+5 Tomes, not surprised, just sad

[Hafeal]

Yes, in either case you can buy the +4 to +5 upgrade tome.

+5 tomes. No doubt +6 on the horizon.

I guess we can say we have hit the bottom of the slippery slope. Geez, I remember +2 tomes being sold and the complaints - "it's only +1 more." And here we are ... at +5 tomes. At some point bigger numbers do mean something. At some point having loot only available in end game quests means something. Just sell raid loot already.

It's amazing to me to watch D&D have the same battles with commercialization in the MMO setting that it had in pnp. I was hoping it could be different this time. Perhaps bleeding every last red cent out of the players here is there only thought for keeping the game going. I am not surprised, but I am sad that this is what passes at the vision level for the people who run this game.

[Dagolar]

It's awkward having +5s in the store, but not devastating to their worth.

But as soon as Turbine breaks above +5 (to +6), is the point where I, and most of the players I know, would stop running raids for tomes, or consider purchasing them from the store. After all, +5s were ALWAYS an expectation for the game, and we made our considerations accordingly. As soon as we break past that, the value goes from an absolute consideration, to a dubious abstract.
Especially since each +1 becomes less and less valuable to a build as a whole.

However, I'd have no problems seeing (Elixer of Unlocked Potential: Strength +2) or the like added to the game, offering a new, higher level tier of unlocks.
(Showing up as a +2 Potential bonus under the stat).

This'd also keep lower tiered raids (with their x20 tome selection) from becoming outdated.

[Hafeal]

It's awkward ... But as soon as Turbine breaks above +5 (to +6), is the point where I, and most of the players I know, would stop running raids for tomes, or consider purchasing them from the store.

I understand. Everyone's breaking point is different. Many, many players are already gone as DDO broke them long ago. It's a shame - the game is less because of the loss of many great players. The fact that we are close to a game changing situation for you and other players is something that should concern DDO even if it didn't seemingly concern them before.

[Kalimah]

I understand. Everyone's breaking point is different. Many, many players are already gone as DDO broke them long ago. It's a shame - the game is less because of the loss of many great players. The fact that we are close to a game changing situation for you and other players is something that should concern DDO even if it didn't seemingly concern them before.

Kinda seems to me that if we can get +10 bonus items fairly easy that a plus 5 tome isnt that much of a much honestly.

[Qhualor]

I was waiting for a thread on this. it didn't go unnoticed by me. once again, rare tomes are ready to be sold in the store. all I did was shake my head and think to myself "here we go again". it has come pretty apparent to me that Turbine is all about making money and don't care what kind of affects it has on the game. look at the Ottos that was confirmed that xp boosts were not intended to stack and than release it again right after that. look at the no confirmation box on the re-roll for loot button. look at the unnecessary shard counter that for some dumb reason has to be on the UI. look at all the inconveniences and the irritations that Turbine themselves implemented into the game and than turn around and put items in the store you can buy to bypass these inconveniences and irritations. they just care about the short gain profit line. DDO is fast becoming a clone of other MMOs out there that use the same kind of cash grab and in your face schemes. so much for trying to immerse myself into a fantasy land trying to escape the real world for a few hours a day.

[KoboldKiller]

I find it interesting that people on these forums still deride a FOR PROFIT COMPANY for doing things to maximize and increase those profits.

[Qezuzu]

+3 tomes are extremely common these days. Compared to +3, +5 tomes only give a +1 stat modifier. It's really not as powerful as people think.


I find it interesting that people on these forums still deride a FOR PROFIT COMPANY for doing things to maximize and increase those profits.

Pay2win isn't a good thing. This isn't P2W though.

[Chai]

I find it interesting that people on these forums still deride a FOR PROFIT COMPANY for doing things to maximize and increase those profits.

They are selling you the very reason to stop playing - after you buy everything there is to play specific content for, including having paid to NOT play other specific ranges of content. :p

Doesnt surprise me at all. All the same arguments will be rehashed, including the rules lawyering of the definition of a slang term must be equal to the sum of each definition of each individual word in the term, stating its not p2w if you cant win etc....as well as the "it makes money" justification - it makes money so it MUST BE good for the game right?

[Hafeal]

I find it interesting that people on these forums still deride a FOR PROFIT COMPANY for doing things to maximize and increase those profits.

Ah, thus I suggested DDO should sell raid loot and be done with it. :rolleyes: I mean, absolutely, WB is "for profit." Therefore, no holds barred, **** the torpedoes, *cough*, I mean game, and let's sell it all. Hey, Turbine is the Master of Their House; speaking of which, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k6uqhKEAOM) is some entertainment to go with that thought.

[Hafeal]

*snip*


Amen brother. You're preachin' the choir here.

[KoboldKiller]

First I never said sell everything, second I never mentioned if it makes money it's good for the game.

My post was specifically aimed at the outrage over a company making a profit.

This is the model that has been proven successful. Turbine in an effort to continue to provide this game and make money at the same time is doing what is necessary.

Would you prefer they do away with the DDO store altogether and go back to the countless hours of grinding? Do you believe that will retain the player base and entice new players? If it would they wouldn't have gone this route in the first place.

Either adapt or get out of the way in the business world.

BTW, as has been said MANY times over, NOBODY forces you to use the store. If you don't like it don't use it. Grind to your hearts content. What someone else chooses to do should have no bearing on you whatsoever.

I think most people find that the items you can buy in the store aren't a P2W at all. Is the ability to buy a +5 tome game breaking compared to grinding it out? Either way you end up with that tome it just takes you longer one way than the other which gains you what? A little more xp or 100 completions. Did that make it better? If so then the game did exactly what it was designed to do, provide and experience for HOWEVER you wish to play.

And yes, I used to be opposed to the DDO store but after time realized it wasn't the end of the world as was predicted.

[Hafeal]

My post was specifically aimed at the outrage over a company making a profit.

Where, in this thread, is the outrage at WB/Turbine making a profit? I certainly never said the WB shouldn't make money with their product. I never even said the DDO Store was bad. Of course, there are multiple ways to create and grow revenue streams in DDO - some pro-consumer and some that lurk on the anti-consumer side.

I have said that I think WB/Turbine has taken the low road in its use of using the Store to drive and increase revenue. I think +5 tomes are part of that problem, along with others as mentioned in other threads - be it such things as disingenuous marketing, poor interface mechanics, obtrusive in-game marketing, less than full product descriptions or changing products and their usefulness after purchase.

Please, take your defensive outrage over attacks against capitalism somewhere else.

[Chai]

First I never said sell everything, second I never mentioned if it makes money it's good for the game.

My post was specifically aimed at the outrage over a company making a profit.

This is the model that has been proven successful. Turbine in an effort to continue to provide this game and make money at the same time is doing what is necessary.

Would you prefer they do away with the DDO store altogether and go back to the countless hours of grinding? Do you believe that will retain the player base and entice new players? If it would they wouldn't have gone this route in the first place.

Either adapt or get out of the way in the business world.

BTW, as has been said MANY times over, NOBODY forces you to use the store. If you don't like it don't use it. Grind to your hearts content. What someone else chooses to do should have no bearing on you whatsoever.

I think most people find that the items you can buy in the store aren't a P2W at all. Is the ability to buy a +5 tome game breaking compared to grinding it out? Either way you end up with that tome it just takes you longer one way than the other which gains you what? A little more xp or 100 completions. Did that make it better? If so then the game did exactly what it was designed to do, provide and experience for HOWEVER you wish to play.

And yes, I used to be opposed to the DDO store but after time realized it wasn't the end of the world as was predicted.

What youve defined adds up to game breaking if you use it to justify every single new rung on the slippery slope however. If you focus on this ONE THING its easy to justify, but if you look at all that can be paid to circumvent, and do so objectively, youll see how game breaking it actually is.

Not to mention when forumites asked a few years ago if the raid timers could be lowered, the specific reason given for the refusal of this was "game balance" - so even the company itself understands that "game breaking" is literally what they are selling. Circumvention of game balance.

Making a profit isnt the issue. Saying its not game breaking however, is hilarious. The sheer level of character power that can be directly purchased continues to increase. The other poster was basically alluding to calling a spade a spade and saying if profit is all the justification that is needed, then they should turn the p2w knob up to 11 and just make it all available in the store then.

[Qaliya]

What I find odd about these perennial "pay to win" / "power creep" complaints is that they are so often aimed at items that really don't seem game-breaking to me at all. Especially these days, an extra +1 to all stats really doesn't mean very much. I can understand the complaint about it cheapening raid loot. But game balance? Not really seeing it.

Meanwhile, the truly game-breaking items are the same old same old stuff that's been in the DDO store for ages. Mana pots are probably the single worst offenders, and they've been there since before I started playing.

[Hawkwier]

If someone else is paying to "win", and making Turbine money, it means there's less chance of them trying to get me to stump up just to play.

I like p2w. Not so much p2p.

[Chai]

What I find odd about these perennial "pay to win" / "power creep" complaints is that they are so often aimed at items that really don't seem game-breaking to me at all. Especially these days, an extra +1 to all stats really doesn't mean very much. I can understand the complaint about it cheapening raid loot. But game balance? Not really seeing it.

Meanwhile, the truly game-breaking items are the same old same old stuff that's been in the DDO store for ages. Mana pots are probably the single worst offenders, and they've been there since before I started playing.

Yeap, mana pots have been discussed quite a few times. Its not like we left those out of the discussions to focus on the new tome being one plus higher than the last tome.

[Qaliya]

I'm just saying that the horses haven't just left the stable, at this point they've disappeared over the horizon.

[Hafeal]

I'm just saying that the horses haven't just left the stable, at this point they've disappeared over the horizon.

I agree - which is why I am sad, not upset. It's funny how this was swept in with little hype with the update - its like they know they have traveled too far to go back now but don't want to embrace it.

I always hope, forlorn lover of the game that I am, that DDO visionaries will turn the page on matters like this and travel the path less trodden. I continue to be disappointed.

[krynnotaur]

If it was at level 1, sure, overpowered by a long shot. Level 19 with nine levels to go, I am just not seeing that much of a problem given the actual dollar cost. IN any event, this is precisely what happens in a table top game when the dm introduces ever expanding item rewards in lieu of genuinely rewarding story arcs and completions in the vain attempt to disguise the problem with bling. I mentioned this when the f2p conversion occurred, as it is a clear moral hazard for the company AND the players, but this is the business model that is keeping this part of atari US from being consumed by atari EU legal ****, I wager so from certain points of view, any 3.5 based game is better than no game at all. Now, the slow evolution towards wow ui and 4.0, those are concerning.

[2Fast4You]

If someone else is paying to "win", and making Turbine money, it means there's less chance of them trying to get me to stump up just to play.

I like p2w. Not so much p2p.

^^^^^^Go play Candy Crush and free up some space on the sever.

We will probably see a loss is raid groups due to +5s now in the store. The game is already too easy, I wouldn't have such a big problem with the **** in the store if the gamewas actually difficult from level 1-cap. The only challange in this game are some EE dungeons and thats just sad

[2Fast4You]

I agree - which is why I am sad, not upset. It's funny how this was swept in with little hype with the update - its like they know they have traveled too far to go back now but don't want to embrace it.

I always hope, forlorn lover of the game that I am, that DDO visionaries will turn the page on matters like this and travel the path less trodden. I continue to be disappointed.

I agree with you 100%

[Qhualor]

^^^^^^Go play Candy Crush and free up some space on the sever.

We will probably see a loss is raid groups due to +5s now in the store. The game is already too easy, I wouldn't have such a big problem with the **** in the store if the gamewas actually difficult from level 1-cap. The only challange in this game are some EE dungeons and thats just sad

/agreed

that's what happens when you cater to certain types of players and people. unfortunately, it affects the other players who liked the challenge the game offered a couple years or so ago.

[PsychoBlonde]

+5 tomes. No doubt +6 on the horizon.

I doubt there will ever be +6 tomes. +5 is the highest inherent bonus you can accrue in standard D&D--you do this either by getting a +5 tome (difficult) or by casting 5 Wish spells in rapid succession. I've been forecasting for some time that +5 tomes were going to wind up in the game somewhere, and woop, there they are.

As for the epic items--D&D epic has always been screwy. Doesn't bother me as long as the quests are fun, which they largely are.

[Qezuzu]

Yeap, mana pots have been discussed quite a few times. Its not like we left those out of the discussions to focus on the new tome being one plus higher than the last tome.

If people want to fund DDO by being an awful caster then they're more than welcome.

Oddly enough, a lot of the new quests of tons of shrines.

[Singular]

I find it interesting that people on these forums still deride a FOR PROFIT COMPANY for doing things to maximize and increase those profits.

I have no problems with them making a profit on this game. I have problems with them doing it through dishonest methods - when you set the mouse clicker on the "reroll for 9 shards" button, or however many shards, you are setting people up to misclick-spend shards. That's not an honest business strategy. And any of the other "pay with astral shards" buttons that do not have any kind of double checking service.

That and putting a shard counter at the bottom of the UI is crass, advertising messages everywhere "if your crappy stats aren't good enough, buy better!" - base, annoying, trite.

We're not stupid. I know my +2 str isn't good and if I buy a +5 tome, it'll be better. So if I want to, I will. If I want that next ship, and I have to pay in AS for it, I know where to buy them. I don't need a bank account reminder at the bottom, saying "this game is run by your money. Please remember that while you engage in our money-created escapism. Thank you. Money."

It really and truly is becoming like Disney World, and that is a sad thing.

[Singular]

/agreed

that's what happens when you cater to certain types of players and people. unfortunately, it affects the other players who liked the challenge the game offered a couple years or so ago.

Hey, first, I'd like to say I often read and respect your posts, hence my reply to you.

Why do you believe less raiding will take place, just b/c of the +5 tomes. Isn't the whole point of getting them so you can be a better player and contribute more to guild runs/group runs/pug runs, etc?

Personally, I really like raids. I like pugging them and I like playing with guild runs where everyone is very good. I can't imagine why I'd stop just b/c I got my +5 tome.

[Qhualor]

Hey, first, I'd like to say I often read and respect your posts, hence my reply to you.

Why do you believe less raiding will take place, just b/c of the +5 tomes. Isn't the whole point of getting them so you can be a better player and contribute more to guild runs/group runs/pug runs, etc?

Personally, I really like raids. I like pugging them and I like playing with guild runs where everyone is very good. I can't imagine why I'd stop just b/c I got my +5 tome.

there are some that run raids just for the fun or because that's what the guild wants to do even if there is nothing you still need from them, but the driving force that a lot of players run raids is for the loot. making +5 tomes available to purchase is 1 less incentive to run raids. we don't really need more reasons to not run quests/raids when there have been enough complaints already about how easy the items are to get or how inferior raid loot is to regular quest loot or how there is no raid in the new expansion. people get what they want, weather from playing or paying, and they move on to something else to do. maybe right now there wouldn't be any real effect on us, but the continuous option of paying instead of playing will eventually effect us down the road. history will repeat itself yet again.

[zDragonz]

With plus 5's being spawned like a rabbit out of a hat, plus 1's and even plus 2's have no market value.

I would not be surprised if at level one we get all plus one tomes as an end reward gear item similar to Imperial Blood.

This game needs to slow down and not follow the trend that is too fast. Every time tomes go on sale in the DDO Store the economy of the game experiences a deflation in the value of a tome that can actually be earned playing the game. Which is what the concept of a game is. I can't blame a company that is for profit wanting to increase profits, but the heart of what Dungeons and Dragons really is, is being sold out and pushed aside. We play a game to feel good about earning something very rare and hard to obtain and we get bragging rights! Putting it on the Store is like a bragging right that is worse than Farting in Church.

Thanks, I think.

[morkahn82]

I often play DDO, have 7 lvl25 in endgame and have got 2 +4 tomes and a bunch +3 tomes from random loot so far. Do not tell me +5 tomes in store is not P2W.

You get tomes, and instant experience in DDO store. It is now time to insert rare epic items and raid loot there. So the players, which do not think this is P2W, can get their items faster(!) than the average player. They just save time, they do not need to play, it is not P2W.

Computer games got worse since the introduction of the F2P model. I understand how games like drakensang do this kind of greedy cash grab tricks and powerful P2W item in store thingy, because the content is free. But you, DDO, are even worse, making a F2P game, where you have to pay for content, make it soooo P2W.

Edit: I forgot, you already installed the shard auction house to distribute powerful epic weapons and items for cash.

[FalseFlag]

Blah blah blah whatever. +5 stat tomes aren't a problem, unlike escalating weapon and abiltiy damage. Here's a treat for you:



Tome of Clear Thought
This heavy book contains instruction on improving memory and logic, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, she gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of tome) to her Intelligence score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book. Because the tome of clear thought provides an inherent bonus, the reader will earn extra skill points when she attains a new level.

Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, miracle or wish; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb.

Tome of Leadership and Influence
This ponderous book details suggestions for persuading and inspiring others, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, he gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of tome) to his Charisma score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book.

Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, miracle or wish; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb.

Tome of Understanding
This thick book contains tips for improving instinct and perception, but entwined within the words is a powerful magical effect. If anyone reads this book, which takes a total of 48 hours over a minimum of six days, she gains an inherent bonus of from +1 to +5 (depending on the type of tome) to her Wisdom score. Once the book is read, the magic disappears from the pages and it becomes a normal book.

Strong evocation (if miracle is used); CL 17th; Craft Wondrous Item, miracle or wish; Price 27,500 gp (+1), 55,000 gp (+2), 82,500 gp (+3), 110,000 gp (+4), 137,500 gp (+5); Cost 1,250 gp + 5,100 XP (+1), 2,500 gp + 10,200 XP (+2), 3,750 gp + 15,300 XP (+3), 5,000 gp + 20,400 XP (+4), 6,250 gp + 25,500 XP (+5); Weight 5 lb.

Wow, look at that. +5 tomes exist in the game this one is supposed to be based on. That means they're only like 8 years late to the party.

[2Fast4You]

Blah blah blah whatever. +5 stat tomes aren't a problem, unlike escalating weapon and abiltiy damage. Here's a treat for you:



Wow, look at that. +5 tomes exist in the game this one is supposed to be based on. That means they're only like 8 years late to the party.


I think you missed the point, It's not the fact they drop in the game it's that you can buy it from the store,as for gold value those of you that play PNP know you don't make out rich like you do in the MMO. As stated by someone above he has 7 lvl 25s and only a few +4s. I myself haven't been luckly enough to pull a +4 or +5 tome on my epic toons. but Id much rather pull one then buy one from the store.
I feel like its the PNP fans or the true DDO fans that disagree with the pay to win, while people who have come from other MMOs embrace it. I guess the next time my character dies in PNP I should hand the DM 5 bucks and say its for a res cake since thats where gaming is headed these days.....

[Forzah]

All the same arguments will be rehashed, including the rules lawyering of the definition of a slang term must be equal to the sum of each definition of each individual word in the term, stating its not p2w if you cant win etc....as well as the "it makes money" justification - it makes money so it MUST BE good for the game right?

It's no sin to break up sentences into several parts by using periods. In this one sentence there are about 6-7 main ideas. By the end of the sentence, the reader will be completely lost. As a rule, try limiting the information to a maximum of three ideas per sentence. This makes your writing easier on the reader and helps to better explain your ideas.

[Soulfurnace]

With plus 5's being spawned like a rabbit out of a hat, plus 1's and even plus 2's have no market value.
They haven't for a long time. My theory of tomes is simple: If I don't need it, offer it to somebody that does. Order of tome offering: Current group, then offer to a friend (if they're new), then a random new player. All for free, of course.
And if I can't find a new player that wants a free tome, I'm scared.
I have sold one tome, and I was honestly desperate for money. (had 3k plat at level 9 on a legend life. Sold it for 50k plat, and hated every piece of plat I got from selling it. Aren't I weird?)

[Dunklerlindwurm]

I am only surprised, that there are still people, who are surprised by the road the game took LONG AGO.

But i am also pretty sure that this is not Turbines fault or own decision. They have to do this because WB or whoever is their sponsor forces them to make money quick.

Why i say this?

I recently played the Beta of Final Fantasy 14 a realm reborn, and as it seems the game is strictly no "f2p" and no pay2win (which i like personally a lot)
The producer stated in several interviews that often "f2p" mmo's have sponsors who want their money back later. And if the developer of the mmo can't pay they have to introduce a money machine like the shops with pay2win items and so on....

What i have seen so far in FF14 reminds me of old school mmo's where content and story goes above fast money making.
I have to support such a game.
So i bought FF14 and my first money to an mmo, since i bought menace of the underdark goes to another game.

[Gremmlynn]

What youve defined adds up to game breaking if you use it to justify every single new rung on the slippery slope however. If you focus on this ONE THING its easy to justify, but if you look at all that can be paid to circumvent, and do so objectively, youll see how game breaking it actually is.

Not to mention when forumites asked a few years ago if the raid timers could be lowered, the specific reason given for the refusal of this was "game balance" - so even the company itself understands that "game breaking" is literally what they are selling. Circumvention of game balance.

Making a profit isnt the issue. Saying its not game breaking however, is hilarious. The sheer level of character power that can be directly purchased continues to increase. The other poster was basically alluding to calling a spade a spade and saying if profit is all the justification that is needed, then they should turn the p2w knob up to 11 and just make it all available in the store then.When you are told you must increase revenues this much every quarter, you just do what it takes to do so as long as you can and worry about long term when it comes. The big question is whether not putting more into the store means WB can find something better to spend DDO's budget on.

[Hawkwier]

^^^^^^Go play Candy Crush and free up some space on the sever.

We will probably see a loss is raid groups due to +5s now in the store. The game is already too easy, I wouldn't have such a big problem with the **** in the store if the gamewas actually difficult from level 1-cap. The only challange in this game are some EE dungeons and thats just sad

Oooh! What a witty reply. Did you think that up all by yourself or was it something someone once read to you?

