Post Expansion Paladin Tank builds?

[Nodoze]

EDIT: In this thread I tried to solicit post expansion builds and got some good advice but no actual builds so I took the advice in the thread and formed a build.

Please review and give any thoughts or improvements you can think of for this build. If you think the over-all idea is really bad or portions don't make sense please say so.

Build Title: Post-Expansion Tanking Paladin;

Build Idea: Primary Goal is Tanking with good threat, Defense & Healing Amp; Secondarily want as high DPS as possible to maintain threat. Thanks for the feedback thus far;

Race: Human (this will be a LR of an existing Paladin);

Classes:
Paladin: 15: High Saves & Defense & Healing Amp + zeal & CSW;
Monk: 2: More Feats & Healing Amp;
Fighter: 2: Feats & Tower Shield
Note: The last level could be any of the above as it doesn't affect things majorly one way or the other... Likely best to do Monk 3.

Stats (too min-maxed?):
Str: 27: 17+3tome+7levels;
Dex: 11: 8+3tome;
Con: 21: 17+3tome (+4 tome or 1 from levels if want Epic Toughness);
Int: 12 : 9+3tome (skills?);
Wis: 11: 8+3tome;
Cha: 16: 13+3tome;

Skills: MAX Intimidate, Concentration, Balance, with min Tumble & Jump;

Feats: Note: Feats are NOT in the order I would take them but rather listed in order of importance for this Tank build. Some feats are not in their "proper" bonus slot because I listed them that way so so we could see what feats we would lose if we weren't human or if we didn't splash the classes...

1 : Quicken (uninterrupted heals when needed);
3 : Empower Healing (healing)
6 : Power Attack
9 : Cleave (*important for Lay Waste & Momentum Swing)
12 : Great Cleave *
15 : Improved Critical
18 : Overwhelming Critical
21 : Shield Mastery
24 : imp Shield Mastery
27 : Bastard Sword
H : THF (with Bastard when tanking)
1F : iTHF
2F : gTHF
1M : Toughness (not as valuable as before)?
2M : Epic Toughness?
Fighter : Tower Shield auto-grant;

Note: Considered Maximize but thought it was too expensive SP-wise;
Note: When cap a primal destiny, swap Epic Toughness for Perfect Two Handed Fighting;
Note: When Level 28 & cap w Martial Destinies maybe swap toughness & take Elusive Target which Each time you would be physically damaged, you have a +5% chance to completely ignore the damage (including spells that deal physical damage).


Enhancements:
Human Racial: 17 action points gets you 30% healing amp;
T1:
1: Human Versatility;
2: Improved Recovery (+10% healing amp);
3: Don't count me out (+10PRR below 50% health & incap to -30hp);
T2(5ap):
2: Human Adaptability STAT;
3: Fighting Style (15% Shield AC+3 TS Max Dex);
T3:10ap
2: Improved Recovery (+10% healing amp);
2: Fighting Style (+2-6% Glancing Blow Proc);
T4:15ap
2: Improved Recovery (+10% healing amp);

Monk Shintao: 6 action points gets you 10% healing amp;
T1:
1: Bastion of Purity (+5% healing Amp+10 Positive Spell Power;
2: Exemplar (would get +3 Intimidate,Heal, +10% Threat for 3 pts);
2: ??? nothing good and all cost 2 because I don't have dodge... ideas ???
T2:5ap:
1: Protection from Tainted Creatures (+5% Healing Amp, +10 Positive Spell Power, +1ac/resist vs Tainted);

Knight of the Chalice: 22 action points gets you 20% healing amp;
Tier 1:
1: Slayer of evil (Evil Outsiders +1/1-6,+2sav)
2: Extra Smites x2
2: Extra Turning x3
Tier 2: 5ap:
1: Extra Smites x2
2: Divine Might
6: Action Boost Damage +30% Damage;
1: Courage of Heaven (1d6Evil,+2svs Fear, Enchantment);
Tier 3: 10ap:
3: Divine Sacrifice (9d6);
2: Vigor of Life (+10% Healing amp & Neg energy absorption);
Tier 4: 20ap:
2: Vigor of Life (+10% Healing amp & Neg energy absorption);
Note: Plan to save smites for Intolerant Blows for the 1000% hate so no need for Exalted Smites (& don't have the build points anyway);


Sacred Defender;
T1:
1: Holy Bastion (+1 Pos Spell Power+2%Fort);
3: Improved Sacred Defense (Saves->PRR>Threat);
3: Lay on Hands;
0: Sacred Armor Mastery; ran out of points...
2: Saves Boost (no fail on 1, +2);
T2: (5ap):
3: Improved Sacred Defense (Saves->PRR->Threat);
1: Divine Righteousness (2%fort+Cha as temp HP & 100% Threat);
0: Sacred Shield Mastery ran out of points...
T3: 10ap:
1: Sacred Defense Stance (+10prr+50%Threat,-10%movement);
3: T3-Improved Sacred Defense (Saves->PRR->Threat);
3: Greater Sacred Defense (+20%HP->+6con->+6str);
T4: 20ap:
1: Redemption (True Resurrection...);
3: Greater Sacred Defense (+20%HP->+6con->+6str);
6: Reinforced Defense
T5: 30ap:
3: Greater Sacred Defense (+20%HP->+6con->+6str);
2: Reinforced Defense; Not enough build points to fully max...

Epic Destiny: Unyielding Sentinel (24ap);
0:T5-Passive Bonuses: You gain Cleric, Favored Soul, and Paladin caster levels equal to your Unyielding Sentinel level if you have any levels in those classes. +50 hp. You gain +1 intimidate for each level of Unyielding Sentinel, including level 0; +5 sacred bonus to natural armor. Gain the Diehard feat. +2 Attack; +50 hp; +10 physical resistance; +2 attack, +1 bonus to reflex/fort/will saves;
0:T5-Stand Against the Tide:?*Sentinel Stance: (Cooldown 20 seconds): Can't be knocked down in Stand Against the Tide Stance.; +1 melee damage, 20% threat generation, 5% fort, +1 reflex/fort/will saves. These bonuses increases while standing still, up to 4 times;
1:T1-Endless Turning (r3);
4:T1-Brace for Impact (r2);
3:T1-Shield Prowess;
2:T1-Confront any Foe;
3:T2-Legendary Shield Mastery;
3:T2-Endless Smiting;
2:T3-Intolerant Blows;
3:T3-Endless Lay on Hands;
3:T4-Ward against Evil;
Twist1: T3: Lay Waste;
Twist2: T2: Momentum Swing
Twist3: T1: Healing Power until can get Rejuvenating Cocoon;

[Sokól]

15 paladin 3 fighter 2 monk human D-axe wielder, planning 1 myself it is really a flavor because everyone builds for ranged now but I think this could work the 3 fighter kensai tree is looking very promising, iirc you can get the d-axe prof. as a part of the kensai enhancements.

Being human and the splash nets you 5 feats on a feat starved class.

edit: I think you still need the D-axe feat but not sure...

[tboner]

15 paladin 3 fighter 2 monk human D-axe wielder, planning 1 myself it is really a flavor because everyone builds for ranged now but I think this could work the 3 fighter kensai tree is looking very promising, iirc you can get the d-axe prof. as a part of the kensai enhancements.

