Changes bad or good?

[Hellllboy]

I keep reading about so many players that are not happy with the changes made to our game.

I don't mean to give the impression that I subscribe to everything that the Dev's do to change the game, but frankly I am happy to be able to explore new builds and experiement. Its like the game is new and fresh again. I don't just wander through dungeons trying to get them done to finish off another TR life. I can actually explore new styles of Builds and see what works best.

To me this is fun and exciting. Im sure I am the minority in looking at things this way-but I figured I would share my opinion.

I understand the other side of this argument as well-players have grinded gear and worked very hard at something that now may or may not work anymore. This is the reality of MMO's and I feel bad for all your hard work. I am in that group of players on a number of builds.

[gurgar78]

I keep reading about so many players that are not happy with the changes made to our game.

I don't mean to give the impression that I subscribe to everything that the Dev's do to change the game, but frankly I am happy to be able to explore new builds and experiement. Its like the game is new and fresh again. I don't just wander through dungeons trying to get them done to finish off another TR life. I can actually explore new styles of Builds and see what works best.

To me this is fun and exciting. Im sure I am the minority in looking at things this way-but I figured I would share my opinion.

I understand the other side of this argument as well-players have grinded gear and worked very hard at something that now may or may not work anymore. This is the reality of MMO's and I feel bad for all your hard work. I am in that group of players on a number of builds.

You're not the only one. I was up until 3am redesigning new characters out of the old ones.

SO MUCH FUN.

I think my favorite so far is the Wiz/monk that I changed from a 12wiz/8mon split to a 17wiz/3mon split. Went from handwraps to shortswords and switched from a str build to a dex/wis build for higher AC, decent damage with Ninjaspy Dex-for-damage ability on the shortswords and fairly good defense.

I haven't even tried to gear this toon yet for this build and at 21, I'm sitting on 53-60 AC (depending on stance) so like 45-50% miss chance, 22% dodge and 35% incorporeality in wraithform. 42 dex with Tenser's up. I don't get hit much. It's kinda fun. After using Wind in the Reeds or whatever the ability is, I cap my dodge at 28%.

Great self-healing with Lesser Death Aura, Death Aura and Neg Energy Burst.

Also did you know that the higher level monk forms are not strictly Monk-level based anymore? They are feats now that you get for free at certain monk levels, but you can choose them like any normal feat. I am currently using Master of Storms for the 3 extra dex, 12.5% attack speed boost and 7.5% double strike boost. Can also swap over too Master Mountain for extra AC, PRR and hitpoints.

With Shintao +10% offhand attacks, and GMoF doublestrike bonuses, I'm at 90% offhand attack proc and 18.5% double strike with a +5% doublestrike shortsword.

Crit range of 17-20 for Ninja Spy poison stacks and Wraithform 1d6 con damage.

I only got to play him for a few minutes because it was late, but I was definitely enjoying myself.

Edit: Oh, yeah, and level 7-9 wiz spells. I guess I got that extra too, after the switch.

[Chauncey1]

But, having calmed down after the initial shock of seeing my precious Slaying Arrows altered, I think the changes are very good overall.

[Charononus]

It all depends on what you play.

DoS, SD, nerfed hard and now are even more gimped in all but 2 quests than they were before.

Animal Form druids nerfed hard, lost 4d6 on reaving roar and devotion. Best way to get devotion on a wolf build is now a large shintao splash. Just wrong.

helf/elf aa's nerfed hard thru excessive point requirements to access the aa tree

Some classes lost a good chunk of hp which hurts

Sorcs got hurt a bit, not as bad as previous versions but still got hurt.

Casters have major new skill taxes, they get rid of the "toughness feat tax" and add in 2 new skill taxes.

Monchers have a feat tax as 10k stars is now a feat


Now some classes were buffed

Caster druids got slas and beguile

Juggs got repair amp, haste boost, weapon attachment

Monk splashes get better forms


So it all depends on what you play, you are either going to be happy, or nerfed into the ground and massively po'ed because your favorite toons are hit so hard. All that said my issues are actually nothing to do with the ep but the systems changes.

