Help With a TWF either ranger tempest or fighter build; whats best?

[bobsicle]

I would like to try a TWF character, but I am unsure as to how to make it successful.
Never played a tank before (so a bit of a noob when it comes to char creation), but my main has picked up some pretty nice khopeshs (khopesh's,khopesh?) and fancy playing a decent TWF build with high dps. Ranger Tempest for self-healing and enhancements or a fighter? (any other classes too although would prefer to be pure or maybe 1 level of another class.)
And preferably a dwarf ;)

Thanks for your help!

[Nightmanis]

Rogue 20.
As a dwarf?
Twf
itwf
gtwf
Khopesh prof
improved critical slashing
toughness
Precision

Just do a basic build. If you've got access to a +3 dex tome, start with 16 dex and put 2 level ups into it to qualify for Epic Sneak Attack at level 21. Then at level 24 you can probably take power attack for when you have enough fort bypass. Put 12-14 points into Con, Shoot for 18 str, and try and keep INT at about a 12 starting. Remember that the biggest part of your damage is sneak attack, so don't get to hung up on dropping str by 1-2 points to bring up another stat.

Assuming you're a 2nd lifer, you could start with 18 16 14 12 8 8 and be fine. You'll have enough points for 9 different skills, to which you'll most likely want Disable, Search, Umd, Open lock, Balance is always a good one, Spot is good for questing, Tumble is always a lovely skill, and I personally like having Hide and Move Silently.

[Miow]

I would like to try a TWF character, but I am unsure as to how to make it successful.Never played a tank before (so a bit of a noob when it comes to char creation), but my main has picked up some pretty nice khopeshs (khopesh's,khopesh?) and fancy playing a decent TWF build with high dps. Ranger Tempest for self-healing and enhancements or a fighter? (any other classes too although would prefer to be pure or maybe 1 level of another class.)And preferably a dwarf ;) Thanks for your help!A 12rgr/7fighter/1 rog = twf tempest, kensai ,ranged,traps etc...if you want dorf i'd go with dwarven axes.

[Lauf]

A 12rgr/7fighter/1 rog = twf tempest, kensai ,ranged,traps etc...if you want dorf i'd go with dwarven axes.

that. QFT.
daxe and khopesh aren't all that different damage wise, and with the racial enhancements to axe damage, as well as the legendary dreadnaught +1 crit multiplier, you'd be better served sticking with d.axes

[count_spicoli]

Just for melee dps and nothing else helf kensai is tough to beat. If you want some ranged and evasion and trapping ability then some type of ranger fter rogue is good combo. But for straight dps helf kensai is off the hook. Human versatility dmg boost and 4 tiers of ftr haste with with the massive crit profile and getting to crit on 16 on those kopes is gravy. But if you have your heart set on dwarf I think DA's would be the way to go. you would crit on 18 with the xtra crit multiplier from dreadnought which would be nice. Would miss out on the free self healing you get from cleric or fvs dilly tho. Also the 10% doubletstrike from 20 of ftr is one of better capstones. good luck and remember all this is pre enhancement pass advice and subject to change.

[unbongwah]

A 12rgr/7fighter/1 rog = twf tempest, kensai ,ranged,traps etc...if you want dorf i'd go with dwarven axes.
I consider Kensei I to be pretty meh; unless you really need the extra feats, I prefer extra rog lvls for more sneak atk & skill pts, possibly mixed with barb or monk. E.g., rog 8, barb 6 / rog 2, rog 7 / monk 1. The first two also gain Imp Uncanny Dodge, which stacks with the Tempest pre-req feats.

[karl_k0ch]

There's an Enhancement Pass upcoming*, so the question what build is a good idea is going to be reevaluated within the next month.

The alpha versions of the Trees were made public in April, see here (http://ddowiki.com/page/Enhancement_Alpha), and have been developed further, hopefully.

Iirc, the racial bonuses for Daxes are going to get further enhanced, which makes them a pretty solid choice. I don't think that they are going to be better than Khopeshes in any given situation, but they're going to be a even more decent choice than now.

One of the interesting aspects of the new trees is that the class level requirements are significantly lowered. For instance, with 5 Fighter levels, you are able to get access to the whole kensai tree, with exception to the so-called core abilities (Power Surge, for example).

If they didn't change that, something along the lines of 13 Ranger/6 Figher/1 Rogue would be a nice option to get a good amount of self-healing (CMW at caster level 13 and full ranks in UMD) as well as a huge number of feats (free ranger feats, 4 fighter feats). If you can afford it featwise, also 15ran/4fgt/1rog might be an idea, because it allows you to use CSW at caster level 15.

The fact that the new enhancements mostly don't need as many class levels as they do now, leads me to thinking that there isn't a grave need for a lot of fighter levels (although the core abilities look like great options to increase your DPS). I'd rather enhance my self-healing options via the ranger spell list.