Being human and the splash nets you 5 feats on a feat starved class.

edit: I think you still need the D-axe feat but not sure...

That split probably could get you a good ranged build, but 3 fighter doesn't get you much out of the kensai tree - you need 5 fighter levels to take the enhancement that would let you stay centered with kensai weapons (but still would not cover shields as far as I can tell).

I'm thinking of doing a 19 paladin 2 arti for traps, UMD, wand and scroll mastery cheaper than any other class. THF with stalward defender enhancements that don't require a shield, and the rest in Knight of the Challice for some DPS.

The other build I was considering was 14 pali 4 arti 2 monk for more feats for shield stuff, but the loss of defensive stance from shinto monk made me change my mind on that one.

[Sokól]

That split probably could get you a good ranged build, but 3 fighter doesn't get you much out of the kensai tree - you need 5 fighter levels to take the enhancement that would let you stay centered with kensai weapons (but still would not cover shields as far as I can tell).

I'm thinking of doing a 19 paladin 2 arti for traps, UMD, wand and scroll mastery cheaper than any other class. THF with stalward defender enhancements that don't require a shield, and the rest in Knight of the Challice for some DPS.

The other build I was considering was 14 pali 4 arti 2 monk for more feats for shield stuff, but the loss of defensive stance from shinto monk made me change my mind on that one.

Well I was not going ranged because I already have a hybrid toon but S&B and built for doublestrike with the shield mastery´s and cleaves those 3 fighter levels will give meh plenty and was not going for centered it is overrated imo.

Like the post said flavor...

[unbongwah]

15 paladin 3 fighter 2 monk human D-axe wielder
I take it, then, you don't think much of the lvl 18 pally SD core enhancements? Also, why d.axe instead of b.sword? Isn't the latter still better for Smites & Sacrifice?

[Nodoze]

I take it, then, you don't think much of the lvl 18 pally SD core enhancements? Also, why d.axe instead of b.sword? Isn't the latter still better for Smites & Sacrifice?Did you have a build in mind?

My buddy likes to play Pure but I might be able to get him to splash. Realistically 18/2 or something heavy melee is more in alignment with his tastes. If you go Paladin/Fighter can you take the same types of benefits from Sacred Defender and Stalwart Defender or do they lock each other out ?

[Sokól]

I take it, then, you don't think much of the lvl 18 pally SD core enhancements? Also, why d.axe instead of b.sword? Isn't the latter still better for Smites & Sacrifice?

At fist look they do not look very appealing. Flavor but might end up wielding a B-sword nothing set in stone here :)

[unbongwah]

My buddy likes to play Pure but I might be able to get him to splash. Realistically 18/2 or something heavy melee is more in alignment with his tastes. If you go Paladin/Fighter can you take the same types of benefits from Sacred Defender and Stalwart Defender or do they lock each other out ?
Pure pally tanks have always struggled with not having enough feats; and I'm underwhelmed by the Sacred Defender (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sacred_Defender_Enhancements_%28Lamannia%29) capstone. I'm still mulling over whether Glorious Stand is worth grabbing; if not, then pal 15 or so might be a good stopping point to grab Zeal + CSW + extra Smite. I'm also not clear as to which Sacred & Stalwart Defender abilities stack. I'm pretty willing to bet you can only have one defensive stance active at a time; but being able to add, say, Threatening Countenance + Overbalance + a couple more feats to a S&B pally might be worth the ftr splash.

[Nodoze]

Question then.....knowing what we know now and assuming you are mostly Paladin (say 14 or 15 levels of Paladin), what is the best path to DPS. Right now I'm assuming something along the lines of 15Pal/3Ranger/2Monk (pyrene) or 15Pal/3Ranger/2Fighter (heavy armor, prr, ac).

I've only tested briefly, so do not have any hard data on anything. Although from what I've seen my LR+20 on my Paladin might turn him into one of those centered Monk/Fighter builds.Note: This first quote (above) is from the Post-Expansion Paladin Enhancements Thread but is related so I copied it here.
Pure pally tanks have always struggled with not having enough feats; and I'm underwhelmed by the Sacred Defender (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sacred_Defender_Enhancements_%28Lamannia%29) capstone. I'm still mulling over whether Glorious Stand is worth grabbing; if not, then pal 15 or so might be a good stopping point to grab Zeal + CSW + extra Smite. I'm also not clear as to which Sacred & Stalwart Defender abilities stack. I'm pretty willing to bet you can only have one defensive stance active at a time; but being able to add, say, Threatening Countenance + Overbalance + a couple more feats to a S&B pally might be worth the ftr splash.EDIT: Pretty sure you are correct regarding only one heroic Defensive stance at a time. I don't see why the Enhancements you listed wouldn't be available and maybe some of the Defensive but non-stance specific Stalwart Defender (StD) Enhancements stack with the Sacred Defender (SaD) Enhancements.

I am getting concerned as we may play the evening of the launch as a group and we don't have a build for my buddy. Bottom line is that he likes Paladins and heavy armor and won't be OK with running around in pajamas...

I would be interested in any builds people have that are still Tankish by wearing Armor but increase the Paladin DPS by splashing. It won't be as good as before when you could be in DoS stance without a shield using a THF weapon when not Tanking but maybe we can find some balance somewhere. Any post expansion builds up yet (with Enhancements listed) that are fully capable Tank Sacred Defender Paladin but can put down a shield and do semi-decent THF DPS (or even better Shield with D-Axe/B-Sword getting both Double-Strike & Glancing Blows for decent DPS with S&B)?

Unless there are other ideas I am thinking that your idea is best for my buddies desires with something like Paladin-15/Fighter-5 for the extra Feats/Tower Shield and getting what we can from Fighter Enhancements... Likely most of the good things in the Fighter's Stalwart Defender won't stack with the Paladin's Sacred Defender.

I have never played Kensi. Can a mostly Paladin in full Plate with Shield benefit from Kensi enhancements to up his DPS or do they need to be wearing pajamas for Kensi?

[unbongwah]

First off, if your buddy starts his pally now, he should get his free LR +20 when Shadowfell & the enh pass go live next week, so he can fix any issues down the road (knock on wood). Second, I'm expecting the must-have feats on a S&B tank to remain: Power Atk, IC:Slash, Shield Mastery, & ISM. That should leave somewhere between 6 to 11 feats free, depending on how heavily he splashes other classes and what race he picks. And third, any mostly-pally build should go for at least pal 14 for Zeal, IMHO; that gives your friend some time to consider what else to add.

While a pure pally is not ideal for tanking, IMHO, it's still a viable option; it mostly entails making some tough choices when it comes to feats (both what to take & when). Pure human pallies will get 11 feats (7 heroic + 3 epic + 1 human): that's enough for the 4 feats I mentioned, plus b.sword, CL/GC, THF x3, and either Toughness or Overwhelming Crit. [Dwarf pally would drop b.sword for d.axe instead, natch.]

BTW, Kensei has nothing to do with being a "pajama" build, unless you're making a monk / Kensei which needs to stay centered. It sounds like there are some (frankly overpowered) synergies between Kensei & monk in the overhaul - so much so I'm wondering how soon before they get hit with the nerf bat. :rolleyes:

[maddmatt70]

3 monk is nice for the 10% amp + the pally can tank can invest a fair amount into the Knight of the chalice pick up 30% amp and then go human/helf and get 2nd tier amp. Healing amp is where to go for pallys that tank. Go for the massive amp.

