad ( I personally am loving it but opinions diverge ) but you csnt argue the fact that it took a lot more manhours to do than a standard update.

Basically the periodic paid expansions allow turbine to do game changes that require more time and manpower than a basic content patch while not having unusually large gaps in updates.

[morkahn82]

This thread again.

[Bimbelbo]

I absolutely understand the frustration of many old VIPs that have to pay for new adventure packs. This update is basically just 2 adventure packs, that's their justification to call it an 'expansion' and charge extra.

But from all I've read they changed their business model years ago to tempt people to cancel their VIP-subscription. Basically they want people to pay ~100 bucks to buy all packs (and races/classes/bank upgrades etc.) and then pay every new content subsequently.

VIP is a leftover of the 'old' payment model. I consider it for people who want to make a monthly donation to the company (which they in return don't seem to appreciate very much). The only advantage you really get is the ability to open all quests on elite as a first-lifer. So if that's worth a monthly fee for you, you should stay VIP. But you still have to expect to pay for new stuff once or twice a year.

[Deadlock]

I've been playing this game for years, pay a monthly subscription fee to get all the new stuff and now I'm being told I have to buy update 19?

You've been playing less than a year if this is the first time you've got your knickers in a twist over this.

http://www.socialconversations.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/do-not-feed-the-trolls.jpg

[Azarddoze]

He's not even using the Semantics argument (about how they call an New content an update, whereas Updates just allow new expansions to occur)

Simply, lol.

Troll baited once again...

[Forzah]

...

Even though it was asked before, it's a fair question and not trolling. Why go VIP at all if you keep having to pay for new content?

[Azarddoze]

Even though it was asked before, it's a fair question and not trolling. Why go VIP at all if you keep having to pay for new content?

I'll give this a try

You feel like it's worth it, you go VIP.
You don't, enjoy premium.

[Forzah]

I'll give this a try

You feel like it's worth it, you go VIP.
You don't, enjoy premium.

There are quite a few people who get tricked into going VIP, since they have no clue about its value. Premium is clearly the better deal in the long run, especially now you also have to buy the expansions as VIP. The least they could do for VIPs is to make these expansions free.

For the record, I've been premium from the start, but I think this VIP-model with paid expansions is poor business practice.

[My2Cents]

Even though it was asked before, it's a fair question and not trolling. Why go VIP at all if you keep having to pay for new content?

I find it a very fair question, and I felt the same. Having been a VIP for some time I assessed what I already owned and accomplished, and decided to go premium, devoting my next two (what would have been) VIP subscription payments to the expansion instead.

I'm happy with my choice.

[Deadlock]

There are quite a few people who get tricked into going VIP, since they have no clue about its value.

Nonsense. You can clearly try before you buy. If you choose not to and plunge in with a subscription, that's your choice. To say it's a trick is ridiculous.


Premium is clearly the better deal in the long run

I don't rate the better deal being how little I can pay to play the game. if you do then you could be right in what you describe as the best deal for you in your personal circumstances. I personally completely disagree with your opinion.


<snip stuff that's been said to death>

Nothing new to add to what's been said repeatedly.

[Nadion]

You know what is also included in VIP? - 500TP a month. Hold off blowing it on XP pots for a couple of months and you are effectively getting the expansion as part of your subscription.

[Dilbon]

This shows why the P2P model in general is a fail nowadays. Yet some games still insist on doing it.

[Azarddoze]

This shows why the P2P model in general is a fail nowadays. Yet some games still insist on doing it.

Indeed, "this" shows many things. Care to elaborate on your clear vision on the subject?

... It's just a choice which you may or may not subscribe to. Why is this so hard to understand? Differents offers for differents needs. Even the worst troll would find something better to play with.

If you can't understand why some people could use the VIP model... think harder.

[Forzah]

Nonsense. You can clearly try before you buy. If you choose not to and plunge in with a subscription, that's your choice. To say it's a trick is ridiculous.



I don't rate the better deal being how little I can pay to play the game. if you do then you could be right in what you describe as the best deal for you in your personal circumstances. I personally completely disagree with your opinion.



People on the forums can make a perfectly well-founded choice between the two packages. A new customer cannot know without doing extensive research. On https://www.ddo.com/en/become-vip there is only a small line that says: "All Adventure Packs released in non-expansion Updates are free to DDO VIPs". As a new customer I have no idea what that means.

[Azarddoze]

Double post

[Azarddoze]

People on the forums can make a perfectly well-founded choice between the two packages. A new customer cannot know without doing extensive research. On https://www.ddo.com/en/become-vip there is only a small line that says: "All Adventure Packs released in non-expansion Updates are free to DDO VIPs". As a new customer I have no idea what that means.

So a new customer should blindly put in 100-200$+ to buy content instead of 15$ to try it out? Right.

. . .

[DeKalbSun]

meh...I like being a VIP and I like the new expansion. Feels like more than just an update to me. Some people like farming for TP. I hate it.

[Dilbon]

Indeed, "this" shows many things. Care to elaborate on your clear vision on the subject?


With a P2P model it's simply that if you don't pay a monthly fee you can't play.

[Extispex]

People on the forums can make a perfectly well-founded choice between the two packages. A new customer cannot know without doing extensive research. On https://www.ddo.com/en/become-vip there is only a small line that says: "All Adventure Packs released in non-expansion Updates are free to DDO VIPs". As a new customer I have no idea what that means.


Clicking "The Game" and "Adventure Packs" doesn't qualify as "extensive research" in my book. The page hasn't been updated with the last expansion yet, but it shouldn't be that hard to figure out.