XP rep nerf -- sucks
Large explorers -- sucks because I hate them and the only way to bypass them is p2w
Boring quests that honestly don't feel exciting, it feels like 11 druids deep quests which well were not great quests.
Bad named loot that isn't worth farming.
Shard display cluttering my main screen with p2w
Chest reroll next to where loot all used to be in an attempt to fleece people out of shards.
Level cap increase that limits endgame even more.

[gurgar78]

helf/elf aa's nerfed hard thru excessive point requirements to access the aa tree

Errr, I rolled my AA to a pure fighter half-elven AA last night and didn't think the point requirements were excessive at all.

After taking the stat boosts, action boost abilities, and improved rogue dill, I don't think I had to put in any fluff to take AA.

Unless you didn't want those things, but I thought those were pretty standard things that most players take from the race tree anyway.

Maybe it's harder on elves without the improved dilletante feats to take. I'm not sure what elves have instead of that.

[Charononus]

Errr, I rolled my AA to a pure fighter half-elven AA last night and didn't think the point requirements were excessive at all.

After taking the stat boosts, action boost abilities, and improved rogue dill, I don't think I had to put in any fluff to take AA.

Unless you didn't want those things, but I thought those were pretty standard things that most players take from the race tree anyway.

Maybe it's harder on elves without the improved dilletante feats to take. I'm not sure what elves have instead of that.

I was thinking of some of the old cleric aa's that were done like this. They used to be able to take all of the aa and rs lines to be able to pew pew while still being able to raid heal. It was never top dps but it's just not possible anymore.

[gurgar78]

I was thinking of some of the old cleric aa's that were done like this. They used to be able to take all of the aa and rs lines to be able to pew pew while still being able to raid heal. It was never top dps but it's just not possible anymore.

Ahhh, okay.

That makes a bit more sense.

It does seem like they intentionally moved some of the old combos out of reach in the new system. I definitely felt like I was making more trade-offs when recreating my toons.

Edit: Also, holy ****! Some of the racial enhancements that elves get are *nice*

I would have no trouble spending points in that tree if I were a pure elf.

Pure dex fighter elven arcane archer with a longbow looks kinda beastly.

[jalont]

It all depends on what you play.

DoS, SD, nerfed hard and now are even more gimped in all but 2 quests than they were before.

Animal Form druids nerfed hard, lost 4d6 on reaving roar and devotion. Best way to get devotion on a wolf build is now a large shintao splash. Just wrong.

helf/elf aa's nerfed hard thru excessive point requirements to access the aa tree

Some classes lost a good chunk of hp which hurts

Sorcs got hurt a bit, not as bad as previous versions but still got hurt.

Casters have major new skill taxes, they get rid of the "toughness feat tax" and add in 2 new skill taxes.

Monchers have a feat tax as 10k stars is now a feat


Now some classes were buffed

Caster druids got slas and beguile

Juggs got repair amp, haste boost, weapon attachment

Monk splashes get better forms


So it all depends on what you play, you are either going to be happy, or nerfed into the ground and massively po'ed because your favorite toons are hit so hard. All that said my issues are actually nothing to do with the ep but the systems changes.

XP rep nerf -- sucks
Large explorers -- sucks because I hate them and the only way to bypass them is p2w
Boring quests that honestly don't feel exciting, it feels like 11 druids deep quests which well were not great quests.
Bad named loot that isn't worth farming.
Shard display cluttering my main screen with p2w
Chest reroll next to where loot all used to be in an attempt to fleece people out of shards.
Level cap increase that limits endgame even more.