Way to go. I can't wait for them to bring out +7s now - just to scunner you will be sufficient! :)

[nikos1313]

*opens the chest and finds a +5 Upgrade Tome of Constitution*

- WHAT?! wt f is that?? a +5 tome?! what have u done to the game Turbine??!! not to mention i dont have a +4 to use it...

im leaving this tome in the chest and im out of here..

...said by noone, ever...
...will be said by noone, ever...

[Gkar]

/agreed

that's what happens when you cater to certain types of players and people. unfortunately, it affects the other players who liked the challenge the game offered a couple years or so ago.

Nothing forces you to buy anything from the store, thus your argument that this reduces challenge for those that want it is invalid.

[deuxanes]

I find it interesting that people on these forums still deride a FOR PROFIT COMPANY for doing things to maximize and increase those profits.

That a company must earn money to survive is only natural. On the other hand with the microtransactions via the in-game store the question is rather:

When will they break the game by becoming too greedy?

Obviously the answer for each player will be different due to subjective perception/varying expectations. The worst situation is when some guy/gal in a suit sets arbitrary profit margins and the company has to follow suit, no matter the costs.

Well. It was fun while it lasted. But obviously game developers don't know how to tackle the power creep. And obviously they focus more on microtransactions while the hamster runs inside his hamster wheel.

[Arleanna]

Providing what people want to pay for is not greed it is good customer service. I have no problem spending money on a game I enjoy playing since I have way more money than time. I suspect we will have +6 tomes out when the level cap hits 30. I cant wait :)

[slarden]

For someone that is going to buy tomes, it made alot of sense to offer these at the same time people were re-spec'ing their characters. I think the reason they released these right away is because people were going through lessers anyhow so it made sense (and likely increased sales!)

[Qhualor]

Nothing forces you to buy anything from the store, thus your argument that this reduces challenge for those that want it is invalid.

I was agreeing with the guy that said the only real challenge this game has to offer are some EE quests. surprised you didn't read what I quoted.

[erethizon]

What youve defined adds up to game breaking if you use it to justify every single new rung on the slippery slope however. If you focus on this ONE THING its easy to justify, but if you look at all that can be paid to circumvent, and do so objectively, youll see how game breaking it actually is.

Not to mention when forumites asked a few years ago if the raid timers could be lowered, the specific reason given for the refusal of this was "game balance" - so even the company itself understands that "game breaking" is literally what they are selling. Circumvention of game balance.

Making a profit isnt the issue. Saying its not game breaking however, is hilarious. The sheer level of character power that can be directly purchased continues to increase. The other poster was basically alluding to calling a spade a spade and saying if profit is all the justification that is needed, then they should turn the p2w knob up to 11 and just make it all available in the store then.

Alright, I was going to stay out of this discussion (mainly because the topic is of little interest to me), but I have to ask, what exactly does it mean to be "game breaking"? What break are you referring to exactly? If it is skipping content to get a +5 tome early (by buying it rather than farming for it) I don't see the break. I understand that for me that would be boring. I play to build a stronger character. When there is no further strength for my character to gain the game is over. I recognize that once I am a triple completionist with every +5 stat and skill tome in the game my character is done progressing and there is no point in playing. For that reason I will never buy any tome from the DDO store. Not only that, I refuse to buy tomes from the auction house as well for the same reason (all I am doing is buying a reason to quit the game sooner). So I suppose if I bought everything I ever wanted from the DDO store it would break my game (or more accurately finish my game), but that does not mean it is "game breaking" for everyone else. There are people that enjoy the game more when they have a +5 tome. Some of these people would quit the game before they ran the same raid 100 times to get a +5 tome, but by buying the tome they get to avoid that grind and enjoy the game more. In this case the purchase of the tome from the DDO store is game fixing.

And while we are on the subject, if 3 day raid timers are necessary for game balance, having some small portion of the player base use raid bypass timers is not necessarily game breaking. Perhaps if everyone used the timers it would be "game breaking" but not everyone does. Having a few people progress faster than everyone else is normal in MMOs (usually because those people play more) and is not "game breaking" at all.

[Qhualor]

Alright, I was going to stay out of this discussion (mainly because the topic is of little interest to me), but I have to ask, what exactly does it mean to be "game breaking"? What break are you referring to exactly? If it is skipping content to get a +5 tome early (by buying it rather than farming for it) I don't see the break. I understand that for me that would be boring. I play to build a stronger character. When there is no further strength for my character to gain the game is over. I recognize that once I am a triple completionist with every +5 stat and skill tome in the game my character is done progressing and there is no point in playing. For that reason I will never buy any tome from the DDO store. Not only that, I refuse to buy tomes from the auction house as well for the same reason (all I am doing is buying a reason to quit the game sooner). So I suppose if I bought everything I ever wanted from the DDO store it would break my game (or more accurately finish my game), but that does not mean it is "game breaking" for everyone else. There are people that enjoy the game more when they have a +5 tome. Some of these people would quit the game before they ran the same raid 100 times to get a +5 tome, but by buying the tome they get to avoid that grind and enjoy the game more. In this case the purchase of the tome from the DDO store is game fixing.

And while we are on the subject, if 3 day raid timers are necessary for game balance, having some small portion of the player base use raid bypass timers is not necessarily game breaking. Perhaps if everyone used the timers it would be "game breaking" but not everyone does. Having a few people progress faster than everyone else is normal in MMOs (usually because those people play more) and is not "game breaking" at all.

when something like +5 tomes are released in the store, some people want to buy now instead of playing to get one. some people are luckier than others but they don't want to waste the time trying to get them. naturally people also crave power. something that is hard to get or rare, like +5 tomes, cuts down on some players time to run. the same thing would happen if raid loot was sold in the store. some people would prefer to buy than to play to get it. its pretty obvious that some people would pony up the cash now instead of waiting another year when rare items become easier to get. look at how easy it is to find +1 - +3 tomes are now. I prefer to have a little patience and wait a little longer and eventually I get the same thing the store has to offer, but im an anomaly like that I guess.

progressing faster than others in an MMO is natural. progressing faster than others by means of paid shortcuts is part of MMOs and not natural, but part of the P2W mechanic. DDO is not PVP, but some treat it like it is or they wouldn't pay to get the best and cut down their grind for loot ahead of the natural progression DDO is set up as. progressing faster than others only benefits the player and time is only relevant to the player. he/she sets their own goals and how much time they are willing to invest in the game. there is nothing in DDO that forces us to progress at a certain pace.

one of the things about raid timers was that it helped keep some kind of balance in the game with loot. now DDO is spread out everywhere and it continues to grow and grow. its apparent balance is not an issue with them anymore or they wouldn't sell raid timer bypass. if balance is no longer an issue with them, than why not discontinue the timer? answer is because they can monetize from it. I don't think its fair that I have to be on a 3 day timer, but someone can pay to reset their timer and turn around and run the same raid again right after completing it. I know there have been some players that bought 20 raid timer bypass and farmed certain raids for loot. why should that be ok, but I cant do the same thing without paying? the balance of DDO is upsetting and P2W doesn't help anyone but Turbine.

[count_spicoli]

First I never said sell everything, second I never mentioned if it makes money it's good for the game.

My post was specifically aimed at the outrage over a company making a profit.

This is the model that has been proven successful. Turbine in an effort to continue to provide this game and make money at the same time is doing what is necessary.

Would you prefer they do away with the DDO store altogether and go back to the countless hours of grinding? Do you believe that will retain the player base and entice new players? If it would they wouldn't have gone this route in the first place.

Either adapt or get out of the way in the business world.

BTW, as has been said MANY times over, NOBODY forces you to use the store. If you don't like it don't use it. Grind to your hearts content. What someone else chooses to do should have no bearing on you whatsoever.

I think most people find that the items you can buy in the store aren't a P2W at all. Is the ability to buy a +5 tome game breaking compared to grinding it out? Either way you end up with that tome it just takes you longer one way than the other which gains you what? A little more xp or 100 completions. Did that make it better? If so then the game did exactly what it was designed to do, provide and experience for HOWEVER you wish to play.

And yes, I used to be opposed to the DDO store but after time realized it wasn't the end of the world as was predicted.

This. Man do you guys think the devs who make this game just live in a cardboard box and decide to just make a game for free so people can just play out there without any incoming profit. Ya lets have all the devs live like homeless people and not be able to feed their families so we can have a free game to play. If you think this is a good idea design your own game where it makes no money and you live like a hobo so everyone can sit around playing your game and having fun. NOTHING IN LIFE IS FREE!!!!!!!!!!!! Get a grip. If you don't want to buy a +5 tome don't. Nice thing it is still available in game for you to grind away. As for me I might buy one. Who knows/

[Qhualor]

This. Man do you guys think the devs who make this game just live in a cardboard box and decide to just make a game for free so people can just play out there without any incoming profit. Ya lets have all the devs live like homeless people and not be able to feed their families so we can have a free game to play. If you think this is a good idea design your own game where it makes no money and you live like a hobo so everyone can sit around playing your game and having fun. NOTHING IN LIFE IS FREE!!!!!!!!!!!! Get a grip. If you don't want to buy a +5 tome don't. Nice thing it is still available in game for you to grind away. As for me I might buy one. Who knows/

Actually, there are things they can sell without P2W. Its just selling P2W is another form of profit. They choose to offer things for sale that can bypass game mechanics and balance. I've seen some suggestions by players that are not P2W, but Turbine could easily profit from it. How many times have people suggested selling bags we can name? How many times have people suggested better organized banking? How many timed have people suggested better subs and percs and willing to pay extra for it? There are things they can sell without P2W. They just choose to expand wallets which can make them appear greedy even if its not their intention. Perception says a lot about a business.

[Ryiah]

We will probably see a loss is raid groups due to +5s now in the store.

You are completely ignorant to the real reason we will see a loss of raid groups. I'll give you a hint, it is due to something Turbine did not give us with this expansion.



The only challange in this game are some EE dungeons and thats just sad

So long as it provides challenge what does it matter that one is only 6-man and one is 12-man? What Goes Up on Epic Elite is far more difficult than the raids we have now. In terms of difficulty, the raids we have now are a joke.

[Ironclans_evil_twin]

Alright, I was going to stay out of this discussion (mainly because the topic is of little interest to me), but I have to ask, what exactly does it mean to be "game breaking"? What break are you referring to exactly? If it is skipping content to get a +5 tome early (by buying it rather than farming for it) I don't see the break. I understand that for me that would be boring. I play to build a stronger character. When there is no further strength for my character to gain the game is over. I recognize that once I am a triple completionist with every +5 stat and skill tome in the game my character is done progressing and there is no point in playing. For that reason I will never buy any tome from the DDO store. Not only that, I refuse to buy tomes from the auction house as well for the same reason (all I am doing is buying a reason to quit the game sooner). So I suppose if I bought everything I ever wanted from the DDO store it would break my game (or more accurately finish my game), but that does not mean it is "game breaking" for everyone else. There are people that enjoy the game more when they have a +5 tome. Some of these people would quit the game before they ran the same raid 100 times to get a +5 tome, but by buying the tome they get to avoid that grind and enjoy the game more. In this case the purchase of the tome from the DDO store is game fixing.

And while we are on the subject, if 3 day raid timers are necessary for game balance, having some small portion of the player base use raid bypass timers is not necessarily game breaking. Perhaps if everyone used the timers it would be "game breaking" but not everyone does. Having a few people progress faster than everyone else is normal in MMOs (usually because those people play more) and is not "game breaking" at all.

Very well said, I've been saying much the same thing myself, the truth is that Forums tend to polarize everything into two sides and then divide everyone up to demonize the side they disagree with most.

The problem is reality does not work like that. There are all sorts of players who kept playing DDO because they bought a 50% XP pot and they caught back up to their buddies or guildies. Bought 7 raid timers and finally got their item and stopped repeating the raid that was making them want to quit playing. Bought a +4 supreme tome that allowed them to make a complex multi-stat build that wouldn't work otherwise where the lack of being able to realize the build discouraged them enough to not feel like playing. Indeed I'm sick of Shroud and want 2 GS items on most characters, so I buy the matts now and blanks (thanks for the blanks Vint) and I run the character only enough to get the shards they need. By the time I have the shards I have that discouraged "why am I even playing this game if I'm not having fun, lets check out <some other game>" feeling back. I know this feeling well. It goes away when I'm playing stuff I WANT TO RUN. On the other hand is hits like a ton of bricks when I am playing stuff I DON'T WANT TO BUT FEEL REQUIRED TO by the difficulty of the game.

Lastly As I've said more than a few times now, I have 5 or so characters that I might consider "finished" to the point where I rarely dust them off. When I got Pinion on my AA I did not quit playing... I rolled an Alt and started over, a lot of people TR instead of rolling an alt. Either way they keep playing. This idea that most, or even a significant percentage of players are "ONE AND DONE" with DDO and the faster they "buy their way to victory" is IMO a very unsupported, simplistic and in fact highly counter intuitive claim, simply due to how often we see "character design and variety" and multi TR'ing cited as a major strength of DDO and even called "endgame".

It is important for the P2W watchdogs to realize that P2W might possibly (no way to know for sure) actually keep more people PLAYING than the power gamers it chases away.

I would bet it's not even close in favor of keeping people playing. But I can only claim that as purely opinion. I have no facts to back it up. But neither do the "I won whats next" crowd.

Now Chai is sure to say "but the data suggests that people leave between updates, due to having gotten all the stuff they wanted" and certainly some of the between update attrition is due to that. But I believe the major cause is actually repetition and boredom of the same stuff over and over even without accounting for some amount of frustration over NOT GETTING the stuff they want, like +5 tomes. Meta gaming and frustration level's raising with repetition cause people to go find something fun to do even IF THEY HAVEN'T GOTTEN WHAT THEY WANT. Meta gaming (in a nutshell the base design weakness that causes people to stop playing IMO) has nothing to do with P2W and frustration levels raising with repetition are directly curable by letting people buy loot (BtcoE on the AH) and bypass timers to "get it over with" or directly buy it (+5 tomes) or catch up to friends (XP pots). (BTW this is why I am okay with raid loot in the store, Turbine will never do it, but it wouldn't discourage me in the slightest)

If Chai wants to submit that the average gamer is going to repeat TOD or FOT for a +5 tome 200 times until he gets it I will be happy to laugh at this totally improbable claim. I play 5,6 sometimes 7 hours a night, while running my own business when I'm not sleeping, count me as: an obsessed but have a job gamer. I can't get 20th completions in most raids before I'm bored of it or something new comes out. I buy stuff so I can just HAVE FUN PLAYING, and not repeat and farm stuff in my precious gaming time. The small numbers of power gamers who ARE willing to do that, and according to Chai's argument: are also going to be discouraged and leave the game shortly after they spend $25 dollars to buy +5 tomes, are I suspect not numerous enough to matter from a business standpoint. When some number of obsessed-but-have-a-job/average-gamer/normal/relaxed/part time/casual players will keep playing because they bought stuff that helped them have fun, keep up with buddies or get past their frustration point...

[Qhualor]

and the thing that the people who support P2W because it "keeps the lights" on and "keeps the interest of players to continue playing" seem to overlook that these "irritations" are put in place by the same company that sells products to bypass a players displeasure with the game. these same people who support P2W overlook the fact that a company does not need to plug P2W into their game for profit when they can still profit in other ways and still have fair drop rates and ease of grind. these same supporters of P2W overlook the fact that there is a reason for replaying the same quest which makes for what is called grind because a company can not release enough content and needs to "keep the carrot dangling on a string in front of our faces" to keep player interest.

the reality is that P2W is the easiest and biggest producer of profit for any gaming company. a lot can be said about a company that started out with little to no P2W and has increased it more and more while at the same time has changed many aspects of the game itself to the point that challenge has been nerfed. what kind of players do you think they are really trying to attract? nothing wrong with a company making money, but to resort to P2W tactics that alters their game drastically..

[Ungood]

Right now, the Tomes drop in the game and thus there is no real problem here, nor should anyone see a problem. The only time a problem exists, is when Turbine requires us buy an item from the store to have the best items in the game.

Otherwise, What did you really expect? Did you honestly think that your game time was worth more then cash to a Company that has employees to pay LOL!

As for raid items in the store, as cool as that sounds, I don't think it will never happen, not because of some silly ideology that players might spout, but because most (if not all) raids exist only in paid packs, and thus selling the items directly would run the risk of reducing the sale of the packs, bypass timers, and guest passes. So, I don't see that happening any time soon.

[DDOisFree]

So much whining over a mere extra +1 stat boost in the cash store. Do carry on crying a river about how you can no longer beat DDO without buying cash store tomes due to how bad you ar at the game.

The tomes in the store are nothing more than shortcuts. And yes, I don't get why Torcs, Madstone Boots and such things cant be directly sold in there as well.

[zDragonz]

So much whining over a mere extra +1 stat boost in the cash store. Do carry on crying a river about how you can no longer beat DDO without buying cash store tomes due to how bad you ar at the game.

The tomes in the store are nothing more than shortcuts. And yes, I don't get why Torcs, Madstone Boots and such things cant be directly sold in there as well.

I would not play this game if I was able to buy everything. What is the point of playing this game then. Oh I get it! Face palm. It is possible to buy the best gear in this game and totally understand how to play it well! Buying gear is far better than our talent!

Morale is: If you buy epic gear and epic stuff from the store you better know how to use it and not just be a wanna be who bought the game!

Careful where you tread on the slippery slope of the talent behind the keyboard vs. someone who just started and thinks they are good at the game because they bought their level and gear. I am willing to bet a veteran to this game would be able to walk circles around someone who is new to the game and has better gear who bought it overnight.


This is what the game has come to. Those who have and are talented and are seasoned to the game vs. those who have and are newbs.

I dunno just ranting!

[SiliconScout]

We will have +8 tomes by Christmas 2014. I am calling it.

And it's no more game breaking than the powe creep that seems to be everythwere else right now. In fact getting them to +5 probably still doesn't keep them up with the new loot and enhancements.

been watching this happen for 4 years now and it's not at all satisfying to say "told you so" to the guildies who said it would never get that bad and then left when it did. Not satisfying at all.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

I find it interesting that people on these forums still deride a FOR PROFIT COMPANY for doing things to maximize and increase those profits.

Because long term profits are better than short term profits. When a developer so openly embraces power creep, it usually indicates they have no long term plan or direction.

[erethizon]

I would not play this game if I was able to buy everything. What is the point of playing this game then. Oh I get it! Face palm. It is possible to buy the best gear in this game and totally understand how to play it well! Buying gear is far better than our talent!

Morale is: If you buy epic gear and epic stuff from the store you better know how to use it and not just be a wanna be who bought the game!

Careful where you tread on the slippery slope of the talent behind the keyboard vs. someone who just started and thinks they are good at the game because they bought their level and gear. I am willing to bet a veteran to this game would be able to walk circles around someone who is new to the game and has better gear who bought it overnight.


This is what the game has come to. Those who have and are talented and are seasoned to the game vs. those who have and are newbs.

I dunno just ranting!

Of course well-skilled veterans are better than new players with purchased gear. Why wouldn't it be so? The stuff that is sold in the store is nice but it does not make up for learning to play the game and no one ever said that it did. I know I would much prefer the new player in my group to have a full set of +5 tomes because it will make his character a little better. Not much better, but a little. No harm in that.

[2pleasegimmie]

I find it interesting that people on these forums still deride a FOR PROFIT COMPANY for doing things to maximize and increase those profits.

Corporations are world and society-destroying loose cannons. It's time real people stopped accepting their rampant sociopathic behavior as an acceptable norm.

The idea that you can't make money without being a POS about the quality of your product, and/or how you treat your customers is also a pretty tired logical fallacy.

[DDOisFree]

I would not play this game if I was able to buy everything. What is the point of playing this game then. Oh I get it! Face palm. It is possible to buy the best gear in this game and totally understand how to play it well! Buying gear is far better than our talent!

Morale is: If you buy epic gear and epic stuff from the store you better know how to use it and not just be a wanna be who bought the game!

Careful where you tread on the slippery slope of the talent behind the keyboard vs. someone who just started and thinks they are good at the game because they bought their level and gear. I am willing to bet a veteran to this game would be able to walk circles around someone who is new to the game and has better gear who bought it overnight.


This is what the game has come to. Those who have and are talented and are seasoned to the game vs. those who have and are newbs.

I dunno just ranting!

The point of playing the game is because you enjoy playing the game, not running a quest or raid over a 100 times just to get one specific item.

I play the game well enough. I bought all my tomes and augments off the DDO store because doing so is so much less grind grind grind repeat repeat repeat needed to do in the game.

Theres no skill in repeating raids over and over again just to get loot, once you've done it a few times and gotten familiar with it, it doesnt make you any better or worse a player if you find a +5 tome in a chest, or buy it on the cash store.

Also say you run Evon6 100+ times, and never once see a +5 tome. Some first time newbie joins your group and pulls a +5 tome on his first run. Oh wow, he got a +5 tome without paying for it, therefore he must be a more skillful player than you or me.... /sacasm.

People arguing about these cash store tomes have incredibly weak logic to back their arguments. Also if you dont want to buy everything on the cash store because it would give you no point to play the game, then dont buy anything on the cash store!!!

You have the choice to play however you prefer, do as you will with the game. I prefer playing the game with the least possible grind to get geared as well as all the lucky people pulling shiny drops with far less effort than I've already put into the raids and end game quests.

+5 int / cha tomes for my casters? Yes please, I'll buy those right away because DCs matter to me so much. Cash store tomes for other stats? Maybe Con for extra HP if I feel like it, especially after needing to make up for dropping toughness on all my characters now, but other stats no thanks, they arent important enough.

[DDOisFree]

Also since people keep on mentioning it, DDO is absolutely not P2W!