[Nodoze]

First off, if your buddy starts his pally now, he should get his free LR +20 ... next week, so he can fix any issues down the road (knock on wood). ... go for at least pal 14 for Zeal, IMHO; that gives your friend some time to consider what else to add. ... BTW, Kensei has nothing to do with being a "pajama" build, unless you're making a monk / Kensei which needs to stay centered .... nerf bat.
3 monk is nice for the 10% amp + the pally can tank can invest a fair amount into the Knight of the chalice pick up 30% amp and then go human/helf and get 2nd tier amp. Healing amp is where to go for pallys that tank. Go for the massive amp.Our party is pretty much all level 24 with at least 1 ED capped. While some of us have been at max XP for awhile we haven't leveled to 25 because there wasn't much benefit and we have a few stragglers who were 20-22 who miss sessions often and we didn't want to incure any needless XP penalties. The Paladin in our group is pretty single minded and likes to just charge into everything & get the aggro (rest of the team is DPS except me though I do what light damage I can as the healer). I have most of my EDs unlocked and multiple capped but our Paladin doesn't like complexity and has stayed US even though he has had it capped for a long time. He won't go off destiny & he just wants to play & charge in with no switching and such.

Matt, Good point on the massive Healing Amp. Currently he has all the human amp but not any on Paladin since he is DoS and not HotD. I guess even if I take fighter for the Tower shield and extra feats & what not I can spend all or most of the enhancements on Paladin. Thematically I can see him going for a fighter splash but I am not sure he will get his mind around his Paladin being part monk...

[maddmatt70]

Matt, Good point on the massive Healing Amp. Currently he has all the human amp but not any on Paladin since he is DoS and not HotD. I guess even if I take fighter for the Tower shield and extra feats & what not I can spend all or most of the enhancements on Paladin. Thematically I can see him going for a fighter splash but I am not sure he will get his mind around his Paladin being part monk...

Yeah its really what paladin tanks got this update is access to the old hunter of dead positive energy enhancements. Here is how I would roll it looking at the enhancement pass.
Human
15 paladin 3 monk 2 fighter
Action Points Spent:
Human Racial: 17 action points gets you 30% healing amp.
Monk Shintao: 6 action points gets you 10% healing amp.
Knight of the Chalice: 22 action points gets you 20% healing amp.
Paladin Sacred Defender: All the rest of the action points basically.

Level 15 paladin gets you 2 4th levels spells so you could have cure serious wounds and zeal. Pick up the feat empower healing and twist in cocoon if you get a chance someday and wear a devotion item of course. This way you could heal yourself and you would be super easy to heal. If you choose to wear full plate and tower o.k. that is fine, but man look at that amp and the feats you pick up regardless of evasion or not.

[Nodoze]

Yeah its really what paladin tanks got this update is access to the old hunter of dead positive energy enhancements. Here is how I would roll it looking at the enhancement pass.
Human
15 paladin 3 monk 2 fighter
Action Points Spent:
Human Racial: 17 action points gets you 30% healing amp.
Monk Shintao: 6 action points gets you 10% healing amp.
Knight of the Chalice: 22 action points gets you 20% healing amp.
Paladin Sacred Defender: All the rest of the action points basically.

Level 15 paladin gets you 2 4th levels spells so you could have cure serious wounds and zeal. Pick up the feat empower healing and twist in cocoon if you get a chance someday and wear a devotion item of course. This way you could heal yourself and you would be super easy to heal. If you choose to wear full plate and tower o.k. that is fine, but man look at that amp and the feats you pick up regardless of evasion or not.Thanks very much. I hadn't thought of that and will look really hard at that combo and maybe I can sell him on it (or just do it for him). As the two humans in our party we are pretty much as fully amped out as we can currently be on live (enhancements & 30/20/10 gear) and as the healer I totally notice it. Would really like to see how that kind of amp plays out.

On a related note I am thinking of leveling up a new PDK healer to replace my cleric in the party (in part to try something new) and so that I can TR my Party Cleric. That or maybe leave my cleric in the party & use the new character to join in with guild mates on more challenging content. Can you take a look at my build and let me know what you think on that thread ?:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422290-Post-Expansion-Build-The-Lead-Cleric-%28up-front-melee-Healer%29

[Nodoze]

Thanks again for the help thus far. Since I received a bunch of good input but not an actual build I went ahead and threw together one that I currently plan to use when the Expansion Pack drops... Basically I wanted to document everything so we could just do a Lessor Reincarnate quickly and then enjoy playing again...

Please scroll back up to the Original Post (OP) at the top of the thread to see the current thoughts on the build and give whatever improvements or constructive feedback you can. I will try to make time to adjust the build based on feedback.

[Krelar]

Unless they decide to fix a bug on lammania before Monday I don't think tanking Paladin's are going to be played much. If you have the +6 Con and +20% HP enhancements, even if you keep a shield equipped, every time you swap weapons your max hit points drop temporarily. So if you have around 1000 HP in stance and 830 out of stance. Swapping weapons will drop you down to 830. Needing a heal after every weapon swap sound like fun? :rolleyes:

[Nodoze]

Unless they decide to fix a bug on lammania before Monday I don't think tanking Paladin's are going to be played much. If you have the +6 Con and +20% HP enhancements, even if you keep a shield equipped, every time you swap weapons your max hit points drop temporarily. So if you have around 1000 HP in stance and 830 out of stance. Swapping weapons will drop you down to 830. Needing a heal after every weapon swap sound like fun? :rolleyes:Ouch that does bite! We will be playing regardless as my buddy only has his Paladin... Thankfully he doesn't switch weapons that much and as a Cleric my Aura heals him mana free (I have it running most of the time anyway).

Still looking for feedback & especially improvements on the build posted in the Original Post at the top.

[Ralmeth]

Ouch that does bite! We will be playing regardless as my buddy only has his Paladin... Thankfully he doesn't switch weapons that much and as a Cleric my Aura heals him mana free (I have it running most of the time anyway).

Still looking for feedback & especially improvements on the build posted in the Original Post at the top.

My recommendation is to have your friend save their LR until they know / plan their build out further. Instead, just have them reset their enhancements to try things out (I assume this will still be an option). This is what I'm going to do at first, until I have time to review all of the multiclass options.

As for feedback on your build, IMHO going with a starting stat of 17 in any stat on a Paladin is a mistake as you will want to spread your stats around. I would drop strength and con to 16 each, freeing up 6 build points. Use 1 extra level up into con instead of strength if you want epic toughness. Instead bump up intelligence and/or charisma. Aren't they changing the heal skill to add to your devotion (I'm so busy in RL I haven't had time to keep up), that it might be worth putting points into? Your friend will also want skill points for UMD.