Are these nerfs to builds actually nerfs though? They were already gimp builds and they remain gimp builds in the new system. The real question is, is the optimal pally build better than the previous optimal pally build? There seems to be a lot of people that were playing gimp builds before and either a.) thought they were awesome or b) hoped that the enhancement pass would make their build decisions uber. I don't know. I can utilize each class and come up with a better build than I could before. The only one may be Sorc, but I haven't explored all my options there. I'm still... weary of splashing casters with other casters, BUT this might actually provide a better optimal build than previously allowed. I honestly don't know though.

[Daemoneyes]

I keep reading about so many players that are not happy with the changes made to our game.

I don't mean to give the impression that I subscribe to everything that the Dev's do to change the game, but frankly I am happy to be able to explore new builds and experiement. Its like the game is new and fresh again. I don't just wander through dungeons trying to get them done to finish off another TR life. I can actually explore new styles of Builds and see what works best.

To me this is fun and exciting. Im sure I am the minority in looking at things this way-but I figured I would share my opinion.

I understand the other side of this argument as well-players have grinded gear and worked very hard at something that now may or may not work anymore. This is the reality of MMO's and I feel bad for all your hard work. I am in that group of players on a number of builds.

Sure the new look is nice but the costs are way to high.
Also with the new UI we lost so much flexibility.
For me its 50/50, half of my builds got screwed other half is almost the same power level they where.

screwed:
13sorc/5pal/2monk - WF, no way to get a decent spellpower/crit without spending to much points which leaves me with the decision to either go melee or cast but no way to do both like i used and which was the only thing that made this build viable.
9druid/9monk/2fighter - Drunk in Wolf form, Animal form got nerfed so hard and i cant even phatom why, it was a weak build already there was absolute no need to further nerf Nature Warrior.

more or less the same as before:
Palemaster - hoped for a few new things but as it looks all i get out of this is a Web SLA which isnt that bad but somewhat meh.
clrc/monk/pal - looks like i need to rearange a few lvl and will gain a few things from monk/pal but no big deal

[psteen1]

\

Animal Form druids nerfed hard, lost 4d6 on reaving roar

actually 6d6. Was 15d6, now is 9d6.

[Charononus]

Are these nerfs to builds actually nerfs though? They were already gimp builds and they remain gimp builds in the new system. The real question is, is the optimal pally build better than the previous optimal pally build? There seems to be a lot of people that were playing gimp builds before and either a.) thought they were awesome or b) hoped that the enhancement pass would make their build decisions uber. I don't know. I can utilize each class and come up with a better build than I could before. The only one may be Sorc, but I haven't explored all my options there. I'm still... weary of splashing casters with other casters, BUT this might actually provide a better optimal build than previously allowed. I honestly don't know though.

Yeah some are flavor or niche builds. Tanks are really only useful in well some of this you don't need if over level but...
lob
tod
vod
hox
fot

The rest of the time they were always flavor but had a niche use and could do ok swinging a 2her to help out the party while leveling. Now well they can't do that and keep their bonuses and they lost 15prr iirc.

Animal form druids while not endgame optimal provided a fun way to level up a class you might not have completely liked for a past life with a 9/9/2 and keep self healing and a strong aoe, that's dead.

All casters need extra skills now that's a nerf, and casters are not gimps before.

Monchers weren't gimps or flavor before but strong builds and they got a feat tax.

So yeah some builds were partial flavor or niche but it effects far more than that.

[Charononus]

actually 6d6. Was 15d6, now is 9d6.

Thought it was 13d6 heh ah well.

[gurgar78]

Sure the new look is nice but the costs are way to high.
Also with the new UI we lost so much flexibility.
For me its 50/50, half of my builds got screwed other half is almost the same power level they where.

screwed:
13sorc/5pal/2monk - WF, no way to get a decent spellpower/crit without spending to much points which leaves me with the decision to either go melee or cast but no way to do both like i used and which was the only thing that made this build viable.
9druid/9monk/2fighter - Drunk in Wolf form, Animal form got nerfed so hard and i cant even phatom why, it was a weak build already there was absolute no need to further nerf Nature Warrior.

more or less the same as before:
Palemaster - hoped for a few new things but as it looks all i get out of this is a Web SLA which isnt that bad but somewhat meh.
clrc/monk/pal - looks like i need to rearange a few lvl and will gain a few things from monk/pal but no big deal

My 20 palemaster is better off than he was before. He has a better lichform, more hps, more int, better DCs, plus the SLAs from the Archmage side of the aisle.