You can beat the game without buying anything more than the quest packs or subscribing to the game. You dont need to buy any gear, tomes, consumables or anything to beat the game the same way that people did before the cash store, and you can acquire the items in game with luck as well.

The DDO cash store is 'Pay for SHORTCUTS', not 'Pay to win'. Learn the difference and stop whinging over it.

To clarify - 'P2W' games are games which you cannot actually win / beat without paying for gear / items on the cash store, there are lots of these silly games out there in the F2P MMO market. DDO absolutely is not one of them.

[Rubbinns]

Buying tomes is nothing. You can now pay 5 astral shards for elite completion of a saga quest. About 50 shards nets you 100k xp?

[Qhualor]

Also since people keep on mentioning it, DDO is absolutely not P2W!

You can beat the game without buying anything more than the quest packs or subscribing to the game. You dont need to buy any gear, tomes, consumables or anything to beat the game the same way that people did before the cash store, and you can acquire the items in game with luck as well.

The DDO cash store is 'Pay for SHORTCUTS', not 'Pay to win'. Learn the difference and stop whinging over it.

To clarify - 'P2W' games are games which you cannot actually win / beat without paying for gear / items on the cash store, there are lots of these silly games out there in the F2P MMO market. DDO absolutely is not one of them.

that's right. you don't need to, but try telling that to some people. in the end of any argument though, "its my money and I will do with it what I want".

BTW, welcome back to posting on the forums. your posts are always amusing to me.

[Qhualor]

Buying tomes is nothing. You can now pay 5 astral shards for elite completion of a saga quest. About 50 shards nets you 100k xp?

I want to see the argument on how this is not P2W.

[Qhualor]

Of course well-skilled veterans are better than new players with purchased gear. Why wouldn't it be so? The stuff that is sold in the store is nice but it does not make up for learning to play the game and no one ever said that it did. I know I would much prefer the new player in my group to have a full set of +5 tomes because it will make his character a little better. Not much better, but a little. No harm in that.

skill in DDO has had a serious drop off for quite awhile now. I don't have high expectations or I wouldn't pug most of the time. paid for gear and paid for tomes don't make up for lack of skill. this is 1 of the bigger reasons why some people have been moving towards soloing or running with guild and less with pugs. selling items in the store doesn't actually help a player be better. the learning curve is seriously lacking in DDO.

[Gkar]

I want to see the argument on how this is not P2W.

Because when you buy it you don't win the game, not even close. In fact, given the statflation in this game, the difference between +1 and +5 if pretty trivial most of the time.


skill in DDO has had a serious drop off for quite awhile now. I don't have high expectations or I wouldn't pug most of the time. paid for gear and paid for tomes don't make up for lack of skill. this is 1 of the bigger reasons why some people have been moving towards soloing or running with guild and less with pugs. selling items in the store doesn't actually help a player be better. the learning curve is seriously lacking in DDO.

See, even you think its not P2W since the tomes don't matter much lol

[Gkar]

Buying tomes is nothing. You can now pay 5 astral shards for elite completion of a saga quest.

Really? How's that work? (I haven't been back since the update)

[Extispex]

The point of playing the game is because you enjoy playing the game, not running a quest or raid over a 100 times just to get one specific item.

People arguing about these cash store tomes have incredibly weak logic to back their arguments. Also if you don't want to buy everything on the cash store because it would give you no point to play the game, then don't buy anything on the cash store!!!


This is exactly how I feel too. :)

I just ignore the store when I play. Pulling a tome from a chest is just as exciting today as it was before to me. Why would I care if someone else buys a +5 supreme tome? It doesn't change or lessen my game experience in any way.

I have only used the store to buy inventory and bank space so far. (And a rez cake that one time :eek:.)

[era42]

If it was at level 1, sure, overpowered by a long shot. Level 19 with nine levels to go, I am just not seeing that much of a problem given the actual dollar cost. IN any event, this is precisely what happens in a table top game when the dm introduces ever expanding item rewards in lieu of genuinely rewarding story arcs and completions in the vain attempt to disguise the problem with bling. I mentioned this when the f2p conversion occurred, as it is a clear moral hazard for the company AND the players, but this is the business model that is keeping this part of atari US from being consumed by atari EU legal ****, I wager so from certain points of view, any 3.5 based game is better than no game at all. Now, the slow evolution towards wow ui and 4.0, those are concerning.

It's not the power level per se, it's about the effort to acquire upgrades to your gear. Spend a lot of effort farming raids and/or high level content to get those rare rare +5:s. Or just buy them at DDO Store.

This leads to the question, why run the high level content in the first place? Or raids? Loot? Mostly voided by random items. Tomes? Voided by Store. Exp? Just run vons, dust, ID, rusted blades once or twice every day, and continue ignoring actual interesting quests.

Sure, I'm sure it increases short-term sales, but breaking the mousewheel of trying to get rewards leads to fewer quest repetitions, less parties, boredom to the game and eventual dwindling of players. Sure, as a profit company they are free to sell pretty much anything, and as a customer I'm allowed to complain, offer ideas, buy the stuff or stop playing. Right now the last option looks extremely interesting, even probable. All epic content seems bland now, that the exp in new quests sucks, raids have no point (even after they fix 20th), and even aiming for those +5:s seem pointless. TR remains fun, but even that gets tedious if there's no epic stuff to break the cycle.

PS: just look at requirements for epic crits, epic toughness, epic archery and epic sneak attack. Then explain to me again how that +5 tome isn't a big improvement for the 20+ levels.

[Qhualor]

Because when you buy it you don't win the game, not even close. In fact, given the statflation in this game, the difference between +1 and +5 if pretty trivial most of the time.



See, even you think its not P2W since the tomes don't matter much lol

I see people still use the argument "its only +1 more". we are up to +5 more. the increase in points has nothing to do with P2W, at least my arguments don't, its more about the P2W effects it has on the game as a whole. and no, im not just talking about what 1 person does. buying tomes doesn't improve player skill, but it doesn't help make a player any better. the character itself might be a bit stronger, but the player still needs to actually play the game to acquire any kind of skill.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

If it looks like a money grab, and it feels like a money grab... but I can see some additional reasoning:

1. Increased level cap. I assume +5 tomes apply at level 20? I haven't really looked; but if that's the case I'm not as concerned. I still outfit the occasional new toon with +1 tomes (I'm lazy, sue me) and nothing more, and they do fine. I'm not running them in EE gianthold stuff, but I'm also not running my 8th life, geared to the nines, maxed-ED main there either, so maybe it helps with that?

2. Power creep. I'm not sure about this one; from the numbers, I'd assumed that rather than try to keep a handle on it Tubine has openly embraced it. Future be damned! In practice, either the numbers aren't working as advertised or I haven't quite hit that sweet spot with gear yet.

3. 4th edition creep. It's obvious that we're slowing being adjusted from 3.5 to 4th from the terminology alone. But the math works differently. In 4th, you adjust two ability scores instead of just one every few levels, and it works there because everything else seems to scale ridiculously. Sort of like epic mobs. Anyway, if that's the case then the value of stat tomes is diminished overall.

Not that it makes it any easier a pill to swallow, but at some point crying "p2w" sounds like "I can't afford it, so it's not fair!"

[Desdemonte]

The point of playing the game is because you enjoy playing the game, not running a quest or raid over a 100 times just to get one specific item.

I play the game well enough. I bought all my tomes and augments off the DDO store because doing so is so much less grind grind grind repeat repeat repeat needed to do in the game.

Theres no skill in repeating raids over and over again just to get loot, once you've done it a few times and gotten familiar with it, it doesnt make you any better or worse a player if you find a +5 tome in a chest, or buy it on the cash store.

Also say you run Evon6 100+ times, and never once see a +5 tome. Some first time newbie joins your group and pulls a +5 tome on his first run. Oh wow, he got a +5 tome without paying for it, therefore he must be a more skillful player than you or me.... /sacasm.

People arguing about these cash store tomes have incredibly weak logic to back their arguments. Also if you dont want to buy everything on the cash store because it would give you no point to play the game, then dont buy anything on the cash store!!!

You have the choice to play however you prefer, do as you will with the game. I prefer playing the game with the least possible grind to get geared as well as all the lucky people pulling shiny drops with far less effort than I've already put into the raids and end game quests.

+5 int / cha tomes for my casters? Yes please, I'll buy those right away because DCs matter to me so much. Cash store tomes for other stats? Maybe Con for extra HP if I feel like it, especially after needing to make up for dropping toughness on all my characters now, but other stats no thanks, they arent important enough.


Also since people keep on mentioning it, DDO is absolutely not P2W!

You can beat the game without buying anything more than the quest packs or subscribing to the game. You dont need to buy any gear, tomes, consumables or anything to beat the game the same way that people did before the cash store, and you can acquire the items in game with luck as well.

The DDO cash store is 'Pay for SHORTCUTS', not 'Pay to win'. Learn the difference and stop whinging over it.

To clarify - 'P2W' games are games which you cannot actually win / beat without paying for gear / items on the cash store, there are lots of these silly games out there in the F2P MMO market. DDO absolutely is not one of them.


QFT

I'm someone who has taken a break from the game. I'm also someone who ran over 80 Titans for a chattering ring. Then the AC pass made that ring worthless. I wasted a lot of my life and experienced a lot of frustration getting that ring. That is only 1 of many items I farmed for my 3 main characters. Abashi sets, belt of mroranon, stuff out of Carnival. You all know the list.

Then I alpha tested the ENH pass. I was infuriated. It was the straw that broke my back. I had just finished the 13th life on my necro nuking sorc. I left.

Want to know why I left? Because after farming all that ****, I couldn't believe how Turbone could trivialize it so much. The gear and whatnot from eveningstar was superior to everything I had spent years working for. It took maybe 2 weeks to get what I needed. If it didn't drop for me, I bought it off the AH or I traded for it.

This power creep and the ease of acquiring superior gear is what will kill the game. This trend has been blown sky high with U19. The random drops are mental. The Quest items are so powerful, with not a big difference between EN and EE. Added to that is the introduction of selling things for shards. To me, this just feels dirty. A person can now pay real cash for all but the most powerful things in the game. It is a fine line between what now exists and legalized gold selling. One could argue that it *is* the same thing, if you are selling an item for shards and using that money to then buy in game items you would have used cash for. The way they cover their asses is to not (currently) have a cash out system for shards. I don't think even Turbine will go that far. The economy has sadly been monetized and standardized to real world $.

A +5 tome in the store is not going to make an iota of difference in the grand scheme of things.

Everybody keeps screaming "pay to win" but what are you winning? Aren't you just buying other stuff to make your character a bit more powerful? All the stuff you need to "win" are already ridiculously easy to acquire in game. If not by running content, then by simply being around and running epics for a couple years to have the plat to buy the **** you want.

I dont get people who are ****ing and moaning about p2w. If you don't want to buy the stuff then don't! What kills me are the people who cry out against it but still go and do it then get powerful and bored then leave the game.

Even with all this activity that truly sickens me going on, I still don't see any if it as paying to win. It is paying to convenience yourself to not have to play parts of the game you despise. Hell yes I loved the ottos stone for one of my cleric lives. Would I spend the kind of money they go for? No frigging way.

Turbine has a tough job- they need to keep adding cool items to keep us interested but be careful of power creep. They also need to figure out how to attract and retain new players in a very competitive MMO market. This is a mature MMO with a large part of the player base in the fine tuning stage and not the acquisition stage. They need to evolve with the market and we have to evolve with them for the game to persist. They are providing services that we decide how we want to use.

We make our own decisions how much we want to pay to convenience ourselves. The only way *any* of this will ultimately kill the game is if all the "pay to whiners" start *****ing about how easy the game is and the developers listen to them. The people who circumvent too much of the tweaking process and get to "complete" too quickly need to just **** and leave. Some people cannot control their own negative cycles but that should not affect anybody else.

[Chai]

I want to see the argument on how this is not P2W.

What youre going to see posted is more hilarity where people are trying to convince you that slang in the English language is defined by the sum of the definition of each word in the term. Then they will say because you cant "win" its not 'pay to win". I grin each time I see this, because every single native English speaker uses a plethora of slang terms on a daily basis which does not even remotely come close to meaning the sum of each definition of each word in the term. Arguing its not pay to win using this justification is like saying we cant drive on the highway to New York, because theres no low-way, and New York is neither New or York, since York is in the United kingdom, which isn't even United on all issues, nor has it been a Kingdom for quite some time now. :p

Im also convinced that each and every person who has been trying to rules lawyer the definition this way for the past 4 years completely understands what the term means when someone uses it, and is only trying to bog the discussion down in a disruptive form of analysis paralysis where every single slang term and use of grammar will be cited as being incorrect. Some would rather see the discussion caught up in this type of disruption for multiple pages, due to the fact that they have no real refutation of the actual stance you are taking on the subject.

If refutation existed, you would see it and hear it, but since it doesn't, the two most common things you will see is "if you cant win you cant pay to win" and "how does it affect you if someone else buys tomes" - in attempt to try to turn it into some personal discussion, using the straw man argument that you must be jealous of those who buy tomes.

We do see who this affects however, and its the very same people who pay to win in the first place. This update just dropped a bunch of random loot on us which has +10 stats, as well as +9 to hit and damage and more spell power and crit chance than could be obtained even in EE quests and raids previously. A lot of people paid to accelerate their acquisition of raid loot not too long ago, and most of that has been invalidated by the new random loot gen stuff coming out of chests in slayer zones. Ive already seen a few comments where people are irritated by this, trying to push the idea that since they paid RL$ to buy loot or paid to grind the raid many times over in a much shorter amount of time than they could have otherwise, that this means their loot obtained this way should not be invalidated so easily. What did they think was going to happen when the last cash cow dried up? Turbine wasn't going to sweeten the carrot to keep the cash flow coming in?

So the argument of how does it affect me....you...or anyone else when some random player uses the p2w system? It doesn't. It affects those who pay rather than play in the first place. Im playing a game I enjoy playing. They are paying to acquire the best loot the fastest, only to watch that loot become mediocre shortly thereafter, and then have the new loot they can pay to obtain showcased before them.

[Qhualor]

QFT

I'm someone who has taken a break from the game. I'm also someone who ran over 80 Titans for a chattering ring. Then the AC pass made that ring worthless. I wasted a lot of my life and experienced a lot of frustration getting that ring. That is only 1 of many items I farmed for my 3 main characters. Abashi sets, belt of mroranon, stuff out of Carnival. You all know the list.

Then I alpha tested the ENH pass. I was infuriated. It was the straw that broke my back. I had just finished the 13th life on my necro nuking sorc. I left.

Want to know why I left? Because after farming all that ****, I couldn't believe how Turbone could trivialize it so much. The gear and whatnot from eveningstar was superior to everything I had spent years working for. It took maybe 2 weeks to get what I needed. If it didn't drop for me, I bought it off the AH or I traded for it.

This power creep and the ease of acquiring superior gear is what will kill the game. This trend has been blown sky high with U19. The random drops are mental. The Quest items are so powerful, with not a big difference between EN and EE. Added to that is the introduction of selling things for shards. To me, this just feels dirty. A person can now pay real cash for all but the most powerful things in the game. It is a fine line between what now exists and legalized gold selling. One could argue that it *is* the same thing, if you are selling an item for shards and using that money to then buy in game items you would have used cash for. The way they cover their asses is to not (currently) have a cash out system for shards. I don't think even Turbine will go that far. The economy has sadly been monetized and standardized to real world $.

A +5 tome in the store is not going to make an iota of difference in the grand scheme of things.

Everybody keeps screaming "pay to win" but what are you winning? Aren't you just buying other stuff to make your character a bit more powerful? All the stuff you need to "win" are already ridiculously easy to acquire in game. If not by running content, then by simply being around and running epics for a couple years to have the plat to buy the **** you want.

I dont get people who are ****ing and moaning about p2w. If you don't want to buy the stuff then don't! What kills me are the people who cry out against it but still go and do it then get powerful and bored then leave the game.

Even with all this activity that truly sickens me going on, I still don't see any if it as paying to win. It is paying to convenience yourself to not have to play parts of the game you despise. Hell yes I loved the ottos stone for one of my cleric lives. Would I spend the kind of money they go for? No frigging way.

Turbine has a tough job- they need to keep adding cool items to keep us interested but be careful of power creep. They also need to figure out how to attract and retain new players in a very competitive MMO market. This is a mature MMO with a large part of the player base in the fine tuning stage and not the acquisition stage. They need to evolve with the market and we have to evolve with them for the game to persist. They are providing services that we decide how we want to use.

We make our own decisions how much we want to pay to convenience ourselves. The only way *any* of this will ultimately kill the game is if all the "pay to whiners" start *****ing about how easy the game is and the developers listen to them. The people who circumvent too much of the tweaking process and get to "complete" too quickly need to just **** and leave. Some people cannot control their own negative cycles but that should not affect anybody else.

im confused as to what you think P2W really is? its not personal and its not about caring if you paid for a tome and I actually looted one. you say P2WAH feels dirty to you, but aren't tomes also found on P2WAH? any reasonable argument about P2W isn't about jealousy. its about the affects it has on the game. when people talk about it being a personal issue they just show they really don't know what P2W really means and their argument is meaningless.

[Ungood]

I want to see the argument on how this is not P2W.

This only works if you already did the quest, so basically what you are paying for is not needing to run the quest -again- if anything this is more a gouge then a P2W.

[Ungood]

im confused as to what you think P2W really is?

P2W is when you have to use cash to get something better then what can be earned in game, anything other then that definition is purely hyperbola.

[Chai]

P2W is when you have to use cash to get something better then what can be earned in game, anything other then that definition is purely hyperbola.

Ability to earn in game is a mere technicality. People may decide that it bothers them less due to this technicality, but the technicality itself has nothing to do with the widely accepted definition of the term. Four years later and people are still trying to rules lawyer the definition of a widely accepted slang term. Why? Because no refutation of the logical stances of those using the widely accepted term regarding how it affects the game, exists. If it did, the argument about the definition itself would have ceased 3 years 11 months and 25 days ago, and that refutation would have been presented.

[Desdemonte]

im confused as to what you think P2W really is? its not personal and its not about caring if you paid for a tome and I actually looted one. you say P2WAH feels dirty to you, but aren't tomes also found on P2WAH? any reasonable argument about P2W isn't about jealousy. its about the affects it has on the game. when people talk about it being a personal issue they just show they really don't know what P2W really means and their argument is meaningless.

I know what you and everyone else means when they refer to p2w. What I am saying is that there are much larger issues here than something as meagre as +5 tomes in the store. I also understand how people fear making items too easy to get will hurt the PUG scene, which is a large part of the game. Many people will still refuse to purchase tomes though, and run their raids.

You may also not understand what I'm saying because I am not really strongly arguing one side of this particular debate over the other. It appears that many people on these forums only see in black or white.

Something had to be done about horrid loot drops from raids, which have traditionally given the best in slot gear. Turbine went way overboard in their solutions. They have also made far too big sweeping changes to the game too quickly.

I am trying to point out that with all the item changes in game, I really don't see how buying tomes is that big of a deal. Nothing in the store really falls into that category. Maybe raid timer bypasses, but IMHO if someone wants to blow that kind of money to get through their 20 completions faster, all the power to them.

I am disgusted with the asah not necessarily because of how it affects me, but more because I see absolutely ******** real dollar values being placed on game items. As it already is, perusing the AH annoys the **** out of me because of the moronic plat prices there. That being said, there is now a direct link between real money and plat. This *does* affect me in how I trade rare goods for other goods. In the end though, I truly don't believe people are going to pay some of the exorbitant fees I see. But again, if they do, all the power to them- a fool and his money are soon parted, right? As long as they dont start *****ing about the game being too easy, I don't give a ****. The trade scene will still be the main way high end stuff changes hands.

People need to stop seeing this as pay to win, but rather a way for a person to pay to better control his own time and lessen the grind in DDO. Or "pay to make game easier" For some. Other people are so obsessive, they will spend a lot of money to not play the game and get all the wonderful things they want. Unfortunately that may hasten their getting bored with the game and leaving. It may also be what keeps them around. Its not up to you or me to understand or judge them for their actions. what business is it of ours? There are two camps in this argument and they can't seem to see beyond their own opinions. I personally know high end players who burned out back when epics were in their first iteration. Maybe what we have now would have kept them around. I know high end players who have spent lots of money ("paid to win"), finished their characters, had nothing left to do and left. I know high end players who did it the hard way, saw all their work be trivialized by the first expansion, and left. Their leaving and their reason has no effect on you or anybody other than the friends who will miss them. There are lots of reasons for people leaving. Turbine is giving people as many reasons as they can to stay. It's our choice what to do with those things. Different people get satisfaction from the game in different ways. Like going old school and beating EE "What Goes Up" under levelled and under geared. Some want to go in buffed to the nines and roll it. I did it the other day using a combination of the two- we were way underlevelled. But decently geared and had a druid with a great earthquake and Beguile. Guess what? it took us a couple hours and Beguile was definitely not an easy button for the end fight. We "paid to win" by chugging SP pots like they were water to parched men in a desert. But we figured things out, discovered a couple tricks and figured out some good strategies. It was a frigging blast! Now we want to get to level, buff ourselves to the nines and go back to steamroll the effers for some payback. And see if we can do it without pots..... Other people get their kicks from simply collecting all the named **** they can. We all play in different ways to have fun in different ways.

None of this p2w argument really affects how we play our own game. Sure it may make for a crummy PUG from time to time, but there are already lots of those anyway and you can drop any time. The only way this "p2w" thing would really affect the game as a whole is if the devs make content that is simply too difficult to beat without having all the top gear that would be impossible to get without shortcutting. They definitely have not done that yet. Instead they gave us all raid loot that drops under the guise of random items in trash chests. Excessive grind is not fun. Some grind is necessary to maintain the player base. The store is not what the problem is- it's finding the right amount of grind that the majority will be content with. If people want to spend their money to lessen that grind a bit, whatevs......