[unbongwah]

A +3 Supreme tome seems like overkill for a first-lifer, but it does open up some interesting options w/feats. E.g.:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 25 Lawful Good Human Female
(2 Fighter \ 15 Paladin \ 3 Monk \ 5 Epic)
Hit Points: 391
Spell Points: 260
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 24
Reflex: 14
Will: 13

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 25)
Strength 16 25
Dexterity 10 13
Constitution 16 19
Intelligence 10 13
Wisdom 8 11
Charisma 15 18

Tomes Used
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 21 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Paladin)


Level 23 (Paladin)


Level 24 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 25 (Paladin)


DEX 10 + 3 tome lets you add Dodge; INT 10 + 3 tome lets you add CE (combine w/Imp CE from LD for extra PRR).

[Carpone]

What's the tipping point for AC to be meaningful in EE Shadowfell content? By meaningful, I mean avoidance of at least 44% of melee attacks. Non-tank builds are hitting that benchmark via 25% Incorporeality (Shadow Veil) and 25% Dodge, and they can get ~25% damage reduction without too much effort.

I haven't seen anyone talk about Bladeforged Paladin tanks yet. While limited to 32point builds and gear as a first lifer, Bladeforged also get some fantastic benefits:

Reconstruct (25 SP, 6 sec cooldown)
-10% slashing damage reduction
0.5[W] from Weapon Attachment
Improved Power Attack
Warforged traits (immunity to Hold Person, Energy Drain)

Enhancements look like this:

Bladeforged (27)
1 Improved Fortification (50%)
2 Warforged Constitution
1 Improved Fortification (75%)
2 Warforged Constitution
6 Mechanist III (20% Repair amp)
6 Communion of Scribing III (25 SP Reconstruct, 6 sec cooldown)
6 Improved Power Attack III
1 Power of the Forge (20% Action Boost melee dmg, +30 Action Boost universal spell power, +4 Action Boost to all Saving Throws, +10 Action Boost to AC/PRR for 20 seconds; 30 sec cooldown; 5 charges)
1 Weapon Attachment (+0.5[W])
1 Communion of Handling (+2 Seeker and bypass Adamantine)

KotC (11)
5 filler
6 Divine Might III

Sacred Defender (42)
All the tanking goodies, including the capstone if you're 20 Paladin.

Power of the Forge stacks with Paladin Damage Boost for +50% additional damage total.

Bladeforged Transformation (6 Paladin) says you can't cast spells and you are immune to healing. However, when I tested it you could cast all Paladin spells and your Reconstruct SLA. While you are immune to positive healing, you can Repair and Reconstruct yourself.

[Nodoze]

... I haven't seen anyone talk about Bladeforged Paladin tanks yet. While limited to 32point builds and gear as a first lifer, Bladeforged also get some fantastic benefits:
...
Bladeforged Transformation (6 Paladin) says you can't cast spells and you are immune to healing. However, when I tested it you could cast all Paladin spells and your Reconstruct SLA. While you are immune to positive healing, you can Repair and Reconstruct yourself.Thanks for the input & BF does seem to have quite a bit going for it. Some people don't like the way WF look but I personally don't mind WF and that could be a great tank for an all WF party (where all the arcanes & Artificers can also be a "healer" or at least self-healer).

That being said Bladeforged is not an option for my buddy whose main/only character is a human paladin who alreay at level 25. I assume we will know when the expansion updates allow us to log in but I couldn't find Bladeforged Transformation in the PDF of enhancements.

[Nodoze]

My recommendation is to have your friend save their LR until they know / plan their build out further. Instead, just have them reset their enhancements to try things out (I assume this will still be an option). This is what I'm going to do at first, until I have time to review all of the multiclass options.

As for feedback on your build, IMHO going with a starting stat of 17 in any stat on a Paladin is a mistake as you will want to spread your stats around. I would drop strength and con to 16 each, freeing up 6 build points. Use 1 extra level up into con instead of strength if you want epic toughness. Instead bump up intelligence and/or charisma. Aren't they changing the heal skill to add to your devotion (I'm so busy in RL I haven't had time to keep up), that it might be worth putting points into? Your friend will also want skill points for UMD.Appreciate the feedback & I agree that the build at the top may be a little too min/maxed. For at least this week's session I may just leave our party's levels as they are and just redo the enhancements. I can then play around on live more and see how the new skills work. Maybe I can create a PDK &/ MorningLord at level 15 to see how various combos of skills affect spell power and such with little risk to my regular characters or the others in my party.

[Nodoze]

A +3 Supreme tome seems like overkill for a first-lifer, but it does open up some interesting options w/feats. E.g.:
...
DEX 10 + 3 tome lets you add Dodge; INT 10 + 3 tome lets you add CE (combine w/Imp CE from LD for extra PRR).Good points. As far as the Tomes go this Paladin is my buddy's only character (and he only plays Paladins) so it is a one time investment and as far as I know it should still be there if we ever decide to TR the entire party. Taking Ralmeth's recommendation to balance the stats does allow one to leverage the tomes better. IIRC Toughness feat isn't as valuable since they took out the Toughness enhancements from the classes/races. I also remember that the Dodge feat was a prereq for the Shintao Monk enhancement Reed In The Wind which may be better than some of the other options. May not work in Full Plate for my buddy but some may go for Evasion instead and that could be interesting.

Added rep to you all for contributing.

[unbongwah]

My BF tank is currently pal 14 / wiz 1 / ftr 1; the wiz splash got me a metamagic (Quicken) and Repair I enh (+40 Repair Spellpower - unfortunately going away in the new system). I had originally planned to go pal 18, but with all the changes to the enhs, I might go pal 15 / wiz 1 / ftr 4 for the 2 extra feats and maybe a couple of goodies from the ftr PrEs. Currently my feats are: Addy Body, Power Atk, Cleave&GC, IC:Slash, Shield Mastery & ISM, Quicken. If I go ftr 4, I'll have 6 more feats (1 heroic + 2 ftr + 3 epic); that's enough for THF x3, OC, b.sword, and Toughness (or something else - maybe Extend?).

Mostly fight with falchions (managed to buy a Falchion of the Crusader off the AH cheap); switch to scimitar+shield when I'm tanking. With just the BF starter gear, a couple of Cannith items, and a few lootgen items, I do fine solo most of the time; and the Reconstruct SLA will be a big boost to my self-repairability. But I've yet to do anything "serious" with this build, like flag for Shroud or anything. [TBH, I don't raid much, so that usually isn't worth my while.] Still, not doing too bad for a build I threw together in like 15 mins to farm Cove w/a friend. :)

EDIT: were I going to redo this build now, it'd probably be pal 15 / ftr 2 / monk 3 - same number of feats, but with Evasion (+Mithril Body). The ftr splash unlocks Repair skill, so I'd use that to make up for losing Repair I enh from wiz.

[C-Shell]

What's the tipping point for AC to be meaningful in EE Shadowfell content? By meaningful, I mean avoidance of at least 44% of melee attacks. Non-tank builds are hitting that benchmark via 25% Incorporeality (Shadow Veil) and 25% Dodge, and they can get ~25% damage reduction without too much effort.



same question. i want to get 20 heal amp and 2d6 vs all evil from hotd but this means, i have to make sacrifices on the defender tree. so the question is: do i sacrifice prr, ac or hp?

my main was a twf 15pal 3 monk, 2 fighter already. for some reason i wanted to play a tank again but i have no clue about the current metagame and what is most important.

i would suggest to swap quicken spell for extended spell as the pally buffs are annoyingly short on lvl15 without extend.

also what is a good intimi score and intimi item? i really dont wanna go back from dragon helm to pdk helm. pdk helm was cool when i wa a tank a year ago -.-.


awesome build here btw! had about 65 reflex yesterday and over 70 fort.