My 12wiz/8monk saw a pretty decent buff. I did change him to a 17wiz/3monk and went dex-build with shortswords. I actually kinda want to change him again to a 12wiz/4monk/4ranger. I think it would be better. It was neat to get level 7-9 spells, but after looking through the lists there's relatively little worth taking when you dumped int in favor of combat stats. Level 6 spells is all you really need.

I changed my ran/bard/fig arcane archer to a pure fighter arcane archer. Slaying Arrow looks like it got whacked with a nerfbat pretty bad, so I'm just not taking it and using T5 kensai abilities and fighter capstone combined with the awesome imbues from the AA line to make a fun archer type character.

To be fair, I've never built for power and always strove for a fun build that's viable, but won't be breaking any records.

[Ironclans_evil_twin]

I was thinking of some of the old cleric aa's that were done like this. They used to be able to take all of the aa and rs lines to be able to pew pew while still being able to raid heal. It was never top dps but it's just not possible anymore.

Yeah but now they can light nuke with so many SLA's that cost next to nothing with max/emp/quicken on them and maxed out Radiance + tree AP spell power. The bow truly would be pointless. Saving SP for heals while limitlessly pounding stuff with 300/300/500/600/AOE quickened SLA's. Not Uber but when you can raid heal, who cares if it's not uber?

My FvS Elf AA is almost certainly ditching AA to be more Light Nuke oriented (was only using bow to fill in between light SLA cooldowns), might splash Cleric or just LR20 into it, as I'll get wings back from Angel ED. I'll probably add extended Displacement dragon mark after freeing up all those AA prerequisite feats. I like the new Elf CC as well Entangle is Wis based and gets a Half character level DC boost, so it's got a useful DC at 20th level it's like a 10th spell level spell + Wis at 28 it's like a 14th spell level spell for DC's).

If I keep maybe low levels of AA (for free arrows) consider: Elf so no more Zen Archery, due to Dex to damage (no need for bow str)... Elf got a massive buff in this update and truth is has been an underrated race for a long time since low CON has been easy to gear around for years now.

I'm rambling but there's a lot to like in this pass no doubt about it. a lot of classes and races got massively buffed... Dwarves and Elves, and I hate to say this but go look at the Bladeforged Tree and keep yourself from going "ZOMG!"... Weapon attachment, Recon SLA, hit points, ******** Fort levels, Adamantine on all your weapons...

[gurgar78]

Elf got a massive buff in this update and truth is has been an underrated race for a long time since low CON has been easy to gear around for years now

My jaw hit the floor when I saw the Elf racial abilities. So wishing now that my AA was an elf instead of a half-elf.

[droid327]

Animal Form druids nerfed hard, lost 4d6 on reaving roar and devotion. Best way to get devotion on a wolf build is now a large shintao splash. Just wrong.

Or take 1 level of Ranger and get 75 positive spellpower...

The solutions are still there, you just have to be creative...but you had to be creative in the old system, too, to find the best combinations.

Think of it as an opportunity to be the guy who discovers the new min-max build that becomes the FOTM :)

[unbongwah]

Some builds got buffed, some builds got nerfed, eventually the vets will minmax the latest over-powered Flavors of the Month (monk / Kensei seem to be the front-runner among melees). So, same as it always was. :rolleyes:

One upside to being a severe altaholic like me: no matter how badly Turbine screws with the game balance, odds are at least one of my builds comes out ahead. I just need to figure out which one(s) and play them until the next "game-breaking" set of rule changes comes along... ;)

[gurgar78]

Or take 1 level of Ranger and get 75 positive spellpower...