[Tscheuss]

P2W is when you have to use cash to get something better then what can be earned in game, anything other then that definition is purely hyperbola.

So that's why some people go ballistic about it. :p

[Ungood]

Ability to earn in game is a mere technicality.

No it's not. It is the keystone of the entire premise of what is P2W and what is not.


People may decide that it bothers them less due to this technicality, but the technicality itself has nothing to do with the widely accepted definition of the term. Four years later and people are still trying to rules lawyer the definition of a widely accepted slang term. Why?

Because there are a lot of people who are wrong and unwilling to admit that. The Widely and originally used definition of P2W came about in war games, hence the idea of Pay to Win, and was used in only 2 ways.

The first being: Where people could simply pay money and win any battle or fight.

This is really where the idea of P2W came from. You could just "Buy a Win" and this term is pretty much still exclusive to war and PvP games and has zero place among any MMO I have played, unless there is a PvP MMO where I can use cash purchases to circumvent losing the fight.

Now, this does exist in DDO in the forum of: Raise Cakes, Healing Potions, Mana Pots, and the like being open in the store, because I can use money to not have to lose the quest. Notice that is not what this topic is taking about at all, on any level. I would like to add that even this type of P2W is somewhat limited in DDO because you can't use raise cakes in raid.

The second being: You needed to pay cash to get the best stuff:

Ok this seems to be the big one, and makes grown people cry the mantra that "I need to pay money for it so it's P2W". In fact, it seems that when people spout the P2W whines, it really boils down to the idea they they can buy something from the store.

Well the truth is, if you don't need to pay money for it, it's not P2W.

The reality behind this term and use is that as long as you can get in freely playing the game it's not P2W, it rise came about (again, in War Games and PvP games) which would require that you have specific cash purchased only items to allow you to make the best troops in the game, or had to pay money to get the best gear/items. This if you wanted any hope to win, you had to pay for it.

The closest this exists in DDO is adventure packs.

And yet you don't see people making a fuss that you had to buy Giant Hold to get Madstone boots.

As for Tomes, they don't even blip on the radar of what is P2W.

[Ungood]

So that's why some people go ballistic about it. :p

Yes.

real pay to win has a deep seated hate among the gaming population, which is why some nubs use it wrongly to incite the masses, however in doing so, they water-down the term and make it worthless, and thus make it easier for real P2W situations to arise, because of so much "crying wolf" they are doing with everything else.

[Kalimah]

I got a plus 5 tome from a hard quest in Storm Horns this weekend :)

Put that in your P2W pipe and puff on it :D

[Chai]

No it's not. It is the keystone of the entire premise of what is P2W and what is not.

False. Its a mere technicality only brought up by those who have no refutation of actual stance on the real issue being discussed, in attempt to bog the discussion down with analysis paralysis.


Because there are a lot of people who are wrong and unwilling to admit that. The Widely and originally used definition of P2W came about in war games, hence the idea of Pay to Win, and was used in only 2 ways.

The first being: Where people could simply pay money and win any battle or fight.
.

Arguing its not pay to win using this literal justification is like saying we cant drive on the highway to New York, because theres no low-way, and New York is neither New or York, since York is in the United kingdom, which isn't even United on all issues, nor has it been a Kingdom for quite some time now.

The widely accepted definition encompasses alot more than the literal definition youre trying to (errantly) restrict it to. The only people trying to restrict the definition are those who have no refutation of actual stance made using said definition, so they attempt to lawyer the definition of the term itself, which is the only argument they have, but alas thsy lose that one too.

[Desdemonte]

False. Its a mere technicality only brought up by those who have no refutation of actual stance on the real issue being discussed, in attempt to bog the discussion down with analysis paralysis.



Arguing its not pay to win using this literal justification is like saying we cant drive on the highway to New York, because theres no low-way, and New York is neither New or York, since York is in the United kingdom, which isn't even United on all issues, nor has it been a Kingdom for quite some time now.

The widely accepted definition encompasses alot more than the literal definition youre trying to (errantly) restrict it to. The only people trying to restrict the definition are those who have no refutation of actual stance made using said definition, so they attempt to lawyer the definition of the term itself, which is the only argument they have, but alas thsy lose that one too.


OK then Chai- explain to us how any of this is p2w and will hurt the game.

[Ungood]

The widely accepted definition encompasses alot more than the literal definition youre trying to (errantly) restrict it to.

No it doesn't.

The definition is Listed should be the only term it applies to, otherwise you are using it wrongly. That is why we define what words mean to start with.

What you, and others are doing is the equivalent of eyeballing a centimeter and then when told you were incorrect you respond with "that is what I think an centimeter should be" and you expect to be taken seriously?

Look, thanks to nubs not being able to use P2W correctly this is what it has decayed to mean: "Waaaahhh Waaaahhh they are selling something I don't want them to sell! Waaaahh Waaahhh P2W!"

[Desdemonte]

No it's not. It is the keystone of the entire premise of what is P2W and what is not.



Because there are a lot of people who are wrong and unwilling to admit that. The Widely and originally used definition of P2W came about in war games, hence the idea of Pay to Win, and was used in only 2 ways.

The first being: Where people could simply pay money and win any battle or fight.

This is really where the idea of P2W came from. You could just "Buy a Win" and this term is pretty much still exclusive to war and PvP games and has zero place among any MMO I have played, unless there is a PvP MMO where I can use cash purchases to circumvent losing the fight.

Now, this does exist in DDO in the forum of: Raise Cakes, Healing Potions, Mana Pots, and the like being open in the store, because I can use money to not have to lose the quest. Notice that is not what this topic is taking about at all, on any level. I would like to add that even this type of P2W is somewhat limited in DDO because you can't use raise cakes in raid.

The second being: You needed to pay cash to get the best stuff:

Ok this seems to be the big one, and makes grown people cry the mantra that "I need to pay money for it so it's P2W". In fact, it seems that when people spout the P2W whines, it really boils down to the idea they they can buy something from the store.

Well the truth is, if you don't need to pay money for it, it's not P2W.

The reality behind this term and use is that as long as you can get in freely playing the game it's not P2W, it rise came about (again, in War Games and PvP games) which would require that you have specific cash purchased only items to allow you to make the best troops in the game, or had to pay money to get the best gear/items. This if you wanted any hope to win, you had to pay for it.

The closest this exists in DDO is adventure packs.

And yet you don't see people making a fuss that you had to buy Giant Hold to get Madstone boots.

As for Tomes, they don't even blip on the radar of what is P2W.


I don't even see mana pots as p2w because you can get them in game for plat. Also, they are only a temporary solution. They are a finite resource and I can't believe people will spend the kind of money required to beat a difficult quest over and over and over again. Sure, there may be the odd one, but I imagine its a rarity. They're no more than a temporary crutch. Nobody using them to "win" has any effect on me, other than to maybe give tactics on how I may beat that quest. I take server and game firsts with a grain of salt and say "meh". The goal of any caster is to complete without pots and they can't go very long chugging them before they run out of $.

[Chai]

I don't even see mana pots as p2w because you can get them in game for plat. Also, they are only a temporary solution. They are a finite resource and I can't believe people will spend the kind of money required to beat a difficult quest over and over and over again. Sure, there may be the odd one, but I imagine its a rarity. They're no more than a temporary crutch. Nobody using them to "win" has any effect on me, other than to maybe give tactics on how I may beat that quest. I take server and game firsts with a grain of salt and say "meh". The goal of any caster is to complete without pots and they can't go very long chugging them before they run out of $.

Those familiar with the way social game monetixzation works understand that most of the gimmicks are utilized heavily by 2-4% of the populace. Yes, there are people who pay alot of stacks of mana potions, raid timer bypass, and Xp stones. It doesnt have to be anywhere near the majority of the populace in order to succeed financially using this model, because that is what is expected using this model in the first place.

[eris2323]

And with this business model of 'allow the customer to purchase things with one-time payments and then never get another penny from them because we allow free play' - how, precisely, is Turbine supposed to make money, if they don't regularly SELL us stuff with one-time payments?

And in order to sell stuff, they must be stuffs that peoples wants.

IE; Ottos - EXP potions - +5 tomes... expansions.

I'm not begrudging them the ability to make money; if people want to buy their treasure, let them, as the money goes to improve the game we all play.

All of these pay-to-win threads are very silly, can I pay-to-remove-pay-to-win-threads mr quartermaster, yet, please?

[Desdemonte]

Those familiar with the way social game monetixzation works understand that most of the gimmicks are utilized heavily by 2-4% of the populace. Yes, there are people who pay alot of stacks of mana potions, raid timer bypass, and Xp stones. It doesnt have to be anywhere near the majority of the populace in order to succeed financially using this model, because that is what is expected using this model in the first place.

So how do those 2-4% impact the game you or I are playing other than to keep the doors open?

[Chai]

No it doesn't.

The definition is Listed should be the only term it applies to, otherwise you are using it wrongly. That is why we define what words mean to start with.

Not in the english language they dont. Slang is not relegated to mean the sum of all definitions of each word in the term.


What you, and others are doing is the equivalent of eyeballing a centimeter and then when told you were incorrect you respond with "that is what I think an centimeter should be" and you expect to be taken seriously?

What you are doing is bogging the discussion in analysis paralysis of the definition of a term, for 4 years straight, rather than actually discussing the topic at hand. Its a widely known method of disrupting discussions, used by those who have no refutation of the actual premise itself.


Look, thanks to nubs not being able to use P2W correctly this is what it has decayed to mean: "Waaaahhh Waaaahhh they are selling something I don't want them to sell! Waaaahh Waaahhh P2W!"


Another straw man argument, which has nothing to do with my stance. But of course if stance cant be refuted, drum up something far weaker, then attempt to demonize the strawman.

Rules lawyering that english slang must mean the sum of the definition of each word in the term is absurd. Theres hundreds of years of evolution of the language that supports this statement, with a myriad of examples.

[Chai]

So how do those 2-4% impact the game you or I are playing other than to keep the doors open?

2-4% are the big spenders. They arent the only ones impacted. THey are the ones trivializing the game with endless mana potions and stacks of raid timer bypass.

Youll see the impact in a few short months, when more threads are appearing about the lack of LFMs, no one to game with, log in counts and population spikes downward on other tracking sites. WHen this happens, note how quickly those who blindly defend paying to circumvent playing demand evidence, and then when its brought, demonize and casually dismiss all sources of information as inaccurate or misleading.

[Desdemonte]

Not in the english language they dont. Slang is not relegated to mean the sum of all definitions of each word in the term.



What you are doing is bogging the discussion in analysis paralysis of the definition of a term, for 4 years straight, rather than actually discussing the topic at hand. Its a widely known method of disrupting discussions, used by those who have no refutation of the actual premise itself.



Another straw man argument, which has nothing to do with my stance. But of course if stance cant be refuted, drum up something far weaker, then attempt to demonize the strawman.

Rules lawyering that english slang must mean the sum of the definition of each word in the term is absurd. Theres hundreds of years of evolution of the language that supports this statement, with a myriad of examples.

You realize you're just repeatedly responding with your own mantra of buzz words and gobbldygook, right?

[Chai]

And with this business model of 'allow the customer to purchase things with one-time payments and then never get another penny from them because we allow free play' - how, precisely, is Turbine supposed to make money, if they don't regularly SELL us stuff with one-time payments?

And in order to sell stuff, they must be stuffs that peoples wants.

IE; Ottos - EXP potions - +5 tomes... expansions.

I'm not begrudging them the ability to make money; if people want to buy their treasure, let them, as the money goes to improve the game we all play.

All of these pay-to-win threads are very silly, can I pay-to-remove-pay-to-win-threads mr quartermaster, yet, please?

Yeap, ironic however, that many of the same people who staunchly defended the f2p model as the savior of the game a few years ago are now the ones who are pointing out how poorly thought out it was for the long term financial success of the game. My post a few pages ago outlined this very concept. People are now beginning to complain that because they spent money to acquire raid loot far more quickly than anyone else could, that Turbine should not simpoly invalidate that loot with random generated loot that anyone can obtain.

Then the SAME PEOPLE post how it doesnt affect anyone negatively, when they themselves are posting that payment should equal entitlement. Once that loot was acquired did they think Turbine was just going to allow the marketing model to stagnate? The new incentive for payment is power creep. When the new raid comes out and invalidates all the previous raids weapons, coms, and upgrades, will those same folks continue to p2w to obtain the new loot like they did the oprevious batch of power creep?

[Chai]

You realize you're just repeatedly responding with your own mantra of buzz words and gobbldygook, right?

Please stop acting like this same level of repetition of stances on the issue doesnt exist on both sides. I note youre not quoting those who agree with you and calling them out for the same reason, even though they have been repeating themselves as long as I and those who gree with me have on this topic.

[eris2323]

Yeap, ironic however, that many of the same people who staunchly defended the f2p model as the savior of the game a few years ago are now the ones who are pointing out how poorly thought out it was for the long term financial success of the game. My post a few pages ago outlined this very concept. People are now beginning to complain that because they spent money to acquire raid loot far more quickly than anyone else could, that Turbine should not simpoly invalidate that loot with random generated loot that anyone can obtain.

Then the SAME PEOPLE post how it doesnt affect anyone negatively, when they themselves are posting that payment should equal entitlement. Once that loot was acquired did they think Turbine was just going to allow the marketing model to stagnate? The new incentive for payment is power creep. When the new raid comes out and invalidates all the previous raids weapons, coms, and upgrades, will those same folks continue to p2w to obtain the new loot like they did the oprevious batch of power creep?

Your choices are very simple.

Play - or not play.

You could take a break, if it bothers you that much, try a new game, see if you can avoid the same problems every MMO has...

PS: "Please turbine add new content but none of it can be better than old stuff i worked soooooo hard for okay thanks" = LOL (not saying you in particular, but you know, in general)

[Desdemonte]

2-4% are the big spenders. They arent the only ones impacted. THey are the ones trivializing the game with endless mana potions and stacks of raid timer bypass.

Youll see the impact in a few short months, when more threads are appearing about the lack of LFMs, no one to game with, log in counts and population spikes downward on other tracking sites. WHen this happens, note how quickly those who blindly defend paying to circumvent playing demand evidence, and then when its brought, demonize and casually dismiss all sources of information as inaccurate or misleading.

You are giving only vague allusions here, but I know what you are hinting at. Perhaps you are puting too much stock in the ability to purchase things with cash, rather than natural player attrition and the evolution of an MMO far past maturity? One that is in an extremely competitive market, not just for MMO dollars but gaming dollars in general?

This is not the game it was 3 years ago where it was all pretty straight forward. New people trying to break into the game are far more overwhelmed with its complexity and are therefore less likely to stick around. Measures need to be taken to retain them. Yes, I agree that the veteran population is an important resource and also needs to be retained. But the 2-4% "p2w-ers" are not really the vets we need to keep. If they cannot exhibit enough fiscal restraint to keep the game engaging for themselves, good riddance.

[Desdemonte]

Please stop acting like this same level of repetition of stances on the issue doesnt exist on both sides. I note youre not quoting those who agree with you and calling them out for the same reason, even though they have been repeating themselves as long as I and those who gree with me have on this topic.

Oh, I think both sides arguing the semantics of a definition is absurdity to the point of hilarity.

[Chai]

You are giving only vague allusions here, but I know what you are hinting at. Perhaps you are puting too much stock in the ability to purchase things with cash, rather than natural player attrition and the evolution of an MMO far past maturity? One that is in an extremely competitive market, not just for MMO dollars but gaming dollars in general?

This is not the game it was 3 years ago where it was all pretty straight forward. New people trying to break into the game are far more overwhelmed with its complexity and are therefore less likely to stick around. Measures need to be taken to retain them. Yes, I agree that the veteran population is an important resource and also needs to be retained. But the 2-4% "p2w-ers" are not really the vets we need to keep. If they cannot exhibit enough fiscal restraint to keep the game engaging for themselves, good riddance.

This is not how Turbine views it. The p2wers are exactly who they are trying to keep returning, and power creep is what keeps them coming back. They can complain all they want about how the previous loot they paid for is invalid, because now that the carrot is sweetened, they either need to pay or play to get the new loot. Since convenience is what is being justified here, they will continue to return and pay for more, and as long as that financial hamster wheel is still rolling, this is what will continue to be delivered and marketed as product.

And +5 tomes are going to retain new players? I dont think so.

Most of the "complexity" of the game has been removed. Your statement might have been true ~2008 but since then alot has been done to make this game new player friendly. This game is MORE straight forward than it was 3 years ago, by far.

[Desdemonte]

Yeap, ironic however, that many of the same people who staunchly defended the f2p model as the savior of the game a few years ago are now the ones who are pointing out how poorly thought out it was for the long term financial success of the game. My post a few pages ago outlined this very concept. People are now beginning to complain that because they spent money to acquire raid loot far more quickly than anyone else could, that Turbine should not simpoly invalidate that loot with random generated loot that anyone can obtain.

Then the SAME PEOPLE post how it doesnt affect anyone negatively, when they themselves are posting that payment should equal entitlement. Once that loot was acquired did they think Turbine was just going to allow the marketing model to stagnate? The new incentive for payment is power creep. When the new raid comes out and invalidates all the previous raids weapons, coms, and upgrades, will those same folks continue to p2w to obtain the new loot like they did the oprevious batch of power creep?

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure that is as much the heart of the problem as you imply. It has a lot to do with the game needing to give the "have everythings" something to do at level 20 in a mature MMO. Unfortunately they went overboard with easy to acquire OP items and EDs. Now they are stuck. The power creep has been accelerated and they're trying to cope with it.

Now it's either embrace it or go backwards so they need to choose the lesser of 2 evils. Hopefully they tone it down and don't listen to the people who circumvent the grind process too quickly for their own good. Really though, if you look at what is purchaseable in store, none of it is a very big deal.

[Chai]

Your choices are very simple.

Play - or not play.

You could take a break, if it bothers you that much, try a new game, see if you can avoid the same problems every MMO has...

PS: "Please turbine add new content but none of it can be better than old stuff i worked soooooo hard for okay thanks" = LOL (not saying you in particular, but you know, in general)

Right, which is what they did for a number of years actually. The eSOS was the best weapon in the game for 3 years. It still is in many circumstances, just not all.

Its more like: "Please turbine add new content but none of it can drop loot that invalidates old stuff i paid soooooo much for in the past, okay thanks".

[Chai]

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure that is as much the heart of the problem as you imply. It has a lot to do with the game needing to give the "have everythings" something to do at level 20 in a mature MMO. Unfortunately they went overboard with easy to acquire OP items and EDs. Now they are stuck. The power creep has been accelerated and they're trying to cope with it.

Now it's either embrace it or go backwards so they need to choose the lesser of 2 evils. Hopefully they tone it down and don't listen to the people who circumvent the grind process too quickly for their own good. Really though, if you look at what is purchaseable in store, none of it is a very big deal.

No one item in and of itself is a very big deal, but added up, it is a big deal, especially for those who get caught up in the pixelated arms race that is the new power creep.

[Qhualor]

And with this business model of 'allow the customer to purchase things with one-time payments and then never get another penny from them because we allow free play' - how, precisely, is Turbine supposed to make money, if they don't regularly SELL us stuff with one-time payments?

And in order to sell stuff, they must be stuffs that peoples wants.

IE; Ottos - EXP potions - +5 tomes... expansions.

I'm not begrudging them the ability to make money; if people want to buy their treasure, let them, as the money goes to improve the game we all play.

All of these pay-to-win threads are very silly, can I pay-to-remove-pay-to-win-threads mr quartermaster, yet, please?

Nobody asked for an Ottos. People asked for a better xp curve. Nobody asked to buy stat tomes. People just asked for a more fair drop rate. Nobody asked to bypass raid timers. People asked for it to be shortened. Nobody asked if they could pay to teleport to quests. People just asked simply for a teleporter to get to those far and away quests.

It hasn't been until the last couple years that people are actually suggesting to pay for certain ways to bypass parts of the game because they know Turbine will make something up and put it into the store as long as they feel its profitable. When people ask for a change in the game its no coincidence that people jokingly or sarcastically say "Now in the DDO store for a limited time! ...". We have come to expect P2W for every little thing now.

To think a game "needs" P2W to be successful, profitable or enough to keep the lights on is just silly thinking. There's been lots of ideas suggested by players from fluff to items to content to subs over the years that is not P2W and all they have to do is read through Suggestions and Ideas.

[Desdemonte]

This is not how Turbine views it. The p2wers are exactly who they are trying to keep returning, and power creep is what keeps them coming back. They can complain all they want about how the previous loot they paid for is invalid, because now that the carrot is sweetened, they either need to pay or play to get the new loot. Since convenience is what is being justified here, they will continue to return and pay for more, and as long as that financial hamster wheel is still rolling, this is what will continue to be delivered and marketed as product.

And +5 tomes are going to retain new players? I dont think so.

Most of the "complexity" of the game has been removed. Your statement might have been true ~2008 but since then alot has been done to make this game new player friendly. This game is MORE straight forward than it was 3 years ago, by far.

I think you need numbers that are impossible to get to say purchasing items is what keeps players or drives them away. There are many reasons for player attrition. Sure, this may be one of them but there are many more.

[eris2323]

Nobody asked for an Ottos. People asked for a better xp curve. Nobody asked to buy stat tomes. People just asked for a more fair drop rate. Nobody asked to bypass raid timers. People asked for it to be shortened. Nobody asked if they could pay to teleport to quests. People just asked simply for a teleporter to get to those far and away quests.

It hasn't been until the last couple years that people are actually suggesting to pay for certain ways to bypass parts of the game because they know Turbine will make something up and put it into the store as long as they feel its profitable. When people ask for a change in the game its no coincidence that people jokingly or sarcastically say "Now in the DDO store for a limited time! ...". We have come to expect P2W for every little thing now.