*: I am aware that the release date of the enhancement pass is soon, or one of the official variations of this term (http://my.lotro.com/user-34/2010/09/13/a-brief-history-of-time-according-to-sapience/). However, I feel that SOON is slowly approaching "within the next few months".

[Teh_Troll]

Post ENH-pass? Pure ranger.

[Inoukchuk]

Post ENH-pass? Pure ranger.

Per ENH-pass I had a build I loved. HOrc 12rng/8ftr (for the feats).
Max str, had I think 15 dex 14 con, all level ups in str:


Bow Str 1 rng
Exotic Wep Prof Khopesh 1 level
Rapid Shot 2 rng
Two Weapon Fighting 2 rng
Diehard 3 rng
Dodge 3 level
Precise Shot 4 rng
Many Shot 6 rng
Improved Two Weapon Fighting 6 rng
Mobility 6 level
Evasion 9 rng
Spring Attack 9 level
Improved Critical 10 ftr
Improved Precise Shot 12 rng
Greater Two Weapon Fighting 12 rng
Power Attack 12 level
Cleave 13 ftr
Weapon Focus 15 level
Weapon Specialization 16 ftr
Toughness 18 level
Great Cleave 18 ftr
Over size TWF 20 ftr
stunning blow 21
OC 24

Went fury with him. Could self heal decently (and twisted Cocoon almost all the time), had torc so unlimited SP, was always in top 4 in kill counts in raids (for what it's worth). Fury shot is beast, and adrenaline overload is also.

Don't listen to anyone that tells you to TWF with D-axes. Awful advice, awful choice. Due to the crit profile the damage is significantly behind at higher levels even with dwarf enahncements. You'd be better off with rapiers, but really you want Khopesh (at least until you can get/use Balizarde).

I'll probably TR back to this build after getting some more past lives and seeing what's out there with the ENH-pass.

[SaulGlimmerman]

With the new "trees" for rangers and Tempest build allows you to use DEX as a modifier to hit and damage. I was wondering whats the better dps. STR and improved critical slashing or DEX with improved critical piercing. (Nice add for when using bows)

[unbongwah]

I dunno if it's best DPS, but I suspect rgr 6 / monk 6 / ftr 8 will become popular (w/anyone who still prefers TWF to 2H): rgr provides 90% offhand proc, Manyshot, Ram's Might, some sneak atk & +75 positive Spellpower (for Rejuv Cocoon) from DWS; monk provides Shadow Veil, a bit more SA, stances (either Earth for PRR + crit bonus or Wind for doublestrike), 10K Stars if your WIS is high enough; ftr 8 is mostly for One w/Blade (centering w/any Focus weapon) and Kensei dmg bonuses.

[Teh_Troll]

I dunno if it's best DPS, but I suspect rgr 6 / monk 6 / ftr 8 will become popular (w/anyone who still prefers TWF to 2H): rgr provides 90% offhand proc, Manyshot, Ram's Might, some sneak atk & +75 positive Spellpower (for Rejuv Cocoon) from DWS; monk provides Shadow Veil, a bit more SA, stances (either Earth for PRR + crit bonus or Wind for doublestrike), 10K Stars if your WIS is high enough; ftr 8 is mostly for One w/Blade (centering w/any Focus weapon) and Kensei dmg bonuses.

I LR'd my tank fighter (since Turbine decided to make Stalwart intolerable) into 12/6/2 "monster" build and the damage is excellent. It's a completely "Hjeal meh!" build that I've only played in groups with healers but it gets the job done when you need a "bigger hammer."

Centered TWFing gets 100% off-hand attacks pretty easily. Heavy-blades for nightmares on trash and Khopeshes on red-names works very well. Judging from Sobrien beat-down times (NOT scientific I know) about 30% more damage than what my equally-geared rangers are putting out and 50% more woowoo from the nightmares.

I think going 8/6/6 might be a better overall build though. Can't get a stunning blow high enough to matter with this setup in the current EEs so that 4 points of STR from power-surge doesn't matter that much.

[SaulGlimmerman]

So you say STR is better dps than DEX?

[Teh_Troll]

With the new "trees" for rangers and Tempest build allows you to use DEX as a modifier to hit and damage. I was wondering whats the better dps. STR and improved critical slashing or DEX with improved critical piercing. (Nice add for when using bows)

No, it's not. There was a lot of talk about this early on when Dex-to-damage was giving 100% to the off-hand but that isn't the case any more.

[Teh_Troll]

So you say STR is better dps than DEX?

I think so, I'm not sure. Can and Elf get more DEX than a human can get STR? That's not a hypothetical question as I haven't bothered to map it out.

As mentioned above, when DEX was giving 100% off-hand damage it was a no-brainer. Now? not so much.

[Soulfurnace]

I think so, I'm not sure. Can and Elf get more DEX than a human can get STR? That's not a hypothetical question as I haven't bothered to map it out.