[Nodoze]

same question. i want to get 20 heal amp and 2d6 vs all evil from hotd but this means, i have to make sacrifices on the defender tree. so the question is: do i sacrifice prr, ac or hp?

my main was a twf 15pal 3 monk, 2 fighter already. for some reason i wanted to play a tank again but i have no clue about the current metagame and what is most important.

i would suggest to swap quicken spell for extended spell as the pally buffs are annoyingly short on lvl15 without extend.

also what is a good intimi score and intimi item? i really dont wanna go back from dragon helm to pdk helm. pdk helm was cool when i wa a tank a year ago -.-.


awesome build here btw! had about 65 reflex yesterday and over 70 fort.Glad you like the Build!

Adding the Extend Feat is certainly a good option for Quality of Life but personally I would not want to lose "un-interruptible healing" via CSW & Rejuv-Cocoon by dropping Quicken... After losing Racial & Class Toughness Enhancements in the Enhancements revamp the Toughness Feat is much less valuable than before so dropping both Toughness & Epic Toughness would let you pick up Extend and something else (many decent options) & would be my choice over dropping Quicken to get Extend...

From KoTC, the build already has 20% Heal amp & 1d6 Evil but to pick up the extra 1d6 Evil you have to spend 2 more AP in KoTC (assuming you don't want to lose or lessen Divine Sacrifice) to get the 1d6 Evil (& the prereq 1d6 +1attack&svs vs Outsiders/Undead);

To keep all the Heal Amp in the build the only option is to take 2AP from SD & while you can swap Tier1 & Tier3 abilities around you can't spend less than 20ap to get to tier 4 so you have to decide what to cut from SD Tier4 & Tier5 abilities:

T4: 20ap:
1: Redemption (True Resurrection...);
3: Greater Sacred Defense (+20%HP->+6con->+6str);
6: Reinforced Defense
T5: 30ap:
3: Greater Sacred Defense (+20%HP->+6con->+6str);
2: Reinforced Defense; Not enough build points to fully max...

With the above assumptions to pick up that extra 1d6 (&prereq) your full choices are to steal 2 AP from the following:
-1AP: Resurrection & Raise Dead (assuming you have CSW & Zeal as 4th level spells) so maybe use cakes, clicky, &/or scrolls or let someone else do it?;
-1AP: Lose 2 Strength in stance (can be reduced 2-3 times);
-1AP: Lose 2 Constitution in stance (can be reduced 2-3 times);
-1AP: Lose 5% HP in stance (can be reduced 2-3 times though the 3rd is 10%);
-2AP: Lose last Reinforced Defense (15% Armor or Shield AC);

The build is already short of max AC by 35% of a Shield (or Armor) & personally I didn't think the extra 1d6 Evil (& prereq) were worth giving up without knowing what is OK to give up at the highest difficulties...

EDIT: The build is also short of a max Paladin Aura and a few other small things in the Sacred Defender tree.

I thought about it much before posting and felt this was the best balance of offense & defense and the closest to max defense while picking up as much as possible on Heal Amp & Offense...

Regarding the Intimidate there may be better specific items but at level 28 I believe you can slot +15 skills now on any slot (colorless) and least equal the Purple Dragon Helm.

Please report back what you find at cap and any recommended adjustments !

[C-Shell]

thanks. will try out the ac line at some point and see how it changes. but feeling survivable enough. survived the arena in ee belly of beast with self heals only and tanking :)

yes people complain often about the pallys dps. but when you are in the situation where you simple do not need to care if ee velah snouts and can keep on beating without taking any damage, that is also a good dps contribution.

[MoonRunner]

If you are going B-Sword you will want First Blood from (I think I got mine in) Thrill of the Hunt which will give 13-15% doublestrike and Keen II. This will most likely be his main weapon especially if he is the type that doesn't like to swap a lot, which means improved crit is not needed. I would use for Dodge if he is doing the evasion thing but if not dodge wont bypass his armors dex bonus anyway and he is most likely going to have enough from an item to max it so he might want something else.

I also agree that 16 is enough in any one stat. I think I went 16/14/16/10/10/10 I like the extra reflex save I get from the dex but I need to take a second look now that +8 and 9 is so common I may be everloaded on dex. I took 10 int so my +3 tome would allow combat mastery and I have to have an item to cast my spells but I guess now +8 is common and could probably dump wis all the way for 2 more cha.

IDK I am still debating changing from pure pally to something similar to what you have posted here. My build is very close to what you have here but pure pally. I have B-sword, the shield masteries and cleaves, combat mastery and I think all the thf line with overwhelming crit and I just traded imp crit for tower shield because I got my First Blood. Pure pally just doesn't pay off anymore with no weapons of good while maxing Defender. Anyway just some thoughts.

[Nodoze]

If you are going B-Sword you will want First Blood from (I think I got mine in) Thrill of the Hunt which will give 13-15% doublestrike and Keen II. This will most likely be his main weapon especially if he is the type that doesn't like to swap a lot, which means improved crit is not needed. I would use for Dodge if he is doing the evasion thing but if not dodge wont bypass his armors dex bonus anyway and he is most likely going to have enough from an item to max it so he might want something else.

I also agree that 16 is enough in any one stat. I think I went 16/14/16/10/10/10 I like the extra reflex save I get from the dex but I need to take a second look now that +8 and 9 is so common I may be everloaded on dex. I took 10 int so my +3 tome would allow combat mastery and I have to have an item to cast my spells but I guess now +8 is common and could probably dump wis all the way for 2 more cha.

IDK I am still debating changing from pure pally to something similar to what you have posted here. My build is very close to what you have here but pure pally. I have B-sword, the shield masteries and cleaves, combat mastery and I think all the thf line with overwhelming crit and I just traded imp crit for tower shield because I got my First Blood. Pure pally just doesn't pay off anymore with no weapons of good while maxing Defender. Anyway just some thoughts.Thanks for sharing and please post back what you decide. I agree that the original build posted above is a little too min-maxed and it may make sense to balance out the stats better though would want to figure out the max dex bonus at end game before investing more there.

My buddy will stay heavy armor & tower shield tanking as that is the way he sees his character and I don't think he would be ok with pajamas even if it is better in game. Since we already have a AC/PRR tank Paladin on my Paladin I am focusing on DPS & Paladin is becoming a splash. I was originally looking at the Avenging Angel 8-fighter/6-Paladin/6-Monk with FotW Adrenaline Smites but then started thinking 12-fighter/4-Paladin/4-Monk/FotW for the Psionic boost to smites but now starting to think about going 12-fighter/2-Paladin/6-Monk/Legendary-Dreadnought (http://ddowiki.com/page/Legendary_Dreadnought) to keep the 25% incorp. Hate to lose the adrenalized smites but I have already played multiple FotW builds and would like to try Legendary Dread and see how I like less "spikey" damage and the more boosts & extra multipliers from Legendary Dread... Regardless, either route will give me a feel for pajamas verses heavy armor on a melee which is foreign to both of us as Heavy Armor Paladins from PnP days and though I am willing to try it as long as there is at least some Paladin in there I know my buddy won't go there.