To think a game "needs" P2W to be successful, profitable or enough to keep the lights on is just silly thinking. There's been lots of ideas suggested by players from fluff to items to content to subs over the years that is not P2W and all they have to do is read through Suggestions and Ideas.

I bought an Otto's once - you see, I was working a few jobs, and I was really busy - too busy to grind out another life. I had money to burn - and I burned it here. DDO got alot of my extra money. Because they offered me time-saving things that I found valuable, and so I spent my money willingly on it.

Did I destroy your game by doing so?

The game needs a way to generate income.

It has to pay for servers to allow people to play for free, somehow.

I understand that.

I guess some people think this free game can somehow generate enough income to keep all the developers and artists paid... with... what, donations?

If you don't like the options to buy something... use your right as an intelligent human being to... not. buy. it.

Some people DO want the ability to buy it - keep your nose out of their business. And MY business; as you have no right to dictate how I ever choose to either play the game, or spend my money.

Until, that is - you produce a game that makes me want to SPEND my time or money on.

[Ungood]

Not in the english language they dont. Slang is not relegated to mean the sum of all definitions of each word in the term.

Sorry there man, but, it is.

Truth is, I should not need to explain this to an adult, and while I could fully understand needing to explain this to a young child that is still learning what language means and how words have definitions attached to them so that they learn they can't just insert any word they like for shock value (hence the dawn of things like the f-bomb, which is typically looked upon as used by the ignorant and the uneducated), but words are given meanings so we can actually communicate with each other effectively.

The reality is that Slang words have never been an exception to this fact, they come about because of a common meaning to them this being accepted and then embraced and thus using those words becomes more common place as people grow to not only accept but also understand what the word means, and thus can use it to convey ideas. Thus trying to pass off that simply because a word is a "slang term" means that it can be used to mean something other then what it was intended to mean is still using them incorrectly.

Now I explained what P2W means, and why it has the stigma it has, remove that meaning and you remove the stigma and thus eliminate the impact of the word, it's as simple as that.

IE: Its no longer a "bad thing" when it's just arbitrarily apply it to whatever with no thought or consideration on why this was a negative phrase to begin with, and thus, it becomes benign and ignored, and as I said. When people spout it, it's no longer "This wrong" but it becomes "What is this guy whining about now?"

In either case, I still come out ahead, in both the sense that this is not P2W, and in the sense I know what P2W really is.

[Hafeal]

Whether anyone believes it is p2w - whatever that means to each poster - to sell +anything tomes in the Store, is a red herring.

Call this D&D, or a hybrid, my old school self is that no decent DM ever had you buy loot. Ever. I have had the same objection to +anything gear and then later to elemental gear in the Store that I do to tomes. This is one reason why you play D&D -the excitement of possibly getting that amazing loot or seeing someone else get it. Roll those dice on the treasure table!

Dropping loot in the Store - any loot -to allow for 'convenience' of players is anti-D&D, to me. IMO, it also hurts DDO, it takes away part of the essence of the thrill of the hunt. Selling loot, tomes or anything else, is eliminating the mystery and fun. It also makes the game easier to play because it makes players more powerful, faster. This has made PUG grouping options, imo, much worse - constant over-powered zerg fests; often even when you advertise for new players or flower sniffers. It makes "team" play rare. And no, I don't want to just solo or run with my guild - part of playing an MMO is to interact outside of a select group or sit by myself.

DDO had other options to market the Store and do different revenue pathings. They chose an easy route. Say what you will - as we don't have the numbers - but I think it is safe to say DDO is not a Top 10 MMO in terms of active player accounts. As we approach the 3rd anniversary since f2p, DDO can make some choices on how to grow the game or squeeze its player base more. I think DDO can grow the game and can make better choices. It's not too late.

[Forzah]

You realize you're just repeatedly responding with your own mantra of buzz words and gobbldygook, right?

Truer words have not been spoken in this thread.

Furthermore, I would like to rename "pay to win" to "pay for tolerated cheating", which is a bit more accurate.

[Qhualor]

I bought an Otto's once - you see, I was working a few jobs, and I was really busy - too busy to grind out another life. I had money to burn - and I burned it here. DDO got alot of my extra money. Because they offered me time-saving things that I found valuable, and so I spent my money willingly on it.

Did I destroy your game by doing so?

The game needs a way to generate income.

It has to pay for servers to allow people to play for free, somehow.

I understand that.

I guess some people think this free game can somehow generate enough income to keep all the developers and artists paid... with... what, donations?

If you don't like the options to buy something... use your right as an intelligent human being to... not. buy. it.

Some people DO want the ability to buy it - keep your nose out of their business. And MY business; as you have no right to dictate how I ever choose to either play the game, or spend my money.

Until, that is - you produce a game that makes me want to SPEND my time or money on.


It makes no sense to comment on this other than what I am doing now. Go back and read some of my posts and maybe you will understand what the whole P2W discussion is really about. Its just tiring to repeat the same thing to people and easier to read what's already been posted.

[katz]

http://www.gamergeoff.com/sometimes/



PS @ Chai: just cuz a term is slang doesn't mean it doesn't have a solid and concrete definition.


meh. i'ma go back to having fun in game and not giving a flip if someone else has +1 more stat point than i do.

[eris2323]

It makes no sense to comment on this other than what I am doing now. Go back and read some of my posts and maybe you will understand what the whole P2W discussion is really about. Its just tiring to repeat the same thing to people and easier to read what's already been posted.
No thanks, it's just as tiring seeing the same old 'pay-to-win' arguments repeated day after day on the forums ;)

[Qhualor]

Sorry there man, but, it is.

Truth is, I should not need to explain this to an adult, and while I could fully understand needing to explain this to a young child that is still learning what language means and how words have definitions attached to them so that they learn they can't just insert any word they like for shock value (hence the dawn of things like the f-bomb, which is typically looked upon as used by the ignorant and the uneducated), but words are given meanings so we can actually communicate with each other effectively.

The reality is that Slang words have never been an exception to this fact, they come about because of a common meaning to them this being accepted and then embraced and thus using those words becomes more common place as people grow to not only accept but also understand what the word means, and thus can use it to convey ideas. Thus trying to pass off that simply because a word is a "slang term" means that it can be used to mean something other then what it was intended to mean is still using them incorrectly.

Now I explained what P2W means, and why it has the stigma it has, remove that meaning and you remove the stigma and thus eliminate the impact of the word, it's as simple as that.

IE: Its no longer a "bad thing" when it's just arbitrarily apply it to whatever with no thought or consideration on why this was a negative phrase to begin with, and thus, it becomes benign and ignored, and as I said. When people spout it, it's no longer "This wrong" but it becomes "What is this guy whining about now?"

In either case, I still come out ahead, in both the sense that this is not P2W, and in the sense I know what P2W really is.


So tell me than. Has P2W always meant exactly what it means. I mean, is there and has there been MMOs that actually allow you to pay and win?

[Karavek]

So tell me than. Has P2W always meant exactly what it means. I mean, is there and has there been MMOs that actually allow you to pay and win?

actually yes. At least by the old real def I am familiar with.

Once upon a time I played an old online shooter that was a hybrid RPG/thrd person shooter. It was purely PVP as well, yes you wandered around a post apocalyptic city, and a small handful of missions would be filled with NPC mobs, but they where very much meant for newbs to get the basics learned on. The real game was competetive PvP.

As you played you earned XP win or lose, winning ofcourse meant more and faster power gain. Each lvl came with a point to be spent unlocking various weapons training to use bigger scarier weapons, or upgrade an effect of a weapon etc.

The thing is these points could also be directly purchased from the games cash shop, as could the biggest and best weapons that only existed in game otherwise in the hands of max lvl crafters who due to the highly competitive nature of the game did not sell their goods on the games AH at all. To much risk of it ending up being used on you or a clan member.

So those who where known as K/D *****s would once they learned the game basically well enough, then would start fresh accounts dump tons of cash in to make this new lvl 1 character the equal in gear and ability to a capped toon, and have zero challenge in any match unless another equally payed out character was on the other side fighting the good fight to win rather then just worried about sniping easy kills while avoiding deaths at all costs which usually mean the match would be lost as most matches where not won by Kill counts.

That is what I and alot of people think of in my experience when we talk about pay to win, not the ability to pwn end game so much as to pay to abuse and dominate the game on the way to cap. DDO already did that without P2W a long time ago with way to much power to be had in TRing and having things like GS gear to outright abuse most content well into the epic lvl range.

[Chai]

Sorry there man, but, it is.

Truth is, I should not need to explain this to an adult, and while I could fully understand needing to explain this to a young child that is still learning what language means and how words have definitions attached to them so that they learn they can't just insert any word they like for shock value (hence the dawn of things like the f-bomb, which is typically looked upon as used by the ignorant and the uneducated), but words are given meanings so we can actually communicate with each other effectively.

The reality is that Slang words have never been an exception to this fact, they come about because of a common meaning to them this being accepted and then embraced and thus using those words becomes more common place as people grow to not only accept but also understand what the word means, and thus can use it to convey ideas. Thus trying to pass off that simply because a word is a "slang term" means that it can be used to mean something other then what it was intended to mean is still using them incorrectly.

Now I explained what P2W means, and why it has the stigma it has, remove that meaning and you remove the stigma and thus eliminate the impact of the word, it's as simple as that.

IE: Its no longer a "bad thing" when it's just arbitrarily apply it to whatever with no thought or consideration on why this was a negative phrase to begin with, and thus, it becomes benign and ignored, and as I said. When people spout it, it's no longer "This wrong" but it becomes "What is this guy whining about now?"

In either case, I still come out ahead, in both the sense that this is not P2W, and in the sense I know what P2W really is.


Youre completely wrong in this definition rules lawyering where you are arguing that a slang term is restricted to mean the sum of the definitions of each word in the term. This has NEVER been the way the English language works.. Ive already given you a pretty good example and you continue to gloss over it.

Arguing its not pay to win using this literal definition justification is like saying we cant drive on the highway to New York, because theres no low-way, and New York is neither New or York, since York is in the United kingdom, which isn't even United on all issues, nor has it been a Kingdom for quite some time now.

Hundreds of years of English slang refutes your rigid lawyering of definitions.

[Archangel_666]

Arguing its not pay to win using this literal definition justification is like saying we cant drive on the highway to New York, because theres no low-way, and New York is neither New or York, since York is in the United kingdom, which isn't even United on all issues, nor has it been a Kingdom for quite some time now.

Hundreds of years of English slang refutes your rigid lawyering of definitions.

I can't believe I'm actually going to agree with Chai but I kinda have to on this one (Not so much on the subject of the Tomes, I'm too apathetic to care anymore by this point, but about how Slang Terms are more than merely a literal definition of the sum of the words used in the term).

Better example for you Chai. New York is commonly referred to as "The Big Apple".

Using Ungood's literal word for word definition that must mean that New York is an actual giant Apple...

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

It's like watching C-Span on a slow day or taking a freshman philosophy class. Right now I'd rather see +8 tomes in the store than read another page of three people arguing about arguing; at least someone would be winning then.

[Chai]

I can't believe I'm actually going to agree with Chai but I kinda have to on this one (Not so much on the subject of the Tomes, I'm too apathetic to care anymore by this point, but about how Slang Terms are more than merely a literal definition of the sum of the words used in the term).

Better example for you Chai. New York is commonly referred to as "The Big Apple".

Using Ungood's literal word for word definition that must mean that New York is an actual giant Apple...

Yeap, the melting pot of cultures. Somehow this big apple everyone lives in melts down cultures, in a pot designed to do so. Cant explain that. /random pic of Bill O'Riley. :p

[Kalimah]

Whether anyone believes it is p2w - whatever that means to each poster - to sell +anything tomes in the Store, is a red herring.

Call this D&D, or a hybrid, my old school self is that no decent DM ever had you buy loot. Ever. I have had the same objection to +anything gear and then later to elemental gear in the Store that I do to tomes. This is one reason why you play D&D -the excitement of possibly getting that amazing loot or seeing someone else get it. Roll those dice on the treasure table!

Dropping loot in the Store - any loot -to allow for 'convenience' of players is anti-D&D, to me. IMO, it also hurts DDO, it takes away part of the essence of the thrill of the hunt. Selling loot, tomes or anything else, is eliminating the mystery and fun. It also makes the game easier to play because it makes players more powerful, faster. This has made PUG grouping options, imo, much worse - constant over-powered zerg fests; often even when you advertise for new players or flower sniffers. It makes "team" play rare. And no, I don't want to just solo or run with my guild - part of playing an MMO is to interact outside of a select group or sit by myself.

DDO had other options to market the Store and do different revenue pathings. They chose an easy route. Say what you will - as we don't have the numbers - but I think it is safe to say DDO is not a Top 10 MMO in terms of active player accounts. As we approach the 3rd anniversary since f2p, DDO can make some choices on how to grow the game or squeeze its player base more. I think DDO can grow the game and can make better choices. It's not too late.

The thing is though..this is Dungeon and Dragons Online. It is not D&D. I think that is the big problem a lof of the older cats (myself included in the old dudes) have a problem pounding through our thick skulls. Not saying you ARE and oldster...just a though here brought on your ideas of what is and isnt D&D.

If this were a gamer group where we all get together a few times a week and bust out our 20, 12, 10, 8, 6 and 4 sided then the argument about it does or does not feel like D&D would apply.

This is not D&D. It uses some similarities and some basic ideas of the general mechanics. But it is not D&D. It is a game software company with all the relevant services. One that has to turn a dime to remain in business. As long as they do not offer things in the DDO store that are required to play the game and cannot be bought elsewhere then all the P2W arguments are void. If you have ever REALLY been a part of a P2W system you would know the glaring differences we see in DDO today.

Maybe in the future that could change, but to state that offering services in the store is a red herring for P2W or even P2W is just not an accurate statement. It is a leap of logic that is not supported by relevant facts and is ONLY the posters opinion (whichever...not picking on Chai cause I love his posts either way hehe).

[hp1055cm]

I have +3 tomes on my two primary toons and +2 tomes on a third; most of them purchased at the auction house. I think I earned a couple of +3 tomes in loot; one of which I gave away at the chest since I already had it and it was btc.
Anyway, I play mostly heroic with a couple of runs to level 25 and I haven't had any problems with my stats. I would take any +4 tomes and +5 tomes I found but see little reason to spend TP on them.


There is something to be said for the hunt for rare or hard to obtain items. I do appreciate something more when it is very difficult to acquire. The auction house already kills some of that satisfaction.

I think its fine to have an opinion about a better way to run the game, but I can't see how this change is really going to have any major impact on it for me. If Turbine makes some coin off selling tomes then hopefully they will invest some of it back into the game.

[jalont]

To think a game "needs" P2W to be successful, profitable or enough to keep the lights on is just silly thinking. There's been lots of ideas suggested by players from fluff to items to content to subs over the years that is not P2W and all they have to do is read through Suggestions and Ideas.

This is truly wrong and honestly, DDO has less "p2w" than any other free game on the market. How do we know that DDO needs what you consider "p2w"? Because it's coming at the end of a very very long developmental cycle that has already tried all of the "suggestions and ideas". A company doesn't move from a more profitable mechanic to a less profitable mechanic. That's just silly.

The truth of the matter is the generation currently coming up, the one that likely makes up the largest playerbase for DDO, has entitlement issues. They fully believe that they are entitled to whatever they want without paying for it. They will freely break the law and stream/pirate songs, books, television shows and movies without a single thought. You think people like this will freely give money to a game to support? That's just delusional. Money has to be pried from their wallets. Period.

[Ungood]

Youre completely wrong in this definition rules lawyering where you are arguing that a slang term is restricted to mean the sum of the definitions of each word in the term. This has NEVER been the way the English language works.

Sorry man, but at this point you are just dead wrong. It has always been the way of words to have established meanings, that is the backbone of our ability to communicate.

Slang words were never the exception of this, and fact they were the rule to this ideal, as that is how they were able to become commonly used words, because it was commonly known what they mean. Otherwise, using words with no fixed meaning destroys the ability to have a discussion using those words. Really, this is like basic kindergarten understanding of language.

Seriously, when you use a new word on someone their first question is "what does that mean" and the wrong answer is "Oh it's slang it means wherever the I feel like it meaning"

So No, the only person dead wrong about this is you Chai, our culture, our language, and our very means to communicate do not work that way, and they never will, even if you wish they really world to support your ability to abuse words to your liking.

[Chai]

Sorry man, but at this point you are just dead wrong.

Im actually quite alive, and quite correct, thank you very much.


It has always been the way of words to have established meanings, that is the backbone of our ability to communicate.

Abilities to communicate have skelital backbones? That means it has to have a back, which also means it has to have a front.


Slang words were never the exception of this, and fact they were the rule to this ideal, as that is how they were able to become commonly used words, because it was commonly known what they mean. Otherwise, using words with no fixed meaning destroys the ability to have a discussion using those words. Really, this is like basic kindergarten understanding of language.

No fixed meaning? Why does it need to be fixed, is it broken?


Seriously, when you use a new word on someone their first question is "what does that mean" and the wrong answer is "Oh it's slang it means wherever the I feel like it meaning"

It means far more than the sum of literal definition of each word in the term added up, as Ive clearly demonstrated by picking apart your own post and using the literal meanings of words to demonstrate how absurd your argument about how English slang definitions always equal the sum of the definitions of each individual word in the term.


So No, the only person dead wrong about this is you Chai, our culture, our language, and our very means to communicate do not work that way, and they never will, even if you wish they really world to support your ability to abuse words to your liking.

If what you are saying is true, telling me Im "dead wrong" would include not being alive as part of the definition of the term "dead wrong". You see, your own speech and posting habits are rife with the same english slang, which does not mean the sum of the literal definitions of each word in the term. While you attempt to disagree with me here in words, its those very words you are using which crush your very stance on the issue, and show me to be absolutely correct about how English slang works.

[Qhualor]

This is truly wrong and honestly, DDO has less "p2w" than any other free game on the market. How do we know that DDO needs what you consider "p2w"? Because it's coming at the end of a very very long developmental cycle that has already tried all of the "suggestions and ideas". A company doesn't move from a more profitable mechanic to a less profitable mechanic. That's just silly.

The truth of the matter is the generation currently coming up, the one that likely makes up the largest playerbase for DDO, has entitlement issues. They fully believe that they are entitled to whatever they want without paying for it. They will freely break the law and stream/pirate songs, books, television shows and movies without a single thought. You think people like this will freely give money to a game to support? That's just delusional. Money has to be pried from their wallets. Period.

We have bags that can be named? Scroll bags? Potion bags?

We have a bank that is organized?

We have subs that are worth paying for with really nice perks?

These are just a few suggestions that people have asked for and have offered to pay extra for. We don't have them. When a company resorts to P2W to trivialize their own game, it means they want to make a bigger profit or its a last resort to keep player interest. There's enough of an attraction that Turbine could keep the interest of players, but any changes they make has been too little too late as people get fed up and leave or Turbine just won't listen.

[katz]

per Urban Dictionary, the #1 definition of "Pay-to-win":



Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!




and i know you will immediately jump on the one little bit that says "at a faster rate". i challenge you and say this: all the money in the world doesn't buy skill. the day that a brand new fresh noob can open the DDO store and outfit themselves head to toe in raid gear and tomes and everything, if i can't play circles around them buck nakked because of my skill and my meta-knowledge of the game... THAT is when DDO is "pay to win".

DDO offers CONVENIENCE ITEMS. you don't have to buy them to "win" ("winning" an open-ended MMO is yet another argument entirely that i don't want to re-hash right now either). i give ya an example. they put +4 tomes in the store for a limited time. i snapped up one of the "supreme" tomes, which was actually 6 individual tomes, and distributed them across a few of my characters. my friend, on the other hand, farmed +4 tomes in game, and got all the stats but one (one he didn't need) all on his one main character. i consider him to be a better player than i am (he has, afterall, solo-ed FoT, and i haven't) and yet i'm the one who "payed to "win"". i didn't pay to win, i paid for the convenience to even my stats and not spend endless hours after i'm already exhausted from work to do it. i play to have fun, not mindlessly grind the same few perfect loot or xp quests



but really.. it's simple. don't like it, don't buy it.

[Ungood]

So tell me than. Has P2W always meant exactly what it means. I mean, is there and has there been MMOs that actually allow you to pay and win?

In simple terms: Yes,

From it's inception and the games that triggered the phrase to be used, to today, it means what it has always meant.

As others have said, there are MMO's MOBA's and many PvP games that have had this "feature" designed into them where players could and would literally spend real cash to buy power-ups of one form or another, to make it so they could not lose. This meant that for a few bucks your opponent could literally invalidate all your skill, ability, time you put into the game, and the only way you would have a chance to beat them is if you spent real money as well.

That is why this term is hated and has such stigma attached to it. take that away, and the phrase is a benign joke. and quite literally, P2W has no real place in an PvE exclusive game like DDO.

To simply have it mean to be able to buy with cash some auxiliary items you can earn in game makes the phrase totally worthless.

So don't be fooled by a few people who like to try and toss it out for shock value, with no real understanding of the phrase, why it has the stigma it has, or what it means, using the term P2W, is like any other phrase, if you toss it out without fully grasping what you are talking about, then you you're the one that looks bad.

[jalont]

We have bags that can be named? Scroll bags? Potion bags?

We have a bank that is organized?

We have subs that are worth paying for with really nice perks?

Which is more likely? A company that has built one of the longest running MMOs on the market just doesn't understand its own business model, or that the player base doesn't understand what is profitable?



These are just a few suggestions that people have asked for and have offered to pay extra for. We don't have them. When a company resorts to P2W to trivialize their own game, it means they want to make a bigger profit or its a last resort to keep player interest. There's enough of an attraction that Turbine could keep the interest of players, but any changes they make has been too little too late as people get fed up and leave or Turbine just won't listen.