As mentioned above, when DEX was giving 100% off-hand damage it was a no-brainer. Now? not so much.
From what I've seen on similar threads..
Str will always be higher than dex. (even on a halfling)
So, str is more damage. However, reflex from dex tends to make it worth it, if using finesse weapons. (at least imo)

[unbongwah]

So you say STR is better dps than DEX?
The main problem with DEX builds is there are way more stacking STR bonuses than DEX (or CHA or CON if you were thinking of PDK or dwarf): e.g., Ram's Might, Primal Scream, Titan's Grip. So even when you factor in race-n-class bonuses to DEX, STR builds still pull ahead. Also for TWF builds, khopeshes are still the best weapon choice, when all else is the same.

Plus rangers don't get a way of adding DEX instead of STR to ranged dmg, which seems bizarre given the renewed emphasis on DEX for melee dmg (e.g., Imp Weap Finesse, Tempest). Elves do, but it costs 22-24 APs to pick up Grace + Skill, which really limits your options for the class trees.

I still love my gimpy ol' DEX builds, which are somewhat less gimpy now that there are more ways of adding DEX to dmg. But they don't yet equal - much less surpass - what a good STR build puts out.

[PainStealer]

I think going 8/6/6 might be a better overall build though. Can't get a stunning blow high enough to matter with this setup in the current EEs so that 4 points of STR from power-surge doesn't matter that much.

I beg to differ. Ive been stunning things with my Abomination https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422617-The-Abomination in EE content. Admittedly it works best if I soften the mob with an improved sunder first. Right now Im still gearing her and am level 24. Once I slot +10 Str and Insight 3 Str ( 5 more Str ) and get the Tactics ED feat it will work even better. Admittedly I made my Abomination a dwarf and I have 3 fighter Past Lives to help out as well.

[Nodoze]

I dunno if it's best DPS, but I suspect rgr 6 / monk 6 / ftr 8 will become popular (w/anyone who still prefers TWF to 2H): rgr provides 90% offhand proc, Manyshot, Ram's Might, some sneak atk & +75 positive Spellpower (for Rejuv Cocoon) from DWS; monk provides Shadow Veil, a bit more SA, stances (either Earth for PRR + crit bonus or Wind for doublestrike), 10K Stars if your WIS is high enough; ftr 8 is mostly for One w/Blade (centering w/any Focus weapon) and Kensei dmg bonuses.If the F8/R6/M6 goes for Shadow Veil and thus has to take the prerequisite Ninja Training II which gives "When centered, add DEX modifier to damage with piercing and slashing weapons. DEX % chance for extra shuriken."

I thought I read on another thread that there is a bug that if you take Shadow Veil (& thus take the pre-req Ninja Training II) that your Dex to-damage modifier will over-ride your Strength-to-damage modifier even when Strength is higher.

Is this confirmed and doesn't this bork any slashing/piercing builds (unlike the abomination which is bludgeon) ?

[Soulfurnace]

I thought I read on another thread that there is a bug that if you take Shadow Veil (& thus take the pre-req Ninja Training II) that your Dex to-damage modifier will over-ride your Strength-to-damage modifier even when Strength is higher.

Is this confirmed and doesn't this bork any slashing/piercing builds (unlike the abomination which is bludgeon) ?
Only on bows. It overrides bow strength, not anything else from my testing.

[Nodoze]

Only on bows. It overrides bow strength, not anything else from my testing.That certainly blows for Fury-Many Shots but is better than it could be.

[PainStealer]

That certainly blows for Fury-Many Shots but is better than it could be.

Yeah Fury Shot isnt so neat with dex to damage on my bow. I might drop shadowveil until they fix that and pick up more devotion from sniper to make my cocoon better.

[Teh_Troll]

I beg to differ. Ive been stunning things with my Abomination https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422617-The-Abomination in EE content. Admittedly it works best if I soften the mob with an improved sunder first. Right now Im still gearing her and am level 24. Once I slot +10 Str and Insight 3 Str ( 5 more Str ) and get the Tactics ED feat it will work even better. Admittedly I made my Abomination a dwarf and I have 3 fighter Past Lives to help out as well.

What's your STR and DC because regarding any actual hard-to-kill opponents I don't believe you.

[Nodoze]

Yeah Fury Shot isnt so neat with dex to damage on my bow. I might drop shadowveil until they fix that and pick up more devotion from sniper to make my cocoon better.Hard choices. I suspect if you drop Zen Archery you will auto-drop out of stance when you equip a bow for Many-Shot so that you get the strength bonus but then you lose the stance bonuses... Not sure how hard it would be to get back into stance for Melee auto-off with manual back on may be better for many folk instead of turning it off and then back on every time.

[Teh_Troll]

Hard choices. I suspect if you drop Zen Archery you will auto-drop out of stance when you equip a bow for Many-Shot so that you get the strength bonus but then you lose the stance bonuses... Not sure how hard it would be to get back into stance for Melee auto-off with manual back on may be better for many folk instead of turning it off and then back on every time.

I don't find it s big deal, I don't have zen archery on my kensai either, it's not that tough to go back into stance after switching back to melee weapons.