If you stay pure Paladin and have invested in UMD I believe you can still put a Master's Touch scroll in your main hand and Tower Shield in your off hand and grant yourself proficiency in Tower Shield. That helps Paladins who without splashes are feat starved. Two of my buddies are not good with buffing and stuff like that after each rest as they just want to run and go kill so they would likely be better off having the feat but I like to try to max things and don't mind.

[MoonRunner]

Here is what I have come up with


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Thrasiuus+20 LR
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(5 Fighter \ 15 Paladin)
Hit Points: 300
Spell Points: 185
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 24
Reflex: 14
Will: 13

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 20
Dexterity 10 13
Constitution 15 18
Intelligence 10 13
Wisdom 8 11
Charisma 16 23

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 0 7
Bluff 3 6
Concentration 2 4
Diplomacy 3 6
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 6
Heal 3 23
Hide 0 1
Intimidate 7 29
Jump 3 5
Listen -1 0
Move Silently 0 1
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 0 1
Spot -1 0
Swim 3 5
Tumble n/a 2
Use Magic Device 5 17

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Human Bonus) Shield Mastery


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 10 (Fighter)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)





I am still playing with ED's so I wont make suggestions there. I prefer Empower heal to quicken on this build because anytime you are truly tanking you should have a dedicated healer assigned to you so your LOH should be all you need. Any other time Empower seems more effective for my play style as I can do a little mini kite throw a few cure mods to top off then get back in the fight. When I went the quicken route I could stay put and toss those cure mods and while yes they always hit they didn't heal for enough to take a swing between cure mods. Bottom line is a Pallys LOH are used for in combat situation while their cure mod is used to top them off between fights so Quicken is obsolete on a pally unless it works on cocoon then I could see a small argument for it. I also took Extend and one of these two metas are what might be swapped for combat expertise. I currently have it and don't use it much but at the same time I don't take a tanking roll often as I am mostly working on earning fate points atm.

That is the build I would recommend for your friend and if you really want to wear lingerie I would suggest you use 2 of those fighter levels and take rogue then drop Cha to 14 so you can make dex 14. If you are not going to stay centered then you gain nothing from monk that you don't get with rogue. You need to take 3 levels of fighter for your kensia enhancements.

I did some testing on an iconic and for verification you can build both stances but would have to toggle between them. Anyway I have lots more to experiment with but this is basically were I am at this point. I think that build is the one I will do but am waiting just a little longer before I do.

[unbongwah]

Why ftr 5? Is that so you can add Block & Cut?

[MoonRunner]

Oh yes I left that point out. This build definitely favors a splash of a third something Assuming that you will take 3 fighter/ 15 pally. I guess the best 2 class version would be 4fighter 16 pally for the extra fighter feat and one more pally spell. If you are splashing a third class for evasion then 15/3 will get what you need for feats and enhancements. Sorry I thought that out early in my planning but in the end I just added 2 more fighter levels to top the build off.

On another note I just made an Iconic Shadar-Kai lvl 2 rogue18 cleric planning a future raid healer since I have been TRing my main healer. Anyway I discovered now that we have a need for heal and spellcraft skills multi classing a rogue becomes more difficult. Of coarse a pally only needs the heal as they have no spells that benefit from spellcraft. That changes the argument of multi classing to a rogue vs a monk but that may be more of a question for multi class trappers post U19.

[boredman]

Im thinking on using a LR (not the 20+ one) to change my old pre update unarmed paladin 15/monk 4/fighter 1, into a Paladin 15/monk 3/fighter 2:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Punisher 3 sep 2013
Level 28 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 15 Paladin \ 3 Monk \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 466
Spell Points: 452
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 24
Reflex: 17
Will: 19

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(36 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28) (Level 28)
Strength 16 23 23
Dexterity 13 17 17
Constitution 13 16 16
Intelligence 10 13 13
Wisdom 15 19 20
Charisma 14 18 20

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 1
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Charisma used at level 17

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 6 22
Bluff 2 13
Concentration 6 34
Diplomacy 2 13
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 13
Heal 5 34
Hide 2 11
Intimidate 4 36
Jump 7 26
Listen 3 13
Move Silently 2 11
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 9
Search 0 9
Spellcraft 0 9
Spot 3 13
Swim n/a n/a
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 2 13

Level 1 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Improved Sunder


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: DEX
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Fighter)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 14 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+2)


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+2)
Skill: Heal (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Heal (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)


Level 21 (Paladin)
Skill: Bluff (+2)
Skill: Haggle (+2)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2.60779e+007)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Paladin)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2.60786e+007)


Level 23 (Paladin)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+2.60788e+007)


Level 24 (Paladin)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 25 (Paladin)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+1)


Level 26 (Paladin)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1.5)


Level 27 (Paladin)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Haggle (+0.5)
Skill: Hide (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Damage Reduction


Level 28 (Paladin)
Skill: Bluff (+0.5)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Human Adaptability: Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Protection from Tainted Creatures (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Fists of Iron (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Fiendslayer I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Courage of Heaven (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Fiendslayer II (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Improved Courage of Heaven (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Damage Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Damage Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Sacrifice (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Censure Demons (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Sealed Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Holy Bastion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Divine Righteousness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Sacred Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Bulwark Aura (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resistance Aura (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Inciting Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Martial Arts (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Weapon Specialization: Martial Arts (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Tactics (Rank 3)




The idea is to have a more dps paladin that use mountain stance for more PRR, some hitpoints and possibly the grand mountain stance for +1 crit on 19-20 rolls, for some reason the planner didn't allow to take adept, master and grandmaster of forms features but i believe that can be taken (i took a second toughness, quicken and emp healing instead).

Human for: Is the race i currently have but gives more heal amp, extra feature, damage boost, ability scores and maybe skills but tight on ap.

15 paladin for: Csw and Cmw, zeal, cha bonus to saves and strength, heal amp enhancements and energy drain inmmunity, some usage of sacred defender stance for more PRR and saves (using handwraps), some bonus against evils or undeads, some lay of hands, some sp for cocoon, damage boost, etc.

3 Monk for: stunning fist (64 dc is easily achivable on Gmof destiny, can raise to 70+ dc with better gear and past lives plus imp sunder to help), handwraps (antipode, gravewrappings, undead beaters, adamantine knuckles, etc), more heal amp from shintao tree plus more PRR in mountain stance and 10% offhand chance (i believe?), fist of iron, maybe even some sneak damage from ninja spy but tight on ap.