Except there's a fine line. The only thing mentioned in these threads that are actually p2w are xp stone and raid bypass timers. These are also the things least complained about because people actually like them and buy them in droves. Things like tomes in the store and other nonsense that can be easily found in game won't drive people away, because they have no where to go that doesn't offer these things.

[Ungood]

Better example for you Chai. New York is commonly referred to as "The Big Apple".

Using Ungood's literal word for word definition that must mean that New York is an actual giant Apple...

Actually dispiote Chai's ignorance, and outright foolishness, I am not using the Literal definition of each of the words, I am using the established meaning of the phase.

What's the difference you ask?

Well, look at the Phrase "The Big Apple" , if we were to go by Chai, that could mean whatever he thinks it should mean, Which would be just silly, if not outright moronic.

The Phrase "The Big Apple" has it history linked into the jazz scene of New York, but when you have people like Chai running around saying "it's slang it can mean whatever I want" who knows, he might start to talk about literal apples.

The truth is, P2W, came about because it described exactly what was going on. game companies would put Power-Ups in the store for real cash, that could make a player unbeatable unless their opponent bought MORE power then they had. Thus the term was used to describe the practice of Players paying game companies for the ability to win PvP fights.. Literally.

So, it's not about the "Literal" definition of the words: pay two win, it is about the real definition and origin of the term itself, what brought it about, and what it was in Reference to.

Now Chai is well known for going to any lengths and making himself look like a buffoon to cling to his point, I encourage you not to join him.

[Forzah]

So tell me than. Has P2W always meant exactly what it means. I mean, is there and has there been MMOs that actually allow you to pay and win?

People take 'winning' a bit literally. I see it more in terms of a goal you would like to reach. For instance, gathering all your favourite gear or becoming a completionist. Any artificial means that speeds up the natural process of reaching your goal can be regarded as 'winning' with respect to your goal. If you pay for the item or feature that achieves this speed-up, you are basically paying to win. Such items include bypass timers, xp potions, astral shards, and otto's boxes, among others. Quest packs, classes, and the epic destiny system are natural to the design of the game and are hence not P2W.

[Hafeal]

This is not D&D. It uses some similarities and some basic ideas of the general mechanics. But it is not D&D.

It is D&D, affirm that it is gone through an evolution if you like (pnp has, so has DDO). It is branded D8D still. DDO also continues to use most of the concepts, if not many of the same rules. It also attempts to capture the same spirit of gaming - the lure of adventure, the spirit of the fight, and the thrill of reward.

My point being, D&D was never about 'buying' the loot. The - what I call - "excuse" that because DDO is run with software, on servers, as an MMO, and therefore it's "ok" for them to make money doing things like selling "loot" doesn't fly with me. I understand other people don't care and will attempt to justify it as "their money" or "it doesn't bother me." Hey, cool, I respect that perspective. I think those views fail to recognize that the sale of "loot" (I consider pots, tomes, weapons, and armor among other items sold in the Store to fall into this category) diminishes the game experience and has an overall negative affect on the player base.

I think DDO had other, better options to use the Store to make their fortune rather than resorting to the sale of treasure items. They have started to use some, left them behind and come to them (e.g., cosmetics), others they have failed to utilize (e.g., true player housing and potential related sundries).

[Ungood]

People take 'winning' a bit literally.

That has to with he fact that P2W originated from PvP games, and really has no place in the PvE environment at all. The reason why P2W was so bad ws because players could and would literally spend real cash to buy power-ups of one form or another, to make it so they could not lose. This meant that for a few bucks your opponent could literally invalidate all your skill, ability, time you put into the game, and the only way you would have a chance to beat them is if you spent money as well.

That is why this term is hated and has such stigma attached to it. take that away, and the phrase is a benign joke. Much like this outrage over +5 tomes.

[Hafeal]

Much like this outrage over +5 tomes.

Ah well, each to their own, right? We all have different things which disappoint or break us, no?

I believe my Op said I was sad. Not upset, not outraged. I was sad on 2 levels - one that the tomes are for sale and two, that the powers that be swept into the pack under cover of night - although, please - don't take the slang literally. :p I didn't ask for anyone to agree.

Part of the issue on these forums is a failure of posters to respect that others have differing views. I respect that this is not an issue to which you feel there is much meat to it. I, on the other hand, see this as yet one more step down the slope of DDO completely selling out to corporate greed v. making a game I love better than it is now.

Many posters here "trust" Turbine. I don't. I think that although there have been plenty of times when the powers that be have paid some heed to the player base, I think there have been a few too many times when they have slapped the player base upside the head. Some players just haven't been here long enough to have been slapped enough or some players have a higher tolerance for being slapped without losing their trust. Not me.

[Ungood]

It means far more than the sum of literal definition of each word in the term added up,

OMG! LOL.. I just figured this out.

You thought I was talking about the Literal Definition of each world alone?

Not to be too melodramatic.. but BUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You seriously did not know the origin of the Phrase P2W and what it applied to? You really had no idea that it was literally describing the practice of players spending money to be able to beat other players in PvP games?

[Qhualor]

That has to with he fact that P2W originated from PvP games, and really has no place in the PvE environment at all. The reason why P2W was so bad ws because players could and would literally spend real cash to buy power-ups of one form or another, to make it so they could not lose. This meant that for a few bucks your opponent could literally invalidate all your skill, ability, time you put into the game, and the only way you would have a chance to beat them is if you spent money as well.

That is why this term is hated and has such stigma attached to it. take that away, and the phrase is a benign joke. Much like this outrage over +5 tomes.

P2W has evolved. it is more common in games today much like we see in DDO. there are free options and there are pay options. irritations are purposely implemented into the game and the allure of the "carrot" entices people to spend instead of doing things the "hard" way to get where they want and what they want. there has been no formal agreement on a new acronym that defines what Turbine and other companies do. some people prefer PFC (pay for convenience). I can almost go along with that, but the problem is that its player convenience and when hundreds of people pay for the same thing, it still affects the game as a whole and its a temporary happiness for the paying player. P2W is more universally known and I get that its not used correctly in DDO as long as there are other options without having to pay for it, but even after many discussions of how people like me and Chai are actually trying to get across to people they still come back and say its jealousy or its only +1 more stat or this isn't PVP. ive read through online gaming sites and even they don't have a word or words for what games like Turbine do. as a matter of fact, most articles I have read on the subject have said that its a red flag for companies to suddenly put P2W into their game and they do this usually after the player base has been built up but have to be careful of how much they do so not to scare off their F2P players. its one thing if a game starts out P2W or PFC, which DDO did not, because than people already know ahead of time and know if they are willing to invest in a game like that. Turbine is smart in first building up the player base to get people hooked and asking them to continuously draw a new line in the sand as they have slowly added more and more pay options into the game.

oh and also, the rage wasn't about +5 tomes at first. its was pretty mellow but than the subject of P2W came up and that's when the rage began.

[Ungood]

Ah well, each to their own, right? We all have different things which disappoint or break us, no?

I totally agree.

I believe that everyone is entailed to their own feelings, what they like, don't like, what annoys them and what makes them happy or sad or whatever. I fully support anyone's right to feel as they please about this, and I am not trying to discredits anyone's feelings about this.

My only point is that this is not P2W.

[Ungood]

P2W has evolved. it is more common in games today much like we see in DDO. there are free options and there are pay options. irritations are purposely implemented into the game and the allure of the "carrot" entices people to spend instead of doing things the "hard" way to get where they want and what they want. there has been no formal agreement on a new acronym that defines what Turbine and other companies do. some people prefer PFC (pay for convenience). I can almost go along with that, but the problem is that its player convenience and when hundreds of people pay for the same thing, it still affects the game as a whole and its a temporary happiness for the paying player. P2W is more universally known and I get that its not used correctly in DDO as long as there are other options without having to pay for it, but even after many discussions of how people like me and Chai are actually trying to get across to people they still come back and say its jealousy or its only +1 more stat or this isn't PVP. ive read through online gaming sites and even they don't have a word or words for what games like Turbine do. as a matter of fact, most articles I have read on the subject have said that its a red flag for companies to suddenly put P2W into their game and they do this usually after the player base has been built up but have to be careful of how much they do so not to scare off their F2P players. its one thing if a game starts out P2W or PFC, which DDO did not, because than people already know ahead of time and know if they are willing to invest in a game like that. Turbine is smart in first building up the player base to get people hooked and asking them to continuously draw a new line in the sand as they have slowly added more and more pay options into the game.

I would like to take a moment to make it very clear that the Term P2W has not Evolved, People are simply using it incorrectly for shock value.

The truth is, what Turbine is doing is not P2W at all, what they are doing would typically be called "fleecing (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fleecing)",perhaps, even "Hustling (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hustling)", while others might call it "giving the players what they want" after all, not everyone wants to farm tomes in this game.

But, "Fleecing" or "Hustling" does not have the shock value of P2W among the gamer community, so now all that happened was someone used the term P2W for propaganda purposes and started a several page dispute on what is P2W, and at the end of the day, this is not it.

[Hoglum]

My point being, D&D was never about 'buying' the loot.


Haha, I beg to differ. Heck, back in the day getting me a beer from the fridge could change your destiny.

So if buying a thing of leveling up is pay to win, then is buying a true heart of heart and getting set back to level 1 considered pay to lose?

[Qhualor]

I would like to take a moment to make it very clear that the Term P2W has not Evolved, People are simply using it incorrectly for shock value.

The truth is, what Turbine is doing is not P2W at all, what they are doing would typically be called "fleecing (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fleecing)",perhaps, even "Hustling (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hustling)", while others might call it "giving the players what they want" after all, not everyone wants to farm tomes in this game.

But, "Fleecing" or "Hustling" does not have the shock value of P2W among the gamer community, so now all that happened was someone used the term P2W for propaganda purposes and started a several page dispute on what is P2W, and at the end of the day, this is not it.

by all means, start up a new acronym that people can associate this "fleecing" and "hustling". I personally take more offense to those words than I do with P2W. therefore, a business strategy that Turbine uses by offering multiple options, one of which is payment, I don't call it this "hustling" or "fleecing". they are not pulling wool over peoples eyes because they are aware of multiple options and they are not trying to hustle people out of their money. I would rather stick with pay for convenience because that is closer to what Turbine is doing than anything else.

there is no shock value in talking P2W. the old meaning of it is almost dead as other games are doing the same kind of things like Turbine. even the old meaning of it didn't mean literally what it means and it actually meant you were paying to advance your character because it was the only option, weather it was by gear or content.

[Kalimah]

People take 'winning' a bit literally. I see it more in terms of a goal you would like to reach. For instance, gathering all your favourite gear or becoming a completionist. Any artificial means that speeds up the natural process of reaching your goal can be regarded as 'winning' with respect to your goal. If you pay for the item or feature that achieves this speed-up, you are basically paying to win. Such items include bypass timers, xp potions, astral shards, and otto's boxes, among others. Quest packs, classes, and the epic destiny system are natural to the design of the game and are hence not P2W.

By this definition, VIP subscribers are = P2W.

Yes?

[Hafeal]

irritations are purposely implemented into the game and the allure of the "carrot" entices people to spend instead of doing things the "hard" way to get where they want and what they want.

I will take it a step further. Just like we do not know the sub numbers or other data about who is playing, and who isn't, we don't see Turbine's game code. This is the ultimate trust we have to take with them - that the coding and 'numbers" are "fair." So, when Turbine introduces a new repair elixir to the DDO Store, do you trust that they didn't monkey around with the the damage rates and break rates for equipment? Do you trust the roll numbers on loot tables when you can get a re-roll chance? I mean, wouln't they want to show better rolls the 2nd time to entice AS purchases?

Sure, there will be those who dismiss the idea that a corporation, run under Fortune 500 umbrella would do such a thing. I say, you don't understand human nature. I want transparency and while Turbine can't show its code, I can be smart and think crticially about their products, and making Store items that circumvent bad results in game, certainly has my eyebrows raised. The smart players, and the vets deftly avoid these pit traps as they were not designed for them. In a society where you see individuals and companies attempt to steal money in creative and wild ways get convicted on a daily basis for crimes ranging from tens of thousands of dollars to millions - you will not convince me that under corporate pressure, DDO execs wouldn't milk the player base at every turn.



Haha, I beg to differ. Heck, back in the day getting me a beer from the fridge could change your destiny.

So if buying a thing of leveling up is pay to win, then is buying a true heart of heart and getting set back to level 1 considered pay to lose?

LOL. I guess it depends on the beer you brought back? Not as many IPAs in those days I suspect.

[Ungood]

by all means, start up a new acronym that people can associate this "fleecing" and "hustling". I personally take more offense to those words than I do with P2W. therefore, a business strategy that Turbine uses by offering multiple options, one of which is payment, I don't call it this "hustling" or "fleecing". they are not pulling wool over peoples eyes because they are aware of multiple options and they are not trying to hustle people out of their money. I would rather stick with pay for convenience because that is closer to what Turbine is doing than anything else.

there is no shock value in talking P2W. the old meaning of it is almost dead as other games are doing the same kind of things like Turbine. even the old meaning of it didn't mean literally what it means and it actually meant you were paying to advance your character because it was the only option, weather it was by gear or content.

Well, I only mentioned fleecing and hustling, because you said:


ive read through online gaming sites and even they don't have a word or words for what games like Turbine do.

However, how about you all start using P4C (Pay for Convenience) as opposed to continuing to wrongly use P2W.

[Archangel_666]

However, how about you all start using P4C (Pay for Convenience) as opposed to continuing to wrongly use P2W.

I'll get to your other reply later, it's late here and I'm going to bed soon and it'll take a while to type it out.

For now though I'll just state my objection to the term "Pay for Convenience".

In simple terms I object to it because "convenience" can be used to justify almost anything.

Take Raid Loot for example.

It would seem silly to suggest that Raid Loot be sold on the DDO Store, surely?

Well let's look at this "Pay for Convenience" with regards to Raid Loot shall we?


If you run Caught in the Web every three days without fail for the next ten years, I can guarantee that you will eventually leave with say a Pinion.

Either you'll pull one yourself, or someone will take pity on the poor bugger who's been trying to get one for the last eight and a half years and pass it.


So essentially all we're talking about is time, how long it takes you to pull a Pinion in this example.


Wouldn't it be "convenient" to save ten years of grinding and just pay for it?

After all if you have the money but don't have the time, what's the difference between Raid Loot and say an XP Stone?

[erethizon]

What youre going to see posted is more hilarity where people are trying to convince you that slang in the English language is defined by the sum of the definition of each word in the term. Then they will say because you cant "win" its not 'pay to win". I grin each time I see this, because every single native English speaker uses a plethora of slang terms on a daily basis which does not even remotely come close to meaning the sum of each definition of each word in the term. Arguing its not pay to win using this justification is like saying we cant drive on the highway to New York, because theres no low-way, and New York is neither New or York, since York is in the United kingdom, which isn't even United on all issues, nor has it been a Kingdom for quite some time now. :p

Im also convinced that each and every person who has been trying to rules lawyer the definition this way for the past 4 years completely understands what the term means when someone uses it, and is only trying to bog the discussion down in a disruptive form of analysis paralysis where every single slang term and use of grammar will be cited as being incorrect. Some would rather see the discussion caught up in this type of disruption for multiple pages, due to the fact that they have no real refutation of the actual stance you are taking on the subject.

If refutation existed, you would see it and hear it, but since it doesn't, the two most common things you will see is "if you cant win you cant pay to win" and "how does it affect you if someone else buys tomes" - in attempt to try to turn it into some personal discussion, using the straw man argument that you must be jealous of those who buy tomes.

The rebuttals lack merit because the argument lacks it as well. If you want me to avoid rules lawyering the definition and stick with the slang term then anyone that spends any money on an MMO is paying to win. If you did not earn 100% of your tp by grinding favor then you paid to win. If you have a VIP subscription instead of grinding favor then you are paying to win. All MMO's have always been pay to win since you have to spend money to play them. The only exceptions are F2P MMO's that can be played entirely for free (such as DDO and LOTRO if you are dedicated enough to never pay a penny). I know people argue that buying a quest pack is not pay to win because you still have to play the quest pack but true F2P players (the ones that are not paying to win) had to grind for many hours for what you got by spending a little money (just like a +5 tome). You can arguing that buying the quest pack does not make you stronger, you have to play it to make you stronger. Buying a tome does not make you better either, you have to use it and then play the game to see any effects (I suppose you could use it and then just stand still in town, but if you don't go quest after using it you will never appreciate what the tome did for you).

Feel free to rebut these argument, but make sure you don't rules lawyer the definition of pay to win (which you will have to). Any money spent in any form enables you to bypass grinding for what you want. Everyone has their own threshold and some people like to complain when other people pass that threshold. I actually enjoy earning my TP and buying things with it. It is far more rewarding for me to know that my expansion and augment bag came from running quests for TP rather than paying to win by simply buying it with real money. The difference is, I don't actually expect everyone to have the same pay-to-win threshold that I do. I consider most of what other players do to be paying to bypass playing the game. Every VIP with their 10% experience boost (many of which use experience elixirs as well) are paying to avoid playing the same quests that I do every life. That is fine. The problem is those same pay-to-winners then have the audacity to come on to the forums and berate other players that are simply using a different form of pay-to-win than they are.

[Chai]

I would like to take a moment to make it very clear that the Term P2W has not Evolved, People are simply using it incorrectly for shock value.

The truth is, what Turbine is doing is not P2W at all, what they are doing would typically be called "fleecing (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fleecing)",perhaps, even "Hustling (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hustling)", while others might call it "giving the players what they want" after all, not everyone wants to farm tomes in this game.

But, "Fleecing" or "Hustling" does not have the shock value of P2W among the gamer community, so now all that happened was someone used the term P2W for propaganda purposes and started a several page dispute on what is P2W, and at the end of the day, this is not it.

Fleecing and hustling as terms have more shock value than the term p2w. If someone claims Turbine is fleecing its customers with new store items that has more shock value than if someone said turbine put new p2w items in the store.

There is no shock value in the term p2w at all. People act like they are offended, and then turn around and wage arguments that are far more offensive and personal than anything the term p2w brings to the table. When they attempt to demonize those they disagree with, addressing the poster rather than address the post itself, it is a clear indication of having nothing to contribute to the discussion other than attempted disruption using analysis paralysis for 4 straight years arguing the definition of a term they clearly understand the meaning of in the context of its use. You can go ahead and use your own term if you want, but me, Ima go straight George Carlin and call it what it is.

[Chai]

The rebuttals lack merit because the argument lacks it as well. If you want me to avoid rules lawyering the definition and stick with the slang term then anyone that spends any money on an MMO is paying to win. If you did not earn 100% of your tp by grinding favor then you paid to win. If you have a VIP subscription instead of grinding favor then you are paying to win. All MMO's have always been pay to win since you have to spend money to play them. The only exceptions are F2P MMO's that can be played entirely for free (such as DDO and LOTRO if you are dedicated enough to never pay a penny). I know people argue that buying a quest pack is not pay to win because you still have to play the quest pack but true F2P players (the ones that are not paying to win) had to grind for many hours for what you got by spending a little money (just like a +5 tome). You can arguing that buying the quest pack does not make you stronger, you have to play it to make you stronger. Buying a tome does not make you better either, you have to use it and then play the game to see any effects (I suppose you could use it and then just stand still in town, but if you don't go quest after using it you will never appreciate what the tome did for you).

Feel free to rebut these argument, but make sure you don't rules lawyer the definition of pay to win (which you will have to). Any money spent in any form enables you to bypass grinding for what you want. Everyone has their own threshold and some people like to complain when other people pass that threshold. I actually enjoy earning my TP and buying things with it. It is far more rewarding for me to know that my expansion and augment bag came from running quests for TP rather than paying to win by simply buying it with real money. The difference is, I don't actually expect everyone to have the same pay-to-win threshold that I do. I consider most of what other players do to be paying to bypass playing the game. Every VIP with their 10% experience boost (many of which use experience elixirs as well) are paying to avoid playing the same quests that I do every life. That is fine. The problem is those same pay-to-winners then have the audacity to come on to the forums and berate other players that are simply using a different form of pay-to-win than they are.

Its not necessary to rules lawyer the term, because it already has a widely accepted meaning - which is exactly how I am using it.

[Ungood]

Its not necessary to rules lawyer the term, because it already has a widely accepted meaning - which is exactly how I am using it.

No, you're not, and quite a few people have been trying to tell you that.

[Chai]

No, you're not, and quite a few people have been trying to tell you that.

And are incorrect. Congrats on disrupting another discussion of a topic using analysis paralysis. See you in the next p2w thread, where you will no doubt do this all over again, rather than participating in the actual discussion and addressing posts and points made.

[Postumus]

Now Chai is well known for going to any lengths and making himself look like a buffoon to cling to his point, I encourage you not to join him.


I don't know how you can doubt the veracity of one of the guys who helped develop DnD.

[Gkar]

I see people still use the argument "its only +1 more". we are up to +5 more. the increase in points has nothing to do with P2W, at least my arguments don't, its more about the P2W effects it has on the game as a whole. and no, im not just talking about what 1 person does. buying tomes doesn't improve player skill, but it doesn't help make a player any better. the character itself might be a bit stronger, but the player still needs to actually play the game to acquire any kind of skill.

But that wasn't my argument. I said, and you quoted, +1 and +5 are almost the same. I could also have said no tome and +5 are almost the same, except technically it would be no tome and +4 or +6 (when they come out).

As YOU pointed out, it makes little real difference what tome you give the person, and even on the best (or worst) player out there +5 for a stat at end game is almost meaningless most of the time given the statflation. If a powerful end game character still had 25 STR, yeah, +5 is notacable, but with lightweight builds putting out 50+, and EDs putting out damage (or boosts to DCs/Saves/etc) that dwarfs the entire stat point enhancement 5 is a "who cares" at best.