It's also possible to ask on the forums. ;)

[Chai]

This shows why the P2P model in general is a fail nowadays. Yet some games still insist on doing it.

8/10 of the most populated games right now are sub. I do not think the word fail means what you think it means.

[Chai]

People on the forums can make a perfectly well-founded choice between the two packages. A new customer cannot know without doing extensive research. On https://www.ddo.com/en/become-vip there is only a small line that says: "All Adventure Packs released in non-expansion Updates are free to DDO VIPs". As a new customer I have no idea what that means.

Kind of...

Us forumites can make an informed decision based on what the agreement looks like today. Then when they alter the agreement, we pray they dont alter it any further...

[Chai]

Clicking "The Game" and "Adventure Packs" doesn't qualify as "extensive research" in my book. The page hasn't been updated with the last expansion yet, but it shouldn't be that hard to figure out.

It's also possible to ask on the forums. ;)

We are talking about a brand new customer who doesnt understand as of yet that the word "expansion" and "update" relating to content have a very different meaning in the DDO nomenclature.

[Leistes]

I play DDO. I like playing DDO. I, therefore, don't mind paying the fees associated with my VIP status.

However, I do agree that VIPs are not currently getting the full value of there subscription. I did not have a problem paying for MotU because there was enough content to actually legitimize calling it an expansion pack. Unlike MotU, U19 was more about system-wide changes that effected all players, whether or not they paid for the "expansion". (Ref. loot changes, enhancements, etc.)

Going forward, as a means of mitigating such discrepancies between Turbine and VIPs, perhaps the kobolds would consider offering expansions to VIPs at a discounted rate. This way, Turbine could still get the requisite funds while also rewarding VIPs for their loyalty and contributions.

[Catteras]

Sure everything previous posters have said has been said before. But that doesnt exclude it from the need of repetition. If players say it enough, turbine might get the message.

Motu had the feel of a p2p expansion, especially considering that it had an actual raid to cap it off.

Shadowfell is just two free updates that were withheld (consider all the time between the GH update and now--that 3 quest "update" doesnt count as one in my book) so that they could roll them into a p2p update ("expansion").

I preordered and now i feel like i got jipped. I think that those that have bought the expansion must be few. The lfm panel never has shadowfell stuff listed it seems, but i see tons of other epic groups forming up. Unless people are still tweaking builds a lot still.

I feel the only real value i get from vip is open on elite since i run lots of alts. However, considering how few free updates we get, im thinking ill be better off cancelling my vip and saving the cash to purchase the updates instead.

[bartharok]

For me going VIP is ALMOST worth it, even if i do own all the quests and classes.

Why, you may ask.

Its becuase i HATE going through the N/H/E to get favor for a rarely run quest, or one that ive leveled past. And getting BB would be nice for my firstlifers as well, since i play 21 toons on one server alone at the moment.

[Qhualor]

I play DDO. I like playing DDO. I, therefore, don't mind paying the fees associated with my VIP status.

However, I do agree that VIPs are not currently getting the full value of there subscription. I did not have a problem paying for MotU because there was enough content to actually legitimize calling it an expansion pack. Unlike MotU, U19 was more about system-wide changes that effected all players, whether or not they paid for the "expansion". (Ref. loot changes, enhancements, etc.)

Going forward, as a means of mitigating such discrepancies between Turbine and VIPs, perhaps the kobolds would consider offering expansions to VIPs at a discounted rate. This way, Turbine could still get the requisite funds while also rewarding VIPs for their loyalty and contributions.

This is one of the few reasons why I refuse to buy Shadowfell. Basically, they released some quests with a different story line and at the same time made some very big changes to the game that affects all of us. Take away the big changes from this "expansion", enhancements, changes to skills, secret doors, loot re-roll, UI and its not worth calling an expansion in my opinion.

I suggested before last expansion release of VIPs paying a discount price for expansions. I was met with opposition that other MMOs dont do that either. I would consider it fair and makes Turbine look less evil ;) I don't see anything wrong with it and would be a juicy perk. DDO led the way with F2P, so they could do the same with subs if they really wanted to. I know I would have fought over morals and a discounted expansion price if it was a VIP perk.

[Thrudh]

Even though it was asked before, it's a fair question and not trolling. Why go VIP at all if you keep having to pay for new content?

I pay the yearly subscription... costs me $99 a year. That's $8.25 a month. I get 500 TPs a month free... That's a value of $3.50-$4.00 a month...

So I pay about $4.50 a month for everything else.

Seems like a perfectly good deal to me. Super cheap. Super easy.

Buying everything like character slots and shared banks and all the content must cost what? At least $150? So that's 30 months before I break even if I went premium, and that doesn't include all the content they would release between now and 30 months from now...

There's just not enough savings for it to be worth my time, and having to wait for things to go on sale.

[Ryiah]

A new customer cannot know without doing extensive research. On https://www.ddo.com/en/become-vip there is only a small line that says: "All Adventure Packs released in non-expansion Updates are free to DDO VIPs". As a new customer I have no idea what that means.

All it takes is five minutes to set up an account and post on the forums with a simple question asking for all the details. There is a big difference between being tricked and being lazy.

[EllisDee37]

Buying everything like character slots and shared banks and all the content must cost what? At least $150? So that's 30 months before I break even if I went premium, and that doesn't include all the content they would release between now and 30 months from now...It's roughly 18 months to get everything in the game as a premium penny pincher, but even then you still don't get elite unlock.