2 Fighter for: haste boost 30, +3 to tactics, and extra features.

my toon is 36 pt but can drop a little bit cha or wis on 32 or 34 pt toons
Prereqs on base stats: 23 base Str for overwhelming critical, 17 Dex for greater and perfect twf, then can spent on Cha for bonus to saves and strength with dm, and wisdom for SF dc, then at least 14 con for hitpoints (not sure if need 16 base for master stone stance)

Gear can use until lvl 25 (pre u19)

weapon : antipode
goggles: dream visor or deadly of accur with slot for dex
ring: avithoul or tod ring with holyburst or heal amp 20, ring of shadows, stormreaver,etc
outfit: spider spun caparison insight wis, or white/black dragon with prr slotted
helm: dragon or epic mask of comedy
Boots: treads of falling or Gs of 45 hp and displacement clickies
gloves: claw set or inmortality (fot ones)
Neclace: jorgundalls collar eh or ee or shintao set or health 8+ random loot
Bracers: claw or convalescence heal amp 30 of parrying +4
cloak: cloak of night lvl 24 or random loot with dodge, cha +8 and slots, etc
trinklet: planar of prowess for +15 prr and artifact bonus with antipode

The toon is capable of using all meele destinies (prefered Gmof for more wisdom and tactics, LD, primal avatar, US and then Fotw), has good doublestrike, saves, PRR, some dodge, tactics with Sf +imp sunder and maybe Gmof ones, self healing with very good heal amp + coccon + csw/cmw, decent damage with unarmed speed + haste boost+ damage boost+ zeal+ df+dm, plus maybe earth stance for +1 crit and overwhelming critical and fist of iron. (the only drawback is the hitpoints that are a little low for tanks (around 700-900 hp depending on destiny and stance, but with good saves, PRR, evasion and self healing can be fine)

Also has decent intimidate and hate generation with divine righteousness and maybe mountain stance and enhancements from sacred defender stance.

Twists: sense of weakness, rejuvenation cocoon, legendary tactics or dance of the flowers or brace of impact

[Old_Skool]

Reading this thread with interest as I have a 13Pal/1Ftr in progress, but with that whole "unequip your shield and lose a bunch of hit points" the original build using THF is obviously no longer optimal. As only a Premium player I don't have access to Monk, so I'm wondering if going 4 levels of Fighter works, or if there's another splash that is better. Without doing any in-depth research, my thought was to go 16Pal/4Ftr (going Ftr5 doesn't get me anything, and 16Pal has an extra 1st level spell). Feats would be (incomplete list) CE, Improved Crit: Slash, Shield Mastery, Imp. Shield Mastery, PA, and Cleave/Great Cleave. Those last two would be to approximate the THF function from the previous build idea of spiking DPS & holding agro without having to switch weapons. Many of the enhancements would still be in line with those discussed above.

Also wondering if Imp. Trip is worth the investment for such a build. Should be noted this is my first Tank build in DDO, so somewhat uncharted territory (though I do have other active epic level toons).

[Meat-Head]

Thought: Go CHA Based fully. Use Divine Might.


Pros: Saves and Intim go up while sacrificing no strength.
Cons: Click a button every 2 mins
Pro of the Con: It's instant now (or close to instant)



??

[Krelar]

Thought: Go CHA Based fully. Use Divine Might.


Pros: Saves and Intim go up while sacrificing no strength.
Cons: Click a button every 2 mins
Pro of the Con: It's instant now (or close to instant)



??

How are you not sacrificing strength? Every 2 points of charisma translates to only 1 point of strength.

[Meat-Head]

How are you not sacrificing strength? Every 2 points of charisma translates to only 1 point of strength.



http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/011/809/ttt.jpg

[Old_Skool]

OK, so the STR loss from converting CHA notwithstanding, does it make good tanky sense to add Cleave/Great Cleave? Seems like there's a lot of flavors out there, just want to see if there's a reason I haven't seen anyone mention this one before.

[unbongwah]

If you're not going pure for capstone or 18 / 2 for Glorious Stand, I think pal 14 / monk 2 / ftr 2 is your best option. Pal 14 gets you core enhs thru lvl 12 and one lvl 4 spell slot (Zeal); monk 2 gets you 2 extra feats, Evasion, +3 to saves, and some T1 monk enhs which work even while uncentered; ftr 2 gets you 2 feats, Haste Boost, and access to other goodies, like Extra Action Boost or Shield Striking. The question is what to do with those last two lvls:

Pal 15: 2nd lvl 4 spell slot, +1 Smite & Remove Disease
Pal 16: +1 lvl 2 spell slot, +15 SPs (big whup)
Ftr 3: access to Overbalance & Spiritual Bond
Ftr 4: 1 extra feat
Monk 3: +5% run speed & monk path (but only if centered); +5% heal amp +10 Pos Spellpower from Shintao core
Monk 4: +0.5[W] and +2% Dodge if centered; otherwise nothing


Seems to me pal 16 and monk 4 add the least to a S&B build, so let's drop those options. So that leaves 15 / 3 / 2, 14 / 3 / 3, and pal 14 / ftr 4 / monk 2 as possibilities.

Here's one possibility:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 28 Lawful Good Human Female
(2 Fighter \ 15 Paladin \ 3 Monk \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 438
Spell Points: 260
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 24
Reflex: 12
Will: 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 16 24
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 16 18
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 14 18

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 20
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 20
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance -1 19
Bluff 2 12
Concentration 3 12
Diplomacy 2 12
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 15
Heal 3 30
Hide -1 7
Intimidate 6 41
Jump 3 18
Listen -1 7
Move Silently -1 7
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 8
Search 0 8
Spellcraft 0 8
Spot -1 7
Swim n/a n/a
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 4 23

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Feat: (Deity) Favored by the Sovereign Host
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Bash
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Human - Human Versatility: Damage Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Human - Improved Recovery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Fiendslayer I (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Turning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Extra Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Might (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Divine Sacrifice (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Vigor of Life (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Knight of the Chalice (Pal) - Exalted Smite (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Holy Bastion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Divine Righteousness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Sacred Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Redemption (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Sacred Armor Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Sacred Armor Mastery (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Sacred Armor Mastery (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Inciting Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Inciting Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Inciting Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Strong Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Strong Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Strong Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Swift Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Tenacious Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Charisma (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Harbored by Light (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Harbored by Light (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Harbored by Light (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Hardy Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Hardy Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Hardy Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Item Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Threatening Countenance (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Threatening Countenance (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Threatening Countenance (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Shield Striking (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Shield Striking (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Stalwart Defender (Ftr) - Shield Striking (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Kensei Focus: Heavy Blades (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Kensei (Ftr) - Haste Boost (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Protection from Tainted Creatures (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Reed in the Wind (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Exemplar (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Exemplar (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Exemplar (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 3)


Level 21 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Paladin)


Level 23 (Paladin)


Level 24 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 25 (Paladin)


Level 26 (Paladin)


Level 27 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Damage Reduction


Level 28 (Paladin)


Pal 15 for Zeal+CSW; monk 3 for +5% heal amp; Shield Striking boosts shield bashing chance to 35% (assuming WAI). Tried to include everything I could to max out my S&B DPS & stance, while still squeezing in +3% Dodge, +25% heal amp, and +6 Intim +25% threat from Stalwart + Shintao.

Skills: 23 ranks of Intim, 11 ranks of UMD, 20 ranks of Heal, 9 ranks of Balance. +2 INT tome would let me max Heal and bump up Balance some more.

It probably looks odd to start this w/28 pts. But I find that forces me to figure out what really matters to my builds in ways that multi-TRs with tomes out the wazoo do not.

Enhs can be tweaked to be more DPS-centric, by shifting APs from upper-tier SD into KotC (more core enhs, more Sacrifice & Exalted Smite, etc.) and Kensei (Extra Action Boost, Weap Spec I); or more heal-amp-centric, by bumping up KotC and racial trees.