[Gkar]

The widely accepted definition encompasses

And by widely you mean you and one or two other people.

[Gkar]

I don't know how you can doubt the veracity of one of the guys who helped develop DnD.

Yeah, its been hard to take anything he said seriously since that LMAO.

[Ungood]

And are incorrect. Congrats on disrupting another discussion of a topic using analysis paralysis. See you in the next p2w thread, where you will no doubt do this all over again, rather than participating in the actual discussion and addressing posts and points made.

It is clear you do not understand this phrase, you do not know it's meaning, or history, or what it entails, and even in face of this, you still endlessly carry on the same mindless mantra.

So, yes, no doubt, you will be in the next P2W thread, in your typical self using the phrase incorrectly, and people will try to show you that, and you will continue to show the world that you refuse to listen or learn anything.

Thankfully, you are not my burden, and in this case, I have shown other people on this topic the correct use of the phrase, in that spirit I have educated those willing to listen and learn. I can not ask for more then that, so I won't, and I'll be content with what I did accomplish.

Till next time, I bid you a farewell.

[Chai]

And by widely you mean you and one or two other people.

Quite a few more than that actually.

per Urban Dictionary, the #1 definition of "Pay-to-win":


Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Of course those who disagree will simply and predictably move to demonize mock or dismiss the source of information, lacking any real refutation.

[katz]

Quite a few more than that actually.

per Urban Dictionary, the #1 definition of "Pay-to-win":



Of course those who disagree will simply and predictably move to demonize mock or dismiss the source of information, lacking any real refutation.


lol really? reading fail. try going back and re-reading my post (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422867-5-Tomes-not-surprised-just-sad?p=5079535&viewfull=1#post5079535).

[Ungood]

Quite a few more than that actually.

per Urban Dictionary, the #1 definition of "Pay-to-win":


Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Of course those who disagree will simply and predictably move to demonize mock or dismiss the source of information, lacking any real refutation.

Why would anyone do that. This totally agrees with what I, and others, have been saying all along, and disagrees with everything you have been saying.

[erethizon]

Its not necessary to rules lawyer the term, because it already has a widely accepted meaning - which is exactly how I am using it.

So what exactly are you arguing here? It appears to me that any person that has put any money into this game since it went F2P is a pay-to-win player because they have spent money on something that they could have earned in game instead. If that is what we are saying then all F2P games are pay-to-win games (by that very lax definition of the term). If that term is too lax then please define it for us. What does pay-to-win mean to you? Other people have given definitions of pay-to-win and you have rejected them out-of-hand. But thankfully you have said that P2W already has a widely accepted meaning so please, tell us what that widely accepted definition is so we can all discuss the same thing. If we are using several different definitions of P2W then it becomes really hard to have a conversation. I feel like we are having a conversation about whether the weather is cold with one of us thinking it's not cold unless it's 30 degrees, another saying cold starts at 60 degrees, and another saying cold starts at 90 degrees.

[Gkar]

Quite a few more than that actually.

per Urban Dictionary, the #1 definition of "Pay-to-win":

Of course those who disagree will simply and predictably move to demonize mock or dismiss the source of information, lacking any real refutation.

You might want to finish the quote and not cut it off. Let's actually go with the full quote from your source:



Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.
Dude, you've spent like 400 bucks on this game so you can beat everyone who hasn't spent any money. Pay-to-win noob!

Your definition, from your source, doesn't apply to DDO, with the exception of the sale of Epic Destinies.

Nothing about a person having a +5 through purchase before a more skilled player can pull it in game considering that +5 at the current stat levels really means almost nothing if you run the numbers. By a long shot, skilled play will people out a couple stat points. The same is true of pretty much everything not ED related in the store.

Name one thing in the store, other than ED items (which ARE P2W even though you like them) which can allow someone spending a large sum of money to "beat everyone who hasn't spent any money" or gives such power that a person who spends $ has such power that it unbalances the game for those who haven't spent $. Edit: Wait, SP pots debatable may qualify, but find me something else.

[Chai]

Why would anyone do that. This totally agrees with what I, and others, have been saying all along, and disagrees with everything you have been saying.

Absolutely not. Note the FASTER RATE.

[Chai]

You might want to finish the quote and not cut it off. Let's actually go with the full quote from your source:



Your definition, from your source, doesn't apply to DDO, with the exception of the sale of Epic Destinies.

Nothing about a person having a +5 through purchase before a more skilled player can pull it in game considering that +5 at the current stat levels really means almost nothing if you run the numbers. By a long shot, skilled play will people out a couple stat points. The same is true of pretty much everything not ED related in the store.

Name one thing in the store, other than ED items (which ARE P2W even though you like them) which can allow someone spending a large sum of money to "beat everyone who hasn't spent any money" or gives such power that a person who spends $ has such power that it unbalances the game for those who haven't spent $. Edit: Wait, SP pots debatable may qualify, but find me something else.

The definition applies to anything that involves paying to acquire at a faster rate, which DDO has quite a bit more of than EDs.

[katz]

Absolutely not. Note the FASTER RATE.

lol, did i call it or did i call it?


...and i know you will immediately jump on the one little bit that says "at a faster rate"...


here... i'll repeat what i said earlier for your, and everyone else's benefit...


i challenge you and say this: all the money in the world doesn't buy skill. the day that a brand new fresh noob can open the DDO store and outfit themselves head to toe in raid gear and tomes and everything, if i can't play circles around them buck nakked because of my skill and my meta-knowledge of the game... THAT is when DDO is "pay to win".

DDO offers CONVENIENCE ITEMS. you don't have to buy them to "win" ("winning" an open-ended MMO is yet another argument entirely that i don't want to re-hash right now either). i give ya an example. they put +4 tomes in the store for a limited time. i snapped up one of the "supreme" tomes, which was actually 6 individual tomes, and distributed them across a few of my characters. my friend, on the other hand, farmed +4 tomes in game, and got all the stats but one (one he didn't need) all on his one main character. i consider him to be a better player than i am (he has, afterall, solo-ed FoT, and i haven't) and yet i'm the one who "payed to "win"". i didn't pay to win, i paid for the convenience to even my stats and not spend endless hours after i'm already exhausted from work to do it. i play to have fun, not mindlessly grind the same few perfect loot or xp quests



but really.. it's simple. don't like it, don't buy it.


also... reread that definition... it says "BETTER" items. the things you all are crying about can be attained in the game. so they aren't "better". faster, yes. better, no.

bah. whatever

[Ungood]

The definition applies to anything that involves paying to acquire at a faster rate, which DDO has quite a bit more of than EDs.

No. As others have pointed it out, it only applies to better items, not the same or inferior items.

[katz]

The definition applies to anything that involves paying to acquire at a faster rate, which DDO has quite a bit more of than EDs.


WRONG





Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.




try again.

[EllisDee37]

There is certainly some amount of pay-to-win in DDO. However much there is, in total let's call it 100% of the pay-to-winness. To break that 100% down into its constituent parts would look something like:

0.0001% +5 tomes
0.0001% bells of opening
0.0001% gold seal hirelings
4.9997% epic destinies
95% store mana pots

Nothing since mana pots is even on the radar of meaningful pay-to-win by comparison, and any harping about pay-to-win at this point is foolishness because it's totally missing the forest for the trees. There's an 800 pound gorilla in the room and he's aggroed on you; who cares about the mosquito biting your shoulder?

[Ungood]

I should know better.. removed.

[morkahn82]

The whole game is about character progression (including gearing) and completing quests. P2W is buying stuff in store which makes it easier.

Is Buying ... P2W?
Cosmetics? No.
Bank and Inventory Space? No.
Adventure Packs, Classes, Races, Destinies, Iconic Heroes? No. That is content. This is actually required to play the whole game.

P2W is paying bucks for:
Tomes? Yes, they make your character stronger (regardless how high tome level is, you only buy them if tome from store is higher than your actual inherent bonus), making it easier to complete quest. Hence, you complete quests faster and more likely.
Experience Potions and stones of experience? Yes, you get a bonus to xp or immediate xp. Faster character progression.
Gear? Yes. Luckily there is not too much gear in DDO store.
VIP? Yes. 10% experience bonus makes you reach your goal faster i.e. character progression.
SP Potions? Yes of course.
Bells of opening? Yes.
Resurrect Cakes? Guess what, yes.

There is actually no reason to blame the client to buy these P2W offers (I do not blame the client nor VIP players, and I do not want you to impute it to me) as they are not responsible for the offers of the vendor. It is time to blame the vendor. Without offering P2W deals, game mechanics could be changed that e.g. rare tomes, experience elixirs, sp potions, drop more likely in game. Without the possibility of buying P2W deals in store to reduce the grind, the grind could be reduced globally by changing game mechanics. The whole trick of making cash with p2w is making items (tomes, sp potions, xp potions ...) rare and put them in store. There are two ways to change it. Either players stop buying these offers or the vendors stop offering these products. None of these options will happen. Leaving great games with a vapid aftertaste.

But after all, it is too late to turn this game in a non-p2w game again. I just hope for a paradigm change for future games. F2P is just a marketing gag to claim a game "free", where all of them are p2w, some of them more rude than others. DDO is not too rude in context of P2W, there are games worse, but shame that you have chosen the way of P2W at all.

[PurpleTimb]

I don't care one way or the other about the 'pay to win' argument.

With +5 tomes available in the store, what end game loot will keep players running and rerunning the same quests over and over again? Yes, I know there are items more rare and desirable than +5 tomes, but not many and even fewer that are desired by every build.

Whether or not +5 stat tomes matter much to a character I think is irrelevant. What will make or break the game is keeping players interested in continuing to play the game in order to improve their characters. Store sales of the rarest of the rare items will only lead to more players becoming bored with the game and choosing to move on to other things.

[Forzah]

The whole game is about character progression (including gearing) and completing quests. P2W is buying stuff in store which makes it easier.

Is Buying ... P2W?
Cosmetics? No.
Bank and Inventory Space? No.
Adventure Packs, Classes, Races, Destinies, Iconic Heroes? No. That is content. This is actually required to play the whole game.

P2W is paying bucks for:
Tomes? Yes, they make your character stronger (regardless how high tome level is, you only buy them if tome from store is higher than your actual inherent bonus), making it easier to complete quest. Hence, you complete quests faster and more likely.
Experience Potions and stones of experience? Yes, you get a bonus to xp or immediate xp. Faster character progression.
Gear? Yes. Luckily there is not too much gear in DDO store.
VIP? Yes. 10% experience bonus makes you reach your goal faster i.e. character progression.
SP Potions? Yes of course.
Bells of opening? Yes.
Resurrect Cakes? Guess what, yes.


This definition of P2W is spot-on. Exactly what I tried to say in an earlier post.

[Chai]

No. As others have pointed it out, it only applies to better items, not the same or inferior items.

And the entire reason people buy those items or buy the ability to acquire them faster is because they are better.

[Chai]

WRONG



try again.

Nope, Im right, better gear is what they are paying for, and its better than anyone else who doesn't pay can have in the same time frame.

You guys are pretty passionate about arguing the definition of one term over 4 years in threads that have nothing to do with the definition of the term itself. But that term gets used in a discussion and the entire thread gets disrupted in another predictable lawyer fest. Meanwhile not only am I correct on the definition, but the entire rest of my premise goes unchallenged and unanswered, which is exactly what the disruption tactic is being used for in the first place. Cant refute stance, must....disagree...with.....Chai..... tangent quickly!!!!

[Qhualor]

I honestly don't care what you guys think is P2W or not and I really don't care how you define it. derailing the whole argument just to prove you can define an acronym differently than others and quoting an unofficial definition that someone else posted when games were more common using the pay to advance your character because it was the only way to do so doesn't change the fact that selling store items impact DDO. when you guys want to discuss the impact of <insert whatever acronym you want> items and how it affects DDO, the player base and other aspects than I will discuss it. the rest of the argument is just dumb.

[Ungood]

And the entire reason people buy those items or buy the ability to acquire them faster is because they are better.

LOL! Do you even still play this game? Has perhaps playing Neverwinter warped your bran a little?

Here in DDO, Store-bought tomes are B2C, so you have to use them on the character you bought them on, this actually makes them worse then Looted tomes which are unbound and can be traded to alts or sold for better/other items you may want. Thus the in-game tomes are in fact a more valuable commodity then the bought ones.

[Ungood]

The whole game is about character progression (including gearing) and completing quests. P2W is buying stuff in store which makes it easier.

Is Buying ... P2W?
Cosmetics? No.
Bank and Inventory Space? No.
Adventure Packs, Classes, Races, Destinies, Iconic Heroes? No. That is content. This is actually required to play the whole game.

This is not really correct.

Adventure Packs: about the oldest P2W in DDO, because buying adventure packs, or more to the point, having items that can only be obtained in those adventure packs is what Pay to Win is all about, because if you want access to the best stuff, or specialty unique stuff in the game, then you need to pay for it, either by being ViP, getting a pass, or buying the pack. Otherwise such things are denied to you. This is the very core idea of what P2W built off of.

Now some of the newer packs have made the loot from them BtCoE, so they can sold, this circumvent those packs from being P2W, because you can get the items and gear from them by free means.


I honestly don't care what you guys think is P2W or not and I really don't care how you define it. derailing the whole argument just to prove you can define an acronym differently than others and quoting an unofficial definition that someone else posted when games were more common using the pay to advance your character because it was the only way to do so doesn't change the fact that selling store items impact DDO. when you guys want to discuss the impact of <insert whatever acronym you want> items and how it affects DDO, the player base and other aspects than I will discuss it. the rest of the argument is just dumb.

Buying Tomes is not really P2W because iirc, they can be farmed out of F2P quests at this point thus they can be obtained totally free, and available to everyone in the game. All you would accomplish by buying the tome would be to be able to sell/trade any tome you looted for perhaps another item you may be looking for, or be able to pass it on to an alt.

In that front, putting tomes in the store is in fact better for the game as it puts more of the looted tomes into the hands of the populace, and this makes them more available to the player base that did not buy them. In that avenue, players paying to get their tomes, is a win even for the people that didn't.

[Chai]

LOL! Do you even still play this game? Has perhaps playing Neverwinter warped your bran a little?

Here in DDO, Store-bought tomes are B2C, so you have to use them on the character you bought them on, this actually makes them worse then Looted tomes which are unbound and can be traded to alts or sold for better/other items you may want. Thus the in-game tomes are in fact a more valuable commodity then the bought ones.

Which is more irrelevant lawyering. The reason to buy a tome is to use it, not to pass it from toon to toon. Most of the populace who haven't bought tomes doesn't have +5s across the board. Those who buy them, do. The entire definition youre trying to restrict people into using hinges on a number of technicalities which are all your own personal justifications for why it would be harmless to the game, and while you are entitled to that opinion, that doesn't change it from being p2w.




Buying Tomes is not really P2W because iirc, they can be farmed out of F2P quests at this point thus they can be obtained totally free, and available to everyone in the game.

Another technicality based on your own personal justification.


All you would accomplish by buying the tome would be to be able to sell/trade any tome you looted for perhaps another item you may be looking for, or be able to pass it on to an alt.

Nope, what the buyer is really accomplishing is not having to farm tomes at all - they purchase them outright.

[Ungood]

Nope, Im right, better gear is what they are paying for, and its better than anyone else who doesn't pay can have in the same time frame.

You guys are pretty passionate about arguing the definition of one term over 4 years in threads that have nothing to do with the definition of the term itself. But that term gets used in a discussion and the entire thread gets disrupted in another predictable lawyer fest. Meanwhile not only am I correct on the definition, but the entire rest of my premise goes unchallenged and unanswered, which is exactly what the disruption tactic is being used for in the first place. Cant refute stance, must....disagree...with.....Chai..... tangent quickly!!!!

Has it ever crossed your mind that the reason why so many people are disagreeing with you is because you are wrong, and the only reason why this thread is getting derailed, is because people are enjoying watching the train wreck of your inability to realize that?

[Forzah]

This is not really correct.

Adventure Packs: about the oldest P2W in DDO, because buying adventure packs, or more to the point, having items that can only be obtained in those adventure packs is what Pay to Win is all about, because if you want access to the best stuff, or specialty unique stuff in the game, then you need to pay for it, either by being ViP, getting a pass, or buying the pack. Otherwise such things are denied to you. This is the very core idea of what P2W built off of.

Now some of the newer packs have made the loot from them BtCoE, so they can sold, this circumvent those packs from being P2W, because you can get the items and gear from them by free means.

The core of the game (content and classes) is by definition not P2W - it's pay to play..



Buying Tomes is not really P2W because iirc, they can be farmed out of F2P quests at this point thus they can be obtained totally free, and available to everyone in the game. All you would accomplish by buying the tome would be to be able to sell/trade any tome you looted for perhaps another item you may be looking for, or be able to pass it on to an alt.

Buying tomes is P2W since it is an artificial means of increasing the speed of character progression. In the core of the game you would have to run quests or gather resources for trading to get these tomes. You can artificially get these items from outside of the core of the game by buying them from the store. That is definitely P2W.

[Ungood]

Nope, what the buyer is really accomplishing is not having to farm tomes at all - they purchase them outright.

So they pay some cash to be able play the game for the fun of it, and not need to farm for an item is somehow a bad thing you?

You know For someone who said:


Me personally, I think good random gen loot is the best thing that ever happened to this game. (Sic) Now people can play content because they enjoy it, and not feel obligated to play specific content they may not enjoy because an item they want only drops from that content.

You seem to really flip-flop all over the place on your stands.

[Impaqt]

I don't care one way or the other about the 'pay to win' argument.

With +5 tomes available in the store, what end game loot will keep players running and rerunning the same quests over and over again? Yes, I know there are items more rare and desirable than +5 tomes, but not many and even fewer that are desired by every build.

Whether or not +5 stat tomes matter much to a character I think is irrelevant. What will make or break the game is keeping players interested in continuing to play the game in order to improve their characters. Store sales of the rarest of the rare items will only lead to more players becoming bored with the game and choosing to move on to other things.

The people buying +5 tomes are most likely never stepping foot into an EE CiTW anyway. heck, I'd be surprised if they raided on a regular basis at all.

[Forzah]

Has it ever crossed your mind that the reason why so many people are disagreeing with you is because you are wrong, and the only reason why this thread is getting derailed, is because people are enjoying watching the train wreck of your inability to realize that?

Usually I don't agree with Chai. The points he addresses are, in my opinion, often invalid. However, I do believe he is right about what is P2W.

[Chai]

Has it ever crossed your mind that the reason why so many people are disagreeing with you is because you are wrong, and the only reason why this thread is getting derailed, is because people are enjoying watching the train wreck of your inability to realize that?

By this "quantity = correctness" logic, the earth was flat until a few hundred years ago, simply because people who wanted to deny it was round could drum up more people to agree with them. Quantity based arguments do not make them correct. You can drum up more people who agree with you on the internet, congrats. Note that they are all avoiding the actual premise of my stance on the issue and engaging in the same targeting as you are, due to having no refutation of the actual premise itself. Also note that it is the same few people who always disagree with Chai who are doing so once again.

[Chai]

so they pay some cash to be able to avoid playing most of the game, and not need to farm for an item....

ftfy

[Chai]

You know For someone who said:

You seem to really flip-flop all over the place on your stands.

Tomes don't drop out of specific content. The ones that do can be sold on the AH for plat or trades for other items, like they used to before that part of the game became based on real money. Im on a boat, you can keep your flippy floppies.

[erethizon]

By this "quantity = correctness" logic, the earth was flat until a few hundred years ago, simply because people who wanted to deny it was round could drum up more people to agree with them. Quantity based arguments do not make them correct. You can drum up more people who agree with you on the internet, congrats. Note that they are all avoiding the actual premise of my stance on the issue and engaging in the same targeting as you are, due to having no refutation of the actual premise itself. Also note that it is the same few people who always disagree with Chai who are doing so once again.

What is the actual premise of your stance that everyone is avoiding? I have seen you say a few times that everyone is avoiding it, but you have not stated what it is for so long that I no longer recall what your stance was.

[Ungood]

The core of the game (content and classes) is by definition not P2W - it's pay to play..

Umm from Wiki- Pay to Play :
The term is used as slang to refer to Internet services that require that users pay to use them. Usually, it refers to MMORPGs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMORPG), where players must pay to maintain a playing account. This is in contrast to free-to-play (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play) games.

In the sense of selling "better" things like content, packs, races, classes, they are all forms of power-ups and can cross into the P2W venture. Just because this is how Turbine opted to do it, and has been doing it for 4 years now, does not give them an exempt status to making exclusive "better" content Paid Only.

[Gkar]

Right, which is what they did for a number of years actually. The eSOS was the best weapon in the game for 3 years. It still is in many circumstances, just not all.

Its more like: "Please turbine add new content but none of it can drop loot that invalidates old stuff i paid soooooo much for in the past, okay thanks".

Who said this? I want to see a link because it looks like you are just making stuff up again.

I know people said that about lootflation in general (which is a horrible thing for this game) but what did someone PAY for that is now invalidated or where did anyone claim that besides you?

[Gkar]

The definition applies to anything that involves paying to acquire at a faster rate, which DDO has quite a bit more of than EDs.

Now you are rules lawyering and strawmanning all at once lol. With THAT shortened definition, not the one given in the full context of YOUR source, everything that you pay for in game (including all content packs) is P2W.

Plus of course you ducked the question completely. How about answering it?

[Ungood]

By this "quantity = correctness" logic, the earth was flat until a few hundred years ago

The world circumference was measured before England was a country.


simply because people who wanted to deny it was round could drum up more people to agree with them. Quantity based arguments do not make them correct. You can drum up more people who agree with you on the internet, congrats.

I ain't drumming up anything, people read this discussion and they see you are wrong. If anyone is crying for a flat earth, it's you.

[Ungood]

ftfy

That exactly what the better loot gen does.. allow people to not play the game.. which you think is the best thing ever!

you're not only flip flopping, you're on a sinking ship.