The solutions are still there, you just have to be creative...but you had to be creative in the old system, too, to find the best combinations.

Think of it as an opportunity to be the guy who discovers the new min-max build that becomes the FOTM :)

But it's *different* now and therefore evil.

It must be burned at the stake.

[jalont]

My 20 palemaster is better off than he was before. He has a better lichform, more hps, more int, better DCs, plus the SLAs from the Archmage side of the aisle.


This is so true. It seems Turbine has decided to embrace the idea of Shiradi casters and design for them. It's up to people to decide if this is a good idea or not. I'll just say, Shiradi PMs are freakin' awesome.

[diasho2]

As many have said the changes have happened builds will change as they always do. Many old builds are now useless toons people have spent hours on will have to be redone. This is not the first time turbine has done this and it wont be the last.

It is the first time turbine has caused every player to have to spend hours on each toon, not playing, not doing anything fun or enjoyable but simply resetting it on the whim of turbine. Yes they gave us a heart of wood but can they give back the nearly 6 hours I wasted on the process yesterday? No.

7 of the people I normally run with each after logging in and seeing what it would take for them to make their over 20 characters playable canceled their VIP status and started looking for another game in disgust. Who can blame them by the time you spend an hour to an hour and a half on 20 to 30 toons you have put in more than a 40 hour work week doing something that sucks doing even if it will make your toon better in the end, if you are not getting paid or getting a major payoff it is simply more work than it is worth for a game. Granted this is a small sampling, but I'm guessing if this many of those I know feel this way they are not alone.

One other note on my frustration with this update. I started playing Dungeons and Dragons Online for one reason and it was NOT the ONLINE part. I like many others that play this I'm sure have played many other online games but what made this one shine was it's connection to D&D. The 3.5 rules the Eberron setting yes there were drastic differences between this and pen and paper some which had to be for balance some which could have been avoided but all in all the D&D flavor made the game fun and much better than every other mmo out there for me and many other gamers trying to get away from the world of everything is warcraft wannabes.

Some people were upset when the realms were added, I would have liked to have seen Ravenloft or Dark Sun first as additions, think Mabar in Ravenloft......never mind different post, but vanilla is ok to. In the end the part of the realms they added was the most boring part they could have added but it was still 3.5 more or less. Yes the enhancements added power but they were still added in a method similar to feats, skills and prestige classes.

In comes this update. Suddenly racial and class skills grow on trees. I'm getting visions not of dungeons and dragons but of dungeon siege, guild wars, and Diablo 2 mixed together in some strange object oriented pot and the resulting jumble of code is what we now have as our once beloved game.

I still will play because I have friends that play, but I sure won't put another penny into it unless it finds it D&D roots again.

[Hawkwier]

Though I think slaughter is bugged.

[Charononus]

Or take 1 level of Ranger and get 75 positive spellpower...

The solutions are still there, you just have to be creative...but you had to be creative in the old system, too, to find the best combinations.

Think of it as an opportunity to be the guy who discovers the new min-max build that becomes the FOTM :)


But it's *different* now and therefore evil.

It must be burned at the stake.

Well it is different but imo they nerfed the bleep out of animal forms needlessly as they were not op to start with and went from viable to pally levels of power. But I wouldn't want to splash ranger as it would needlessly hurt a good wolf build in otherways. A good wolf build needs to be something like 9/9/2 druid monk fighter, 9 druid to get the feats for natural fighting because wolves absolutely need the doublestrike to work, 9 monk because you need 8 for the monk die steps and at that point you might as well go one more for improved evasion, and 2 fighter so you can cram enough feats in to get oc at epic level. You do get some positive from shintao which amounts to the same as taking ranger, in the sense that taking another class to get devotion on a healing capable class is wrong wrong wrong and needs to be burnt with fire. Now all of this is talking about a wolf form build as oppossed to wolf form leveling build but you get the idea.