[Old_Skool]

I see Cleave/Great Cleave in there so that's answered, but since I don't have access to Monk (only Premium as mentioned above) my question is does it make sense to do more than splash Fighter? Since you referenced the pally capstone I'm guessing it beats out the extra feat I get from going Ftr4? Also, I see you have THF feats in there. But, with all the SaD enhancements that boost HP when wielding a shield, I'd lose well over 100 hp if I ever swapped (at level 14 I'm already losing ~75). Doesn't seem worth it to me - I'd rather ditch the THF feats, stay S&B, and pick up something that'll help in another way.

[unbongwah]

Also wondering if Imp. Trip is worth the investment for such a build. Should be noted this is my first Tank build in DDO, so somewhat uncharted territory (though I do have other active epic level toons).
Missed this earlier. It takes a significant investment in terms of your build & gear to keep your DCs relevant. If you can afford to squeeze in Tactics DCs from Kensei - and Dwarven Tactics if, well, a dwarf - and have high STR & CHA and pick up Vertigo + Exceptional Combat Mastery gear, then I think you can still make Trip work. Note that's a lot of ifs, though. :)

However, many will tell you that it's pointless to build for AC anymore, which means Combat Expertise is unnecessary; and having to spend two feats on a feat-starved build like this just for Imp Trip isn't wise.

[unbongwah]

I see Cleave/Great Cleave in there so that's answered, but since I don't have access to Monk (only Premium as mentioned above) my question is does it make sense to do more than splash Fighter? Since you referenced the pally capstone I'm guessing it beats out the extra feat I get from going Ftr4?
Short answer: it depends. :)

Longer answer: it depends on what you want to incorporate into your build. For the one I posted, I think the benefits of splashing monk+ftr (Evasion, +4 feats, some T1&T2 perks) outweigh the cons. But there's nothing wrong per se with doing pal 18 / ftr 2 instead; the tough call is figuring out which feats to drop. I would probably drop Quik+Emp Heal and rely largely on LoH+Unyielding Sovereignty.

One idea I'm toying with is a cleric splash to add Warpriest. It looks like on a cleric 2 splash I can add Smite Foe, Divine Might (cheaper than pally version and uses SPs instead of TUs), +10 PRR, and Smite Weakness for 10 APs; some more HPs and Inflame is another 6-8 APs, I reckon. Bump it up to cleric 3 and you can add Resilience of Battle, Burden of Sin, and Energy Absorption. The splash also gets you Magical Training free; Twist in Endless Faith to bump Echoes of Power up to 30 SPs. Not sure if there's anything in RadServ worth picking up, but it'd be interesting to find out.

Also, I see you have THF feats in there. But, with all the SaD enhancements that boost HP when wielding a shield, I'd lose well over 100 hp if I ever swapped (at level 14 I'm already losing ~75). Doesn't seem worth it to me - I'd rather ditch the THF feats, stay S&B, and pick up something that'll help in another way.
The THF feats are not just for 2H weapons; if using a d.axe or b.sword w/shield, they also increase their glancing blows (http://ddowiki.com/page/Glancing_blows). In fact, the goal of that build is to get S&B DPS as high as I possibly could, so there's less incentive to switch to 2H weapons, because of how the 20% HP bonus works.

[Ralmeth]

Missed this earlier. It takes a significant investment in terms of your build & gear to keep your DCs relevant. If you can afford to squeeze in Tactics DCs from Kensei - and Dwarven Tactics if, well, a dwarf - and have high STR & CHA and pick up Vertigo + Exceptional Combat Mastery gear, then I think you can still make Trip work. Note that's a lot of ifs, though. :)

However, many will tell you that it's pointless to build for AC anymore, which means Combat Expertise is unnecessary; and having to spend two feats on a feat-starved build like this just for Imp Trip isn't wise.

My experience so far with stunning blow and improved sunder in heroic elites, is that you can get your tactics to work very well on a Paladin! I've been very happy with the results (tested up to level 17s on elite so far), and it's been a huge DPS boost, not to mention fun to have a couple more special attacks:) As improved trip has +4 to your DC over stunning blow, you should be able to get this to work in heroic elites. Epic is another story I have yet to test out.

[unbongwah]

As improved trip has +4 to your DC over stunning blow, you should be able to get this to work in heroic elites. Epic is another story I have yet to test out.
Yeah, epic is always the t(r)ipping point: abilities which work fine while leveling suddenly turn out to be useless in epics. :( I luuurve a good tactics build, but I just don't know what the DC thresholds are these days. So I'm wary of recommending it to a newbie, esp. when I don't know what gear they have access to.

[I actually think the ultimate (non-monk) tactics build will be something like ftr 12 / barb 6 / cleric or FvS 2: Power Surge, barb Rage, Divine Might; go HO for raw STR or dwarf for +3 tactics & better saves. But that has no bearing on a pally tank build. :)]

[Old_Skool]

The THF feats are not just for 2H weapons; if using a d.axe or b.sword w/shield, they also increase their glancing blows.

Thanks - I remembered this well after I posted. I have noticed it quite a bit with my d. axe so that's certainly a keeper.

Tactics was just a side thought, doesn't seem like it's worth it for this build.

I was also looking at Cleric, but didn't get that far yet. Something like Pal15/Clr3/Ftr2 maybe? Like the idea of Warpriest enhancements - good stuff in there.

[Ralmeth]

Yeah, epic is always the t(r)ipping point: abilities which work fine while leveling suddenly turn out to be useless in epics. :( I luuurve a good tactics build, but I just don't know what the DC thresholds are these days. So I'm wary of recommending it to a newbie, esp. when I don't know what gear they have access to.

[I actually think the ultimate (non-monk) tactics build will be something like ftr 12 / barb 6 / cleric or FvS 2: Power Surge, barb Rage, Divine Might; go HO for raw STR or dwarf for +3 tactics & better saves. But that has no bearing on a pally tank build. :)]

Ha! DDO has always been a game where something works at lower levels, but then just doesn't work at higher levels. It's always been this way. Anyways, I've always wanted tactics to work on my Paladin tank, so with the change to Divine Might, access to the Fighter's tactics enhancements, etc. I'm just going to give it a go and see what happens. In the near-term, I'm enjoying the heck out stunning blow! As for long term and getting up into epics (after I get over the 2X TR wall), if they don't work, then the worst thing that will happen is that I'll have to use a LR. If my build still isn't viable, well, I will have 3X Paladin past lives to use on a different build, or I could go back to playing the easy button, my sorc:)

[Old_Skool]

However, many will tell you that it's pointless to build for AC anymore, which means Combat Expertise is unnecessary; and having to spend two feats on a feat-starved build like this just for Imp Trip isn't wise.

I hear this from time to time, and while it fully makes sense for a melee DPS or any other non-tank build to not bother keeping up, how pointless is it really? Per the earlier comments, I'm sure it changes drastically on Epic, but right now at 14th level my pally's AC is north of 70 without action boosts and I can stroll through Heroic Gianthold with nary a scratch. Even Orchard isn't too dangerous - can't drain me if you can't hit me, right? Anyway, where's the breaking point? Is it just Epic content, or is there some level or AC number on Heroic where the mob's to-hit is high enough that a few extra points won't matter?

If it really is the case, then yes the feat slot for CE is much better spent elsewhere.