[Qhualor]

This is not really correct.

Adventure Packs: about the oldest P2W in DDO, because buying adventure packs, or more to the point, having items that can only be obtained in those adventure packs is what Pay to Win is all about, because if you want access to the best stuff, or specialty unique stuff in the game, then you need to pay for it, either by being ViP, getting a pass, or buying the pack. Otherwise such things are denied to you. This is the very core idea of what P2W built off of.

Now some of the newer packs have made the loot from them BtCoE, so they can sold, this circumvent those packs from being P2W, because you can get the items and gear from them by free means.



Buying Tomes is not really P2W because iirc, they can be farmed out of F2P quests at this point thus they can be obtained totally free, and available to everyone in the game. All you would accomplish by buying the tome would be to be able to sell/trade any tome you looted for perhaps another item you may be looking for, or be able to pass it on to an alt.

In that front, putting tomes in the store is in fact better for the game as it puts more of the looted tomes into the hands of the populace, and this makes them more available to the player base that did not buy them. In that avenue, players paying to get their tomes, is a win even for the people that didn't.

It may put more looted tomes on the AH or P2WAH, but it also means people have 1 less reason to replay content. There are people who farm specific quests for tomes. Its already hard enough to get people to play outside of guild, we don't need more reasons to make it worse. There are times you can't always get a group together in guild even. Tomes are only 1 specific cause. Throw in other store products and it just adds more logs to the fire.

[Impaqt]

How exactly do you "win" ddo?

How many folks that Bought a stack of +5 Tomes run raids on a regular basis?

How many folks that buy +5 Tomes do you look at and say "Man, that guy(or gal) knows his(her) *&^%! I can only hope that someday I can be as good."

You are crying about winning something that's not winnable.

thats really funny.

Who cares who buys Tomes in the DDO store? It doesnt effect my gameplay at all. It doesnt effect your gameplay. Nobody is winning.

[katz]

so they pay some cash to be able to avoid playing most of the game, and not need to farm for an item....ftfy


wow really? so what, pray tell, was i doing with myself when i was running with my friend as he got himself his +4 tomes? sure as heck didn't feel like i was avoiding anything. i own ALL content except for the most recent pack. my TR train consists of "do every quest on elite once." none of this 'farm quest X for Y times, go to next quest" ****. who's REALLY experiencing the game to it's fullest? Me, or some one who's farming quest X,Y, Z, and raids A, and B because they have the best chance to drop a tome they want.

please do not presume to tell me what i am and am not avoiding and how (YOU THINK) i play, simply because i chose to "win" by buying some +4 tomes in the store.

[Qhualor]

Umm from Wiki- Pay to Play :

In the sense of selling "better" things like content, packs, races, classes, they are all forms of power-ups and can cross into the P2W venture. Just because this is how Turbine opted to do it, and has been doing it for 4 years now, does not give them an exempt status to making exclusive "better" content Paid Only.

That's funny you think paying for a sub, buying certain classes and races and paying to have access to content is P2W. There are no this class is more powerful than the other and having access to content does not guarantee you powerful loot. If that was the case than where are my +5 tomes and all my characters should have an ESOS?

[Forzah]

Now you are rules lawyering and strawmanning all at once lol. With THAT shortened definition, not the one given in the full context of YOUR source, everything that you pay for in game (including all content packs) is P2W.


Just realize that almost everything you pay for in this game is P2W, except for content and visual features. That said, P2W is not a bad thing per sé. Some P2W items may actually be good for the game or have little influence..

[Qhualor]

How exactly do you "win" ddo?

How many folks that Bought a stack of +5 Tomes run raids on a regular basis?

How many folks that buy +5 Tomes do you look at and say "Man, that guy(or gal) knows his(her) *&^%! I can only hope that someday I can be as good."

You are crying about winning something that's not winnable.

thats really funny.

Who cares who buys Tomes in the DDO store? It doesnt effect my gameplay at all. It doesnt effect your gameplay. Nobody is winning.

See, this is the confusion we are having. There is no common acronym to use in DDO that people can agree with. Nobody actually wins anything and by buying "power ups" it just makes your character better, not the player. Tomes won't affect anyone playing, but in a round about way its just one more reason to not replay content.

[katz]

fine ya know what? here it is

I'M PAY TO WIN AND I'M PROUD OF IT!


i've bought tomes. i've bought cakes. i've bought SP pots. i've bought hearts...lesser, greater, and true. i've bought hires. i've bought an otto's box. i've bought every pack (except the most recent one) because i'm not VIP, and i need to pay to access those packs and that loot. i've bought a blessed silver quarterstaff to use as a crafting blank.


and i'm happy that i've bought these items and allowed me to ENJOY the game at my leisure at my pace. i can enjoy the game MORE because i don't have to worry about farming X,Y,Z. i'm proud to have supported this game with my wallet so all the freeloaders can turn this game into a full-time job to farm all the favor to buy the packs for free, to farm all the tomes so Turbine doesn't get one red cent of their IRL cash. someone has to pay the staff at Turbine, or we don't get new content... we get closed doors and no game to play at all. your welcome.

i'm done here.

[Ungood]

That's funny you think paying for a sub, buying certain classes and races and paying to have access to content is P2W. There are no this class is more powerful than the other and having access to content does not guarantee you powerful loot.

I would like to add that I do not like you making up lies about me. What you said was a direct trolling by misrepresenting what I said.

However, to keep it simple, so maybe you can understand this, If the bold part is true, then it's not P2W. It's a simple as that.

It is only P2W if having access to the content, (which includes: classes, races, gear, areas) ensures that those who have the content will have an edge over those that don't regardless of skill, ability, or time played.

So, do you think with some effort and time, you could invalidate some's cash purchase by farming the tomes yourself for free? If yes, then it's not P2W.

/discussion.

[Forzah]

So, do you think with some effort and time, you could invalidate some's cash purchase by farming the tomes yourself for free? If yes, then it's not P2W.

You don't really seem to want to understand, eh? You buy a tome to speed up the farming process and reach the goals for your character faster. Hence, it's P2W. It is irrelevant whether there are other means to get the tome.

[Ungood]

You don't really seem to want to understand, eh? You buy a tome to speed up the farming process and reach the goals for your character faster. Hence, it's P2W. It is irrelevant whether there are other means to get the tome.

At this point, You don't get it, so let me try to make this as simple as I can.

P2W = Money > Everything Else.

[Chai]

wow really? so what, pray tell, was i doing with myself when i was running with my friend as he got himself his +4 tomes? sure as heck didn't feel like i was avoiding anything. i own ALL content except for the most recent pack. my TR train consists of "do every quest on elite once." none of this 'farm quest X for Y times, go to next quest" ****. who's REALLY experiencing the game to it's fullest? Me, or some one who's farming quest X,Y, Z, and raids A, and B because they have the best chance to drop a tome they want.

please do not presume to tell me what i am and am not avoiding and how (YOU THINK) i play, simply because i chose to "win" by buying some +4 tomes in the store.

WHen you pay for a tome, you are paying to not grind the tome. Period. You are purchasing raw character power, Period. We can lawyer it all we want, slice it and dice it all we want, justify it with whatever technicality about how we can farm it in game all we want, but it is still purchasing raw character power.

Ity is not a question of your personal playstyle, my personal playstyle or jesus personal playstyle. Its the clear understanding that buying character power is p2w.

Everything you have stated agrees with my premise btw, even though you are attempting to disagree. You are defining someone playing to earn tomes as experiencing the game more. If the tome is not earned through that play however, then buying it is literally avoiding playing the game in a way you do not wish to, which agrees with my entire premise that just enough irritation is designed into the game that not only makes people want to pay to avoid it, but makes them justify doing so - which I have alot more respect for than people trying to bog the entire discussion down with lawyering of definitions.

However, justification of this supports designing other irritation into the game in order to entice players to pay to circumvent it. This update weve seen the need to add int in order to make use of these new skills, while at the same time still wanting to qualify for feats which either need a 21 or 23 raw stat + tomes to qualify for. If you want 3 of those feats and they all hinge on having different stat requirements (epic toughness, overwhelming crit, and combat archery for instance) then tomes will be needed. People can either farm them, or pay for them. Or - they can have a character that does less then those who farmed or paid. Justify the paid convenience now, and the game simply gets designed around more of the same.

[Chai]

That exactly what the better loot gen does.. allow people to not play the game.. which you think is the best thing ever!

you're not only flip flopping, you're on a sinking ship.

If this is what your argument hinges on? Me stating that I like the fact that random loot now matters again? Note that neither random loot nor tomes drop in specific content (its why they call it random). If the conversation is about basketball, youre on a baseball diamond at this point comparing these two things.

[Forzah]

At this point, You don't get it, so let me try to make this as simple as I can.

P2W = Money > Everything Else.

That's the shallow definition of P2W which is mostly used by simple people. I use a broader definition:

P2W = any paid means which increases the speed of reaching the games objective

[Chai]

fine ya know what? here it is

I'M PAY TO WIN AND I'M PROUD OF IT!


i've bought tomes. i've bought cakes. i've bought SP pots. i've bought hearts...lesser, greater, and true. i've bought hires. i've bought an otto's box. i've bought every pack (except the most recent one) because i'm not VIP, and i need to pay to access those packs and that loot. i've bought a blessed silver quarterstaff to use as a crafting blank.


and i'm happy that i've bought these items and allowed me to ENJOY the game at my leisure at my pace. i can enjoy the game MORE because i don't have to worry about farming X,Y,Z. i'm proud to have supported this game with my wallet so all the freeloaders can turn this game into a full-time job to farm all the favor to buy the packs for free, to farm all the tomes so Turbine doesn't get one red cent of their IRL cash. someone has to pay the staff at Turbine, or we don't get new content... we get closed doors and no game to play at all. your welcome.

i'm done here.

See, once you stand up and own it, you realize it doesnt have this negative connotation others who are attempting to disagree with me insinutate it has.

As far as the entire "this is what is needed to keep the lights on" stuff - I dont agree. Note that 8 out of 10 of the most populated MMOs right now, are sub games.

[Ungood]

That's the shallow definition of P2W which is mostly used by simple people. I use a broader definition:

P2W = any paid means which increases the speed of reaching the games objective

Thank you for making that clear. We do not agree on this then. So we will have to agree to disagree if this P2W.

[eris2323]

fine ya know what? here it is

I'M PAY TO WIN AND I'M PROUD OF IT!


i've bought tomes. i've bought cakes. i've bought SP pots. i've bought hearts...lesser, greater, and true. i've bought hires. i've bought an otto's box. i've bought every pack (except the most recent one) because i'm not VIP, and i need to pay to access those packs and that loot. i've bought a blessed silver quarterstaff to use as a crafting blank.


and i'm happy that i've bought these items and allowed me to ENJOY the game at my leisure at my pace. i can enjoy the game MORE because i don't have to worry about farming X,Y,Z. i'm proud to have supported this game with my wallet so all the freeloaders can turn this game into a full-time job to farm all the favor to buy the packs for free, to farm all the tomes so Turbine doesn't get one red cent of their IRL cash. someone has to pay the staff at Turbine, or we don't get new content... we get closed doors and no game to play at all. your welcome.

i'm done here.

Exactly. These constant-pay-to-win-posters should go away and let those of us willing to pay for what we want, either in time or in money enjoy the game in our own way.

Can we coin a new term now? Can we call it pay-to-whine, and implement a new feature, where it costs 10 turbine points to post any forum messages about ' pay-to-win?

[Ungood]

See, once you stand up and own it, you realize it doesnt have this negative connotation others who are attempting to disagree with me insinutate it has.

LOL. The problem here is people thought you were using the correct definition. Moving on now.

[Forzah]

It's not simply the act of buying something or getting a bit of power, otherwise being able to buy a +1 sword from the Store would be P2W, and its not because there are other, better, items in the game for available for free.

You are getting bent because "Omg, they get to buy as good an item as I can earn for free"

Think of how stupid that sounds. "They get to buy as good an item as I can get for free"

Say that again, just to let it sink it. "They spend money to get what I can get free"

and you have the audacity to call that P2W?

Go away troll.

It is P2W, too. You need considerably less effort to buy this item from the store than to grind it yourself. Whether or not the item is desirable does not matter. P2W is just what it is, you pay to have to spend less effort and achieve your goals quicker. I'm not talking about whether P2W is good or bad, just the notion of P2W.

[Forzah]

You use the wrong definition then, what do you want me tell you. With that, there is nothing to discuss with you.

It seems that you are not really an academic :(

[danotmano1998]

i'm happy that i've bought these items and allowed me to ENJOY the game at my leisure at my pace.

*Cheers*




This thread is great!
*popcorn*

[katz]

See, once you stand up and own it, you realize it doesnt have this negative connotation others who are attempting to disagree with me insinutate it has.

if "pay to win" didn't have a negative connotation, we wouldn't ever be having this conversation. this would have never blown up into ... how many pages are we on now? i GAVE UP and said "fine", even tho by the definition on UD (which you aren't using properly) i'm NOT pay to win.




As far as the entire "this is what is needed to keep the lights on" stuff - I dont agree. Note that 8 out of 10 of the most populated MMOs right now, are sub games.

my understanding was, Turbine was dying when they switched from a sub model to a free-to-play/microtransaction model. microtrans might not keep the lights on at some other game, but right now, it's what does the job for Turbine. who am i to complain. be happy i'm footing YOUR bill and quit complaining about how i do it. THANKS

[Ungood]

It seems that you are not really an academic :(

My Apologies. I was way to harsh and out of line with you, because I am used to dealing with the frustration that is Chai, and I wrongly took it out on you. Please read my revised post.

[Chai]

It's not simply the act of buying something or getting a bit of power, otherwise being able to buy a +1 sword from the Store would be P2W, and its not because there are other, better, items in the game for available for free.

You are getting bent because "Omg, they get to buy as good an item as I can earn for free"

Think of how stupid that sounds. "They get to buy as good an item as I can get for free"

Say that again, just to let it sink it. "They spend money to get what I can get free"

and you have the audacity to call that P2W?

Go away troll.

You are trying to mix up arguing DEGREE to justify the definition of the ABSOLUTE. I am in favor of degree based arguments and my entire stance has always been about the degree of it in the game and the impact that degree has on the game. Sure buying a +1 weapon would technically be p2w, but the degree of it is negligable to the point where i still wonder why Turbine has low end weapons in the store in the first place. The harder it is to achieve in game the more it increases in degree and the more impact it has on the game. +5 tomes are a perfect example of much higher degree of impact. Raid timer bypass is higher yet in degree - having turned a 60 day grind into a 2 day marathon - 1/30th of the time.

Please refrain from the namecalling. Its not a personal discussion. This is twice now from you. No one is a troll due to disagreeing with your limited definition of the term p2w. Learn how to debate a point without needing to resort to ad hominim to do so.

[eris2323]

be happy i'm footing YOUR bill and quit complaining about how i do it. THANKS

Here, Here!

[Chai]

if "pay to win" didn't have a negative connotation, we wouldn't ever be having this conversation. this would have never blown up into ... how many pages are we on now? i GAVE UP and said "fine", even tho by the definition on UD (which you aren't using properly) i'm NOT pay to win.

P2w doesnt have a negative connotation. There are games coming out right now that are shameless p2w, and do not hide behind the false pretense of technicalities negating the definition.



my understanding was, Turbine was dying when they switched from a sub model to a free-to-play/microtransaction model. microtrans might not keep the lights on at some other game, but right now, it's what does the job for Turbine. who am i to complain. be happy i'm footing YOUR bill and quit complaining about how i do it. THANKS

The game was dying because ATARI was not marketing it, and still holding the license.

You arent footing my bill. Ive been a paying customer for 7 years.

[Ungood]

It is P2W, too. You need considerably less effort to buy this item from the store than to grind it yourself. Whether or not the item is desirable does not matter. P2W is just what it is, you pay to have to spend less effort and achieve your goals quicker. I'm not talking about whether P2W is good or bad, just the notion of P2W.

I am sorry, and I don't mean this be rude, in fact, I am quite happy with your candor to be upfront about what you think P2W is and what it means. Total respect in that venture.

Had this been the case with some other posters with a willingness to be upfront of what they think something means, these kinds of discussions would not exist, In fact, the point that you made it clear what you think P2W is, "being any means to pay to get an objective faster", makes it far easier to have a discussion with you about this. While we will never agree on what P2W means, because, I am an old school gamer, and not to say "get off my lawn" but I played the games that brought about the rise of terms like P2W, and I know what they were like, and what that term means, entals, and the in game stigma attached to it. In a strange way, I am a little taken aback by how waterdown it has become, and thus making it really not a term of discussion or consideration if all you feel it means is "Paying to get to an objective faster" because that means, I can still play the game and enjoy for as little or much as I like and not be restricted. In that front, using the term P2W like that takes all the bite out of it.

Now, unlike Chai who spouted off some obtuse phrasing like "I use the widely accepted term" which is what caused all the problems to start with, because he was in fact not using the widely accepted definition of what is P2W.

Anyway, thank you for the discussion, but we simply do not agree on what P2W means in a teram of it's own right, and that means that we won't be able to agree on if this is P2W or not. I am sure you think it is by the definition you use for P2W.

[katz]

P2w doesnt have a negative connotation.
i think i'll just repeat myself...

if "pay to win" didn't have a negative connotation, we wouldn't ever be having this conversation.
...

There are games coming out right now that are shameless p2w, and do not hide behind the false pretense of technicalities negating the definition.

and i have absolutely no desire to play them. i'll keep playing the game where i can chose to pay or not pay and still be equally powerful, thanks.


You arent footing my bill. Ive been a paying customer for 7 years.
great! so have i! so what're you complaining about again?

[Chai]

and i have absolutely no desire to play them. i'll keep playing the game where i can chose to pay or not pay and still be equally powerful, thanks.


The same game where you can buy raw character power, which does make the toon more powerful, in a much shorter time than it would have taken to obtain that power playing.


great! so have i! so what're you complaining about again?

That supporting p2w begets more of the same. Due to the support it has received, it will be designed into the game to a higher degree in the future. When I said this in the past people attempted to disagree with that as well, and now here we are with raid timer bypass, +5 tomes, and even quest objectives, which can be paid to bypass with RL$.

[katz]

The same game where you can buy raw character power, which does make the toon more powerful, in a much shorter time than it would have taken to obtain that power playing.

not even gonna....




That supporting p2w begets more of the same. Due to the support it has received, it will be designed into the game to a higher degree in the future. When I said this in the past people attempted to disagree with that as well, and now here we are with raid timer bypass, +5 tomes, and even quest objectives, which can be paid to bypass with RL$.

dang man. first you say it doesn't have a negative connotation, now you drop this bomb. make up your mind.

also, which quest objective can be bypassed with money?

[Karavek]

We have bags that can be named? Scroll bags? Potion bags?

We have a bank that is organized?

We have subs that are worth paying for with really nice perks?

These are just a few suggestions that people have asked for and have offered to pay extra for. We don't have them. When a company resorts to P2W to trivialize their own game, it means they want to make a bigger profit or its a last resort to keep player interest. There's enough of an attraction that Turbine could keep the interest of players, but any changes they make has been too little too late as people get fed up and leave or Turbine just won't listen.

Uhm no one but ****** bag VIP types want better VIP perks, its pretty clear since the onset of the hybrid system being premium was not meant to be secondary to subbers, subbing is a dieing concept as its more focussed at adult gamers as the first EQ was. Now days unless it has an actual legal adult restriction like age of conan has with its mature rating, kids are coming in vast numbers. Parents tend to be like *** when they find out a game they just bought a kid also comes with a monthly sub fee.

Likewise no one sane suggest more bag space or custom names for bags, instead we sanely ask for them to completely do away with all the vast waste of program power and server bandwidth that is the bajillion different nick nacks we have to store away. This games lag would vanish overnight if we got rid of all the collectables, ingrediants, and their like. If all we needed was coin and xp to craft ( along with the feats and the need to be on a casting class) would be the much more ideal and D&D like fix this game needs.

No need for scroll bags, potion bags etc, because all the actual good builds in DDO depend entirely on built in ability. Even my rogues these days in epic forsake heal scrolls for cacoon, and just farm tangle root for a stack of do it all pottage so I dont need pots for a variety of status effects.

All I see from your PoV is someone who is still seeing a game a few eras back. Also ViP already get 2 major perks, an XP boost, and the ability to open quests right out the gate on max dif( a stupid advantage as it largely contributes to new players coming to expect it as a dif they can tackle head on from the moment they hit the ground running) Just because TR junkies dont notice that perk does not mean premiums who dont do the TR thing dont feel very annoyed with having to rerun content multiple times when we already know it far to well to even be challenged in most HE if naked, blind, cursed, and disabled from stat dmg.

[Chai]

dang man. first you say it doesn't have a negative connotation, now you drop this bomb. make up your mind.

What i just stated doesnt have a negative connotation.


also, which quest objective can be bypassed with money?

NPCs in quests and in the slayer zones will allow you to donate AS to their cause if your social skills arent high enough to influence them.

PC: But but...you should save yourself from the god aweful prison, yo have the chance, run!!!!"

NPC: "what kind of diplomatic solutuion is that? Now giving me 6 shards will convince me to save my own life..."

[Chai]

Uhm no one but ****** bag VIP types want better VIP perks, its pretty clear since the onset of the hybrid system being premium was not meant to be secondary to subbers, subbing is a dieing concept as its more focussed at adult gamers as the first EQ was. Now days unless it has an actual legal adult restriction like age of conan has with its mature rating, kids are coming in vast numbers. Parents tend to be like *** when they find out a game they just bought a kid also comes with a monthly sub fee.

Kind of odd then, that 8 out of the top 10 of the most populated games are sub games.

[Cordovan]

Due to fighting and insults, this thread is now closed.